Author Topic: Gear choice for new bike build.  (Read 2196 times)

Gear choice for new bike build.
« on: 16 June, 2018, 08:48:29 pm »
For decades 28/38/48 paired with 13-28 cassette, latterly 12-27 (never  using the  12T sprocket)  has been my choice.

AFAIU I can still get 105 10 speed  triple STI levers and 10 speed 105 rear mech which will now have to be medium cage.

Should I move to 11 speed and a super compact double say Spa Cycles 46/30 and and a 12-32 cassette? I'm thinking future spares and repairs.



Re: Gear choice for new bike build.
« Reply #1 on: 16 June, 2018, 10:36:09 pm »
Should I move to 11 speed and a super compact double say Spa Cycles 46/30 and and a 12-32 cassette? I'm thinking future spares and repairs.

I did something very similar to this when I built my new bike up. I used a Praxis Works 48/32 chainset and a 12-32 cassette, 11 speed. Works really well for me. I have used the new Ultegra R8000 RD which can handle a 34, might just go for that at some point.

Re: Gear choice for new bike build.
« Reply #2 on: 17 June, 2018, 01:26:20 am »
you don't say what the bike is to be used for or type of cassette you have been using; 9s or 10s.  But arguably if you have not used one of the sprockets then it may as well have been one short of that..?.. ;)

So realistically you could use 8s, 9s, 10s with a triple and obtain as many or more useful gears as you have been using, or perhaps go with 2x11.

Personally I would prefer the triple because the double would usually leave me running cross-chained more of the time, and the double-shift is larger with a typical double setup. There is also the matter of years of habituation to a triple setup to contend with.

In terms of shifters you can get 8s,9s, 10s triple STIs and if you want a low-cost, easy cable maintenance option there are models with 'washing line' cable routing.  I would imagine that even if these go NLA new, you will be able to buy functional used units on e-bay for at least 15 years or so.

In terms of running costs chains and cassettes for 8s are very inexpensive, 9s less so, and 10s/11s less so again.

There is also a double-whammy in operation, in that 10s and 11s transmission parts are somewhat less durable than 8s/9s ones.  So in extremis if they are twice the cost and last half as long (say) then the costs of keeping the bike in chains and cassettes are x4 as much.

It can seem more like a triple-whammy in that the RD pulleys on 10s and 11s have narrower bushings (so wear out more quickly and the system is less tolerant anyway) and the cables are more finicky and need more maintenance with more speeds too.

In fact there is another issue which is that 11s road cassettes use a longer freehub body and this results in more dish and a weaker wheel in 130mm OLN form. Weirdly MTB 11s is different and uses the same 8/9/10s freehub body as always so 135mm OLN wheels running MTB 11s cassettes are just as strong as they always have been, but MTB 11s cassettes all have very large sprockets and don't make sense to use with a triple.

Shimano 'road' 10s (with one exception) uses the same shift ratio as 8s and 9s and the ever-shorter cable pull per click caused so many problems in 10s, in combination with underbar cable routing that shimano used a different shift ratio for 11s road and didn't even bother to try the same shift ratio with MTB 10s or 11s, both of which are different again.

10s Tiagra 4700 is an anomalous system in that it (and it only amongst 10s systems) uses the same shift ratio as 'road' 11s which means that it is slightly less fussy about cables and so forth. It pulls ~2.8mm per click, which happens to be nigh-on identical to shimano 8s. You can get 4700 shifters in 3x10 form.

So there are a few solutions that perhaps you might not have considered.  For example

1. You could buy 3x10 tiagra 4700 shifters and (using a 4700 RD or an 11s one) have a 3x10 system. [I would use a 135mm OLN rear hub to keep the wheel dish sensible].
2. If you get cheesed off with the running costs of 3x10 then simply by using an 8s or 9s (or other road 10s) RD  you can convert the system to 3x8, because the shifter has the correct cable pull for this to work.

At present for a touring build I am considering a triple with 10s shifters and an RD that is not matched to the shifters. I will modify the RD to make it match the shifters. I am also considering using a 7s freehub body fitted with a shortened 9s cassette (so 8 sprockets instead of 9) because there are no end of 9s cassettes that I like but have no use for the smallest sprocket, which can very simply be omitted if the cassette is fitted to a 7s freehub body.  The elimination of the (useless, dish-eating) small sprocket means a big reduction in wheel dish which means that the rear wheel is intrinsically stronger so it can be built lighter for a given service. A 135mm oln rear hub with a 7s freehub body can be spaced so that the wheel has hardly any dish on it at all. Built with a ~485g rim such as wheel is practically as strong as a 130mm 10s hub with a ~600g touring rim.

So anyway you have plenty of choices. Arguably a 3x10 system has little advantage over a 3x9 system; you either get another gear ratio (that by definition and the law of diminishing returns you won't use much even if it is a useful size) or a bigger overlap between the ranges offered by each chainring. Most 10s and 11s cassettes start with an 11T sprocket or a 12T one, which you probably wouldn't use anyway.

So there is more than one way of skinning this particular cat. Second guessing what shimano will do (from the POV of spare parts in the future) is IMHO fairly pointless; they have just announced 12s and that uses all different parts to 11s; in a few year's time 11s could look like just another obsolete gearing system anyway. In the meantime they are still launching new products in apparently 'obsolete' formats such as 8s; for example they recently launched Claris 8s shifters with underbartape cable routing...

cheers


Re: Gear choice for new bike build.
« Reply #3 on: 17 June, 2018, 07:30:18 am »
Well that is comprehensive and logical, plenty to read and digest. Thank you.

Chris N

Re: Gear choice for new bike build.
« Reply #4 on: 17 June, 2018, 09:01:37 am »
43/17 :thumbsup:

Re: Gear choice for new bike build.
« Reply #5 on: 17 June, 2018, 09:45:19 am »

Phil W

Re: Gear choice for new bike build.
« Reply #6 on: 17 June, 2018, 07:15:39 pm »
I have just built up a warranty replacement frame as 3 x 10. I have changed to Dura Ace bar end shifters. Friction for front triple and indexed for rear. On the rear I have a XT "9 speed" derailleur. I run the shifter cable under the bar tape just on the straight bit of the drop, before it exits. This is purely so holding the bars there is easier rather having a cable interfere with grip.   It is some of the cleanest most positive shifting I have had on a road bike ever.  If you go for Dura Ace 9 speed bar ends I believe the rear can be indexed or friction. So you could choose a 7/8/9 cassette as you please swapping with impunity.

If you want a Shimano 10 speed 105 ST-5700 rear shifter as either a spare or replacement I have one for sale https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=108392.0

Re: Gear choice for new bike build.
« Reply #7 on: 17 June, 2018, 10:43:13 pm »
Phil, funnily enough that setup is just what I am now  planning to use. What triple chainset do you have please? 

Phil W

Re: Gear choice for new bike build.
« Reply #8 on: 17 June, 2018, 11:04:12 pm »
I went for the SPA Cycles XD-2 touring triple. It has no decals and is a smart polished silver. It comes with the self extracting crank bolts fitted. This is mated to the Stronglight 110mm JP400 bottom bracket. The front derailleur is a Shimano 105 "10 speed" triple.

https://spacycles.co.uk/m2b0s109p2830/SPA-CYCLES-XD-2-Touring-Triple-Chainset-With-Stronglight-Zicral-Rings

Re: Gear choice for new bike build.
« Reply #9 on: 18 June, 2018, 08:52:07 pm »
I'm going for a clone..

Phil W

Re: Gear choice for new bike build.
« Reply #10 on: 18 June, 2018, 09:33:59 pm »
In which case you will want to use blue bar tape and the grey Shimano SP41 cable outer ;D

Re: Gear choice for new bike build.
« Reply #11 on: 18 June, 2018, 10:43:37 pm »
Only ... the gears, it's a trike!

Phil W

Re: Gear choice for new bike build.
« Reply #12 on: 19 June, 2018, 05:45:44 pm »
He he.

Re: Gear choice for new bike build.
« Reply #13 on: 19 June, 2018, 06:27:37 pm »
I went for the SPA Cycles XD-2 touring triple. It has no decals and is a smart polished silver. It comes with the self extracting crank bolts fitted. This is mated to the Stronglight 110mm JP400 bottom bracket. The front derailleur is a Shimano 105 "10 speed" triple.

https://spacycles.co.uk/m2b0s109p2830/SPA-CYCLES-XD-2-Touring-Triple-Chainset-With-Stronglight-Zicral-Rings

If you don't need a middle ring smaller than 38T there's also the RD2 Road Triple (130mm/74mm BCD):

https://spacycles.co.uk/m2b0s109p3534/SPA-CYCLES-RD-2-Triple-Chainset-with-Zicral-Rings

Strangely they only seem to offer the silver chainset with black chainrings, but they do offer the silver cranks separately and you could put silver Zircal or TA Specialities rings on it:
https://spacycles.co.uk/m2b0s109p3531/SPA-CYCLES-RD-2-Road-Cranks

Was thinking of perhaps getting silver RD-2 cranks and putting 48/38/28 or possibly 50/38/28 on a road bike build I'm planning
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway

Re: Gear choice for new bike build.
« Reply #14 on: 19 June, 2018, 06:51:22 pm »
.....Was thinking of perhaps getting silver RD-2 cranks and putting 48/38/28 or possibly 50/38/28 on a road bike build I'm planning

is that enough different to be worthwhile vs the 30-40-50 setup you already have?

cheers


Re: Gear choice for new bike build.
« Reply #15 on: 19 June, 2018, 07:35:23 pm »
.....Was thinking of perhaps getting silver RD-2 cranks and putting 48/38/28 or possibly 50/38/28 on a road bike build I'm planning

is that enough different to be worthwhile vs the 30-40-50 setup you already have?


Depends if the 175mm cranks on the Campagnolo Comp Triple chainset I have ends up feeling too long or not... :-)

Still hoping to find the same in 170mm...
Old enough to know better, but young enough to do it anyway