How to use ViaMichelin for GPS DIY?

[Genosse Brymbo]

I take it that I have to submit a .gpx file to my DIY organizer (Martin Malins) which has controls at the four "corners" of my circular route.  I can then use the file containing that skeleton route as the basis for more detailed planning with MapSource.

My problem is that I can't get a .gpx file of the route out of ViaMichelin.  I've been using its Maps page to get Driviing Directions by positioning the cursor over the map at the control locations and choosing one of Departure/Stage/Destination from the context menu.  When completed there's a Driving Directions box to the left of the Maps window which has Details and Options buttons which allow me to check the distance.  I then chose Share->GPS from the menus on the top right of the Maps page and followed the dialogs to create a Garmin .gpx file.

The .gpx file produced has only one waypoint;  I expected it to have ones for the departure, stages, and destination points at least.  I'm using Firefox 3.5.1.

I'd be grateful for any help from forumites to explain where I've gone wrong.

[phil d]

No, you don't provide a gpx file of your proposed route, just a list of the controls (with location if obscure).  Just the same as any other perm.  The gpx track of your ride will then be compared with your control list.

[vorsprung]

For normal DIY perms you go to viamichelin, put your controls ( or as many as you can fit in the boxes) as "departure", "add a stage", "destination".
Tick the box for Option "cycle", distance in km and click search.

The viamichelin will be confused by at least one of your controls, make it understand where it is you want to go

Once it has made a route, move down the page and there is a list of directions with distances to each stage.  You can use those distances as control distances.

viamichelin does not produce gpx files with many points.  It makes a gpx file with at best one point per stage which I assume it then expects your satnav to make into a workable route

[Genosse Brymbo]

No, you don't provide a gpx file of your proposed route, just a list of the controls (with location if obscure).  Just the same as any other perm.  The gpx track of your ride will then be compared with your control list.

Unfortunately I have no experience of "any other perm" as the one I'm planning is my first.  I intended to minimise the amount of work that both I and the GPS DIY organizer need to do.  How precise does the list of controls need to be?  For example, can I say Birmingham-Chester-Manchester-Shrewsbury-Birmingham because Birmingham and Manchester cover very large areas?

[phil d]

You need to be reasonably precise - as you have suggested, Birmingham or Manchester (and possibly Chester and Shrewsbury) are too large, and you need to be more specific.  Naming a town is OK for a small town (Church Stretton, say) where the limits of the town don't represent a very large area.  Depending on how close your route is to the target distance, you might be able to say "Kings Heath, Birmingham", or a named road junction, or a grid reference (post code better - they come up in Autoroute, which a number of the DIY organisers use).  They will plug your control locations as nearly as they can into whatever mapping software they use to check the minimum distance.

With my local organiser, I can send an Autoroute file showing the control points to make life easier for him (he only told me that after I had tried to describe a remote location accurately on my last GPS DIY ).  I assume from your comments you don't have Autoroute.  You could get a similar result using GoogleMaps set to "walking", which you could then send to the organiser.

In my experience the organisers are very helpful.

[RichForrest]

Some riders who send me entries also add the link you can get from google maps.
This works the same as an autoroute file meaning I can open it and check it straight away without having to type the controls in 

Rich

[Genosse Brymbo]

Phil, thanks for the very helpful reply.  I'd use Autoroute if it could also be used to create a .gpx file to put onto the Garmin device.  I usually use MapSource and OSM mapping for this.  I really don't want to have to transcribe control location details from one piece of software to another or force the organiser to do this.

Some riders who send me entries also add the link you can get from google maps.
This works the same as an autoroute file meaning I can open it and check it straight away without having to type the controls in 

Yes, this is exactly what I want to do - make the organiser happy!  I'll persevere with ViaMichelin for a while and maybe have a go with Google Maps.  What routing method is recommended to calculate the ride distance with Google Maps - Walking or By Car (Avoid Tolls/Avoid Highways)?

[RichForrest]

Just set to walking works, I send Martin mine this way also.

Rich

[Jaded]

I don't normally run Windows, but can, so I use AutoRoute to check that the distance is OK. This is not possible if the route runs next to a motorway. I choose my control locations, then get the grid ref for them from this site.

http://gridreferencefinder.com/

I then paste the Grid References into the on-line entry form.

[phil d]

Just set to walking works, I send Martin mine this way also.

Rich

But be aware that "walking" on GoogleMaps does often route along bridleways (or at least, it seems to in Oxfordshire).  I don't think any of the mapping programs are perfect; there are extensive discussions on this topic on here somewhere.

[Ivo]

With viamichelin You'll have to split your route. It doesn't calculate any cycling distances over 200km. A route with a clear turnaround is very easy, first calculate the outwards part, then the homewards part. For my part of Europe Viamichelin works better as most other systems, it has a better grasp of which highway bridges have a bikepath and which don't.

[phil d]

I don't normally run Windows, but can, so I use AutoRoute to check that the distance is OK. This is not possible if the route runs next to a motorway. I choose my control locations, then get the grid ref for them from this site.

http://gridreferencefinder.com/

I then paste the Grid References into the on-line entry form.

Surely you can set it to "avoid highways", which should route around motorways.

I think (but don't know) that postcodes are better than grid refs, as the latter cannot be input into some mapping sistems (eg AutoRoute, GoogleMaps ....  I don't use ViaMichelin for the very reason that Ivo mentions so can't comment on that one)

[Jaded]

phil, the way I read the rules the "avoid highways" setting conflicts with the "shortest route" requirement in the AUK DIY guidelines, hence my DIY down the M40!

[Ivo]

Especially in the cases where there's a bikepath right next to the motorway.
Just submitted another DIY calculated via Viamichelin. With the extra comment stating in which German Bundesland the intermediate controls are. There are a lot of duplicate village names in Germany . It'll be a 200 around the browncoal pits in west of Cologne.

[RichForrest]

I just use the shortest route, if it uses the motorway that's fair enough as I'll be cycling the longer road route alongside it.

Rich

[frankly frankie]

phil, the way I read the rules the "avoid highways" setting conflicts with the "shortest route" requirement in the AUK DIY guidelines, hence my DIY down the M40!

There's a distinction between "using Google Maps to determine the distance between controls" and "using Google Maps to plan your route". 

In the 1st case, AUK requests you to use 'walking mode' (which I think is all wrong, but them's the rules).
In the 2nd case, Car/Avoid Highways works well.
Two different things.

Sending Grid Refs around seems particularly perverse IMO - unless you happen to know that the recipient is using OS mapping.  Lat/longitudes or postcodes are far more practical (though some rural postcodes span several miles).

[Ivo]

If you use the name of a remote building it might be good to doublecheck if various systems (Garmin, Autoroute, Googlemaps and Viamichelin) use the same location for it. For my octobre DIY I changed the control 'Achelse Kluis' (a monastry) to Kluisdijk, Achel when I found out that Viamichelin and Googlemaps put it in different locations.

[Jaded]

phil, the way I read the rules the "avoid highways" setting conflicts with the "shortest route" requirement in the AUK DIY guidelines, hence my DIY down the M40!

There's a distinction between "using Google Maps to determine the distance between controls" and "using Google Maps to plan your route". 

In the 1st case, AUK requests you to use 'walking mode' (which I think is all wrong, but them's the rules).
In the 2nd case, Car/Avoid Highways works well.
Two different things.

Sending Grid Refs around seems particularly perverse IMO - unless you happen to know that the recipient is using OS mapping.  Lat/longitudes or postcodes are far more practical (though some rural postcodes span several miles).

I used AutoRoute - I think GoogleMaps has only recently been adopted?

As for the Grid Refs, I get them because the AUK form requires them.

[frankly frankie]

I know.  It's idiotic.  The AUK form that is! 

[Genosse Brymbo]

I've been able to do what I originally intended with ViaMichelin, but I've found it to be unreliable and quirky.  You use its Routes page to start the process by entering start and destination (I used two nearby postcodes) and then do the "click on map to modify route" thing to allow you to add stages with the Departure/Stage/Destination context menu.  When you've done this you can use the (not very well positioned on the web page) "Send via email, GPS" options to produce a version of the route encoded in a URL and a .gpx file containing the waypoints:

http://www.viamichelin.co.uk/web/Routes?&&strStartLocid=39MTE2Ukc4N0VYNDFkMncxMGNOVEV1TkRreU1ETT1jTFRFdU1EZzNPVFk9&&strStep1Locid=35MTE1dW9nMDA2MmM5cTE2NjJ5bW1najQxOXhvMTAxNmdOVEV1TlRReE16ZzJOZz09Z0xUQXVPVEExTVRZME5EYz0=&&strStep2Locid=36NG9xYmQ1dW9ieHU2MmNlZDA0NjJ5aWo0aTAxMDEwY05URXVOelUzTnpnPWNMVEV1TURrMk1URT0=&&strStep3Locid=35MTE1dmF4aXE2MmNmMjAwNjJ5bGV2dTRvbnhsMTAyMXdnTlRFdU56a3dNVGMyTXpZPWdMVEF1T1RZeE5qTTNNamM9&&strStep4Locid=35MTE1dW82ZmM2MmNoZzVoNjJ5aGE5ZzQxN3VsMTAyMmdnTlRFdU9UQXhPREk1TlRjPWdMVEV1TVRVME1qVXhOalU9&&strStep5Locid=35MTE1dW9vaTE2MmNpYW15NjJ5OHZyOTQxOGlrMTAyMTNnTlRFdU9UUXhNek00TnpZPWdMVEV1TlRRMk1qazRORFU9&strStep6Coord=-1.15337704*51.57520926&&strDestLocid=39MTE2Ukc4N0xSNDFiZ3cxMGNOVEV1TkRnek9EYz1jTFRFdU1EZzFNalk9&intItineraryType=0&isFavoriseAutoroute=false&isAvoidPeage=undefined&isAvoidVignette=undefined&isAvoidLNR=undefined&isAvoidFrontiers=false&dtmDeparture=18%2F11%2F2011&distance=mi&devise=GBP&carbCost=0&Fp=&strVehicle=0&Fl=0&indemnite=0&caravaneHidden=null&vh=null&empriseH=275&empriseW=315&reinit=true

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><gpx xmlns:xsi='http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance' xsi:schemaLocation='http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1 http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1/gpx.xsd' creator='ViaMichelin' version='1.1' xmlns='http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1'><wpt lon="-1.08796" lat="51.49203"><name></name></wpt><wpt lon="-0.9051650000000109" lat="51.54138599999999"><name>Henley-on-Thames</name></wpt><wpt lon="-1.0961100000000101" lat="51.75778"><name>Waterperry</name></wpt><wpt lon="-0.9616379999999936" lat="51.790176"><name>Chearsley</name></wpt><wpt lon="-1.1542520000000138" lat="51.90182899999999"><name>Bicester</name></wpt><wpt lon="-1.5462990000000048" lat="51.941338"><name>Chipping Norton</name></wpt><wpt lon="-1.08526" lat="51.48387"><name></name></wpt></gpx>

After reading RichForrest's reply which mentioned the Google Maps link I was hoping I could send the URL to the organiser - unfortunately my experience with ViaMichelin persuaded me not to do this.  I'd be relying on ViaMichelin to behave itself in the organiser's browser.

In addition, I've now bought virtual brevet cards and discovered the "idiotic AUK form that is!" (prior art acknowlegment to frankly) which wants grid references, so I've gone the same way as Jaded.  I've been able to get grid references by running MapSource's representation of the waypoints through http://www.movable-type.co.uk/scripts/latlong-gridref.html to convert them, and then checking they are correct with http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/getamap.  This process is very manual and errors can be introduced during transciption - I feel a bit of scripting and XSLT coming on.

I'm surprised that the only "GPS" part of DIY by GPS from the organiser's perspective is checking the recorded track against the controls.  The other aspects appear to be taken from the standard DIY Permanent process.  The available technology could be leveraged more effectively  .  However, that's discussion for another thread and probably another board.

[frankly frankie]

Its a political thing really.  The GPS option is a relatively recent development and not universally liked, so the implementation had to be kept as 'traditional' as possible to enable things to progress at all.

[Phil21]

The AUK form does not require Grid Refs. There is a box for them, but you do not have to fill it in. Just the town & distance will do.

[RichForrest]

Grid ref's are useful if the control is an obscure rd junction or a garden centre that is not on the mapping software used. Towns or villages are usually ok without them.

Rich

[frankly frankie]

But surely in any such situation where a grid ref would be useful, a lat/longitude would be more so?  You can just bang that into Google Maps and Robert is your mother's brother.