Author Topic: The Bread Thread  (Read 107977 times)

Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #650 on: 15 March, 2021, 11:14:49 pm »
Tragic hipster bread made using the stretchy-fold method and baked on my of-so-heavy lump of mild steel. Very very pleased with this one.

What's the consensus on the benefits of the Frenchy stretchy-fold method of kneading versus the more conventional heal of hand/knuckle roll fold and turn approach?
Most of the stuff I say is true because I saw it in a dream and I don't have the presence of mind to make up lies when I'm asleep.   Bryan Andreas

Gattopardo

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Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #651 on: 20 March, 2021, 03:59:16 pm »
So does the tinned yeast live in the fridge even when upopened?

Have I mentioned my banneton?



Gattopardo

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Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #652 on: 20 March, 2021, 04:11:18 pm »
Today is my bread mix of a few flours (pan cereales, allison seeded flour and pan campagne)

Some in the heavily floured and semolina banneton, which will be baked on a pizza stone


Dough in a kenwood stainless steel bowl to be baked in a le creuset enamel coated casserole dish.


Tim Hall

  • Victoria is my queen
Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #653 on: 20 March, 2021, 04:17:12 pm »
Tragic hipster bread made using the stretchy-fold method and baked on my of-so-heavy lump of mild steel. Very very pleased with this one.

What's the consensus on the benefits of the Frenchy stretchy-fold method of kneading versus the more conventional heal of hand/knuckle roll fold and turn approach?
I'm getting much better results*  doing stretchy fold than I was doing kneading. There's strange time dilation thing that seems to happen during kneading, when 10 minutes last for hours. Currently I'm using the ever so cheerful Bake With Jack's recipe and method. However as this has several changes compared to my previous recipe, I'm not sure whether it's the change to stretchy/fold or some other change (overmight fridge rest for example), or a combination of these that is responsible.

* not today. The bread stuck slightly to the peel as I shimmied it into the oven, so it's a bit of an odd shape.
There are two ways you can get exercise out of a bicycle: you can
"overhaul" it, or you can ride it.  (Jerome K Jerome)

Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #654 on: 20 March, 2021, 04:29:49 pm »
So does the tinned yeast live in the fridge even when upopened?

Check the packaging, but all the ones I've ever used just say to keep in the fridge once opened, which works for me.

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #655 on: 08 May, 2021, 12:54:31 pm »
I seem to have become a disciple of Ken Forkish.
His book "Flour Water Salt Yeast" is not so much a recipe book, more a course in bread-making.
This is my fourth effort, and they have all worked well.

This is an overnight bulk-fermented 78% hydrated loaf.
The slow ferment brings out a lot of flavour.
This is a much wetter dough than I've previously worked with.

The dough is autolysed, meaning the water is absorbed into the flour 30 mins before adding the salt and yeast.
This dough is a 'straight' dough, using dried yeast: all of 0.4g of it!
I have bought a drug-dealer milligram scales to measure this!

The mixing is all the stretch-and-fold method.
After the mixing, this dough has 3 foldings within the first 2 hours of the bulk ferment, to develop the structure.
Next morning, the dough is then shaped and dragged, tightening it into a ball before placing it in a Banneton for the final proof of just over an hour.
The dough is tipped out of the Banneton, so it's now seam-side up. This is how it will be baked.
It's scooped up and placed in the pre-heated Dutch Oven, and baked for 30 mins with the lid on, then a further 20 mins with the lid off.


Bread by Ron Lowe, on Flickr


Bread by Ron Lowe, on Flickr

Mrs Pingu

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Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #656 on: 08 May, 2021, 02:21:29 pm »
Very nice. You've not tried making bread in that pizza oven of yours yet?
I'm too chicken to try the Dutch oven for fear of burning myself on it. Maybe I could do it upside down using the pizza steel as a base and the pan as a cloche.

Not that I have been doing much fancy breadmaking due to DIY getting in the way.  :-\
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #657 on: 08 May, 2021, 03:04:57 pm »
The pizza oven is too hot and temperature un-controlled for a loaf, I think.
It needs to be a modest 245 degC and stable for about 45 minutes for a loaf.

For pizza, it runs with a center floor temperature of 350 - 380 degrees with a fair temperature gradient front to back.
The temperature is not so critical as you can see the pizza, and rotate it and move it around as required.
It only needs to be temperature stable-ish for a few minutes.

But the entire purpose of this exercise is to learn to make decent dough for pizza bases.
The 'basic' dough I've been using up to now is ok, but I'm wanting to do something better.

So yes, a proper overnight fermented pizza dough is very much on the cards.
Was going to be today, but the weather's too carp.

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #658 on: 10 May, 2021, 08:30:20 pm »
And so it was that I made pizza with proper dough.
This is a 70% hydrated overnight bulk fermented dough, the 1kg dough divided into 5 balls then shaped first thing in the morning, then proofed for about 10 hours in the fridge till early evening when they were cooked.
The dough is hand-stretched directly from the fridge for easier handling.

This is a world away from the 'basic' dough you will find in most books, which I've been using up till now.
The dough is soft and gassy. You must handle it with care, it cannot be rolled or man-handled because that will de-gas it.
Gentle hand-stretching is both necessary and easy: the dough lends itself to this.

Cooked on a gently falling oven with a base temperature of 350 - 380 degrees, goodness only knows what air temperature.

The next dough will be a biga pre-ferment, I think.


Pizza by Ron Lowe, on Flickr


Pizza by Ron Lowe, on Flickr


Pizza by Ron Lowe, on Flickr

Mrs Pingu

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Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #659 on: 10 May, 2021, 08:52:31 pm »
But how does it taste?
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #660 on: 10 May, 2021, 10:24:06 pm »
Oh, it's a world away from the simple doughs I've used before.
A step change; as good as I've had anywhere.
The long ferment gives the dough a great flavour.
Which I could not have said before.

The wood-fired oven is only one part of the equation.
Getting the dough right is the second.

And I don't think we're done here.
There's more dough-fettling to be done!

Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #661 on: 11 May, 2021, 06:08:41 am »
I use fresh yeast, and mix up a slurry using 50% of the flour. Leave for 45 minutes. Then add rest of flour (including 10% semolina flour), Rise for an hour or so. Then shape into balls and prove for about 6 hours. Beautiful yeasty flavour.

I have tried using my sourdough, but too much faff vs advantage.  Be interested to continue to hear of your experiments though. 

quixoticgeek

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Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #662 on: 13 May, 2021, 08:45:10 pm »



Had left over dough from making pizza...

J
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Beer, bikes, and backpacking
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Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #663 on: 14 May, 2021, 09:41:36 am »
I've switched this week to using my sourdough pizza recipe for bread as well as it's coming out better than the bread recipe I was using.
Miles cycled 2014 = 3551.5 (Target 7300 :()
Miles cycled 2013 = 6141.4
Miles cycled 2012 = 4038.1

Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #664 on: 14 May, 2021, 07:14:00 pm »
I've switched this week to using my sourdough pizza recipe for bread as well as it's coming out better than the bread recipe I was using.

To save trawling to see if it's already here (lazy I know) can you (re)post please?

Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #665 on: 14 May, 2021, 08:15:36 pm »
Sure. I don't think I posted it so you've saved yourself a trawl.

Huh, I've just looked up the recipe to check something and I'm not even following the recipe I thought I was. Anyway, whatever I'm doing works.

227g sourdough starter
113g water
298g plain flour
A teaspoon or so of salt - I don't really measure just do a "so long" pour from the salt container.

And then for pizza or savoury bread I do a good glug of garlic olive oil and a decent shake (a tablespoon or two) of Italian seasoning. For bread that's likely to have choc spread or such I omit the seasoning and use plain veggie oil instead.

What I normally do is mix it up the evening before pizza/bread. Give it a couple minutes in the stand mixer. Sometimes it comes together into a nice ball of dough and other times it tends to stick to the bowl. I haven't yet worked out what I'm doing differently.

Pop some clingfilm on the top of the bowl and into the fridge overnight. Then either in the morning (for bread for lunch) or at about 3pm (for pizzas at ~6/7pm) it comes out of the fridge and sits next to the armchair by the radiator.

Oven on to about 230° C and whilst it's heating I turn the dough out onto a baking sheet with baking paper on it. Normally needs a bit of help out of the bowl whilst trying not to squish the air bubbles out too much.

For bread I just tease it into a vaguely loaf shape and cut a couple slashs (which still don't manage to stop it splitting elsewhere) and for pizza I split the dough into two and each half gets a tray. I press/push/massage it out into a ovally blob. Tends to stick to the paper so I don't try lifting and stretching.

Bread gets 20 minutes on the tray and then comes off the tray onto the bare oven rack for a further ten. Then onto a cooling rack for as long as we can manage before tucking in.

Pizzas get all the toppings popped on and then it varies but normally about 7-8 minutes before they get swapped from top shelf to middle and vice versa. And another 7-8 minutes. Depends a bit on how many toppings and vagaries of the dough.

Miles cycled 2014 = 3551.5 (Target 7300 :()
Miles cycled 2013 = 6141.4
Miles cycled 2012 = 4038.1

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #666 on: 15 May, 2021, 09:11:40 pm »
So the pizza dough experiments continue.
Tonight's dough is a poolish pre-ferment recipe, again from the Ken Forkish book 'Flour Water Salt Yeast'.

A poolish is where you take around 50% of the flour, add the same weight of water to make a 100% hydrated partial dough ( which is pretty much liquid ), add the yeast, and let it ferment overnight.
The following morning, the poolish will have doubled or tripled in size, and will be like a hideous living gloop, frothing and bubbling like a creature from the deep.

The final dough mix is then made, with the remaining flour and the salt, and the remaining water added to make up the hydration you want.  I went with 72%, because 75% can be tricksy to handle when hand-stretching.  I might go to 75% next time.

The poolish is poured into the bowl with the remaining flour etc, and worked into a mix.  It's then left to bulk ferment for around 6 hours, till late afternoon.  Plenty of time to go for a bike ride.
Then, it's divided into 5, shaped, and left in the fridge to retard for a couple of hours before hand-stretching and cooking.

It's amazing that 0.4g of yeast can be used to leaven 1kg of dough, enough for 5 pizzas!

It's probably the best flavoured pizza dough I've done to date.


Freshly mixed poolish ready for overnight ferment by Ron Lowe, on Flickr


Fire in the Hole! by Ron Lowe, on Flickr


Poolish pizza by Ron Lowe, on Flickr

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
The Bread Thread
« Reply #667 on: 02 June, 2021, 05:07:44 pm »
Bit of a late response but that pizza looks fantastic!

Also reminds me that Aldi’s special this week is a home-build bread oven kit (£500). Tempted but I could probably design my own for that price.

Anyway, I came here to talk about yeast. Specifically, Borwick’s yeast, as sold in M&S. My son bought a couple of packs last week. 5x 6g sachets per pack I made a couple of loaves using it, but only one sachet for the double quantity (about 900g flour, iirc) because I didn’t want it to ferment too quickly. And I left out to prove on top of the fridge, rather than in the proving drawer...

Within an hour it had somewhat more than doubled in size...
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Tim Hall

  • Victoria is my queen
Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #668 on: 07 June, 2021, 09:51:36 pm »
Having found a winning formula (for me), obviously I decided to dick around with it.

I'm using the no kneading but lots of folding technique from Bake With Jack. Baking is in a fan oven with a tray of boiling water in the bottom, bread on a thick steel plate. Start at 230C fan for 15 minutes, down to 190C fan for 20-25 minutes. Good results, open crumb.

Things that could do with improvement are the uneven size, end to end (slightly bigger at the fan end of the oven) and unlike Noddy's mate, my loaf has a small ear.

Having had some success when baking pork pies in a conventionally heated, rather than fan assisted, oven, I tried my last loaf like that. Slightly higher temperature (240C) than before for the first 15 minutes then 190. Looks good-ish but it's slightly more compact loaf - smaller bubbles. Ear development is pretty non existent as it didn't really split that much.

Comments?
There are two ways you can get exercise out of a bicycle: you can
"overhaul" it, or you can ride it.  (Jerome K Jerome)

Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #669 on: 27 June, 2021, 12:57:20 pm »
Have attempted butteries.

Can certainly see layers, has a raodkill croissent look.

Just need to de grease base of oven :-\

They do taste good

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #670 on: 08 July, 2021, 06:55:54 pm »
Have attempted butteries.

Can certainly see layers, has a raodkill croissent look.

Just need to de grease base of oven :-\

They do taste good

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxdIZ9IeRuk

Tim Hall

  • Victoria is my queen
Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #671 on: 27 July, 2021, 01:02:00 pm »
The last two sourdough loaves I've baked have been misshapen, spread out affairs. 
It's been a lot warmer of late, so I've reduced the proving time, by about half an hour from five to four and a half. Other than that no change from the Bake With Jack procedure and hydration.  Before these two failures, I'd had good shaped loaves on the reduced proving time regime.

It's looks to me like the dough lacks "structure". Can over proving cause this?

There are two ways you can get exercise out of a bicycle: you can
"overhaul" it, or you can ride it.  (Jerome K Jerome)

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #672 on: 27 July, 2021, 01:45:16 pm »
It's looks to me like the dough lacks "structure". Can over proving cause this?

Yes, very much so. If you want to slow it down, try reducing how much starter you use, and/or put it in the fridge to prove. Or just keep an eye on it and bake it "when it's ready", rather than after a set time.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #673 on: 15 November, 2021, 12:43:01 am »
Made a "use up some dregs of bags of flour" loaf for dunking in a "use up some veg" soup, and was pleased with the way it was proving, having been idly improvising the quantities. Hadn't got a peel to hand (bits of wood wander off and get used for other things), so sat it on some parchment on a baking sheet, then slid it off onto the heated stone in the oven, which I've done hundreds of times. Only this time, it sailed slowly, gracefully, as if on a cushion of air (for 't'was, I s'pose) off the back of the shelf, down the back of the oven, into the flames.

Having sworn loudly and inventively, I yanked out the heated pan from the base of the oven, dragged the dough out and lobbed it onto the stone, replaced the pan and emptied the kettle onto it, closed the door, swore a lot more and threw my oven gloves at a sack of spuds on the other side of the kitchen.

Other than showing signs of having been dragged through the really-should-clean-that-up bits of roast dinner spatter on the floor of the oven, it came out brilliantly.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, but bread's chuffing magic.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #674 on: 19 November, 2021, 08:17:58 pm »
I had cheese on toast for dinner tonight. It was truly marvellous.

Don't know why it turned out quite so well - I don't think I did anything different to usual, no special recipe or ingredients, but the dough was beautifully well developed, strong and stretchy but ever so soft and silky too, and it came out of the oven perfectly light and crisp, and just chewy enough to provide a pleasing amount of tooth-resistance.

You'll have to take my word for it though, because I scoffed the lot before even thinking about taking pictures. Old school.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."