Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => On The Road => Topic started by: hellymedic on 03 January, 2020, 02:46:34 pm

Title: Bad News from the Harrow Times
Post by: hellymedic on 03 January, 2020, 02:46:34 pm
There has been a cyclist fatality on the A40 in Northolt today.
RIP rider.
https://www.harrowtimes.co.uk/watfordnews/18135635.man-dies-crash-a40/ (https://www.harrowtimes.co.uk/watfordnews/18135635.man-dies-crash-a40/)

There is also a report of the death in Wormwood Scrubs of a very old man, 9 days after starting a custodial sentence for killing a pedestrian.
https://www.harrowtimes.co.uk/news/18133550.harrow-pensioner-killed-woman-car-accident-died/ (https://www.harrowtimes.co.uk/news/18133550.harrow-pensioner-killed-woman-car-accident-died/)
Title: Re: Bad News from the Harrow Times
Post by: Peter on 03 January, 2020, 03:13:15 pm
Both tragedies, obviously but I'm shocked by the outcome of the second case.  The undertandably grieving partner may feel that justice has been done but I can't help thinking that two and a half years for an 87 year old man is plainly wrong.  Of course, I don't know the details, such as whether or not he was drunk,  or known to be deficient in some way but it still seems WRONG.
Title: Re: Bad News from the Harrow Times
Post by: hellymedic on 03 January, 2020, 03:51:16 pm
I agree. The old man appeared very frail in the newspaper photo, and unlikely to be long for the world anyway.
I think the sentencing judge is going to have a hard time.
It seems wrong that very old folk should feel the need to drive when there should be EASY alternatives.
Title: Re: Bad News from the Harrow Times
Post by: ian on 03 January, 2020, 03:56:20 pm
He made the choice to drive, and drive as did, so I think it's correct he faces responsibility for that. I don't see that age comes into it. If he's too frail to go to prison, he's definitely too frail to be driving a car.
Title: Re: Bad News from the Harrow Times
Post by: fd3 on 03 January, 2020, 03:58:36 pm
^wot Ian said.
Title: Re: Bad News from the Harrow Times
Post by: hellymedic on 03 January, 2020, 04:06:25 pm
Suspect there'll be an outpouring of sympathy for the old man by the local petrolheads...
Title: Re: Bad News from the Harrow Times
Post by: ian on 03 January, 2020, 04:23:37 pm
If I recall, the issue here wasn't just that he had an accident was that he knowingly then continued his progress leading to another crash and the fatal consequences (not to mention another person with life-changing injuries). It wasn't a 'momentary lapse' nor was he uncomprehending of his actions.
Title: Re: Bad News from the Harrow Times
Post by: hellymedic on 03 January, 2020, 05:14:50 pm
I wasn't there (obv) but 100 feet with your foot on the gas, in reverse, with a panicking driver can be quite rapid IMHO.

There are no winners...

An old lady died in May 2018, following a crash into the lobby of the Premier Inn, Christchurch West, where David & I stay every year when we visit his Dad. I have not yet found any details of the causes of that crash. There were no other injured parties.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Bad News from the Harrow Times
Post by: ian on 03 January, 2020, 05:33:28 pm
There aren't winners but I think that if you drive a vehicle you should expect to held responsible and accountable. And if you can't be held responsible and accountable, then you'd shouldn't be driving. It's binary really. Do or don't. I don't think 'pedal confusion' or 'momentary lapses' should be excuses.

Anyway, according to the story, having crashed into a bollard he opted to get back into his car, angry, and the outcome of that decision was one person killed and another significantly injured. It wasn't momentary.

(I don't think an 87-year-old man dying is that unexpected.)
Title: Re: Bad News from the Harrow Times
Post by: Peter on 04 January, 2020, 09:07:17 am
As I suggested in my original post, there is a lot more to this case than I could glean from Holly's link.  I certainly did not suggest that the driver's death was owing to his prison sentence.  It's the sentence itself that concerned me: responsible for his actions?  Certainly, failing other evidence to the contrary.  But preventing him from doing it again could surely be achieved without a two and a half year sentence.  Definitely a difficult one, though, in spite of some people's certainties!
Title: Re: Bad News from the Harrow Times
Post by: bludger on 04 January, 2020, 09:25:28 am
Harrow LCC have some events on this month - if you're local it would be worth going. Not sure their online presence is up to date but they've definitely got things in the pipeline, send them an email if you're keen https://lcc.org.uk/boroughs/harrow
Title: Re: Bad News from the Harrow Times
Post by: hellymedic on 04 January, 2020, 12:54:02 pm
You do appreciate I can neither walk nor ride a bicycle, don't you...?
Title: Re: Bad News from the Harrow Times
Post by: bludger on 04 January, 2020, 02:20:41 pm
Had no idea - sorry. Though LCC supports cyclists' interests of all kinds including handcyclists, electric-assisted three wheelers etc. One of my most rewarding chats was with a member who'd got the council to fit a special on-street storage unit for their e-assist trike. Their meetings will probably be in a village hall so it should be wheelchair accessible. You may have heard of Isabelle Clement, handcyclist and the head of south London adaptive cycling charity Wheels for Wellbeing, who's on the policy forum https://www.cyclinguk.org/guide/women-cycling-41-60
Title: Re: Bad News from the Harrow Times
Post by: hellymedic on 04 January, 2020, 03:10:04 pm
My partner was co-ordinator of Brent Cyclists until last year.
I've attended Barnet Cyclists meetings on an off since 1986.
I edit Camden Cyclists newsletter and D edited Harrow & Brent LCC's joint newsletter until 2018.

We might just know what's going on with LCC local groups  ;)
Title: Re: Bad News from the Harrow Times
Post by: sojournermike on 04 January, 2020, 03:15:52 pm
Quote from: hellymedic on 04 January, 2020, 03:10:04 pm
My partner was co-ordinator of Brent Cyclists until last year.
I've attended Barnet Cyclists meetings on an off since 1986.
I edit Camden Cyclists newsletter and D edited Harrow & Brent LCC's joint newsletter until 2018.

We might just know what's going on with LCC local groups  ;)

Do you know Helly, I always had you down as living in the north!
Title: Re: Bad News from the Harrow Times
Post by: bludger on 04 January, 2020, 05:01:56 pm
Quote from: hellymedic on 04 January, 2020, 03:10:04 pm
My partner was co-ordinator of Brent Cyclists until last year.
I've attended Barnet Cyclists meetings on an off since 1986.
I edit Camden Cyclists newsletter and D edited Harrow & Brent LCC's joint newsletter until 2018.

We might just know what's going on with LCC local groups  ;)
Top banana. I enjoyed leafletting with your mob on Gray's Inn road the other week. Hope the consultation goes the right way  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Bad News from the Harrow Times
Post by: hellymedic on 04 January, 2020, 05:10:17 pm
Quote from: sojournermike on 04 January, 2020, 03:15:52 pm
Quote from: hellymedic on 04 January, 2020, 03:10:04 pm
My partner was co-ordinator of Brent Cyclists until last year.
I've attended Barnet Cyclists meetings on an off since 1986.
I edit Camden Cyclists newsletter and D edited Harrow & Brent LCC's joint newsletter until 2018.

We might just know what's going on with LCC local groups  ;)

Do you know Helly, I always had you down as living in the north!

I studied in Sheffield, cut my Audax teeth around Doncaster and have lived & worked in jobs from Lerwick in the north to Poole in the south.

I now live in north Brent, about 200 metres from Harrow and 400 metres from Barnet.
Title: Re: Bad News from the Harrow Times
Post by: Wowbagger on 04 January, 2020, 05:22:13 pm
Quote from: hellymedic on 04 January, 2020, 05:10:17 pm
Quote from: sojournermike on 04 January, 2020, 03:15:52 pm
Quote from: hellymedic on 04 January, 2020, 03:10:04 pm
My partner was co-ordinator of Brent Cyclists until last year.
I've attended Barnet Cyclists meetings on an off since 1986.
I edit Camden Cyclists newsletter and D edited Harrow & Brent LCC's joint newsletter until 2018.

We might just know what's going on with LCC local groups  ;)

Do you know Helly, I always had you down as living in the north!

I studied in Sheffield, cut my Audax teeth around Doncaster and have lived & worked in jobs from Lerwick in the north to Poole in the south.

I now live in north Brent, about 200 metres from Harrow and 400 metres from Barnet.

That's quite definitely the North, from the Londoner's point of view.

I once knew an international master chess player by the name of Colin Crouch, sadly no longer with us. He played for NW Eagles, a Lancashire-based team, in the National Chess League. He lived somewhere pretty adjacent to yourself, Helly. Someone once challenged him as to why it was he played for a NW team when he was from London and he replied "I can categorically confirm that I am the only member of this team with a genuine NW postcode."
Title: Re: Bad News from the Harrow Times
Post by: hellymedic on 04 January, 2020, 05:39:24 pm
As I'm 200 metres from the NW frontier, I must tolerate HA8 mail...
Title: Re: Bad News from the Harrow Times
Post by: Wowbagger on 04 January, 2020, 06:25:57 pm
Quote from: hellymedic on 04 January, 2020, 05:39:24 pm
As I'm 200 metres from the NW frontier, I must tolerate HA8 mail...

Badoom etc.
Title: Re: Bad News from the Harrow Times
Post by: ian on 06 January, 2020, 10:00:15 am
Quote from: Peter on 04 January, 2020, 09:07:17 am
As I suggested in my original post, there is a lot more to this case than I could glean from Holly's link.  I certainly did not suggest that the driver's death was owing to his prison sentence.  It's the sentence itself that concerned me: responsible for his actions?  Certainly, failing other evidence to the contrary.  But preventing him from doing it again could surely be achieved without a two and a half year sentence.  Definitely a difficult one, though, in spite of some people's certainties!

Prison sentences aren't issued to prevent someone 'doing it again' though.

Anyway, from the report I read (which I can't find now), he was a chap with a known temper and thought he best solution to pranging his car was to get back in and attempt to drive off aggressively and at speed in an environment with a number of vulnerable pedestrians (a car park). That he hit the wrong pedal didn't really change his intent. It was a purposeful reckless act that resulted in injury and death.
Title: Re: Bad News from the Harrow Times
Post by: Peter on 06 January, 2020, 10:45:46 am
Thanks, Ian.  I didn't know any of that.
Title: Re: Bad News from the Harrow Times
Post by: Sergeant Pluck on 06 January, 2020, 12:10:27 pm
Quote from: hellymedic on 03 January, 2020, 02:46:34 pm
There has been a cyclist fatality on the A40 in Northolt today.
RIP rider.
https://www.harrowtimes.co.uk/watfordnews/18135635.man-dies-crash-a40/ (https://www.harrowtimes.co.uk/watfordnews/18135635.man-dies-crash-a40/)


RIP.

Spectacularly unsympathetic comments below the relevant article in the Evening Standard.
Title: Re: Bad News from the Harrow Times
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 07 January, 2020, 10:39:53 am
Quote from: ian on 06 January, 2020, 10:00:15 am
Quote from: Peter on 04 January, 2020, 09:07:17 am
As I suggested in my original post, there is a lot more to this case than I could glean from Holly's link.  I certainly did not suggest that the driver's death was owing to his prison sentence.  It's the sentence itself that concerned me: responsible for his actions?  Certainly, failing other evidence to the contrary.  But preventing him from doing it again could surely be achieved without a two and a half year sentence.  Definitely a difficult one, though, in spite of some people's certainties!

Prison sentences aren't issued to prevent someone 'doing it again' though.

erm, I think they are. At least in part. Prison sentences are not really intended to be punishment, but to 'remove people from society when they are a danger to society'. The Parole board et al review the prisoner's behaviour to see if they have rehabilitated enough to be safe to release. Not if they have been punished enough.