Paleo diet - fad or phenom?

[Doosh]

If anyone wants a modern, sensible, doable reinterpretation of the paleo diet it's in this book. The author is a doctor  Ten Years Thinner: Amazon.co.uk: Christine Lydon: Books Very readable, very interesting

Cheers, worth a read for £1.50, better spent on that than another pie 

[simonp]

To be honest I often struggle to eat as much as I burn.  I'd struggle even more if I had to give up pasta.

I do often make meals which have a fairly low refined carb content though. Salads and the like in the main. Yesterday's effort was a smoked salmon and red grapefruit salad. Lovely.

[mattc]

It's not Atkins, because it gets carbs from plenty of veg, and it doesn't try to be ketogenic.  It's low slow carb.

Mind you, cavemen had knock knees and went ug, so you can't just say "old is good" or we'd all be returning to the seas...

I'm in two minds about this one. I think if someone was desperate to "go on a diet" I'd recommed it, as it seems pretty healthy overall.

But there's the "old is good" question. I can see how our agriculture has evolved faster than we have; maybe some is for the better? Or should we stick with what we are evolved to digest?

Would this idea work just as well by avoiding refined carbs, and basically sticking to low-GI stuff. (I'm not sufficiently clued up on the differences between the various grains/pulses/tubers to know how low-GI the Paleo diet is.)

[itsbruce]

I'm in two minds about this one. I think if someone was desperate to "go on a diet" I'd recommed it, as it seems pretty healthy overall.

But there's the "old is good" question. I can see how our agriculture has evolved faster than we have; maybe some is for the better? Or should we stick with what we are evolved to digest?

There is absolutely no evidence that the Paleolithic diet was one that we had evolved to digest; it's an unscientific argument.  If they want to take the diet people were eating then and research it's benefits, using the argument that it might be healthier as a starting point, that would be different.  They aren't really trying, which makes it a fad.  Since some of the healthiest communities on Earth are eating diets nothing like the Paleo diet, the whole argument seems moot, in any case.

[mattc]

...
If they want to take the diet people were eating then and research it's benefits, using the argument that it might be healthier as a starting point, that would be different. 
...

Yeah, that's more-or-less the approach I'd advocate.

This is all very complex - we evolved as omnivores, so can be pretty healthy with a variety of diets, obviously! (It would be easier to analyse Giant Panda nutrition).

 I don't think you can write off lean meat (random exampe) just because $HEALTHY_COUNTRY never eats it.

[vorsprung]

In the introductory page of the "Primal Blueprint" diet/lifestyle How to Eat According to the Primal Blueprint | Mark's Daily Apple one of the guiding principles is: "Our genes want us to be lean and fit."

Do they? Do they really?

I have to agree with the thrust of it that eating less refined carbs is probably a good idea

[simonp]

In the introductory page of the "Primal Blueprint" diet/lifestyle How to Eat According to the Primal Blueprint | Mark's Daily Apple one of the guiding principles is: "Our genes want us to be lean and fit."

Do they? Do they really?

I have to agree with the thrust of it that eating less refined carbs is probably a good idea

I'm sure there's a grain of truth to what you say.

I'm eating  more nuts and fruit these days, more fish, oily fish, shellfish, but not farmed fish, less meat particularly red meat.

As long as I don't pig out on curries and keep riding lots, my weight is stable.  Even if I eat lots of curries, I don't seem to get fat unless I'm lazy.  I'm less hungry the next day if I overeat, and my average exercise induced calorie burn last year was > 1000 calories per day (I did over 800 hours of exercise for the year, i.e. over 2h per day).

[andygates]

Cat's testicles do they! They're pragmatically lazy.

Our genes encourage overeating of high-value food, and they make it easier to get fat than lean.  Our genes want us to carry a nice little layer of fat, just in case the next meal isn't there. 

They also don't want to spend energy on things they don't need.  Not fleeing monsters?  Your legs will atrophy.  Not persistence hunting?  Your VO2max will wither.  Maintaining fitness requires regular stimulus or we atrophy away to comfortable blobs -- and this is by design. 

[hellymedic]

Wot Andy sed and wimmin were genetically programmed to store fat so that they could feed their babies through long lean periods should the need arise.
Hip & thigh fat are lactation stores.

[simonp]

Mike I'd happily bring my copy of "Racing weight" round some time. It says yes to nuts by the way.

[mike]

no ta, I'll stick with this for now..   am 2 kilos lighter after a week and have more energy and joi de vivre than I can remember for a long time!

ask me again in a month...   

[simonp]

I wasn't surprised to find Matt Fitzgerald has a page with his view:

  Racing Weight: Should You Eat Like A Caveman? – Triathlete.com

I like his Diety Quality Score metric. I would like to write an app that works it out.

[mattc]

I like his Diety Quality Score metric. I would like to write an app that works it out.

Sounds more useful than this:
App Shopper: Bike Light - Flashing Safety Light (Utilities)

[Flying_Monkey]

I wasn't surprised to find Matt Fitzgerald has a page with his view:

  Racing Weight: Should You Eat Like A Caveman? – Triathlete.com

I like his Diety Quality Score metric. I would like to write an app that works it out.

His view sounds entirely reasonable and one which I would share. Low GI diets have always worked for weight loss for me, but I find that once you up the amount of exercise you do, and once you are in real training, as I am starting to get into now, diet beyond just eating 'sensibly' make the kinds of differences that will probably only be appreciable to top-level competitive athtletes (and even then, it's probably as much to do with psychology).

[Nick H.]

I would urge everyone to disregard all generalisations on this topic. Everyone will have differing results. Many people have mild food intolerances which they're unaware of, so the diet could have surprising effects. Others might notice no effect. The only way'll you know is to try it for a few weeks. Nothing in this thread will give you the answer. So try it, it won't kill you. It's a fascinating and safe experiment which you can conduct on your own body.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Regardless of this diet's goodness, I'm wondering how genuinely palaeolithic it can be seeing as it includes dairy and eggs. Surely pre-agricultural people would have had no dairy and only the occasional foraged wild egg?

There's also the point that diet is only part of your life, and no-one choosing to follow this diet lives a hunter-gatherer or pre-agricultural caveman existence.

[ravenbait]

Not much bloody use if you're vegan, though.

Sam

[simonp]

Regardless of this diet's goodness, I'm wondering how genuinely palaeolithic it can be seeing as it includes dairy and eggs. Surely pre-agricultural people would have had no dairy and only the occasional foraged wild egg?

There's also the point that diet is only part of your life, and no-one choosing to follow this diet lives a hunter-gatherer or pre-agricultural caveman existence.

The wikipedia page on it suggests dairy is out.

Well, I'm never gonna do it, because I'm always gonna drink milk.

Here's why:

"We certainly found no evidence that drinking milk might increase the risk of developing any condition, with the exception of prostate cancer. Put together, there is convincing overall evidence that milk consumption is associated with an increase in survival in Western communities."

A pint of milk a day cuts chances of heart disease and stroke  - Telegraph

DQS is described here:

http://www.getfitslowly.com/2010/11/01/the-diet-quality-score—a-new-twist-on-common-sense-eating/

There is more detail in the book on what constitutes a serving.

[mike]

update:  nearly a month in, nearly 5 kilos lost and I feel grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreat! 

I dont miss bread, pasta or rice at all, but spuds and cake have left a large hole in my day, nuts and salad just arent quite the same

but i've never felt better - loads of energy, much less tired and much happier.

the experiment will continue...

[mike]

2 and a bit months in..  9 kilos down, still feeling great.  Have had a few baked potatoes after long rides, but still pretty good at avoiding carbs (apart from beer & wine).  I cant believe how much better I feel.  Happier, more energy, faster on the bike and running, just plain **better**   

(simon - dairy is absolutely fine, am getting through plenty of cheese and yoghurt.  Never was one for much milk)


I was out of clean jeans when we were going to the pub last night so dug to the back of the drawer and found a pair I'd bought five years ago and never worn because they were so tight  [yes dear, I should have tried them on before I bought them]

They fit perfectly - I almost needed a belt!

[Jakob]

So have you completely ditched bread, rice & pasta?
It's tempting, but I couldn't live without bread...especially in the light of my recently discovered bread making skills.
I'm going to have to give the zone diet another try, now that I'm back to working out regularly.

[mike]

So have you completely ditched bread, rice & pasta?

yup.  The only time I have bread is after a long run / long ride, absolutely no pasta or rice since I started.  I dont miss them as much as I thought I would.

[dasmoth]

Mike, could you give us an example or two of a typical meal?

I'm really struggling to see how this works.  -- Starchaholic of North Herts.

[mike]

easy - meat & veg or meat & salad, or eggs..  

Breakfast today was an omlette (which are a bit weird without toast, but you get used to it), lunch was a chicken leg, salad and some feta cheese, then a handful of almonds with my coffee.  Tea tonight is spicy roast lamb + coconutty curried veg, then greek yoghurt and some fruit.  I'll cook some rice for Mrs Mike and might have a forkful just to soak up the gravy.   Bacon is encouraged.

there's a forum (with some pretty odd americans), the recipe page is Primal Blueprint Recipes on Mark’s Daily Apple | Mark's Daily Apple

[Jakob]

So, how does your body react when you do eat bread? Does it crave more?
My crossfit coach suggested just trying it for one week. Maybe I should do that. (Got a tournament next weekend, so it'll have to wait until after that).