[HAMR] Just head scratching

[Fidgetbuzz]

I am not party to Steve's thoughts - so any of this is just my extrapolation from what I know, perceive or guess.

Steve has long had an ambition to test himself against Tommys record   -- this was a calendar year total, but could be anywhere worldwide.

I understand that Guinness will not accept any new claim - possibly because of snags about verification but also I am told that Steve would need to pay to submit an attempt ( dont know how much). Snags about verification seem odd given tracking and Strava.

Working out how to get a calendar year verification of Steves distance led him to UMCA, probably thru Hoppo ( UMCA is quite an odd set up - odder even than AUK ).

UMCA then laid down a set of rules - which made it a 365 day ride anywhere, with several twists  that are " different from"  the Tommy Godwin total, or as audaxers think of it as riding ""self sufficiently".  Steve accepted these rules  as it meant he could tackle Tommys record with official approval. I have no idea whether at this time Steve ( and Hoppo - crew chief) were aware of Kurts interest - but even if they were I suspect that Steves ambition to test himself against Tommys calendar year would have meant that he was happy to get any accepted official verification.

So we get to where we are now -- with UMCA validating a highest 365 day total - with multiple bikes allowed , no alcohol for the team , support vehicles following closely behind if required, or even drafting behind a vehicle allowed, and relocation at any time, by any means, all in the rules.

My personal read is that this has become very different to Steve's original intention of testing himself against Tommy with as far as he could manage similar conditions.

Does this matter -- I really do not know -- if Steve beats Tommy in a calendar year - is he happy -- I guess YES - if he loses to Kurt on a 365 day ride to UMCA rules -- will he be unhappy -- absolutely no idea.

If Steve does beat Tommys figure but is surpassed by Kurt under UMCA rules --  I would applaud them both -- but still  regard Steve as the true successor to Tommy, and not Kurt.  Clearly I would love to see Steve take the UMCA record as well, as his riding now has a level of mental and physical commitment much greater than riding round a pan flat Florida in temperatures in the mid 50s, though even that is itself amazing.

[michaelo]

What puzzles me more is what happens if Tarzan rides more miles in 2015 than Steve (even with the 10 zero days in Jan 2015). 

[LittleWheelsandBig]

All academic as Kurt won't make the distance.

[JohnR]

I think the question is if Kurt rides more miles than the Tommy Godwin record in 2015 before Steve manages it, then presumably Kurt would be the holder of that record until Steve beats that before december 31st.

As far as the UMCA record is concerned, it is simply the one who rides the most miles in 365 days from their start date.

All this is simply mental maschinations as Steve will win and Kurt will ride off into the sunset with his head held low in dismay 

[Datameister]

Actually, I think they probably will both make the distance.

In my mind, the most important thing is that Steve rides all year and breaks Tommy's record, the "record that can never be broken". That was a record set here in the UK, through the vagaries of UK weather and in UK road conditions (which have admittedly changed in the last 70+ years). If both of them achieve the total miles then "Chapeau" to both.

Despite the auspices under which this is run, and however much fun it is to watch both and compare, they are not truly going "head to head". There are different strategies, roads, weather, support networks....you name it, that make their joint and individual efforts not truly comparable. Even comparison to Tommy is not directly possible unless we ration traffic on the road and (heaven forbid) we are at war, and there is a blackout.

What we can all agree on (I hope) is that they are both true athletes, however you define the term, and both deserve  every plaudit for their phenomenal efforts both year to date, and for however long this year that they continue to go.

We should be thanking them for the splendid daily entertainment that this endeavour is providing.

[Ivan]

I agree that there are couple of different records here, my comment from a previous thread:

There are really two records at stake here - the 'Tommy Godwin' and the HAMR. For me the latter is really just a framework for validating the former and any recognition by the news organisations & thus public will come on 31 December this year if Steve beats Tommy's distance. The HAMR will just be for us pedants and Kurt will struggle to achieve the same place in history.

[LMT]

If Steve really does want to test himself against Tommy then do the ride as Tommy done all them years ago on the same sort of bike being the same weight and gearing, in the same kit eating the same food and drinking the same fluids.

People cherry picking the UMCA rules and discounting other peoples efforts is just lame. The mental commitment by Tarzan is more imo, even though Florida is flat it's featureless, dull and boring.

[trekker12]

I think it depends on what each person wants from the record attempt.

From what I have read Steve has been dreaming of attempting to beat Tommy Godwin's record for a very long time. He's found a way to do that and fit it into his life.

Perhaps that's enough? To beat Tommy and take a year off doing something he really wants to do will always be something he remembers (and can tell everyone all about it) for the rest of his life.

I don't know Steve but if it were me I would see this as a personal thing. Records will usually get broken. Does it matter if it was broken 10 days after, 10 years after or if Kurt is strong enough 10 days before?

Steve (and Kurt) will always be able to say he rode more than 75,000 (or however many he actually ends up doing) miles one year.

[Datameister]

My apologies if I was insufficiently bi-partisan. I'm discounting no-ones efforts, I know I could never match either, whether riding on my own, or being supported on the road.

No matter who achieves a higher mileage, under whatever conditions, I'm afraid I shall see neither as winner or loser. Those are absolute terms that have no real relevance (in my eyes at least) for the feat they are each undertaking. Yes, there will be bragging rights for who went furthest, but if they both break Tommy's Record, then they have both broken Tommy's Record. End of.

I almost feel sorry for the next people, who will have to break the (hopefully longer) HAMR 1 year record (whoever holds it).

As for the "it has to be done under exactly this, that or the other....." its probably best not to go there judging by the problems UCI have made for themselves with the Hour Record (which should be infinitely easier to administer than this one).

[rafletcher]

If Steve really does want to test himself against Tommy then do the ride as Tommy done all them years ago on the same sort of bike being the same weight and gearing, in the same kit eating the same food and drinking the same fluids.

Tommy didn't do the ride on the same bikes as his predecessors, why should Steve?  Tommy got paced by Raleigh pros, Steve isn't. There are differences. Get over it.

[HTFB]

If they'd left it to 2016 they could have gained an extra day's distance in the year. Though if either of them carries on to the 100k they'll meet the bissextile in the same place as Tommy.

[LMT]

If Steve really does want to test himself against Tommy then do the ride as Tommy done all them years ago on the same sort of bike being the same weight and gearing, in the same kit eating the same food and drinking the same fluids.

Tommy didn't do the ride on the same bikes as his predecessors, why should Steve?  Tommy got paced by Raleigh pros, Steve isn't. There are differences. Get over it.

I'm sorry, I thought looking at the OP Steve wanted to test himself against Tommy? What would be a more true test by undertaking the record the way that Tommy did?

As mentioned one cannot cherry pick the UMCA rules to suit one's self but discount someone else's effort based on where they're riding or what bike they are on.

FWIW I'd rather attempt the record in this country then where Kurt is, constantly turning a gear, no hills to get out of the saddle for, no downhills to free wheel down all the while looking at the same featureless horizon - that would drive me bonkers.

[LMT]

If they'd left it to 2016 they could have gained an extra day's distance in the year. Though if either of them carries on to the 100k they'll meet the bissextile in the same place as Tommy.

Nope, the UMCA is clear that it's 365 consecutive days.

[JohnR]

If Steve really does want to test himself against Tommy then do the ride as Tommy done all them years ago on the same sort of bike being the same weight and gearing, in the same kit eating the same food and drinking the same fluids.

People cherry picking the UMCA rules and discounting other peoples efforts is just lame. The mental commitment by Tarzan is more imo, even though Florida is flat it's featureless, dull and boring.

What claptrap! next you will be saying he should ride on the same roads with the same traffic and oh Tommy had slightly shorter legs than Steve so Steve must have an advantage there not to mention different training etc. blah blah.

Point is records are being broken all the time, invariably by people using modern equipment which is lighter etc than before, but those new records hold up as valid.

They are both athletes using their own weapons to suit their own terrain and capabilities etc. and as such either will be accepted as beating the record if they manage it.

I suspect Steve's bike is heavier than Tommy's with all the gear he is having to carry around with him and on much busier roads.

[citoyen]

Whether it's Guinness or the UMCA or whoever validating the record is not all that important - Guinness has designated itself the de facto 'official' body for validating world record attempts but frankly who cares whether or not they recognise Steve's (or Kurt's) efforts? I'm sure that should either Kurt or Steve wish to go down that route, they can persuade Guinness to 'validate' their record (with the application of cold hard cash).

[citoyen]

no downhills to free wheel down

Steve doesn't freewheel!

[Wowbagger]

From what little Steve has written on this board, I think he does want to beat Kurt.

Having said that, I don't think Steve needed UMCA. The technology is in existence for him to prove his achievement for all to see, with no possible doubt about its veracity. If Guinness thinks it can adjudicate what it does and does not recognise as a record on grounds of perceived safety, then they are just diminishing themselves. Do they not recognise Alan Hinkes' record as the first Briton to conquer all 14 8000' peaks? I would wager that there is a lot more risk in that than going for a 100000 mile bike ride. The internet, via Strava and this forum, will demonstrate the record.

Getting the UMCA involved has, however, brought Tarzan into the fray and that has added a lot of interest. Steve v Tommy was one thing, but Steve v Tommy with an intruder trying to spoil the party has added a great deal of extra excitement to the whole affair.

Will both, or either, finish? It's too early to say, but Tomsk and I were discussing the issue at the Essex Christmas do. We both felt that the only thing that would stop Steve would be injury or illness. On the basis that both Steve and Kurt are equally likely to sustain a ride-threatening injury, I think external factors are much more likely to handicap Kurt than Steve. Steve has completely cleared his life from everything but this ride for the whole of 2015. Kurt clearly hasn't.

Having said all that, if they both complete the year without injury or other interruption, on balance I would expect Kurt to do more miles than Steve. They will both beat Tommy, though, and by at least 10000 miles.

[Fidgetbuzz]

LMT - you appear to be fixated on the UMCA rules and position  but please read carefully what I wrote and stop to think for a moment-- there is no denigration of Kurts efforts anywhere, and I completely accept that Steve is riding to the UMCA rules ( although in my opinion they contain obvious absurdities )  - and I clearly said

My personal read is that this has become very different to Steve's original intention of testing himself against Tommy with as far as he could manage similar conditions.

It is obviously impossible to replicate exactly the conditions for any record -- whether cycling , running, swimming etc etc -- your  statement

If Steve really does want to test himself against Tommy then do the ride as Tommy done all them years ago on the same sort of bike being the same weight and gearing, in the same kit eating the same food and drinking the same fluids.

is I am afraid just ridiculous   - ie the weather today is actually different to the weather on 5th Feb 1939.

I stand by this sentence

If Steve does beat Tommys figure but is surpassed by Kurt under UMCA rules --  I would applaud them both -- but still  regard Steve as the true successor to Tommy, and not Kurt.

although clearly Kurt would then be the holder of the UMCA record.

There is absolutely no denigration of anyones efforts in my original post - more pointing out that the Godwin calendar year record has been overtaken by the UMCA rules -- which might well not accord with Steve's original objective.

[mrcharly-YHT]

Guinness only recognise records if the 'setter' has agreed the conditions with them before attempting the record, and paid their fee.

[duncan]

Fortunately, we all know what the definitive keeper of records is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_records#Men.27s_record

[aidan.f]

Well, whenever and however it ends I know who's story will be the best reading. IIRC TG already has a book deal.

[Jaded]

Day one: stayed up and rode my bike
Day two: got up and rode my bike
Day three: got up and rode my bike. Marsh Gibbon again!

[andyoxon]

Fortunately, we all know what the definitive keeper of records is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_records#Men.27s_record

That's an interesting list as it shows, from the outset, the international nature of the World Endurance record for distance in a calendar year that Tommy Godwin took part in, irrespective of the terrain/weather. 

Though I respect the efforts all current participants, I'm a Steve supporter hoping that he can stay ahead of Kurt, and by a decent winning margin at the end of 2015. 

[Charlie Boy]

If Steve does beat Tommys figure but is surpassed by Kurt under UMCA rules --  I would applaud them both -- but still  regard Steve as the true successor to Tommy, and not Kurt.

^This

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

I quite enjoy horse racing, and will be off to Cheltenham next month, where I expect I will place a few investments on the outcome of a a few of the races.  After a couple of fences I will know if my investment was on a no-hoper and was wasted, but otherwise it is likely to be sometime before I could predict the outcome of the race.

Teethgrinder and Tarzan have already shown that they are both decent contenders.  But just as the horse race there are plenty of fences to jump.  Fatigue and injury could set in.  So I'd speculate on the outcome at my peril.