Author Topic: How much is too much  (Read 4947 times)

annie

How much is too much
« on: 19 February, 2009, 10:34:51 pm »
This topic was raised on here

How much time in the gym is too much?  For me I guess it depends on the break down of CV work and weights.

Open to the floor.


andygates

  • Peroxide Viking
Re: How much is too much
« Reply #1 on: 19 February, 2009, 10:44:12 pm »
A lot depends on how fit you are, but more than 90 minutes in the gym is counter-productive (cortisol again).  On the road?  There's people who are out there all the time, it seems. 

I strongly believe that a day of clear rest each week is very beneficial, but even at my peak I'm not elite, and elites work a bit differently. 

I've watched friends dive grinning into overtraining again and again.  That's one thing I like about the "Training Effect" gimmick on the Suunto HRMs - it's a warning of "too much" as well as "too little".
It takes blood and guts to be this cool but I'm still just a cliché.
OpenStreetMap UK & IRL Streetmap & Topo: ravenfamily.org/andyg/maps updates weekly.

simonp

Re: How much is too much
« Reply #2 on: 19 February, 2009, 10:46:21 pm »
For Audax training I think you do need to do lots of miles to train recovery.  I recovered better after cycling 400km the second time than the first.  For training to increase power etc, though, I am thinking of hour-long sessions on the turbo including warm-up and warm-down.

annie

Re: How much is too much
« Reply #3 on: 19 February, 2009, 10:49:55 pm »
On a normal week, when I am fit and well and firing on all cylinders I would visit the gym 2-3 times a week.  I do not include my ten minutes of stretching at the start and ten minutes of stretching at the end.  I won't work out without stretching so if I am pushed for time I do something else.  That's 20 minutes gone already.  I probably spend about 45-50 minutes with free weights, the ball and the mat. 

My running has taken a bit of a nose dive due to illness and haven't run at all this week, sadly.

I won't get to the gym again as tomorrow is a rest day although I may just take the MTB round the field to sort out the tyre problem.  I have gone tubeless and need to ride it to avoid the constant deflations in the rear tyre.


Chris S

Re: How much is too much
« Reply #4 on: 19 February, 2009, 10:57:14 pm »
The gym is a very artificial environment, and you can exhaust specific muscles very quickly. If you go to the gym thinking "Today I'm going to work my core" you will exhaust your core muscles very quickly - quite possibly in under an hour. If you try to do more, you'll induce stress - cortisol production and all those nasties.

As with most things, moderation is the key. You only need to put an hour or so aside a day to exercise. More, day in day out, will wear most people down - it certainly would me.

Endurance activity just complicates the issue. When I ride an audax, it takes me a few days to recover properly, and if I carry on working out at the gym in the days afterwards, things start to unravel.

annie

Re: How much is too much
« Reply #5 on: 19 February, 2009, 10:59:21 pm »
I quite agree with you Chris.  After a 200 I don't venture into the gym or the pool. 

I have even cut back on my walks with the dogs, bear in mind I was walking around 5-6 miles almost every day. 

andygates

  • Peroxide Viking
Re: How much is too much
« Reply #6 on: 19 February, 2009, 11:05:52 pm »
Annie, that doesn't sound like too much for a gym bunny.  You're obviously a person who does the whole fitness thing.  It's not the crazy levels of training that I've seen in, say, exercise-anorexics or teenage lads lifting weights. 

It's your life, if you want to spend it getting buff, enjoy it.    :)

The golden rule is "are you getting fitter?"  -- if you're getting sicker, slower or weaker, something's wrong.  If you're working harder and going nowhere, something's dumb in your plan.  If you're getting fitter and not skiving work to train, all is well.
It takes blood and guts to be this cool but I'm still just a cliché.
OpenStreetMap UK & IRL Streetmap & Topo: ravenfamily.org/andyg/maps updates weekly.

annie

Re: How much is too much
« Reply #7 on: 19 February, 2009, 11:10:04 pm »
Annie, that doesn't sound like too much for a gym bunny.  You're obviously a person who does the whole fitness thing.  It's not the crazy levels of training that I've seen in, say, exercise-anorexics or teenage lads lifting weights. 

It's your life, if you want to spend it getting buff, enjoy it.    :)

The golden rule is "are you getting fitter?"  -- if you're getting sicker, slower or weaker, something's wrong.  If you're working harder and going nowhere, something's dumb in your plan.  If you're getting fitter and not skiving work to train, all is well.

Thank you Andy.  Certainly getting fitter, am being careful with my weights though and have dropped them slightly to allow for my recent illness.  Just back to doing deadlifts today, felt that in my hamstrings and backside. 

My six pack is almost there. 

I laugh at some of the guys that I know go in for up to 3 hours, working on their upper body and nothing else.  They never stretch, they use momentum on the bars and with their weights, they look silly.

Some of the weightlifting I do, I need another person to remove the bar after I have finished, this isn't always possible so I have to juggle things a little bit.

simonp

Re: How much is too much
« Reply #8 on: 19 February, 2009, 11:11:42 pm »
After my first 200 I reckon it too me til the Friday to recover, when suddenly I banged out a record commute tme.

Being more used to it now, and if I'm in an Audax groove rather than coming back into it after a break:

(assume events are on a Saturday)

200  - feel recovered on Monday
300  - feel recovered on Tuesday
400  - feel recovered on Thursday
600  - feel recovered on Saturday (my fastest ever 200 was the Saturday after the BCM 08, see.)
1200 - feel recovered in October

I suspect, however that cumulative effects that you don't notice still add up.  Hence when I tried 400/200/600/200 on consecutive weekends though I was flying for the final 200 as I mentioned, I was exhausted generally after that 200, and didn't ride another event til the MSG 300 a month later.

inc

Re: How much is too much
« Reply #9 on: 20 February, 2009, 08:36:06 am »
What is your reasoning for going to the gym, what are you trying to achieve. It is difficult to give an opinion on how much is too much without knowing why you are doing it.

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: How much is too much
« Reply #10 on: 20 February, 2009, 09:00:22 am »
10seconds in a gym is probably too much for me.  It's very boring, being in a sweaty atmosphere with crappy music lifting weights.  I prefer my exercise to take me somewhere (walking, cycling etc).

Mind you, it probably shows.
Getting there...

annie

Re: How much is too much
« Reply #11 on: 20 February, 2009, 09:55:12 am »
What is your reasoning for going to the gym, what are you trying to achieve. It is difficult to give an opinion on how much is too much without knowing why you are doing it.

Hmm where to start?  Many and varied reasons but....

To improve strength and tone.

To maintain good form.

I enjoy myself, I set the programme, I change it frequently, I never get bored and I love to see the outcome of my hard work.

I have had numerous operations over the years and have to maintain flexibility and strength in some of my joints, particularly my left shoulder.  Without this training the pain is excruciating.  Problems with my feet, lower back, hips and wrists are all kept in check with the workouts I do and avoid unecessary drugs, injections and further surgery.

It also allows me to focus on my weaker areas such as my hip flexors and wrists and to enable me to run and cycle quite comfortably.

Cycling and running alone are not enough for me.


inc

Re: How much is too much
« Reply #12 on: 20 February, 2009, 01:14:21 pm »
The reason I asked was I think that you may be questioning yourself how much is too much. With cycling, walking , running, swimming  ?  and the gym quite obviously your exercise regime is far beyond what is required for good health. I have done a lot of gym work over the years and have always seen it as a means to an end not an end in itself. Why ride an exercise bike indoors in a germ laden environment when you can be out in the fresh air, or row a none existent boat up a none existing river. Lifting weights is  pointless  unless you want to develop strength for a specific purpose but what you develop will disappear anyway when you stop as the body only maintains what it needs, not the artificial loads imposed by weights. If you have joint problems putting more loads through them with weights is probably counter productive.I think you mentioned developing a six pack somewhere, concentrating on one abdominal muscle group  may in fact have a destabilising effect on your pelvic girdle exacerbating your hip imbalance.  For your joints, running and cycling it may be worth  getting a copy of Joanne Elphinson's book Stability, Sport and Performance Movement. as it will probably do more for your hips, shoulder, running and cycling than any amount of gym work.

Your wrist problem on the bike is almost certainly a positional issue putting too much weight on your hands, you could try moving your saddle back a bit see if it makes any difference.

I hope you don't think I have been too blunt, it is well meaning advice from someone who has been there.

andygates

  • Peroxide Viking
Re: How much is too much
« Reply #13 on: 20 February, 2009, 01:25:19 pm »
It's the old "am I normal?" question.  When you're at the deadlifts-and-sixpack level (rowr!) you're in advance of most trainers, especially most women trainers, and it's reasonable to ask "is this good-different or obsessive nutbar different?"

From the way you describe it, it's good-different, especially with the injury management.  A good strong set of stabilizer muscles mean reduced problems with dodgy joints. 

Inc misses one point about weights that's important for many trainers: to look and feel good.  It's just plain fun clanking iron around and it's very empowering having that kind of control over your body.  The aesthetic argument is not trivial.

He's not wrong about the bike though, worth checking out that position...
It takes blood and guts to be this cool but I'm still just a cliché.
OpenStreetMap UK & IRL Streetmap & Topo: ravenfamily.org/andyg/maps updates weekly.

annie

Re: How much is too much
« Reply #14 on: 20 February, 2009, 01:30:06 pm »
inc, thank you for your reply.

A few points worth noting.  My wrists are just fine on the bike.  I have had surgery on one of my wrists and several of my fingers, there is a general weakness and one that I tackle with very tiny weights in a controlled manner.

I never choose the gym over the bike but the two offer very different workouts.  I don't lift heavy weights, I use low weights and high reps.  I do not concentrate on just my core muscles but it is essential I do work in this area because of my hips.  My pelvis is very stable but very assymetrical and I address this following advice from a surgeon and physiotherapist.

I have no intention of giving up on the gym.  Sometimes time is limited and so I make the best of what I have. If I have a long and arduous week on the bike I don't visit the gym at all or maybe just the once.

I understand what you are saying and I appreciate your comments.


annie

Re: How much is too much
« Reply #15 on: 20 February, 2009, 01:33:52 pm »
It's the old "am I normal?" question.  When you're at the deadlifts-and-sixpack level (rowr!) you're in advance of most trainers, especially most women trainers, and it's reasonable to ask "is this good-different or obsessive nutbar different?"

From the way you describe it, it's good-different, especially with the injury management.  A good strong set of stabilizer muscles mean reduced problems with dodgy joints. 

Inc misses one point about weights that's important for many trainers: to look and feel good.  It's just plain fun clanking iron around and it's very empowering having that kind of control over your body.  The aesthetic argument is not trivial.

He's not wrong about the bike though, worth checking out that position...

Couldn't have put it better myself.  :-*

I had hip flexor problems last year and had to stop running for 6 weeks.  I spent a long time in the gym building strength in specific muscle groups and have so far avoided repeating this awful pain in the arse condition.

If I look good (under my clothes) I feel good.  Sure, I could sit on my bike and ride hour after hour but it doesn't do everything for me that I want it to do and I know I would suffer more if I didn't go to the gym.

I have researched everything I do and I know I do it well, controlled, good technique and form and I see results.

The shoulder surgery has meant that pull ups on the bars are a little harder than before but improving with each month.

Re: How much is too much
« Reply #16 on: 20 February, 2009, 04:21:54 pm »

Having scanned the thread two things came out

1) are you comfortable with what you do?

2) There are many descriptions of over-training, which I'm sure you know, ie poor sleep, GI disturbance etc, do they apply?

If the answers to the above are yes and no respectively, then all is fine, don't worry, just remember the rest day.

And enjoy the benefits :)

vorsprung

  • Opposites Attract
    • Audaxing
Re: How much is too much
« Reply #17 on: 20 February, 2009, 04:38:25 pm »

How much time in the gym is too much? 


Any time is too much

I did the gym for a couple of months.  Then I realised that the good bit was the 5 mile bike ride to it

Old people, pro athletes with a coach or people with a medical condition might benefit from gym work but for mr average it is a waste of time for improving cycling performance.

I suppose if you really enjoy being in the gym then you might loose some weight or add a little CV fitness somehow but if you want to ride the bike, the best training is riding the bike.

annie

Re: How much is too much
« Reply #18 on: 20 February, 2009, 04:45:51 pm »

Having scanned the thread two things came out

1) are you comfortable with what you do?

2) There are many descriptions of over-training, which I'm sure you know, ie poor sleep, GI disturbance etc, do they apply?

If the answers to the above are yes and no respectively, then all is fine, don't worry, just remember the rest day.

And enjoy the benefits :)

I sleep well unless disturbed by teenage boys throwing popcorn and giggling.  My GI disturbance was caused by a parasite.

I am very comfortable with what I do.

Vorsprung.  I love riding my bike but also love running and going to the gym.  Cycling is non-weight bearing and I need to carry out weight bearing exercise for medical reasons. 

My weight is constant so no worries about weight loss for me. 

I do want to ride my bike and will continue to do so.

It would appear that most people don't like going to the gym, that's ok, that's their preference. 


inc

Re: How much is too much
« Reply #19 on: 20 February, 2009, 04:57:08 pm »

I had hip flexor problems last year and had to stop running for 6 weeks.  I spent a long time in the gym building strength in specific muscle groups and have so far avoided repeating this awful pain in the arse condition.

I have researched everything I do and I know I do it well, controlled, good technique and form and I see results.


Joint problems ( without trauma ) are generally caused by lack of stability in that joint, in cycling normally knees, lower back and neck, in  running , any joint and most muscle groups. The reason is that the weakest point fails, every time. When a joint is not stable the body compensates hence the variety of strange running gaits and cycling pedalling actions, knees in and out. Teaching the body to engage all the muscles needed to maintain a stable joint sounds like a load of waffle but believe me it is true, it works and you don't need any weights to do it. If you want to do weights for the body beautiful, good luck, enjoy it but weight training to get joint stability is counter productive. I really suggest you get a read of the book I recommended, I don't think you will be disappointed.

Re: How much is too much
« Reply #20 on: 20 February, 2009, 05:12:17 pm »

It would appear that most people don't like going to the gym, that's ok, that's their preference. 


For me the gym, when I did it was a means to an end, this the same for running at the moment, the fun/joy/pleasure is riding a bike, all else is to make that experience better

simonp

Re: How much is too much
« Reply #21 on: 20 February, 2009, 06:30:00 pm »

How much time in the gym is too much? 


Any time is too much

I did the gym for a couple of months.  Then I realised that the good bit was the 5 mile bike ride to it

Old people, pro athletes with a coach or people with a medical condition might benefit from gym work but for mr average it is a waste of time for improving cycling performance.

I suppose if you really enjoy being in the gym then you might loose some weight or add a little CV fitness somehow but if you want to ride the bike, the best training is riding the bike.

It might not been good for training cycling performance per se, but I think it's useful for correcting things like the muscle imbalances focusing on cycling alone will cause.  So for example when I went to the gym today (first visit since October) I did some knee curls to try to build up my hamstrings a bit, as the physio suggested I do.

When I had a fitness assessment last year:

 - CV: good
 - Upper body strength: average
 - Flexibility: poor

Poor flexibility is almost certainly a) exacerbated by ultra endurance cycling and b) a cause of injury whilst partaking in ultra endurance cycling.  Cycling has only given me CV fitness, it hasn't given me other measures of fitness.

So, I think a sensible programme at the gym can help with this.  Of course, much of it can be done at home but the gym provides a bit more variety and it's quite fun to sit on a rowing machine and improve your PB.  Or use the cross trainer which trains the glutes which I already said were weak - probably again a cycling related issue.


andygates

  • Peroxide Viking
Re: How much is too much
« Reply #22 on: 20 February, 2009, 09:09:22 pm »
That many posters are anti-gym is hardly surprising on a bike forum, the idea of exercise is different.  The idea of the purpose of physical effort is different -- hell, even among riders we've got competitors, pootlers, ramblers, mudpluggers, commuters and mad scientists.

Working to improve your body can be (for some folks) as satisfying as fettling your bike into peak performance.  And for others, like fettling, it's a chore best avoided. 

Not all performance needs a reason.  We could all be riding Hero utility bikes.  Enjoying peak performance for its own sake is a perfectly valid, rational (and dammit, elusive) motivation.

There are as many people who would say that ultra-endurance riding is "too much" as would say it about gymrats.

Does it make you happy?  Yes.  Does it make you sick?  No.  Keep at it.  :)
It takes blood and guts to be this cool but I'm still just a cliché.
OpenStreetMap UK & IRL Streetmap & Topo: ravenfamily.org/andyg/maps updates weekly.