A new Mercian (mine) is born

[Oxford_Guy]

He did also say after riding for a bit I can go back for further adjustments/assessment as required for no extra charge, so if the saddle tilt isn't helping, can try something else.

Btw they did change the quill stem for no extra charge, and that was quite an involved job.

[Paul H]

I don’t think you’ve given Mercian a fair chance, they’ve built a bike based on the fitting you had with them, IMO you ought to ride it for a few thousand miles before changing anything, then if it’s still not working go back to them. 
I know it’s all in the eye of the beholder, but if you wanted something of the proportions in the latest photo they’d have built something different.
 

[Oxford_Guy]

I don’t think you’ve given Mercian a fair chance, they’ve built a bike based on the fitting you had with them, IMO you ought to ride it for a few thousand miles before changing anything, then if it’s still not working go back to them. 
I know it’s all in the eye of the beholder, but if you wanted something of the proportions in the latest photo they’d have built something different.

Yes, but all their measurements were done on a jig, not my bike with real components on it (some of which seem to have differed from their nominal spec, like the stem). I didn't even have any SPD-SL shoes when I went for the original bike fit either. The seatpost, saddle, bars, levers, pedals were all different.

The bike fit guy did say he thought the sizing of frame itself was spot on, though

[Paul H]

The bike fit guy did say he thought the sizing of frame itself was spot on, though

I can’t see how it can be if it needs to be set up like that.  Either the fit isn’t as intended or the frame is wrong, it wouldn’t have left Mercian like that.  In the end if you’re happy with it that’s all that matters, but something has gone wrong and as it’s a different sort of bike I still think you haven’t given up those differences a fair trial.

[Oxford_Guy]

I don’t think you’ve given Mercian a fair chance, they’ve built a bike based on the fitting you had with them, IMO you ought to ride it for a few thousand miles before changing anything, then if it’s still not working go back to them. 

The previous fit gave me increased lower backache after 10 miles and neck ache after 25. Something had to change, well before '"a few thousand miles"

[giropaul]

I’m trying to be helpful, so please bear with me.
My immediate reaction to your post-fit pictures is that the bars seem extraordinary high - hence the amount of stem showing.
I’d typically expect a position that roughly placed 30% of weight on arms, rest on saddle. Even as a very chunky near 70 year old I run an 8cm drop from saddle height to height to the centre of the bars. The modern trend is for a huge amount more drop.
Is the drop on the Mercian post-fit similar to the Hewitt? If it is then I’d respectfully suggest that the Hewitt has an e tremendous “ touring” position, but that is the one you are used to.
From your pictures with the bike you don’t seem to have an extreme body physiology.
That leads me to suggest that you might need to get used to a different position to maximise performance. I think you have said you do yoga? Maybe some more core work?
You have said that you want the Mercian for “ fast club rides”. I’d suggest that being so upright might not be ideal for 20mph+.
In all, I think the Mercian is an ideal frame for you, but that your current position is non-optimal.
I hesitate to try to validate my thoughts, but on the Internet anyone can give random advice. In the bike fit world there are many mainstream and more extreme views. All I can say is that riders I have looked after, in teams I have worked for, have won many professional stage races - and presented me with their winners’ jerseys to recognise my input.
I’m writing all this because I want you to get comfortable and efficient on your bike/s and enjoy your new purchase.

[Oxford_Guy]

Thanks Giropaul, I appreciate that you're trying to help. I'm quite aware that I need to do some work on strengthening my core, part of the reason I'm now doing Pilates classes, I'm also about to see a new physio to try to address the underlying causes number of on-going back and neck issues, which previous physios have failed to really do. If the Pilates and exercises from the physio turn out to make a difference, then hopefully I'll be able to lower the bars a bit without discomfort, and adjust the overall fit.

I'm not very happy that I'm currently having to compromise the optimal setup of the bike in order to be able to ride without discomfort, but think I need to get my body into better shape before I can change this.

[tatanab]

I’m trying to be helpful, so please bear with me.
My immediate reaction to your post-fit pictures is that the bars seem extraordinary high - hence the amount of stem showing.
I’d typically expect a position that roughly placed 30% of weight on arms, rest on saddle. Even as a very chunky near 70 year old I run an 8cm drop from saddle height to height to the centre of the bars. The modern trend is for a huge amount more drop.

The drop from saddle to bars is similar to my very comfortable position.  I have a drop of about an inch (2.5cm) from the saddle to the top of the stem.  I am 67 years old and this is not greatly different to my time trialling position 50 years ago except that in those days we rode very deep drops (GB Ventoux and Tourmalet).

2 other comments -I ride Berthoud Aspin saddles, lower down the pecking order from yours, and I set them up pan flat - level to the top tube.  Yours looks to be angled downwards.  Secondly, for my taste the frame is a bit small (assuming saddle to pedal distance is correct for the rider).  We used to reckon a fist should fit between the top tube and the saddle rails.  But that is modern fashion to some extent, for example standover was never an issue until MTB riders found it a problem especially with their high bottom brackets..

My riding style is that I spend 99% of my time on the hoods and tops of the bars with arms bent which forms a sort of suspension.  Modern fashion seems to be to ride on the drops (shallow for modern fashion) with locked elbows.

I've never done a bike fit in my 50 plus years of riding.  Riding position was developed by watching and talking to club mates.  I am not sure a bike fit would be a good thing for me because I am too cynical about the fit following fashion.  Most of my frames are fully custom built, often using measurements from an existing comfortable set up.

Good luck, I am sure that you will adapt yourself and your set up over time and achieve  comfortable ride.

[Brucey]

FWIW I could write something very similar to the above, the difference being that my frame size/riding position reached a state of equilibrium a few years later than tatanab, so my idea of the right racing frame size is probably  a  bit smaller than his is.  Still nothing like as small as the Mercian in this thread though.


Frame designs are subject to the whims of fashion, and have been getting smaller for decades, even with a horizontal top tube.  By the time Hinault was battling Lemond in the TdF I was busy thinking their frames were a bit on the small side, and that the stem would be at or above the maximum, and/or might flex unduly.

This created some conflict especially if you wanted your handlebar tops only a little dropped vs the saddle.  I even had one frame built with an extended steerer, such that the headset had a 3/4" spacer in it.  [The stem I used had a conical wedge and it still finished well below the steerer threads BTW].

I'd have bought  a slightly larger frame and I'd have set it up with a flatter saddle and handlebars at least as high. But that is just me.

cheers

[drossall]

I am not sure a bike fit would be a good thing for me because I am too cynical about the fit following fashion.

It's not that long since Cycling Weekly did a sort of comparative test of different bike fitters. The killer for me was that they did not all provide the same answer - although I'm sure that using any of them would be better than doing it yourself without advice.

However, traditionally that advice has come through the club system, and I'm not sure that a bike fit is worth the cost over that approach. I did, as a youngster, get a bit of free advice from the well-known coach Harold Nelson, when I was having back trouble as a new rider.

I tend to imagine that advice from experienced riders will tend to get you into the same range as advice from bike fitters. Maybe that should be done as a test - send someone to some clubs and other experienced types, as well as to some professional fitters, and compare those results properly.

[giropaul]

I am not sure a bike fit would be a good thing for me because I am too cynical about the fit following fashion.

It's not that long since Cycling Weekly did a sort of comparative test of different bike fitters. The killer for me was that they did not all provide the same answer - although I'm sure that using any of them would be better than doing it yourself without advice.

However, traditionally that advice has come through the club system, and I'm not sure that a bike fit is worth the cost over that approach. I did, as a youngster, get a bit of free advice from the well-known coach Harold Nelson, when I was having back trouble as a new rider.

I tend to imagine that advice from experienced riders will tend to get you into the same range as advice from bike fitters. Maybe that should be done as a test - send someone to some clubs and other experienced types, as well as to some professional fitters, and compare those results properly.

“H” was a legend. People just knew about him - no adverts, websites, blogs etc - you just knew about H!

[drossall]

Fortunately, I knew someone who knew about him. I was a teenager almost entirely lacking in any kind of talent, so he'd have been wasting his time coaching me. However, he was very willing to stick me on some rollers, have a look, and give me some advice.

[Oxford_Guy]

I'd have bought  a slightly larger frame and I'd have set it up with a flatter saddle and handlebars at least as high. But that is just me.

With hindsight, if I'd known how the frame was actually going to turn out in practice and what stem length  and seat post length was going to be needed for me to fit on it, I would have insisted on at least a 54cm (c-t) frame, possibly with a 1cm extension to the head tube (even though that doesn't look that great). As it was, I trusted in Mercian to get the measurements correct for me - I'm not a frame builder and didn't know how it was going to turn out

In fact originally I was actually spec-ed for just a 52cm frame, with a 1cm head tube extension, but I asked them to increase it to 53cm, but without the extension - so originally the frame was going to be even smaller!

So I have a frame that's too small. The question is what now to do about it...

[giropaul]

Just for interest, I dug into the Forum depths and found a picture of your Hewitt. That looks a similar size to your Mercian, and you do have a lot more stackers than most people would have under your stem. By modern standards/taste you still have not a lot of seat pin out on your Mercian.
At the moment, for reasons you have explained, you are riding very high at the front. It may also be that this is what you are used to from your Hewitt. I’m not saying that it isn’t right for you, but it is unusual. If Mercian built a frame for your current Hewitt dimensions it would need to be sloping, or have a big extended head tube a la Urs Freuler. Personally, if it was me, I’d get a decent bike- focussed Physio and look at your flexibility etc. I’d recommend Martin Earley but he’s in the very rural parts of Staffordshire, but ask around the racing lads in Oxford. Isn’t Zappi based there - he’d probably know someone?

[Oxford_Guy]

Personally, if it was me, I’d get a decent bike- focussed Physio and look at your flexibility etc. I’d recommend Martin Earley but he’s in the very rural parts of Staffordshire, but ask around the racing lads in Oxford. Isn’t Zappi based there - he’d probably know someone?

Both the bike fit guy and many from my local cycling club seem to recommend the Bosworth Clinic physios, though it's a bit outside of Oxford itself. https://www.thebosworthclinic.co.uk/

I may give them a go

[giropaul]

Something that has I the past been different between UK and Belgian/French riders - the ratio of spend between the bike and the engine!
Even now, in a Belgian shop it’s typical to find much more nutrition, recovery etc products than in the UK, and even local teams have a doctor and a Physio, probably a nutritionist as well.

[IanN]

Much as I get the aesthetics of what a classic bike should look like (seat pin, height of bars from top tube etc), whether it works for you is dependent on your body shape.
If you have short legs, (or are short), for a comfortable stand over, the showing of seat pin will be proportionally higher (to seat tube length) - given a fixed bottom bracket drop. If you have relatively short arms, you are likely to have higher bars / shorter reach for a given upper body position (e.g. 45 degree back).

Your ability to hold a more aero position for extended periods of time will depend on core strength and tolerance to pain, but making the bike 'look right' in isolation is a bit out of your control.

I'm not going to comment on the previous picture of the OP (!  ), but my Cross Check  looks much like the set up on this Mercian with high seat and bars, but I wouldn't like less standover. Latest build has a slightly sloping top tube and long head tube to avoid loads of spacers.

That said, I don't think rigid adherence to the (arbitrary?) KOPS standard helps, as (for me) it put me higher and more forwards than my previous more 'touring' position - so seat and bars go up. Am I faster, more comfortable or have fewer aches? No. Worse? No.

The OP's bike looks fantastic 

[Brucey]

Hinault and Lemond in 1986



Hinault's handlebars probably couldn't be set any higher, not with the Cinelli stem he was using.

A decade or so earlier than this and the frames would have been at least 1cm larger, probably with slightly deeper drops to the handlebars.

note that in any case the tops wouldn't have been more than about 1-1/2" lower than the saddle, and had been that way since the 1950s, in professional racing. If you are not a professional racer, having the handlebars higher than that is fine.

 Modern ideas about handlebar height are pretty loopy IMHO, and possibly arise from the (over) use of the hoods as the default riding position.

cheers

[Oxford_Guy]

I definitely would benefit from some more dynamic core work, also think my hip flexors have got a bit shortened and on my left side (-only, bizarrely) my hamstrings are quite tight. Until recently have not really done much exercise other than cycling (and a little bit of yoga, and more recently Pilates). I wasn't even walking much. About 3 months ago I started to go on frequent long-ish brisk walks (e.g.  2.5 miles at lunchtimes) and also started the "coach to 5k" running programme (after not running for about 30 years), which I found really tough initially, partly to try to get some more balanced use of my muscles. I think this had helped a little with my back problems, it's also helped me to lose a bit of weight, so think I may persevere with that, though I enjoy cycling more.

IanH - I am indeed quite short (172cm / 5'8") with not particularly long legs or arms, so what you've said makes some sense.

[Oxford_Guy]

BTW does my stem look beyond the max insertion point? I find it a bit difficult to tell with my Nitto stem, as it doesn't have a horizontal line as such, just the words and some vertical lines - you can see this in the close-ups I took of the stem in this post: https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=112818.msg2427612#msg2427612

If it's over, I would want to lower it a bit, for safety's sake.

[andyoxon]

Yes, the 'max.ht' lines are exposed - needs taking down a tad IMO.

[Oxford_Guy]

Yes, the 'max.ht' lines are exposed - needs taking down a tad IMO.

So should all of those vertical lines be below the headset nut?

[JonB]

So should all of those vertical lines be below the headset nut?

Yes, as Andy said it only needs to go down a bit, it might be okay where it is as it's so close but if you want to be sure those vertical lines should not be exposed.

[Oxford_Guy]

So should all of those vertical lines be below the headset nut?

Yes, as Andy said it only needs to go down a bit, it might be okay where it is as it's so close but if you want to be sure those vertical lines should not be exposed.

Thanks, so think it needs to go down about 0.75cm

[Cudzoziemiec]

If you have short legs, (or are short), for a comfortable stand over, the showing of seat pin will be proportionally higher (to seat tube length) - given a fixed bottom bracket drop.

I'd have said that ideally the bottom bracket drop shouldn't be fixed. Short legs probably need shorter cranks and a lower bottom bracket, so more drop (or else a similar drop with smaller wheels). I'm not sure how much bb drop is varied by custom builders? However, as the frame is built, the drop is now fixed, so this doesn't really help!