Using tracklogs to validate DIY perms

[DanialW]

Yeah, I take these as well.

[Rich753]

Why not submit entry form by email?

I'd love to. DOn't really know the answer to your question. I'm just another punter.

Me too!

Just struck me that this mechanism has a bunch of benefits - reduces chances of stuff getting lost in the post, could get a "proof of receipt" from the organiser for a submission, means you can still submit even if you've run out of envelopes or stamps (is that just me?), and I wondered just how electronic it could be?

So question for Danial - is this part of your thinking in your proposal to AUK committee?

[Greenbank]

I scanned in my signature, used Alt+PrtScr to screen grab it, cut and trimmed it in MS Paint, saved it as an image and inserted it in the right place into a Word Document version of the AUK Entry form (typed in to Word by myself) with the usual details (my name, auk number, address, etc) filled in. This is saved as my template.

When I want to enter a DIY ride I use this template file, add in the missing details (date, distance, controls, etc), save it as a new file and then email it to Andy U.

I've often done this at the last minute without getting the OK that the route is the required distance although this is risky and it'd be my fault for not getting it checked out first if it turned out to be under-distance. Haven't had a problem as most of my DIY rides are reasonably over distance anyway.

Reminds me, need to send one off to Andy with the DIY+Calendar ride for this weekend.

All of this is a small part of the whole approval/validation process though. A DIY Brevet Card still has to go to the Validator(s), recorder(s), back to the DIY organiser and then back to the rider.

[DanialW]

Just struck me that this mechanism has a bunch of benefits - reduces chances of stuff getting lost in the post, could get a "proof of receipt" from the organiser for a submission, means you can still submit even if you've run out of envelopes or stamps (is that just me?), and I wondered just how electronic it could be?

So question for Danial - is this part of your thinking in your proposal to AUK committee?

No, because it happens already. I'm always happy to take an entry form by email. Indeed, if you pay by Paypal for an AUK event, you won't fill out a standard application form.

[Rich753]

Just struck me that this mechanism has a bunch of benefits - reduces chances of stuff getting lost in the post, could get a "proof of receipt" from the organiser for a submission, means you can still submit even if you've run out of envelopes or stamps (is that just me?), and I wondered just how electronic it could be?

So question for Danial - is this part of your thinking in your proposal to AUK committee?

No, because it happens already. I'm always happy to take an entry form by email. Indeed, if you pay by Paypal for an AUK event, you won't fill out a standard application form.

<trying to keep up>

so how does/can the rider get his brevet card without submitting an sae?  Apologies if this is old hat to you all, feel free to simply point me to a relevant info point !

[Manotea]

so how does/can the rider get his brevet card without submitting an sae?  Apologies if this is old hat to you all, feel free to simply point me to a relevant info point !

Buy a job lot of DIY Brevet cards in advance. If nothing else you'll save on postage. I've forgotten how much they are but its something like 5 for £10. Then, assuming you have a validated route - or at least a route you are reasonably certain is AUK legal - all you have to do is email the org a prefilled appform as detailed by GB above with details of the controls appended to the bottom anytime before you actually setoff. Probably best to request deliver and read ack as proof of transmission. Leastways, thats what I do....

[mattc]

No, because it happens already. I'm always happy to take an entry form by email. Indeed, if you pay by Paypal for an AUK event, you won't fill out a standard application form.

<trying to keep up>

so how does/can the rider get his brevet card without submitting an sae?  Apologies if this is old hat to you all, feel free to simply point me to a relevant info point !

Much discussion here, just FYI:
DIY advice needed

[Greenbank]

Sorry, should have said, I buy the cards in bulk and have a stash lying around.

I've forgotten how much they are but its something like 5 for £10.

£2 each or 6 for £10, so you'll save £2 buying in bulk (although you generally need to put a 'Large' stamp on the SAE if you're buying 6).

That being said, I usually rely on shop/ATM receipts as proof of passage, not stamps in the card, so I usually leave the Brevet Card at home.

I've only ever once used a stamp/signature (luckily I had the card with me) and that's because I was right on the time limit and the B&B owner said she'd sign the card which saved me a few minutes wander down the road to a cashpoint that may not have been working.

[JJ]

I LOVE  the controls-based approach.  It'll open up so many beautiful rides without fundamentally changing what an Audax is, so I'd say let's get that working before trying to open up the route-based approach.

As to falsifying, IF anyone cares, I think it would be a good deal more trouble to make a file up with realistically varying speeds along the way, than to fake up receipts.  if someone goes round the whole route at exactly 22.5kph, then I think we might smell a rodent.

Danial, you're my hero.

[Panoramix]

If a system doesn't allow me to check a route and bang out an email in 2-3 minutes, I'm not going to use it.

I think that's a good point. It would be quite easy for us to use or write a simple bit of free software that given a GPX file would display its total distance, time taken etc. If that software was made available to everyone, riders could check it themselves before sending to to validators for er... validation. In theory it should be quicker than checking the times and locations of a set of soggy receipts.

Funnily enough, I have started a few months ago to write a script that goes through my gpx file and says:

• ridden x km
• stopped yy time at zzz
• climbed uuu meters

I haven't talked too much about it as it is not quite finished. I am not a professional programmer and it takes me time but I don't mind giving it away as a starting point.

I have sussed out how to get rid of dubious elevations, finding stops does not work so well!


... or may be jwo can write this in a couple of hours!

[mattc]

As to falsifying, IF anyone cares, I think it would be a good deal more trouble to make a file up with realistically varying speeds along the way, than to fake up receipts.  if someone goes round the whole route at exactly 22.5kph, then I think we might smell a rodent.

The issue is that once someone works out how to do it, it will be automated, and the floodgates may open.

Someone will take pride in 'hacking the system', even if they give not a sod about SRs, championships etc. The classic "spoiling it for everyone".

(Of course if we can use it to increase the UK quota for PBP '11 ... )

With the "old-fashioned" methods it will always be quite a bit of boring work to fake it.

[marcus]

Good luck with this Danial!

I think this is definitely the way forward & as others have said we shouldn't get too hung about the possibility of cheating.

Ian H accepted a tracklog from me to validate one of his perms last year. This wasn't agreed with him in advance - it was because I was stupid enough to leave a zip undone on my saddlebag while I was riding & lost most of my control receipts. However I did still have start & finish receipts which tallied with the tracklog.

[red marley]

Someone will take pride in 'hacking the system', even if they give not a sod about SRs, championships etc. The classic "spoiling it for everyone"

On what basis do you think it more likely that people will hack a false GPX file than, say, write a program to print out realistic looking cashpoint receipts? Why this sudden fear about cheating?

[mattc]

Someone will take pride in 'hacking the system', even if they give not a sod about SRs, championships etc. The classic "spoiling it for everyone"

On what basis do you think it more likely that people will hack a false GPX file than, say, write a program to print out realistic looking cashpoint receipts? Why this sudden fear about cheating?

I should emphasise that I don't think this is going to happen! I was just making the point that e-cheating is a different ball-game to old-fashioned cheating. There could be an avalanche, whereas with 'normal' perms there may well be a few cheats out there as we write, but they will remain in the minority, and noone really cares.

If you techno-whizkids with your new-fangled toys take over the perm scene and win all the awards going, I shan't be gnashing my teeth thinking "They's cheating, ain't they!"

I just think it's  an issue worth considering in setting this up. (Just as cheating has always been considered in the creation of current rules. In fact, why else would we have validation other than by the rider?)

M

(BTW: I reckon producing fake receipts would be harder and/or easier to spot than fake GPX files, but it's just a hunch.)

[JJ]

Well, maybe you're right and maybe I am, but Oh the prospect of a DIY with controls at places where you would have put infos into a calendar event, and even maybe couldn't have found one, and not having to worry about whether there's a cashpoint by Trumpton fire station.  I'm off to design a 200 that goes round all the best tea rooms in Suffolk and doesn't go near the Haverhill road. What about riding from Looe to Penzance without having to go through Truro?

I can hardly contain myself.

[Phixie]

Excellent Danial. Good luck with the proposal.

 The whole system is built on trust anyway. For example, use of Info controls on perms, manual annotation of receipts where the till time is wrong or has no indication of the location, using postmarks on postcards, the fact I can get Fixed Wheel Points for a perm that no-one else witnesses etc. etc.

Long may we continue to rely on trust, and lets not put new methods of route identification under greater scrutiny than older ones.

Just out of interest, how many times at the end of a Calendar ride when you produce your FWC card has the finish controller wanted to check your machine?  Same as the number of fingers on a clenched fist, I'll wager.

[border-rider]

It happened to me once in 7 years and a lot of km.

[Manotea]

I'm not convinced you know. Yes tracklogs support continuous riding with no stopping at controls but I like controls. The fact that every few hours you need to take moment or several to get a control and take a break is a good thing. Its what makes audax what it is, and is a large part of teh difference between audax and racing, if you like.

What are the upsides? They remove the problem of seeking out controls but in practice how often is this a problem? Why not simply allow riders to submit timestamped photos as proof of evidence? Digital phots can be submitted electronically just as easily as tracklogs and it could be said depending on teh required subject matter would be harder to fake.

What are the downsides? Well, for a start, tracklogs are rarely clean. One of my jobs when I complete a ride is to strip out all the doubling backs and off routings that inevitably occur, and lace together umpteen tracksegments which make up the route (tracklogs get segmented when you recalc a route or switch a unit off as I do at controls to save power), filter down the tracklog to an approproiate samplying rate and so on. Its not credible this would be done by those who would submit tracklogs to any common standard. Even with clever scripts I cannot see processing tracks saving much time for org or rider.

Personally I'd like to see a DIY routes published in some way so that routes can be seen made up of control segments (A_B xkm, B_C, ykm, etc.). This information sharing would provide riders with information and inspiration on valid routes, and provide a handy lookup table for inter control distances for use by riders and orgs alike. This is similar but a different purpose/requirement to the system for documenting route segments which FF initiated.

Well, those are my thoughts....

PS, do I ride DIYs? yes I do. do I sometimes find myself well over distance because of the difficulty getting controls? yes I do. do I spend a chunk a time researching potential controls for rides? yes I do. Its all part of the fun...

[toontra]

PS, do I ride DIYs? yes I do. do I sometimes find myself well over distance because of the difficulty getting controls? yes I do. do I spend a chunk a time researching potential controls for rides? yes I do. Its all part of the fun...

The tracklog verification wouldn't be compulsory - you could still have your fun if you choose.

[DanialW]

PS, do I ride DIYs? yes I do. do I sometimes find myself well over distance because of the difficulty getting controls? yes I do. do I spend a chunk a time researching potential controls for rides? yes I do. Its all part of the fun...

You know, it's the "now I don't have to ride 30km overdistance" that I find weakest.

I'm with you on this Manotea; it's all part of the fun. I like cycling "over" distance. It's another hour out on  my bike.

[red marley]

But it's not very "self sufficient" though is it, to rely on others to stamp our cards or provide receipts for us?

One of the big advantages of allowing GPS (or timestamped photos for that matter) would be to allow us to ride some of the calendar or perm routes without the need to resort perm organisers constructing info controls, or replacing infos with diversions to settlements that have cashpoints etc.

I have a favourite DIY perm that I can do from home that takes me through rural Essex. Except I can't currently do it on a Sunday because it relies upon a post office that closes for the weekend on Saturday afternoon. I have another 200 that I have to do in less than 10 hours with a 6am start because the garage at the end of the ride closes at 4pm. A more flexible attitude to proof-of-passage would open up new opportunities for DIY Audaxes currently denied us.

[Manotea]

But it's not very "self sufficient" though is it, to rely on others to stamp our cards or provide receipts for us?

Sounds like an arguement against organised controls....

One of the big advantages of allowing GPS (or timestamped photos for that matter) would be to allow us to ride some of the calendar or perm routes without the need to resort perm organisers constructing info controls, or replacing infos with diversions to settlements that have cashpoints etc.

As you say, allowing timestamped photos would solve the problem.

I have a favourite DIY perm that I can do from home that takes me through rural Essex. Except I can't currently do it on a Sunday because it relies upon a post office that closes for the weekend on Saturday afternoon. I have another 200 that I have to do in less than 10 hours with a 6am start because the garage at the end of the ride closes at 4pm. A more flexible attitude to proof-of-passage would open up new opportunities for DIY Audaxes currently denied us.

It cannot be denied. Except does it matter? Does every outing have to be accounted for in AUK ledgers? I passed the rubicon this year when I rode round the little willy and nyctophobic (calendar 100km routes) 'just for fun', though I suspect I'll find a way to claim for extracurricular circuits of 200km+ routes like Anfractuous and Willy Warmer.

'Just Sayin'*

*homage to editon of The Daily Show I watched last night...

[tonyh]

A good discussion, and very interesting even to this rider who will probably remain without a Magic Box. Thanks to Danial for his welcome suggestion/offer.

I think this point is worth another repeat:

another factor to consider is organiser time. The current DIY regs are designed to avoid organisers getting tied in checking and debating routes. If a system doesn't allow me to check a route and bang out an email in 2-3 minutes, I'm not going to use it.

... and I would hate you to find yourself using it!

I like cycling "over" distance

So do I, but it can put me close to time limits. Which can be fun; but it is often a great relief to know that there's a good route for the next leg which is NOT over-distance. Hence the interest in anything which makes such routes more available.

[Hot Flatus]

I think this is a great idea and one that has ocurred to me one every audax I have done with a gps on the bike where I've forgotten to look out for info controls. I'd always assumed that the luddite lobby within the audax community would keep it suppressed.

I think the cheating aspect is not important for all the reasons others have given .  If you think it is, you probably need to stop doing audaxes  

[Ian H]

But it's not very "self sufficient" though is it, to rely on others to stamp our cards or provide receipts for us?

Self-sufficiency includes using facilities available on the route rather than having stuff ferried around ahead of you. As well as coping if the shop is shut.