The Grumble Thread - No energy for a full on rant.

[David Martin]

That is the back, the engine is in the other way round

[Feanor]

The main problem with the Haynes Book Of Fiction was that they took a brand new car, and took the engine out and dismantled it on the bench.

"To remove the exhaust manifold, simply undo the 8 nuts holding it in place"
 
No Shit, Sherlock.
Only, with a real car, you need to break your arm in 3 places just to *touch* the nuts in question, never mind getting a spanner on them.
And then, if the car has actually been driven, the nuts are seized to the point that they will shear the studs before coming off.

[Kim]

I think the fundamental problem with the Haynes approach is that they base their instructions on a comprehensive strip-down of (some obscure and rust-free variant) of the car in question.  So you end up with helpful instructions like "Replacing thermostat: '2 spanner' job easily completed in 10 minutes with a socket set" with the dependency "Complete removal and re-fitting of fuel injection manifold: '4 spanner' job, requiring an obscure dealer-specific tool which the mechanically adept might be able to fashion out of some welding rod, maybe, and an oscilloscope".  It's the mechanical equivalent of trying to do anything useful with a Linux system back in the days before package managers.

Though to give them their credit, the BOL I had for my Corsa contained a comprehensive and freakishly accurate wiring diagram, which merely required squinting at the appallingly grainy printing and a working knowledge of german abbreviations.

[Ashaman42]

Ah man, I'm just trying to make my radiator fan work. And believe me, it's very trying  I think it's either the thermostat or fan relay. I have another test tomorrow to determine which and then it's phone Dad to decide if we he can fix it or I should just pay our tame mechanic or not.

[Kim]

At risk of granny sucking eggs issues, have you checked the coolant loop isn't airlocked?  If the sensor that controls the fan (as distinct from the thermostat which controls the flow of coolant through the radiator) is high and dry, it won't get hot enough to do anything useful.

[Ashaman42]

Temp sensor seems to work (I think), as in coolant gauge (guage?) rises normally and then kicks to overheat, and the fan never kicks in.

The current plan is to fire the engine up tomorrow and hold onto top radiator hose. From what Google tells me if it get hot inline with engine temp then it's stuck open and if it stays cool and suddenly get hot it's working normally. Ergo if it stays cool all the way it's stuck closed but I'm led to believe this is an odd fail situation.

I think the fuses are ok but the Haynes and car manual layout of fuseboxes don't match the acutal layout so am just going on the fact that I can't see any fuses that look brokeded.

[Gattopardo]

What car?

Check that the fan works.  There will be a sensor on the rad.  Cross the terminals and, mind your fingers in the fan blades, see if the fan works.

[Feanor]

Be aware that the temperature gauge and the cooling system thermostat are un-related.
The gauge is just that: a gauge. It does not kick in the radiator or fan.

The Engine Thermostat is usually a small dome-shaped thing that diverts water through the radiator when it gets hot enough.

The fan sensor is seperate again.
There will be a sensor to kick the fan in.

[Gattopardo]

Temperature guage on the dash is on another sensor than the rad sensor.

[Ashaman42]

Peugeot 206, Y-reg, early 2001 I think. Obviously the model changed sometime in 2001 but I'm fairly sure I have the right less wrong Book of Lies (tm).

Annoyingly getting to the rad requires removing the front bumper which is recommended via axles stands yada yada yada.

Hopefully Dad will say take it to him as his workplace had a proper pit for working on vehicles.

[Ashaman42]

Right, just seen other replies. Will check Thermostat via 'hold ze hose' test tomorrow and then phone Papa. And see what he thinks, I hate to spend too much but he is far more practiacal than me and if he reckons mechanics is best then so be it.

[Andrij]

In the Bible one finds the exhortation to "Make a joyful noise unto the LORD." (Ps. 100:1)

The community worshipping around the corner from me have definitely mastered the 'noise' aspect. 

[Vince]

Essentially, Haynes are pingfuckit deniers.

[David Martin]

The thremostat test used to be to remove it and stick it in a pot of water on a stove. You should then see it open when it heats up. Obviously this is info from the olden days and modern ones may be different.

[spesh]

I think the fundamental problem with the Haynes approach is that they base their instructions on a comprehensive strip-down of (some obscure and rust-free variant) of the car in question.  So you end up with helpful instructions like "Replacing thermostat: '2 spanner' job easily completed in 10 minutes with a socket set" with the dependency "Complete removal and re-fitting of fuel injection manifold: '4 spanner' job, requiring an obscure dealer-specific tool which the mechanically adept might be able to fashion out of some welding rod, maybe, and an oscilloscope".  It's the mechanical equivalent of trying to do anything useful with a Linux system back in the days before package managers.

I refer m'learned forumite to the following gem of a post over on El Reg:

http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/containing/796851

[JonBuoy]

I seem to remember that the (not Haynes) manual that I used when replacing the clutch on my mum's mini stated something like ' now undo the 9 bolts on the bell housing - this will require a short spanner and a long temper'.  They weren't wrong.

[Ashaman42]

A thought re my car and the fan. It only overheats when not moving, if I'm moving the natural airflow is enough to keep it at a comfortable 85ish C.

If the thermostat was jammed closed, so that coolant was not going through the radiator would it stay that cool just from airflow over the engine or does this indicate that the radiator is being supplied with hot coolant? And indicate that it's either the fan relay or the fan itself and not the thermostat.

I know I can test thermostat by sticking it in a pan of water but this means draining the coolant which I may as well do only once if I'm going to replace the thermostat anyway.

Then again a new 'stat is only £9 so guess I could change it blind.

[Chris S]

FFS, Orange or EE or whatever you are this week.

"I'm sorry, our top-up system is down at the moment. Please call again later. Click...."

Well, that's a bit shit isn't it?

[mrcharly-YHT]

A thought re my car and the fan. It only overheats when not moving, if I'm moving the natural airflow is enough to keep it at a comfortable 85ish C.

If the thermostat was jammed closed, so that coolant was not going through the radiator would it stay that cool just from airflow over the engine or does this indicate that the radiator is being supplied with hot coolant? And indicate that it's either the fan relay or the fan itself and not the thermostat.

I know I can test thermostat by sticking it in a pan of water but this means draining the coolant which I may as well do only once if I'm going to replace the thermostat anyway.

Then again a new 'stat is only £9 so guess I could change it blind.

You should be able to disengage the contacts from the stat and short them out. Haynes is useful for working which terminals to bridge.
If fan runs, then you know that the problem is at thermostat end.

Now you know which terminals to check - use a multi-meter and test resistance across them with cold engine. It should be high. Now run the engine until rad is hot near the thermostat and check again. If the resistance hasn't dropped, then either heat isn't reaching the thermostat or thermostat is bust. *now* drain rad and take thermostat out for further testing.

[Polar Bear]

Rule #1:    unidentified running hot test: 

Take the stat out, run the car without one.   If it stays cool the stat is the issue, if it heats up you have a different problem.

IME, albeit only 18 months as a grease monkey in the eighties, this helps with diagnosis.   

[Polar Bear]

Re: Haynes:

I have found them extremely useful when dealing with unfamiliar vehicles.   Best bit usually being the tech data but sometimes you get a feel for something by having some tips on the sequence of dismantling / reassembly.   Having to retrace a couple of hours work because you've done something out of sequence can be a real PITA. 

[Ashaman42]

Rule #1:    unidentified running hot test: 

Take the stat out, run the car without one.   If it stays cool the stat is the issue, if it heats up you have a different problem.

IME, albeit only 18 months as a grease monkey in the eighties, this helps with diagnosis.   

I'll have to double check the book later but I think the thermostat is built into the housing it's part of so not sure I can run without one.

Though another test I've read for the thermostat is to start up the engine cold and hold the top radiator hose, if it gradually heats inline with the engine the 'stat is jammed open and if it stays cool and then suddenly warms up everything is good there.

Of course first I need to work out exactly which bit is the bit housing the thermostat. I'm sure it says in the book but I wasn't sure on first read through of whether left means left looking under the bonet or left from the driver's seat.

Thanks for all the advice by the way everyone, I know I'm a bit impractical when it comes to car so sure I'm making it hard work for you all.

[Gattopardo]

Rule #1:    unidentified running hot test: 

Take the stat out, run the car without one.   If it stays cool the stat is the issue, if it heats up you have a different problem.

IME, albeit only 18 months as a grease monkey in the eighties, this helps with diagnosis.   

They are starting to be integral to a housing.

[Gattopardo]

Rule #1:    unidentified running hot test: 

Take the stat out, run the car without one.   If it stays cool the stat is the issue, if it heats up you have a different problem.

IME, albeit only 18 months as a grease monkey in the eighties, this helps with diagnosis.   

I'll have to double check the book later but I think the thermostat is built into the housing it's part of so not sure I can run without one.

Though another test I've read for the thermostat is to start up the engine cold and hold the top radiator hose, if it gradually heats inline with the engine the 'stat is jammed open and if it stays cool and then suddenly warms up everything is good there.

Of course first I need to work out exactly which bit is the bit housing the thermostat. I'm sure it says in the book but I wasn't sure on first read through of whether left means left looking under the bonet or left from the driver's seat.

Thanks for all the advice by the way everyone, I know I'm a bit impractical when it comes to car so sure I'm making it hard work for you all.

Is the water pump one with plastic impellers?

[Ashaman42]

Is the water pump one with plastic impellers?

I am not sure, I shall try and find out after tea.

ETA: Looking at the four pumps available on EuroCarParts, the three aftermarket ones appear to be metal but the 'OE quality' one looks to be plastic.