Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Freewheeling => Racing => Topic started by: rogerzilla on 20 July, 2012, 06:43:57 pm
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These aren't in any order, by the way.
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Teethgrinder, natch. But, after him, maybe Beryl Burton. ;)
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Where, pray, is Charlotte?
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Is the next poll about whether Campag is better than Shimano? ;)
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The Greatest Of All Time probably hasn't even been born yet, or, due to a strange twist of fate has spent their entire life doing something completely different to cycling.
Just to be different, I'll nominate Gino Bartali - not for his palmares, but for what he did during the six-year gap in his racing career.
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gino_Bartali#Bartali_in_wartime
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Can we have two votes please Rog? I wanted to vote Burton and Merckx.
I voted Beryl.
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Does Burton refer to Beryl, Maurice, or Germaine?
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Roger De Vlaeminck
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Does Burton refer to Beryl, Maurice, or Germaine?
Beryl. Not Richard.
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If this poll is rerun in about 20 years time, I think I'd be voting for Germain.
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Teethgrinder. Then bobb.
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Merckx Merckx Merckx. Or possibly Coppi. With Sir Chris Hoy and Mrs Beryl Burton as close seconds.
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Jeannie Longo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeannie_Longo)? Surely the most extensive palmares - 13 World Championships, in road, TT and track, with several other medals, and a silver in mountain biking; four Olympic medals in seven Games; 3 Tours Feminins; Hour record.
I know there was an EPO scandal concerning her husband earlier this year, but most of the cyclists in the list took drugs.
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I voted Merckx. Great cyclist, and always the first name that springs to mind when anyone says 'greatest cyclist...'. Also, I have one of these (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/Minitar1/Dg/DSCF0004-1.jpg).
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Indurain for me. I was too young to appreciate Merckx and my Dad's explanation of why Merckx was winning even though he hadn't won the stage thoroughly confused me. More to the point I loved Mig's understated (not _boring_) way of turning up the heat.
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Merckx obviously but I've still voted for our Beryl :)
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I don't know enough about Merckx; Armstrong hugely impressed me; Cippolini should be on the list for the entertainment he brought; but Teethgrinder gets my vote. His incredible
madness endurance deserves the recognition.
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Easy answer: Merckx, no one else comes close. A more interesting question is who is the second or the top five. I'd go for Hinault, followed closely by Coppi and Anquetil.
Re: Longo and Beryl Burton, women's racing is hardly competitive, is it? especially in the past.
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The Greatest Of All Time probably hasn't even been born yet, or, due to a strange twist of fate has spent their entire life doing something completely different to cycling.
Just to be different, I'll nominate Gino Bartali - not for his palmares, but for what he did during the six-year gap in his racing career.
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gino_Bartali#Bartali_in_wartime
Impressive and noble stuff indeed. Though judged on road cycle racing results only (as per OP), Merckx gets my vote.
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Re: Longo and Beryl Burton, women's racing is hardly competitive, is it? especially in the past.
I'll get the feminazis on you, pissant.
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Philippe Thys. Love the old timers. Mammoth stages and they had to take care of repairs themselves. And still impressive average speeds.
Thys was the first to win 3 Tours de France: 1913, 1914 and 1920. He would have won more if it hadn't been for the First World War.
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Re: Longo and Beryl Burton, women's racing is hardly competitive, is it? especially in the past.
Burton held the 12hr TT record for any cyclist male or female, so that probably counts for something.
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Merkcx wasn't called Le Cannibale for nothing. We shan't see his like again.
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I have a soft spot for Jean Robic because he was obviously barking mad.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3596/3883968317_fc5f913808.jpg)
And Eros Poli for the greatest TdF stage win ever, Cipollini's 6'4" windbreak stealing the Ventoux from the climbers. His all-day lone breakaway was caught on the previous stage, so he decided to do it again to prove a point, and built up enough of a lead on the flat to get over the top without being caught. He came third from last on GC.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxTnLaH3gVA
Note the cotton cap with the top cut out to make an eyeshade. Poli used to cut himself a new one every morning.
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coppi merckx coppi merckx coppi merckx coppi merckx coppi merckx coppi merckx coppi merckx coppi merckx coppi merckx
coppi, wins it on style points and allowances made for interrupted career…
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Bartali. Won the tour both before the war and ten years after. His record during the war which only became known quite recently and after his death shows that he was seriously heroic in the absolute sense as well as on the bike.
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Other. Being jure robic.
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Obree.
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Roger De Vlaeminck
Coolest cyclist ever - Gios - Campag - Brooklyn
I have to go for Merckx as the greatest tho'
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Merckx, easy. If you were to qualify "greatest cyclist" in any way then it'd be someone else, but Merckx was the complete package. No cyclist before or since has even come close to his all-encompassing dominance.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sziZ6PejrfM
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From my era, Big Mig, even though I wasnt a fan.
Ever then its Merckx
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I'm bigging up Maitre Jacques (Anquetil - alright, it's Merckx really) when I remember how he won the Criterium Du Dauphiné stage race one afternoon, then after speaking to the press for a couple of hours, caught a plane to Bordeaux, ate a chicken with a few glasses of champagne on the flight, had a bit of a snooze and then set off at silly o'oclock the next morning to win the 370 mile Bordeaux-Paris race. Bonkers. ISTR he also once did a 100km TT in around 2 hours in 1960. Alright, so he was partial to a bit of whizz, but as it was pretty much a level playing field back then drugs-wise, I can sort of forgive him.
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Binda, the only one who actually got paid not to race because he killed the excitement; also probably the greatest cyclist to abandon the TdF, did 2 stages IIRC.
Bartali, of course.
and Arthur Lynton (who says dodgy trainers, drugs and cycle racing don't mix!)
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Marianne Vos.
Dominant across disciplines throughout her whole career. And still going strong.
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LeMond doesn't get the recognition he probably deserves. He would very likely have won five Tours de France, had he been able to ride in 1987 and 1988. I think his reputation was tarnished because he kept going for four declining years instead of retiring at the top, in 1990.
Remember, this was the guy who recorded probably the highest VO2 max of any professional cyclist, ever.
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LeMond doesn't get the recognition he probably deserves. He would very likely have won five Tours de France, had he been able to ride in 1987 and 1988. I think his reputation was tarnished because he kept going for four declining years instead of retiring at the top, in 1990.
Remember, this was the guy who recorded probably the highest VO2 max of any professional cyclist, ever.
Some justice in my eyes for a guy who gets his rocks off by going hunting. Had he been less trigger happy and not been on a hunting trip, he might have won more titles :demon:
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It was turkey hunting, so not exactly depleting the biodiversity of north America. ISWYM though.
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Is the next poll about whether Campag is better than Shimano? ;)
Phew! Almost missed that one. Shimano over that Italian made packaged stuff everytime.
Where's the smiley that means 'runs away with pin in teeth'?
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LeMond doesn't get the recognition he probably deserves. He would very likely have won five Tours de France, had he been able to ride in 1987 and 1988. I think his reputation was tarnished because he kept going for four declining years instead of retiring at the top, in 1990.
Remember, this was the guy who recorded probably the highest VO2 max of any professional cyclist, ever.
Though with the benefit of hindsight, you have to ask yourself how much of his decline was down to much of the rest of the peloton being juiced up to the eyeballs on EPO, and how much was due to over-training in an effort to keep up?
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Most of it, IMHO
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Marianne Vos.
Dominant across disciplines throughout her whole career. And still going strong.
'Still'? You make her sound old, but she's only 25. Using Judith Arndt as an example, Vos has 11 years left. (27 if you take Longo!)
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Exactly my point. She's the greatest in my opinion with plenty of miles left to race, on and off-road.
Still. ;D
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LeMond doesn't get the recognition he probably deserves. He would very likely have won five Tours de France, had he been able to ride in 1987 and 1988. I think his reputation was tarnished because he kept going for four declining years instead of retiring at the top, in 1990.
Remember, this was the guy who recorded probably the highest VO2 max of any professional cyclist, ever.
Though with the benefit of hindsight, you have to ask yourself how much of his decline was down to much of the rest of the peloton being juiced up to the eyeballs on EPO, and how much was due to over-training in an effort to keep up?
I'm not up to speed (!) on the personalities involved doping. Are we saying Lemond didn't?
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I don't believe LeMond did dope. He was winning before the EPO era and is vocally anti-doping. There is some history with Armstrong, predictably.
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That's not what he says about you.
That Rogerzilla is some guy. Totally juiced up to the tits, man. He could climb the Eiger in the big ring. Blood like treacle. Makes Riis look like a pussy.
;)
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I don't believe LeMond did dope. He was winning before the EPO era and is vocally anti-doping. There is some history with Armstrong, predictably.
Even the Clinic heavyweights, who would give Joe McCarthy a run for his money when it comes to seeing Reds under the bed dopers in the peloton, consider LeMond to have ridden clean.
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I'd like to think so!
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So... are the yACF Management Committee going to reassign Armstrong's votes? :demon:
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So... are the yACF Management Committee going to reassign Armstrong's votes? :demon:
Probably best to allocate Armstrong's votes to Lemond, a multiple world champ, multiple Tour winner from the USA.
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How do you measure greatness ;)
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I voted Fignon. Maybe not the greatest on a bike but dam good. He is however I think the best racing cyclist at writing about being a great racing cyclist. Some of his stuff is just beautiful.
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Traditionally, I've always answered Merckx to this question, even though he'd retired before I even learned how to ride a bike, so that's based on reputation alone.
However, it was Lemond who really got me interested in cycling. Sure, there were Hinault, Fignon, Kelly, Delgado, Abdoujaparov and Millar around at the same time, and they were all great, but my abiding memories of watching the Tour de France on C4 in that era are of Lemond.
Plus, in light of recent events, I've come to admire him even more as a person, as well as a cyclist.
d.
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Breaking news - you can now change your vote!
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Maurice-Francois Garin....for being the first tour winner and laying the foundations for the greatest bicycle race on the planet :)
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And for taking a train in 1904.
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Very sensible. Bet he didn't do any of that not stopping at cafes nonsense.
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And for taking a train in 1904.
Indeed, proof that cheating even back then was present :)
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Bartali. Won the tour both before the war and ten years after. His record during the war which only became known quite recently and after his death shows that he was seriously heroic in the absolute sense as well as on the bike.
Have voted for Mercx, because of his amazing dominance, BUT...this guy Bartali is a real world hero, and gets my vote too.
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Jeannie Longo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeannie_Longo)
blah blah column inches devoted to men s column inches devoted to women
blah blah last years spoty
blah blah
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What about Bobet, he won three tours during my road racing days.
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Should really have Nicole Cooke on that list. If you look at her career, she's been nearly as impressive as Beryl Burton. Also Jeanie Longo
If you are restricting it to road, then I vote Beryl.
None of the others dominated (road) time trialing as well as road riding as much as her.
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Bartali isn't on the list. His war time activities have already been mentioned - but those make him a great person, possibly the greatest person who was a (professional) cyclist, not the greatest cyclist. I'm torn between Burton and Merckx for my vote - I'd kind of disqualify Burton because she was great at cycling, rather than a great cyclist - unlike the others she didn't make a living from it. But then neither does TG (you might say both live(d) for rather than from cycling) and he's on the list, so...
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Hmm, perhaps we should now add Nicole Cooke to the list?
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Or perhaps we filter the shortlist to exclude anyone who has ever failed a drug test or admitted taking banned performance enhancing substances?
It would be a very short list.
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Should really have Nicole Cooke on that list. If you look at her career, she's been nearly as impressive as Beryl Burton.
I am a Nicole fan but this statement is more ridiculous than anything LA said this week!
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I don't think so at all. Before I made it I looked up their record. Beryl set far more records, true, but Nicole dominated professional road cycling in a way that Beryl didn't, and Beryl wasn't facing the same level of competition.
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I'd put Vos ahead of Cooke...
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I voted Fignon. Maybe not the greatest on a bike but dam good. He is however I think the best racing cyclist at writing about being a great racing cyclist. Some of his stuff is just beautiful.
I'd say that Tim Krabbé is the best racing cyclist to write about cycle racing.
He is also pretty damned good at something else...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/24/Tim_Krabbe_1969.jpg/220px-Tim_Krabbe_1969.jpg)
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I voted Fignon. Maybe not the greatest on a bike but dam good. He is however I think the best racing cyclist at writing about being a great racing cyclist. Some of his stuff is just beautiful.
I'd say that Tim Krabbé is the best racing cyclist to write about cycle racing.
He is also pretty damned good at something else...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/24/Tim_Krabbe_1969.jpg/220px-Tim_Krabbe_1969.jpg)
I presume that you're not referring to his facial topiary skills? ;D
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I don't think so at all. Before I made it I looked up their record. Beryl set far more records, true, but Nicole dominated professional road cycling in a way that Beryl didn't, and Beryl wasn't facing the same level of competition.
Hmmm, BB won 12 national RR champs and 2 Worlds, to NC's 10 national and 1 World. BB would have won more Worlds if not that she was so good that she was usually marked out of the race so much. In addition she managed 5 World track golds. She also once beat me in a 10, something Nicole has not yet managed to do! :-)
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I tried to vote "Other - please state", but didn't get the chance (unless I did something wrong) so would state here, Marianne Vos
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http://road.cc/content/news/95153-gino-bartali-awarded-israels-righteous-among-nations-wartime-activities
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Agree with spesh with bartali, book is excellent read, he did amazing things during the war years
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I would add one comment about Beryl Burton's record, when she was competing in national/international women's road races it was thought that females were not capable of riding long distances or hilly courses. Most road races were comparatively short distances and she was a marked rider. It would have been very interesting to see her compete in current women's events.
Don't forget that she was world champion at the pursuit and also she beat the men's record for 12 hours so she was certainly was an "all rounder", indeed she held the women's Best All Rounder award for a record number of years and I believe the distances involved were 25, 50 and 100 miles, the 12 hour event was only for the men's BAR.
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I voted 'other' for Gino Bartali too. I take on board what was said about being an heroic person but would also point out that all of those heroic exploits also involved riding his bike. Not racing other riders but racing through the night, avoiding being caught etc. That'd spice up an audax. Definitely the greatest cycling hero for me. Thomas Stevens runs him a close second - first man to cycle around the world - on a high wheeler!
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I tried to vote "Other - please state", but didn't get the chance (unless I did something wrong) so would state here, Marianne Vos
+1
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In light of developments since this poll was opened, are people allowed to change their vote? :demon:
I'm still appalled that he got more votes than Lemond even before the revelations, tbh.
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I voted for Eddie but, I think I want to put a shout in for Paul Kimmage.
This shout is in honour of all the cyclists who tried to do it clean but couldn't and then tried to make a noise about it.
Despite getting shouted down, ostracized and generally belittled, Paul stuck to his guns.
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Changing votes might be a tad academic, given the result.
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I know but it's the principle, dammit!
Is it really fair to force those who were duped by Mr Gunderson to wallow in their shame?
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Marshall 'Major' Taylor world champion :thumbsup:
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There is many but what about - Anne Mustoe, set off cycling the world, did it three times, knowing next too nothing about touring and cycling.
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It's hard to get beyond Eddy Merckx, given his long list of wins and the aggressive way he achieved them.
I would have thought Jure Robic would have merited a mention. He's arguably the greatest ultra endurance cyclist of modern times.
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There is many but what about - Anne Mustoe, set off cycling the world, did it three times, knowing next too nothing about touring and cycling.
Interesting one. I suppose it depends on how you define 'great'. From the poll, we seem slanted towards competitive achievements i.e. greatest=best. In my view, it's the right linkage. I personally can't reconcile the "greatest cyclist of all time" being a cycle tourist.
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I think there are some very clear systems you can use:
Olympic gold = stage win at a grand tour.
Tour > Giro > Vuelta (therefore someone who has won multiple grand tours is not as good as someone who has won the same number but only from the Tour)
Classics are better than grand tour stages, but not twice as much.
World Championships are clearly >> National Championships
National Championships mean different things in different countries and frankly the British one is not really something to crow about.
You can only beat the riders you are up against, but still you get bragging rights if you can beat better opposition.
Setting records and being multi-disciplinary is worth bonus points, but is not worth a grand tour.
The only tricky question is whether you should disqualify anyone who we have reason to believe doped.
While I am a big fan of Beryl, Vos and Cooke, none of them are in the top group of riders mentioned in the poll - though Vos and Cooke might get there if you exclude the dopers.
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I think there are some very clear systems you can use:
Clear but arbitrary.
The only tricky question is whether you should disqualify anyone who we have reason to believe doped.
The only sensible answer is no, since greatness often coexists with cheating.
Disagree with you on Burton, who was peerless in a way no other woman or man has been since.
If Froome wins this Tour, we’ll have to start thinking about adding him to these lists.
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Froome can fuck off.
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It's hard to get beyond Eddy Merckx, given his long list of wins and the aggressive way he achieved them.
I would have thought Jure Robic would have merited a mention. He's arguably the greatest ultra endurance cyclist of modern times.
Most career victories by a professional cyclist: 525.
Most stage victories in the Tour de France: 34.
Most stage victories in one Tour de France: 8, in 1970 and 1974 (shared with Charles Pélissier in 1930 and Freddy Maertens in 1976).
Most days with the yellow jersey in the Tour de France: 96.
The only cyclist to have won the general classification, points classification and mountains classification in the same Tour de France (1969).
Most victories in classics: 28.
Most victories in one single classic: 7 (in Milan–San Remo).
Most victories in Grand Tours: 11
In 1972, Eddy Merckx set a new hour record at 49.431 km (30.715 mi)
Chris Froome is clearly a top cyclist but he, like SKY, tend to focus their efforts at a few select races.
Wiggo, despite not winning the TdF repeatedly, stacks up better than Froome (in my opinion) because of his versatility and track achievements. I do feel sorry for Froome though. It's not his fault that his technique is more effective than stylish, or aggressive. He just spins up hills, staring at his power-meter, all elbows and knees, pissing off the French in the process (which is a good thing obviously).
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I vaguely recall a statistic that Eddy Merckx averaged something better than a win a fortnight the whole time he was a professional cyclist. Even including post-Tour crit results, that is an impressive record.
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I think there are some very clear systems you can use:
Clear but arbitrary.
If Froome wins this Tour, we’ll have to start thinking about adding him to these lists.
Arbitrary but also obvious and I don't think anyone would argue that a gold medal in the team pursuit is barely equal to a stage win on the tour.
If Froome wins his 4th he will be in a very select group of riders and would merit a mention - for mine he is already ahead of Wiggo as he has a hat-trick of Tours, while Wiggo has one Tour and then some other less important stuff.
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I'm surprised no one has yet suggested...
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You just did!
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Arbitrary but also obvious and I don't think anyone would argue that a gold medal in the team pursuit is barely equal to a stage win on the tour.
I think you would find takers for that argument, and anyway you would need to come up with precise weightings for each sort of win. It’s not enough to say one win is better than another; we need to know how much better as a ratio. These weightings would have to vary over time and with the (weighted!) quality of the ensemble of the opposition, too. The whole scheme is impracticable (as you probably accept, but it’s fun to talk about).
Merckx won more races in part because he raced more, that being what everyone did in his era. Contador and Quintana recently showed what happens nowadays if you try to race even two grand tours in one season (and practically nothing else). Contador and Quintana are not Merckx, but Merckx’s palmarès would have looked very different if he’d raced today, even assumming his career wasn’t cut short by doping (a reasonable assumption, because doping meant something very different in his day, Armstrong’s day, and today). And yet, he would probably be just as ‘great’ today as in any other era. But even if he wouldn’t be as great today, that shouldn’t diminish his ’60s and ’70s greatness in any way. Greatness has to be judged against the context of the time, with all the physical, professional, moral, and other obligations that entails.
So I think greatness can only be judged by gut feeling. Statistics just contribute to that nebulous feeling.
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Arbitrary but also obvious and I don't think anyone would argue that a gold medal in the team pursuit is barely equal to a stage win on the tour.
I think you would find takers for that argument
Yes, but they would be wrong.*
Merckx had worthwhile opposition in all his races, good racers raced him in every race, some picking their races specifically, and he still beat them.
Frankly it would be more interesting arguing who is second best after Merckx.
*I accept this is inflammatory and there is an element of tong in cheek. But it's still true.
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Sugar tongs probably. :D
Arbitrary but also obvious and I don't think anyone would argue that a gold medal in the team pursuit is barely equal to a stage win on the tour.
I think you would find takers for that argument
Yes, but they would be wrong.*
Merckx had worthwhile opposition in all his races, good racers raced him in every race, some picking their races specifically, and he still beat them.
Frankly it would be more interesting arguing who is second best after Merckx.
*I accept this is inflammatory and there is an element of tong in cheek. But it's still true.
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Barry Hoban was in the ITV4 commentary box for yesterday's stage and most of his reminiscences were about riding in an era totally dominated by Merckx. He didn't seem to resent Merckx's success, that was just the way it was from 1969-1975, and it was a bad time to be anyone else.
In the documentary film "Stars and Watercarriers", Merckx's annual income is quoted, and it's an astonishing sum when adjusted for inflation. He's still supposed to be worth $20m these days. His greatness was recognised at the time; it's not just a hindsight thing.
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His greatness was recognised at the time; it's not just a hindsight thing.
True. I wasn’t around at the time, but the documentaries I’ve seen leave no room for doubt about that, as I’ve noted before. (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=97069.msg2019466#msg2019466)
Victory Journal has a fun comparison of Stars and Watercarriers and my favourite, La course en tête, here. (https://victoryjournal.com/stories/the-cannibal/)
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If we exclude known or suspected dopers we are left with:
Lemond
Fignon (?)
Big mig
Cav
Burton
Tg
Am I being unfair to anyone on the list and should I have excluded anyone from it?
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Take out Fignon and Indurain.
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Take out Fignon and Indurain.
Pretty pointless game, though.
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Only if you take bike racing seriously.
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Take out Fignon and Indurain.
Mig, really?
So, Tg is in with a one in four chance then. Maybe w should find a spot for Cooke and co.
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I still think Obree ranks above any of those. Look at the scale of his physical and technical achievements, and the absence of any kind of support team, and the campaign by the establishment to undermine him. The others merely ticked the 'physical achievement' box, with no technical achievements to speak of. And with Obree's handicaps, how many of them would have won anything at elite level? Obree's vision and his performances changed cycling. He should get a big place in history. The others only had a short spell of success in a narrow field.
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I'd certainly rate the film about the Obree/Boardman rivalry as the best cycling film of all time. But I'm a TTer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIDQH3FeG7Y
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Shouldn't this thread be called "best male cyclist" ??
No option for Marianna vos?
Or Lael Wilcox?
J
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Beryl Burton is there and some of her records stood for decades. She is second in the voting.
Depth of competition might be a consideration?
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I am surprised Bartali has not been shortlisted. He won the Tour in 1938 and again in 1948... it is easy to imagine that in the absence of WW2 he could easily be in the same camp as Merckx, Indurain, Anquetil and Hinault. Likewise, Coppi's career is definitively missing some trophies
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Vos is awesome, but she's no Merckx.
Possibly this would have been more interesting as a poll of "Greatest Cyclist of all time who isn't Merckx".
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I can’t help but wonder if in the future Tadej Pogacar will be in this discussion. Young man has just had a very good spring
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Unlikely as riders now ride a handful of races a year to win.
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Kirkpatrick Macmillan
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Shouldn't this thread be called "best male cyclist" ??
No option for Marianna vos?
Or Lael Wilcox?
J
Or Jeannie Longo?
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Shouldn't this thread be called "best male cyclist" ??
No option for Marianna vos?
Or Lael Wilcox?
J
Or Jeannie Longo?
Longo collected impressive results for ages but a bit too much doping for my liking.
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Kirkpatrick Macmillan
Maybe, if he ever rode a bicycle.
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Kirkpatrick Macmillan
Maybe, if he ever rode a bicycle.
” Legend has it...” etc.