Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Audax => Topic started by: citoyen on 04 September, 2017, 11:02:19 am
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Just wondering whether to upgrade my ride from BR to BRM for next year. It was BR by default this year because I registered it too late for ACP, and I'll need to decide before the end of September if I want it to be BRM next year...
It won't make any difference from a PBP qualifying point of view (not next year, obviously, but nor in 2019 either since the ride will be in September). It's not something that I really give much thought to when entering a ride but it mentions in the organisers handbook that some people seek out BRM rides, which intrigues me.
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No option for sometimes.
By and large I am not that worried but the acp shiny medals are appealing so I have been looking for some to complete the set.
Next year is not a PBP year but to allow early registration I would be looking for a 400 or 600 to be BRM. I am in the position now of seriously considering a 200km ride at the other end of the country to get my ACP SR.
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I am in the position now of seriously considering a 200km ride at the other end of the country to get my ACP SR.
You know, I didn't even realise there was a separate award for ACP SRs.
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I think there should always be the opportunity to ride a BRM SR in the UK. All mine are BRM.
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No option for sometimes.
'Sometimes' would be my response too. Usually it makes absolutely no difference, but I would seek out BRM events if completing an ACP SR (now that I know it exists!), or considering PBP.
Given that I'm on the RRtY x2 treadmill, for the vast majority of rides that I do other considerations take precedence ... like finishing at a microbrewery :thumbsup:
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Sometimes for me also, plus a BRM is time limited for the actual distance rather than the BR approach of the max time allowed is based on the actual distance of the event, so if its over distance by a fair bit and a BRM, then that might effect some entrants perhaps?
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ACP sticker on a Brevet card elevates it to a "collectable" status, rather recycling bin status... so it's a BRM for me... but then again, it needs to be at least a 300 or some kind of monster epic 200. For a run of the mill sub 9 hour 200 km it seems a bit OTT in a non PBP year
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Long rides yes, as I'm thinking about the Brevet 10k. Get enough 200 BRMs just in the general run of things.
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I think there should always be the opportunity to ride a BRM SR in the UK. All mine are BRM.
+1
I think it is good to be part of the broader audax family in terms of having BRM events and under ACP regulations. While it is nice to be quaint and jolly UK, audax is a worldwide pastime and BRM reflects that.
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If a Randonee is considerably over distance it can have slower riders struggling for time under BRM rules.
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If a Randonee is considerably over distance it can have slower riders struggling for time under BRM rules.
I've never met anybody who did not make the time in any Audax up to 400 km. For longer ones things can get messy, of course.
I think at the national in June 142 finished in time out of 147, but those 5 had mechanicals beyond repair and had to retire.
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A ride can't be more than 5% over distance (so limit of 210km for a 200) if it is BRM.
Didn't stop there being a BRM 200 that was 220km in the calendar for many years (something Fish Foray from memory).
I would have been out of time on a few rides if they had been BRM instead of BR but then I may not have dawdled so much on those rides.
(Given that some organisers choose the 15kph min average speed for their BR rides then if they're not much over distance then BRM gives you MORE time not less.)
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plus a BRM is time limited for the actual distance
This and the increased validation fees (therefore increased entry fees) are the main reasons against making the ride a BRM.
Although, funnily enough, a BR ride of exactly 200km with a 15kmh minimum speed will have a time limit of 13h20, so there is a small allowance for over-distance built into the set BRM time.
And BRM rides aren't allowed to be more than 5% over anyway, iirc. (ETA: crossposted with Greenbank)
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This and the increased validation fees (therefore increased entry fees) are the main reasons against making the ride a BRM.
Indeed.
I do like brevet cards, but I like them when they are full of stamps... if they are empty (info controls + commercial) I typically bin them. For a card full of stamps, you need people at controls, which typically means you charge more, maybe offer food, given you have people there... it becomes a TLC event, which in turn becomes very popular... hence pound more pound less, making it into a BRM is totally worth it.
So it really is down to what type of event you are running.
I think the minute more or minute less speculation on average speed makes zero difference. Folks who finish 5 minutes before the time limit do it on purpose. I can't think of anyone who can cycle 400 km but struggles to keep a 15 kph average...
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You can have pretty stamps put in the boxes after the event - cafe controls don't have to mean a dull validated brevet card (although I admit it is the norm).
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A ride can't be more than 5% over distance (so limit of 210km for a 200) if it is BRM.
Didn't stop there being a BRM 200 that was 220km in the calendar for many years (something Fish Foray from memory).
I would have been out of time on a few rides if they had been BRM instead of BR but then I may not have dawdled so much on those rides.
(Given that some organisers choose the 15kph min average speed for their BR rides then if they're not much over distance then BRM gives you MORE time not less.)
Ferryside Fish Foray. In the calendar this year as a 225km BR.
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Pardon my ignorance, but what is a BR? I've only ever done BRMs.
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The FAQs sum it up quite nicely:
http://www.aukweb.net/aboutauk/faq/#055
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Pardon my ignorance, but what is a BR? I've only ever done BRMs.
That's cos you're the wrong side of the Channel.
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This and the increased validation fees (therefore increased entry fees) are the main reasons against making the ride a BRM.
You don't have to worry about that - there used to be a big differential, but for some years now and currently, there is NO difference in the fee the organiser pays, between BR and BRM
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This and the increased validation fees (therefore increased entry fees) are the main reasons against making the ride a BRM.
You don't have to worry about that - there used to be a big differential, but for some years now and currently, there is NO difference in the fee the organiser pays, between BR and BRM
That's good to know. I can't remember where I read that - thought it was in the organiser's handbook, but I can't find it in there now, so it must have been some other non-canonical source.
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You can have pretty stamps put in the boxes after the event - cafe controls don't have to mean a dull validated brevet card (although I admit it is the norm).
Just got me hereward the wake card back. And it has been stamped after the event like this, but all the stamps are the same so it doesn't have quite the same effect as a controller stamped card where each controller uses a different stamp.
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You can have pretty stamps put in the boxes after the event - cafe controls don't have to mean a dull validated brevet card (although I admit it is the norm).
Just got me hereward the wake card back. And it has been stamped after the event like this, but all the stamps are the same so it doesn't have quite the same effect as a controller stamped card where each controller uses a different stamp.
Well I'm sorry to hear that, but some organisers do use different stamps on each control.
Maybe point this out to the Hereward organiser? :P
[I have a validated 1500km perm card here - I got a different stamp from every control-town en route. The Decathlon/supermarket ones aren't very exciting, but it's still a nice thing :) This was a bit of a special case - the org requires stamps, no receipts! ]
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You can have pretty stamps put in the boxes after the event - cafe controls don't have to mean a dull validated brevet card (although I admit it is the norm).
Just got me hereward the wake card back. And it has been stamped after the event like this, but all the stamps are the same so it doesn't have quite the same effect as a controller stamped card where each controller uses a different stamp.
Well I'm sorry to hear that, but some organisers do use different stamps on each control.
Maybe point this out to the Hereward organiser? :P
[I have a validated 1500km perm card here - I got a different stamp from every control-town en route. The Decathlon/supermarket ones aren't very exciting, but it's still a nice thing :) This was a bit of a special case - the org requires stamps, no receipts! ]
In the UK? I thought the stamps from shops and cafes was a European thing. Didn't think you could get it here hence using receipts.
I am awaiting my random Luxemburg 1000km brevet back with all the stamps.
To be clear I am not complaining about hereward, it's still much better than other coveted brevets which just used receipts.
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my best brevet card is the Raid Pyrenean... I've got the stamp of David Moncassin's cycle shop... ;D
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I upgraded The Shark to BRM this year, and I'm thinking of reverting to BR for next year, mainly so I can switch to instant validation and not have the hassle of post-processing all the brevet cards, labelling envelopes, etc. I've also had finishers right on the time limit, so feel that on a fairly challenging ride with a fair few first-timers, it's only right to give them as much time as possible to get round.
I agree the ACP stamp does add a touch of class, so I might just go BRM on alternate years (as I will have to for 2019) as a bit of variety...
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Instant validation isnt available at the moment for 300km and longer events so there is no extra hassle for the event org in making it a BRM, and the additional validation costs is not significant in the grand scheme of things. Having said that as an org I'd like the option to offer instant validation for BR 300km events in non-BP years because it saves so much admin. Its understandable that AUK might want a second level of scrutiny for 400} events but would seem reasonable (to me) to allow self validation for 300s which have more in common with a 200, i,e, an extended day ride, then the significantly longer 4-600 events which involve some night time riding and or multiple days awheel.
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You can have pretty stamps put in the boxes after the event - cafe controls don't have to mean a dull validated brevet card (although I admit it is the norm).
Just got me hereward the wake card back. And it has been stamped after the event like this, but all the stamps are the same so it doesn't have quite the same effect as a controller stamped card where each controller uses a different stamp.
Well I'm sorry to hear that, but some organisers do use different stamps on each control.
Maybe point this out to the Hereward organiser? :P
You're all welcome to come round my house with a few beers and stamp cards, address envelopes etc ;)
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The FAQs sum it up quite nicely:
http://www.aukweb.net/aboutauk/faq/#055
Gotcha, ta. They need to knock out the "de" between "Brevets" and "Randonneurs".
That's cos you're the wrong side of the Channel.
Beg to differ. ;D
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You can have pretty stamps put in the boxes after the event - cafe controls don't have to mean a dull validated brevet card (although I admit it is the norm).
Just got me hereward the wake card back. And it has been stamped after the event like this, but all the stamps are the same so it doesn't have quite the same effect as a controller stamped card where each controller uses a different stamp.
Well I'm sorry to hear that, but some organisers do use different stamps on each control.
Maybe point this out to the Hereward organiser? :P
You're all welcome to come round my house with a few beers and stamp cards, address envelopes etc ;)
I've ordered a Mini Pin ;D
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The FAQs sum it up quite nicely:
http://www.aukweb.net/aboutauk/faq/#055
Gotcha, ta. They need to knock out the "de" between "Brevets" and "Randonneurs".
Pourquoi?
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The FAQs sum it up quite nicely:
http://www.aukweb.net/aboutauk/faq/#055
Gotcha, ta. They need to knock out the "de" between "Brevets" and "Randonneurs".
Pourquoi?
Because it's a franglais abomination.
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Sorry - must being thick here.
But looks to me we are talking about three french words here:
Brevets de Randonneurs.
or four:
Brevets de Randonneurs Mondiaux
where is the franglais?
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The FAQs sum it up quite nicely:
http://www.aukweb.net/aboutauk/faq/#055
Gotcha, ta. They need to knock out the "de" between "Brevets" and "Randonneurs".
Pourquoi?
Because it's a franglais abomination.
Well, I'm confused. (http://www.audax-club-parisien.com/FR/311.html)
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Well, I'm confused. (http://www.audax-club-parisien.com/FR/311.html)
They appear to be fairly confused themselves.
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I hoped I might resolve that one by reference to the Convention de Partenariat (http://www.aukweb.net/_resources/files/official/ACP_Convention_de_partenariat_UK_2015.pdf) but although the body of that agreement uses the 'de', the version sans appears in Annex 4 :facepalm:
BTW - I'll be happy to take on the correction of the FAQ text* should anyone come up with a definitive answer which requires it.
* or any other part of aukweb.net which is not auto-generated
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BTW - I'll be happy to take on the correction of the FAQ text* should anyone come up with a definitive answer which requires it.
I suspect there is no definitive answer.
Tbh, abomination is putting it a bit strongly - I've never liked that 'de', always felt it was a bit superfluous, but I've never felt it was worth commenting on until T42 raised it.
Just ignore me.
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You can have pretty stamps put in the boxes after the event - cafe controls don't have to mean a dull validated brevet card (although I admit it is the norm).
Just got me hereward the wake card back. And it has been stamped after the event like this, but all the stamps are the same so it doesn't have quite the same effect as a controller stamped card where each controller uses a different stamp.
Well I'm sorry to hear that, but some organisers do use different stamps on each control.
Maybe point this out to the Hereward organiser? :P
You're all welcome to come round my house with a few beers and stamp cards, address envelopes etc ;)
I dug out my card from the Flatlands '15 the other day in preparation for this weekend and noticed that, whilst all the stamps were added at the arrivee, different stamps had been used for the last couple. This was a nice touch that I didn't notice at the time.
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I suspect there is no definitive answer.
Tbh, abomination is putting it a bit strongly - I've never liked that 'de', always felt it was a bit superfluous, but I've never felt it was worth commenting on until T42 raised it.
Just ignore me.
Jamming two nouns up together like that without the possessive pronoun feels somehow wrong to me. But then I learned my French back in the 1960s and havn't lived there since the early 90s so T42, who lives in country today, maybe has a better feel for modern usage?
But on a related topic....
the poll option:
No, prefer to avoid BRM rides cos it takes too long to get the card validated
doesn't really hold up to scrutiny.
ACP have completely automated the process, the cards do not have to go to Paris, the stickers are printed here in the UK, and any delays are down to us here in the UK (exactly like they would be for a BR that does not have the so-called 'instant-validation') either with the organiser or with the validation team (who, like all volunteers, have been known to ride their bikes / have lives / go on holiday)
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ACP have completely automated the process, the cards do not have to go to Paris, the stickers are printed here in the UK
You're ruining the romance, dammit! I had this mental image of the cards being posted off to some French bureaucrat in a dusty office in Paris who sits there stroking his impressive moustache and pondering each card individually, deciding whether or not to stamp it.
the validation team (who, like all volunteers, have been known to ride their bikes / have lives / go on holiday)
Outrageous dereliction of duty. ;)
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I hoped I might resolve that one by reference to the Convention de Partenariat (http://www.aukweb.net/_resources/files/official/ACP_Convention_de_partenariat_UK_2015.pdf) but although the body of that agreement uses the 'de', the version sans appears in Annex 4 :facepalm:
BTW - I'll be happy to take on the correction of the FAQ text* should anyone come up with a definitive answer which requires it.
* or any other part of aukweb.net which is not auto-generated
That's quite amusing. As I read it, Brevet is a noun and Randonneurs Mondiaux an adjectival phrase so the de is inappropriate. You could just argue, though, that the brevets were created/administered by the Randonneurs Mondiaux, in which case they would be Brevets des Randonneurs Mondiaux; or you could say that doing one of these brevets made you into a Randonneur Mondial, in which case they would be Brevets de Randonneur Mondial.
The ACP's site (and every French publication I've seen on the topic) calls them Brevets Randonneurs Mondiaux, i.e. worldwide "randonneuring" brevets, so for me that's what they are.
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The ACP's site (and every French publication I've seen on the topic) calls them Brevets Randonneurs Mondiaux, i.e. worldwide "randonneuring" brevets so for me that's what they are.
The ACP page I linked earlier uses both forms.
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Oh well. Some write better French than others, it would seem.
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As an organiser running a 400, that wants to go to bed at some point BRM is better
400/15 = 26h40 but with BRM you have 27h
HOWEVER
In the real world 400km events are always a bit more. If they are 406km or more then the BR time is over 27h, so BRM is shorter
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Because it's a franglais abomination.
Keep it, keep it! </brexit> ;)
Shouldn't it be 'des' anyway? Refer it to the Academie Francaise (omitted accent deliberate, see 'franglais abominations')
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Oh well. Some write better French than others, it would seem.
Wonder if this page (http://www.audax-club-parisien.com/FR/321%20-%20Accueil%20des%20BRM%20Monde.html) had multiple authors ? :)
As I read it, Brevet is a noun and Randonneurs Mondiaux an adjectival phrase so the de is inappropriate. You could just argue, though, that the brevets were created/administered by the Randonneurs Mondiaux, in which case they would be Brevets des Randonneurs Mondiaux; or you could say that doing one of these brevets made you into a Randonneur Mondial, in which case they would be Brevets de Randonneur Mondial.
My understanding was always that doing one of these Brevets made you into a Randonneur(full stop)... in which case the Brevets de Randonneur holds up. The international nature of the qualification would make it Brevets Mondiaux de Randonneur.
There comes a point at which it's better to just get out & ride.... ;D
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You're ruining the romance, dammit! I had this mental image of the cards being posted off to some French bureaucrat in a dusty office in Paris who sits there stroking his impressive moustache and pondering each card individually, deciding whether or not to stamp it.
You're thinking of I-Spy books https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-Spy_(Michelin) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-Spy_(Michelin))
As children spotted the objects listed, they recorded the event in the book, and gained points, varying according to how unusual the sight. Once the book was complete, it could be sent to Charles Warrell, (known as Big Chief I-SPY) for a feather and order of merit.
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You're ruining the romance, dammit! I had this mental image of the cards being posted off to some French bureaucrat in a dusty office in Paris who sits there stroking his impressive moustache and pondering each card individually, deciding whether or not to stamp it.
You're thinking of I-Spy books https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-Spy_(Michelin) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-Spy_(Michelin))
As children spotted the objects listed, they recorded the event in the book, and gained points, varying according to how unusual the sight. Once the book was complete, it could be sent to Charles Warrell, (known as Big Chief I-SPY) for a feather and order of merit.
Funny you should mention those - I'd completely forgotten about them until they came up in discussion on the radio the other day.
All my I-Spy books are recorded as DNF. I was never really imbued with the spirit of recording sightings of everyday objects.
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The choice of ride comes first. Only really checked I have a full set of BRM rides for an SR during PBP year in 2015. Some rides I've done were BRM in 2015 but not before or since. Some organisers also pull their rides forward in PBP years for when you need to have done your 200, 300 etc.
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You're ruining the romance, dammit! I had this mental image of the cards being posted off to some French bureaucrat in a dusty office in Paris who sits there stroking his impressive moustache and pondering each card individually, deciding whether or not to stamp it.
You're thinking of I-Spy books https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-Spy_(Michelin) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-Spy_(Michelin))
As children spotted the objects listed, they recorded the event in the book, and gained points, varying according to how unusual the sight. Once the book was complete, it could be sent to Charles Warrell, (known as Big Chief I-SPY) for a feather and order of merit.
Some folk run self-styled BRMs like that.
In 2007 a chum did one out of somewhere in Germany, crossing into France and back. Instead of stamps they had questions related to what you should see at each control. The clue for Lembach, just up the road from here, was "what land can you see?" The poor bloke spent half an hour searching then gave up and set out for the next control. About 10k south of Lembach he came to a panel advertising an amusement park called Didiland. He was so disgusted he jacked it in and rode home. I don't think he's had a shot at PBP since.
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Something like that happened in the UK when some organiser decided that info questions should be tests of observational skill.
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How do you know in hindsight whether a ride was BR or BRM? In advance it is shown in the calendar, but how do you tell when looking at the past results in AUKWEB?
The only difference between events that I can see is the badge at the top of the certificate view, where some have a Les Randonneurs Europeens badge, and others have a Randonneur badge. Is this significant?
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The only difference between events that I can see is the badge at the top of the certificate view, where some have a Les Randonneurs Europeens badge, and others have a Randonneur badge. Is this significant?
I've just checked my results and some events that I know for a fact were BRM have the UK badge, not the European badge, so I suspect that is a red herring.
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I would suggest you are informed in advance because of the subtle differences in overall time limits, you may feel you need to know about that before you ride - but retrospectively BR and BRM are regarded as 'equal'. The impression you might get from some posters here, that one is somehow better than the other, is completely false.
However to answer the question, in your personal results list, events that are BRM will have a number in the first column (headed 'ACP Brevet'). Non-BRM, or sometimes very recent BRM, that column will be blank. Among non-provisional results, that is.
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ACP have completely automated the process, the cards do not have to go to Paris, the stickers are printed here in the UK
You're ruining the romance, dammit! I had this mental image of the cards being posted off to some French bureaucrat in a dusty office in Paris who sits there stroking his impressive moustache and pondering each card individually, deciding whether or not to stamp it.
Yes, that is how it happens. I saw a Wes Anderson film about it. Google suggests it may be this one:
(http://www.celluloidportraits.com/img/Films/imgFILM30/25_6422_L.jpg)
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I would suggest you are informed in advance because of the subtle differences in overall time limits, you may feel you need to know about that before you ride - but retrospectively BR and BRM are regarded as 'equal'. The impression you might get from some posters here, that one is somehow better than the other, is completely false.
However to answer the question, in your personal results list, events that are BRM will have a number in the first column (headed 'ACP Brevet'). Non-BRM, or sometimes very recent BRM, that column will be blank. Among non-provisional results, that is.
Thanks Frankie. Armed with that information, I now see that I have completed an ACP SR this year. Further reading on what benefits accrue from riding the BRM events suggest that more rides are needed for the 2 notable targets; Randonneur 5000 and Randonneur 10000. Both require 1000 km events to be ridden (plus others such as PBP), but seemingly at any time within the 4 or 6 year qualifying period, so not necessarily in the same year.
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ACP numbers seem to show only from 2010.
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I think if you're looking to attain some ACP-specific award, you will need ACP brevet numbers to back up your claim. Before 2010, look to your old brevet cards. Ultimately, it's not AUK's responsibility to keep track of these ACP numbers (in fact arguably AUK are breaching ACP's copyright by publishing them at all).
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I can't think of any ACP award with a qualifying period longer than six years, so AUK keeping a member's ACP records for longer than that is a bonus.
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Surely it costs more in time to remove them from the DB than it costs to store them alongside the other data, but then maybe it's a choice not to display them from more than 6 years ago to avoid people trying to use those numbers in claims for specific awards where they should not be used.
I'd also be very surprised if ACP decided to request that the numbers be removed from the AUK site due to copyright infringement. If this really is keeping someone awake at night maybe they should contact ACP about it. I'd be surprised if they didn't fall under some exclusion or fair use limitation anyway.
Maybe we can dispel another myth. I thought the reason that we (AUK) didn't use BRM all the time was that ACP wasn't interested in the extra workload of validating all those rides in non-PBP (and/or non-pre-PBP) years. I guess if the process has been made much more efficient for ACP then they're happier to process BRM events all the time.
It would certainly be one way of consolidating the various possible minimum average speeds if every ride 200-1200km was made BRM. (Although, as previously pointed out, there are some long standing events which are more than 5% over distance and it would be a shame to have to lose or butcher to fit.)
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Maybe we can dispel another myth. I thought the reason that we (AUK) didn't use BRM all the time was that ACP wasn't interested in the extra workload of validating all those rides in non-PBP (and/or non-pre-PBP) years. I guess if the process has been made much more efficient for ACP then they're happier to process BRM events all the time.
Quite correct, and ... possibly.
AUK supplying ACP brevet numbers online for reference was a service first introduced in 2007 as an aid to registering late qualifiers for PBP entry purposes. This was repeated for 2011 but by then an infrastructure was developed to allow AUK to import ACP's results data (and vice versa, but that had been in place for several years longer). That infrastructure still exists, although the need for it (facilitating AUK/PBP entry) has largely gone. Really, AUK shouldn't be publishing ACP's data, but hopefully its no big deal.
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Randonneurs USA and Audax Oz have the majority of their 200+km calendar brevets as BRM with a minority of events locally homologated. That gives enough freedom to run a brevet at comparatively short notice and to appropriately accommodate over-distance routes.
My preference would be to do something similar here with the longer brevets (400+km) defaulting to BRM unless there is a worthwhile reason to locally validate.
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You seem to be suggesting that BRM has some extra value. There is a weight of history behind BRM but that's about it - to say it's 'better' is a bit like saying someone with a hereditary title is better than someone without.
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You seem to be suggesting that BRM has some extra value. There is a weight of history behind BRM but that's about it - to say it's 'better' is a bit like saying someone with a hereditary title is better than someone without.
For those wanting to enter PBP or looking to achieve the ACP awards it does. Otherwise no.
The ACP medals are more aesthetically pleasing than the audax UK ONES.
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Really, AUK shouldn't be publishing ACP's data, but hopefully its no big deal.
Rightly or wrongly, a significant number of other nations publish the data.
And when they do so, it is of considerable assistance to the Recorder adding overseas BRMs to their AUK member's records.
http://www.aukweb.net/aboutauk/faq/#32
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Apart from the foreign awards aspect, several foreign organisers require qualifiers for long brevets. Some of them only accept BRMs and the others need some convincing to accept BRs. Both factors mean that BRMs are generally of more value to me.
AUK's approach of time limits based on actual distance/ min. speed is much more sensible than fixed time limits for nominal distances.
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A BR can be a permanent or a DIY. A BRM is an observed event.
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This and the increased validation fees (therefore increased entry fees) are the main reasons against making the ride a BRM.
Although, funnily enough, a BR ride of exactly 200km with a 15kmh minimum speed will have a time limit of 13h20, so there is a small allowance for over-distance built into the set BRM time.
And BRM rides aren't allowed to be more than 5% over anyway, iirc. (ETA: crossposted with Greenbank)
Quite. This is the reason I have never opted from BRM. I cannot be done with the faff.
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A BR can be a permanent or a DIY. A BRM is an observed event.
So now we're devaluing permanents and DIYs? Personally I might agree (especially in the case of DIYs) but AUK appears to regard all such rides that rely on proofs of passage (and that aren't Populaires) as equal.
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With an RRA officiated LEJOG in progress, it's as well to point out the hierarchy of observation entailed in validated events.
I remember a running of Tom Hanley's 'Over the Edge', where someone couldn't see the point of going over the big climb the event was named after. Tom had the secret control there. The short-cutters were mortified at the Drumlanrig control, when they found out that their 400 PBP qualifier wouldn't be validated. I do like a stickler.
Heather broke her mech hanger in 2003 near Dumfries. I had to finish sharpish, drive back to Dumfries, give Heather my bike at the Dumfries control, and drive back to Beattock to await Heather.
Heather arrived with a minute to spare. Tom was suspicious that we'd cheated, and it was sent upstairs for scrutiny. Heather was a bit miffed, and went on to do three 600s to remove suspicion. That's how she inadvertently became a Hyper Randonneur (BRM), and me too. She also has a spare mech hanger attached to her bike to this day.
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A BR can be a permanent or a DIY. A BRM is an observed event.
So now we're devaluing permanents and DIYs? Personally I might agree (especially in the case of DIYs) but AUK appears to regard all such rides that rely on proofs of passage (and that aren't Populaires) as equal.
Is there any reason why they should not be?
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A BR can be a permanent or a DIY. A BRM is an observed event.
So now we're devaluing permanents and DIYs? Personally I might agree (especially in the case of DIYs) but AUK appears to regard all such rides that rely on proofs of passage (and that aren't Populaires) as equal.
Is there any reason why they should not be?
I'm certainly glad they are, they're responsible for 6 out of my 11 SRs. The other 5 are in PBP seasons, so I know they're all kosher. I'd need to check the others.
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Heather broke her mech hanger in 2003 near Dumfries. I had to finish sharpish, drive back to Dumfries, give Heather my bike at the Dumfries control, and drive back to Beattock to await Heather.
I certainly wouldn't use the verb "cheating", but I am equally sure it is not within the Audax spirit... I am pretty sure at LEL this would mean disqualification
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That is only because of a bullshit rule. Every other country takes the approach that you can have whatever personal support you like at controls but only organiser-provided support between controls. Until quite recently, AUK did the same and Heather's brevet was under the old rules. Apparently AUK recently had to change its rules with regards to personal support, purely to limit personal support at LEL controls. A LEL-specific rule regarding personal support would have been better.
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Heather broke her mech hanger in 2003 near Dumfries. I had to finish sharpish, drive back to Dumfries, give Heather my bike at the Dumfries control, and drive back to Beattock to await Heather.
I certainly wouldn't use the verb "cheating", but I am equally sure it is not within the Audax spirit... I am pretty sure at LEL this would mean disqualification
Quite the opposite actually. I'm surprised that LittleWheelsand big doesn't remember our kip by the side of the road next to the A14 near Kimbolton in 2005. I'd broken a titanium bottom bracket, that had been weakened in a crash at PBP 2003, but had passed inspection.
I was all for one-legging it to St Neots to get a replacement, but I phoned Heather, who phoned Simon Doughty, and he came down from Thorne, got a BB in Bourne, and fitted it while we continued to lounge around and get bitten by insects.
(http://www.aukweb.net/pix/lqj6ky4n_tue_aug__2_19_59_24_2005.jpg)
The incident, and the lead up to it, was recorded, and is from 8.00 mins in this video. Simon was incapacitated by a drunk driver a while later, so it's a bit poignant in a way. A thoroughly nice bloke.
https://vimeo.com/205099954
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I well remember pushing ESL up a number of hills. It was fun while it lasted but my arm was getting a bit sore by the time we stopped. I wasn't so keen on doing the same thing all the way to St Neots.
The problem is that the current AUK regs regarding personal support are:
9.9.2 Riders must be self-sufficient. Personal support is only permitted at the discretion of the organiser, with the agreement of AUK.
Organisers may provide support such as food and rest facilities at controls and route guidance. Riders remain responsible for their own welfare and may stop for food and rest at any place.
SNIP
9.9.4 Where riders’ personal support is permitted, the rider and their helpers agree:
(a) Personal support is only allowed at controls
(b) Not to drive a motor vehicle on a section of route in use by riders, except within 1km of a control or in the case of an accident or emergency.
(c) The rider will be held responsible for the behaviour of their personal helpers.
It would have been better for the emphasised sections to have been LEL-specific, rather than general.
The 'self-sufficient' aspect refers to between controls. Support can be provided by the organiser between controls, if they wish, as Simon did for ESL.
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I was keen to get to the A14 junction, so that Simon wouldn't have to drive on the route, and wouldn't need to navigate.
I'd encourage that kind of support, rather than at controls, as it encourages supporters to keep to the trunk roads. A specified course for support vehicles is provided at PBP, and it generates a certain amount of camaraderie.
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Love the blue Ambrosio Excellence rim!
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ESL has always been stylish. Just check out that pair of Ergo LH and STI RH levers.
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ESL has always been stylish. Just check out that pair of Ergo LH and STI RH levers.
Makes total sense... Ergos ratchet front is great, whereas Shimano escape system sucks... the rear is pretty much the same across the brands, so easier to go for Shimano which costs less to maintain
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That is only because of a bullshit rule. Every other country takes the approach that you can have whatever personal support you like at controls but only organiser-provided support between controls. Until quite recently, AUK did the same and Heather's brevet was under the old rules. Apparently AUK recently had to change its rules with regards to personal support, purely to limit personal support at LEL controls. A LEL-specific rule regarding personal support would have been better.
Not sure I understand the concept of organiser-provided support between controls. How is that a thing?
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Think of the motos at PBP, for one. Some overseas organisers of long and remote brevets patrol the route in motor vehicles, which can be very helpful where it is difficult to carry enough water.
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Love the blue Ambrosio Excellence rim!
It's actually a Mavic Cosmos. I'd had a pair of wheels made up by Paul Hewitt for PBP 2003, Black Ambrosio rims on XT hubs, but they got totalled in a collision with a scooter at the top of the climb out of Fougeres, on the return.
There was a reluctance to get the Police involved, so it was sorted out by the controller at Fougeres, who came up after the control closure.
I was driven down to Fougeres to buy the last pair of wheels in the shop. I liked the Cosmos wheels, but the rear was ultimately too fragile.
I started LEL 2005 on the pair, but changed to the spare 36 spoke with a tandem rim, that I had waiting at Thorne. That was one advantage of a Thorne start. Here's a picture of me at Coxwold, taken by Frankly Frankie, with the Cosmos rear still intact.
(http://www.aukweb.net/pix/15bcd1dq_sun_jul_24_23_44_20_2005.jpg)
Ultimately, a lot more stories seem to emerge from BRMs. There's usually more volunteer input, and I've always relied on the kindness of strangers.
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Think of the motos at PBP, for one. Some overseas organisers of long and remote brevets patrol the route in motor vehicles, which can be very helpful where it is difficult to carry enough water.
First I've heard of motos at PBP. What do they do? But I increasingly get the impression that PBP and LEL are organized in rather different ways to other audaxes (in the UK at least).
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The problem is that the current AUK regs regarding personal support are:
....
More appropriate here (http://forum.audax.uk/index.php?topic=1350.msg11380#msg11380)?
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Think of the motos at PBP, for one. Some overseas organisers of long and remote brevets patrol the route in motor vehicles, which can be very helpful where it is difficult to carry enough water.
First I've heard of motos at PBP. What do they do? But I increasingly get the impression that PBP and LEL are organized in rather different ways to other audaxes (in the UK at least).
I film from mine, but the main work is done by ANEC, 'Association Normande d'Escorte Cycliste'. They lead out the starts, patrol the route, and ensure safety at major road crossings. Here's a montage and some video one of them did in 2011. Good lads. They were amazed that my 1994 K75 still had functioning ABS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lf-9o5rhGU0
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One thing that has not been mentioned with regard to BRMs is that they are listed in ACP's international calendar, which would be an advantage for an organiser who wants to attract riders from abroad. Not that a bog-standard 200 is likely to be a major draw outside the immediate area, but you never know!
Anyway, to go back to the original question, what are the pros and cons for an organiser of listing an event as a BRM? As far as I can see, they are
Pro
- Allows riders to use them as qualifiers for international events (not only PBP).
- Count towards ACP SR and other awards.
- Sense of being part of the wider randonneuring community (the ACP stamp in the brevet, listing in the ACP calendar).
Con
- No instant validation option.
- Over-distance restriction.
Two of the Pro reasons are practical, one is purely subjective and has no practical benefit. I don't think anyone believes a BRM is in any meaningful sense better than a BR, but all are valid reasons for some riders to prefer BRM events.
As we've ascertained, the set time limit for BRMs is neither a pro nor a con, since in many cases it allows the rider more time to complete the distance than a BR.
The reason for the question in the first place was because I'd read something about the pros and cons of BR vs BRM, which mentioned that some riders 'seek out' BRMs. I can't for the life of me remember where I read this, though - I thought it was in the organisers handbook, along with the bit about the increased validation fees, but I can no longer find the relevant passage. Maybe it was an out-of-date version of the handbook I was looking at. Obviously the bit about increased validation fees is no longer true anyway.
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Let's explore the repeated assertion that BRMs are REQUIRED (as in, no other form of qualification would be accepted) as qualifiers for events.
Can you give examples other than PBP (for which ACP stipulate a current year ACP/BRM SR)?
Beyond that, to what extent do ACP/LRM events have any form of pre-qualification?
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Two of the Pro reasons are practical,
Is there a mechanism for claiming ACP SR and other awards?
Other, that is, than convoluted correspondence possibly involving intermediaries (which is OK once or twice but wouldn't scale up well).
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Think of the motos at PBP, for one. Some overseas organisers of long and remote brevets patrol the route in motor vehicles, which can be very helpful where it is difficult to carry enough water.
First I've heard of motos at PBP. What do they do? But I increasingly get the impression that PBP and LEL are organized in rather different ways to other audaxes (in the UK at least).
PBP also has support at the roadside from stalls providing crepes, cafes staying open all night.
None of this is /personal/ support which is not permitted.
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You are correct that BRM listing may attract foreigners, even to shorter BRMs. Several times during work or recreational trips in the last few years, I've squeezed in a BRM of 200 to 400km on a borrowed or rented bike. It can be quite difficult to find and translate the relevant details of a Thai brevet on their own website but all the important information is in the ACP listing.
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Let's explore the repeated assertion that BRMs are REQUIRED (as in, no other form of qualification would be accepted) as qualifiers for events.
Can you give examples other than PBP (for which ACP stipulate a current year ACP/BRM SR)?
Beyond that, to what extent do ACP/LRM events have any form of pre-qualification?
I'm taking LWaB's word for that, assuming that as someone who does a lot of international events he knows what he's talking about.
Is there a mechanism for claiming ACP SR and other awards?
No idea, I've never been interested in trying to claim any awards - neither from ACP nor from AUK. Again, I'm taking it on trust.
If neither of those supposed reasons stand up to scrutiny, then I begin to wonder why AUK even offers BRMs outside PBP years.
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Think of the motos at PBP, for one. Some overseas organisers of long and remote brevets patrol the route in motor vehicles, which can be very helpful where it is difficult to carry enough water.
First I've heard of motos at PBP. What do they do? But I increasingly get the impression that PBP and LEL are organized in rather different ways to other audaxes (in the UK at least).
PBP also has support at the roadside from stalls providing crepes, cafes staying open all night.
;D :thumbsup:
None of this is /personal/ support which is not permitted.
Personal support is a whole other kettle of fishy quavers. I was curious about the idea of organiser support between controls. LWaB said:
Every other country takes the approach that you can have whatever personal support you like at controls but only organiser-provided support between controls.
Which was in response to ESL's account of driving to a bike shop to get a part for a stranded rider – which I guess counts as personal support. In that context, mention of organiser-provided support seems to raise the possibility of phoning the organiser to do the same. I've no idea what the rules say but as far as I can see that's not in The Spirit of Audax and I can only imagine the response would be either "There's a bike shop in Z-ville, here's the number of a taxi firm" or "..."
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Is there a mechanism for claiming ACP SR and other awards?
Other, that is, than convoluted correspondence possibly involving intermediaries (which is OK once or twice but wouldn't scale up well).
There's no online claiming, and like most things ACP the initial point of contact is ACP Rep (also referred to in the contact us page (http://www.aukweb.net/contactus/) as the International Correspondent.
Just because he's from West Yorkshire doesn't mean the correspondence has to be convoluted ;D
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Simon wouldn't have come for just anybody. I was tasked with recording the event, and I produced a DVD. The whole film is now free to watch on Vimeo, in four parts. It cascades from paid for DVD, to paid online to free at some point. That's how I finance the equipment.
Simon was coming South anyway, and the A14 is the route to St Neots, so it was just a matter of diverting. I'd have carried on to St Neots otherwise.
Some might not know of Simon Doughty. he wrote the definitive book on long distance cycling, having won the Mersey Roads 24 and doing PBP. When it was obvious that Bernard Mawson wouldn't be doing LEL 2009, Simon did a lot of the work on LEL 2005. He's down as one of the sponsors on the shirt.
Not long after LEL 2005 he was run over by a drunk driver, as he went to work at Manchester Velodrome. Since then I've sent him a copy of the various LEL and PBP films, as he likes to see how things are developing. That's one of the reasons that I include some of the detail of organising.
The world of the 24 Hour/Audax rider is a bit different from the Cyclotourist/Audax rider. On the 24, you can pass the rider ever 10 miles in a car, and stand at the side of the road, passing up food and bottles. But there's prestige and a small amount of money at stake in the 24, not so much on an Audax.
24 Hour TTs are BRs.
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24 Hour TTs are BRs.
???
24 hour TTs are NOT BRs
They are not AUK events, but AUK members riding them can claim AUK points by virtue of Appx 13.1.3, but that doesn't make them BRs (nor are they BPs or BRMs)
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If it quacks like a duck, then it is a duck as far as I'm concerned, so if it's possible to get an AUK SR with a ride, but not ACP awards, then it's a BR to me.
I do notice that there's a single point allocation across all the distances in the 24 now. So it looks like the spoilsports have been hobbling it.
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Randonneur is someone who wanders, ideally quite far. The Italian Audax motto is something along the lines of "neither slow nor fast, but always far"... one would argue how a 24 hour TT which loops endless times around a 10-20 miles ring can be considered a "brevet". There is no navigation involved, there are no control points, there is no self sufficiency as most people show up with camper vans and troops of helpers.
Fair enough for the points, you pedal you get points, you can get points for a DIY, why not for a TT, but a "brevet" is a different thing altogether... I am not even sure DIY should be considered "brevets"... when in most cases they are well rehearsed loops around X's personal address
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Navigation is not an intrinsic part of randonneuring. Nor is self-sufficiency really (despite what the regulations say). Think of the blind tandem stoker, is he not a randonneur?
I do notice that there's a single point allocation across all the distances in the 24 now. So it looks like the spoilsports have been hobbling it.
Damon I think that's just a display issue - I'm fairly sure that the appropriate points have been allocated to each individual.
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Navigation is not an intrinsic part of randonneuring. Think of the blind tandem stoker, is he not a randonneur?
I do notice that there's a single point allocation across all the distances in the 24 now. So it looks like the spoilsports have been hobbling it.
Damon I think that's just a display issue - I'm fairly sure that the appropriate points have been allocated to each individual.
...but looping for 24 hours trying to outdo each other is not in the randonneur spirit
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Let's explore the repeated assertion that BRMs are REQUIRED (as in, no other form of qualification would be accepted) as qualifiers for events.
Can you give examples other than PBP (for which ACP stipulate a current year ACP/BRM SR)?
As a single example, the Rocky Mountain 1200 (http://www.randonneurs.bc.ca) specifies an ACP SR, or ACP 1000km, or LRM 1200+km.
Most USA 1200km rides, AFAICT, (eg the Colorado High Country 1200 (http://www.rmccrides.com/brevet-chc-main.htm)) are slightly more open in that they'll allow ACP brevets or RUSA events to be used - but good luck with finding an RUSA brevet over here ...
(Fairly obviously, what's in black and white on the entry page isn't necessarily what the organisers will enforce, and I'd probably be a bit surprised if a polite email didn't lead to them accepting appropriate locally homologated rides on a case by case basis, but I certainly wouldn't book flights until I'd been told that they would ...)
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Obviously the 24 stands out from the other events in many ways, especially as it is the only 'Allure Libre' event on the calendar. From that standpoint alone, it deserves to be a BRM.
It would be possible to have other 'Allure Libre' timed events. If the upper and lower limits are there to facilitate controls, then a timed event doesn't need upper and lower limits, as we know how long the helpers are there for.
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Navigation is not an intrinsic part of randonneuring. Think of the blind tandem stoker, is he not a randonneur?
I do notice that there's a single point allocation across all the distances in the 24 now. So it looks like the spoilsports have been hobbling it.
Damon I think that's just a display issue - I'm fairly sure that the appropriate points have been allocated to each individual.
...but looping for 24 hours trying to outdo each other is not in the randonneur spirit
I don't think anybody has claimed they are. That's not the point.
What has been said about a zillion times is that the one occasionally two 24 events in the UK are recognised by AUK for historical reasons, i.e., there was a time before AUK when such provided a route to ride PBP, and AUK looks to return the favour by supporting these events which have been through some very lean years by recognising them for AUK awards.
The reality is that by the time they come around participating AUKs will generally already have completed an SR series, so any inference that they are some sort of soft option/short cut to AUK glory is simply unfounded.
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... I am not even sure DIY should be considered "brevets"... when in most cases they are well rehearsed loops around X's personal address
Some are, most aren't, but where's your point?
Are you saying riders should be barred from taking part in events more than , say, 3 times because after that it's no longer 'audacious'?
I must have ridden the Poor Student 7 - 8 times and I'm a beginner compared to some. Fact is over time its inevitable audacious outings turn into old friends. What then?
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I do notice that there's a single point allocation across all the distances in the 24 now. So it looks like the spoilsports have been hobbling it.
Not so - we used to create a sequence of dummy events at different distances to kludge the points into the system.
We now have a single 'event' (with a nominal points value), but as FF suggests the actual points awarded to each rider are adjusted to represent the distance they cover.
It's still a bit of a kludge - just slightly less messy, and easier to manage; but no one is hobbling it.
Obviously the 24 stands out from the other events in many ways, especially as it is the only 'Allure Libre' event on the calendar. From that standpoint alone, it deserves to be a BRM.
I'm sorry but this is nonsense. All AUK events are 'Allure Libre' **.
The only 'audax' events which are not 'Allure Libre' are those run under the rules of the UAF - a style where everyone is kept together and at a fixed pace by a road captain, sometimes referred to as euraudax.
** For now, AUK affiliation with UAF and introduction of a few 'Allure Fixe' events is a possibility in the future.
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What has been said about a zillion times is that the one occasionally two 24 events in the UK are recognised by AUK for historical reasons, i.e., there was a time before AUK when such provided a route to ride PBP, and AUK looks to return the favour by supporting these events which have been through some very lean years by recognising them for AUK awards.
Precisely. The key concept there is recognition.
The fact they can be used towards some AUK awards does not make them AUK events (BR or BRM or anything else).
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Obviously the 24 stands out from the other events in many ways, especially as it is the only 'Allure Libre' event on the calendar. From that standpoint alone, it deserves to be a BRM.
I'm sorry but this is nonsense. All AUK events are 'Allure Libre' **.
The only 'audax' events which are not 'Allure Libre' are those run under the rules of the UAF - a style where everyone is kept together and at a fixed pace by a road captain, sometimes referred to as euraudax.
** For now, AUK affiliation with UAF and introduction of a few 'Allure Fixe' events is a possibility in the future.
I'm taking the French at face value, and 'Allure Libre' means 'Free Pace'. The 24 has no minimum or maximum speed, whereas all other points-bearing rides do, and are therefore not run at a free pace, simply within wide limits.
Obviously there are physical limits and the overall course for the 24 is scheduled for between 500 and 550 miles to cover the likely podium placings. But that's a recognition of what is achievable.
I like that 'inclusive' aspect of the 24, but the restriction to only members of CTT affiliated clubs excludes recumbents and some other types of machine. That revolves around insurance partly. I feel that it would be nice if there were other 'Free Pace' events. where the boldness to enter is not contained by fitting within the usual 15 to 30 kph template, and where any human-powered machine could enter.
The absence of 'Allure Fixe' events does leave a gap for those who like to conform to even tighter limits, and for those who would like to control such events. There's always a market for satisfying the needs of those who like to be bound by restrictions, often with numerous sub-clauses.
A case of 'chacun a son gout, or chacun à son goût'. One's English, and one's French, the main difference being where you place the accent. Like 'Allure Libre', which in English would seem to mean 'within broad limits, defined by a committee,' and those limits vary according to whether it's a BR or a BRM.
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Navigation is not an intrinsic part of randonneuring. Think of the blind tandem stoker, is he not a randonneur?
I do notice that there's a single point allocation across all the distances in the 24 now. So it looks like the spoilsports have been hobbling it.
Damon I think that's just a display issue - I'm fairly sure that the appropriate points have been allocated to each individual.
...but looping for 24 hours trying to outdo each other is not in the randonneur spirit
The 'looping for 24 hours' isn't particularly in the randonneur spirit but the 'trying to outdo each other' is (some) part of being a randonneur. The ACP set up the Fleche Velocio in 1947, well after the split from UAF brevets in 1921. The ACP strongly values every team attempting the maximum distance possible, hence the 2 hour limit for stops at controls (which I disagree with) and the 20% tolerance in actual versus planned distance (360km minimum). Each year, the ACP trophy for the most distance achieved is much sought after. US Metro (the cycling club of the Parisien transport union) still holds the Fleche Velocio record at 778km in 24 hours.
Audax Oz's Fleche Oppy record is 770km but a couple of teams (they beat the male and female team distances respectively) were DQed a couple of years ago for hand ups from following cars between controls. Drew and I were members of the same cycling club, back in his junior days.
https://cyclingtips.com/2016/03/oppy-record-breakers-disqualified-for-breaking-the-rules/
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Think of the motos at PBP, for one. Some overseas organisers of long and remote brevets patrol the route in motor vehicles, which can be very helpful where it is difficult to carry enough water.
First I've heard of motos at PBP. What do they do? But I increasingly get the impression that PBP and LEL are organized in rather different ways to other audaxes (in the UK at least).
PBP also has support at the roadside from stalls providing crepes, cafes staying open all night.
;D :thumbsup:
None of this is /personal/ support which is not permitted.
Personal support is a whole other kettle of fishy quavers. I was curious about the idea of organiser support between controls. LWaB said:
Every other country takes the approach that you can have whatever personal support you like at controls but only organiser-provided support between controls.
Which was in response to ESL's account of driving to a bike shop to get a part for a stranded rider – which I guess counts as personal support. In that context, mention of organiser-provided support seems to raise the possibility of phoning the organiser to do the same. I've no idea what the rules say but as far as I can see that's not in The Spirit of Audax and I can only imagine the response would be either "There's a bike shop in Z-ville, here's the number of a taxi firm" or "..."
As I mentioned, some foreign organisers/ support crew drive the brevet course to provide support at controls because there are no practical alternatives at those controls and there may be no alternative roads. They may also stop between controls to provide riders with water, food or mechanical support or to pick up broken riders in the middle of nowhere. Picking up riders doesn't apply in most parts of the UK; there are very few places that are truly remote. None of that is 'personal support' to a specific rider; it is provided by the organiser to whoever needs it among the event's riders.
Randonneurs USA explain things quite clearly. https://rusa.org/newsletter/11-04-09.html
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Let's explore the repeated assertion that BRMs are REQUIRED (as in, no other form of qualification would be accepted) as qualifiers for events.
Can you give examples other than PBP (for which ACP stipulate a current year ACP/BRM SR)?
As a single example, the Rocky Mountain 1200 (http://www.randonneurs.bc.ca) specifies an ACP SR, or ACP 1000km, or LRM 1200+km.
Most USA 1200km rides, AFAICT, (eg the Colorado High Country 1200 (http://www.rmccrides.com/brevet-chc-main.htm)) are slightly more open in that they'll allow ACP brevets or RUSA events to be used - but good luck with finding an RUSA brevet over here ...
(Fairly obviously, what's in black and white on the entry page isn't necessarily what the organisers will enforce, and I'd probably be a bit surprised if a polite email didn't lead to them accepting appropriate locally homologated rides on a case by case basis, but I certainly wouldn't book flights until I'd been told that they would ...)
BC Randonneurs are keen on qualification, see below:
"Qualification: To be permitted to ride an ACP sanctioned 1000 in BC, you must have completed the basic Super Randonneur series (200, 300, 400, 600 km) at some point in your life."
and
"For rides over 200 km, a rider must qualify at a shorter distance before attempting the next longer ride. A rider who has completed a distance in a previous season may advance to the next one in the current season without doing the shorter qualifier(s). (Exceptions may be made to this rule, but only with the prior approval of the ride organizer and the regional route coordinator.)"
They are not the only randonneuring group that asks for qualifiers by any stretch. Audax Randonneurs Allemagne are holding a Paris-Hamburg 1200 LRM this month. http://www.audax-randonneure.de/index.php?id=224
"Qualification 200 km 300 km 400 km 600 km in 2017 required"
Some organisers are not happy about accepting BR qualifiers in place of BRMs, particularly perms. The fact that there may not be a BRM of that length held in the UK prior to their event doesn't seem to mean much to pedantic organisers.
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Heather broke her mech hanger in 2003 near Dumfries. I had to finish sharpish, drive back to Dumfries, give Heather my bike at the Dumfries control, and drive back to Beattock to await Heather.
Heather arrived with a minute to spare. Tom was suspicious that we'd cheated, and it was sent upstairs for scrutiny. Heather was a bit miffed, and went on to do three 600s to remove suspicion. That's how she inadvertently became a Hyper Randonneur (BRM), and me too. She also has a spare mech hanger attached to her bike to this day.
That Heather is a good one.
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We didn't know that Hyper Randonneur was thing, until HK wondered if shows the first female HR, and Chris S pointed out she wasn't. I don't remember who the first was, it's on a thread here somewhere.
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Think of the motos at PBP, for one. Some overseas organisers of long and remote brevets patrol the route in motor vehicles, which can be very helpful where it is difficult to carry enough water.
First I've heard of motos at PBP. What do they do? But I increasingly get the impression that PBP and LEL are organized in rather different ways to other audaxes (in the UK at least).
PBP also has support at the roadside from stalls providing crepes, cafes staying open all night.
;D :thumbsup:
None of this is /personal/ support which is not permitted.
Personal support is a whole other kettle of fishy quavers. I was curious about the idea of organiser support between controls. LWaB said:
Every other country takes the approach that you can have whatever personal support you like at controls but only organiser-provided support between controls.
Which was in response to ESL's account of driving to a bike shop to get a part for a stranded rider – which I guess counts as personal support. In that context, mention of organiser-provided support seems to raise the possibility of phoning the organiser to do the same. I've no idea what the rules say but as far as I can see that's not in The Spirit of Audax and I can only imagine the response would be either "There's a bike shop in Z-ville, here's the number of a taxi firm" or "..."
As I mentioned, some foreign organisers/ support crew drive the brevet course to provide support at controls because there are no practical alternatives at those controls and there may be no alternative roads. They may also stop between controls to provide riders with water, food or mechanical support or to pick up broken riders in the middle of nowhere. Picking up riders doesn't apply in most parts of the UK; there are very few places that are truly remote. None of that is 'personal support' to a specific rider; it is provided by the organiser to whoever needs it among the event's riders.
Understood, thanks.
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... I am not even sure DIY should be considered "brevets"... when in most cases they are well rehearsed loops around X's personal address
Some are, most aren't, but where's your point?
Are you saying riders should be barred from taking part in events more than , say, 3 times because after that it's no longer 'audacious'?
I must have ridden the Poor Student 7 - 8 times and I'm a beginner compared to some. Fact is over time its inevitable audacious outings turn into old friends. What then?
DIY are convenience. I am on course for a RRTY... I have not committed to anything in December-January-February, basically because I am not sure whether that day it will be possible to ride at all. So I will instead plan some handy DIY from my home to do at my conveninece when there is no ice on the roads.
It's a practical way to get those points I need in winter, but if it wasn't for the points, the all concept of DIY as a brevet makes little sense. Maybe I am giving too much meaning to a Brevet, which in essence is just a certificate that says "you've cycled 200 km going through A and B and C" within time restrictions.
If it wasn't for the points and the vanity of the award, why would I pay 4 pounds to get a piece of paper that certifies that I have cycled 200 km around my house, when I know already I have?
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If it wasn't for the points and the vanity of the award, why would I pay 4 pounds to get a piece of paper that certifies that I have cycled 200 km around my house, when I know already I have?
Why indeed would you pay £4 when it's cheaper to buy in bulk? ;)
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I'm taking the French at face value out of context, and 'Allure Libre' means 'Free Pace'. The 24 has no minimum or maximum speed, whereas all other points-bearing rides do, and are therefore not run at a free pace, simply within wide limits.
In the context of audax, or randonneur cycling in general, allure libre events all have either time limits or speed limits (even though each participant is free to choose their own pace within those limits).
It is simply a convenient description to distinguish such events from the UAF style where a set pace is imposed.
But the argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny anyway.
Whilst the 24 hr TT event, organised under CTT rules, has no speed limits; in an AUK context, you only get points for a 24 if you've ridden at least 360km. That imposes a 'speed limit' - but it still doesn't make it a BR or BRM or any other kind of audax event.
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... I am not even sure DIY should be considered "brevets"... when in most cases they are well rehearsed loops around X's personal address
Some are, most aren't, but where's your point?
Are you saying riders should be barred from taking part in events more than , say, 3 times because after that it's no longer 'audacious'?
I must have ridden the Poor Student 7 - 8 times and I'm a beginner compared to some. Fact is over time its inevitable audacious outings turn into old friends. What then?
DIY are convenience. I am on course for a RRTY... I have not committed to anything in December-January-February, basically because I am not sure whether that day it will be possible to ride at all. So I will instead plan some handy DIY from my home to do at my conveninece when there is no ice on the roads.
It's a practical way to get those points I need in winter, but if it wasn't for the points, the all concept of DIY as a brevet makes little sense. Maybe I am giving too much meaning to a Brevet, which in essence is just a certificate that says "you've cycled 200 km going through A and B and C" within time restrictions.
If it wasn't for the points and the vanity of the award, why would I pay 4 pounds to get a piece of paper that certifies that I have cycled 200 km around my house, when I know already I have?
Also have you seen how few 200s are in the calendar in February. Without DIY most rrty attempts would falter at this time.
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Whilst the 24 hr TT event, organised under CTT rules, has no speed limits; in an AUK context, you only get points for a 24 if you've ridden at least 360km. That imposes a 'speed limit' - but it still doesn't make it a BR or BRM or any other kind of audax event.
The upper Audax speed limit (30kph) is kind of applied too as you can't get more than 7 points (e.g. 24h*30kph=720km) even if you're lucky enough to be able to ride 800km or more in a 24.
I think it's great that AUK awards points for 24h TT participation, even if it seems shoe-horned into the rules.
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I think it's great that AUK awards points for 24h TT participation, even if it seems shoe-horned into the rules.
History, innit ?
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If it wasn't for the points and the vanity of the award, why would I pay 4 pounds to get a piece of paper that certifies that I have cycled 200 km around my house, when I know already I have?
Why indeed would you pay £4 when it's cheaper to buy in bulk? ;)
Indeed, this DIY org far prefers that... less admin...
As for "Points and Vanity", why bother riding Brevets at all?
Many AUK's gain a sense of participation and purpose from completing Brevets/Validated events, and that applies whether the event is a Calendar, Perm or DIY.
Some might argue that Cals are harder than Perms or vice-versa, but the variance in rider's capabilities, routes and conditions render the argument meaningless.
The key thing - and it seems to me, something which is very much under-appreciated - is that events organised under different types of Brevet Categories comply to the same basic set of regulations, and thereby equivalent for AUK awards purposes.
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I work alternate weekends so frequently go long spells between local calendar events on non-working weekends, especially during the winter. Riding DIYs on my non-working weekdays enables me continue to pursue SRs, RRtYs and, this year, an R10000. Without DIYs I'd still ride my bike, but I wouldn't be able to participate in the 'points and badges' elements of being an AUK.
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As for "Points and Vanity", why bother riding Brevets at all?
Mainly because I trust an organiser to deliver a nice day out on the bike, which is different (and most likely better) from the one I would map on my own. On longer events, it's the camaraderie, the possibility to cycle very far where food and occasionally even sleep has been arranged, so I don't have to carry 10 kg of panniers and I can enjoy a mountain pass instead of hating it.
I still have to get a grip on the idea of riding 600 km stopping at Esso gas stations to validate my card, but I might one day... you never know.
I generally look forward to riding a brevet... I might even go for the RRTY and the SR, but I won't obsess over them... I'm in it for the fun, it doesn't have to be a chore.
Point collection is not something I crave... the RRTY idea is more to keep fitness up for the longer events in the summer, than to put my name on an award.
Let's put it this way: if in order to get a brevet I'd have to cycle on the A515 to get to an info control, I'd rather not get the brevet and the points and take an alternative route to enjy my ride. This probably sums the attitude quite well
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With an RRA officiated LEJOG in progress, it's as well to point out the hierarchy of observation entailed in validated events.
I remember a running of Tom Hanley's 'Over the Edge', where someone couldn't see the point of going over the big climb the event was named after. Tom had the secret control there. The short-cutters were mortified at the Drumlanrig control, when they found out that their 400 PBP qualifier wouldn't be validated. I do like a stickler.
Heather broke her mech hanger in 2003 near Dumfries. I had to finish sharpish, drive back to Dumfries, give Heather my bike at the Dumfries control, and drive back to Beattock to await Heather.
Heather arrived with a minute to spare. Tom was suspicious that we'd cheated, and it was sent upstairs for scrutiny. Heather was a bit miffed, and went on to do three 600s to remove suspicion. That's how she inadvertently became a Hyper Randonneur (BRM), and me too. She also has a spare mech hanger attached to her bike to this day.
I have to agree Tom is a stickler for detail and as such I feel, on his behalf, I need to make this record of events accurate. I've always helped or ridden all his events.
Tom has NEVER had a secret control there were only ever info controls on the Buccleugh 400. Over the Edge was named from going over Firestone Edge after Alemoor reservoir on the road to Hawick. The control In question that was missed was on the Brevet card as Swyre on a road over a hill from Ettrick to Yarrow. The riders in question turned off the route too soon.
Tom would never accuse anyone of cheating but will always point out if the rules of Audax have not been observed.
I recall also Heather had been riding with Jack and he stayed with her until he knew you were on the way to help. I am assured there was no suspicion, only concern that she would make it in time, and it was certainly never sent 'upstairs'.
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Give our regards to Tom, he and his rides are much missed. I notice you say that the control was on the brevet card. Routesheets tended to get used every running, and it was often unclear if controls could be staffed. I recall a guy on a motorbike.
It was always a good idea to check the card, as that is definitive. It is a way of deterring alternative routing.
I recall that when I met Heather at the Dumfries control, she was out of time. I advised her not to put the time in the box, so as to blur that point. Tom looked concerned about that, and said he would seek clarification. It was a fast ride back, with a tailwind, so she made the time up.
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Give our regards to Tom, he and his rides are much missed. I notice you say that the control was on the brevet card. Routesheets tended to get used every running, and it was often unclear if controls could be staffed. I recall a guy on a motorbike.
That was our local dentist who used to ride out there to man it.
They were good events with a wonderful variety of riders. Had a guy ride it in a pair of chinos one year :)
Thank Heather for getting me round the Daylight I've always been grateful for that. It was the last long ride I ever did as I suffered with migraines for the next three years after it.
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Give our regards to Tom, he and his rides are much missed. I notice you say that the control was on the brevet card. Routesheets tended to get used every running, and it was often unclear if controls could be staffed. I recall a guy on a motorbike.
That was our local dentist who used to ride out there to man it.
They were good events with a wonderful variety of riders. Had a guy ride it in a pair of chinos one year :)
Thank Heather for getting me round the Daylight I've always been grateful for that. It was the last long ride I ever did as I suffered with migraines for the next three years after it.
Heather still tells the tale of a man announcing in broad Yorkshire tones that, it's not me bum, it's me testicles, in a café near Callander. A typical BRM moment.
I am laying a hedge just off the A701 at Lamancha this week. Pop in if you are around.
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We didn't know that Hyper Randonneur was thing, until HK wondered if shows the first female HR, and Chris S pointed out she wasn't. I don't remember who the first was, it's on a thread here somewhere.
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7466.msg2060240#msg2060240
Vickie Brown or Heather Swift?
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I got the idea of an Audax 24 from riding in the Borders. I felt much safer there than on the A49 and A41. My favourite area is North of Inverness. But that has become fashionable.
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A case of 'chacun a son gout, or chacun à son goût'. One's English, and one's French English, the main difference being where you place the accent.
FTFY ;)
<pedant>à chacun son goût</pedant>
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We didn't know that Hyper Randonneur was thing, until HK wondered if shows the first female HR, and Chris S pointed out she wasn't. I don't remember who the first was, it's on a thread here somewhere.
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=7466.msg2060240#msg2060240
Vickie Brown or Heather Swift?
If you're just looking at earliest female 4x600 (rather than when HR 'was a thing') then Liz Creese or Sheila Simpson, in 1991 or maybe 1990. Sheila certainly rode 3x600 events plus PBP in 1991, but I suspect Liz may have ridden 4x600 even before PBP took place, as there were 6 600s calendared that year. And either of them could have ridden 4x including 1 or more Perms, in 1990 - there were only 3 600s that year and they both rode them all - but we don't have any surviving central records of Perms going back that far. I rather doubt if anyone male or female acheived HR before 1990, unless maybe by doing PBP and Le-JoG in the same year.
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Thanks for the correction FF. You can tell that my own involvement with audax doesn't go further back than 1992.
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Before 1991, doing multiple night-rides in a year was generally regarded as eccentric and likely injurious to health, even among hardened audaxers.
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<pedant>à chacun son goût</pedant>
;D
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A case of 'chacun a son gout, or chacun à son goût'. One's English, and one's French English, the main difference being where you place the accent.
FTFY ;)
<pedant>à chacun son goût</pedant>
Oddly. A search on allure libre leads to some sort of parkrun in France.
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Oddly. A search on allure libre leads to some sort of parkrun in France.
Well, 'randonnée' refers to much more than just cycling.
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Oddly. A search on allure libre leads to some sort of parkrun in France.
Using a generic term for something specific is a nasty habit.
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There isn't a satisfactory term for what we do. Audax conveys the boldness but not much else.
I wonder why we don't think of BPs, rather than BRs, a 200 BP would be more inclusive. The voting suggests that would be popular and populaire.
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I wonder why we don't think of BPs, rather than BRs, a 200 BP would be more inclusive.
Presumably the main reason for offering a 200 BP would be to allow more relaxed speed limits, but this would require keeping the finish open much later, or starting much earlier, so I can't see many organisers being too interested in that.
It might work if you're running it concurrently with a longer event, as is the case with Black Sheep's 'This Is Not A Tour' events next year, which include a 300 BP and a 400 BP.
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The reason for those being BP is that the routes are probably not rideable within BR time limits.
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The reason for those being BP is that the routes are probably not rideable within BR time limits.
They are also available as BR though.
Tbh, I would probably have trouble completing the 400 inside the BP time limits at current levels of fitness. Looks like an incredible route though.
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<tinat stuff ... >
The reason for those being BP is that the routes are probably not rideable within BR time limits.
They are also available as BR though.
Tbh, I would probably have trouble completing the 400 inside the BP time limits at current levels of fitness. Looks like an incredible route though.
Cudzo is right on this one. mark expects most riders would fail on the BR, and could be said to be steering riders towards the BP
(And I believe the 400BP came before the 600 - so Mark knew that his latest finishers would likely be the 400BP riders).
Sometimes an organiser doesn't regard his bedtime as the highest priority when running events! :)
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I wonder why we don't think of BPs, rather than BRs, a 200 BP would be more inclusive.
Presumably the main reason for offering a 200 BP would be to allow more relaxed speed limits, but this would require keeping the finish open much later, or starting much earlier, so I can't see many organisers being too interested in that.
It might work if you're running it concurrently with a longer event, as is the case with Black Sheep's 'This Is Not A Tour' events next year, which include a 300 BP and a 400 BP.
It would be easy to run a 200 BP as a companion ride to a 300 . There's an appetite for Challenge rides. A