Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => The Knowledge => Further and Faster => Topic started by: mrcharly-YHT on November 24, 2019, 02:52:15 pm

Title: Performance nosedive - no 'oomph' anymore
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on November 24, 2019, 02:52:15 pm
I used to lack skill (ability to paddle tippy boats). Now I have that, but I've completely lost my sustainable power.

Not just paddling, don't have it riding my bike.

I used to get stronger after 30 minutes or so, now I'm utterly exhausted and just want to give up. Absolutely no 'oomph'.

It has been a bit difficult to keep going to any structured training, but I would that thought that would have rested my body, even if performance suffered.

This is very dispiriting, can't work out what is behind it.
Title: Re: Performance nosedive - no 'oomph' anymore
Post by: hellymedic on November 24, 2019, 03:06:13 pm
What are you eating?
Are you on any medication?
Do you rest/sleep well?
What is your weight doing?
Have you had any recent bugs, lurgies or other ills?

Sorry, I'm a curious cat but I wish you well...
Title: Re: Performance nosedive - no 'oomph' anymore
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on November 24, 2019, 03:15:54 pm
Medication hasn't changed in years (Topiramate).

Diet . . . I was tracking that with an app, since my consistent weight loss and a discussion at my last health check. Body fat levels dropped since last year, at 15% in August (optimal is 18% for my age/gender). Muscle mass same as last year, which is not good (doing lots of exercise, so should have increased.

Diet app showed that I'm hitting 50% of intake for protein, 75% carbs on days when I train and cycle commute, about parity on other days. That's including using a protein shake. I've added a lot more nuts. Was low on vitamins, so started taking a multivitamin.

When I was at my peak (felt like my peak, I had a real performance punch), some of my training included gym time, particularly 30 min hard sessions on a cross trainer. I'd set the cross trainer to 'hills' and then try to improve the average watts each week. Don't have that anymore. Really don't feel like I could do a session like that anymore either!

Rest - variable. Probably getting 5-6 hours sleep a night. Generally very tired.
Title: Re: Performance nosedive - no 'oomph' anymore
Post by: DuncanM on November 24, 2019, 03:18:01 pm
You were working hard on the board and going up class after class. If you carried on training after the end of the season, have you just burned yourself out a bit? Maybe you could do with a proper break?
Title: Re: Performance nosedive - no 'oomph' anymore
Post by: T42 on November 24, 2019, 03:33:49 pm
The weather isn't getting any warmer either. Pedalling on the flat in 2°C today felt like going uphill.
Title: Re: Performance nosedive - no 'oomph' anymore
Post by: Canardly on November 24, 2019, 04:10:04 pm
Work stress?
Title: Re: Performance nosedive - no 'oomph' anymore
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on November 24, 2019, 04:12:07 pm
You were working hard on the board and going up class after class. If you carried on training after the end of the season, have you just burned yourself out a bit? Maybe you could do with a proper break?

I've wondered about that.

Part of me wants to stop doing the hard (fast) training for a bit. Concentrate on improving my skills and technique. Maybe that is the winter SADs kicking in.

I'm moving office on Monday and that means I'll get a chance to start using a gym again. A bit of variety in training wouldn't go amiss, plus, I don't actually like training in the dark on cold water!
Title: Re: Performance nosedive - no 'oomph' anymore
Post by: rdtrdt on November 25, 2019, 01:20:31 pm
Rest - variable. Probably getting 5-6 hours sleep a night. Generally very tired.

Considering that improving fitness requires two parts: (i) the workload to stimulate an overcompensatory response by the body; (ii) rest/recovery when the body "builds" the physiological adaptations; then the above sounds far from ideal to me and is the first thing I'd be looking to address...

Perhaps:
- a couple of weeks or so off any training;
- then return with an equal (if not greater) focus on achieving sufficient quality sleep and recovery as you place on the workload aspects of your training.

I'm talking my own book, as I place getting quality/sufficient sleep as my highest priority.
Title: Re: Performance nosedive - no 'oomph' anymore
Post by: TheRedEyeJedi on November 25, 2019, 03:39:28 pm
Can you track heartrate during exercise or your resting/waking heart rate each day?
Can you look at power read out or go to a gym that has a bike with power on it?

How you feel is a good guide but some data would help
Title: Re: Performance nosedive - no 'oomph' anymore
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on November 25, 2019, 04:24:39 pm
Can you track heartrate during exercise or your resting/waking heart rate each day?
Can you look at power read out or go to a gym that has a bike with power on it?

How you feel is a good guide but some data would help
I don't have a heartrate monitor. The nearest thing to that is an omron BP monitor that MrsC uses. So I can check resting BP and heart rate. That hasn't varied much - resting pulse in low 50s.

The nearest thing to a consistent measure of performance is the club time trial. I was getting to a level where a mediocre paddle was 62 minutes, a good paddle was under 61.
On saturday I paddled a fastish boat in ideal conditions, got around feeling tired in 66minutes.

66!

That is crawling. I've done 60 in a slower boat.
Title: Re: Performance nosedive - no 'oomph' anymore
Post by: mike on November 25, 2019, 05:08:05 pm
Sounds a bit like overtraining.. normal suggestions to rowers going through this are to take a complete break for a couple of weeks and make sure you're getting enough sleep.  Also are you on daily vitamin D?
Title: Re: Performance nosedive - no 'oomph' anymore
Post by: Wowbagger on November 25, 2019, 05:09:59 pm
Have you been to a GP for a once-over?
Title: Re: Performance nosedive - no 'oomph' anymore
Post by: quixoticgeek on November 25, 2019, 05:19:40 pm

Have you had a cold or flu like illness in the last few weeks?

J
Title: Re: Performance nosedive - no 'oomph' anymore
Post by: hellymedic on November 25, 2019, 05:34:43 pm
Just Take A Fortnight's 'Holiday' from All Exercise.
No Fret
Good Food that you Like and Fancy
Enjoy some passive entertainment - whatever floats your boat.
Rest well.

You might want to do this now.
You might prefer to wait until 21 December.

2 weeks off: no exertion, no fretting.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Performance nosedive - no 'oomph' anymore
Post by: zigzag on November 25, 2019, 05:54:23 pm
sounds like a fatigue of one form or another. e.g. i feel similar after blood donation which i used to do twice a year, now decided once a year as it takes 4-6 weeks for the red blood cell count to recover. good sleep is very important, alot of muscle recovery happens during the final sleep cycles from 6th to 8th hour (see info-graphic (https://www.joe.co.uk/fitness-health/this-is-why-getting-eight-hours-sleep-helps-build-muscle-75963)).
Title: Re: Performance nosedive - no 'oomph' anymore
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on November 26, 2019, 08:24:42 am
I rely on bike to get to work, but it is only 10miles each way so not a lot of load. Can't avoid that at new office, sadly. There have been bugs floating around me, MrsC has been vaguely ill for weeks (to the extent she was getting major tests, but nothing came back positive).

Vitamin D. Hmm that is worth exploring.

Yes I might need a reset. Shame I can't get a reset from work and life stress!
Title: Re: Performance nosedive - no 'oomph' anymore
Post by: hellymedic on November 26, 2019, 12:31:15 pm
DON'T PUSH yourself on your commutes! Take them steady except when you need to be quick for the traffic.
Neck a snack ASAP when you arrive.
Look after yourself!
Title: Re: Performance nosedive - no 'oomph' anymore
Post by: chrisbainbridge on November 26, 2019, 02:54:21 pm
Charley.
I am on holiday and therefore listening to more podcasts. The real science of sport podcast has been dealing with possibly relevant problems know. As relative energy deficiency. RED-S   
Not able to paste on my phone at the moment but may be worth a look
Title: Re: Performance nosedive - no 'oomph' anymore
Post by: DuncanM on November 26, 2019, 02:56:55 pm
This is the podcast - I've been listening and it's really good. https://podcasts.apple.com/za/podcast/mary-cain-challenging-culture-fat-shaming-elite-performance/id1461719225?i=1000457810935&fbclid=IwAR1wYBdDv_0MpJwBT6Y-FBkVqAd8s-7XMN8J4XLW2LiEBE-YMK2slvzFLAk

The issue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_energy_deficiency_in_sport

Definitely worth being aware of...
Title: Re: Performance nosedive - no 'oomph' anymore
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on November 26, 2019, 04:31:59 pm
Thanks - that gives me a lot to think about.

RED-S That does sound very likely, I do have a problem with food. I have been trying to work on my diet but stopped using the diet tracker, so much faff.

I've been reminded by someone - basically I feel very much the way I did when taking beta blockers. Can't push the engine, there is a speed limiter!
Title: Re: Performance nosedive - no 'oomph' anymore
Post by: hellymedic on November 26, 2019, 04:45:53 pm
Has your thyroid function been checked? Common reasons for 'low gears':
Thyroid trouble
Beta Blockers
Dietary
Cardiac Pacing
Title: Re: Performance nosedive - no 'oomph' anymore
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on November 26, 2019, 05:35:38 pm
I had a TSH test in August. 2.610 mIU/L
Is that it?
Title: Re: Performance nosedive - no 'oomph' anymore
Post by: chrisbainbridge on November 26, 2019, 06:31:13 pm
[url]https://basem.co.uk/how-to-identify-male-cyclist-at-risk-of-red-s/[\url]

I suspect that kayakers are very much prone to low bone density as another non weightbearing sport.

This is not something I know anything about and 99.99% of medics will not either.

I would suggest seeing if you can find the authors and get yourself referred to their clinic.
Title: Re: Performance nosedive - no 'oomph' anymore
Post by: hellymedic on November 27, 2019, 12:25:41 am
I had a TSH test in August. 2.610 mIU/L
Is that it?

Yup! Slap-bang in the middle of the 'normal' range.

Anaemia is another cause of poor performance so a blood count might be wise.
Title: Re: Performance nosedive - no 'oomph' anymore
Post by: jiberjaber on December 02, 2019, 12:39:40 am
How's your morning wood?

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/much-training-enough-secrets-making-long-term-fitness-progress-443496

Title: Re: Performance nosedive - no 'oomph' anymore
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on December 02, 2019, 08:52:57 am
How's your morning wood?

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/much-training-enough-secrets-making-long-term-fitness-progress-443496

Quote
Spragg tells a story about a coach who used to put a hair in the yoghurt at breakfast – the rider who picked out the hair without comment was OK to train, whereas the rider who blew up in annoyance needed a rest day.
Read more at https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/much-training-enough-secrets-making-long-term-fitness-progress-443496#PTLuV4vxIu2tC9Mh.99
I'd fail this test. I'm really F**** irritable and impatient.

Been doing some reading about RED-S and made some dietary changes. I have been relying on protein shakes to get my protein intake up. They are filling, but possibly too filling. Ditched those for the last week and I'm noticeably more hungry, so that makes it easier to make myself eat 'solid' food.

Guidance for recovery and avoiding RED-S suggests doing more weight training. Haven't been doing that, mostly due to lack of time. So I'll ditch some of the kayak sessions for weight training sessions.