Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Freewheeling => Racing => Topic started by: jellied on 30 May, 2010, 05:13:29 pm
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Seeing as it's not 1st Apil I thought this worth a look.
Tiny electric motors in the down tube? What ever next?
http://www.bikebiz.com/news/32235/Former-pro-says-mechanised-doping-is-real (http://www.bikebiz.com/news/32235/Former-pro-says-mechanised-doping-is-real)
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what a cunning idea. I have suggest in the past that some riders of my acquaintence carry their batteries in the saddle bags. I don't really see any story there though. A newspaper starts a rumour, a former racer says he's ridden a powered bike.
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All "power sports" are suspect; athletics, cycling, rowing, anything where all you need is power, not skill.
Darts is the only incorruptible sport :)
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All "power sports" are suspect; athletics, cycling, rowing, anything where all you need is power, not skill.
Darts is the only incorruptible sport :)
Like snooker?
Betting rings?
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Secret Squirrel Club busted ;D
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Wow. I'm saving up for one of those as from now! So much less obvious than a stock electrically assisted bike that is on my birthday list for a couple of years time.
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Is this really suspicious or just tinfoilhatland?
Cancellaras’ Electric bike ??? « The cycling blog (http://worldwidecyclesblog.com/2010/05/30/cancellaras-electric-bike/)
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What I learnt from that is that Cancellara knows that if he changes up a gear and keeps the same cadence he will go faster.
Surely an electric engine of that size wouldn't be able to produce the torque required for such an uphill acceleration?
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"It's unbelievable. You push the button and this gets the bicycle up to speed, no need to pedal, just make it look as though you're pedalling. You can ride at 50 kmh without forcing, without fatigue."
The motor produces a low hum, but not loud enough for bystanders to hear, especially in the middle of a pack of riders.
"The mechanism saves at least 50 watts,
Load of twaddle. One part of the article says the motors output 100W. Then this rubbish.
Even 100W isn't enough to change speed from 40kph to 50kph.
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Wow. I can't believe they're making those accusations so bluntly - surely he'll sue the pants off them?
It would be astounding if it's true - I can only laugh at the thought. All the years of poisoning their bodies with drugs and sneakily hiding blood and all that palaver - and he just gets an engine.
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It doesn't even pass the giggle test.
Spectacularly easy to detect, once you start looking.
And I'm sure there's voodoo in the power numbers quoted. There's phones that don't run that long on batteries that light.
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It doesn't even pass the giggle test.
Spectacularly easy to detect, once you start looking.
And I'm sure there's voodoo in the power numbers quoted. There's phones that don't run that long on batteries that light.
Lithium polymer batteries are easy to reconfigure into interesting shapes. The weights ren't so bad - 1.7kg all up for 45mins at 200W. Try 200W for just a few minutes and it could mak a difference,
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Even 100W isn't enough to change speed from 40kph to 50kph.
I'd say this is in the ballpark at least. I've been tested at around 300W at my anaerobic threshold. I can ride a 10 mile TT at my anaerobic threshold at 40kph (on a good day!) An extra 100W on top of my 300W would be very noticeable.
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It's miles out. an extra 100W will give you 3kph more, not 10.
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Spectacularly easy to detect, once you start looking.
That's the real problem.
It would be end of team if caught too, 'cos it would be difficult to fob off on the rider.
Technically, it's plausible. You could probably come up with something that would give an extra 50-100W for half an hour or so, and still keep the bike under the UCI weight limit.
It would probably be even more useful to the climbers - an extra 1 metre per second on a summit finish would make a lot of difference.
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I've seen a single youtube vid of this motor (so all my comments are of course accurate and well informed) but the noise it made was very noticeable. A high pitched whine that sounded just like a small electric motor.
I think it would be noticed quite quickly.
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A high pitched whine that sounded just like a small electric motor.
I think it would be noticed quite quickly.
Unless you're Cadel Evans. ;D
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A high pitched whine that sounded just like a small electric motor.
I think it would be noticed quite quickly.
Unless you're Cadel Evans. ;D
ROFL ;D
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Is it just suspicious, or is it funny ;D
YouTube
- LES ETRANGES CHANGEMENTS DE VELO DE FABIAN CANCELLARA
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMFoDWrKAiM)
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A high pitched whine that sounded just like a small electric motor.
I think it would be noticed quite quickly.
Unless you're Cadel Evans. ;D
His performance has improved quite a bit recently.... ;D
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This video makes some pretty strong accusations! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nd13ARuvVE)
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FLATULENCE POWER VERBOTEN - just announced: UCI to ban "pressurized doping". Riders will be monitored for the amount of gas they produce. It has been estimated that some riders can produce as much as 50 watts of "back pressure" power. If over a to-be-determined limit, a rider will receive a two year suspension. WADA has developed a new test called the Flatulence Abundance Recognition Test, or FART.
Late this afternoon, Lance Armstrong twatted that The Radioshack team has removed Tex-Mex food from all it's menus. Floyd Landis, in an interview on Larry King Live, stated that he had gas in the past and that this was a problem with all his former teammates. Greg LeMond offered support to Landis for "clearing the air". In a related statement to the press, Alberto Contador denied that he ordered extra helpings of cassoulet during his recent "scouting" visit to the Pyrenees. Spanish authorities declined to investigate, but CONI is investigating recent Giro d'Italia results for violations of Italian law.
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FLATULENCE POWER VERBOTEN - just announced: UCI to ban "pressurized doping". Riders will be monitored for the amount of gas they produce. It has been estimated that some riders can produce as much as 50 watts of "back pressure" power. If over a to-be-determined limit, a rider will receive a two year suspension. WADA has developed a new test called the Flatulence Abundance Recognition Test, or FART.
Late this afternoon, Lance Armstrong twatted that The Radioshack team has removed Tex-Mex food from all it's menus. Floyd Landis, in an interview on Larry King Live, stated that he had gas in the past and that this was a problem with all his former teammates. Greg LeMond offered support to Landis for "clearing the air". In a related statement to the press, Alberto Contador denied that he ordered extra helpings of cassoulet during his recent "scouting" visit to the Pyrenees. Spanish authorities declined to investigate, but CONI is investigating recent Giro d'Italia results for violations of Italian law.
;D ;D ;D ;D
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BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/cycling/8721649.stm) have now picked up the story. I read the first line as "It sounds like something you might catch Denis Menchov doing" ::-).
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"I sat at a meeting with the UCI last year and drew on the blackboard exactly how this might work," Boardman told the Telegraph. "I showed them some of the sophisticated boosting technology now available, mainly from F1 teams, that can get a kilowatt out of a single AAA battery."
Erm ... no, big guy, I really don't think so! 1200mAh maybe? Unless you're installing regenerative breaking too ...
1.2Ah x 1.5v=1.8Wh ... it might help if you and your bike weigh about 1.5kg.
Lets relate this to the real world. If I put 6 shiny, freshly charged Ni-Cad batteries into my son's remote control car, he'll get about 40 minutes entertainment out of it before it dies a death - and that's not constant use either.
Utterly, utterly implausible.
I did check the date when the story first broke, but I can't see why it's getting any credence at all.
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There is enough energy in some Li-ion bike light batteries to get me to work at a reasonable speed. 20W for two hours, or 120W for 20 minutes? Developing a small enough BB motor with enough torque is the tricky bit, because the BB of a bike has as much torque through it as a V6 petrol engine; then it's geared up for the rear wheel where it becomes more manageable. That's why we have hub gears and hub motors.
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"I sat at a meeting with the UCI last year and drew on the blackboard exactly how this might work," Boardman told the Telegraph. "I showed them some of the sophisticated boosting technology now available, mainly from F1 teams, that can get a kilowatt out of a single AAA battery."
Erm ... no, big guy, I really don't think so! 1200mAh maybe? Unless you're installing regenerative breaking too ...
1.2Ah x 1.5v=1.8Wh
I had to do the sums just to check, but yes, he's a factor of 1000 out. Back to school Chris!
Also, quite ironic, as Chris has been heavily involved with the GB team's top secret equipment development. Did he spend his time hiding AAAs in seattubes?
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"I sat at a meeting with the UCI last year and drew on the blackboard exactly how this might work," Boardman told the Telegraph. "I showed them some of the sophisticated boosting technology now available, mainly from F1 teams, that can get a kilowatt out of a single AAA battery."
Erm ... no, big guy, I really don't think so! 1200mAh maybe? Unless you're installing regenerative breaking too ...
1.2Ah x 1.5v=1.8Wh
A Watt is a joule per second. A Watt hour is a joule per second for an hour. 1.8Wh could be 1kW for 6.5 seconds.
Anyhow, I'll now be replacing my terminology:
"Wow, did you see Dave attack then? He really pressed the button."
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Getting one kW out of a 1.5v battery would require a fairly huge current (>600A), and the cabling and motor design would be equally huge.
Ignoring the infeasibility of that part of the design, very few chemical batteries can produce that sort of current, certainly no off the shelf battery designs.
You may be able to get a moderate boost over a longer period of time, and as others have said stuffing the frame with batteries of a very modern battery types (eg Lithium Polymer) might work, but as Roger points out, converting that into a usable torque at the bottom bracket would be challenging.
It does strike me that if this is considered a potential problem, then checking bikes for it would be trivial, if their excessive mass doesn't give them away, a quick X-Ray certainly will, this will be a complex and easily identifiable structure.
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X-Ray? They'll all go back to steel frames! ;D
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It wouldn't matter, with the right equipment (which isn't terribly exotic), you could easily see through the thin steel of a bicycle tube. If you couldn't somehow, that in itself would be suspicious.
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Looks like they'll be screening for it in the TdeF BBC Sport - Cycling - UCI to introduce motor scanners for Tour de France (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/cycling/8749048.stm)
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::-)
Am I missing something?
Seriously, is there a massive unidentified gap in my engineering knowledge? The battery/motor tech required to make this feasable is decades ahead of the state of the art today.
Why is anybody taking this seriously?
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::-)
Am I missing something?
Seriously, is there a massive unidentified gap in my engineering knowledge? The battery/motor tech required to make this feasable is decades ahead of the state of the art today.
Why is anybody taking this seriously?
How big is the battery for a powerful bike light? There's certainly enough energy in that to make a difference over the closing km of a race. As I posted somewhere above, the main problem is buildng a small motor with enough torque to make a difference at the bottom bracket end of the transmission. Mechanically it's much easier at the hub end, but that would be spotted.
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Still doesn't pass my giggle test.
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About 60s in..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQi5XHi5NXs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQi5XHi5NXs)
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Bloody noisy, tho'. All you need to detect that is a pair of ears!
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It is, isn't it. Maybe a bit of serious fettling would quieten it some.
A pack of riders isn't all that noisy, mostly whirring transmission, shouts and clearing of throats. On a crit anyway- presumably even quieter out on the open road.
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Considering how quickly a team of race mechanics can strip an engine to measure for irregularities in car/motorbike racing. It would only take minutes for a bicycle that wins a stage to be impounded at the finish of a stage and stripped to check. Stupid story
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After reviewing a few YouTube videos I think it is too noisy for use in pack racing.
I wasn't quite sure how it worked, this video from the Gruber assist people explains it nicely.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmPUze3WBTw&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmPUze3WBTw&feature=related)
It would however be excellent for cheating in the local TT. Wait until you are a couple of miles from the start, give it a boost while no other riders or marshalls are in earshot.
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Considering how quickly a team of race mechanics can strip an engine to measure for irregularities in car/motorbike racing. It would only take minutes for a bicycle that wins a stage to be impounded at the finish of a stage and stripped to check. Stupid story
And how often has that happened over the last couple of years? It's easy to hide something that no one is looking for.
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OK, it's ridiculous. But why is Davide Cassani getting involved in the accusations?
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OK, it's ridiculous. But why is Davide Cassani getting involved in the accusations?
A publicity stunt for the television channel ? Or perhaps he's getting paid by the manufacturers of said device ?
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It would make a great viral ad campaign, for sure.
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It could be that the tech is on the brink of becoming usable.
This could be an advertising ploy, a touch of the P.T Barnums.
Maybe you could manufacture an electric motor that fits in a planetery gear that could indeed be hidden inside a hub or BB.
How big is CF BB shell?
You could bond a pretty big ally shell inside that, have ally spigots extending into the tubes which are then carbon wrapped to hide it.
Bosch the power tool manufacturer used to have a converted scooter they took around trade shows, it was powered by a 24v SDS drill running on a nicad pack and it was pretty nippy, that was 6 years ago.
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I think its feasible that the device could have been used in a race
The only technical issue I can see, once the control gear has been concealed, is that the motor (of the Gruber Assist- there isn't anything similar as far as I know) makes a fair bit of noise, noticeable when rattling over cobbles with a lot of crowd noise? no idea.
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I bet with some fiddling, and more carefully machined gears (ie totally custom), and good lubrication you could reduce the noise a lot. You just need two bikes, and then swap them over at an appropriate point.
As others have said, if no one was looking for it, it would be relatively easy to hide it.
The design is actually rather good, since many electric bikes have the drive on the wheel, which only really works at one speed. This arrangement uses the bikes own gearing, which is an efficient use of the existing mechanics. At around £2000 it's a bit rich for me however!
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Just a thought, but when it's running, fine. but when it's not running, unless there's a clutch mechanism, surely some portion of the rider's energy is going into turning the motor - where it's acting as a dynamo. surely that's a chunk of effort that should be spent racing...
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Which would be a reason to swap bikes at the appropriate time. Another similar reason would be the extra weight of the motor, and more significantly the batteries.
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Just a thought, but when it's running, fine. but when it's not running, unless there's a clutch mechanism, surely some portion of the rider's energy is going into turning the motor - where it's acting as a dynamo. surely that's a chunk of effort that should be spent racing...
I think there's a freewheel mechanism built into the drive so the extra energy required to pedal with the motor off is negligible.
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Which would be a reason to swap bikes at the appropriate time. Another similar reason would be the extra weight of the motor, and more significantly the batteries.
OTOH some of the bikes are so light now that ballast has to be added to bring them up to the UCI minimum weight. With the motor and batteries replacing the usual ballast the weight penalty might be as low as zero.
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They have made the first carbon race electric bike (http://www.bikeos.com/index.php/bicicletas/electricas/bicicleta-electrica-bh-emotion-sport-carbon-ultralight-2011.html) :facepalm:
more info here (http://www.bh-emotion.com/catalogo.aspx) choose road and carbon ultralight
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How much trail?
Must steer like an oil tanker.
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I wonder whether it would be possible to build an asynchronous (induction) motor, using a Hottowtech II-type crank spindle as the rotor, just by adding the armature and windings around it. No moving parts added, no noisy gears. You wouldn't be able to produce a huge amount of power at such a low angular velocity, but even 10W continuously over the course of a race could well be the difference between winning or finishing in the bunch... The biggest problem I see would be getting rid of the heat generated in the spindle, to prevent the BB bearings seizing.
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The biggest problem I see would be getting rid of the heat generated in the spindle, to prevent the BB bearings seizing.
That must be why all these top-end chain sets are getting ceramic bearings ;D
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I bet with some fiddling, and more carefully machined gears (ie totally custom), and good lubrication you could reduce the noise a lot. You just need two bikes, and then swap them over at an appropriate point.
That sounds like it might work.
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Swapping bikes at key points in a race is a big part of these ridiculous Cancellara accusations.
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They have made the first carbon race electric bike (http://www.bikeos.com/index.php/bicicletas/electricas/bicicleta-electrica-bh-emotion-sport-carbon-ultralight-2011.html) :facepalm:
more info here (http://www.bh-emotion.com/catalogo.aspx) choose road and carbon ultralight
Cannondales approach looks nicer.
(http://www.cytronex.com/bikes/view/supersix.jpg)
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Not suggesting it's nice, but rather nicer than the oil tanker.
With a Gruber Assist, and perhaps a similar sort of bottle-shaped battery pack, that would look even neater.
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They have made the first carbon race electric bike (http://www.bikeos.com/index.php/bicicletas/electricas/bicicleta-electrica-bh-emotion-sport-carbon-ultralight-2011.html) :facepalm:
more info here (http://www.bh-emotion.com/catalogo.aspx) choose road and carbon ultralight
That really is remarkable, It's got Dura Ace wheels.
And a chainguard.
(http://www.bikeos.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/280x170/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/3/5/35f1f5ce96a6e9063f26689fa9458da1.jpg)
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That's a mosnstrosity - saddle sloping down, bars sloping up... integral lights and dynohub suggest practicality, fragile-looking wheels sacrifice practicality for light weight... and where do you carry your waterbottles?
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I've just had another look at that Cannondale thing, and although the base bike is a Cannondale the e-bike conversion is done by a company called Cytronex. The motor is in the hub and the lighting is powered by the battery.
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Specialized had an suitably ridiculous take on this utterly absurd topic at the launch of their 2011 road range...
(http://cdn.mos.bikeradar.com/images/news/2010/06/27/1277617937242-pmwo5mbcpsyc-500-90-500-70.jpg)
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ROFLMAO ;D
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Never mind Cancellara's Spesh, its Team Sky's Pinarellos that need looking at after yesterday's result :demon:
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Getting one kW out of a 1.5v battery would require a fairly huge current (>600A), and the cabling and motor design would be equally huge.
Ignoring the infeasibility of that part of the design, very few chemical batteries can produce that sort of current, certainly no off the shelf battery designs.
How about if the battery charges a capacitor first? How much current could be produced from the capacitor?
The amount of energy in a single AAA would be impressive if released all at once.
I appreciate this isn't relevant to electric bikes in the real world - that need power for more than a second.
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You'd need a pretty beefy capacitor to release that much energy without exploding. Possibly a modern Ultracapacitor could do it, but I have no idea what their technology is, and how much current it could tolerate. Most electrolytics (which a large capacitance device would probably need to be) would explode, messily, if you tried to draw that sort of current.
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flywheel in the frame.
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KERS in the diskwheel
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<necro>
Worth a read:
http://cyclingtips.com.au/2015/04/hidden-motors-for-road-bikes-exist-heres-how-they-work/
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Now Cipollini is casting motorised doping aspersions in Contador's direction:-
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contador-responds-to-cipollinis-doubts-about-motors-and-bike-changes