Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => Health & Fitness => Topic started by: Polar Bear on 19 February, 2021, 08:42:39 am
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It's quite the problem in the current circumstances. Shoes have to fit properly and feel right. Even when you can go to a shop and try on a few pairs it is nigh on iimpossible to really know because an hour on the road tells you so much more than jogging up and down the shop a few times.
On top of that I have wider than average feet which makes shoe selection significantly limited. Some brands are just narrow, some have a few models in wider fittings.
I tend to be a neutral runner which is also an issue because there are neutral, pronation and supination shoes and shoes with various levels of drop between heel and toe.
Pre-covid I visited a shop in Brum. They had perhaps four brands on the shelves and one, yes one pair of wide shoes which I came away with. Fortunately that brand continues to offer a wide version and I have been buying their shoes ever since. Problem is, I don't know if I am getting the most suitable shoes for my needs.
How do other runners choose their shoes?
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Once I have found some I like I buy several pairs the following year once they are cheaper. I am down to my last unopened box of 2014s though.
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Trial and error.
It is very much like learning about bike fit except that each lesson costs about £100. At the moment I'm just accepting this as an equipment set up cost. I enjoy running possibly more than cycling, and last year I spent £4.5k on a bike. A few pairs of shoes are neither here not there.
This month's lesson was about heel drop, the discovery that it exists and that it may well matter hugely for me. Might have a barely used pair of Hokas up for sale soon.
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Davef: yes, I tend to do something similar. Having a wide foot though I find results in rarity value and I can usually find the odd pair for at most 20% off. The covid factor has resulted in rocking horse poo being more ready available than the particular shoes that I "like" though. I say "like" because I really have no idea of what else would work for me.
In the good old days (the eighties and nineties) I could pop along to my local specialist running shop and spend a chatty, happy hour trying on more than a dozen pairs from all different brands. Those shops seem to have disappeared in the main and the big retailers seem to have only two or three brands despite the fact that there are so many more brands out there now than there were way back when.
Flatus: yeah, I made a mistake with a pair of Asics when I was trying to get back running three or four years back. They were just too small across the toe box and I had to admit defeat with them.. I really felt that at the time because money was very very tight. That hurt me a great deal.
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Yes, there’s a high degree of trial and error. However, some useful pointers are:
- what little good public research exists suggests that comfort (when running) is the best indicator of whether they work for you. Less comfortable = more likelihood of injury
- cushioning is largely overrated, as in more or less is not usually critical. We adapt our stride to harder and softer shoes - go back to comfort as your deciding factor.
- heel to toe drop can matter - I’m largely a mid/forefoot striker and don’t like big traditional drop shoes. But everyone is different. Realistically, someone who has only walked around in ordinary shoes or run a bit in traffic shoes will load their Achilles more in low drop shoes and that can lead to injury. So a transition period may be necessary if you find you prefer low drop shoes. Google minimalist running to find stories of people with knackered Achilles’ tendons as a consequence of rushing at this:(
- you might be sensitive to shoes that have the wrong sort of ‘control’. Anecdote again, but I can’t run in ‘anti-pronation’ shoes with getting shin splint type pain in a few days. I think it’s because the wedges etc muck up my natural gait and put different loads through my lower leg. Easily solved for me by buying neutral shoes that I find comfy.
With all that said, it’s still a bit suck it and see I’m afraid.
Mike
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Davef: yes, I tend to do something similar. Having a wide foot though I find results in rarity value and I can usually find the odd pair for at most 20% off. The covid factor has resulted in rocking horse poo being more ready available than the particular shoes that I "like" though. I say "like" because I really have no idea of what else would work for me.
In the good old days (the eighties and nineties) I could pop along to my local specialist running shop and spend a chatty, happy hour trying on more than a dozen pairs from all different brands. Those shops seem to have disappeared in the main and the big retailers seem to have only two or three brands despite the fact that there are so many more brands out there now than there were way back when.
Flatus: yeah, I made a mistake with a pair of Asics when I was trying to get back running three or four years back. They were just too small across the toe box and I had to admit defeat with them.. I really felt that at the time because money was very very tight. That hurt me a great deal.
I just sold two pairs of barely used running shoes on eBay as they were too narrow across the toe box. Both Hoka and alleged UK size 11. Both a bit small.
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In the old times, going to a proper running shop and getting advice. Once you know if your form (e.g. front foot, heel strike), whether you have pronation and then foot size/shape (measured rather than the size shoe you've always had), it knocks about 75% of the range out. In a shop, you can knock that in half because half will be an instant 'no' as soon as you've done the laces up. Some shops will have a treadmill to try the shoes (or for gait analysis), some let you run them outside the shop a bit. I've bought from shops where you can bring them back having worn them for quite a long time. Personally I find that if I find them ok for a few hundred metres then even if they start to become uncomfortable at distance, they will wear in. I'd never buy a pair of shoes and expect to be able to run more than 5-8km on the first 10 outings.
At the moment, I've bought the exact same shoe as I previously had. Some models come in 'standard' and 'wide' fit - unfortunately some online retailers don't specify which one they have, so you can end up with the narrower version of the shoe that would fit in the wide fit.
Most brands that have width fittings will specify. Innov8 have fittings 1-5 (5 is widest) and state on their website which fit each model is. Some brands are known for being wide or narrow - for example, generally Salomon are a narrow fit, Altras are a wider fit. I know there's no point in looking at the Salomon range. I also need a zero drop shoe as I'm a front-foot runner (my footprints don't have heels at all). Knowing this massively narrows down what I'm looking at online. I also know a lot of other runners, so can get recommendations for what is a good shoe for people like me based on terrain. After that, it's a bit trial & error. My biggest problem is finding off-road shoes that a good fit and have good grip on multi-terrain. The terrain here is fairly extreme, simultaneously muddy and rocky, but with road sections between.
I find that I can get away with a wider range of off-road shoes than on-road shoes. I can break in most off-road shoes provided they generally fit - there's a lot more give. Road shoes, not so much. If they aren't right, I'll be heading toward injury.
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Pre-covid I visited a shop in Brum. They had perhaps four brands on the shelves and one, yes one pair of wide shoes which I came away with. Fortunately that brand continues to offer a wide version and I have been buying their shoes ever since.
What brand are you referring to?
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Pre-covid I visited a shop in Brum. They had perhaps four brands on the shelves and one, yes one pair of wide shoes which I came away with. Fortunately that brand continues to offer a wide version and I have been buying their shoes ever since.
What brand are you referring to?
Brooks. I currently buy their 2E width fitting. There are three shoes in their range which I currently use, these being the Ghost, Glycerin and Cascadia. The first two are neutral shoes and the latter a trail shoe. They tend to come in limited colour options within the range too but that doesn't bother me except if they suddenly decide to go all pale and trendy on me.
It is quite difficult to find discounts on the 2E
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Trial and error.
It is very much like learning about bike fit except that each lesson costs about £100. At the moment I'm just accepting this as an equipment set up cost. I enjoy running possibly more than cycling, and last year I spent £4.5k on a bike. A few pairs of shoes are neither here not there.
This month's lesson was about heel drop, the discovery that it exists and that it may well matter hugely for me. Might have a barely used pair of Hokas up for sale soon.
If you are happy to spend some money ... https://profeet.co.uk/sports/3d-motion-lab/
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Wide toe box (foot-shaped, not shoe-shaped - pointy shoes are the work of the devil :hand:) and zero-drop. I mainly use Altras.
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If you buy from Hoka themselves they do a 30 day no quibble return even after running in them. I thought I would get a pair of lighter road shoes for the winter when our fields are just too wet (damage to the field rather than to me). I tried them on and they felt Ok, so I went out for a run. Got back after 10k and they had rubbed my heels raw over the achilles insertion. I returned them and got a full refund.
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Since the Hokas arrived I have been getting real stiffness in the Achilles insertion point after running. I've never had this before. But I have also been doing longer runs. I'm hoping it is the shoes rather than my body kacking out on me, especially because a nice pair of Nike Pegasus Trails have just arrived :P I'm off out to try them in a minute. This will go one of two ways
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Since the Hokas arrived I have been getting real stiffness in the Achilles insertion point after running. I've never had this before. But I have also been doing longer runs. I'm hoping it is the shoes rather than my body kacking out on me, especially because a nice pair of Nike Pegasus Trails have just arrived :P I'm off out to try them in a minute. This will go one of two ways
The bit in bold might be your problem. Are you doing longer runs than usual on a brand new pair of shoes? That's a recipe for disaster, especially if you've moved from high/moderate drop to low/zero drop shoes. The advice on moving to zero drop is always to reduce the distance for a little while to get your body used to the different positioning.
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The Hokas aren't zero drop, but they are 4mm drop, whereas my road shoes are (I think) 10mm. So a big change.
Regardless, I think you are probably correct and thankyou for the advice! The problems started with the new shoes, and being an inexperienced runner didn't even know heel drop was a thing. What is certain is that I can't continue doing longer runs in the Hokas or I will do lasting damage.
Annoyingly the new Nike shoes that have just arrived are wrongly labelled, so whilst the box and the tongue label both say 8.5 uk, the tongue also says US 11. Which means the shoes are actually 10.5 uk ::-) More of a headache for the supplier than for me as they will now have to go through their entire stock.
I think I will try a shorter run in my Nike road shoes today and see what happens, then try a 10 miler in them on Sunday. If no issues then probably fair to say its the Hokas and not me. If not then I'll have to think again.
The weird thing about running in the Hokas is that when I start off (slowly) they aren't comfortable and I can feel them sort of stressing my feet, but when I'm warmed up fully and start running fast (with a different gait) they feel OK.
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Just had to look at my old ones to check. They're Saucony 'run any where'*
Chosen because the tread pattern on the sole can keep you upright in anything! And let's face it, off-road it's never exactly bone dry – mostly. And most of what I do (when I can drag myself out) is off-road.
* yes, the text is laid out like that!
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And so to what triggered my musings earlier. A parcel has just arrived. It is a pair of shoes in a later though not the current version of one of the pairs which I use at the moment. I have been scouring the interwebs for similar at a discount but over the past few months there have been none. 20% off is good for these wide fitting shoes and even better, a pair of UK size 9's: so rare.
So, a quick check to ensure that they are fit for purpose and then into the wardrobe for when they are needed.
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https://profeet.co.uk/sports/3d-motion-lab/ (https://profeet.co.uk/sports/3d-motion-lab/)
London-based. :( However, I do like the look of Altras, and their natural foot-shaping shoes.
There is a running shop a couple of miles away that sell the brand. Will visit it when lockdown
is over. :thumbsup:
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Just popped out for a 5k wearing my old road shoes. Admittedly not 10k or 15k as per last 2 runs, but have come back with zero stiffness or discomfort in heels.
Looks like my feet don't like low heel drop.
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https://profeet.co.uk/sports/3d-motion-lab/ (https://profeet.co.uk/sports/3d-motion-lab/)
London-based. :( However, I do like the look of Altras, and their natural foot-shaping shoes.
There is a running shop a couple of miles away that sell the brand. Will visit it when lockdown
is over. :thumbsup:
I went an analysis with profeet back in 2015 and thought they were good. I went through a a few months of wearing “barefoot” shoes when not running in order to strengthen my natural shock absorbing.
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https://profeet.co.uk/sports/3d-motion-lab/ (https://profeet.co.uk/sports/3d-motion-lab/)
London-based. :( However, I do like the look of Altras, and their natural foot-shaping shoes.
There is a running shop a couple of miles away that sell the brand. Will visit it when lockdown
is over. :thumbsup:
I went an analysis with profeet back in 2015 and thought they were good. I went through a a few months of wearing “barefoot” shoes when not running in order to strengthen my natural shock absorbing.
One of the upsides of the last year is that I haven’t worn shoes since 3 March 2020 - I’ve worn running shoes and walking boots for outside, but have otherwise been actual barefoot:)
I admit to liking my Vibram Five Fingers too
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Except for the very cold days I have been wearing Oofos OOahh slides for the duration indoors. I find them incredibly comfy whether barefoot or with thin woolen socks. I got mine £20 off last March and they've been awesome.
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Well, sportshoes.com are taking their time to deal with this. Took them a day to email me saying that they can email me a prepaid label to return shoes...without actually sending me the prepaid lable I asked for. So that will be a few more days. Then they tell me that if they ascertain that the shoes are wrongly sized they will send me a new pair.
Here are the photos I'd already sent them..
Their "8.5" shoes, next to my 8.5 shoes, and the label with clearly incorrect sizing.
(https://i.ibb.co/PG3zjLL/20210219-115957.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MkW5Svv)
(https://i.ibb.co/6JTTBK3/20210219-115925.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M5tt6zY)
gif it crowd (https://imgbb.com/)
So basically, fuck sportshoes.com.
Not going to use them again. Just went direct with Nike and they gave me an unexpected 25% discount, so I got the goretex version which is £15 more, for £17 less than these ones.
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With EU size 48 I don't get much choice. Having narrow feet doesn't help (A-width fitting). There doesn't seem to be much demand for shoes to fit long narrow feet. However, now my podiatrist makes recommendations, based on what will accommodate the damage done by 30 years or so of not-very well fitting shoes. On the plus side, am back running again.
Cycling shoes are an equal nightmare.
Work shoes I gave up and had two pairs made to measure.
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It sounds like I’ve been lucky with shoes so far. I’ve got high insteps, size 9 and run a bit of road to get to a trail.
First pair were from a shop with a treadmill.
Second from a not fancy shop that came recommended.
Both gave me about 4 pairs to try, and plenty of time to try each. Also I made sure I had a half hour walk to the shop, so my feet had already done that spreading thing.
When the shops reopen I must go and get a spare pair, so I’m not stuck later.
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How realistic are those treadmills? Is actually running up and down the road outside the shop a better 'simulation'?
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If you're used to running on a treadmill, it should be pretty similar to your normal road running style. If you've never run on a treadmill before, you will probably be more worried about falling off, instead of running normally.
Running on the road outside could make the shoes dirty, so probably not allowed.
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I don’t remember being worried about falling off.
I certainly got a longer steadier run than going up and down inside the shop. They also videoed me to see if my gait needed a certain sort of shoe. It didn’t.
A run outside would be nice, but then I’d be buying shoes that didn’t look new. Especially for trail running.
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With EU size 48 I don't get much choice. Having narrow feet doesn't help (A-width fitting). There doesn't seem to be much demand for shoes to fit long narrow feet. However, now my podiatrist makes recommendations, based on what will accommodate the damage done by 30 years or so of not-very well fitting shoes. On the plus side, am back running again.
Cycling shoes are an equal nightmare.
Work shoes I gave up and had two pairs made to measure.
Addidas then?
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I've certainly seen people running up and down the road outside my nearest running shop. Which is conveniently on a hill, so you get to literally go up and down. I don't know if they have a treadmill but I know two others nearby do. It never occurred me to you might fall off! Presumably, as there are sides and it would be a bit silly to run off the front, you could only really fall off the back, in which case hopefully a member of staff would stop the machine (or else there's an emergency stop button!)
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I've certainly seen people running up and down the road outside my nearest running shop. Which is conveniently on a hill, so you get to literally go up and down. I don't know if they have a treadmill but I know two others nearby do. It never occurred me to you might fall off! Presumably, as there are sides and it would be a bit silly to run off the front, you could only really fall off the back, in which case hopefully a member of staff would stop the machine (or else there's an emergency stop button!)
Always hates treadmills, maybe because I associate them with VO2max testing, but running off the front was a real problem for me. At least patting the plastic edge with my toes as the physiologist wound up the incline
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Useful and timely thread, just discovered holes in both my shoes! I'm new to this so clueless as to what to buy and how to buy. So the advice is really useful.
Last pair were from Decathlon but never fitted that well. I've noted what has been suggested so far, any other brands/models to go for for wide feet? Or any recommended online retailers who will allow me to select wider fittings? Looking for trail running shoes.
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Online you can return if it doesn’t fit, but you want an easy experience. Hoka allow returns after up to 30 days. Wiggle allow returns if they’re not used - you can try on of course. There are lots of other suppliers, but someone here has a recent poor experience with Sportshoes
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Research Nike's birthday 25% discount from Nike online, then use a cashbike site like topcashback for an extra few % off.
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Useful and timely thread, just discovered holes in both my shoes! I'm new to this so clueless as to what to buy and how to buy. So the advice is really useful.
Last pair were from Decathlon but never fitted that well. I've noted what has been suggested so far, any other brands/models to go for for wide feet? Or any recommended online retailers who will allow me to select wider fittings? Looking for trail running shoes.
I think someone upthread said that Salomon were considered narrow.
I have pretty wide feet ( I need to get my ski boots heat-moulded ), and have not had width issues with my Salomon Speedcross 4 and 5 trail shoes, and I find them very good but I don't have much experience of other brands. Perhaps it's just the fact that these shoes are soft enough that they just stretch to my feet, unlike ski boots. <shrug>.
I'm using them on a wide range of terrain: Muddy tracks, mountain paths, slick rock, steep rugged terrain, snow and ice, and the paved sections that will usually be there too.
They seem to perform best in softer conditions where the tread gets some purchase.
The tread does nothing to help on slick rock or ice.
I'd say my Brook road shoes have better grip on wet slick rock or pavement.
Nothing but spikes and/or extreme care help on ice.
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I've bought a few things from Sportsshoes, no problems.
Start Fitness are also good.
Pay with PayPal, then you can claim a refund of the return postage if necessary.
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Another vote for Startfitness. I think my feet may be slightly wider than average and for trail running I have Saucony Peregrine 8? In goretex - I’ve run through all kinds of muck over the winter and I’m very happy with them. I have a summer equivalent that will get a proper test this year.
For the road I quite like Asics. I’ve also noticed that the length of a shoe on the sizing guides is a good way for me to get the correct size.
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Thanks all. Not easy to search for wide fitting shoes and availability not great. Ordered some Brooks from Runners Need and Hoka from them direct. I'll try both and see. (Thanks Mike for the 30 day info about Hoka)
Incidentally spotted at the last minute that cycling uk offer 15% discount at Runners Need.
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My local sports shop Trisports Letchworth fitted me out withe Mizuno Waverunner 10 years ago. I'm size 48. I usually buy a new pair annually so 1000 miles +/- 300 miles. Never had a problem with injuries, fit or quality so I'm inclined to stick with what I know
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Retail outlets are re-opening in 6 weeks so this will soon become redundant, but I've just realised that Nike (if you take up their free membership) offer 30 day returns even if you've tried the shoe.
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Just scored a pair of the Brooks wide sboes that I use at 30% off. For the normal widths that's a pretty poor discount but for the wide version (mens labelled as width 2E) it's the biggest discount that I've had for a long time.
With my current two pairs coming up to 2/3rds of life I now have two pairs to replace them. That's more than another year of running unless my mileage goes up if I decide to try for a marathon for instance. At present I am running about 110km per month with close to a quarter of that done wearing my third active pair, a pair of trail shoes.
It will be nice to get out and try other brands on in due course but Brooks 2E is currently a very nice fit and they work very well for me. I have been fortunate enough to stay supplied throughout the pandemic.
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Just scored a pair of the Brooks wide sboes that I use at 30% off.
Link please. :thumbsup:
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Oh yes, sorry folks. 😊
Just go to the Runners Need website. They have a sale on atm. Just so happens that they shoes I wanted were available on sale. 🙂🙃🙂🙃🙂
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After a couple of worrying emails implying that my shoes might never materialise, materialise they have.
As I said upthread, I now have shoe security for the next 12 months plus. Given how much I find running helps with my state of mind which has been massively hit in the past few years I feel a small level of comfort knowing that I have the shoes and clothes to run for many months. With a bit of judicious use (doing more trail running wearing my trail shoes) I might be able to eek out these shoes until my 60th birthday and thus be relieved of my crapita pension drawdown worries.
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The expo at the Athens marathon, when Mrs Syd ran it a few years ago, had a company there carrying out an analysis and recommending shoe fit.
At the time I’d just started running and was having problems with the Asics shoes I’d chosen so gave it a go. Recommendation came out as Brooks Adrenaline GTS and I’ve ran in them since.
Disappointing thing is they have tweaked something in their more recent versions and they no longer suit. I’ve one new pair left of the older version before I need to look again.
For trail running I use Salomon shoes.
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I used to run Salomons but with dodgy toes now use Hoka as they look after the toes better. Based on my time in the Hampshire Hoppit, am back to about the same speed as before foot troubles. My wife tried a pair and they didn't fit, but they processed the return immediately.
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One of the things about the Hoka.eu site is that you can actually run in them for 30 days and still return them. I had a pair of their road shoes which felt Ok in the house but rubbed on a run and I sent them back for a full refund.
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One of the things about the Hoka.eu site is that you can actually run in them for 30 days and still return them. I had a pair of their road shoes which felt Ok in the house but rubbed on a run and I sent them back for a full refund.
https://www (https://www).hoka.eu/home.html
Obviously not the one you were referring to.
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One of the things about the Hoka.eu site is that you can actually run in them for 30 days and still return them. I had a pair of their road shoes which felt Ok in the house but rubbed on a run and I sent them back for a full refund.
https://www (https://www).hoka.eu/home.html
Obviously not the one you were referring to.
That one is far more interesting.
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Ordered a pair of Hoka Clifton 7s today, direct from Hoka EU, less than £90, seemed rude not to.
Not sure if you have to be on their mailing list to get the deal ?
And, another vote for Brooks Ghost 12 in the wide fit. Seems to have resolved a toe issue I was experiencing (managed my first marathon in reasonable comfort).
I think I’m now well entrenched in the n+1 world of running shoes (where n is MUCH larger than number of bikes !)
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I ordered Hoka Clifton Edges last week for 160 Euro but I sent them back as they definitely didn’t fit as well as my previous Challenger ATR.
In the end I ended up ordering another pair of Challenger ATR as I find them absolutely brilliant. They are for trails rather than road and I do 90% on the road but I didn’t want to spend ages sending shoes back and forth to find the right ones. there aren’t any shops round here that stock them for me to try, plus my size at 42 2/3 is right at the top end of the ladies so rarely stocked.
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Hope they do the job AH.
I have stuck with iterations of the Brooks wide shoes simply because they fit me properly, don't give me any foot issues whilst running and seem to last for at least 600kms which is acceptable if not great. I still use a retired pair for walking and they are doing a fine job.
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my size at 42 2/3 is right at the top end of the ladies so rarely stocked.
Do you need a ladies shoe? I always wear 'mens'.
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my size at 42 2/3 is right at the top end of the ladies so rarely stocked.
Do you need a ladies shoe? I always wear 'mens'.
Not really but I am going through a phase of liking lady colours.
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I bought a pair of Altra Guide Rail Paradigm 5 in size 11. I was going to be charged £145, but the sales assistant gave me a discount that brought it down to £125. :thumbsup: I did try a couple of other Altra running shoes in size 10 and 11, but the width wasn't to my liking. I tried on the Guide Rail Paradigm 5 and liked the sensation I felt in my (extremely wide) feet. :thumbsup:
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Following up the helpful advice I received here in Feb regarding running shoes for (very) wide feet:
1. The trail running shoes I bought from Decathlon in the autumn were very good but both split across the top after less than 100 miles. This might be because they were too tight, they certainly weren't comfortable. Anyway they fell apart but Decathlon would not refund
2. Following the advice here I ordered some wide Hoka and wide Brooks Cascadia in Feb. I kept only the Brooks which were marginally more comfortable. After 6 months of little running, again less than 100 miles I have given up on the Brooks. They were still a little too tight on the width so not 100% comfortable. But one of the inside seams rode up and caused blisters. To their credit, Runners World have taken them back and refunded.
3. I discovered that Hoka do extra wide fittings :thumbsup: only in one style as far as I can see so have ordered the Bondi 7. A few miles in, these seem promising so far but no idea if they'll last or survive the winter as they are not trail shoes (most of my running is off road)
Now that shops are open again I may venture in at some point and get some advice and try some on but options seem pretty limited. Sharing this in case anyone is in a similar predicament!