Author Topic: "I didn't manage to enter the LEL 2013" whinge thread  (Read 7010 times)

Fidgetbuzz

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Re: "I didn't manage to enter the LEL 2013" whinge thread
« Reply #25 on: 07 January, 2013, 12:07:45 am »
Seems to me that you do not understand how AUK rides are organised -- AUK's surplus funds are not available for LEL. The event is being run by a not for profit company limited by guarantee and it was with some reservations that we were even able to obtain the AUK loans that we needed to do the three years of development work that we have done.

The 2009 event was an organisational shambles - rescued by the efforts of the controllers - who would NOT allow the event to fail.

There was no information at all - repeat No INFORMATION - provided to this team from the 2009 organiser - so we planned for a 50% increase in riders  -- but PBP 2011 had no increase on 2007 -- which worried me after 2011 -- had we committed to a level of expenditure that we could not afford.

We had no way of knowing that potential riders would jump from 500ish - to something apparently around 1200 - and even if we could have foreseen this - we just do not have the logistical volunteer support to run a ride of that size - so there were always going to be DISAPPOINTED riders.

So stop acting and posting like a spoilt child - take advantage of Danials offer to AUK members of the chance of a ride if there are enough drop outs -

Oh and by the way - VOLUNTEER - and then you are guaranteed a ride next time
I was an accountant until I discovered Audax !!

Euan Uzami

Re: "I didn't manage to enter the LEL 2013" whinge thread
« Reply #26 on: 07 January, 2013, 12:34:22 am »
Seems to me that you do not understand how AUK rides are organised -- AUK's surplus funds are not available for LEL. The event is being run by a not for profit company limited by guarantee and it was with some reservations that we were even able to obtain the AUK loans that we needed to do the three years of development work that we have done.
Clearly!

Is it so radical to suggest it might be nice if they were?

Quote
The 2009 event was an organisational shambles - rescued by the efforts of the controllers - who would NOT allow the event to fail.

There was no information at all - repeat No INFORMATION - provided to this team from the 2009 organiser - so we planned for a 50% increase in riders  -- but PBP 2011 had no increase on 2007 -- which worried me after 2011 -- had we committed to a level of expenditure that we could not afford.

We had no way of knowing that potential riders would jump from 500ish - to something apparently around 1200 - and even if we could have foreseen this - we just do not have the logistical volunteer support to run a ride of that size - so there were always going to be DISAPPOINTED riders.

While this two-tier system of rides being organised by individuals but overseen by AUK, but not directly organised by AUK, might work for smaller rides, I think larger rides like LEL should be run BY AUK. If it were, then the information from 2009 would be available wouldn't it? Not only that but you wouldn't get this issue of the money "not being available".

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So stop acting and posting like a spoilt child - take advantage of Danials offer to AUK members of the chance of a ride if there are enough drop outs -


 :o Er - sorry, if it's sycophancy you're after , probably best not clicking on "whinge thread"?

I've already said I don't blame anyone and I'm not criticising you or Danial anybody else organising LEL, so no need to take offence please.

Quote

Oh and by the way - VOLUNTEER - and then you are guaranteed a ride next time
I might do, I'll have to see.

Re: "I didn't manage to enter the LEL 2013" whinge thread
« Reply #27 on: 07 January, 2013, 12:39:05 am »
I wasn't aware that if you volunteered it guarantees you a place on the next LEL? (should another happen)

If I don't get on via the waiting list, I'll try help out in some way.

Euan Uzami

Re: "I didn't manage to enter the LEL 2013" whinge thread
« Reply #28 on: 07 January, 2013, 12:45:33 am »
I wasn't aware that if you volunteered it guarantees you a place on the next LEL? (should another happen)

If I don't get on via the waiting list, I'll try help out in some way.

Apparently it does. I suppose it's also a good way to gauge the general atmosphere and organisation of the event as well.
Another will happen for sure in 2017 (But I don't know who it will be organised by, possibly someone different to this one.)

Fidgetbuzz

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Re: "I didn't manage to enter the LEL 2013" whinge thread
« Reply #29 on: 07 January, 2013, 12:58:55 am »
There is absolutely no way that the AUK Board would/could organise LEL - they just do not have the time and skills.
I think there is a Will Carling quote that might be relevant.

We got to where we are because a few of us were so upset by the 2009 incompetence that we felt sure we could do better.

We have tried hard and done  our best - and produced a much bigger world wide response than we could have predicted --given that we have to rely on volunteers ( and unlike PBP there is no tradition of the control towns committing huge support ) then there is no way that we could have planned a ride of 1000+- -cos what would have happened if we got the finances wrong and lost £30000 -- 2009 cost AUK £5000 - and they certainly had reservations about the new "team" approach - rather than a single organiser.

Given the huge interest -- many more than expected and could be accommodated - there were always going to be disappointed riders -- that is just a fact -- but that was impossible for us to predict - and at the 900ish level - the controllers and their volunteer teams are going to be working flat out in some cases throughout several consecutive 24 hour periods.

We need as many volunteers as we can get our hands on -- so think hard about putting something back into AUk for the pleasure it has given you so far - certainly that is why I am part of the team - to make a small repayment for all the rides I have ridden without contributing anything to help.
I was an accountant until I discovered Audax !!

simonp

Re: "I didn't manage to enter the LEL 2013" whinge thread
« Reply #30 on: 07 January, 2013, 01:06:33 am »
In 1989 there were 29 starters. Now we are looking at around 900 starters. The growth in the last few years has been huge - 2005 had 305 starters, and 8 years later we look like being 3 times the size. The scaling of the number of volunteers required to make the event work successfully can’t be underestimated, I don’t think it’s reasonable to say that any number of people who want to ride can. Maybe if it continues to grow, qualification will start to be necessary?

I’m also wondering now if I should be rushing to enter an SR series before my choice rides are full.

Re: "I didn't manage to enter the LEL 2013" whinge thread
« Reply #31 on: 07 January, 2013, 07:12:23 am »
a few days on things can be seem very diffrent, to be fair this is a problem thats been happening for a couple of years now.
both the welsh 1000(2010) and scottish1000(2012) both had full fields(ok much smaller numbers) with riders missing out.
 so my point is could we have two 1000kmplus rides in one year. i am sure we would have enough riders. but i can see getting helpers for two might be a problem. i would welcome any feed back on this and yes i would be willing to run a event in the south of england

Re: "I didn't manage to enter the LEL 2013" whinge thread
« Reply #32 on: 07 January, 2013, 07:18:18 am »
You could always do the cheats way of organising like I do and do a DIY event.
Get a route sorted. Get it OKd with DIY person and post it on this forum.
If you're after a good permanent allready set up that is 1400km, I'd reccommend Wing Commander Stephen Poulton's Grand Tour.
Or you could ride the LEL route.
I've had over a dozen on a 600 now.

Euan Uzami

Re: "I didn't manage to enter the LEL 2013" whinge thread
« Reply #33 on: 07 January, 2013, 09:00:07 am »
There is absolutely no way that the AUK Board would/could organise LEL - they just do not have the time and skills.
I think there is a Will Carling quote that might be relevant.

We got to where we are because a few of us were so upset by the 2009 incompetence that we felt sure we could do better.

We have tried hard and done  our best - and produced a much bigger world wide response than we could have predicted --given that we have to rely on volunteers ( and unlike PBP there is no tradition of the control towns committing huge support ) then there is no way that we could have planned a ride of 1000+- -cos what would have happened if we got the finances wrong and lost £30000 -- 2009 cost AUK £5000 - and they certainly had reservations about the new "team" approach - rather than a single organiser.

Given the huge interest -- many more than expected and could be accommodated - there were always going to be disappointed riders -- that is just a fact -- but that was impossible for us to predict - and at the 900ish level - the controllers and their volunteer teams are going to be working flat out in some cases throughout several consecutive 24 hour periods.

I suppose if AUK were to organise it they would have to employ people, which breaks the 'volunteer' model. I guess it proves there is only so far you can go on volunteer support.
If you were to employ people, then everyone would have to be employed, no one is going to want to work for free if some are getting paid, unless you were a bit cute about it and farmed out the sh1tty jobs to the paid staff and kept nice rewarding jobs for volunteers.
I'm by no means saying breaking the volunteer model is the way to go. It might well be the case that I would prefer things less if they were more commercial, and that the volunteer model is better and if it means a few people missing out on a place then that's a price worth paying. But you do have to ask yourself the question, and I unlike others don't hold it as sacred and I don't regard it as axiomatic that it's better, it should defend itself and have to prove that it's still best. Volunteerism should prevail on its merit not just because of tradition, hopefully 2013 LEL will reinforce that merit. We'll see.



Quote

We need as many volunteers as we can get our hands on -- so think hard about putting something back into AUk for the pleasure it has given you so far - certainly that is why I am part of the team - to make a small repayment for all the rides I have ridden without contributing anything to help.
I'll definitely consider it once it's definite I won't be riding but that isn't definite yet.


Re: "I didn't manage to enter the LEL 2013" whinge thread
« Reply #34 on: 07 January, 2013, 09:27:05 am »
Fidgetbuzz, also you stop whining about 2009. I was available all the time with quite some knowledge of what happened in 2009, Danial knew this from the start but he aparantly opted not to use this knowledge. And opted not to use the network of the LEL representatives in various countries. That's his choice but don't blame Mel on not communicating then.

Panoramix

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Re: "I didn't manage to enter the LEL 2013" whinge thread
« Reply #35 on: 07 January, 2013, 09:38:01 am »
The UK regulates "events" far more tightly than France.  Most big public events have to go through a local authority "Safety Advisory Group", which often imposes significant professional stewarding and (sometimes) policing requirements, which cost an awful lot of money.

You clearly need to experience a bit of French red tape! In France events need to be declared for approval to all the administrative divisons (préfecture) who do not have to give a timely reponse and organisers can end up not knowing if they are allowed to run the event until the day before.
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London Edinburgh London

"I didn't manage to enter the LEL 2013" whinge thread
« Reply #36 on: 07 January, 2013, 09:39:10 am »
I don't think this thread is in a very happy place right now. :-(

London Edinburgh London

"I didn't manage to enter the LEL 2013" whinge thread
« Reply #37 on: 07 January, 2013, 09:41:28 am »
You clearly need to experience a bit of French red tape! In France events need to be declared for approval to all the administrative divisons (préfecture) who do not have to give a timely reponse and organisers can end up not knowing if they are allowed to run the event until the day before.

We're lucky here at LEL that one of us speaks fluent councilese, so local authority liaison so far has been painless.

dasmoth

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Re: "I didn't manage to enter the LEL 2013" whinge thread
« Reply #38 on: 07 January, 2013, 09:45:24 am »
I don't think this thread is in a very happy place right now. :-(

It does say "whinge thread"!
Half term's when the traffic becomes mysteriously less bad for a week.

London Edinburgh London

"I didn't manage to enter the LEL 2013" whinge thread
« Reply #39 on: 07 January, 2013, 09:50:01 am »
We are actually employing a lot of people on LEL. Catering managers, website coders, jersey manufacturers and designers, for example. We are putting hundreds of thousands of pounds into British businesses.

It's the interesting jobs that you struggle to fill. Getting volunteers to do boring jobs is easy.

Re: "I didn't manage to enter the LEL 2013" whinge thread
« Reply #40 on: 07 January, 2013, 09:50:24 am »
Maybe if it continues to grow, qualification will start to be necessary?

IMHO a previous 1000, or recent SR series for qualification(not necessarily that year) would have guaranteed the regulars a place/option of a place.

OTOH i can also see the need by the organisers to generate the numbers to cover the costs of running the event.

A balancing act successfully achieved; and after all a partner/anyone could have pressed the buttons for us.
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vorsprung

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Re: "I didn't manage to enter the LEL 2013" whinge thread
« Reply #41 on: 07 January, 2013, 10:04:24 am »
I don't think this thread is in a very happy place right now. :-(

It's ok I still love you :)

mattc

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Re: "I didn't manage to enter the LEL 2013" whinge thread
« Reply #42 on: 07 January, 2013, 10:25:19 am »
Maybe if it continues to grow, qualification will start to be necessary?

IMHO a previous 1000, or recent SR series for qualification(not necessarily that year) would have guaranteed the regulars a place/option of a place.

OTOH i can also see the need by the organisers to generate the numbers to cover the costs of running the event.

A balancing act successfully achieved; and after all a partner/anyone could have pressed the buttons for us.
A very good summary of the situation.

(I'd also add that having qualification procedures is a pretty complicated business - look at all the fuss in 2010. Hardly a guaranteed way to get everyone onside! )

ANY allocation system generates 'controversy'. Sadly.
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Re: "I didn't manage to enter the LEL 2013" whinge thread
« Reply #43 on: 07 January, 2013, 10:41:07 am »
I don't think this thread is in a very happy place right now. :-(

It's ok I still love you :)

Yeah I think Danial's a great bloke too. :thumbsup:

Must send that email to get on the AUK waiting list  ;D

Re: "I didn't manage to enter the LEL 2013" whinge thread
« Reply #44 on: 07 January, 2013, 11:04:20 am »
a few days on things can be seem very diffrent, to be fair this is a problem thats been happening for a couple of years now.
both the welsh 1000(2010) and scottish1000(2012) both had full fields(ok much smaller numbers) with riders missing out.
 so my point is could we have two 1000kmplus rides in one year. i am sure we would have enough riders. but i can see getting helpers for two might be a problem. i would welcome any feed back on this and yes i would be willing to run a event in the south of england

Being one of the lucky ones to have a place on LEL (what am I doing on this thread anyway?) you can count on my support in some capacity or other should you go ahead with organising a "big" event in these parts next year.

Re: "I didn't manage to enter the LEL 2013" whinge thread
« Reply #45 on: 07 January, 2013, 11:21:54 am »
a few days on things can be seem very diffrent, to be fair this is a problem thats been happening for a couple of years now.
both the welsh 1000(2010) and scottish1000(2012) both had full fields(ok much smaller numbers) with riders missing out.
 so my point is could we have two 1000kmplus rides in one year. i am sure we would have enough riders. but i can see getting helpers for two might be a problem. i would welcome any feed back on this and yes i would be willing to run a event in the south of england

If a number of riders riding the 1st 1000 are helping at the 2nd and the other way round the helpers problem could be tackled.

Re: "I didn't manage to enter the LEL 2013" whinge thread
« Reply #46 on: 07 January, 2013, 11:47:42 am »
I did mean for this thread to be a somewhat light-hearted way to have a quick whinge with each other then move on,

I certainly didn't aim for this to be the place for criticisms of the organisers etc, but I can understand why some are really miffed and would like to say so.

We have to show respect nonetheless, we'd have nothing to whinge about if it wasn't being organised in the first place! :p

mattc

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Re: "I didn't manage to enter the LEL 2013" whinge thread
« Reply #47 on: 07 January, 2013, 11:51:13 am »
we'd have nothing to whinge about if it wasn't being organised in the first place! :p

The Spirit Of Audax in one sentence!
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles