Author Topic: Records, UMCA and legitimacy.  (Read 2973 times)

Records, UMCA and legitimacy.
« on: January 24, 2016, 03:33:09 pm »
Bruce going it alone has generated debate about legitimacy. I found a nice article about that subject. it revolves around the UMCA not owning RAAM. Fred and Rick are the Boethlings, who do own RAAM, and have since 2009.

Quote
The UMCA’s major source of legitimacy is that they have kept and hold all the records.  If you want to get your name in the book, they’re the folks with the book and the ones who do the writing.  You can go win Fred and Rick’s 6-12-24 World Championship, but that’s not how UMCA is going to write history.  That’s their power.  They’re essentially going the same route as the Audax Club Parisien, which is the governing body of randonneuring.  That august body’s authority stems from their being the people who created the world’s most famous randonneuring event, Paris-Brest-Paris.  They still own it and they require people to qualify for it by fairly strict procedures.  All of these things compel people to listen to them.  It’s notable that Doug Hoffman is so inspired by the randonneuring format that it was behind his decision to not make the new 500-mile series a kind of championship.  Rather, he’s gone for the “participation is its own greatest reward” format, just like ACP.

http://www.ultraracenews.com/2014/01/10/raam-umca-and-the-way-to-a-not-so-wild-west-of-ultra-cycling/

red marley

Re: Records, UMCA and legitimacy.
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2016, 04:06:15 pm »
I can see that the discussion in your linked piece would be relevant if one was considering the relative legitimacy of two regulating bodies, but I think Bruce's case is simpler. It rests on whether a rider's self-delcared total (albeit with some data shared via Strava and GarminConnect) is sufficient to give it legitimacy. I'd argue that a point of principle should be that those authenticating a record should have no particular interest in its outcome (which patently does not apply in any form of self-regulation).

So the question becomes, does a record on Strava/GarminConnect provide sufficient information for 'the crowd' to do that authentication? I'd argue that for reasons given in other threads about the relative ease of faking Strava uploads, and the fact that other considerations need also to be taken into account, such as motorised drafting, vehicle type etc., the answer is no.

Re: Records, UMCA and legitimacy.
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2016, 04:18:04 pm »
It's a similar situation to the UCI/ASO problems over the Tour de France. http://pelotonmagazine.com/wilcockson/wilcockson-origins-of-the-aso-uci-clashes/

It has a direct relevance to YACF, as one of our number was a 'World Champion' in 2014, under the RAAM banner. He's also won the Mersey Roads 24, which is UMCA sanctioned if you are a UMCA member.
http://www.willesdencyclingclub.co.uk/stuart-hippy-birnie-is-world-24hour-tt-champion/

It's all a bit of a cat's cradle.

Bianchi Boy

  • Cycling is my doctor
  • Ride ride ride
    • Reading Cycling Club
Re: Records, UMCA and legitimacy.
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2016, 05:12:00 pm »
Hi,

I think there are two things being confused here. One is the battle that exists in every sport about who governs and how it is officiated, and the other is how on earth do you legitimise a record that takes a whole year to complete? There has been cheating in marathons that take 4 hours to run on a closed course never mind an event that happens far away from any observers on open roads. The question here is who and how the mass of data is processed, stored, forensically analysed and the distance confirmed?

Now the UMCA is not doing this who is? Will we simply rely on the Strava total? In 5 years time if there is a challenge to the overall total who will have the original data and be able to uphold either the original result or the challenge?

I have a situation I would like to play through. Bruce beats Kurt by 10 miles based on Strava data values. Kurt has some analysis done and it shows over distance of 0.001% or one meter per kilometer or 10 times the amount Bruce has taken the record by? I rode LEJOG with someone in 2015 and the results differed by about 17km in 1,700km or 1%. We started and stopped at the same places and rode together most of the time. We used different units. He had a Garmin Edge 500 and me a eTrex 30.

Who holds the record and how do we work out who wins - or indeed can this be done since the difference appears to be within the inherent error of GPS?

Just a thought  ???

BB
SRx11 - in 11 years

Re: Records, UMCA and legitimacy.
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2016, 05:20:25 pm »
If you're reporting cycling, these 'Turf Wars' are part and parcel of the landscape. it's not worth explaining the political niceties to the punters.

The battle is to present yourself as the arbiter. Ultracycling isn't developed enough for that to be undisputed. Most would think that RAAM and the UMCA are congruent. Developing the format will be interesting.

windy

  • Sitting on a bog in the North Atlantic
    • My Instagram
Re: Records, UMCA and legitimacy.
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2016, 05:28:52 pm »
Just have a record for 'most strava miles in a year'and be done with it. ;)

Re: Records, UMCA and legitimacy.
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2016, 05:50:11 pm »
Randonneurs Mondiaux could offer an app.

crowriver

  • Крис Б
Re: Records, UMCA and legitimacy.
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2016, 05:54:28 pm »
Just have a record for 'most strava miles in a year'and be done with it. ;)

Yeah kinda similar to the record for most selfies on Instagram...  :thumbsup:
Embrace your inner Fred.

Bianchi Boy

  • Cycling is my doctor
  • Ride ride ride
    • Reading Cycling Club
Re: Records, UMCA and legitimacy.
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2016, 05:58:59 pm »
Just have a record for 'most strava miles in a year'and be done with it. ;)
My device showed 1% more than my mates. Could provoke a debate about device set up and how frequently you sample.

BB
SRx11 - in 11 years

windy

  • Sitting on a bog in the North Atlantic
    • My Instagram
Re: Records, UMCA and legitimacy.
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2016, 06:00:19 pm »
Just have a record for 'most strava miles in a year'and be done with it. ;)

Yeah kinda similar to the record for most selfies on Instagram...  :thumbsup:

 ;D




marcusjb

  • Full of bon courage.
    • Occasional wittering
Re: Records, UMCA and legitimacy.
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2016, 06:07:25 pm »
Wonder what the most kudos for a strava ride record is? 

He got nearly 1000 according to his email.  Massive (his word).

Steve regularly got well over 1000. I guess some of the pros may get even more.

Hmmm - let me google and see what Bruce needs to do.

Edit - Niki Terpstra Paris Roubaix win - http://www.strava.com/activities/130432764

8000+ kudos

Bruce has got his work cut out.
Right! What's next?

Ooooh. That sounds like a daft idea.  I am in!

Re: Records, UMCA and legitimacy.
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2016, 06:35:08 pm »
Randonneurs Mondiaux could offer an app.

It would probably come with a nasty virus.

Re: Records, UMCA and legitimacy.
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2016, 06:36:57 pm »
Randonneurs Mondiaux could offer an app.

It would probably come with a nasty virus.

Or just be a nasty assault on the eyes.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Records, UMCA and legitimacy.
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2016, 09:18:14 pm »
I was wondering about the relationship of the record attempts to the media. That's why I remembered a wacky endurance show on BBC3 in 2004. That had Andy Wilkinson in it.

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The concept is simple. Take twelve extreme endurance athletes - a fell runner, a biathlete, an extreme gymnast, and others. Take them to the Devon coast, and give them really, really difficult things to do. Make those really difficult things out of wood and metal, without using anything modern, and make these tasks have some vague connection to Greek mythology. Time how long everyone takes to complete the tasks. If everyone completes their task, then the slowest aggregate time leaves the show. Do something a bit clever towards the end of the run, otherwise we'll have no one left for the last show.

In concept, Hercules is - as it probably should be - an extreme form of Gladiators. The events don't need a "Don't try this at home" warning because no one is going to be so stupid as to try and run on a giant hamster wheel. In execution, though, it's not quite all there.

The first problem: who are these people? Because of the nature of the events, Hercules isn't going to get the sort of household names that were tempted for Superstars. Instead, we see people who are very famous in their own sports, but those pursuits struggle to get attention in the very small print Sport In Brief sections. Hercules does its best to introduce all the contestants as the days pass, but we can't help feeling that we don't know much about the early leavers.
http://www.ukgameshows.com/ukgs/Hercules

These days we can click on a whole page that looks the same as any other news, and it gives us a skewed view. In reality the media is running press releases, and they probably suspect that if they questioned it, they'd be sucked into a morass.

I think that Steve's team did very well to get him some mainstream media. It looks the same as the attention that Bruce is getting on the web, but it has an analogue presence which adds legitimacy.