Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Audax => Topic started by: JordanCarroll on 06 January, 2013, 12:31:49 am
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A place to air your grievances following the incredibly quick sell out of the 2013 LEL.
What is your excuse?
P.s. those with the powers that be may be opening up more spaces, but shhh! :P
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I agonised long and hard over it but in the end I thought others would appreciate it more than I would.
Altruistic to the last, me. O:-)
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That sir, is truly admirable :p
with 7000miles ahead of you this year sounds like you'll be busy enough!
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Not a whinge, just an observation.
I realise it's the 21st century, but it does seem entry has been limited to those with constant access to email and access to enter on line. It was sold out before our local library was even open.
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That sir, is truly admirable :p
with 7000miles ahead of you this year sounds like you'll be busy enough!
Indeed. With all those miles to ride I couldn't possibly dedicate several days to LEL.
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see quote below from previous post:
I could whinge and moan and I did quite a bit last night but a new day dawns and life goes on......
I was definitely one who thought that the process would be drawn out longer (whilst also being 24hrs out as in earlier post) and was initially very cheesed off/upset/grumpy when the email link didn't do anything and I found out that I was 12hrs+ too late to get in. ::-) :-[
But ultimately it just means Danial and the LEL team had/have put together a very very efficient system and I should've tracked it better. So my year will change, maybe I'll get round to doing a LeJog (Audax stylee) or look for some other long Randonee, don't know but to cobble together two old sayings "Sh1t happens so no use crying over the spilt milk".
Might even think of volunteering if I can get round work (though that problem was there even if I'd got in to ride).
Well done all who organised this great event, well done all who've got in. The team could never have pleased everyone so they are always going to be vilified by some but I won't add to that, despite my frustrations it wasn't their fault it was mine.
Might have to go out and add an 'N+1' to relieve my frustrations.........hey that's a great excuse so thanks Danial and team I may just be purchasing a new bike because of LEL ;D ;D
Feel much better now.. :thumbsup:
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As I struggled round 30 miles yesterday LEL might be a touch ambitious!
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Not a whinge, just an observation.
same here
I realise it's the 21st century, but it does seem entry has been limited to those with constant access to email and access to enter on line. It was sold out before our local library was even open.
this is the way AUK is going.It's probably due in large part to the fact (or supposition on my part) that those folk who are the pulse & heartbeat of the organisation are IT educated;another realisation of the 21st century;& electronic comms is a natural media for them.
I'm not IT educated,don't do paypal & the like,struggle with emails & prefer audax entry using stamps & envelopes.Such ignorance can be a disadvantage.I have learnt the minimum to cope with my own needs but am fortunate to have a laptop & broadband at home:without this I simply would be unable to involve myself to the limited extent that I do.
those folk who are the pulse & heartbeat of the organisation :who we should be slow to criticise & recognise & appreciate that they spend a lorralorra of their spare time making all this happen.
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P.s. those with the powers that be may be opening up more spaces, but shhh! :P
I trust that this might turn out to be an imaginative figment...
Non-arrival of 'entries are now open' emails; an arbitrary advance of the registration opening date and time... let's not invite any other 'order + counter-order = disorder' into the system. To those who are registered may their good fortune continue through preparation and successful completion of the brevet. We who, for whatever reason, failed to catch the selector's eye should not be teased with any 'just maybes' (IMHO).
Anyway, the organisers have more to do now than designing criteria on which to adjudicate (over 500 :o according to Danial) hard luck stories.
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+1 to Aidens reply wherever its gone & if you want to guarantee a place at the next LEL volunteer to work at one of the controls like I did on the last event.
http://www.londonedinburghlondon.com/volunteer
I couldn't ride last time so I spent a week in Washingborough with Keef & Sue. Preparing food, washing up & cleaning, control duties, lending a Spaniard a water bottle cage, sampling the local hostleries & basically helping in any way I could & it was a great experience. If for any reason I can't ride this year I will be helping out wherever I'm needed.
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+1 to Aidens reply wherever its gone & if you want to guarantee a place at the next LEL volunteer to work at one of the controls like I did on the last event.
http://www.londonedinburghlondon.com/volunteer
I couldn't ride last time so I spent a week in Washingborough with Keef & Sue. Preparing food, washing up & cleaning, control duties, lending a Spaniard a water bottle cage, sampling the local hostleries & basically helping in any way I could & it was a great experience. If for any reason I can't ride this year I will be helping out wherever I'm needed.
I deleted it, as on reflection it was a bit harsh on someone who is obviously very dissapointed. And I posted in a bad mood because Im supposed to be out Audaxing today but real life got in the way ;D Although the point I made that if it was that important to him he would have been sitting at his computer at 1.00am and there was loads of places left.
If I hadnt have got in I had already put my name down to volunteer, so would wholeheartedly agree with Fungus and urge people to volunteer to help
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A place to air your grievances following the incredibly quick sell out of the 2013 LEL.
What is your excuse?
P.s. those with the powers that be may be opening up more spaces, but shhh! :P
I was ... away doing an audax.
Can anyone give me one good reason why britain's flagship audax event can only offer less than a fifth of the number of places that france's can? Apparently AUK has got massive cash reserves so it's not like it can't afford it.
I don't blame anybody for it but if LEL doesn't want me, it's it's loss. ;)
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LEL is about 100 years younger than PBP. LEL doubled its capacity since the previous edition, which is pretty good in my books.
I was one who thought LEL might struggle to fill up but was spectacularly wrong (not the first time that has happened).
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A place to air your grievances following the incredibly quick sell out of the 2013 LEL.
What is your excuse?
P.s. those with the powers that be may be opening up more spaces, but shhh! :P
I was ... away doing an audax.
between 10pm and 11am?
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between 10pm and 11am?
i was in the travelodge at that time yes
and it did have an internet computer but it didn't work.
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It's posible - people frequently travel somewhere to do a distant audax the next day. Not everyone has a web phone and not all B&Bs and hotel rooms have the net. I have no complaints as I didn't try to enter.
Edit: Cross-post with Ben.
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As the old saying goes, shit happens. Move on.
I decided a while ago that a summer assault on CS10A was a far better option for a guy with a young family and that is what is planned. There are lots of alternatives.
Very well done to the organisers for their efforts so far!
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between 10pm and 11am?
i was in the travelodge at that time yes
and it did have an internet computer but it didn't work.
fair dos, get busy on the thread saying LEL will take a further 100 AUK members on a waiting list?
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Can anyone give me one good reason why britain's flagship audax event can only offer less than a fifth of the number of places that france's can? Apparently AUK has got massive cash reserves so it's not like it can't afford it.
I would imagine the effort of organising a PBP-sized LEL would be, er, quite significant.
But no doubt you volunteered huge amounts of your time to help the organisers in the last couple of years and that's why you're disappointed LEL isn't a larger event.
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I thought it would have embarrassed everyone else to have ridden the whole thing at TT pace and finished in two days, so I bowed out.
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Can anyone give me one good reason why britain's flagship audax event can only offer less than a fifth of the number of places that france's can? Apparently AUK has got massive cash reserves so it's not like it can't afford it.
I don't blame anybody for it but if LEL doesn't want me, it's it's loss. ;)
Cash still needs to be herded and spent properly, no small feat across 710km of route.
Another alternative would have been to hand the whole thing over to (eg) Bike Events. And now, instead of posts from people who couldn't get in, we'd be reading posts from people (like me) who couldn't afford the £499 entry fee.
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The UK regulates "events" far more tightly than France. Most big public events have to go through a local authority "Safety Advisory Group", which often imposes significant professional stewarding and (sometimes) policing requirements, which cost an awful lot of money. If the event is licensable it's inevitable, if it's an oddity like Audax then they don't have their claws into you to the same extent, however any organised event places a duty of care on the organisers, and it is generally felt that abiding by the wishes of a SAG is jolly good idea should liability for a nasty become an issue. The bigger the event, the higher the stakes, so the organisers seem to be, very sensibly, keeping things manageable.
I'd suggest (and it's no more than my personal view) that an event involving the sort of risks that LEL does for more than 1000 participants should be run by a professional event management company.
Staying below the radar, whilst employing a proper and thorough risk assessment, is an understandable policy.
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I didn't manage to enter the LEL 2013 whinge thread.
But I have now.
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^Good work, you're halfway there.
My student loan has now rolled in, 2 days too late!
*Refreshes LEL entry page* :p
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The UK regulates "events" far more tightly than France. Most big public events have to go through a local authority "Safety Advisory Group", which often imposes significant professional stewarding and (sometimes) policing requirements, which cost an awful lot of money. If the event is licensable it's inevitable, if it's an oddity like Audax then they don't have their claws into you to the same extent, however any organised event places a duty of care on the organisers, and it is generally felt that abiding by the wishes of a SAG is jolly good idea should liability for a nasty become an issue. The bigger the event, the higher the stakes, so the organisers seem to be, very sensibly, keeping things manageable.
I'd suggest (and it's no more than my personal view) that an event involving the sort of risks that LEL does for more than 1000 participants should be run by a professional event management company.
Staying below the radar, whilst employing a proper and thorough risk assessment, is an understandable policy.
I'm pretty sure "the authorities" know about LEL. It's not like it's being run in secret... if 'most big public events' have to go through a SAG, but LEL doesn't, then there must be some definition as to what a 'big public event' is which LEL comes in below. LEL's already a 'big public event', just obviously not big enough to need a SAG assessment. Besides, what's wrong with costing an awful lot of money, AUK's GOT an awful lot of money. Apparently.
I don't mind about it - I'll do something else, I just thought it was a bit... inaccessible, really - to anybody that didn't happen to be sitting by a computer during a time window a matter of hours long, and I think it shows that AUK can hardly whinge about not many people wanting to do longer events any more either.
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Seems to me that you do not understand how AUK rides are organised -- AUK's surplus funds are not available for LEL. The event is being run by a not for profit company limited by guarantee and it was with some reservations that we were even able to obtain the AUK loans that we needed to do the three years of development work that we have done.
The 2009 event was an organisational shambles - rescued by the efforts of the controllers - who would NOT allow the event to fail.
There was no information at all - repeat No INFORMATION - provided to this team from the 2009 organiser - so we planned for a 50% increase in riders -- but PBP 2011 had no increase on 2007 -- which worried me after 2011 -- had we committed to a level of expenditure that we could not afford.
We had no way of knowing that potential riders would jump from 500ish - to something apparently around 1200 - and even if we could have foreseen this - we just do not have the logistical volunteer support to run a ride of that size - so there were always going to be DISAPPOINTED riders.
So stop acting and posting like a spoilt child - take advantage of Danials offer to AUK members of the chance of a ride if there are enough drop outs -
Oh and by the way - VOLUNTEER - and then you are guaranteed a ride next time
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Seems to me that you do not understand how AUK rides are organised -- AUK's surplus funds are not available for LEL. The event is being run by a not for profit company limited by guarantee and it was with some reservations that we were even able to obtain the AUK loans that we needed to do the three years of development work that we have done.
Clearly!
Is it so radical to suggest it might be nice if they were?
The 2009 event was an organisational shambles - rescued by the efforts of the controllers - who would NOT allow the event to fail.
There was no information at all - repeat No INFORMATION - provided to this team from the 2009 organiser - so we planned for a 50% increase in riders -- but PBP 2011 had no increase on 2007 -- which worried me after 2011 -- had we committed to a level of expenditure that we could not afford.
We had no way of knowing that potential riders would jump from 500ish - to something apparently around 1200 - and even if we could have foreseen this - we just do not have the logistical volunteer support to run a ride of that size - so there were always going to be DISAPPOINTED riders.
While this two-tier system of rides being organised by individuals but overseen by AUK, but not directly organised by AUK, might work for smaller rides, I think larger rides like LEL should be run BY AUK. If it were, then the information from 2009 would be available wouldn't it? Not only that but you wouldn't get this issue of the money "not being available".
So stop acting and posting like a spoilt child - take advantage of Danials offer to AUK members of the chance of a ride if there are enough drop outs -
:o Er - sorry, if it's sycophancy you're after , probably best not clicking on "whinge thread"?
I've already said I don't blame anyone and I'm not criticising you or Danial anybody else organising LEL, so no need to take offence please.
Oh and by the way - VOLUNTEER - and then you are guaranteed a ride next time
I might do, I'll have to see.
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I wasn't aware that if you volunteered it guarantees you a place on the next LEL? (should another happen)
If I don't get on via the waiting list, I'll try help out in some way.
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I wasn't aware that if you volunteered it guarantees you a place on the next LEL? (should another happen)
If I don't get on via the waiting list, I'll try help out in some way.
Apparently it does. I suppose it's also a good way to gauge the general atmosphere and organisation of the event as well.
Another will happen for sure in 2017 (But I don't know who it will be organised by, possibly someone different to this one.)
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There is absolutely no way that the AUK Board would/could organise LEL - they just do not have the time and skills.
I think there is a Will Carling quote that might be relevant.
We got to where we are because a few of us were so upset by the 2009 incompetence that we felt sure we could do better.
We have tried hard and done our best - and produced a much bigger world wide response than we could have predicted --given that we have to rely on volunteers ( and unlike PBP there is no tradition of the control towns committing huge support ) then there is no way that we could have planned a ride of 1000+- -cos what would have happened if we got the finances wrong and lost £30000 -- 2009 cost AUK £5000 - and they certainly had reservations about the new "team" approach - rather than a single organiser.
Given the huge interest -- many more than expected and could be accommodated - there were always going to be disappointed riders -- that is just a fact -- but that was impossible for us to predict - and at the 900ish level - the controllers and their volunteer teams are going to be working flat out in some cases throughout several consecutive 24 hour periods.
We need as many volunteers as we can get our hands on -- so think hard about putting something back into AUk for the pleasure it has given you so far - certainly that is why I am part of the team - to make a small repayment for all the rides I have ridden without contributing anything to help.
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In 1989 there were 29 starters. Now we are looking at around 900 starters. The growth in the last few years has been huge - 2005 had 305 starters, and 8 years later we look like being 3 times the size. The scaling of the number of volunteers required to make the event work successfully can’t be underestimated, I don’t think it’s reasonable to say that any number of people who want to ride can. Maybe if it continues to grow, qualification will start to be necessary?
I’m also wondering now if I should be rushing to enter an SR series before my choice rides are full.
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a few days on things can be seem very diffrent, to be fair this is a problem thats been happening for a couple of years now.
both the welsh 1000(2010) and scottish1000(2012) both had full fields(ok much smaller numbers) with riders missing out.
so my point is could we have two 1000kmplus rides in one year. i am sure we would have enough riders. but i can see getting helpers for two might be a problem. i would welcome any feed back on this and yes i would be willing to run a event in the south of england
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You could always do the cheats way of organising like I do and do a DIY event.
Get a route sorted. Get it OKd with DIY person and post it on this forum.
If you're after a good permanent allready set up that is 1400km, I'd reccommend Wing Commander Stephen Poulton's Grand Tour.
Or you could ride the LEL route.
I've had over a dozen on a 600 now.
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There is absolutely no way that the AUK Board would/could organise LEL - they just do not have the time and skills.
I think there is a Will Carling quote that might be relevant.
We got to where we are because a few of us were so upset by the 2009 incompetence that we felt sure we could do better.
We have tried hard and done our best - and produced a much bigger world wide response than we could have predicted --given that we have to rely on volunteers ( and unlike PBP there is no tradition of the control towns committing huge support ) then there is no way that we could have planned a ride of 1000+- -cos what would have happened if we got the finances wrong and lost £30000 -- 2009 cost AUK £5000 - and they certainly had reservations about the new "team" approach - rather than a single organiser.
Given the huge interest -- many more than expected and could be accommodated - there were always going to be disappointed riders -- that is just a fact -- but that was impossible for us to predict - and at the 900ish level - the controllers and their volunteer teams are going to be working flat out in some cases throughout several consecutive 24 hour periods.
I suppose if AUK were to organise it they would have to employ people, which breaks the 'volunteer' model. I guess it proves there is only so far you can go on volunteer support.
If you were to employ people, then everyone would have to be employed, no one is going to want to work for free if some are getting paid, unless you were a bit cute about it and farmed out the sh1tty jobs to the paid staff and kept nice rewarding jobs for volunteers.
I'm by no means saying breaking the volunteer model is the way to go. It might well be the case that I would prefer things less if they were more commercial, and that the volunteer model is better and if it means a few people missing out on a place then that's a price worth paying. But you do have to ask yourself the question, and I unlike others don't hold it as sacred and I don't regard it as axiomatic that it's better, it should defend itself and have to prove that it's still best. Volunteerism should prevail on its merit not just because of tradition, hopefully 2013 LEL will reinforce that merit. We'll see.
We need as many volunteers as we can get our hands on -- so think hard about putting something back into AUk for the pleasure it has given you so far - certainly that is why I am part of the team - to make a small repayment for all the rides I have ridden without contributing anything to help.
I'll definitely consider it once it's definite I won't be riding but that isn't definite yet.
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Fidgetbuzz, also you stop whining about 2009. I was available all the time with quite some knowledge of what happened in 2009, Danial knew this from the start but he aparantly opted not to use this knowledge. And opted not to use the network of the LEL representatives in various countries. That's his choice but don't blame Mel on not communicating then.
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The UK regulates "events" far more tightly than France. Most big public events have to go through a local authority "Safety Advisory Group", which often imposes significant professional stewarding and (sometimes) policing requirements, which cost an awful lot of money.
You clearly need to experience a bit of French red tape! In France events need to be declared for approval to all the administrative divisons (préfecture) who do not have to give a timely reponse and organisers can end up not knowing if they are allowed to run the event until the day before.
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I don't think this thread is in a very happy place right now. :-(
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You clearly need to experience a bit of French red tape! In France events need to be declared for approval to all the administrative divisons (préfecture) who do not have to give a timely reponse and organisers can end up not knowing if they are allowed to run the event until the day before.
We're lucky here at LEL that one of us speaks fluent councilese, so local authority liaison so far has been painless.
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I don't think this thread is in a very happy place right now. :-(
It does say "whinge thread"!
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We are actually employing a lot of people on LEL. Catering managers, website coders, jersey manufacturers and designers, for example. We are putting hundreds of thousands of pounds into British businesses.
It's the interesting jobs that you struggle to fill. Getting volunteers to do boring jobs is easy.
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Maybe if it continues to grow, qualification will start to be necessary?
IMHO a previous 1000, or recent SR series for qualification(not necessarily that year) would have guaranteed the regulars a place/option of a place.
OTOH i can also see the need by the organisers to generate the numbers to cover the costs of running the event.
A balancing act successfully achieved; and after all a partner/anyone could have pressed the buttons for us.
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I don't think this thread is in a very happy place right now. :-(
It's ok I still love you :)
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Maybe if it continues to grow, qualification will start to be necessary?
IMHO a previous 1000, or recent SR series for qualification(not necessarily that year) would have guaranteed the regulars a place/option of a place.
OTOH i can also see the need by the organisers to generate the numbers to cover the costs of running the event.
A balancing act successfully achieved; and after all a partner/anyone could have pressed the buttons for us.
A very good summary of the situation.
(I'd also add that having qualification procedures is a pretty complicated business - look at all the fuss in 2010. Hardly a guaranteed way to get everyone onside! )
ANY allocation system generates 'controversy'. Sadly.
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I don't think this thread is in a very happy place right now. :-(
It's ok I still love you :)
Yeah I think Danial's a great bloke too. :thumbsup:
Must send that email to get on the AUK waiting list ;D
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a few days on things can be seem very diffrent, to be fair this is a problem thats been happening for a couple of years now.
both the welsh 1000(2010) and scottish1000(2012) both had full fields(ok much smaller numbers) with riders missing out.
so my point is could we have two 1000kmplus rides in one year. i am sure we would have enough riders. but i can see getting helpers for two might be a problem. i would welcome any feed back on this and yes i would be willing to run a event in the south of england
Being one of the lucky ones to have a place on LEL (what am I doing on this thread anyway?) you can count on my support in some capacity or other should you go ahead with organising a "big" event in these parts next year.
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a few days on things can be seem very diffrent, to be fair this is a problem thats been happening for a couple of years now.
both the welsh 1000(2010) and scottish1000(2012) both had full fields(ok much smaller numbers) with riders missing out.
so my point is could we have two 1000kmplus rides in one year. i am sure we would have enough riders. but i can see getting helpers for two might be a problem. i would welcome any feed back on this and yes i would be willing to run a event in the south of england
If a number of riders riding the 1st 1000 are helping at the 2nd and the other way round the helpers problem could be tackled.
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I did mean for this thread to be a somewhat light-hearted way to have a quick whinge with each other then move on,
I certainly didn't aim for this to be the place for criticisms of the organisers etc, but I can understand why some are really miffed and would like to say so.
We have to show respect nonetheless, we'd have nothing to whinge about if it wasn't being organised in the first place! :p
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we'd have nothing to whinge about if it wasn't being organised in the first place! :p
The Spirit Of Audax in one sentence!