Author Topic: Is Cycle to Work data a failure ?  (Read 4350 times)

maxcherry

Is Cycle to Work data a failure ?
« on: 24 May, 2014, 02:55:44 pm »

How is the data for cycle to Work collected?
Is it by people who have applied and got told that they can have a bike or is it just by people who have applied.
If people get the bike and then sell it on, is that taken into account?

Looking at Gumtree, Preloved and other sites you can tell (sometimes the ads state) what is a cycle to work bike
most are Halfords, the same company that says it is doing so well from the sceheme.

Is the Cycle to Work success just a lie in order to get green points?

Re: Is Cycle to Work data a failure ?
« Reply #1 on: 25 May, 2014, 07:34:09 am »
I'm not sure what data you're referring to - is it available on line?

It's not legal to sell the bike until after the end of the hire period and transfer of ownership - until that point the bike is still owned by the scheme operator. Is this what you're implying? I'm sure a few people do, but there doesn't seem to be much scope for making a quick buck by scamming the system, the discount is not big enough.
Quote from: tiermat
that's not science, it's semantics.

Re: Is Cycle to Work data a failure ?
« Reply #2 on: 25 May, 2014, 07:47:40 am »
I'm a crown servant and and I'm not entitled to apply for the ride to work :-[. My dad has one as my mum works for NHS. I think the main benefit is paying in instalments not everyone has the money to go out and buy all singing all dancing bikes especially in today's economy.

Re: Is Cycle to Work data a failure ?
« Reply #3 on: 25 May, 2014, 07:50:55 am »
Not sure what you mean about "Cycle to work is a lie"

The scheme per se is a massive success in that it has put many thousands of bikes out there and helped bolster the creation of a cycling culture. Before the introduction, bike shops were closing left and right, now they are opening again. Sure, not all of that is down to cycle to work scheme, but it is certainly one element of the story if only because the scheme predated this current "surge"

For sure you are going to get some bikes on sale that people are selling before they properly own, you will also see a  number that will have been nicked. A number of committed cyclists have also taken advantage of the scheme to feed the n+1 habit (not me of course, I can stop any time I like. The fact that my employer has a £2.5K limit on the scheme is just ... GET THEE BEHIND ME SATAN), that's a valid use of the scheme, too.


Re: Is Cycle to Work data a failure ?
« Reply #4 on: 25 May, 2014, 09:05:07 pm »
Not sure what you mean about "Cycle to work is a lie"

The scheme per se is a massive success in that it has put many thousands of bikes out there and helped bolster the creation of a cycling culture. Before the introduction, bike shops were closing left and right, now they are opening again. Sure, not all of that is down to cycle to work scheme, but it is certainly one element of the story if only because the scheme predated this current "surge"

For sure you are going to get some bikes on sale that people are selling before they properly own, you will also see a  number that will have been nicked. A number of committed cyclists have also taken advantage of the scheme to feed the n+1 habit (not me of course, I can stop any time I like. The fact that my employer has a £2.5K limit on the scheme is just ... GET THEE BEHIND ME SATAN), that's a valid use of the scheme, too.

It's certainly driven a cycling culture at my work, the fact we've had to build an additional bigger bike shed to cope says something. Pretty much every new employee ends up getting some sort of bike from the basic to the fancy, and a lot of us are on n+1 (+1+1+1 et al). Currently the limit at my employer is just a tad over 4K and repayable over periods from 12 months to 3 years owing to having a cyclist as our accountant and the company having a credit licence.  Plus we can buy from anywhere we like and they'll let you use a company credit card to buy it. I've worked out the savings and while we now have to pay the vat (which we didn't about 6 years ago) I reckon I save about 20% on the list price.



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maxcherry

Re: Is Cycle to Work data a failure ?
« Reply #5 on: 26 May, 2014, 07:19:19 am »
Looking at the small ads, i have seen the Halfords carrea's ,voodous and others with the cycle stuff that goes with it. Those bikes
have been bought via the scheme to make a quick buck even though they are new and have not been finished being paid off.

I have talked to people who admit that they get the bikes and sell them as they say 'The employer wont know'

People may hold on to a £1K bike but for anything below that especially the £300 - £700 they have more chance of getting sold, even before
the thrill of getting a new bike wears off.

Re: Is Cycle to Work data a failure ?
« Reply #6 on: 26 May, 2014, 07:43:12 am »
I reckon I save about 20% on the list price.

Those bikes have been bought via the scheme to make a quick buck even though they are new and have not been finished being paid off.

Is it really that easy to sell a bike privately at more than 80% of the list price? They're not exactly "making a quick buck", they're just getting some free credit.

Compared to the amount of good the scheme is doing encouraging people to cycle, it's not really worth worrying about a few people getting a little credit via their employer.
Quote from: tiermat
that's not science, it's semantics.

maxcherry

Re: Is Cycle to Work data a failure ?
« Reply #7 on: 26 May, 2014, 11:47:33 am »
It's not the scheme that concerns me, it's the fact that it is over hyped 'IMHO' and
Halfords is getting credit/slap on the back even though a fair amount of those bike (again IMHO) will
be sold,given away or left to rust after a few months.

I would be more interested to know how many people actually kept and used the bikes
by the time they have completed there part in in scheme.

mcshroom

  • Mushroom
Re: Is Cycle to Work data a failure ?
« Reply #8 on: 26 May, 2014, 02:43:01 pm »
In what way is it 'over hyped'?

From my experience at my employer we have had a noticeable increase in cycle commuting while the scheme has been running, and most of the bikes are bought from the local independents (living 15 miles from the nearest Halfords helps). The scheme is very well received by my LBS as well.

I'm also not sure what your worry about 'hype' is. Even if a few people illegally sell on bikes they don't yet own, the overall benefit of the schemes for local businesses seem to have been substantial, and they are promoting more people cycling to work. What do you feel is the downside of this scheme?
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clifftaylor

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Re: Is Cycle to Work data a failure ?
« Reply #9 on: 26 May, 2014, 05:41:29 pm »
It's not the scheme that concerns me, it's the fact that it is over hyped 'IMHO' and
Halfords is getting credit/slap on the back even though a fair amount of those bike (again IMHO) will
be sold,given away or left to rust after a few months.

I'm no great fan of Halfords, but if the scheme gets some people out of cars and onto bikes (and it undoubtedly has), it's OK with me.

finch

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Re: Is Cycle to Work data a failure ?
« Reply #10 on: 26 May, 2014, 06:11:02 pm »
My employer ( relatively big ) refuses to even acknowledge the info I've passed on and doesn't even reply to email anymore. Sad but where I work it's just a myth , let alone a lie

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: Is Cycle to Work data a failure ?
« Reply #11 on: 27 May, 2014, 07:20:57 am »
It's not the scheme that concerns me, it's the fact that it is over hyped 'IMHO' and
Halfords is getting credit/slap on the back even though a fair amount of those bike (again IMHO) will
be sold,given away or left to rust after a few months.

I would be more interested to know how many people actually kept and used the bikes
by the time they have completed there part in in scheme.

I'm still trying to figure out what your point is...  or if you have one...
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

fuzzy

Re: Is Cycle to Work data a failure ?
« Reply #12 on: 27 May, 2014, 01:27:04 pm »
Lets just bandy some figures around then shall we?

I have no data (real or anec) to rely on so will make them up as I go along.

I am going to throw a ball park figure out ther of 50% of the bikes purchased using the scheme would not have been purchased at all without it. That is a whole lot of bikes out there that wouldn't have been.

Lets say that 50% of the bikes purchased under the scheme were purchased 'just to make a quick buck'. Thats still a whole lot of bikes out there that are in the hands of the scheme purchaser.

Works for me  :thumbsup:

Re: Is Cycle to Work data a failure ?
« Reply #13 on: 27 May, 2014, 03:38:36 pm »
I was in a meeting recently when someone quite young provided some statistics, mentioning they weren't sure how accurate they were. I did a dead-pan "Did you know that 78% of statistics are made up?" which was rewarded with a "Oh, is that right?" from the perpetrator and much hilarity from everyone else.

fuzzy

Re: Is Cycle to Work data a failure ?
« Reply #14 on: 27 May, 2014, 03:48:33 pm »
I contribute to another forum whose tag line is "80% Bollocks 20% Football".

 ;D

Re: Is Cycle to Work data a failure ?
« Reply #15 on: 13 June, 2014, 09:42:17 am »
Surely even if there are folk selling their cycle to work bike then ultimately that means the person that's getting a cheap bike is still cycling... So can't be bad!
I got my bike through the cycle to work scheme in the £300-£700 range and I've still got it and in really getting into it! Once it's paid off ill likely look to buying one through the scheme again in the £1000+ range! So defo can't be a bad thing! :)
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Re: Is Cycle to Work data a failure ?
« Reply #16 on: 13 June, 2014, 10:20:16 am »
I have tried to get my employer to run the scheme, but he wont do it. Its only a small company and I'm the only one interested in using it  :(
123 Miles East of Marsh Gibbon

Re: Is Cycle to Work data a failure ?
« Reply #17 on: 13 June, 2014, 10:39:26 am »
Where I work it has got at least 3 people (so 10%) onto bikes who otherwise wouldn't be cycling to work. One guy got an electric bike for his wife so she could commute by bike instead of car.

A couple of people have bought high-end road bikes for exercise that they otherwise wouldn't have bought (and they wouldn't be cycling without the high-end bikes).

I don't know of anyone who has bought a bike on the scheme and sold it.

Anecdotal evidence says to me that the scheme works.
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Pedal Castro

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Re: Is Cycle to Work data a failure ?
« Reply #18 on: 13 June, 2014, 01:42:23 pm »
I have tried to get my employer to run the scheme, but he wont do it. Its only a small company and I'm the only one interested in using it  :(

If you are the only one interested then that makes it easier for the employer, it means that the company only needs to upfront £1000, instead of (n x £1000).

Dibdib

  • Fat'n'slow
Re: Is Cycle to Work data a failure ?
« Reply #19 on: 13 June, 2014, 01:47:30 pm »
All the companies I've known/worked for who have chosen not to run the scheme have decided so because of the admin effort, not the capital required. N hours worked to administer the scheme for a hundred employees is justifiable, the same effort just for one person... it'd probably be cheaper just to buy them the bike.

Pedal Castro

  • so talented I can run with scissors - ouch!
    • Two beers or not two beers...
Re: Is Cycle to Work data a failure ?
« Reply #20 on: 13 June, 2014, 03:32:25 pm »
No effort at all really, you don't need to sign up to any "scheme", just do a salary sacrifice item, much easier than anything else payroll have to do in these days of compulsory pension scheme opt-ins. I'll check with my guys but I would be surprised if it took more than a hour of work after I gave him the invoice.

Re: Is Cycle to Work data a failure ?
« Reply #21 on: 16 June, 2014, 12:35:54 pm »
I think in its current iteration the scheme is just rubbish. The benefits are so poorly framed legally that many companies are either unknowingly breaking the law, or being complicit in a scheme which is sailing very close to the wind.

The scheme rules need to be simplified and the level of discount applied needs to be clearly defined.

At present the scheme makes use of tax law that is really intended for something else. They should simply bite the bullet and create an entirely new scheme. For example, if you can buy an electric car and get a government subsidy, why can't you do the same for a bike?

maxcherry

Re: Is Cycle to Work data a failure ?
« Reply #22 on: 18 June, 2014, 11:56:07 pm »
Never knew this thread was still alive!

The 3 places i work at have the scheme, staff openly confess to getting the bike
and accessories just to sell. Not everyone has the thousand pound limit
and it's not like the employers check the bikes have not been sold.

If the data is just going by who has got a bike via the scheme and not who has still
got the bike before the end of the contract, then the data is flawed.

fuaran

  • rothair gasta
Re: Is Cycle to Work data a failure ?
« Reply #23 on: 19 June, 2014, 12:48:06 am »
The scheme only benefits are very limited number of people. ie those who's employer has agreed to run it, and who know they will have the same job in a year or so.
Then there's scheme providers taking a 10% cut, and limited bike shops you can buy through. So there's only any real savings for high rate tax payers.

Re: Is Cycle to Work data a failure ?
« Reply #24 on: 19 June, 2014, 08:30:54 am »

If the data is just going by who has got a bike via the scheme and not who has still
got the bike before the end of the contract, then the data is flawed.

We still don't know what data you're referring to?
Quote from: tiermat
that's not science, it's semantics.