999 operators cannot handle grid references

[TimO]

... Whatever happens - don't touch anything stripy. You'll see striped panels and handles all over. They are emergency releases and a bit of the aircraft will fall off if you pull them. its very tempting to touch - there are stripes wherever you look. These handles are magnetic/irresistible. ...

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/tFXYxVrMo8s&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/tFXYxVrMo8s&rel=1</a>

You are Father Dougal, and ICMFP.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I've flown in the RAF Search and Rescue Sea Kings a few times in the past (I used to be a member of a fell rescue team when I was climbing regularly and lived in an appropriate area). The crews tend to scour the area anyway and don't take too much notice of whether or not people are waving. The most reliable indication is not to wave, but to stand with outstretched arms in a Y. This indicates that you are not just waving at the aircraft for fun, but you might just want their assistance. Having said that - if you don't need assistance - it always helps not to wave. if you are wanting help - remove your hat, put your map and spare clothing away, secure everything and get the main party to huddle together - kneeling - with only one person standing as marker. If you are marker - be prepared to be blown over - the down draught from several tons of aircraft hovering 30 foot over your head is significant - I've known rucsacs be blown over cliff edges from the wind. The crews, quite understandably, don't appreciate waterproof jackets etc. being sucked through engine intakes

Don't be too disheartened if the aircraft appears to fly away and then returns a few times. Continue to wait it out. Before attempting a landing the crew will  fly around to suss out all the potential hazards before landing and agree a series of emergency scenarios should things go wrong (which way do we bale if the engine decides to fail at this critical point... this sort of thing). They will probably agree up to 10 possible plans before attempting a landing or lower.

Once you are in the aircraft - sit in the seat you are directed to, belt up and sit on your hands. If its a Sea King - that lovely horizontal bar below the main door isn't a step - its an aerial and will snap when you stand on it. We used to get someone to kneel on the ground below the door and everyone else uses them as a step to get in. Whatever happens - don't touch anything stripy. You'll see striped panels and handles all over. They are emergency releases and a bit of the aircraft will fall off if you pull them. its very tempting to touch - there are stripes wherever you look. These handles are magnetic/irresistible. That's why I sit on my hands

That's useful and interesting, but the last paragraph smells of design failure. Why put an aerial where people will think it is a step? Why the stripy handles? It may all make sense where the only people in the aircraft are trained professionals, but for one that's going to carry people who aren't, you'd think such critical bits could be moved or redesigned. Of course, I know nothing about aircraft design, so there may be very good reasons why those items have to be there or have to be stripy.

[SlowCoach]

The point is that these aircraft are designed only to be used by trained crews - not the general public. The crews tend to refer to other people on the aircraft as "live cargo" (if they are being polite). We used to have to have special training before they would routinely transport us. Some of the crews prefer their passengers to be strapped on a stretcher - even if there is nothing wrong with you. That way you can't interfere. Certainly, anyone in the aircraft who is known not to be trained will be watched very closely (discreetly maybe, but closely). I've known someone who was fidgeting too much who found themselves straitjacketed by the crew with a set of Cas straps (2" wide velcro and webbing straps - supersticky and very strong)

[clarion]

The aerial I think is a much later addition to what is quite an old design, so a sort of bodge if you like...

[LEE]

The aerial I think is a much later addition to what is quite an old design, so a sort of bodge if you like...

Sounds like

"Where shall we put this Aerial that looks like a bit like a step, but will be damaged if someone steps on it?"

"Put it just under the main door, you know, in the same place a usefully located step would be.  When you've done that, can you pour that weed killer into this Coke can and put it in the fridge so nobody accidentally drinks it?"

[Cudzoziemiec]

I presume the aircraft used by rescue crews are adaptations of what are intended as military designs. It's that adaptation for the live cargo that seems to be lacking. But as I say, maybe it's just too difficult or expensive - I wouldn't know.

[pcolbeck]

Aern't the air sea rescue Seakings just full millspec ones painted yellow ? Don't think they have done hardly any civilianisation on them.

[clarion]

It would seem unlikely that they are anything different.

[TimO]

Consider that the SAR Sea King is a specialised 1978 version of a 1969 UK version of a 1959 US helicopter!

They've been modified and updated quite a lot over their lifetimes, and I'd bet that Clarion is correct, and it's an additional antenna added on much more recently, and probably had to go there for some reason (like availability of power/data cabling ducts, or clearance from other parts of the airframe etc), since even when modding an existing aircraft, people know that if you put something in the position of a step, someone will eventually step on it.

Even if you train everyone who should be anywhere near it, at some point, a bod who you can't scream at, like royalty or a very senior rank, will doing something daft like step on it.  This will be a known issue with the aircraft, and it would have been modified out by now, if there was a practical way to do it.

The Sea Kings are meant for things like crew recovery from a downed aircraft, in times of war, so they're doing what they're designed to do.  They probably wouldn't be painted bright yellow, should they be used in that exact role! (Edit: pcolbeck just said that, whilst I was writing it!)

[SlowCoach]

Aern't the air sea rescue Seakings just full millspec ones painted yellow ? Don't think they have done hardly any civilianisation on them.

Right in one. They are military aircraft which are painted yellow in peace time. I was flying in one shortly after the Falklands War and it wasn't yellow, and still seemed to be equipped with pointy things that emitted projectiles which didn't seem to have anything to do with saving life - rather the opposite in fact. The crews have very definite priorities for their missions (recovering down aircrews is top of the list - collecting missing walkers and climbers is absolute bottom and is officially a training exercise in many cases - though it certainly isn't training for the casualty). I've been on the aircraft before when priorities have been changed midflight and found myself rapidly descending on a wire onto a deserted beach. Because the mission had changed from transporting mountain rescue teams to the incident site to a sea rescue and we were not wearing immersion suits etc. we were "dumped as extraneous cargo"

[andygates]

I distinctly remember offering a grid ref to the phone operator when young Phil of this parish did his Dunwich Dive.  They weren't interested, though it was the native WGS thingy, not an OS ref.  We got a "the road to X just outside Y" and that was fine.

I was a bit surprised at the time and assume that things have changed.  Whether or not the operators are up to snuff may be a whole other matter. 

[graculus]

Apparently this subject will be one of the items on tomorrow's (Wednesday 29/6/11) 'You and Yours' (Radio 4 12.00-1.00pm)

[johnckirk]

I recently visited the EOC (Emergency Operations Centre) where the London Ambulance Service take 999 calls, so I saw how their computer system works. I specifically asked about OS grid coordinates, and their screen has boxes for northings/eastings. They can also search by keywords, e.g. "Tesco" or "The Gherkin", which shows a list of all matching descriptions, then they can pick whichever one looks most relevant. Each calltaker has an additional screen with the London A-Z (or equivalent) on it, which jumps to the location you specified, whether that was based on postcode/grid ref/whatever. So, once they know the general area, they can ask for more specific info (e.g. adjacent roads) to get your exact location. None of this delays the ambulance, because someone else will be dispatching that while you're talking. All in all, I was impressed, and hopefully there are (or will be) similar systems elsewhere in the country.

[clarion]

So why the obsession with postcode in London (I don't know about anywhere else) once they are told the caller doesn't know?

[TimO]

So why the obsession with postcode in London (I don't know about anywhere else) once they are told the caller doesn't know?

Presumably poor operator training, and a lack of familiarity with more obscure location determination systems such as Northings/Eastings (ie OSGB) which is only ever going to be used very occasionally by callers.

[Cudzoziemiec]

They can also search by keywords, e.g. "Tesco" or "The Gherkin", which shows a list of all matching descriptions, then they can pick whichever one looks most relevant.

That'd be Jurek's house then! 

[hellymedic]

So why the obsession with postcode in London (I don't know about anywhere else) once they are told the caller doesn't know?

Ridiculous innit?
Most people don't know more than a couple of postcodes do they?

[Regulator]

So why the obsession with postcode in London (I don't know about anywhere else) once they are told the caller doesn't know?

Ridiculous innit?
Most people don't know more than a couple of postcodes do they?

The one good thing about postcodes, for London at least, is that quite a few road signs have the postcode on them.  I've also seen this in Liverpool as well.

[Biggsy]

The full postcode?   (Which often won't apply to the whole road anyway).

They all have the first part of the postcode in London.

[Regulator]

The full postcode?   (Which often won't apply to the whole road anyway).

They all have the first part of the postcode in London.

I know its only the first part of the postcode - but it can help the emergency services differentiate between Bloggs Road SW15 and Bloggs Road NW1...

[TimO]

... or probably more importantly between the umpteen High Streets and similar common names!

(and indeed some long roads go through quite a few postcodes).

[Biggsy]

Yes the first part of the post code is useful.  You may have to go some way to find a road sign, though.

To be fair, the emergency services don't insist on the postcode (even if they ask for it).  It's just the grid references that I'm worried about - that some operators in some areas still might not know what to do with (despite any training).

[Cudzoziemiec]

Street signs in Bristol often have the first part of the post code, too. But the trouble with that is you only get signs at junctions, and then only for the minor road.

[gordon taylor]

I was surprised, and pleased, to see that some new roadsigns in remote parts of Argyle show the full GR on the back.





That could be useful if it became standard practice on rural roads.

[hellymedic]

Some Dorset fingerpost signs have grid references too.

Like here http://maps.google.com/?hl=EN&ll=50.883976,-1.990156&spn=0.011317,0.042272&z=15&vpsrc=6&layer=c&cbll=50.883893,-1.9903&panoid=c84TBJPDgYSmMW5RzPjTpw&cbp=12,177.62,,2,-2.55