Using tracklogs to validate DIY perms

[PaulF]

From Mseries
 All I need now is someone to make a GPS that is tiny and will record my path without having to sit on my handle bars and get in the way. Don't need it to tell me where to go

There's a number of applications for the iPhone and Blackberry that will do that. I assume there's something similar for other GPS equipped phones

[TimO]

Something else worth thinking about, is that different GPSes will produce GPX data formatted differently.

This could also be something as relatively trivial as different sampling rates.  My Satmap Active 10 produces tracks at either 1 sample / second or 1 sample / 4 seconds.  This means that the logs that it produces are typically thousands or tens of thousands of points, and several megabytes in size.  Some tools, like Bikely, will refuse to import a file this big, so I have to use GPSBabel to simplify the route.  This of course means that it's no longer a pristine GPX file from the GPS, but has been manipulated.

Other formatting issues could make some tools refuse to entertain importing data from certain GPSes.

You may need to require GPX data to be in a certain format, and are likely to need (i) tools or mechanisms to convert into this form, and (ii) tools to validate whether the data is in an acceptable form.

[frankly frankie]

... I have absolutely no desire or reason to forge a DIY route. There is no point. My inner geek has no trouble in seeing that such a thing could be forged, but that doesn't mean anyone would actually do so.

Sure - but as a regulatory body, AUK are obliged to concern themselves with these kind of possibilities.  No-one's pretending its a watertight ship - its just a question of keeping the rules of the game such that everyone continues to enjoy playing it.

[edit] blimey its hard to get a post in edgeways here

[Deano]

Could you use it to validate climbing and AAA points?

[MSeries]

From Mseries
 All I need now is someone to make a GPS that is tiny and will record my path without having to sit on my handle bars and get in the way. Don't need it to tell me where to go

There's a number of applications for the iPhone and Blackberry that will do that. I assume there's something similar for other GPS equipped phones

really ? Is there one for the DTC Touch Pro ? and a big FO battery pack to keep it running for long enough ?

[Greenbank]

All I need now is someone to make a GPS that is tiny and will record my path without having to sit on my handle bars and get in the way.

My eTrex works quite well in my rackpack (as long as it is relatively near the top). I'm sure it would work quite well ziptied to the outside of a small seatpack on a 200km day ride.

Reliability is a bit of a gamble though. If it turns off for any reason (being knocked, vibration, duff batteries) you may do quite a bit of your ride without noticing or being logged...)

[Chris S]

Tracklogs for PoP? Gets my vote.

How long before we start to see retro audaxes? Fixed gear, no gps allowed - printed routesheet only, no computerised PoPs. There could be an award - in a retro 1930s styling.

[MSeries]

Tracklogs for PoP? Gets my vote.

How long before we start to see retro audaxes? Fixed gear, no gps allowed - printed routesheet only, no computerised PoPs. There could be an award - in a retro 1930s styling.

[philip]

All I need now is someone to make a GPS that is tiny and will record my path without having to sit on my handle bars and get in the way. Don't need it to tell me where to go.

Tiny GPS data loggers exist: I-GotU. I've not used one so I can't say how well it works.

[MSeries]

without agreed controls then I suppose one would have to stick to the proposed route.

[Paul D]

An example:

Danial's Mesh route - Frome to Amesbury. The shortest route is the A303.

The alternative is one of the nicest places to cycle in the country - the Wylye Valley. Unfortuanely this is about 10k longer, just for this section, so my Mesh routes end up at about 230k, although 'officially' I only ride about 205k.

Would validation via gpx file mean that a pre-authorised 'Frome - Amesbury via the Wylye Valley' be possible?

[red marley]

Sure - but as a regulatory body, AUK are obliged to concern themselves with these kind of possibilities.[...]

Yes I agree - but let's be consistent with the degree of scrutiny that is applied. I think that every Audax I've been on with info controls has had at least someone asking the controller at the end what the answer was (and long may that continue). FWC, Mileeater and some other rolls of honour are based on trust without any validation.

As has been pointed out upthread, there are real benefits to long distance cycling by allowing for tracklogs as proof of passage, that are within the spirit of Audax. I hope a proposal put forward by Danial is considered seriously, and not scuppered by techno-fear or distractions about hypothetical cheaters.

[frankly frankie]

How long before we start to see retro audaxes?

Already happening in the US.
(time penalties for using battery lights)

[TimO]

Tiny GPS data loggers exist: I-GotU. I've not used one so I can't say how well it works.

I use one quite often, as a backup to record where I've been when I'm on rides where someone else is leading, and I would like to have a record of where I've been for later reference.

The IgotU has a significantly poorer accuracy than a decent handlebar mounted GPS, largely because it has a much smaller and possibly badly orientated antenna.  It's probably perfectly adequate for this sort of purpose however.

Also, to get a decent runtime, you have to reduce the time between track points, but one point every 20 or 30 seconds will allow the battery to last 20+ hours, which is probably OK.

One of the downsides with it, is that it is hard to know if it's working reliably, I managed to have it configured wrong for the Bath Blast the other day, and it didn't record anything, but unlike a "conventional" GPS with a big display, the only difference between on and off is a blue LED which flashes every 15 seconds or so.

Having said all that, this sort of GPS is probably OK for this purpose, with the caveat that as with anything technological, things can go wrong in an non-obvious way (ie you delete the track instead of downloading it etc)

[Greenbank]

Would validation via gpx file mean that a pre-authorised 'Frome - Amesbury via the Wylye Valley' be possible?

I don't see why you need to specify the exact route. If you can specify one or two extra controls in the Wylye Valley using GPX as proof of passage, i.e.

Controls:

Frome: Receipt/ATM
Village_1: GPX
Village_2: GPX
Amesbury: Friar MTuck Cafe receipt
...

The distance is then the shortest route between the controls named (including villages where suitable controls don't exist) which should give a figure much closer to the real ride distance.

You just do the ride as normal, collecting the other receipts along the way. The DIY Organiser then looks at the GPX file to make sure you went through the other places as you said you would.

[MSeries]

If these changes are permitted I think it is important that every DIY organiser is part of it. Or permit all such entries to be submitted to Danial to allow all riders to use it.

[DanialW]

Of course, one could operate both a control-based system and an actual route system.

However another factor to consider is organiser time. The current DIY regs are designed to avoid organisers getting tied in checking and debating routes. If a system doesn't allow me to check a route and bang out an email in 2-3 minutes, I'm not going to use it.

[L Hedley]

At the end of the day, the only person they end up cheating is themselves!  But, maybe I could steal some of my hubbies track logs and submit them, they do lack personal info so can't really be checked, but then so do receipts etc, even a cashwithdrawal one can't really prove it was him or me!   Mind, I don't think anyone would actually beleive it if I submitted one for a ride longer than 100kms

[red marley]

If a system doesn't allow me to check a route and bang out an email in 2-3 minutes, I'm not going to use it.

I think that's a good point. It would be quite easy for us to use or write a simple bit of free software that given a GPX file would display its total distance, time taken etc. If that software was made available to everyone, riders could check it themselves before sending to to validators for er... validation. In theory it should be quicker than checking the times and locations of a set of soggy receipts.

[Rich753]

Would this eliminate the need for physical brevet cards, enabling me to submit everthing electronically?

Sounds like a win to me!

[MSeries]

Would this eliminate the need for physical brevet cards, enabling me to submit everthing electronically?

Sounds like a win to me!

I presume one would still need to send off an entry form.

[Rich753]

Why not submit entry form by email?

[MSeries]

Why not submit entry form by email?

I'd love to. DOn't really know the answer to your question. I'm just another punter.

[red marley]

I submit my DIY entry forms electronically as a PDF with a scanned copy of my signature.

[MSeries]

I submit my DIY entry forms electronically as a PDF with a scanned copy of my signature.

I knew they'd be differences amongst the different DIY organisers. Hence my earlier comment.