999 operators cannot handle grid references

[clarion]

An awful lot of 999 calls are made from the home.  People tend to know their own postcode, although older people less so.

That doesn't mean that the postcode should be insisted on.  Especially when it is an RTC or any incident away from habitation.  In fact, it's a pretty crap default for any outdoor incidents.

[Biggsy]

Of the 6m 999 calls per year, only a small proportion would be from callers knowing a grid reference, yet quite a lot of examples have been found of inadequate response from just one ramblers organisation.

From the info above we see that not all Trusts, at the time of the research, were using the same CAD system, and some needed upgrading in order to use grid references.

I just hope that's out of date and also that all the meatware is now doing what it's been trained to do.

[hellymedic]

As I posted upthread, most people know only a couple of complete postcodes.
The meatware *must* be capable of dealing intelligently with other sorts of information.

'The top of Ben Nevis'
'The south-east corner of the A598/A406 junction'
'Chester Road/Outer Circle, Regents Park'

Should not need postcodes. There is enough other information.

[pcolbeck]

Outside London no one knows post codes apart from their home or work. They don't put them on street signs like they do in London and no one refers to parts of a city by the post code.

[hellymedic]

Home callers will know their postcode but would you know mine if I collapsed while you were visiting?
Actually the place is such a tip, you could find out by going through my paper recycling or some of the piles of paperwork that adorn the place but it is unlikely to be at the top of the things in your mind.

Airway
Breathing
Circulation
Disability
Exposure
Postcode?!?!

Time to rewrite First Aid manuals!

Can anyone give a postcode for their nearest Tube station?

[Regulator]

....
Ramblers | Home | Background information :


Our research has shown that each Ambulance Trust operates its own set of procedures. So one Trust may act in a different way to another. Generally it seems that most Trusts do train staff on how to understand a grid reference, but that this training is not followed up. Or it may also be that the computer system used by the staff cannot handle the input of grid references. Below we have detailed responses from Trusts who have responded to our call for information on this issue:

North West Ambulance Service

[The computer software we use] provides the call handler with the ability to Northing and Easting references, and also longitude and latitude. If a caller explains that they are walking in rural areas and gave a grid reference this information can be entered into the system and the position plotted on the mapping system.

The training that newly qualified Emergency Medical Dispatch Operators recieve during their initial training course includes self learning materials downloaded from the Ordnance Survey website.

North East Ambulance Service

The NEAS Call Handler can input a grid reference using alphabetical numerical OS System for example NZ 123 456.

NEAS can also input a grid reference without the alphabet pre-fix.

All Contact Centre call taking staff receive training in this format on their initial training course. We also have a reference sheet on each...desk.

South Western Ambulance Service

Thank you for your letter, my apologies for the lateness in this reply which was due to discussions that your letter generated with our Freatures team and technology suppilers.

I am pleased to be able to advise that the system [we use] can be updated in order to accept such information and that I have approved the purchase and upgrade at the cost of £1800. The facility should be up and running in three months time.

Great Western Ambulance Service

I have discussed your concerns...and I can confirm that [we] do train the Emergency Medical Dispathcers (EMD) in the following areas;

•Grid references - Easting and Northing, Latitude and Longitude, OS Map references
Each EMD undertakes individual training, supported by our EMD Locate and Verify training manual.

South East Coast Ambulance Service

The Emergency Dispatch Centres in Surrey and Kent use a new Computer Aided Dispatch system which has recentally been installed. On this new system, a grid reference can be entered directly into the system which then translates it to a location. The new system will be implimated in the Sussex EDC shortly.

West Midlands Ambulance Service

The grid reference information entered [when provided by the caller] will change to display Easting's and Northing's and plot the location on the computer mapping system and verify the location accurate to a range of approximately 50 meters.

The control room staff undertake a full training programme that meets all the requirements of the Trust.

Yorkshire Ambulance Service

The computer aided dispatch system (CAD 3) that we use in both our 999 centres allows any incident to be overridden with either coordinates which are entered as OS 12 figure or from the Geographical information system (GIS) Mapping which then updates CAD 3 with the coordinates from the location chosen on map.

So in fact, apart from one service, all the services above confirmed that their systems could cope with grid references and staff were trained.

I happen to know that both the London Ambulance Service and East of England Ambulance Service CADs can accept grid references and the staff are trained to take and enter them.  In fact, IIRC, the CfH compliance requirements are that all CAD systems must be able accept grid references and translate post-codes to grid references.

I'm surprised at the response from South West Ambulance Service and might check it out when I'm next in work.  The South West has an air ambulance and they get their directions, from the CAD room as grid co-ordinates.  So even if a post code had been given, the system would have to translate it into a grid reference in order for it to be transmitted to the air ambulance.

[RJ]

I work with (lists of) grid references a lot - and am surprised how often people who should know better get them wrong: wrong 100km square letters, and eastings and northings transposed are both quite common  - and would be less than helpful to someone trying to locate the spot actually meant.

Just an observation - carry on!!

[Biggsy]

Sussex also didn't cope with grid references at the time the info was gathered.

South East Coast Ambulance Service

The Emergency Dispatch Centres in Surrey and Kent use a new Computer Aided Dispatch system which has recentally been installed. On this new system, a grid reference can be entered directly into the system which then translates it to a location. The new system will be implimated in the Sussex EDC shortly.

Yes I'm glad nearly all the systems (hopefully all now) can deal with grid refs.  Let's just hope the operators are operating properly now as well.

[hellymedic]

Outside London no one knows post codes apart from their home or work. They don't put them on street signs like they do in London and no one refers to parts of a city by the post code.

Yebut at least grid references adorn the tops of Dorset finger posts...

[Diver300]

My experience, admittedly a few years ago, was that the emergency operator insisted on road names, not numbers.

I found this odd and frustrating, as the accident was where the A444 crossed the B585. All the road signs have those numbers. Both roads have several names along their length. As most of the road names are the name of the town or village that the road is heading to, other roads in the area have the same name.

[Zipperhead]

I hope nobody ever needs to call an ambulance to my office and uses the postcode - if you look up the postcode it points to somewhere several miles away.

[SlowCoach]

I hope nobody ever needs to call an ambulance to my office and uses the postcode - if you look up the postcode it points to somewhere several miles away.

We have exactly this problem at work. The single postcode refers to a complex site which covers about half a square mile in area which can have several thousand people on it at a time (a university campus).  If put into a GPS system it directs you to an entrance which was closed two years ago. It's part of our emergency plan that, whenever an ambulance is called - a runner is despatched to the closed gate the ambulance will most likely arrive at so they can be directed to the correct point. It's only ever a problem with the ambulance service - fire crews are local and work on local knowledge - building names are good for them.

[Kathy]

To provide some anecdotal balance to all the anecdata upthread, each time I have had to dial 999 in the past ten years, I have never been asked for a postcode. Operators have always been happy with "The ditch on the sharp bend after the crossroads on the A371 between Cary and the A303", or "The recycling bins next to the railway, a quarter of a mile south of Eynsford on the A225". Actually, the latter was clever: the operator asked me to list precisely which combination of recycling bins (one clothing, one shoes, two paper) so that she could confirm the location. Maybe I've just been lucky, or maybe the postcode issue only affects a few specific areas.

Now, the AA on the other hand...

[frankly frankie]

Sometime after I converted my brain from Imperial to Metric, I also converted from OS grid refs (which Google Maps can't handle) to Lat/Longitudes (which it can).

[Biggsy]

The funny thing is, shortly before this news came out, I was thinking of posting to the forum to ask what units I should set my Edge to.

I suppose British grid reference is the best if the emergency services are supposed to deal with it.

[Bledlow]

I had a massive puncture in the rear tyre of my Kawasaki years ago. I gave the RAC a six figure grid ref.
"What's the street name?"
"Middle of a national park"
Etc....

Had a similar experience when calling the AA once. Asked for the street name. I said "None that I know: it's a country road". The operator asked for the road number, & got quite insistent that it must have one when I told her it was a yellow road on my OS map, i.e. didn't have a number. When I tried to give her the grid reference, she said "Our system doesn't recognise those references". GRRR!

We eventually settled on directions from the nearest location she could recognise. Luckily, that was quite simple.

But like Kathy, when I last had to call 999, the operator was perfectly happy with "On a bridleway about half a mile SE of Nuffield". I offered a grid ref, but was told it wasn't needed. We were told to stand in the open (once it was established we weren't deep in woods) & wave at the helicopter. Several people in red, blue, fluorescent yellow etc jackets standing in a field waving their arms make a good landmark.    We were spotted quickly. This was ten years ago, though. I don't know what would happen if one called from a South Oxfordshire field now.

The crashed person was back on her bike in 5 months, which ain't bad for broken vertebrae.

[TimO]

... We were told to stand in the open (once it was established we weren't deep in woods) & wave at the helicopter. Several people in red, blue, fluorescent yellow etc jackets standing in a field waving their arms make a good landmark. ...

I seemed to recall hearing, years back, that waving at a helicopter to indicate that this is where the problem is, isn't such a good idea, since the world and their dog will wave at a passing helicopter.

I remember hearing somewhere that both arms should be held up in a "V" shape for "Victim", although Wikipedia has an entry for Mountain Rescue distress signals, which suggests a similar stance meaning "Y" for "Yes (I need help)".

[Biggsy]

I've never waved at a helecopter.  I have seen numerous real helicopter rescues (on TV) where people waving has alerted the crew to a victim.

[Kim]

I seemed to recall hearing, years back, that waving at a helicopter to indicate that this is where the problem is, isn't such a good idea, since the world and their dog will wave at a passing helicopter.

Crossing the threads briefly, I wonder if fixed-wing pilots refer to helicopters as "the dark side"?

[Cudzoziemiec]

I've never had to call an ambulance, and the only person I know who has, is my f-i-l in rural Poland, which provides another bit of anecdata about the uselessness of various location-reference systems. The post code there refers to the whole of the nearby small town. The incident happened in a village a few miles away, and on the edge of that village. There are no street names - the postal address uses the village name plus a house number. Strictly speaking, the village name for this part of the village uses a suffix, but no one ever refers to it that way in practice. Nobody in the village knows any house number apart from their own, either, and because the whole village is numbered in one continuous sequence, and from time to time new plots get developed, they aren't necessarily sequential. None of the houses actually have a number displayed, either. Several times I've witnessed delivery drivers ask people who've spent their whole life in the village,
"Where's number 123?"
"I haven't a clue. Who lives there?"
"Szczygiel."
"Oh, that's the white house with the green roof and the blue door, next-to-last before the forest."
But the ambulance, of course, comes from town and doesn't know the locals. Presumably there is a grid reference system, but I've no idea what it is (in fact, AFAIR local maps only have lat and long marked - but in any case, people in the village won't use those, because they have no need to).

Add to this a paucity of surfaced roads, and perhaps it's no surprise that when the neighbour had a heart attack, the ambulance took thirty minutes to travel 7km. By which time the poor man was dead.

[peterc]

last time someone called an ambulance for me, (after a skating incedent) I was sat in Hyde park near Hyde park corner (Just here in fact). Very easy to describe, but few buildings close by, and those that were were unlikely to answer the door to a "scuse me what is the postcode please?"

Took quiet a while to arrive, in the mean time we had 1 Police car drive up. Would have done better with a cab...

[Wendy]

I've never waved at a helecopter.  I have seen numerous real helicopter rescues (on TV) where people waving has alerted the crew to a victim.

Lots of people wave at flying machines IME.  Gliders, paragliders, and light aircraft.  I've not flown in a helicopter.

[Biggsy]

Yeah people wave at aircraft, but if you're doing a rescue and see some people not waving and some people waving, you'll be attracted to those waving, especially if they're waving vigarously and continuously.

Making a "V" or "Y" shape may be good, but might not get you noticed in the first place, and also may be difficult if you've broken a limb.

[SlowCoach]

I've flown in the RAF Search and Rescue Sea Kings a few times in the past (I used to be a member of a fell rescue team when I was climbing regularly and lived in an appropriate area). The crews tend to scour the area anyway and don't take too much notice of whether or not people are waving. The most reliable indication is not to wave, but to stand with outstretched arms in a Y. This indicates that you are not just waving at the aircraft for fun, but you might just want their assistance. Having said that - if you don't need assistance - it always helps not to wave. if you are wanting help - remove your hat, put your map and spare clothing away, secure everything and get the main party to huddle together - kneeling - with only one person standing as marker. If you are marker - be prepared to be blown over - the down draught from several tons of aircraft hovering 30 foot over your head is significant - I've known rucsacs be blown over cliff edges from the wind. The crews, quite understandably, don't appreciate waterproof jackets etc. being sucked through engine intakes

Don't be too disheartened if the aircraft appears to fly away and then returns a few times. Continue to wait it out. Before attempting a landing the crew will  fly around to suss out all the potential hazards before landing and agree a series of emergency scenarios should things go wrong (which way do we bale if the engine decides to fail at this critical point... this sort of thing). They will probably agree up to 10 possible plans before attempting a landing or lower.

Once you are in the aircraft - sit in the seat you are directed to, belt up and sit on your hands. If its a Sea King - that lovely horizontal bar below the main door isn't a step - its an aerial and will snap when you stand on it. We used to get someone to kneel on the ground below the door and everyone else uses them as a step to get in. Whatever happens - don't touch anything stripy. You'll see striped panels and handles all over. They are emergency releases and a bit of the aircraft will fall off if you pull them. its very tempting to touch - there are stripes wherever you look. These handles are magnetic/irresistible. That's why I sit on my hands

[Euan Uzami]

I don't know why they would think that a postcode is even enough, because a postcode doesn't translate to a single point anyway. It can span a whole neighbourhood.