Author Topic: Damage to back side of R8000 drive side crank  (Read 3594 times)

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Damage to back side of R8000 drive side crank
« on: 12 July, 2019, 08:13:35 pm »
Took the rings off as the outer has been slipping, while cleaning spotted this, looks like a crack in the backing piece, checking over the construction it looks to me this bit is also responsible for holding the rings.

Bin time or worrying about a trifle?



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rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Damage to back side of R8000 drive side crank
« Reply #1 on: 12 July, 2019, 08:26:29 pm »
That isn't where I'd expect a crack, although they make them in mysterious ways now.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Damage to back side of R8000 drive side crank
« Reply #2 on: 12 July, 2019, 08:38:51 pm »
That isn't where I'd expect a crack, although they make them in mysterious ways now.

Me neither, I had a look at the 6600's I've got for another bike and it appears to be fully forged, but that looks like an insert of some sort.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Damage to back side of R8000 drive side crank
« Reply #3 on: 12 July, 2019, 08:53:56 pm »
The crankarms are hollow and forged and made from two separate pieces bonded together. https://bikerumor.com/2018/05/23/shimano-factory-tour-this-is-why-theyre-masters-of-the-metal/ might be interesting to check out.

That looks suspiciously like a real crack and I'd stop riding it.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Damage to back side of R8000 drive side crank
« Reply #4 on: 12 July, 2019, 09:09:16 pm »
Yes, looking up at the spider you can see a gap between the pieces suggesting it's partially debonded as well as cracked, the more I look the more obvious it is they're F-----.
The bike's round at the shop getting the BB done so will take the cranks round and see what they think in terms of Bin+Replace or Warranty.

No idea when it happened/started, they've done over 14600km since I bought the bike on the Ides of March last year.

Found someone selling a suitable replacement on E-bay at a tolerable price...

yorkie

  • On top of the Galibier
Re: Damage to back side of R8000 drive side crank
« Reply #5 on: 12 July, 2019, 09:16:33 pm »
The last time I saw a crack like that on a Shimano crank was when I was a mechanic at Pocklington on LEL in 2017. A guy came in south-bound with a crank that had separated with a crack just there, leaving the bit attached to the pedals no longer attached to the bit that holds the chain rings. The previous control had rebuilt the crank with copious use of cable ties, we removed the stretched ones and added more - in the absence of a spare chain set it was all we could do! Apparently he finished in time, so it must have held, although the "after" photo had a lot more cable ties than when it left us!  :-D


As LWAB says, get it replaced before it breaks and you get hurt!
Born to ride my bike, forced to work! ;)

British Cycling Regional A Track Commissaire
British Cycling Regional A Circuit Commissaire
Cycling Attendant, York Sport Village Cycle Circuit and Velodrome

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Damage to back side of R8000 drive side crank
« Reply #6 on: 12 July, 2019, 09:48:30 pm »
Aye, as mentioned when I looked again I realized that the crack is only one part of the problem.
I suppose given the date I bought the bike on I should be more wary.


The biggest pain of course is I've just bought a new big ring for it, paying 170 odd quid (or more likely Euro since I have some) for a totally new set would be less painful if it wasn't for the 70 quid I'd just dropped on that.


Re: Damage to back side of R8000 drive side crank
« Reply #7 on: 12 July, 2019, 11:15:36 pm »
aye that is foo**d alright.   Shimano Ultegra is meant to have a 2-year warranty on it, so that may ease things somewhat.

cheers

Re: Damage to back side of R8000 drive side crank
« Reply #8 on: 13 July, 2019, 02:23:35 am »
This failure mode in Ultegra and Dura-Ace cranks from 6800 and 9000 onwards, seemingly arising from the bonding method of construction, is an established problem.  The following threads on the subject make for uncomfortable reading:

Cracked DA 9000 and Ultegra 8000

FAILURE Shimano cranksets

EPIC FAILURE ULTEGRA 6800 11 SPEED CRANK




Re: Damage to back side of R8000 drive side crank
« Reply #9 on: 13 July, 2019, 05:46:42 am »
A sudden crank failure (sheared clean off) and resultant loss of balance put me into the side (mercifully) of a bus a while back so I wouldnt take any chances, bin it and start again.

A

Re: Damage to back side of R8000 drive side crank
« Reply #10 on: 13 July, 2019, 10:47:31 am »
I've not seen one of these failures in the flesh, only in pictures.  But it seems to me that they seem to have both breaks in the aluminium and areas where the adhesive bond has failed.  It isn't clear to me that one always precedes the other, but there are two hypotheses which might explain most of the breakages;

1) that the adhesive bond begins to fail (e.g. at the spider end) and once it gets so fair up the crank the back part of the crank cracks.

2) that the back part of the crank cracks first and this then causes the bond line failures in the adhesive joint.

Quite a few of the failures appear to show corrosion within the failed adhesive bond, which suggests that this may have initiated the failure.

However that the back of the crank cracks isn't any great surprise to me; the back of the crank appears to have sharp edges to it (presumably so that the bond line doesn't show) and even the slightest roughness along these edges will be a perfect crack starter.

There are a few failures where the outer part of the crank cracks near the spider (a traditional weak spot in some cranks) and this combined with the corrosion in the bond line makes me think that this is where the failures most often initiate, probably first in the bond line.

So why do these failures occur at all?  It could be one of three likely suspects

1) marginal design
2) inconsistent manufacturing
3) service conditions

or a combination of the above.  One of the things that rings warning bells with me in relation to the first two is that the joint profile is complex and the failures appear to show that the adhesive layer isn't of perfectly uniform thickness; in fact it probably can't realistically be, simply because the profile of the parts is so convoluted.  The adhesive in such joints is by far the least stiff part of the assembly, which means that it strains more under the applied loads.  Anywhere the bond line is very thin, the strains in the adhesive layer are highest and this is where the bond will fail first, all things being equal.  Adhesive bonding systems vary considerably but there are all kinds of tricks involving fillers of defined partical size and spacers (of matching stiffness) that sit within the bond line which are claimed to help.

FWIW it might seem like a good idea to add bolts, rivets, etc to such joints as 'belt and braces' .  This can indeed give a more benign failure mode (the parts might be made in such a way as when the bond fails the crank flexes obviously before it comes apart) but such designs are actively resisted by adhesive bonding specialists; they argue that the parts see such high stress concentrations at the fasteners that failures are made considerably more likely by the presence of these additional fasteners etc, and that the resultant joint is much weaker than even one with very variable bond line thickness. They are probably right, too, but if the failure mode in a plain adhesive bond might then kill folk maybe it isn't a good trade after all....

If cranks never ever break then they are built too heavy....(I can't think of a racing type crank design where I have never seen a failure) but it is difficult to know if the failure rate in this design is acceptable or not.


cheers

Re: Damage to back side of R8000 drive side crank
« Reply #11 on: 13 July, 2019, 11:41:05 am »
I have to register my profound disappointment at having discovered that Hollowtech cranks are fabricated from two separate pieces of material which are then bonded together.
Having had HT2 cranks fitted to four of my five bikes, I've spent a fair bit of time marvelling as to how on earth they were forged. Perhaps with some sort of fuseable/sacrificial core - but then, how did they get the core material out?
(I found out only today, about the little drain screw behind the sticker on the rear face of the arm)
I was even going to cut a retired one in half, in an investigative kind of way, you understand.
But I've kinda lost interest now.

Re: Damage to back side of R8000 drive side crank
« Reply #12 on: 13 July, 2019, 12:06:06 pm »
for about twenty years shimano 'hollowtech' cranks were made by forging a tube shape which was then squashed flat at the pedal eye end. However in the last few years this new arrangement has come in, which shimano call 'hollowbond'.

I think 5800, R7000, 6700 cranks are the old hollowtech type.

6800, 9000, R8000, 9100, M9100 cranks are Hollowbond type.

cheers

Re: Damage to back side of R8000 drive side crank
« Reply #13 on: 13 July, 2019, 12:22:28 pm »
the failure in this thread

https://www.mobile01.com/topicdetail.php?f=316&t=4849613

has pretty clearly started with the spider end becoming disbonded before the back part of the crank has bent and then broken, unable to withstand the loads applied by itself...?

cheers

Re: Damage to back side of R8000 drive side crank
« Reply #14 on: 13 July, 2019, 12:31:02 pm »
I should be ok then.
My newest one is is 6604 Ultegra.

mcshroom

  • Mushroom
Re: Damage to back side of R8000 drive side crank
« Reply #15 on: 13 July, 2019, 12:45:46 pm »
The last time I saw a crack like that on a Shimano crank was when I was a mechanic at Pocklington on LEL in 2017. A guy came in south-bound with a crank that had separated with a crack just there, leaving the bit attached to the pedals no longer attached to the bit that holds the chain rings. The previous control had rebuilt the crank with copious use of cable ties, we removed the stretched ones and added more - in the absence of a spare chain set it was all we could do! Apparently he finished in time, so it must have held, although the "after" photo had a lot more cable ties than when it left us!  :-D


As LWAB says, get it replaced before it breaks and you get hurt!

Though IIRC that cable tie bodge at Thirsk got the rider (Was he a Royal Marine? Some sort of military anyway) back to London :)
Climbs like a sprinter, sprints like a climber!

yorkie

  • On top of the Galibier
Re: Damage to back side of R8000 drive side crank
« Reply #16 on: 13 July, 2019, 01:53:16 pm »
The last time I saw a crack like that on a Shimano crank was when I was a mechanic at Pocklington on LEL in 2017. A guy came in south-bound with a crank that had separated with a crack just there, leaving the bit attached to the pedals no longer attached to the bit that holds the chain rings. The previous control had rebuilt the crank with copious use of cable ties, we removed the stretched ones and added more - in the absence of a spare chain set it was all we could do! Apparently he finished in time, so it must have held, although the "after" photo had a lot more cable ties than when it left us!  :-D


As LWAB says, get it replaced before it breaks and you get hurt!

Though IIRC that cable tie bodge at Thirsk got the rider (Was he a Royal Marine? Some sort of military anyway) back to London :)
Yup, we just added to/adjusted the cable ties expertly attached by the mechanics at Thirsk. I can't remember whether or not he was military, it was dark and we'd been on the go for days.
I'm pretty sure that he finished in time, he was one of the few riders I remembered well enough to look out for in the list of finishers - the other was the lady who dropped her waterproof in the rear mech just before Moffat and rode the rest of the way on single speed.
Born to ride my bike, forced to work! ;)

British Cycling Regional A Track Commissaire
British Cycling Regional A Circuit Commissaire
Cycling Attendant, York Sport Village Cycle Circuit and Velodrome