ride dates for permanent and DIY

[frankly frankie]

I'm a duffer on insurance matters but I do know this - you can't insure something retrospectively.  That would be like betting on the Grand National when the horse is in the winner's enclosure.  And AUK's rider and organiser insurance is only valid for the duration of the event (whatever that means). That, as I see it, is why the start date (and time, really) has to be declared and documented in advance.

I'm also fairly sure I'm right in saying that, in the case of Permanents, the insured 'organiser' is AUK itself, and not the named Perm organiser.  (It says this in the AUK Handbook.)  AUK obviously does not have prior knowledge of individual riding dates, so I suppose the 'real world' situation (3peaker) is that, for organiser insurance purposes, none of this matters, the insurers are cool with it.  Remarkable.

However I (if I were an org) would feel a duty of care.  This might take the form of things as described above by 3peaker - provision of parking, provision of up-to-date route information, just generally knowing the rider is 'out there'.  For reasons like these I'd want a start date.

[Billy Weir]

Doesn't apply quite so  much to Perms but I'm sure there are some with common starting points and common controls.

I can think of at least 4 perms (and more beyond) I've done in the past couple of months where I could have decided on route not to stick to my plans and instead do something longer (up to 600 versus the 200 I had planned) or do something shorter (a 100 rather than a 150).  Had I been so minded.  After all, I had the cards at home and I'll be damned if anyone could have figured out the switch.

But I get what AUK is about, unlike sneaky snivelling cheaters who would spoil the fun for everyone.

I won't list them, because knowledge is power and all that...

[Manotea]

However I (if I were an org) would feel a duty of care.  This might take the form of things as described above by 3peaker - provision of parking, provision of up-to-date route information, just generally knowing the rider is 'out there'.  For reasons like these I'd want a start date.

I'm not a perm org but aside from the duty of care thing if I were a perm org it would be simply be nice to know when riders were on the road. It provides a connection between ride and organisor which (IMO) adds to the satisfaction of the organiser (and rider for that matter) in providing the service. Call it 'riding vicariously' if you like!

[mikewigley]

I'm not a perm org but aside from the duty of care thing if I were a perm org it would be simply be nice to know when riders were on the road

Oh dear!  Is it me?  I don't particularly feel I need to know that someone is out there riding one of my Perms.  My responsibility extends to writing or updating a route sheet, perhaps months or years before, and I consider that it's up to the rider to respond to road closures, road changes, the weather, and the multitude of problems we might encounter on the UK road system.  There's nothing I can do about anything that might happen.  Does that make me a bad Organiser?  I like to ride my Perms once a year, just to check things are in place, but I can't even guarantee this.

I'm happy that I ought to record, for insurance purposes, when someone expects to start, and I'll get the completed card later to tell me that they've finished.

Of course, the other side of this is that, once you've actually set out,and subsequently decide to DNF, then you've had your "go" and you need to enter the Perm again to try another day

[Phixie]

May I refer the honourable netizens of this parish to Arrivee 100 (Spring 2008) when I wrote in "Just A Minute",

 "AUKs riding Perms are requested to confirm actual dates to organisers before the start of the ride, if not previously given. (Text, e-mail or voicemail will suffice.)"

To amplify this and give some background, the essential ethos of Audax is the acceptance and meeting of a challenge.  In a case similar to the example Greenbank has detailed, or something like the Middle Road, the advice of intention to ride must be before the start of the ride and include details of which event is being ridden, if the organiser has sent a variety of cards or there can be any doubt.  It is not acceptable to start a 400KM event, say, cut the ride short for any reason and then submit a claim for the 300+ KM actually ridden.  The challenge has not been met, just as a participant in a Calendar event who does not complete the whole route has not succeeded.

Equally, having indicated a 200KM ride, there will be no validation for any additional distance if the rider is on song.  By all means ride the extra distance and hopefully have a great time, but it will not result in extra points.  Similarly, where an organiser offers a choice of distances on their events, it is not possible to change to a longer one.

Trust this explains the situation.

Regards,

RP

[Billy Weir]

I'm not a perm org but aside from the duty of care thing if I were a perm org it would be simply be nice to know when riders were on the road

Oh dear!  Is it me?  I don't particularly feel I need to know that someone is out there riding one of my Perms.

Where members entered some time ago, it can be useful for them to get in touch.  I will usually pass on local information about expected road works, control closures, road conditions etc. if I am aware of them.

[sub55]

I'm not a perm org but aside from the duty of care thing if I were a perm org it would be simply be nice to know when riders were on the road

to reiterate something i said earlier, if an organiser feels there`s a duty of care and needs to know the start date , then surely it is at least as important ,if not more important to notify them as soon as possible on the completion or not as the case maybe.

[sub55]

Despite what ive said earlier , if the rules say i must notify the organiser prior to me starting a perm , i shall do so.
Although up until me reading this thread ,i was unaware of it being a condition.   I know that is no excuse but it is the reality.
Does land  me with a small problem though,  as all my perm cards are from the same promoter . Now i have no doubt , he`s a fine up standing gentleman but does not provide any contact details other than snail mail.
Which is fine by me but how many mins prior to me starting an event am i expected to put the letter in the post box.

On a seperate note , i can see the potential problem regarding riders altering routes , whilst on route in order to maximise their potential year end points score.  But for the vast majority of us , we are not going to get within 100 points as the people at the top of the tree.  validation of a ride is all to do with personal gratification and has little or no implication to anyone else.  So why cheat?

[MercuryKev]

It is not acceptable to start a 400KM event, say, cut the ride short for any reason and then submit a claim for the 300+ KM actually ridden.  The challenge has not been met, just as a participant in a Calendar event who does not complete the whole route has not succeeded.

However, this very situation is now possible through the new Extended Calendar Event process.  You can enter a calendar event and add distance via an ECE entry.  On the day you can ride the calendar event but decide not to do the extended element and your calendar ride is validated.

[Phixie]

Agreed, but none of the ECE will be, which will affect your points total.  I am tempted to suggest that as an ECE is entered to extend a particular Calendar event, then it lapses once the oportunity to extend that one event is past.  That is just my view, which may be too harsh.  In actual fact it is Martin who administers the scheme so it is his word that is the law.

Regards,

RP

[Billy Weir]

May I refer the honourable netizens of this parish to Arrivee 100 (Spring 2008) when I wrote in "Just A Minute",

 "AUKs riding Perms are requested to confirm actual dates to organisers before the start of the ride, if not previously given. (Text, e-mail or voicemail will suffice.)"

Very helpful.  Can I suggest that this (or something tighter) is added to the entry form?

[Billy Weir]

Agreed, but none of the ECE will be, which will affect your points total.  I am tempted to suggest that as an ECE is entered to extend a particular Calendar event, then it lapses once the oportunity to extend that one event is past.  That is just my view, which may be too harsh.  In actual fact it is Martin who administers the scheme so it is his word that is the law.

Regards,

RP

Surely the regulations require that if you notify your intention to ride an ECE, don't notify the ECE organiser before riding that you are backing out of the ECE  and don't submit a completed ECE brevet then both your calendar event and extension are invalidated.  No points from either.  

I will be surprised if Martin or the calendar organiser has any discretion in this.  It boils down to the definition of an event, which is a matter of regulations that applies to all organisers equally.  If ECEs are to be treated as two separate events (in effect) then this strikes me as creating the anomoly pointed out a couple of posts ago.  If riders want that flexibility, they would have to enter a DIY+calendar event.

What is up to Martin is if he requires a new entry fee (and form) to replace the one "not used".

[Phixie]

Very helpful.  Can I suggest that this (or something tighter) is added to the entry form?

I'll happily raise it at the next meeting, but even if approved, it may take some time to appear.  In the meantime perhaps you could add it to your covering letter sent with the Brevet Card and Routesheet.  It may also be worth reminding entrants on the same page to return the completed card within 14 days of completion, if they want it validated.

[Martin]

Surely the regulations require that if you notify your intention to ride an ECE, don't notify the ECE organiser before riding that you are backing out of the ECE  and don't submit a completed ECE brevet then both your calendar event and extension are invalidated.  No points from either

this was discussed at committee level before being rolled out; the calendar event and ECE are separate events with separate entry forms, entry fees and brevet cards, which may be combined on the day (unlike any two other calendar events which will of course not have adjacent start and finish times) to make a combined distance. To impose the "all or nothing" rule (which is not IIRC specifically anywhere in the rules) would defeat the idea of the ECE which is to encourage riders to gain some extra points from a ride they would probably be doing anyway by adding extra distance and avoiding car journeys.

Agreed, but none of the ECE will be, which will affect your points total.  I am tempted to suggest that as an ECE is entered to extend a particular Calendar event, then it lapses once the oportunity to extend that one event is past.  That is just my view, which may be too harsh.  In actual fact it is Martin who administers the scheme so it is his word that is the law.

that is true Phixie; each ECE requires a hand written event specific card; they may not be reused which is reflected in the lower entry fee (although I may consider re-using an otherwise identical card the following year, and did send out free replacement cards for events that were cancelled due to snow; although some of the replacement events were also cancelled  ). In practice very few riders have started the calendar event without the ECE.

[Billy Weir]

Ho hum.  That's a consequence of ECEs that I don't happen to agree with and would wish were not so.  But nothing I'm going to lose sleep over.

[MSeries]

Ho hum.  That's a consequence of ECEs that I don't happen to agree with and would wish were not so.  But nothing I'm going to lose sleep over.

I entered an ECE last year for a ride in January 2010, the calendar event was officially postponed by the organiser and my ECE was carried over to the rerun which I consider fair. The rerun event was not postponed but no one started due to the weather, I set out to ride to it, thus starting my ECE but abandoned after half an hour when the snow was 30mm thick. The calendar was officially run but had 100% DNS ! I was not offered the opportunity to reuse my ECE entry for another event which I think is fair since I decided to abandon. I don't enter ECEs very often, it's not practical in this area, so don't mind losing a couple of pounds. ECEs extend calendar events, so it seems right that once the calendar event has passed the ECE is null and void.

[mattc]

Ho hum.  That's a consequence of ECEs that I don't happen to agree with and would wish were not so.  But nothing I'm going to lose sleep over.

I completely understand your thinking on this, but it was discussed when ECEs were setup. (In my view, as Martin explains, the various pros+cons of the whole issue balance out).

It's a diversion from this current topic, and can be discussed on one of the (several) ECE threads.