Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Audax => PBP => Topic started by: JamesBradbury on 17 March, 2019, 10:03:06 am
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Having got PBP rather wrong in 2015 due partly to not be aware of how much time I had in hand, I've this year made a planning spreadsheet. I think someone did something similar for LEL and published it in Arrivee.
I'm not convinced any such plan will survive contact with the enemy - headwinds, mechanicals, etc. But I've found them helpful for knowing how far off track I am.
Perhaps someone has already produced something like this online somewhere, but I couldn't find anything. So I've put some instructions for modifying my Google Doc for your own start times and speed, so I hope it will be helpful to someone else. You could even copy and adapt it for other events.
PBP pace-planning spreadsheet (https://thinks.jamesbradbury.co.uk/paris-brest-paris-pace-plan/)
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A good idea imho is to make multiple possibilities, i.e. "best case scenario" / "worst case scenario" being the ends of the spectrum. That way, if you're behind your ideal plan but still within acceptable limits, you won't lose heart that you're "behind", because you'll still be in front of the worst case scenario.
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I agree, which is why I've made space for a fast and slow plan.
I think mostly is about having an easy answer to the question "what time do I need to leave this control" when your tired and your brain won't maths.
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I think mostly is about having an easy answer to the question "what time do I need to leave this control"
I printed out some key times, along with a control-leaving checklist (got wallet? filled bidons?) on waterproof paper, and taped it to my top tube for LEL.
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I made a schedule for an event once: the first Crackpot, because it was a condition of entry.
I calculated moving and rest times and came to a total time well over the limit (it was set at 65hrs originally). So I shaved each section until it fitted, with a little leaway, and posted the resulting work of fiction off. Afterwards Shawn told me mine was the most accurate one of the lot.
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There was a time when I mocked my old riding partner Mr Thomas for writing schedules, but I have started to use them, especially on long rides.
The trick is to 1) be realistic with your riding speed and 2) allow faff time.
I do have my schedule from 2015 and a comparison with actual times which I will dust off on a quiet afternoon at work.
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for me - the schedule would add another thing to worry about. just ride according to your ability and minimise faff/control time.
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for me - the schedule would add another thing to worry about. just ride according to your ability and minimise faff/control time.
You are a fast rider Mr Zigzag. I had the same opinion at that time. If you are pushed by time limits the view is different.
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I made a schedule for an event once: the first Crackpot, because it was a condition of entry.
I calculated moving and rest times and came to a total time well over the limit (it was set at 65hrs originally). So I shaved each section until it fitted, with a little leaway, and posted the resulting work of fiction off. Afterwards Shawn told me mine was the most accurate one of the lot.
This gave me a giggle. And also shock at the fact that you were required to produce such a thing; did you need to factor in the inevitable extra distance thanks to the legendary character of the Wessex series route sheets?
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I made a schedule for an event once: the first Crackpot, because it was a condition of entry.
This gave me a giggle. And also shock at the fact that you were required to produce such a thing; did you need to factor in the inevitable extra distance thanks to the legendary character of the Wessex series route sheets
You are failing to take account of @Ian H's legendary ability, honed over decades, to decipher all manner of route sheets, including his own.
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I think mostly is about having an easy answer to the question "what time do I need to leave this control" when your tired and your brain won't maths.
This can be somewhat simplified based on the idea that you don't need a spreadsheet or maths to tell you the answer at any control at which you don't sleep - because the answer is simply "as soon as I've done everything I need to do". If that includes a 10 minute powernap then so be it, but you don't want to be either rushing, or conversely, hanging around.
I still think it's easier to plan where to sleep, or at least plan where to have your 'main' sleeps, because the (addled) human brain can do calculations in days much easier than it can in hours. We need to beware of allowing the flexibility of being able to sleep at any control from actually making things more complicated!
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for me - the schedule would add another thing to worry about. just ride according to your ability and minimise faff/control time.
You are a fast rider Mr Zigzag. I had the same opinion at that time. If you are pushed by time limits the view is different.
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i was near time limits during lel 2009, same strategy applies. you can't magically start riding at twice the speed you are capable of. if you leave a control when it's closing, just keep riding without stopping to hopefully build a time buffer for some rest or a nap.
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Obviously pace plans are not everyone's preferred way to organise a long ride. But I found it really helpful on the mille cymru last year.
If all you're looking to do is ride eat sleep then I can see that makes it very simple.
For me the plan can help me know whether I have time to stop and chat for five minutes or go a little off route looking for a nice bakery, take photos, smell the roses, etc.
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My general strategy has changed on this:
To start with I went into the LEL with a complex spreadsheet plan A & plan B. After the first night unable to sleep when my plans both said I should :facepalm: I decided to ignore it & just look at time in hand according to my brevet :thumbsup:
Then on WCW I got caught out looking at the control times on my brevet - they were calculated to an over-distance route, but the finish time was strict BRM... I didn't notice until there were only 2-3 controls left and had it not been for a stonking tailwind at the end I'd have been way out of time... :facepalm:
So now on long rides I simply take a note of the 'real' closing times for my start time & the route (i.e taking into account the total distance and hard time of the last control) - I then strive to make sure I leave any given control within that time limit. :thumbsup:
I realised on the BoB ride last year that I could even find peace with being over those limits. I knew that the end of the ride was flat, I went almost 4 hours over the intermediate control closing times but finished with nearly 2 hours to spare :) Sure, I would have liked not to be so far over time in the middle, but I simply couldn't do any better due to indecent, my legs & those hills (i figured I'd only stop if they told me I was out of time)
So for PBP - I'll check my control closing times, strive to stick with them, but if they start to slip past will just keep the faffing down to as little as possible & try to keep moving as much as possible.
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I made one to try and work out my likely progress. You can find the file in the DB link https://www.dropbox.com/s/bcstsxvakv2z59n/Timings.xlsx?dl=0
I should caveat that I made various assumptions, not all are likely to be correct
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I made a spreadsheet for borders of belgium but then instead of actually taking it with me on the go, basically just remembered the 'main' numbers / a few key times distilled from it. This seemed to work pretty well.
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Yes, having a plan or three is a good thing [TM] especially on the way back when things start to go a bit twilight zone.
In 2015 I must have been a bit gubbed at Loudeac on the retour as I
- forgot to get my card stamped (thus incurring a post event 2 hr penalty but still got validated OK as I crossed the line sub 88hrs)
- left my helmet there (and didn't realise til I was about 20km down the road as I had a buff covering my head).
and ended up getting mightily confused over how much time I had in hand for subsequent controls - I was OK at Tinteniac but had it in mind I had bags of time to get to Fougeres and kipped by the roadside, had a sit down lunch, then went via Decathlon in Fougeres before the control to buy a replacement helmet.
I was in time but not by much and had I realised correctly Id have not had the sit down lunch. Id tried to buy a helmet at Tinteniac but the guy just laughed at me as there were none left, apparently loads of riders do it. So as long as its not hosing it down, perhaps its a good idea to fix my helmet to the bike on arrival *. I suspect that for most full value 90 hr riders its these two controls where time might be at its tightest. The bit to Villaines has been an opportunity to gobble up easier kms (and to buy extra time) in my experience.
This year i will definitely aim to have a better idea of timings AND will stick an aide memoire on my bike along the lines of "On leaving the control check have you had your card stamped!!! "
* Of course bikes can also be lost on PBP.
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Knowing the control closing times is essential - then you have an idea of how much time you have in hand.
I stopped using schedules because they made me feel stressed because I couldn't stick to them !
Minimising faff and knowing the cut-off times is less stressful - for me at least. Everyone's different though, of course ....
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Knowing the control closing times is essential - then you have an idea of how much time you have in hand.
That's pretty much my thinking too. Or, rather, knowing the latest I need to leave each control by in order to be reasonably sure of making the next before it closes for my wave.
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I just work off control closing times. I look at the control closing time in the brevet card when I arrive and from that note how much time in hand I have and decide how much of that I'd like to use. I know how much sleep I need to maintain my moving average speed on the road. I also know how much buffer I like to leave with after a sleep stop. So I factor that into my stops so I have an extra amount of buffer to use up for sleep each day. The only time I plan a schedule is for Easter Arrows where you are basically herding cats.
A simple way of looking at it on the road is assume you average 20km/h on the road, and that the min average stays at 15km/h (it drops on way back) all the way round. Then for every three hours of riding you will gain an hour of stop time. Use 30 mins of that stop time every three hours and after 18 hours that gives you three hours of sleep time. Ride through the first 24 hours or more and you have more sleep time to bank.
If you are not able to get to sleep, then riding slowly is faster than being stopped.
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A simple way of looking at it on the road is assume you average 20km/h on the road, and that the min average stays at 15km/h (it drops on way back) all the way round. Then for every three hours of riding you will gain an hour of stop time. Use 30 mins of that stop time every three hours and after 18 hours that gives you three hours of sleep time. Ride through the first 24 hours or more and you have more sleep time to bank.
I think this is very sensible. The more so given that your average on the road will almost certainly be higher than that during the first 24h, and the overall min ends up way lower than 15. The first three hours of riding will very likely put 2 hours in your back pocket. Once you have that, the rest of the event is simply a matter of riding what's in front of you with no worries.
Everyone's different, but my personal strategy for any cycle ride however short or long (up to 1400km, my longest) has always been "go as hard as I can, for as long as I can". All this keeping something back 'just in case' does nothing for me - my simple aim is maximum time buffer as quickly as possible, then if 'just in case' does happen I have time to deal with it. To help achieve this I carbo-load like mad before the event and sugar-load whilst waiting at the start.
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I would agree with the above for sure.
You are likely to be able to shave considerable time off your fastest 200 and 300 to date - partly because of the trains and partly because it is a long way to the first control so you are encouraged to get on with it.
I used to use spreadsheets, but experience now tells me what I need to do and where I will be; if figures go southward, then experience has also taught me not to panic and to work out what I need to do about it.
But, yes, rough maths off the brevet card times is enough to tell you what is going on.
And if you arrive at a control you had ear marked to sleep at and you are not yet sleepy - carry on. (If you are sleepy and there is no bed, then sleep wherever you can even for 45 mins).
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...did you need to factor in the inevitable extra distance thanks to the legendary character of the Wessex series route sheets?
They're only legendary now because they haven't evolved much over the years. Back in the day they were state-of-the-art.
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Slightly off topic, but does anyone know how control timings work for PBP? The The ACP RULES OF BREVETS RANDONNEURS MONDIAUX (http://www.audax-club-parisien.com/EN/322.html) (from 200km to 1000km) state:
Article 10 :
Opening: 34 km / h (km 1 to 200); 32 km / h (km 201 to 400); 30 km / h (km 401 to 600); 28 km / h (km 601 to 1000); commercial rounded by the minute.
Closing: 1 hour + 20 km / h (km 1 to 60); 15 km / h (km 61 to 600); 11.428 km / h (km 601 to 1000); commercial rounded by the minute.
But applying those rules to the published times for PBP 11 (http://www.randonneurs.bc.ca/pbp/misc-2011/Dossier_EN_PBP_2011.pdf) (so I can confirm my maths) doesn't work, Even simple calculations for closing times for the first few controls at the 15km/h minimum speed quickly fall apart.
For instance, for an 18:00 Sunday start:
Montagne at 140KM @ 15km/h = 9.33h (9h 20m – closes at Mon 03:20) matches ACP's time, as do the times for next three controls.
Tinteniac at 364km @15km/h = 24.26h (24h 16m – closes at Tue 18:16) doesn't match – ACP says 18:38, and times are out for the remainder of controls < 600km.
Am I overlooking something here, or does ACP just fudge the control times for some reason?
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This was answered in another thread. PBP is its own game with its own rules.
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Slightly off topic, but does anyone know how control timings work for PBP? The The ACP RULES OF BREVETS RANDONNEURS MONDIAUX (http://www.audax-club-parisien.com/EN/322.html) (from 200km to 1000km) state:
Article 10 :
Opening: 34 km / h (km 1 to 200); 32 km / h (km 201 to 400); 30 km / h (km 401 to 600); 28 km / h (km 601 to 1000); commercial rounded by the minute.
Closing: 1 hour + 20 km / h (km 1 to 60); 15 km / h (km 61 to 600); 11.428 km / h (km 601 to 1000); commercial rounded by the minute.
But applying those rules to the published times for PBP 11 (http://www.randonneurs.bc.ca/pbp/misc-2011/Dossier_EN_PBP_2011.pdf) (so I can confirm my maths) doesn't work, Even simple calculations for closing times for the first few controls at the 15km/h minimum speed quickly fall apart.
For instance, for an 18:00 Sunday start:
Montagne at 140KM @ 15km/h = 9.33h (9h 20m – closes at Mon 03:20) matches ACP's time, as do the times for next three controls.
Tinteniac at 364km @15km/h = 24.26h (24h 16m – closes at Tue 18:16) doesn't match – ACP says 18:38, and times are out for the remainder of controls < 600km.
Am I overlooking something here, or does ACP just fudge the control times for some reason?
PBP does not fall into any of those distance classifications.
The minimum speed required gradually drops towards Brest then drops even further as you return. For instance in the 90hr the minimum overall average to Brest was 14.15km/h in 2015. There are different requirements for the 84hr and 80hr groups.
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So if you take the ACP rule of 15 kph upto 600km your either on or ahead of schedule of the PBP rules? That would work for me wrt planning (yes, I like spreadsheets too)
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I can't do this laissez faire see how you feel malarkay.
I like a plan, and I aim to stick to the plan. Sometimes it goes to shit, but generally, the plan works.
This is partly because I don't sleep in bus shelters. I like to have a shower and sleep in a bed, ideally only sharing a room someone I know and like. This generally means I'll book somewhere off piste to sleep where I can escape from the event and recharge.
Horses, as they say, for courses.
The 2011 & 2015 spreadsheets will be dusted off and updated, and the 2019 edition will be running on my phone for me to check during ride. If the schedule says we eat, we eat. If the schedule says we sleep, we sleep. The driver gets more leeway and extra naps because I'll do the admin and chores off the bike.
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The driver gets more leeway and extra naps because I'll do the admin and chores off the bike.
Mmmm... extra naps. Zzzzz...
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I can't do this laissez faire see how you feel malarkay.
I like a plan, and I aim to stick to the plan.
I remember meeting you at Villaines on the way back in 2011. I was riding steadily towards a daytime finish. You seemed to be on a bit of a caffeine high, and targeting 84 hours. So I recalibrated my pace towards that target myself. I think you had two hours on me at that point, as you were in the free-start.
There had been some possibility that I might have needed to help the Crawford tandem out, as Colin had terrible saddle-soreness, and Sonya had to finish for purposes of morale, following a cancer diagnosis. Arrangements were in hand for a complex swap, so I was free to press on.
I did 83.50, and you did 83.39.
A lot of plans changed in 2011, due to favourable winds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INaQh_TVp7w
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I wrote myself a schedule and sellotaped it to the inside of the lid of my bar bag in 2011, when I rode my mountain bike.
I liked it because I'd done the math at home, not out on the road when I'm tired, so I could just get on and enjoy the ride.
The main reason was to have a low speed to aim for and that if I rode as slow as approx 20kph and kept my stop time down to what I had on my schedule, I would get a full night's sleep on all but the 1st night.
I never started above pace and rode with a heart rate monitor so that I didn't start too hard. It felt silly easy and I often went into the middle chainring for easy climbs as lots or riders flew past. I never overtook a single rider on the road until 400km. But because I never went so hard on the bike and ate on the move (except for a scheduled hour at a roadside restaurant/bar each day) I was never in need of food or rest at controls and always felt eager to press on.
I had a good (8hr IIRC) sleep at Cahraix and arrived at Brest with about an hour in hand, but feeling good. I was scheduled my daily meal at Brest, but it looked like a long trek to the food at the control, so I hit the road and had a leisurely feed at Sizun.
Because of the slower minimum speed for the return, I scheduled for a slightly lower riding speed, but my speed didn't really drop, which meant more time to spend at cafes etc. But, because I never rode so hard on the way out and could still ride pretty relaxed, I was more eager to press on than rest. I got a bit ahead of schedule, which allowed a large beer at around 10am. That meant I needed to stop in a grass verge for a snooze not long after ;D But by then, I knew it wasn't going to be that tough to finish and I was going for maximum enjoyent. I did get into a group on the last night with the late Dave Lewis and ended up going full tilt for a while until we got to the control. That was foolish, but it was fun! Dave pressed on to the finish, but as it was night time and my legs were shot I didn't see the point in pushing through the night to arrive at the finish in the early hours. So I bought a large beer and went to bed.
Up ealry the next morning, riding past lots of people sleeping on the roadside, then stopped for a leisurely coffee+cake before the last few miles, passing more sleeping bodies at the roadside. I was tired, but not wrecked and I never felt bad for the whole ride. I did have ups and downs, just never felt that bad.
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Early UK PBP riders tended to be long-distance time triallists. So they had time and distance equations running in their heads throughout most of their serious rides. There wasn't a lot else to think about before the distractions of technology, and converting miles to km and back provided some additional diversion.
I can see the use of spreadsheets for those who aren't from a background where hitting time targets is ingrained.
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converting miles to km and back provided some additional diversion
This is part of the fun of audax - what else do you think about? :)
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This year i will definitely aim to have a better idea of timings AND will stick an aide memoire on my bike along the lines of "On leaving the control check have you had your card stamped!!! "
Or you can do as I often do and stop a mile after leaving the control to check the card is there and has been stamped. :facepalm:
My strategy is "stamp first, everything else after that".
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Massive, avoidable time suck at PBP - do not forget to take your bidons off the bike and into the control with you.
It can be (at least) a 5 minute round trip back to the bike and then to the taps if you forget.
It’s faffing like that that can easily lose you an hour of sleep potential over the ride.
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There's a point upthread about a skew in the control times - that's definitely the case for the 80 hour group, which has a 36 hour cut-off at Brest, giving 44 hours to return. That makes it difficult to take much sleep on the way to Brest for the vedettes. However, that worked for me - I tend to be able to do more distance on day 1 of multiday events that subsequent days.
I'm fortunate enough not to be under time pressure, but if I was likely to be a full value rider, I'd aim to build up a buffer by the time I got to Brest. And I think the organisers have probably got it about right - aiming to be 8 hours faster out than you are back. That might be impacted by strong westerly winds (heaven forbid) on the way to Brest, but I'd adjust my schedule for bad weather accordingly (knowing I should have a few hours in hand).
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This year i will definitely aim to have a better idea of timings AND will stick an aide memoire on my bike along the lines of "On leaving the control check have you had your card stamped!!! "
Or you can do as I often do and stop a mile after leaving the control to check the card is there and has been stamped. :facepalm:
My strategy is "stamp first, everything else after that".
Now that is also a very good idea. :thumbsup:
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I make schedule spreadsheets for most rides of 600km and over. I tend to be optimistic and try to make it a realistic best case scenario only, but I’m aware that there is likely to slippage due to conditions, stuff happening and my suboptimal performance, so I round up my overall target time to the next round figure. I then work out the average overall speed required to finish in that time and round it up slightly. This is the figure I set the track speed to when I load the route for the whole ride onto my Garmin. I don’t use pause or auto pause so the virtual partner function will tell me how I’m doing plus or minus throughout the ride. If I finish before my virtual partner I avoid hearing the annoying little tune it plays when it beats me.
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Or you can do as I often do and stop a mile after leaving the control to check the card is there and has been stamped.
I left a short piece of the LEL brevet neck strap dangling out of my saddle bag so that - every five minutes - I could check it was there while riding without stopping.
My strategy is "stamp first, everything else after that".
The layout of most LEL controls made it quite hard *not* to do this. Are PBP ones different?
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It can be (at least) a 5 minute round trip back to the bike and then to the taps if you forget.
If arrangements are the same this year at Fougères, time can be saved by riding all the way to the card-stamping building and the back to the restaurant/sleeping facilities, rather than parking your bike near the entrance and walking everywhere.
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Early UK PBP riders tended to be long-distance time triallists. So they had time and distance equations running in their heads throughout most of their serious rides. There wasn't a lot else to think about before the distractions of technology, and converting miles to km and back provided some additional diversion.
I can see the use of spreadsheets for those who aren't from a background where hitting time targets is ingrained.
...or are young enough to know how to use spreadsheets.
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Early UK PBP riders tended to be long-distance time triallists. So they had time and distance equations running in their heads throughout most of their serious rides. There wasn't a lot else to think about before the distractions of technology, and converting miles to km and back provided some additional diversion.
I can see the use of spreadsheets for those who aren't from a background where hitting time targets is ingrained.
...or are young enough to know how to use spreadsheets.
A spreadsheet is just a fancy calculator.
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Slightly off topic, but does anyone know how control timings work for PBP?
Even simple calculations for closing times for the first few controls at the 15km/h minimum speed quickly fall apart.
Am I overlooking something here, or does ACP just fudge the control times for some reason?
I too find the lack of information on minimum speeds and control closing times a bit surprising. I don't plan to be riding/stopping/sleeping at anywhere near the minimum average speed but I'd still like to know before I pick up my brevet card.
After mining info from the RUSA site I have used these formulae in my spreadsheet:
=N$1+(K4*43.5/(24*611))
[where N$1 is start time, K4 = cumulative distance (on the way out), 43.5 hours is how long the 90 hour starts have got to get to Brest (@611km), and 24 = no of hours in the day]
and for closing times on the way back:
=P$10+((K14-611)*46.5/(24*607))
[where P$10 is the closing time at Brest (start + 43.5 hours), (K14-611) = cumulative distance (from Brest), 46.5 hours is how long the 90 hour starts have got to get back from Brest, 607km is the distance back, and 24 = no of hours in the day]
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Early UK PBP riders tended to be long-distance time triallists. So they had time and distance equations running in their heads throughout most of their serious rides. There wasn't a lot else to think about before the distractions of technology, and converting miles to km and back provided some additional diversion.
I can see the use of spreadsheets for those who aren't from a background where hitting time targets is ingrained.
...or are young enough to know how to use spreadsheets.
I'm old enough to have been trained to use 'manual' spreadsheets. As a contractor I've always needed to be aware of contribution to profit, so I have a shrewd idea of the time of day when income exceeds expenses. The aim is to hit that point as quickly and smoothly as possible, and go into cruise mode, as the £ signs flash before my eyes.
I'll be using my year-end spreadsheet to assess my potential pension contribution later on.
The Brevet Card is essentially a spreadsheet, with target windows, and space for current performance. That suffices for the core task, which is riding the course.
I've attached subsidiary tasks following my first completion in 1999. 2003 was getting Heather round, and making a film. 2007 was making a more involved film, with Heather in support, with a Press pass. 2011 was much the same, but with my friend Dave Robinson filming as well, and with more online communication. In 2015 I started, but planned to ride to Mortagne only, as I'd had an eye operation, and wasn't supposed to exert myself. My improved vision meant I could pilot a motorbike, while Dave filmed.
Filming demands the opposite of a steady pace, as the aim is to record a variety of participants. The most rational approach to pacing means that you tend to see the same small group of riders.
A varied pace within 'the Bulge', is the most satisfying way to get to Brest, as it's very sociable, but only if the anxiety of sleeping and eating is removed by having support, with a vehicle to sleep in, and someone to queue for food.
The return from Brest is the interesting part of the ride, as it's unknown territory for many, and people start to exhibit strange behaviours. The usual advice is to race to Brest, and tour back. Filming means that the reverse of that is the best course of action. Start as early as possible, fall back through the field, pay attention to the 84 hour riders passing between Villaines and Tinteniac, sleep in the car at Loudeac, while Heather films the mayhem, and arrive at Brest between 40 hours and the cutoff, having stopped for a coffee and pastry at Huelgoat, and sandwiches and a dessert from the shop at Sizun.
In 2011 I trained specifically to be able to be able to make up time at night. I concentrated on riding as effectively as possible during the dark hours of the Mersey Roads 24, which involved not dressing too much. I've got hours of video of the 24, PBP and LEL, and a common fault is to put on all the clothing you have at night, to cope with descents, but to leave those clothes on as the day warms up. That becomes more of a problem as the ride progresses and concentration slips beyond Brest.
I'd typically be managing three cameras, with associated batteries and media on the bike, so I didn't want the distraction of other bits of tech. If I fell behind schedule, Heather would take two cameras, and tell me to get a move on. As part of the training was 25 mile time trials, I could up the pace as needed.
The result is that my strategy is the opposite of the usual behaviour, but it has given me an insight into what the usual behaviour consists of. The main stumbling blocks are poor clothing and control discipline on the return, and that's especially true of first-time riders who are in a foreign land, both literally and figuratively. Those problems are compounded by the learning process surrounding practical tasks. The significance of advice isn't obvious unless it's backed up by experience, especially when that novel experience is riding over 350 extra miles over previous efforts.
It's worth managing the ride to be alert on the way back, as it's interesting to see the various ways that the wheels fall off the various planning strategies.
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@Ajax_bay:
A bit of googling will get you the times from previous events.
This is far more reliable than trying to calculate it - put your formulae fancy calculators down!
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With the new starting point and modified route, times from previous years could easily be out by an hour if not more.
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With the new starting point and modified route, times from previous years could easily be out by an hour if not more.
You still get 90 hours to finish a shorter ride, so planning on previous cards gives you more of a cushion. 1999 was the opposite, with extra miles due to roadworks, now that was a problem.
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A spreadsheet is just a fancy calculator.
I can remember when we weren't allowed to take our sliderules into exams.
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I wrote myself a schedule and sellotaped it to the inside of the lid of my bar bag in 2011, when I rode my mountain bike.
<...>
2011 good times!.. chilling on the night before the start
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190319/27f2775d29e3fa3a8cad3d2d3144854c.jpg)
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After much experimentation with spreadsheets (and taking into account an inability to read numbers, let alone comprehend them, after more than a day awheel) i came up with a graphical interface.
Basically two saw-tooth profiles of time-in-hand against distance. Upper one is how things should go ..., the lower one is for when it all goes pear-shaped. So long as actual time-in-hand remains between the two lines all is well. Drop below the lower line and it's time to think about packing, or 'emergency action' such as riding through the night with no sleep.
This usually only works for the first couple of days, then either spreadsheet copy on the phone gets corrupted, or I can no longer be arsed to enter up arrival & departure times at each control, but it provides a "fun" distraction while it lasts.
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My back of the envelope calculation for 70h.
30h out, sleep 4h, 36h back.
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My back of the envelope calculation for 70h.
30h out, sleep 4h, 36h back.
That's very close to what I've done the last two times - except faster out, 5h sleep at Brest and then another 5h sleep at Villaines.
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@Ajax_bay:
A bit of googling will get you the times from previous events.
This is far more reliable than trying to calculate it - put your formulae fancy calculators down!
Talk (typing) is cheap and effortless, Matt. If these data were easily googled, the question wouldn't have been asked (or I could have answered with a definitive site). As at least one other has said 'I like spreadsheets too'.
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Here you are, knock yourself out. http://dcrand.org/blog/2015/07/09/cue-sheets-gps-files-and-planning-spreadsheet-for-pbp-2015/ gives opening and closing times for all controls for PBP15 90hr. It took about 3 minutes to find.
I prefer Jo's http://gicentre.org/pbp2015/ though
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Hark at all you lot talk about pace planning!
Have a bit of empathy will you for those folk that are just too slow to even contemplate devising a pace plan in the first place, never mind trying to put one into action.
Turn up.
Ride.
See what 'appens.
Simples :-)
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Hark at all you lot talk about pace planning!
Have a bit of empathy will you for those folk that are just too slow to even contemplate devising a pace plan in the first place, never mind trying to put one into action.
This is PBP. And your leisure time. Chill out and enjoy the event
Turn up.
Ride.
See what 'appens.
Simples :-)
Been done that. Having to lie down in a ditch because you’ve gone cross eyed with tiredness is so 2007.
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My back of the envelope calculation for 70h.
30h out, sleep 4h, 36h back.
That was my plan in 1991 except I was going for a 69 so had an hour less sleep!
I found Brest a bit too far for a first sleep from a 90 hour evening start that time so slept for 5 hours at Carhaix in 1995 and found I was then refreshed enough to ride for another 25 hours to Villaines where I only needed a one hour sleep to see me through to the finish. I was so pleased with how this worked that I tried a similar strategy in 1999, 2003, 2007 and 2011 but I was getting slower each time and only just finished in under 70 hours in 2011 after taking about 39 hours to reach Brest.
By 2015 I was doing more cycling and had a carbon bike so had the confidence to go for an 84 hour start. The strategy was still similar except sleeping before the start instead of at Carhaix. This start suited me better and I shaved over 3 hours off my previous quickest time. I’m registered for the same Group Z start this year.
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Slightly off topic, but does anyone know how control timings work for PBP?
Even simple calculations for closing times for the first few controls at the 15km/h minimum speed quickly fall apart.
Am I overlooking something here, or does ACP just fudge the control times for some reason?
I too find the lack of information on minimum speeds and control closing times a bit surprising. I don't plan to be riding/stopping/sleeping at anywhere near the minimum average speed but I'd still like to know before I pick up my brevet card.
After mining info from the RUSA site I have used these formulae in my spreadsheet:
=N$1+(K4*43.5/(24*611))
[where N$1 is start time, K4 = cumulative distance (on the way out), 43.5 hours is how long the 90 hour starts have got to get to Brest (@611km), and 24 = no of hours in the day]
and for closing times on the way back:
=P$10+((K14-611)*46.5/(24*607))
[where P$10 is the closing time at Brest (start + 43.5 hours), (K14-611) = cumulative distance (from Brest), 46.5 hours is how long the 90 hour starts have got to get back from Brest, 607km is the distance back, and 24 = no of hours in the day]
Through curiosity I've knocked up a sheet based on the distances on the offical info sheet and your formulae with my pre-reg start time.
https://1drv.ms/x/s!AlB7bV6RdTovht1fHb_dPUexamhu6Q
The most important bit of information for me on that is that based on what I learnt about my sleep needs on BGB (that I can keep going till around Midnight the following night on an evening start)
Is that to have any chance of making Brest before sleeping I'll need to average 20kmh.
More realistically I'll get to Carhaix.... Bugger.
However on BGB I got up around 10am, had an easyish day on trains then got a few mins sleep in the back garden of the scout hut in a bivvy bag but with not enough layers to really sleep, where as for PBP my thoughts are to try and sleep till just before check out time at midday which I'm perfectly capable of... and hope that lets me stay awake that bit longer.
hm...
Don't really have an evening start planned to try that out on though.
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Looking for an accurate formula for control opening/closing times is going to be an impossible task so give up on that now. The formula does not exist.
Like most Brevet cards the control opening/closing times will be based on distances that aren't officially published (but somewhere between the minimum distance between controls and the expected route between controls) and a minimum average speed that changes defying all logic, and then modified per control with a liberal application of Gallic shrugging whilst mumbling "Bof".
They haven't even decided on the final route yet.
I've done my fair share of over-planning in the past but doing an SR series cured me of that. Reality > Plans.
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By 2015 I was doing more cycling and had a carbon bike so had the confidence to go for an 84 hour start. The strategy was still similar except sleeping before the start instead of at Carhaix. This start suited me better and I shaved over 3 hours off my previous quickest time. I’m registered for the same Group Z start this year.
I don't see much mention here of just how badly the evening start puts you on the back foot. I experienced this on my 3rd PBP with an 8pm start - having previously started at 10am both times - that evening start and consequent sleepiness turned PBP into a "never again" experience for me.
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I don't see much mention here of just how badly the evening start puts you on the back foot. I experienced this on my 3rd PBP with an 8pm start - having previously started at 10am both times - that evening start and consequent sleepiness turned PBP into a "never again" experience for me.
Not having done it before, that's one of my primary concerns. I've ridden round the clock before having started fresh im the morning but that strikes me as a very different proposition to having been up all day and thenriding for 30+ hours before sleeping.
Going back in 2023 I'll have been through it before, so probably won't feel the need beforehand to attempt to rough out a schedule. I may not keep to the one I've roughed out for this year but, if nothing else, working out where I might have enough buffer built up to grab some sleep has helped me get a better understanding of quite what I've taken on.
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I don't see much mention here of just how badly the evening start puts you on the back foot. I experienced this on my 3rd PBP with an 8pm start - having previously started at 10am both times - that evening start and consequent sleepiness turned PBP into a "never again" experience for me.
I think the evening start suits some people more than others. It works for me, as I find I'm able to cycle through the night relatively easily when I've not ridden through the previous day. It also means that by the second night I'm sufficiently tired to sleep early and get up early, generally avoiding the impact of the bulge as far as possible.
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Looking for an accurate formula for control opening/closing times is going to be an impossible task so give up on that now. The formula does not exist.
Like most Brevet cards the control opening/closing times will be based on distances that aren't officially published (but somewhere between the minimum distance between controls and the expected route between controls) and a minimum average speed that changes defying all logic, and then modified per control with a liberal application of Gallic shrugging whilst mumbling "Bof".
They haven't even decided on the final route yet.
I've done my fair share of over-planning in the past but doing an SR series cured me of that. Reality > Plans.
well yeah, I've not done that sheet in order to know when the controls actually open and close, that'll be on the card, sort of... But I know this already.
The arrival times based on rough distances at different speeds is of much more use for me to figure out if there is a possibility of managing the first "half" before sleeping, it looks like it's border line, if I get on a few trains and manage to exceed a 20kmh average then my sleep pattern with try to sleep as far into the day at the start possible should cope with it, if not then I need to think about stopping for a snooze on the way out.
It's the rough idea I need not a fixed plan!
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You still get 90 hours to finish a shorter ride, so planning on previous cards gives you more of a cushion.
I've just had a compare of the distances and *all* of the distances are lower in 2019, albeit only by single digits. That would suggest to me slightly earlier closing times on the way out, maybe later on the way back.
The biggest differences might be towards the end when controls will be about 20 km closer to the finish, so hopefully open much later.
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By 2015 I was doing more cycling and had a carbon bike so had the confidence to go for an 84 hour start. The strategy was still similar except sleeping before the start instead of at Carhaix. This start suited me better and I shaved over 3 hours off my previous quickest time. I’m registered for the same Group Z start this year.
I don't see much mention here of just how badly the evening start puts you on the back foot. I experienced this on my 3rd PBP with an 8pm start - having previously started at 10am both times - that evening start and consequent sleepiness turned PBP into a "never again" experience for me.
I was fine with the evening starts until 2011 when I’d hardly slept for the three nights before starting. It was so bad I had to stop for a sleep in a haystack after about 180km (45km before the first control!) and I didn’t make it to Carhaix until Bulge O’clock when folks were queuing outside in the rain for beds. It was carnage in the dining room too, but I found a pile of the cardboard they were putting on the floor in a big closet and slept on that for a few hours. I could function normally again after that and still did a reasonable overall time. Ideally I like starting between 0900 and 1000. 0530 is the best I can get for the PBP.
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An evening start is superb for me. I function quite well in the evening and have no issues with a Siesta. So with an evening start I can ride till about 4am in the 2nd night. Which for PBP usually means 10-20km short of Carhaix.
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After much experimentation with spreadsheets (and taking into account an inability to read numbers, let alone comprehend them, after more than a day awheel) i came up with a graphical interface.
Basically two saw-tooth profiles of time-in-hand against distance. Upper one is how things should go ..., the lower one is for when it all goes pear-shaped. So long as actual time-in-hand remains between the two lines all is well. Drop below the lower line and it's time to think about packing, or 'emergency action' such as riding through the night with no sleep.
This usually only works for the first couple of days, then either spreadsheet copy on the phone gets corrupted, or I can no longer be arsed to enter up arrival & departure times at each control, but it provides a "fun" distraction while it lasts.
You could have an idea there. If you were to be able to have that, but on a mobile app - is that something that people would find useful?
So if you were to be able to look at your phone, and it could instantly tell you: "You have x hours y minutes in hand." (Based on having done p km towards a target of Q km)". The only two complications would be intermediate controls, if you wanted to be in time for all those you would have to tell it where they were and the cutoff time, and if you went off course, you would have to tell it by how far manually, otherwise it would be giving you an overly optimistic reading.
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If you have a Garmin device that supports IQ apps then you can install Randonneur Control Close Calculator (https://apps.garmin.com/nl-NL/apps/dffac81c-f7b7-42e7-bd9d-1875db9a6d1a) which shows time in hand.
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If you have a Garmin device that supports IQ apps then you can install Randonneur Control Close Calculator (https://apps.garmin.com/nl-NL/apps/dffac81c-f7b7-42e7-bd9d-1875db9a6d1a) which shows time in hand.
Except that app assumes that ACP have applied their rules to the PBP distances - which they didn't seem to in 2015.
Broadly the closing times in 2015 appear to reflect closing times to Tinteniac (~400km) requiring 15kph and then dropping off to about 14kph (average) to Brest. The closing time there (90 hour start) offered riders 43.4 hours (my earlier formula used 43.5).
The distance there was 613 in 2015 and 615 back. This time the figures are 611 and 607.
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and that you've got a particular bluetooth garmin...
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...which won't run on AAs like an etrex so you'll need to keep recharging it. And also your phone.
Nice idea, but can't see the advantage over a scrap of paper with latest leaving times for each control. All i'll have to do is look at that, look at the time, and the difference will tell me how much buffer I've built up. No electrons need be harmed in the making of this film.
But I must have missed something. ???
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...which won't run on AAs like an etrex so you'll need to keep recharging it. And also your phone.
Nice idea, but can't see the advantage over a scrap of paper with latest leaving times for each control. All i'll have to do is look at that, look at the time, and the difference will tell me how much buffer I've built up. No electrons need be harmed in the making of this film.
But I must have missed something. ???
Agree entirely. List of leaving times is simple graphical informations needs accurate inputting of current position and time mid ride. App system increases power drain and reliance on tech.
Additionally set a series of alarms on phone or watch 20 mins before you need to leave each control. Alarms can be set and labelled at your convenience. If the alarm goes off and you have left the control - happy times. If you haven't reached the control - problem.
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I'd like an 80h version please.
As for charging the Garmin on the road, Garmin have finally solved this properly with the Edge 1030 and their external battery.
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Except that app assumes that ACP have applied their rules to the PBP distances - which they didn't seem to in 2015.
They are still their rules, just not BRM. Paris-Brest-Paris has never been either BRM or LRM.
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I'd like an 80h version please.
As for charging the Garmin on the road, Garmin have finally solved this properly with the Edge 1030 and their external battery.
If it helps, for 80h I worked mine out based on the required minimum average speeds being 17 km/h outbound, 13.7 km/h back. That correlated with an ACP 2015 80h control closing schedule I found on a North American randonneuring site. May not be exact but, since I was then estimating my average riding speed on order to calculate latest leaving times, I considered it close enough.
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I should probably look into how one goes about writing IQ apps.
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Will the control closing times be published before the event? Or will the brevet card be the first sight?
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Will the control closing times be published before the event? Or will the brevet card be the first sight?
You'll receive them in a PDF later on during the registration procedure.
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I don't see much mention here of just how badly the evening start puts you on the back foot. I experienced this on my 3rd PBP with an 8pm start - having previously started at 10am both times - that evening start and consequent sleepiness turned PBP into a "never again" experience for me.
Not having done it before, that's one of my primary concerns. I've ridden round the clock before having started fresh im the morning but that strikes me as a very different proposition to having been up all day and thenriding for 30+ hours before sleeping.
To which the solution is don’t get up and mooch around all day burning up energy. Get up,have breakfast then back to bed. Get up for a light lunch and then rest again. It’s not being awake per se , it’s all the other stuff such as chatting with mates etc. Decide what you will wear and take on Saturday, fine tune on Sunday. It takes a bit of discipline and may not work for everyone but it works for me.
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I don't see much mention here of just how badly the evening start puts you on the back foot. I experienced this on my 3rd PBP with an 8pm start - having previously started at 10am both times - that evening start and consequent sleepiness turned PBP into a "never again" experience for me.
Not having done it before, that's one of my primary concerns. I've ridden round the clock before having started fresh im the morning but that strikes me as a very different proposition to having been up all day and thenriding for 30+ hours before sleeping.
To which the solution is don’t get up and mooch around all day burning up energy. Get up,have breakfast then back to bed. Get up for a light lunch and then rest again. It’s not being awake per se , it’s all the other stuff such as chatting with mates etc. Decide what you will wear and take on Saturday, fine tune on Sunday. It takes a bit of discipline and may not work for everyone but it works for me.
The worst way to start is to get utterly rat-arsed the night before, then crawl out of bed at stupid o'clock to start the 84hr with a horrible hang-over. But it's all survivable if you pace yourself, the the hang-over had gone by the afternoon.
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I don't see much mention here of just how badly the evening start puts you on the back foot. I experienced this on my 3rd PBP with an 8pm start - having previously started at 10am both times - that evening start and consequent sleepiness turned PBP into a "never again" experience for me.
Not having done it before, that's one of my primary concerns. I've ridden round the clock before having started fresh im the morning but that strikes me as a very different proposition to having been up all day and thenriding for 30+ hours before sleeping.
To which the solution is don’t get up and mooch around all day burning up energy. Get up,have breakfast then back to bed. Get up for a light lunch and then rest again. It’s not being awake per se , it’s all the other stuff such as chatting with mates etc. Decide what you will wear and take on Saturday, fine tune on Sunday. It takes a bit of discipline and may not work for everyone but it works for me.
I would agree, were it not for hotel check-out times. FWIW, I'm still planning to lie under a tree at the Bergerie during the afternoon, but I know that won't make it the same as a morning start.
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The worst way to start is to get utterly rat-arsed the night before, then crawl out of bed at stupid o'clock to start the 84hr with a horrible hang-over. But it's all survivable if you pace yourself, the the hang-over had gone by the afternoon.
I did consider the 84H for a morning start. But the distance from the nearest hotel with availability to Rambouillet was such that I thought I might have to get up before I went to bed, assuming a need to get to the Bergerie an hour or so before departure time.
I'll have a much better idea what to do in 2023!
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I don't see much mention here of just how badly the evening start puts you on the back foot. I experienced this on my 3rd PBP with an 8pm start - having previously started at 10am both times - that evening start and consequent sleepiness turned PBP into a "never again" experience for me.
Not having done it before, that's one of my primary concerns. I've ridden round the clock before having started fresh im the morning but that strikes me as a very different proposition to having been up all day and thenriding for 30+ hours before sleeping.
To which the solution is don’t get up and mooch around all day burning up energy. Get up,have breakfast then back to bed. Get up for a light lunch and then rest again. It’s not being awake per se , it’s all the other stuff such as chatting with mates etc. Decide what you will wear and take on Saturday, fine tune on Sunday. It takes a bit of discipline and may not work for everyone but it works for me.
I would agree, were it not for hotel check-out times.
Pay for an extra night. What price your comfort?
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Pay for an extra night. What price your comfort?
"Qu'ils mangent de la brioche"?
The one night is already expensive enough. I spent less on sleeping during the whole of Tour Aotearoa last year than two nights' hotel before PBP would cost!
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Meh, I'm happy with my choices.
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Try Acme event 300 Green and Yellow fields - start at midnight Friday night and then rides through into the next day. Good training for day/night/day as usually you've had a big day at work first! I will certainly be checking out of hotel as late (noon) then mooching as much as possible through the afternoon. Realistically won't be sleeping a lot night before anyway as I will be too wound up thinking 'WTF am I doing this for again?'