Hydraulic disc brake levers for single speed?

[Sergeant Pluck]

Does Shimano do hydraulic discs brake drop bar levers that are not STI?

I'm thinking of converting my Disc Trucker to hydraulics - it has bar end shifters which I am happy with.

TRP Hylex is an option, I see - but only seems to come in flat mount, or would they fit my existing BB7 adapters?

[Chris N]

TRP do make a post mount version of the Hylex.

Adaptors are available to use flat mount calipers on ISO frames, but they're hard to find and may not fit due to caliper/frame clashes.

[Brucey]

similar problem faced by many CX riders who don't want STIs.  Options here include Hope V-twin, and a similar system ('conduct' I think) from Giant, both of which allow you to use cable levers with hydraulic calipers, via remote master cylinders.

FWIW I don't think there is anything (apart from making up the hoses) which should stop you from using TRP/Tektro mineral oil levers with shimano calipers, so a few options here too.

cheers

[Sergeant Pluck]

TRP do make a post mount version of the Hylex.

Yes, I've found them now. Annoyingly they are more expensive than the flat mounts, and I can only see them in stock at bike.de. And it seems you have to buy the mounts separately, also annoyingly.

https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/trp-hylex-rs-disc-brake-post-mount-676670

Will search properly later.

Are 1m and 1.8m hoses likely to be ok for a large Disc Trucker without adjusting lengths?

[psyclist]

Another option you might consider are the Juin Tech GTs. I've started using them on one bike as a replacement for TRP Spyre's and found them to have good stopping power. The hydraulic bit is within the unit itself, and it is cable actuated so your existing levers would be fine.

There is a review as follows ... the name is different in the US, but they are the same. The GT-P is the post mount version.

https://bikepacking.com/gear/yokozuna-ultimo-brakes-review/

[Chris N]

And it seems you have to buy the mounts separately

Indeed.  Not everyone wants 160mm ISO F&R.

Are 1m and 1.8m hoses likely to be ok for a large Disc Trucker without adjusting lengths?

Most probably, unless you've got some crazy wide bars or high stem.  I trimmed mine down to approx. 0.8 & 1.4m for a M/L frame.

[fuaran]

Does Shimano do hydraulic discs brake drop bar levers that are not STI?

Shimano and SRAM make levers for 1x10 or 1x11. So the left hand lever is not STI. Maybe you could use a pair of left hand levers?

Though probably simpler and cheaper just to buy a pair of brakes, and ignore the STI part. Or dismantle it, and remove the STI parts?
And probably better than any of the semi-hydraulic bodges anyway.

[Sergeant Pluck]

And it seems you have to buy the mounts separately

Indeed.  Not everyone wants 160mm ISO F&R.

That's reminded me that I have forgotten most of what I ever knew about BB7s. Am I correct in thinking that the original Surly Disc Trucker had IS mounts? Is that different to post mount? 

[Chris N]

Yes and yes. Your BB7 calipers are post mount and use an adaptor to fit the IS mounts on your frame. If you’re sticking with the same size rotors then you can use the existing adaptor with the post mount Hylex calipers.

[freeflow]

Trp Hy/Rd. Cable to hydraulic calipers. They work better with longer cable pulls. Setting them up correctly is counter intuitive. I had them on my bike for life for 5 years before it was stolen. Stopped my 100kg fine, even going downhill. Replaced pads twice in the time I had the bike. No other servicing was needed.

[Brucey]

FWIW if a rear HyRd is mounted on the chainstay, water can pool behind the MC piston and contaminated the hydraulic circuit. Also HyRd calipers are not always assembled using perfectly clean components; I have found aluminium swarf inside the hydraulic circuits of more than one caliper, along with water.

HyRds are designed to work best with modern shimano dropped bar STIs which use NSSLR cable pull (I.e. most models launched since 2008). They are somewhat more finicky if you try and use them with shorter pull levers (campag ergos or sram)

Arguably one of the best things about HyRd (or Juin tech) calipers is that if they screw up on you, they can be swapped out for your old BB7s in just a few minutes.

cheers

[fuaran]

HyRds are designed to work best with modern shimano dropped bar STIs which use NSSLR cable pull (I.e. most models launched since 2008). They are somewhat more finicky if you try and use them with shorter pull levers (campag ergos or sram)

Are there any singlespeed/non-STI levers with the correct cable pull?

[Sergeant Pluck]

Yes and yes. Your BB7 calipers are post mount and use an adaptor to fit the IS mounts on your frame. If you’re sticking with the same size rotors then you can use the existing adaptor with the post mount Hylex calipers.

Thanks Chris. Exactly what I was hoping. Just did a from-scratch set-up of my BB7s so let’s see how that works in the morning - certainly I have improved the feel and bite point.

[Brucey]

I think some Tektro/TRP levers have the correct cable pull for HyRd calipers. However they seem to  have changed their ways of identifying the things they make.  About eight years ago (when shimano's NSSLR was still quite new) they identified new model brakes with descriptions including 'compatible with new cable pull levers' or somesuch statement. However on their website currently there is seemingly no good means of discriminating between their older 'road' products (which use higher lever MA (shorter pull) levers and lower MA calipers) and their newer ones, which use lower lever MA and higher caliper MA.

IMHO it would be a Really Useful Thing if someone made a dropped bar lever which could be adjusted for MA/cable pull; as it is, there are so many possibilities that  most random combinations of brake parts simply can't work perfectly, but would be able to  if the levers had adjustable cable pull.

The closest thing on the market to this functionality is Pauls 'Klamper' mechanical disc brakes; OK it is at the other end of the brake cable, but the same caliper may be used with three different length arms according to which of the three most common lever types you have;  a short arm for Campag ergos and SRAM dropped bar levers (and also pre 2008 shimano STIs), a long arm for V-brake levers, and a medium length arm for 2008-on shimano STIs with NSSLR cable pull.



cheers

[Sergeant Pluck]

One characteristic of the front braking that prompted this post is that I’m getting a scraping, harsh braking noise (+ intermittent screeching) and a sort of unevenness when braking. It does improve if I apply the brake lightly on a long downhill, but reoccurs after a period of normal braking during stop-start riding. I readjusted the brakes and this has improved braking power, feel, and the biting point at the lever but the above feel persists.

It’s been a while since I fitted these brakes, and I noticed tonight that the disc says “resin pads only” and I’m pretty sure the pads are sintered. There is some scoring on the disc but nothing too bad.

Before doing anything else I might replace the pads, but I think I’d prefer sintered. Given that this is a touring bike used for commuting, rather than a downhill MTB, does the “resin pads only” really matter that much? There don’t seem to be that many options for 160mm rotors than can use sintered pads that aren’t of the expensive Shimano ICE type with large carriers that won’t work with BB7s.

[andrew_s]

If you are still considering the Hylex brakes, note that they only come in front/left, rear/right flavour, as far as I can find.
That would mean swapping the hoses over, the extra cost for the bits, and possible loss of warranty.

[Andrew Br]

If you are still considering the Hylex brakes, note that they only come in front/left, rear/right flavour, as far as I can find.

Not on my set, it's the usual UK set-up, front right, left rear.
Mind you they are a few years old.

I've tended to get several thousand miles out of a set of resin pads be it commuting (which the Hylex did), normal road riding or using the often muddy trails around here.
I use Hope rotors which, I think, are OK with either resin or sintered pads. I've stuck to resin because they work for me.

[jiberjaber]

If you are still considering the Hylex brakes, note that they only come in front/left, rear/right flavour, as far as I can find.

Not on my set, it's the usual UK set-up, front right, left rear.
Mind you they are a few years old.

I've tended to get several thousand miles out of a set of resin pads be it commuting (which the Hylex did), normal road riding or using the often muddy trails around here.
I use Hope rotors which, I think, are OK with either resin or sintered pads. I've stuck to resin because they work for me.

Same here (Dec 2016) - though they did arrive full of fluid, which is fine where you don't need to feed through a front fork for example.  I think I did have to shorten one of the hoses, might have been the rear but I can't remember now.

Only qualm I have is my right leaver has a bit of a rattle - can be silenced by leaving my finder touching the leaver - I've thought about 3d printing a replacement part for it internal spacer but I think it's made of tufnol or similar so didn't want to risk not having a free moving brake leaver but it can spoil the near silence of fixed (when it is noise free sometimes ) 

[Brucey]

One characteristic of the front braking that prompted this post is that I’m getting a scraping, harsh braking noise (+ intermittent screeching) and a sort of unevenness when braking....

It’s been a while since I fitted these brakes, and I noticed tonight that the disc says “resin pads only” and I’m pretty sure the pads are sintered. There is some scoring on the disc but nothing too bad.

Before doing anything else I might replace the pads, but I think I’d prefer sintered.

The standard pads that come with BB7s are sintered IIRC; if you use them with the shimano discs that say 'resin pads only' you can expect problems of the sort you have encountered. If you have centrelock discs, a simple solution is to use an adaptor and a cheap (sintered compatible) six-bolt disc.  Changing to hydraulic brake calipers won't suddenly make the brakes work with sintered pads, if that is what you want to use.

cheers

[Sergeant Pluck]

Changing to hydraulic brake calipers won't suddenly make the brakes work with sintered pads, if that is what you want to use.

cheers

Cheers Brucey. No, the reason I was thinking about changing to hydraulics was to improve the overall quality of braking regardless of pad type.

[Brucey]

No, the reason I was thinking about changing to hydraulics was to improve the overall quality of braking regardless of pad type.

which rather begs the question 'improve over what, exactly?' With the current disc and pad combination your brakes will be substandard and this needs fixing regardless of whether you intend to use hydraulic calipers or not.  You won't even have a choice of pad type until you make this change, so you should get on and do that regardless of which calipers you end up with. You want better brakes? That is the first step; you have to do it anyway so you may as well get on with it. 

This will almost certainly elevate your brakes from 'crap' to 'alright'; there are plenty of BB7 users out there who value the easy maintainability of a cable operated system over any benefits offered by hydraulics. They can of course suffer if you don't maintain the cables etc but if you never even set them up properly from the start you are not exactly giving them a chance are you?

FWIW if you change everything it may be a case of the Emperor's  new clothes; new brakes might be good but this may be seen to be nothing to do with the lousy setup of the old set....

cheers

[fuaran]

The BB7 only has 1 moving pad. So it is bending the rotor whenever you apply the brakes. This could have warped the rotor, which would cause juddering etc.

[Sergeant Pluck]

With the current disc and pad combination your brakes will be substandard and this needs fixing regardless of whether you intend to use hydraulic calipers or not.

Agreed - as above, this was a recent discovery  I’m perfectly happy with the braking on the rear BB7 (which has the same rotor and, I suspect, resin pads) but I have a vague recollection of fitting sintered pads to the front. The set-up, as in caliper alignment etc., is fine.

[Brucey]

The BB7 only has 1 moving pad. So it is bending the rotor whenever you apply the brakes. This could have warped the rotor, which would cause juddering etc.

a)  in practice very few brakes (with two moving pistons)  remain so perfectly balanced that they don't move the disc by a comparable amount and
b) this load on the disc is tiny by comparison with all the others.

The other loads include

- residual stresses  (warm the disc up once, and it may warp)
- torque stresses during braking (up to about half a tonne on the nearest disc spoke to the caliper)
- thermal stresses; the disc wants to be about 1mm bigger diameter at the periphery when it is hot, but the centre is cooler/restrained so doesn't move in the same way.

The idea that pushing the disc ~0.25mm sideways, (using a single piston caliper) is likely to warp it is one of the myths pedalled by those who favour different brakes to that. If it did, pretty much all discs would warp, all the time.  The most common thing I hear about spyres etc is that they are 'balanced' but the most common thing I see when I look at used brakes of this type is that they are not; the pad adjusters are so lousy they don't stay in adjustment and the disc is most usually moving around at least as much as when a single piston caliper is used.  Hydraulic calipers often develop one slightly sticky piston; same result.

cheers