Not really getting on with SPDs

[T42]

Entry and exit is easy and the wider platform of the M324 make me feel more secure and in control

I had those on a touring bike, but they needed a lot of filing before my SPD shoes could move freely on the clip side.

Can't help with the tendinitis, I'm afraid. Good luck!

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Whatever works for you is what is best. I found that different brands of shoes allow different fore-and-aft cleat positions, by quite a bit.

[citoyen]

Would adjusting the saddle fore/aft position help?

[joy of essex]

Re  bike  fit,  no that's all been perfectly set up for me. It's the feet that are  the problem..

[fuaran]

Could drill extra holes in the shoes, to fit the cleats further back.
Seems to be something of a fashion for "mid-foot cleats", especially for triathletes.

[Kim]

Could you bodge a plate to the existing screw holes to mount the cleat in a suitable position for experimental purposes, before hacking up the shoe?

[andyoxon]

I ve been meaning to thank you all for your advice on this.

So , I changed the cleats,  followed QGs advice on  pedals , and I can report that I do now get on  with clipless.

Entry and exit is easy and the wider platform of the M324 make me feel more secure and in control

However, all  is  still not well.  As I wear orthotics and have wide feet I usually go up a size in shoes. ie and 43/44 not a 42.  Which means I can't get the cleat as far back as I would like.  Certainly, not as far back as Steve Hogg would suggest I should

The effect of this is , I think peroneal tendonitis, in my right foot.  My ankle still aches  after an hour's ride this morning. The answer, may be wider shoes in a smaller size  to bring the cleat position further back, but also a return to flats and toe clips.

Don't know if this might help or not, but have you tried loosening the tightness of you shoes (velcro/ratchet etc), to give your feet more room to move about.

[Brucey]

Whatever works for you is what is best. I found that different brands of shoes allow different fore-and-aft cleat positions, by quite a bit.

+1 on that.

cheers

[LateStarter]

Whatever works for you is what is best. I found that different brands of shoes allow different fore-and-aft cleat positions, by quite a bit.

+1 on that.

cheers

This might help

For Shimano SPD shoes (other brands may have similar), ME type shoes have a longer placement range behind "ball of foot" and the AM have a standard range but it seems to start further back, the larger the shoe the further back. I also like mine slammed as far back as they can go, anything else feels bad. The "Shimano SH-AM501 MTB SPD Shoes - Olive" are my favourite and cheaper too

[Frank9755]

I ve been meaning to thank you all for your advice on this.

So , I changed the cleats,  followed QGs advice on  pedals , and I can report that I do now get on  with clipless.

Entry and exit is easy and the wider platform of the M324 make me feel more secure and in control

However, all  is  still not well.  As I wear orthotics and have wide feet I usually go up a size in shoes. ie and 43/44 not a 42.  Which means I can't get the cleat as far back as I would like.  Certainly, not as far back as Steve Hogg would suggest I should

The effect of this is , I think peroneal tendonitis, in my right foot.  My ankle still aches  after an hour's ride this morning. The answer, may be wider shoes in a smaller size  to bring the cleat position further back, but also a return to flats and toe clips.

If you have been reading Steve Hogg you have got into the world of mid-foot!

Your options are fairly limited, but they do exist.

1. Speedplay is the easiest to get set up mid-foot.  They do an adaptor plate that allows you get further back than any other commercially available system.  As per ^, if you start with the right Shimano shoes you'll be in a better position.  They generally have the furthest back cleat position of any shoe brand.

2. Flat pedals.  Sorry if you've ruled them out, but there are flat pedals specifically designed for midfoot, so worth mentioning again is this context: https://pedalinginnovations.com/ 

3. Bespoke shoes.  Expensive, but would work

4. Drill a pair of shoes to fit cleats.  Joe Friel and many others have done this with SPDs, but I don't think anyone gets it right first time.  Scherrit Knoesen aka The Bike Whisperer (who is a disciple of Steve Hogg) does it very well with Speedplays.

Lots of people who ride midfoot started to do so in response to ankle issues.

If you do go midfoot you would need to re-do your bike fit. 

[joy of essex]

Did  I mention my wide feet (G) and high arches?  At the moment, the shoes that  fit me best are either Dr Ms or Bluntstone / Redback boots!  Shimano's shoes are famously narrow.

I went to  see  Scheritt some 9 years ago. He  fitted insoles and insets  to my shoes and  that sorted the problem out then.  However, I now need arch support in soles in all my shoes.  Walking is pain free, running short distances provides me with a niggle, riding for an  hours  on SPDs means a day of  ibuprofen and paracetamol. The  the big ring is also to be avoided.

So, for the moment  its rest,  flat pedals, perhaps toe clips and old school  cycle shoes...

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Shimano has a range of lasts/ shoe widths up to 2E, though not in all models.
https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/technologies/apparel-accessories/footwear/more-lasts.html

[joy of essex]

What's 2E in UK sizes, a G?

[LittleWheelsandBig]

From https://www.healthyfeetstore.com/width-sizing-chart.html

"Width is an incredibly complex topic for the pedorthic (professional shoe fitting) community. Pedorthists - the professionals who fit shoes for a living - are often very hesitant to make sweeping statements regarding what shoe width a person should or should not wear. This is because most people don't know that there is no standard width system used by shoe manufacturers to determine the measurements of a narrow, medium, wide, or extra wide shoe. Shoe designers use their best judgment when deciding how wide to make a wide shoe and don't consult with one another before labeling the widths of their shoes."

[Brucey]

if you get on OK (or at least better) with flat pedals than clipless pedals this usually means there is a basic issue with shoes (which you might well have) and/or that there is a basic issue with how the pedal thrust is transmitted through the shoe to the pedal, in relation to how your foot works.  In the latter instance this specifically relates to unintended movements of the foot under load.  This is a complex business but some common issues of this type include;

a)   that the centre of thrust is not aligned with the middle of the cleat.

b) that the foot tilts (sideways i.e. cambers) under load

c) that the foot twists (as viewed from above)  under load, which I call 'squirming',

or a combination of the above.   For example a) always causes a measure of b), and with some shoe/pedals systems this is both difficult to avoid entirely  and soon develops into a major problem.

I am lucky because I have narrowish feet and the only noticeable problem I have is that my right foot squirms under load.  What I have observed is that even my narrow feet are only just narrow enough that I don't run into an a) type problem.  If you have wide feet I would say it is odd on that you should use pedals with longer spindles or pedal extenders with SPDs to avoid b).

If you have any of the above going on, you may well instinctively (without even realising that you are doing it) be using all kinds of small  'supporting' muscles to stabilise your foot when it is under load.  This is something that soon overworks these smaller muscles and this typically causes all kinds of foot pains if you ride for long.

If you want to check for a) then simply try standing on something narrow (like a pencil) lengthwise under the foot, and see where it is most close to the balance point (which might be where an ice skate blade would be best located too).  If this is not aligned with the middle of a small cleat (eg SPD) then you are already on a sticky wicket and (IMHO) you would be best advised to fix that before doing anything else.

With SPDs if you don't have the cleat centred the foot ends up being supported at the sides, often by parts of the shoe/pedal which will soon wear and let a b) type problem emerge more fully.  In the meantime you can still have enough movement to make for bad foot pain without even knowing it.

hth

cheers

[joy of essex]

Stands on the pencil.  This confirms inward pronation on my right foot. Oh, and my left leg is stronger than the right- I won't share the pictures but one thigh is wider than the other.

Brucey, your description sounds about right. The pain has come on over the last year but I 've had the above for much longer. 

Pre-ride exercise and stretching both help,   but I think that it's riding under load that really irritates the tendon.

On line physio sites ( eg Bob and Brad) suggests that I need to do lots of stretching as well as  pro-recptor exercises ie standing on one leg.  So I'll carry on with that.  When lockdown lifts I'll see if I can find  a physio who knows what they are talking about

[Tommyp27]

https://glorydays.cc/blog/cycle-shoes/

I use these. I find SPDs are ok to commute and probably better when you want to go fast. But I prefer riding in these for distance or riding fixed and so much easier to walk in. I use them wirh Mks Sylvan pedals and suede double straps.

SPuDs seem to cause me occasional knee problems as well.

[joy of essex]

Hello, yes I have a pair of those  shoes  but mine have a leather sole.
They  work  with an Orthotic  but I do  find the toe box a bit small.  I shall  reaqauint my self  with them.

[giropaul]

Whatever your foot placement is on flat pedals should be, I would suggest, the placement that you replicate with your cleat position.
Steve Hogg is very much an outlier. Only one pro, as far as I know, has anything like his position for their plates. I know we aren’t all pros, but these are people who ride more than almost anybody else, and who have a lot of measurements done for power etc.
If you are determined to use the rearward cleat position there are adapters available.
I’ve got wide feet. I only use Shimano wide Dynafit last shoes. I use Superfeet footbeds - various ones are available depending upon your arch height and sport. Some higher price point Shiman shoes come with adjustable arch support, and you can also buy these footbeds separately, although they take some tracking down.

[joy of essex]

Thanks,  I  am aware of Steve Hogg's outlier status. Some of his views , eg the effect of plastics on the body , are a bit odd.

I  think my problem is  this...

Wide feet and  high arches -  the latter increase the likelihood of peroneal tendonitis
Muscle imbalance- my left leg is stronger than my  right
Over pronation on the right foot.
My age - I am nearly 60

It seems that  pressure through on the right foot  via the forefoot ( ball of the foot) twists the foot and irritates the tendon leading to pain around the ankle

SPDs  fitted  using the ball of the foot method  seem to irritate things. The same thing happens when running  but not through walking. When I walk I strike the ground  with heal and arch of the foot.

Not quite sure where to go next- lowering the saddle buggers up the other parts of fit, but doing so  might  reduce the stress  on the ankle.  Certainly , lower gear and flat pedals  seem to help.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I found several advantages to sliding the cleats a long way back but I don’t race, so the disadvantages mean little to me.

[Frank9755]

Thanks,  I  am aware of Steve Hogg's outlier status. Some of his views , eg the effect of plastics on the body , are a bit odd.

I  think my problem is  this...

Wide feet and  high arches -  the latter increase the likelihood of peroneal tendonitis
Muscle imbalance- my left leg is stronger than my  right
Over pronation on the right foot.
My age - I am nearly 60

It seems that  pressure through on the right foot  via the forefoot ( ball of the foot) twists the foot and irritates the tendon leading to pain around the ankle

SPDs  fitted  using the ball of the foot method  seem to irritate things. The same thing happens when running  but not through walking. When I walk I strike the ground  with heal and arch of the foot.

Not quite sure where to go next- lowering the saddle buggers up the other parts of fit, but doing so  might  reduce the stress  on the ankle.  Certainly , lower gear and flat pedals  seem to help.

If you get pain when you ride with a cleat on the ball of your foot then midfoot has to be worth a try. 

SH is certainly going against the trend in advocating it but there are others who use it, eg coaches like Joe Friel and James Wilson.  Amongst pro cyclists, Adam Hansen and a former womens' world champ whose name I can't remember.  There are various others who I can't remember, but pro cyclists are a pretty conservative bunch who are not going to risk messing around with their foot position. 

Where it is most common is amongst RAAM riders, and it is getting more widespread in unsupported ultraracing.  You may not be doing that, but the motivator is usually to fix some sort of pain that people have experienced when riding with forefoot cleats.  For me it was getting chronic shin pain during IndyPac. 

[joy of essex]

Madness is doing  repeating the same action  but expecting different  results each time

Rode the bike again, but this time with toe clips and shoes.  The ankle aches, so back on the ibuprofen.

I suspect it's positional and the answer may be a lower saddle.  Any way, no  riding the new bike for now and  when the tendon has calmed  down I 'll  try a lower saddle , flat pedals and see what happens.

[joy of essex]

Update- 

So  I switched to the M324 pedals and the easier cleats.  That made a huge difference, much easier to click in and out and the feet feel much more supported.

However, given my wide feet I ve been riding size 9 or 44  shoes which, I now realise,  can't give me a midfoot position and I really notice a loss of power  generally and especially when climbing a hill.

So,  I am now looking at Lake shoes which offer a wide 43   shoe. Lets see what happens.

[Little Jim]

I've just bought a pair of Lake shoes in a wide fitting.  I never realised it was actually possible to spend that much money on a pair of shoes but once i had got over the shock of that I must say that they are something of a revelation comfort wise.  I used Salt Dog Cycling who are internet only but you can speak with them very easily (I say "them" but in reality it is just Richard who runs the whole thing)  Richard was extremely helpful and he has a big range of Lake shoes.