Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => The Knowledge => Topic started by: rogerzilla on June 27, 2008, 06:30:18 pm

Title: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: rogerzilla on June 27, 2008, 06:30:18 pm
Both from the same bike.  One pad is a Kool-Stop salmon.  The other is a Clark's from Halfords.  Which one do you think has embedded all the aluminium chips and made my rim concave?

(http://www.peeble.com/pads.jpg)
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: bobajobrob on June 27, 2008, 06:33:29 pm
Have just fitted Kool Stop dual compound pads on my tourer. Shimano canti pads (http://www.mtbr.com/cat/brakes/brake-pad/shimano/xt-pads/PRD_350657_107crx.aspx) are awful, you can hear them grinding the rim away, and ineffective.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: andygates on June 27, 2008, 08:26:49 pm
That's a very clear and horrifying illustration of the case.  Good post.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on June 27, 2008, 08:28:10 pm
That's a very clear and horrifying illustration of the case.  Good post.

Ditto.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: frankly frankie on June 28, 2008, 12:09:03 am
Except we weren't told which was which.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: chris n on June 28, 2008, 12:11:56 am
It says KOOL-STOP on the left-hand end of the lower pad.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Gandalf on June 28, 2008, 06:33:55 am
Following a similar discussion last week I Wiggled meself a set.  I'm glad I did, they are much better in every respect and particularly in the rain, as I discovered last Saturday.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: CathH on June 28, 2008, 07:45:47 am
Wow.  *slightly concerned* What do you guys think of Aztec cantilever brake pads?  Do they have a good reputation, or is it time for me to change them?  I've had a look at them this morning in situ on the bike and their appearance is somewhere between the above pictures.  They only squeal a bit in the wet.  I have the ones with replacable pads, thinking that I was creating less waste.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: rogerzilla on June 28, 2008, 08:24:03 am
I like Aztecs, because they don't need toeing-in to prevent squeal.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: GruB on June 28, 2008, 08:27:09 am
Wake up and smell the coffee people.
I forked out £26 for Swissstops for the MonstaThorn for exactly this reason.

Excellent illustration though.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: MSeries on June 28, 2008, 08:41:47 am
Wake up and smell the coffee people.
I forked out £26 for Swissstops for the MonstaThorn for exactly this reason.

Excellent illustration though.

£26 for brake blocks is beyond my budget, over priced if you ask me for something that IS going to wear out. I've never had a problem with premature rim wear and never used Kool Stop salmon or Swissstops.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on June 28, 2008, 11:23:25 am
Shimano are as bad as cheap blocks for peeling off the rims. Kool stops are the best, although I've never paid £26 for a set.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Gandalf on June 28, 2008, 12:54:59 pm
I paid £13.28 for a full set of Koolstops on Wiggle, with free delivery.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: bobajobrob on June 29, 2008, 11:51:38 am
Wow.  *slightly concerned* What do you guys think of Aztec cantilever brake pads?  Do they have a good reputation, or is it time for me to change them?  I've had a look at them this morning in situ on the bike and their appearance is somewhere between the above pictures.  They only squeal a bit in the wet.  I have the ones with replacable pads, thinking that I was creating less waste.

Have used the aztecs before and found them rim-friendly. Consider some kool stop salmon or dual compound pads next time, they are the best IMHO.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: GruB on June 29, 2008, 12:36:17 pm
Wake up and smell the coffee people.
I forked out £26 for Swissstops for the MonstaThorn for exactly this reason.

Excellent illustration though.

£26 for brake blocks is beyond my budget, over priced if you ask me for something that IS going to wear out. I've never had a problem with premature rim wear and never used Kool Stop salmon or Swissstops.

£26 was for the brake boot too - as my existing setup was Ultegra crap all in one through away pads.  Normally the inserts are £20 I believe - and they last longer so in the long run, aside from no rim wear ( minimal ) the outlay will be the same I reckon.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Rhys W on June 29, 2008, 10:16:16 pm
Both from the same bike.  One pad is a Kool-Stop salmon.  The other is a Clark's from Halfords.  Which one do you think has embedded all the aluminium chips and made my rim concave?

 To elevate this from the level of anecdote you need to tell us if they came from either side of the same wheel, or one was front and the other rear.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: rogerzilla on June 30, 2008, 06:38:54 am
The crappy ones were from the rear, but only about half the mileage of the front ones.  Both wheels have mudguards, so the front gets a reasonable dose of gritty water too.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: tatanab on June 30, 2008, 06:46:58 am
£26 was for the brake boot too
That's £26 for a pair of brake blocks in brake shoes (I am old enough to remember the old terms before fashion got in the way.  None of this modern cartridge/boot and pad/insert.)

Quote
Normally the inserts are £20 I believe

That's for a set of 4 brake blocks.  At £5 each I don't think that extortionate.

In recent years I have used Koolstop dual compond and found them to be very good.  I have one machine where the brakes did not seem as good as they should be , so having read rave reviews on the various fora ("it's like throwing an anchor out the back") I have bought some green Swiss Stop.  I've only used them for about 50 miles so far.  Can I detect any difference to the Kool Stops?  No, they seem pretty much the same.

By far the best braked machine I have has brakes many here would probably sneer at.  It has  pair of very deep drop Alhonga dual pivot with KoolStop dual compond worked by late 1970s Mafac levers.  Now that really does stop very well indeed.  I think it is due to the lever design - distance of the cable nipple from the pivot and all that.

I think the important thing to realise is that OEM blocks are not as good as aftermarket blocks.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: The Mechanic on June 30, 2008, 09:52:00 am
I use Koolstops all the time.  They were difficult to get hold of but now seem to be available at more places.  I put some on my audax bike last week after being out in the rain with the OEM items on the Shimano R640 breaks.  B****rs wouldn't stop the bike no matter how hard I pulled on the lever.  I would recomend a set of KS with evey new brakeset.

Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: bobajobrob on June 30, 2008, 09:53:45 am
That's £26 for a pair of brake blocks in brake shoes....Can I detect any difference to the Kool Stops?  No, they seem pretty much the same.

Kool stops are about 2/3 of the price (http://spacycles.co.uk/products.php?plid=m2b0s104p824) *and* you get an extra pair of inserts :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: LEE on June 30, 2008, 02:46:07 pm
Wake up and smell the coffee people.
I forked out £26 for Swissstops for the MonstaThorn for exactly this reason.

Excellent illustration though.


That's almost twice the price of a SUN CR18 rim though.

I'm going to start building my own wheels soon (because I ground my back wheel to destruction in 8000 miles and son't want to be so reliant on LBS).

What are the economics of this?  Expensive blocks versus replacement rims.

Brake blocks must be one of the most overpriced items (next to printer ink) in the world.  Printer ink is more expensive than CHANEL no5 by volume and now most manufacturers are selling replacement rubber pads £7 (not even the metal holder).

So,
how many miles do you expect from a set of blocks?
how many miles do you expect from a rim?
how much do you pay for your blocks?
how much do your rims cost?

Does it make sense to buy budget blocks and build my own wheels?
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: clarion on June 30, 2008, 02:57:42 pm
Aztecs are fab.  Definitely rim-friendly, but the corollary is that they are pretty soft and wear quickly.  I don't mind, cause they are easy to replace & set up (I do make sure I toe them in).  The gunge in winter can be a bit disheartening, but the stopping power is reliable, so I pay that price.

Kool-stops?  Tried several times, but never been impressed.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: mattc on June 30, 2008, 03:34:14 pm
Wake up and smell the coffee people.
I forked out £26 for Swissstops for the MonstaThorn for exactly this reason.

Excellent illustration though.


That's almost twice the price of a SUN CR18 rim though.

That's exactly what i was thinking!

Do bear in mind, though, when you finish the analysis started above, that it is somewhat quicker to replace blocks than a rim.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: LEE on June 30, 2008, 03:43:53 pm
Wake up and smell the coffee people.
I forked out £26 for Swissstops for the MonstaThorn for exactly this reason.

Excellent illustration though.


That's almost twice the price of a SUN CR18 rim though.

That's exactly what i was thinking!

Do bear in mind, though, when you finish the analysis started above, that it is somewhat quicker to replace blocks than a rim.

My LBS rebuilt my wheel in under an hour (I know, he's very experienced) and I'm not saying that I won't change brake blocks, just that I could buy cheaper ones.

Eventually we all need to replace rims and brake blocks I'm really just pointing out that  there isn't such a huge price difference between a wheel rim and a 'quality' set of brake blocks
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Air Dancer on June 30, 2008, 03:45:39 pm
What, no mention of Fibrax?

They're good and they're British
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on June 30, 2008, 03:54:04 pm
how many miles do you expect from a set of blocks?
About 2000

how many miles do you expect from a rim?
14000 so far . . . 

how much do you pay for your blocks?

erm, 7.99 a pair

how much do your rims cost?

I buy complete wheels from Online Mountain Bike Shop - Merlin Cycles  (http://www.merlincycles.co.uk/), 'cause they cost little more than the cost of the individual parts.

Does it make sense to buy budget blocks and build my own wheels?
No, because your braking will still suck.

My koolstop salmons have about 2000 miles on them. I washed my rims, wiped them down with washing up liquid to finish. I can lock the rear wheel up in the dry from the hoods easily. I can lock up both wheels from the hoods if I try.

I've never had such performance from other pads, not even Aztecs (which I used to swear by).

The cost is a huge squealing noise, but that just alerts peds and car drivers, so I'm not bothered by it, it's an advantage in city cycling.


Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: sas on June 30, 2008, 07:01:04 pm
Aztecs are fab.  Definitely rim-friendly, but the corollary is that they are pretty soft and wear quickly.  I don't mind, cause they are easy to replace & set up (I do make sure I toe them in).  The gunge in winter can be a bit disheartening, but the stopping power is reliable, so I pay that price.

Kool-stops?  Tried several times, but never been impressed.

Opposite for me. Aztecs were great in the dry, completely useless in the wet so I switched to the Kool Stops instead. They seem OK so far. I've just got the standard Kool Stops- is there any advantage to the salmons other than stopping power?
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: rogerzilla on June 30, 2008, 07:20:37 pm
Yes - if you see my OP, the Kool-Stop salmons don't embed grit.

Having said that, I've gone off them because they squeal insufferably on brakes with any hint of slop in the pivots.  They're fine on short-reach caliper brakes (I have them on the front of the Fuji) but needed so much toe-in on cantis and Vs that I gave up.

Aztecs seem wonderful in the dry - the V-brake on the Frankendale is unusually good with them - and don't need toe-in.  Many years ago, when they still used a grey compound, they were crapola in the wet, but I haven't tried the current black compound in the rain yet.

One problem is that Aztecs have been through at least three generations of pad material that I know of, so saying they're good or bad is meaningless unless you know when the reviewer last tried them.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: jane on June 30, 2008, 07:44:09 pm
I had my first ever rim split (really impressed by the magnificent sound - like a small explosion!) coming down a hill into Castleton in the Peak district.  Rims not new, but not overly worn before the trip- but eight days in bad weather carrying camping gear and diverting myself, through a combination of map reading mistakes and a wish to enjoy wilder country, down some very stony tracks, I am certain meant the brake pads, (Shimano inserts) picked up tons of grot which led to the rear rim's premature demise.  I had been moaning about these new  pads  for ages (my friends will be yawning here and nodding bored agreement) and was sure they were wearing out much faster than the old fashioned ones I had on my (very old} centrepulls.  Now I am sure I was right- have changed to the Koolstops and will see how these go.  Already they seem to be wearing better.  I looked at the Swisstops,  but didn't buy.  Yes, they are expensive, but to be honest, if I hadn't been slowing down on that descent due to rain and ascending car, I may have been going at around 35mph- I do not wish to imagine what may have happened.  So if I find they are better than the Kool Stops I will get them, if it saves money in the long run.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: rogerzilla on June 30, 2008, 08:00:49 pm
You haven't lived until you've used rubber blocks on chromed steel rims, in heavy rain  :D

Nothing happens.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Flatus on June 30, 2008, 08:01:10 pm
Wake up and smell the coffee people.
I forked out £26 for Swissstops for the MonstaThorn for exactly this reason.

Excellent illustration though.

£26 for brake blocks is beyond my budget, over priced if you ask me for something that IS going to wear out. I've never had a problem with premature rim wear and never used Kool Stop salmon or Swissstops.

Bet you wish you'd braked a bit on that corner though   ;)
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Flatus on June 30, 2008, 08:03:02 pm
You haven't lived until you've used rubber blocks on chromed steel rims, in heavy rain  :D

Nothing happens.

Try brand new grey aztecs circa 1984, on steel chromed rims in the rain.

Even less than nothing happens.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: GruB on June 30, 2008, 08:11:08 pm
Wake up and smell the coffee people.
I forked out £26 for Swissstops for the MonstaThorn for exactly this reason.

Excellent illustration though.

£26 for brake blocks is beyond my budget, over priced if you ask me for something that IS going to wear out. I've never had a problem with premature rim wear and never used Kool Stop salmon or Swissstops.

Bet you wish you'd braked a bit on that corner though   ;)

I did, but you can hear me shouting whoah at Roger as he is reversing his bike, cleverly done, at me.  ;D
Well that is how it happened in my mind.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: rogerzilla on June 30, 2008, 08:11:25 pm
Try brand new grey aztecs circa 1984, on steel chromed rims in the rain.

Even less than nothing happens.
Like, the bike speeds up, dude.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Pete on June 30, 2008, 08:14:15 pm
Ooerr!! I agree, I've found the Clarks are pretty cr@p, but this phenomenon is news to me.  Must take a look sometime.

Only just (few weeks ago) bought a sizeable bagful of BBB Roadstop blocks mailorder - very cheap.  Anyone know if they are any good?  They have a different tread pattern than Clarks but fit in the same (campag-style) shoes.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Flatus on June 30, 2008, 09:04:40 pm
Wake up and smell the coffee people.
I forked out £26 for Swissstops for the MonstaThorn for exactly this reason.

Excellent illustration though.

£26 for brake blocks is beyond my budget, over priced if you ask me for something that IS going to wear out. I've never had a problem with premature rim wear and never used Kool Stop salmon or Swissstops.

Bet you wish you'd braked a bit on that corner though   ;)

I did, but you can hear me shouting whoah at Roger as he is reversing his bike, cleverly done, at me.  ;D
Well that is how it happened in my mind.

I meant Mseries, not you  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: MSeries on June 30, 2008, 09:10:51 pm
Wake up and smell the coffee people.
I forked out £26 for Swissstops for the MonstaThorn for exactly this reason.

Excellent illustration though.

£26 for brake blocks is beyond my budget, over priced if you ask me for something that IS going to wear out. I've never had a problem with premature rim wear and never used Kool Stop salmon or Swissstops.

Bet you wish you'd braked a bit on that corner though   ;)
I think that might have been the problem, I was braking and the wheel locked and/or skidded in the bend and slid away. Should have braked sooner. I did not crash for want of better brake blocks, my speed wasn't that high,  if it was I might have slid more and not hurt myself so much. Rider error.

it only took someone 8 months to try to dissect the crash. Cheers.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: clarion on July 01, 2008, 09:52:59 am
You haven't lived until you've used rubber blocks on chromed steel rims, in heavy rain  :D

Nothing happens.

Down Walkley Bank

That's what decided me on buying the Aztecs in the first place.  And that, later, I would invest in alloy rims...

...and cantilever brakes...
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Gattopardo on July 01, 2008, 11:11:03 am
Thought the asda brake were supposed to be really good?
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Jaded on July 01, 2008, 11:42:47 am

I meant Mseries, not you  ;D ;D ;D

We don't have film of MSeries crashing....

GruB, on the other hand, is now immortalised.  ;D
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: andrew w on July 01, 2008, 08:21:00 pm
how many miles do you expect from a set of blocks?
About 2000

What do you lot do with your brake blocks to make them wear out so fast?

I've just done a quick tally as regards my current fleet, and the figures are as follows:

Steel summer bike (Ultegra brakes and blocks): 7,600 miles since new brakes and blocks were fitted - still going strong.

Winter weekend bike (Shimano RX100 brakes and blocks): 5,400 miles since new - still going strong.

Trek Pilot 5.2 (Shimano long reach brakes and blocks): 3,300 miles since new - still going strong

Commuter bike (Shimano Cantilevers): 5,400 miles in all weathers, and could probably do with changing.

Personally I don't have a problem with the performance of Shimano blocks, and I've been to the Alps several times, not to mention up and down most of the hills in the Yorkshire Dales.  I haven't worn out any rims yet, either.

Andrew

Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: innesh on July 01, 2008, 08:40:29 pm

Personally I don't have a problem with the performance of Shimano blocks, and I've been to the Alps several times, not to mention up and down most of the hills in the Yorkshire Dales.  I haven't worn out any rims yet, either.


Aye, maybes no - but what are the soles of your sand shoes like from pressing them onto your front tyre?    ;)
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: bobajobrob on July 01, 2008, 08:41:10 pm
Shimano pads don't last long in the wet when there's lots of grit around. Also in general I find Kool stops smoother and more powerful than shimano pads.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: rogerzilla on July 01, 2008, 09:07:52 pm
I went literally halfway through a set of 105 rear pads on a 60-mile wet ride.  Prior to that, they'd been on there for a whole year of dry riding with no discernible wear.

(the wet weather bike was at the resprayers and I'd volunteered to lead the Beacon Sunday club run to Worcester...including a ford on the way back).
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: nuttycyclist on July 02, 2008, 01:07:02 pm
Shimano pads don't last long in the wet when there's lots of grit around.

Indeed.  This was a new block after 180 miles :o
http://www.nuttycyclist.co.uk/rides/photos/brake_wear_small.jpg


But in general I'm happy with the Shimano blocks and use them all the time on the Dawes Audax.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Greenbank on July 02, 2008, 01:10:53 pm
Haven't had a problem with the Shimano Ultegra blocks (on Mavic Open Pros) on either the fixed or Audax bike and both have done more than 3000km on them since I last changed them. And they've both done some fairly hilly and wet rides along with commuting duties.

My idea of cleaning the bike is taking it out when it's raining.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Fab Foodie on July 03, 2008, 10:04:38 pm
Haven't had a problem with the Shimano Ultegra blocks (on Mavic Open Pros) on either the fixed or Audax bike and both have done more than 3000km on them since I last changed them. And they've both done some fairly hilly and wet rides along with commuting duties.

My idea of cleaning the bike is taking it out when it's raining.

Interesting how opinions differ.  I thought the Ultegra pads were total Carp.  I switched to Koolstop Salmons on the front and blacks on the rear.  I reasoned that in the wet I could haul equally as much on each lever with less chance of rear wheel lock-up with the reduced rear braking.  Seems to work just fine!

Stopping in the dry is fantastic and very controlled.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: gonzo on July 03, 2008, 10:07:20 pm
People who are happy with Ultegra blocks; do you want to buy 2 pairs (ie. 4 pads) from me? They're unused as I switched them out for Ultegra from the start.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: GruB on July 03, 2008, 10:11:56 pm
I was talking to the LBS about this yesterday as he has just put some Swissstops on his MTB and can't believe how good they are.  He is going to get me some black Swissstops to 'trial' for him over the winter to see if they are any good for commuting - he can then use my example when people come in for advice.

We looked at the blurb and it talks about different types of rim - ie. some being softer than others.  Perhaps that is why some on here find no fault with the Ultegra blocks - because their rim is harder?
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: gonzo on July 04, 2008, 08:44:54 am
I used to use Ultegra on Open pros and was happy with them at the time because I'd not tried koolstop. My old tims did have some scoring in them from metal but I assumed that was just normal.

Have the people who like Shimano ever tried koolstop/swissstop?
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Charlotte on July 04, 2008, 09:04:40 am
Although the new tandem's main braking power comes from the hideously powerful rear disk, I think I may spring to replace the V brake pads with some of those Cool Stops.  The alternative gives me The Fear.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Flatus on July 04, 2008, 09:05:12 am
I went literally halfway through a set of 105 rear pads on a 60-mile wet ride. 

Now I can totally believe that, given the amount of weight they have to stop

 ;D ;D
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Gandalf on July 04, 2008, 04:27:01 pm
If anyone want's them I have a set of original Ultegra blocks with only about 200 miles on them.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Greenbank on July 04, 2008, 04:36:00 pm
Have the people who like Shimano ever tried koolstop/swissstop?

No, but I haven't had a need to. The Ultegra blocks are lasting long enough for my liking and I'm able to lock the rear up, and brake sufficiently with the front in both wet and dry, from the hoods too.

(Tektro or Centaur levers depending on fixed/audax bike, Open Pro or Ambrosio Excellight rim and Ultegra blocks).

I've enough spares but keep an eye on the Wanted board in 6 months time and I might buy up any spares going round.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Gattopardo on July 04, 2008, 04:40:28 pm
So cheapest sources for these amazing pads.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: saturn on July 07, 2008, 08:31:31 am
Sorry to return to this but I'm going to have to bite the bullet on this and I can't get my head around the koolstop "model" names.

For Shimano 105 calipers, is it the "Dura" holders & inserts that I need?

I'm sure Spa will know but thought someone here might have already established what's what.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: alecstilleyedye on July 07, 2008, 10:11:08 am
another one for kool stop here. i did a club run on saturday which was, in parts, very heavy on the brakes. i subsequently inspected the brake pads, and they were as smooth as could be.

they seem to wear out quicker than the shimano ones that seemed to eat my rims, but when i can get them for £2 per pair from my lbs i ain't complaining.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Jurek on July 08, 2008, 10:15:59 pm
My Ultegra shoes after around 1600 miles use and spectacular ineffectiveness on last Sunday's ride (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=4830.msg86503#msg86503)
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3101/2651017764_2877c6b03f_o.jpg)

The shiny crystalline bits will account for the grinding noise, not unlike that of a train when it's wheels are not perfectly aligned to the rails, as I descended and tried to slow down.

Top ones front, bottom ones rear.
Now binned and replaced with Salmon Koolstops as per the other bike  :thumbsup:

They also made the bike ver', ver' dirty  :(
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: saturn on July 10, 2008, 08:47:46 am
For Shimano 105 calipers, is it the "Dura" holders & inserts that I need?

Errrm, when I looked I found my calipers were tiagra not 105  ::-) the Dura koolstops are clearly not designed for these calipers (or at least the nut & bolt aren't) but I think I managed to bodge it.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: bobajobrob on July 10, 2008, 07:20:27 pm
Errrm, when I looked I found my calipers were tiagra not 105  ::-) the Dura koolstops are clearly not designed for these calipers (or at least the nut & bolt aren't) but I think I managed to bodge it.

I had to bodge them on my Shimano calipers. I sanded the inside of the caliper holes very slightly then added a thin washer on the inside of the calipers. Without the washer, the recessed nut was done up tight but the pad could still move around with a little force.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: alecstilleyedye on July 11, 2008, 08:58:03 pm
For Shimano 105 calipers, is it the "Dura" holders & inserts that I need?

Errrm, when I looked I found my calipers were tiagra not 105  ::-) the Dura koolstops are clearly not designed for these calipers (or at least the nut & bolt aren't) but I think I managed to bodge it.
my calipers are tiagra, and i use koolstop pads in a fibrax cartridge.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Jacomus on July 25, 2008, 01:44:01 pm
Hydraulic disk brakes - no rim brake can compete in terms of power, control, feel, wet performance, longevity, rim wear, looks* or maintenance.

The only area where competition is possible, is the issue of repairing them in a desolate place.

Though based on how often I frequent somewhere like that... never... I think I'll take the risk!

The sooner manufacturers wake up and smell Canyon's coffee (at the start of 2009 according to the nice man from Canyon) and fit road specific disks to road bikes, the sooner rim-wear can be consigned to the bin.



*Okay, maybe this one is a little more subjective  O:-)
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: gonzo on July 25, 2008, 01:52:44 pm
You don't race do you JrG?
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: tiermat on July 25, 2008, 01:53:46 pm
The sooner manufacturers wake up and smell Canyon's coffee (at the start of 2009 according to the nice man from Canyon) and fit road specific disks to road bikes, the sooner rim-wear can be consigned to the bin.


And the UCI (which I think is what Gonzo is alluding to)
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: gonzo on July 25, 2008, 01:55:31 pm
Yup; the UCI!

You're not even allowed to train for cyclocross on a bike with disc brakes (no idea how the hell they check for that though!)
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: tiermat on July 25, 2008, 02:00:35 pm
Easy, spy bushes....

you may laugh, but do you know for certain that the hawthorn you ride past on a regular basis is not on the UCI payroll? :)
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Jacomus on July 25, 2008, 02:18:00 pm
No, your right, I don't race. Never really fancied it.

I don't see why they should ban disk brakes, other than because they don't fit the 'traditional' concept of what a roadbike should be*.

CycloX is the perfect application of disk brakes, they are allowed in XC and DH so why not CX?


*Based on a few snippets of anti-UCI conversations I have picked up
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: tiermat on July 25, 2008, 02:19:43 pm
To quote the UCI "It would give those with disc brakes an unfair advantage" WAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH WAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH and I'm taking my bat home
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: gonzo on July 25, 2008, 02:26:00 pm
No, your right, I don't race. Never really fancied it.

I don't see why they should ban disk brakes, other than because they don't fit the 'traditional' concept of what a roadbike should be*.

CycloX is the perfect application of disk brakes, they are allowed in XC and DH so why not CX?


*Based on a few snippets of anti-UCI conversations I have picked up

because they don't fit the 'traditional' concept of what a roadbike should be*.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Jacomus on July 25, 2008, 02:27:36 pm
To quote the UCI "It would give those with disc brakes an unfair advantage" WAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH WAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH and I'm taking my bat home

I see... so in other words, Decathlon isn't doing so well at their research into road specific disk brakes?
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: bobajobrob on July 25, 2008, 03:06:39 pm
because they don't fit the 'traditional' concept of what a roadbike should be*.

But CX bikes are not really road bikes, they have knobbly tyres and stuff.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: mattc on July 31, 2008, 01:48:47 pm
A Koolstop after 321 miles in 24 hours:
(http://www.middlefur.plus.com/BrakeBlock_post_24hr.jpg)

I draw 2 conclusions from this:
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Mrs Pingu on August 08, 2008, 08:33:45 pm
I thought I'd have a wee look here - what's the general opinion of the Dual Compound Kool Stops? Better than salmon?

ATM on the commuter I have the Salmons, but they are really shit in the wet. It gives me the fear when I come to the local crossroads near our flat on a wet morning and I'm not quite I'm convinced I'm not going to shoot straight through. :(
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Biggsy on August 08, 2008, 09:01:50 pm
Dual Compound is similar to Salmon; no better in the rain.  In fact Salmon is designed more for the wet than Dual Compound.

In my experience, braking with all rim brakes in shit when it's raining heavily, no matter what the pads are.  There's always that scary delay while water is cleared from the rim.  Salmons work well for me in the dry and light rain when the rim is not swimming with water.

It may help to degrease the rims and sand the pads.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: dkahn400 on August 08, 2008, 09:21:19 pm
Yup; the UCI!

You're not even allowed to train for cyclocross on a bike with disc brakes (no idea how the hell they check for that though!)

 ???

That's ridiculous. Why on earth would they want to control the way you train?
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Woofage on August 09, 2008, 11:27:38 am
How do OE Campag (Centaur) blocks compare with Salmon KS? Should I swap them to prolong rim life?
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Biggsy on August 09, 2008, 12:11:29 pm
The Campag blocks I used a few years ago regularly picked up bits of metal.  I won't give Campag blocks another chance until I hear they are using a compound similar to Kool Stop's!

If however you don't get this problem with your Campags, you won't get much or any improvement in rim life by switching to Kool Stop.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: andrew_s on August 09, 2008, 12:39:56 pm
Yup; the UCI!

You're not even allowed to train for cyclocross on a bike with disc brakes (no idea how the hell they check for that though!)

 ???

That's ridiculous. Why on earth would they want to control the way you train?

It must be a myth, surely?
OK, you can't use less important races for training if you've got discs, but that must be all.
Evidence?

I'd suspect the justification for banning them is keeping all bikes similar. If you've got a number of people riding together, one being able to brake where the others can't is likely to lead to pile-ups.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: GruB on August 10, 2008, 06:06:07 pm
So far these rims have done 836.11 miles using these green Swissstop Flash pads.
Rim wear is non existent.

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e81/GruuB/2008-08-1023-18-05_0117.jpg)

The first pic is before I washed the block.

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e81/GruuB/2008-08-1023-07-54_0115.jpg)

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e81/GruuB/2008-08-1023-10-58_0114.jpg)
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Biggsy on August 10, 2008, 06:17:30 pm
You'd get similar rim kindness with Kool Stops.

What'd be interested to know from anyone who's used both brands is: do Swisstops stop you any better to justify the extra expense?  The price is very high, innit?
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: tatanab on August 10, 2008, 06:32:40 pm
What'd be interested to know from anyone who's used both brands is: do Swisstops stop you any better to justify the extra expense?
I have both.  About 3 months ago I bought some Swiss Stops because I have one machine that just does not brake so well for some reason.  I bought them having read rave reviews; to quote one "it was like throwing an anchor out the back".  Truthfully I detect no difference.

Are they kind to rims?  I've not used the green Swiss Stops long enough to say, but I'd say the Kool Stops are pretty good in that respect.  I think that both Swiss Stops and Kool Stops are very much better than original Shimano or Campag blocks.

Before anybody comments- yes my brakes are set up correctly, I've been doing it for 40 odd years and I do know what I am doing.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: GruB on August 10, 2008, 06:42:56 pm
I agree. Koolstops on the TCR stop just fine and are very kind to the Mavic rims.
Swissstops on the MonstaThorn, stop just fine and are very kind to the DT Swiss rims.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Mrs Pingu on August 11, 2008, 02:29:32 pm
Hmmm, this is becoming expensive.
On the 'tart up the commuter' theory I seem to have gone from 'get new wheels & transmission'  to 'my brakes suck: buy new disc able fork, fit disc brake, shotblast and re-powder coat frame then get new wheels & transmission'.  :o
££££££££
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Wascally Weasel on August 11, 2008, 02:40:26 pm
When I was in the Alps earlier in the year, I noticed that my pads were a bit worn and bought some new ones - I only had a choice of either Swiss Stops or some very cheap ones already in cassettes,

I opted for the 26 euro Swiss Stops all weather pads and have to say that I noticed a marked improvement over the Dura ace pads they replaced, particularly in the wet.

When the pads wear out in the 105 brakes I have on my commuting bike, I'll definitely get something as good as the Swiss Stops, I like being confident in my braking power, especially in the wet.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Jacomus on August 11, 2008, 02:58:43 pm
My views of SS green flash

SwissStop Green Flash pads (DA Type) (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=6801.0)
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Biggsy on August 11, 2008, 04:46:06 pm
Thanks for that, J-r-J.  I should give them a go sometime.  Such a high price for such small simple items (that wear out) is outrageous, though.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Jacomus on August 11, 2008, 04:52:39 pm
Thanks for that, J-r-J.  I should give them a go sometime.  Such a high price for such small simple items (that wear out) is outrageous, though.

It isn't very much really is it?

£20 for 2 pairs of inserts (i.e. 4 pads)

They look as though they will last very well, GruB would be able to testify to their longevity better than me, they are excellent to use, and are nice to your rims... etc

Thats the same price as taking your partner to see a movie, except they last a lot longer!
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Biggsy on August 11, 2008, 04:57:43 pm
£20 for four little bits of rubbery stuff is taking the piss.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Jacomus on August 11, 2008, 05:09:37 pm
£20 for four little bits of rubbery stuff is taking the piss.

Well don't buy them then!

Why not try these (http://www.decathlon.co.uk/EN/road-brake-pads-3889977/) they're shit and made from a combo of sandpaper and cheese, only less effective. They came on Emily's bike as OE, and were full of bits of rim after the first couple of stops.

It's your money and your bike.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Biggsy on August 11, 2008, 05:16:24 pm
I might end up buying them, but that doesn't stop me having a moan! :)

Actually I've got to repeat myself because I so outraged at the price: £20 for four brake block refills is taking the piss!  That's got to be one of the most outrageous prices in cycling history!

I just hope they are really are better than Kool Stops.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Jacomus on August 11, 2008, 05:19:16 pm
I might end up buying them, but that doesn't stop me having a moan! :)

Actually I've got to repeat myself because I so outraged at the price: £20 for four brake blocks is taking the piss!  That's got to be one of the most outrageous prices in cycling history!

I just hope they are really are better than Kool Stops.

I'm not convinced it is outrageous - £20 for the most important part of your bike once your moving, the part that makes you stop again.

For me, their performance is worth their price, IMO KS Salmons were overpriced for their performance.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: mattc on August 11, 2008, 05:25:39 pm
I'm not convinced it is outrageous - £20 for the most important part of your bike once your moving, the part that makes you stop again.
Well you might argue it's the calipers themselves that are important - and they don't cost a lot more than the pads!
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Biggsy on August 11, 2008, 05:38:20 pm
You can be quite safe with average bog standard brake blocks, but better ones increase enjoyment as well as rim life.  OK, for that, I'm willing to have the piss taken out of me!
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Arno on August 21, 2011, 07:16:25 pm
50 minutes wet commute on Thursday, I started with new clean wheels. The rear brake had Koolstop black pads, very noisy and as the pic shows, quite messy

(http://www.lowbutfast.webspace.virginmedia.com/P1020388.jpg)


the front one had Koolstop Salmon.....

(http://www.lowbutfast.webspace.virginmedia.com/P1020390.jpg)



Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Biggsy on August 21, 2011, 07:27:29 pm
Yebut rear rims tend to get messier than fronts anyway for obscure reasons.

A better test would be to have salmon on one side and black on the other.  Not that it's worth bothering.  I have sixteen Kool Stop salmon pads on my four bikes.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Jurek on August 21, 2011, 07:29:09 pm
I have sixteen Kool Stop salmon pads on my four bikes.

That's the way to do it!  :D
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: fuzzy (retd.) AAGE on August 22, 2011, 01:08:01 pm
50 minutes wet commute on Thursday, I started with new clean wheels. The rear brake had Koolstop black pads, very noisy and as the pic shows, quite messy
(http://www.lowbutfast.webspace.virginmedia.com/P1020388.jpg)

Valve core nipple thingy looks a bit slack.....
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: токамак on August 22, 2011, 01:22:18 pm
Yebut rear rims tend to get messier than fronts anyway for obscure reasons.

This is true, in wet conditions the front tyre flicks up a load of mucky, gritty, spray, which the rear wheel passes through. The result is that the rear wheel takes more of a hammering under wet braking.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Arno on August 22, 2011, 02:53:15 pm
50 minutes wet commute on Thursday, I started with new clean wheels. The rear brake had Koolstop black pads, very noisy and as the pic shows, quite messy
(http://www.lowbutfast.webspace.virginmedia.com/P1020388.jpg)

Valve core nipple thingy looks a bit slack.....
mmm the tire was about to get inflated... and some day I'll align the inner tube properly to get the valve at the right angle.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Arno on August 22, 2011, 03:15:59 pm
Yebut rear rims tend to get messier than fronts anyway for obscure reasons.

This is true, in wet conditions the front tyre flicks up a load of mucky, gritty, spray, which the rear wheel passes through. The result is that the rear wheel takes more of a hammering under wet braking.

A lot of the powdery black substance deposited on the rear rim and tyre looks like its made of dissolved black brake pad though. There were no mudguards on the bike. I would have tried a black pad in front if I hadn't binned it already.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Biggsy on August 22, 2011, 03:29:38 pm
Most of the black or grey powdery substance is aluminium from the rim itself.  Sprayed up grit makes the brake pad more abbrasive, so it grinds the rim more.  I get plenty of grey muck when it's very wet when using salmon pads as well - rear and front, but more so on the rear.

You'd still get grey muck (ie. rim wear) even if the brake pads were pure white.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: fuzzy (retd.) AAGE on August 22, 2011, 03:32:50 pm
50 minutes wet commute on Thursday, I started with new clean wheels. The rear brake had Koolstop black pads, very noisy and as the pic shows, quite messy
(http://www.lowbutfast.webspace.virginmedia.com/P1020388.jpg)

Valve core nipple thingy looks a bit slack.....
mmm the tire was about to get inflated... and some day I'll align the inner tube properly to get the valve at the right angle.

Righto!
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: MacB on August 22, 2011, 06:09:23 pm
cough - disc brakes - cough
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: corshamjim on August 22, 2011, 08:24:26 pm
Ahem.  Drum Brakes.  Sniff.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: salar55 on August 22, 2011, 08:44:26 pm
Bought a bulk buy of replacement brake pads for magura  hs 33, at York Rally some years ago .  They were binned, crap compared to the maguras (swisstop ). Went thro a front rim on the tandem in a few weeks big mistake, expensive pads work out cheaper over time.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Crepello on August 22, 2011, 09:10:34 pm
Can anyone tell me whether Koolstop salmons reduce rim wear over the other colours, or are they just supposed to be better in the wet? I've used grey before (and I've got black on order) and didn't recall any difference, ie, they were good.

Cheers
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: saturn on August 22, 2011, 09:33:00 pm
With the exception of the dual compounds supplied with the shoes I've only ever used Salmon. I can't think of a reason to use anything else, they don't seem to wear fast and when it rains (as it inevitably will) you've got the best ones on.
Title: Re: Why you should use decent pads for your rim brakes
Post by: Biggsy on August 22, 2011, 10:38:49 pm
Can anyone tell me whether Koolstop salmons reduce rim wear over the other colours, or are they just supposed to be better in the wet?

Kool Stop describe them as "for wet conditions", without saying what that means.  I find both Salmon and Dual Compound good in all conditions - except extremely wet conditions.  No blocks I've ever tried are good in extremely wet conditions.

I haven't tried the all-black Kool Stops.  I have tried many, many other makes.  Kool Stops pick up less grit and metal than the rest.  This is the main reason I stick wih them and recommend them.