Post by: Beardy on 31 January, 2023, 12:28:42 pm
I’ve got a warm homes discount, what ever that is and there’s some payments from the government, a loan I believe1. Looking at the various parts of the bill, there’s the charges for electric and gas separately itemised by month. They’ve added these together as you’d expect and then reduced the total by the four payments of £66 and a further £140 warm homes discount. All fine and dandy, but they’ve also refunded me four payments of £66 each month as they have come into the account which would suggest they’ve double counted it. I think. I might be a bit confused.
1. I thought it was illegal to force a loan on people. I certainly didn’t ask them to lend me any money.
Post by: Polar Bear on 31 January, 2023, 12:43:02 pm
Post by: felstedrider on 31 January, 2023, 01:28:36 pm
Post by: felstedrider on 31 January, 2023, 04:27:19 pm
It's not a loan.
Bit more detail now that I'm not distracted.
Every UK consumer received £400 credit against their bills this Winter, Government funded. It's paid to the energy suppliers as £66-67 a month for 6 months. As it was dashed in a lot of the suppliers couldn't get their systems up to speed to deal with the ad-hoc credit so have chosen to pay it straight back to the consumer. As an example, Ovo take £150 from my account early in the month and then pay me back £67 a couple of days a later. It looks a bit messy but it's a temporary measure for this Winter only. My last statement looked quite similar but the ins and outs reconciled back to my expectations.
The £400 was originally designed as credit for this Winter to be paid back over the next 4-5 years and collected back through energy bills. The £400 remained after the last policy change but the requirement for it to be collected back was removed.
Post by: Beardy on 31 January, 2023, 04:49:00 pm
I’ve also had another look at my bill and I’m sure that they have reduced my total usage charges by the £66/£67 along with the warm house discount and I know that they have refunded these amounts. This does look like they’re applying the money twice to my account nd I’m therefore quite sure they will correct their error later.
The warm house discount is the maximum cost thing isn’t it? Which again I’m mot sure I should be getting because I’m on a ‘welcome’ tariff following EDF picking up our account as a provider of last resort’ after our supplier went bust last summer.
Post by: felstedrider on 31 January, 2023, 05:00:16 pm
I wasn’t aware of the policy change, so thank you for the info felsted.
I’ve also had another look at my bill and I’m sure that they have reduced my total usage charges by the £66/£67 along with the warm house discount and I know that they have refunded these amounts. This does look like they’re applying the money twice to my account nd I’m therefore quite sure they will correct their error later.
The warm house discount is the maximum cost thing isn’t it? Which again I’m mot sure I should be getting because I’m on a ‘welcome’ tariff following EDF picking up our account as a provider of last resort’ after our supplier went bust last summer.
There's 3 things :-
- Price capped to a notional £2,500 pa. This will either appear as a credit or in a reduced consumption charge so maybe not completely obvious.
- £400 one-off credit (OK - 6 instalments). Looks like this is working, but possible double counting.
- Warm home discount. Details here - https://www.gov.uk/the-warm-home-discount-scheme. You can check on the link to see if you should be getting it.
All this changes again from 1st April but the price fixing period is not yet done so we'll need to see where the price cap rolls out and how that compares to current rates.
Post by: felstedrider on 06 February, 2023, 11:51:23 am
"For anyone interested the UK Energy price cap is currently £4,200pa. This is capped at £2,500 by the Gov’t and everyone was also given a £400 rebate on top.
From 1 April it is forecast that the cap will drop to £3,200pa BUT Gov’t cap will increase to £3,000.
With wholesale process dropping further it is currently forecast that the cap will drop to £2,200 from Q3 and into next Winter.
In summary prices will get a bit more expensive from 1 Apr (but usage is lower then), before dropping as we go into next Winter.
*all numbers for an assumed ‘average’ consumer*"
This is room full of energy professionals and quite a few people still don't look at their bills.
Post by: robgul on 06 February, 2023, 01:27:30 pm
This is something I just wrote up internally :-
"For anyone interested the UK Energy price cap is currently £4,200pa. This is capped at £2,500 by the Gov’t and everyone was also given a £400 rebate on top.
From 1 April it is forecast that the cap will drop to £3,200pa BUT Gov’t cap will increase to £3,000.
With wholesale process dropping further it is currently forecast that the cap will drop to £2,200 from Q3 and into next Winter.
In summary prices will get a bit more expensive from 1 Apr (but usage is lower then), before dropping as we go into next Winter.
*all numbers for an assumed ‘average’ consumer*"
This is room full of energy professionals and quite a few people still don't look at their bills.
Do you have the "per kwh" rates for the new cap please?
[I'm trying to work out our likely cost post the end of April when our fixed ends - I have detailed consumption figures, just need to multiply by the cap kwh rates applicable . . . and the s/c]
Post by: felstedrider on 06 February, 2023, 01:32:01 pm
This is something I just wrote up internally :-
"For anyone interested the UK Energy price cap is currently £4,200pa. This is capped at £2,500 by the Gov’t and everyone was also given a £400 rebate on top.
From 1 April it is forecast that the cap will drop to £3,200pa BUT Gov’t cap will increase to £3,000.
With wholesale process dropping further it is currently forecast that the cap will drop to £2,200 from Q3 and into next Winter.
In summary prices will get a bit more expensive from 1 Apr (but usage is lower then), before dropping as we go into next Winter.
*all numbers for an assumed ‘average’ consumer*"
This is room full of energy professionals and quite a few people still don't look at their bills.
Do you have the "per kwh" rates for the new cap please?
[I'm trying to work out our likely cost post the end of April when our fixed ends - I have detailed consumption figures, just need to multiply by the cap kwh rates applicable . . . and the s/c]
It's not finalised yet. Assessment window closes 17th, Ofgem announcement 27th.
Post by: felstedrider on 07 February, 2023, 07:53:09 am
Latest view on cap was released yesterday - £3,338 annualised. Expected unit rates as follows :-
Q2 SC:(£/day) Elec - 0.37, Gas - 0.31
UC: (p/kWh) Elec - 54.14, Gas – 12.65
This is still subject to change as we have another 9 days of wholesale price assessment.
Post by: Edd on 07 February, 2023, 04:04:21 pm
There was more detail than expected.
Latest view on cap was released yesterday - £3,338 annualised. Expected unit rates as follows :-
Q2 SC:(£/day) Elec - 0.37, Gas - 0.31
UC: (p/kWh) Elec - 54.14, Gas – 12.65
This is still subject to change as we have another 9 days of wholesale price assessment.
Interesting, I thought there was pressure on Ofgem to reduce the standing charge. If the numbers above hold, elec would be the same but gas would have gone up again. Does Ofgem have the flexibility to reduce the SC or is it determined by some predetermined formula/agreement, like the energy companies submitting their fixed costs over the last period?
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 07 February, 2023, 05:30:36 pm
Post by: FifeingEejit on 07 February, 2023, 06:51:13 pm
There was more detail than expected.
Latest view on cap was released yesterday - £3,338 annualised. Expected unit rates as follows :-
Q2 SC:(£/day) Elec - 0.37, Gas - 0.31
UC: (p/kWh) Elec - 54.14, Gas – 12.65
This is still subject to change as we have another 9 days of wholesale price assessment.
:o
Currently on
Elec: UR: 33.91p SC: 50.66p
Gas: UR: 10.28p SC: 28.48p
Post by: felstedrider on 07 February, 2023, 08:06:56 pm
There was more detail than expected.
Latest view on cap was released yesterday - £3,338 annualised. Expected unit rates as follows :-
Q2 SC:(£/day) Elec - 0.37, Gas - 0.31
UC: (p/kWh) Elec - 54.14, Gas – 12.65
This is still subject to change as we have another 9 days of wholesale price assessment.
Interesting, I thought there was pressure on Ofgem to reduce the standing charge. If the numbers above hold, elec would be the same but gas would have gone up again. Does Ofgem have the flexibility to reduce the SC or is it determined by some predetermined formula/agreement, like the energy companies submitting their fixed costs over the last period?
Given the allowed gross margin under the price cap formula is sub 2% (1.4% from memory) I suspect the majority of any standing charge increase will be due to pass-through costs. The majority of fixed costs are metering, distribution standing charges and the pass through of the costs caused by other suppliers folding. Bear in mind the numbers above are forecast by an industry consultancy (who I do rate) so it’s not entirely clear what assumptions they are using. I might have more info next week.
Post by: felstedrider on 07 February, 2023, 08:08:59 pm
Eek, that's about double for electricity and triple for gas what my current fix is.
My fix has another 2 years to run. I just need Ovo not to go pop.
I’m still getting the £400 gift but I’ve been donating it to the local food bank as I shouldn’t have got it in the first place.
Post by: phantasmagoriana on 07 February, 2023, 08:17:40 pm
Eek, that's about double for electricity and triple for gas what my current fix is.
It's double my current rates for both. :( Not looking forward to my fix ending later this year...
Post by: andyoxon on 07 February, 2023, 08:27:34 pm
Post by: felstedrider on 07 February, 2023, 08:40:46 pm
So glad I listened to "Do nothing" in Autumn 2021+ ::-)
I could look clever by saying the industry saw all this coming but not many people did. Ovo offered me a 3yr fix on Oct 21 which I ignored as I had never fixed for more than a year. It was around this time that Russia started to reduce gas flows blaming technical problems. It was a steady squeeze and prices rose. I went back on the Ovo website early Dec and the offer was still there with a £100 exit fee so I signed up. It was luck more than anything.
What can clearly be seen now is that the Russians were planning to squeeze energy supplies from mid-Summer 21. That said the rise in wholesale prices has not been entirely caused by the Ukraine war despite Government rhetoric.
Post by: Ham on 07 February, 2023, 10:29:08 pm
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Electricity_price_statistics
TL;DR - We have the most expensive rates. Surprise.
Post by: felstedrider on 08 February, 2023, 08:02:58 am
Want to feel even happier for leaving the EU ?
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Electricity_price_statistics
TL;DR - We have the most expensive rates. Surprise.
To be fair we had the most expensive rates before Brexit.
European countries have, however, reacted in a much fairer way, at least as far as the consumer is concerned, to the wholesale price situation.
Post by: rogerzilla on 09 February, 2023, 07:04:15 am
Post by: felstedrider on 08 March, 2023, 10:16:23 am
This is something I just wrote up internally :-
"For anyone interested the UK Energy price cap is currently £4,200pa. This is capped at £2,500 by the Gov’t and everyone was also given a £400 rebate on top.
From 1 April it is forecast that the cap will drop to £3,200pa BUT Gov’t cap will increase to £3,000.
With wholesale process dropping further it is currently forecast that the cap will drop to £2,200 from Q3 and into next Winter.
In summary prices will get a bit more expensive from 1 Apr (but usage is lower then), before dropping as we go into next Winter.
*all numbers for an assumed ‘average’ consumer*"
This is room full of energy professionals and quite a few people still don't look at their bills.
It is now largely expected that the cap-on-the-cap will stay at £2,500. There's a budget update next week and the industry seems to think that Hunt will announce this then.
The cost of subsidising this Winter has been less than expected and, with the large collapse in wholesale prices, the future expected costs is now way lower than the treasury forecast last Autumn. They have spare budget if needed.
Post by: felstedrider on 15 March, 2023, 09:00:40 am
Not as big a win as might be expected as the £400 Winter rebate is gone. The average consumer will use less during April-June so probably about flat in £s terms.
Current expectation is the cap will drop to £2,200 from Q3 so expect Government support to disappear by then.
Post by: rogerzilla on 20 March, 2023, 07:14:06 am
Post by: rafletcher on 20 March, 2023, 05:18:14 pm
Post by: Paul H on 20 March, 2023, 05:53:42 pm
Post by: orraloon on 20 March, 2023, 07:13:08 pm
My last fixed (remember those things?) price deal, which expired in May 22, perfect timing, had a daily charge of 7.77p.
Post by: rogerzilla on 20 March, 2023, 09:50:29 pm
Post by: felstedrider on 21 March, 2023, 09:39:30 am
The standing charge hike was primarily to bail out customers of Bulb. Turned out you were the credit insurer of last resort.
And quite a few other suppliers that went to the wall around the same time. It has always been this way, though - it's just the numbers are so much bigger.
The actual losses on Bulb are going to be less than was forecast due to the collapse in energy prices. Q1 power was at £900 at one point but day ahead just traded @ £82. OK it's warm and it's windy but still we're almost back where we were before the gas supply issues started.
What will be interesting is the terms of the Bulb sale to Octopus which are a little opaque. It seems like Octopus received subsidies and loans to allow them to take on all the customers in one hit. Centrica have kicked off because they weren't offered the same terms (after they walked away from the deal) and it's all in the high court. With prices dumping Octopus will have made a windfall profit on the Bulb book but I suspect they will have to hand at least some of this back to Ofgem/BEIS - provided someone there negotiated this correctly. I'm not sure we will ever really know.
Post by: felstedrider on 29 March, 2023, 10:21:42 pm
In better news Ovo offering a 1yr fix at a discount to the cap as an acquisition tariff. Competition may be starting again.
Also Ovo put a bid in to buy Shell’s UK supply business. (Shell provide all of Ovo’s wholesale power & gas so this looks like a side deal to keep everyone happy).
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 05 April, 2023, 06:45:16 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/apr/05/reduce-average-uk-electricity-bill-public-ownership-clean-energy
Post by: Mr Larrington on 05 April, 2023, 07:28:27 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 08 April, 2023, 11:10:26 am
Got an email from my UK energy company:
Quote
We'd love to hear your feedback on your experience with us. This survey will
take approximately [___INSERT TIME ESTIMATE___] to complete. Thank you in
advance!
Sincerely,
[___INSERT YOUR NAME___]
Doing well it seems...
J
Post by: robgul on 25 April, 2023, 08:34:45 am
On their estimated consumption which is within a gnat's crotchet of actual the Standard Variable is £3516 and the Loyalty offer £3190 - seems worth a punt for £300+ . . . unless there's something I'm missing on the get-out if prices fall aspect?
What's slightly worrying is that their figure quoted in the comparisons on the offer for our current tarif is £3492 - whereas it's actually £2262 (that's gross, i.e. excluding the recent Govt contribution discount) - I've asked the question about errors, not holding my breath on a reply.
*that's on quarterly bills, pay by DD (NOT an even monthly payment)
Post by: felstedrider on 25 April, 2023, 02:12:18 pm
Gas supplies, generation and interconnector flows have been, despite massive scare mongering been pretty healthy. Coupled with creeping demand erosion we're seeing a pretty balanced/slightly long system. Power prices had been in the 5p/kWh range for many many years but this Summer was trading at 50p at one point. Yesterday the May contract went through sub-10p. It's unlikely that prices will return to their old territory but we're left with a wholesale market 2-3 times what is used to be.
Is it a good time to fix ? It'll mean you're not exposed if we end up where we were last year. The downside from current price levels feels quite low. That BG tariff looks like a good hedge if you can jump onto another tariff for free if prices drop.
Risks stay for next Winter are sustained cold (we've had several mild Winters on the bounce), Chinese recovery causing LNG flows to head East again and the availability of the French generation fleet which can cause interconnector flows to flip.
There was a whole separate debate started by Ovo last week on green tariffs and green washing. I have my opinions on this but it's a diversion from the core issue of energy costs.
As an aside I go on a 5 month sabbatical from Friday. I have promised to keep in touch with the office but I will not be as up to date on market changes as I should be.
Post by: rogerzilla on 25 April, 2023, 02:37:52 pm
Post by: felstedrider on 25 April, 2023, 02:50:49 pm
EON are offering nothing as yet, so are presumably milking it for as long as they can until their competitors do something.
I can sort of see the reticence. You're not allowed to market a tariff that only to existing customers so offering a cheap deal means you may acquire customers you don't want along with a high up front cost due to the market stabilisation charge.
Post by: robgul on 25 April, 2023, 04:52:29 pm
Interesting communication from our energy supplier, British Gas - our "ridiculously cheap" fixed deal ends on 30 April 23* - they sent a "Loyalty Jun24" offer that has no exit fees etc (so presumbaly leave when you like for another BG tarif if prices fall - but a fee if you leave BG, fair enough)
On their estimated consumption which is within a gnat's crotchet of actual the Standard Variable is £3516 and the Loyalty offer £3190 - seems worth a punt for £300+ . . . unless there's something I'm missing on the get-out if prices fall aspect?
What's slightly worrying is that their figure quoted in the comparisons on the offer for our current tarif is £3492 - whereas it's actually £2262 (that's gross, i.e. excluding the recent Govt contribution discount) - I've asked the question about errors, not holding my breath on a reply.
*that's on quarterly bills, pay by DD (NOT an even monthly payment)
Update - remarkably someone from BG phoned me this morning and said : 1 The "existing calculation" was an error 2. Yes you can leave without penalty to another BG tarif during the 14 months of the fixed 3. The new deal is supposed to be offered from 1 May and it seems the gun was jumped with the offer that appeared in my online account yesterday.
I've run the Loyalty and Cap rates/consumption through my spreadsheet and the totals are correct . .. so I'm going to take the LoyaltyJun24 deal and make a diary note to check for any more deals every few weeks or if there are public announcemenst on the cap rates.
What's the real annoyance is the increase in standing charge old/new Gas 14.24/29.1 Electric 29.82/53.96 - for no changes to the method of supply.
I've just realised that the 5 week holiday we have just booked from early Feb to mid-March 24 will "save" us quite a bit with the boiler down to frost protect (unlikely to fire up) and almost zero electricity with just a few lights on and off.
Post by: rogerzilla on 25 April, 2023, 05:48:28 pm
Post by: felstedrider on 25 April, 2023, 08:14:03 pm
I’m assuming they will drop next year as the majority of the costs sit in last year. I’m not completely sure how long the costs are paid back over so it may take a couple of years.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 25 April, 2023, 08:24:25 pm
Increasing standing charges are caused by the supplier collecting losses caused by failed suppliers and passing them back to the regulator.
I’m assuming they will drop next year as the majority of the costs sit in last year. I’m not completely sure how long the costs are paid back over so it may take a couple of years.
Great, so we cover capitalism's failure.
FFS.
J
Post by: felstedrider on 25 April, 2023, 08:43:14 pm
Increasing standing charges are caused by the supplier collecting losses caused by failed suppliers and passing them back to the regulator.
I’m assuming they will drop next year as the majority of the costs sit in last year. I’m not completely sure how long the costs are paid back over so it may take a couple of years.
Great, so we cover capitalism's failure.
FFS.
J
The rules have been the same for donkeys. It’s just never effected the consumer before. In previous failures Ofgem have been able to sell the customers or get someone to take them for free. The failures last year (and the year before) were such bags of spanners that Ofgem had to pay someone to take the customers.
The cost of Bulb’s failure has ended up way lower than expected. Annoyingly the terms on which Octopus took the customers is not publicly available.
Post by: rogerzilla on 26 April, 2023, 07:13:05 am
Post by: felstedrider on 26 April, 2023, 08:21:27 am
What they are only just starting to address is preventing suppliers from failing in the first place. The supplier application process is now taking a year. The ability to purchase a "supplier-in-a-box" has been banned. There are also now financial resilience tests as part of the process. Lastly the shonky practice of putting your trades through a different entity has also been banned.
Like any form of regulation they are fixing loopholes as they crop up but it's messy.
I was informed the other day that Ofgem staff have been on strike recently. Apparently there's 1000+ of them.
Post by: robgul on 25 May, 2023, 12:35:40 pm
One thing that pisses me off is the way that the "cap" is expressed as an "annual cost for the average consumer" - in my view that's pretty meaningless - the actual unit and standing charge cap rates are hidden in the depths of OFGEM's website. Be interesting to know the proportion/numbers of consumers that actually fit the average.
Post by: felstedrider on 27 May, 2023, 09:37:21 pm
Spreadsheet time again with the new rates - we opted for a non-penalty fix from BG until 30 June 2024 at under the April-June 23 cap unit rates, rates are now just above - who knows, they may offer another one to leapfrog our current deal and remain below the cap?
One thing that pisses me off is the way that the "cap" is expressed as an "annual cost for the average consumer" - in my view that's pretty meaningless - the actual unit and standing charge cap rates are hidden in the depths of OFGEM's website. Be interesting to know the proportion/numbers of consumers that actually fit the average.
Stating the cap as £X/year is troublesome and prone to misinterpretation. The problem is the Government think that the average consumer is too dim to work anything like this out. I heard from a high user (think swimming pool here) who thought they were capped at £2,500 per year when they usually spend 3 times that so it’s clearly a problem.
I’m hoping the last 18 months have helped consumers to understand the market a bit more. Should start to see a bit more competition soon.
Post by: rafletcher on 16 June, 2023, 09:32:58 am
Post by: cygnet on 16 June, 2023, 09:28:51 pm
3x Wrong.
Having seen this it's easy to understand how people slip into fuel debt, through no fault of their own.
This is all down to BT (oh, and that the call handler stated that they had not been receiving/processing gas smart meter readings since my last bill.)
I look forward to when energy companies seek new customers, rather than claiming everything is "at the cap"
Post by: felstedrider on 19 June, 2023, 11:44:47 am
https://www.cornwall-insight.com/predictions-and-insights-into-the-default-tariff-cap/
I still think it will be a while before you see suppliers start to compete for customers again. Too much pain in the last year and the regulator is not exactly being supportive.
* calculated for the notional average user as defined by Ofgem
Post by: Lightning Phil on 19 June, 2023, 12:53:48 pm
Post by: felstedrider on 19 June, 2023, 05:13:40 pm
There isn’t any such £2k cap. I do wish that wouldn’t get repeated.
Sloppy on my part. Footnote added.
In my defence I’ve been pretty clear on my thoughts of using a flat spend number to define the cap, but there’s no sign of a change in approach.
Post by: andyoxon on 27 July, 2023, 10:14:28 am
On Octopus here:
Elect SC £0.4795 UR 0.303 /kWh
Gas SC £0.2747 UR 0.076
Anything significantly different?
Post by: slope on 28 July, 2023, 12:11:21 pm
Elect: SC = £0.6181 UR = £0.3109 /kWh
+ VAT
Post by: andyoxon on 28 July, 2023, 12:34:16 pm
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 28 July, 2023, 12:44:41 pm
Scottish Power.
Elect: SC = £0.6181 UR = £0.3109 /kWh
This is one of the reasons people are opposing windfarms up here.
It is one of the cheapest generation technologies, and the country with many windfarms has some of the most expensive electricity. Bloody bonkers.
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 28 July, 2023, 01:09:48 pm
Now we're post the latest (End of June) adjustment of the capped tariffs, wondering if there's much variability in daily standing charges for those on current variable rates...
On Octopus here:
Elect SC £0.4795 UR 0.303 /kWh
Gas SC £0.2747 UR 0.076
Anything significantly different?
There will be a lot of variability in standing charges because they are regional.
https://www.uswitch.com/gas-electricity/guides/regional-energy-prices/#what-is-the-cost-of-electricity-by-region
Post by: andyoxon on 29 July, 2023, 03:56:13 pm
Post by: rogerzilla on 29 July, 2023, 05:35:54 pm
Electricity
Next Loyalty Fixed v4
Fixed term ends 29/07/2024
29.98 p/kWh 43.57 p/day
(All rates inc. VAT)
Gas
Next Loyalty Fixed v4
Fixed term ends 29/07/2024
7.48 p/kWh 23.08 p/day
(All rates inc. VAT)
Works out to £1,140/year (plus I'll have to buy at least £500 of wood - normally more than that, but we have to go in the office more nowadays, and I have quite a lot left in the store, plus a long-dead cherry tree to chop down).
Post by: felstedrider on 29 July, 2023, 09:18:05 pm
The wholesale element is roughly 10p of that.
There’s been some very low prices of late as it’s been so windy. A lot of the continent has seen negative pricing. This Winter still has a bit of risk to the upside.
Post by: felstedrider on 31 July, 2023, 07:07:42 pm
Any new licences granted will take at least a couple of years to produce actual gas. The forecast volumes aren’t big enough to remove the correlation to European gas prices that has caused the spikes. I have been critical about there not being enough focus on energy security but this doesn’t really help.
You could put up a tonne of onshore wind generation quicker but that doesn’t make a good story for voters.
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 31 July, 2023, 07:56:00 pm
Post by: felstedrider on 31 July, 2023, 08:33:55 pm
Wind generation would at least be contributing to our energy needs. Oil and gas mostly sold elsewhere
With gas it needs to land somewhere so there will be a physical pipeline. Obviously there’s no detail at the moment but they could, theoretically, specify that the gas has to connect to the UK Grid.
One of the bigger problems with wind is locational. The turbines are built well away from where the demand is (at the moment). On really windy days you have to turn down generation in Scotland as you can’t get the power to where it’s needed. More storage/batteries would help. There’s interconnectors to France, Belgium and the Netherlands that can flow both ways so you could export if it’s economically viable.
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 31 July, 2023, 10:09:24 pm
Post by: felstedrider on 01 August, 2023, 06:50:27 am
And the Viking Link is supposed to be coming this year?
Website says commissioning in December.
I did see some of the works when riding through the fens a few weeks back.
Post by: Kim on 01 August, 2023, 11:09:40 am
You could put up a tonne of onshore wind generation quicker but that doesn’t make a good story for voters.
Or it does, but for the wrong voters.
Post by: felstedrider on 01 August, 2023, 12:46:42 pm
You could put up a tonne of onshore wind generation quicker but that doesn’t make a good story for voters.
Or it does, but for the wrong voters.
Indeedy. The fens were once covered with ‘no to windfarm’ signs (there’s quite a few ‘no to solar now). So Govt give in and move to offshore. East Anglia is now covered with ‘no to new pylons’ signs. Obvs you need to get the power from where it’s generated to where it’s consumed.
I don’t envy anyone trying to fix this.
The elephant in the room is that long term prices don’t really support investment. The market went all the way up and then most of the way back down again. Long term prices don’t support the building of new oil and gas fields or new renewable build. The returns just aren’t great.
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 01 August, 2023, 02:15:37 pm
They frustrate and anger me to a huge extent.
Quite a few of them are plain ignorant (think flat earther level of ignorant).
As someone else eloquently put it
Quote
The world is on fire, and they are opposing windfarms to preserve a view.
(that was in connection with a particular proposed offshore windfarm).
Post by: L CC on 01 August, 2023, 04:04:40 pm
There is a sizeable, and very loud, number of people utterly opposed to any windfarms in the highlands, Islands and offshore.A local hillside is about (for planning levels of about) to be covered in a solar farm. As big as you can get without central Govt planning. One resident is vociferously complaining. Every time I ride past I toy with defacing their opposition sign with 'NEVER MIND THE PLANET, SAVE MY VIEW'. They have at least 4 cars at their house.
They frustrate and anger me to a huge extent.
Quite a few of them are plain ignorant (think flat earther level of ignorant).
As someone else eloquently put itQuoteThe world is on fire, and they are opposing windfarms to preserve a view.
(that was in connection with a particular proposed offshore windfarm).
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 01 August, 2023, 04:08:57 pm
It will take too long to write with sharpie, paint brush or spray can. So make a stencil at home.There is a sizeable, and very loud, number of people utterly opposed to any windfarms in the highlands, Islands and offshore.A local hillside is about (for planning levels of about) to be covered in a solar farm. As big as you can get without central Govt planning. One resident is vociferously complaining. Every time I ride past I toy with defacing their opposition sign with 'NEVER MIND THE PLANET, SAVE MY VIEW'. They have at least 4 cars at their house.
They frustrate and anger me to a huge extent.
Quite a few of them are plain ignorant (think flat earther level of ignorant).
As someone else eloquently put itQuoteThe world is on fire, and they are opposing windfarms to preserve a view.
(that was in connection with a particular proposed offshore windfarm).
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 01 August, 2023, 05:41:40 pm
There is a sizeable, and very loud, number of people utterly opposed to any windfarms in the highlands, Islands and offshore.A local hillside is about (for planning levels of about) to be covered in a solar farm. As big as you can get without central Govt planning. One resident is vociferously complaining. Every time I ride past I toy with defacing their opposition sign with 'NEVER MIND THE PLANET, SAVE MY VIEW'. They have at least 4 cars at their house.
They frustrate and anger me to a huge extent.
Quite a few of them are plain ignorant (think flat earther level of ignorant).
As someone else eloquently put itQuoteThe world is on fire, and they are opposing windfarms to preserve a view.
(that was in connection with a particular proposed offshore windfarm).
Sounds about right.
Trouble is, the loud morons are so loud, they've been reported in Scottish press as "Major opposition to windfarms from local inhabitants", and the MP seizing it as a question to ask in parliament.
It it probably less than 100 people out of thousands.
Post by: rogerzilla on 08 August, 2023, 10:51:55 am
I thought they'd at least harmonise the sunset dates for gas and oil. Heat pumps absolutely terrify me.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 08 August, 2023, 11:36:00 am
Post by: grams on 08 August, 2023, 11:49:41 am
Post by: rogerzilla on 08 August, 2023, 01:59:42 pm
AFAICS oil boilers are only being banned in new builds from 2025, anything currently installed is okay to carry on and to be replaced like-for-like.If that's correct, it's not too bad. There's a high chance whatever we buy next year has no gas. We'll probably use a lot of wood, but it can't easily heat the hot water.
Post by: De Sisti on 08 August, 2023, 04:36:36 pm
a heat pump in my 1910 mid-terraced house. This is their reply:
Thanks so much for putting your name down for an Octopus Energy heat pump - heating that’s more energy efficient, more comfortable and far better for the planet than a boiler powered by fossil fuels. From what you’ve told us, it sounds like your home may not have enough space for a heat pump or a water cylinder right now.
It’s currently all-systems-go at our green heating research & development centre, and we’re making good progress in designing a heat pump system that’s the perfect fit for smaller spaces. Once we’ve found the right solution, we’ll get back in touch to let you know that we’re ready to install your heat pump.
So there it is. Heat pumps currently cannot be fitted to some properties (but we all knew that anyway).
Post by: rogerzilla on 08 August, 2023, 04:58:23 pm
You can, of course, have instantaneous electric water heating - it's been around for decades - but it's ruinously expensive, beng resistance heating.
Post by: Kim on 08 August, 2023, 05:32:59 pm
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 08 August, 2023, 06:10:39 pm
Post by: Kim on 08 August, 2023, 06:22:55 pm
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 08 August, 2023, 06:28:51 pm
Post by: Kim on 08 August, 2023, 06:37:24 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 08 August, 2023, 07:56:50 pm
So there it is. Heat pumps currently cannot be fitted to some properties (but we all knew that anyway).
Not at all. You could install an air/air heat pump just fine.
J
Post by: Kim on 08 August, 2023, 08:10:30 pm
So there it is. Heat pumps currently cannot be fitted to some properties (but we all knew that anyway).
Not at all. You could install an air/air heat pump just fine.
Though those tend not to attract subsidies, on account of being reversible...
Post by: grams on 08 August, 2023, 08:14:35 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 08 August, 2023, 08:39:55 pm
Also you need space/access/permission for an outdoor radiator. And a cooperative landlord. And few enough rooms that they can be fed by a couple of ceiling units. And not be bothered by the noise. And suitable electricity supply. And some solution to DHW. And so on.
That is very different from "my house is too small to have a heat pump"
J
Post by: JellyLegs on 08 August, 2023, 09:55:55 pm
As heat pumps are far more expensive and really need major work done to the house (much bigger rads or underfloor heating) for efficient and effective operation, won't everyone without mains gas just keep flogging old oil boilers as long as they possibly can? Typically they are used to heat older, rural, houses which are much less easy to upgrade.
I thought they'd at least harmonise the sunset dates for gas and oil. Heat pumps absolutely terrify me.
Had a heat pump for 9 years now, after replacing an oil fired combi boiler as no gas supply in the village. This is a 1930s detached bungalow with more modern extensions. Had to upgrade the energy efficiency of the house first but tbh all stuff any sensible person will already have done by now. We had to add some extra loft insulation to bring it up to the standards at the time from the 100mm or less it had in place, replaced missing draught excluder strips, adjusted leaky doors and windows to fit the openings correctly and upgrade the halogen lights to led. All these measures were sorted in a weekend of DIY and would have paid for themselves within a couple of years regardless of the heating system used.
The heat pump installer did the calculations for heat requirements of each room and recommended I upgraded 3 rads to larger sizes, I kept the same dimensions just replaced singles with doubles/triples. Not a difficult diy job or a massive cost although I had the installer do it in the end because I took the opportunity to have them move a couple of other rad locations while they were at it to ease later building work that I had planned. The biggest cost apart from the pump itself was installing a hot water cylinder which the house did not previously have. Our biggest complaint about the oil fired combi was that it simply couldn’t produce a decent hot shower at more than a trickle. Whatever solution we chose had to solve this problem which means I massively overspec’ed the tank to keep Mrs JellyLegs happy and probably doubled the cost of that element.
The heat pump was significantly more expensive than a replacement oil boiler but the RHI payments over 7 years pretty much covered the full cost of the installation plus a chunk of the additional plumbing work I detailed above as well. The annual running costs of the heating for the 9 years have proved to be slightly less than the cost of the oil it replaced, with no need for a smelly oil tank or oil boiler, and no worries about theft of the oil or oil leaks. The heat pump has less of a footprint than the oil tank although in a different location and the hot water cylinder sits where the boiler previously lived.
Once we got used to the different way of using it, and a faulty part was rectified which could have as easily been a faulty boiler part, the heat pump works very well, no real issues with getting adequate heat or hot water, even in the coldest winter we have had.
Of course, that’s my experience only, your mileage may vary but I would have no qualms about going with a heat pump again if I moved house.
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 08 August, 2023, 11:29:57 pm
Post by: rogerzilla on 09 August, 2023, 07:11:05 am
Post by: De Sisti on 09 August, 2023, 07:35:41 am
Tell me more.So there it is. Heat pumps currently cannot be fitted to some properties (but we all knew that anyway).
Not at all. You could install an air/air heat pump just fine.
J
Post by: HTFB on 09 August, 2023, 10:45:40 am
I don't think RHI payments are still a thing, are they?Not the RHI. Instead the Boiler Upgrade Scheme is an up-front £5,000 grant for an air source heat pump (or biomass boiler, under certain restrictions). Or even £6,000 for a ground source pump. It leaves you several £k out of pocket compared with a replacement combi boiler. And you do need a cupboard for the water tank.
There is a point about design work going on to make heat pump installations suitable for small homes: you can save quite a bit by simplifying the pipework and letting the heat pump unit do all the pumping. But there are issues (to do with multiple heating zones, possibly?). Heat-pump-installer-twitter has occasional disagreement about this stuff and best practice doesn't seem to have settled down.
Have we done radiator fans? It's a bit inelegant but if your existing radiators are a bit small for low-temperature heating you can increase their output by blowing the air through.
So there it is. Heat pumps currently cannot be fitted to some properties (but we all knew that anyway).There's no home that can't be heated with a heat pump, the question is at what cost.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 09 August, 2023, 10:50:52 am
Tell me more.
https://www.orionairsales.co.uk/mitsubishi-heavy-industrial-air-conditioning-srk35zsp-w-wall-heat-pump-35kw12000btu-r32-240v50hz-11233-p.asp
Something like this. Added bonus of cooling in the summer if you wish to spend the energy.
They also have models that have one exterior unit and multiple indoor units.
Has to be installed by a professional installer cos of the refrigerant. Tho there's talk Hitachi are gonna release one that uses propane as it's refrigerant specifically for the DIY installation market.
J
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 09 August, 2023, 11:13:48 am
So there it is. Heat pumps currently cannot be fitted to some properties (but we all knew that anyway).There's no home that can't be heated with a heat pump, the question is at what cost.
De Sisti said 'fitted'.
The will certainly be true. How would you fit a heat pump to a terrace in a row that is listed? You won't be permitted to fit one to the exterior of the building, or in front of it.
Post by: De Sisti on 09 August, 2023, 12:02:28 pm
Octopus have just replied to me and said they only fit air-source heat pumps
Tell me more.
https://www.orionairsales.co.uk/mitsubishi-heavy-industrial-air-conditioning-srk35zsp-w-wall-heat-pump-35kw12000btu-r32-240v50hz-11233-p.asp (https://www.orionairsales.co.uk/mitsubishi-heavy-industrial-air-conditioning-srk35zsp-w-wall-heat-pump-35kw12000btu-r32-240v50hz-11233-p.asp)
Something like this. Added bonus of cooling in the summer if you wish to spend the energy.
They also have models that have one exterior unit and multiple indoor units.
Has to be installed by a professional installer cos of the refrigerant. Tho there's talk Hitachi are gonna release one that uses propane as it's refrigerant specifically for the DIY installation market.
J
Hi Michael,
Thanks for your inquiry. The space requirement for the water cylinder is 1m x 1m x 2m. The heat pump requires 1m in front of the unit and roughly the same to each side. We only install air source heat pumps so we couldn't recommend another type. Do you think you may have space for a water cylinder and air source heat pump?
We'd love to help if possible!
OES🐙
Perhaps a new Worcester Bosch combi boiler in 2034? I'm sure spares will be available for several years after installation.
Post by: quixoticgeek on 09 August, 2023, 12:13:10 pm
Octopus have just replied to me and said they only fit air-source heat pumps
Hi Michael,
Thanks for your inquiry. The space requirement for the water cylinder is 1m x 1m x 2m. The heat pump requires 1m in front of the unit and roughly the same to each side. We only install air source heat pumps so we couldn't recommend another type. Do you think you may have space for a water cylinder and air source heat pump?
We'd love to help if possible!
OES🐙
Perhaps a new Worcester Bosch combi boiler in 2034? I'm sure spares will be available for several years after installation.
You can have a solution installed by someone other tha octopus. It's electricity, not a Mac.
J
Post by: Kim on 09 August, 2023, 12:17:55 pm
So there it is. Heat pumps currently cannot be fitted to some properties (but we all knew that anyway).There's no home that can't be heated with a heat pump, the question is at what cost.
De Sisti said 'fitted'.
The will certainly be true. How would you fit a heat pump to a terrace in a row that is listed? You won't be permitted to fit one to the exterior of the building, or in front of it.
Ground source with a borehole, if (big if) it's practical to get the drilling equipment in place.
No doubt at some point someone will come up with an air-source heat pump that's installed internally and breathes through something we're conveniently blind to, like a balanced flue or a chimney. Bonus points for flow temperatures in the high 70s and fitting the envelope of a traditional combi boiler...
Post by: quixoticgeek on 09 August, 2023, 12:58:24 pm
Ground source with a borehole, if (big if) it's practical to get the drilling equipment in place.
No doubt at some point someone will come up with an air-source heat pump that's installed internally and breathes through something we're conveniently blind to, like a balanced flue or a chimney. Bonus points for flow temperatures in the high 70s and fitting the envelope of a traditional combi boiler...
Actually. The trick for a terrace house is to not think in terms of house. But in terms of houses. When they are all lined up neatly in a row that's a perfect use case for district heating. Install one large ground source heat pump at the end of the street, run the flow and return under the pavement or if available cycle lane (to allow any leaked heat to help reduce icing on the surface), and then you can just run a pair of pipes into each house. Problem solved.
I know this flies in the face of the everyone for themselves attitude to surviving the impending apocalypse that our govern and many peoy believe is the solution. But really. Work together and this problem is a lot easier to solve.
J
Post by: Kim on 09 August, 2023, 12:59:39 pm
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 09 August, 2023, 01:05:06 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 09 August, 2023, 01:06:26 pm
Yeahbut this is BRITAIN. Half the houses are owned by rich people who don't give a shit about a) their tenants or b) decarbonising
Once again, you can't get there from here. First you have to get rid of here (and 'here' is not a place or even a time).
I think it's time we seriously considered turning Britain off.
Certainly south of Hadrian's wall anyway.
J
Post by: Kim on 09 August, 2023, 01:16:02 pm
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 09 August, 2023, 01:58:21 pm
But we are where we are, and where we are is here. We may be heading there, but we don't know how or even why, so just don't go there. As David Birne once sang, "It's over there, it's over there." Is it over here?
Post by: JellyLegs on 09 August, 2023, 06:25:51 pm
I don't think RHI payments are still a thing, are they?
Possibly not. The scheme changed name / details once while I was applying and again soon after which meant my payment changed somehow though I don’t remember exact details.
Post by: JellyLegs on 09 August, 2023, 06:37:06 pm
So there it is. Heat pumps currently cannot be fitted to some properties (but we all knew that anyway).There's no home that can't be heated with a heat pump, the question is at what cost.
De Sisti said 'fitted'.
The will certainly be true. How would you fit a heat pump to a terrace in a row that is listed? You won't be permitted to fit one to the exterior of the building, or in front of it.
No, though you also wouldn’t necessarily be able to fit a new gas boiler either. They now need condensate / flue pipe work to breach the external wall which in theory will need listed building consent. My in-laws’ boiler that had to be installed in the detached garage and pipe work run under the drive and into the house below ground level for this very reason.
Post by: Kim on 09 August, 2023, 08:11:25 pm
Post by: HTFB on 10 August, 2023, 10:19:23 am
Actually. The trick for a terrace house is to not think in terms of house. But in terms of houses. When they are all lined up neatly in a row that's a perfect use case for district heating. Install one large ground source heat pump at the end of the street, run the flow and return under the pavement or if available cycle lane (to allow any leaked heat to help reduce icing on the surface), and then you can just run a pair of pipes into each house. Problem solved.This personne speaketh sooth.
I know this flies in the face of the everyone for themselves attitude to surviving the impending apocalypse that our govern and many peoy believe is the solution. But really. Work together and this problem is a lot easier to solve.
J
Post by: HTFB on 10 August, 2023, 10:35:31 am
Yeahbut this is BRITAIN. Half the houses are owned by rich people who don't give a shit about a) their tenants or b) decarbonisingLandlords are fairly easy to deal with, because we can forbid them from letting the property unless it's at a decent standard. Obviously decency doesn't run to the living conditions for the actual residents, but we can at least make the buildings a bit more efficient.
The problems are more with owner-occupiers, who don't want to turn their home upside-down while they are living there, and can't afford to move out for months. Or they are very old and can't possibly cope with the upheaval. When they die the house is naturally vacant but the heirs can't afford to do the place up until they have sold. Also people are dying far too rarely for us to make real progress.
Post by: Mr Larrington on 10 August, 2023, 11:11:15 am
Yeahbut this is BRITAIN. Half the houses are owned by rich people who don't give a shit about a) their tenants or b) decarbonisingLandlords are fairly easy to deal with, because we can forbid them from letting the property unless it's at a decent standard. Obviously decency doesn't run to the living conditions for the actual residents, but we can at least make the buildings a bit more efficient.
Except that the part of “we” responsible for enacting the required legislation is also a landlord in its copious free time and is vanishingly unlikely to pass any laws that detract from their bottom line.
See also: cladding, unsafe, removal of.
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 10 August, 2023, 11:11:17 am
Post by: HTFB on 10 August, 2023, 11:24:11 am
I thought houses had energy ratings when sold now, but not, I note, when rented.You need an energy performance certificate to either sell or rent, and currently to rent it needs to be band E or better (or exempted); government policy is gradually to range that E to a C.
Post by: grams on 10 August, 2023, 11:29:04 am
Post by: JellyLegs on 10 August, 2023, 11:41:14 am
The condensate pipe can be routed to an existing drain internally.
That’s what I would have thought sensibly but it’s definitely not what the parents in law were told nor what my mum was told, hence the need in her case for unsightly pipe work* running round 2 sides of the kitchen rather than 6 inches to the right of the boiler.
* Note to self - I really must get around to neatly boxing that in before she strips me of the inheritance.
Post by: Kim on 10 August, 2023, 11:46:35 am
The condensate pipe can be routed to an existing drain internally.
That’s what I would have thought sensibly but it’s definitely not what the parents in law were told nor what my mum was told, hence the need in her case for unsightly pipe work* running round 2 sides of the kitchen rather than 6 inches to the right of the boiler.
* Note to self - I really must get around to neatly boxing that in before she strips me of the inheritance.
I think this may be a moving goalpost. Past wisdom has been that the condensate pipe isn't allowed to breathe indoor air, as flue gasses may be present. I think more recent boilers avoid this by means of an internal u-bend arrangement, as plumbing them internally has overwhelming advantages when it comes to the condensate not freezing. Ours is plumbed into the washing machine drain below the boiler.
Post by: phantasmagoriana on 10 August, 2023, 12:17:20 pm
So there it is. Heat pumps currently cannot be fitted to some properties (but we all knew that anyway).There's no home that can't be heated with a heat pump, the question is at what cost.
De Sisti said 'fitted'.
The will certainly be true. How would you fit a heat pump to a terrace in a row that is listed? You won't be permitted to fit one to the exterior of the building, or in front of it.
Or flats. I'm ground floor, but even then I'm not allowed to fix anything to the outside of the building or install anything in the communal garden.
Post by: felstedrider on 10 August, 2023, 12:20:47 pm
Post by: quixoticgeek on 10 August, 2023, 03:06:33 pm
The other problem with the terraced example is that you need everyone to have knackered boilers that need replacing. If any of them have paid £££ to have a new one put in, in say, the last 5 years, good luck.
No you don't.
"Hello we'd like to give you €500 and install this heat exchanger where your old boiler was. It will require we run 2 pipes from the pavement to the heat exchanger. Afterwards it will save you lots of money every year. "
J
Post by: quixoticgeek on 10 August, 2023, 03:09:18 pm
Or flats. I'm ground floor, but even then I'm not allowed to fix anything to the outside of the building or install anything in the communal garden.
Apartment blocks are yet another perfect use case for a communal system. Even better if it's off District heating.
I live in an apartment block. We have a central heat exchanger in the basement that feeds communal circuits (one per side of a staircase). Right now it uses waste heat from industry. But it could easily be driven by a bloody huge heat pump.
Note, in the city of London they have such huge heat pumps. With big ground source bore holes. Very efficient.
J
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 10 August, 2023, 08:49:57 pm
Post by: felstedrider on 10 August, 2023, 09:00:29 pm
District heating FTW. And waste heat from industry is surely even more environmentally pleasant than a heat pump (better would be that the industry produced no waste heat, obviously, but given that it does). District heating is common in Polish cities, but usually coal-fired and not efficient (you can trace the route of the pipes by following where the snow melts); it's 1980s technology from the communist era. A system is currently being installed in central Bristol; I can't find out how it's to be powered but apparently there is a large water-source heat pump in Cumberland Basin (western end of the city docks).
Nottingham has something like that.
Good to see Bristol still working on something after the clusterf**k that was their entry into the supply market.
Post by: ian on 10 August, 2023, 10:12:29 pm
The condensate pipe can be routed to an existing drain internally.
That’s what I would have thought sensibly but it’s definitely not what the parents in law were told nor what my mum was told, hence the need in her case for unsightly pipe work* running round 2 sides of the kitchen rather than 6 inches to the right of the boiler.
* Note to self - I really must get around to neatly boxing that in before she strips me of the inheritance.
I think this may be a moving goalpost. Past wisdom has been that the condensate pipe isn't allowed to breathe indoor air, as flue gasses may be present. I think more recent boilers avoid this by means of an internal u-bend arrangement, as plumbing them internally has overwhelming advantages when it comes to the condensate not freezing. Ours is plumbed into the washing machine drain below the boiler.
Our last place had this. Seemed ok. Unlike the internal flue, for which we had to have several inspection hatches fitted.
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 11 August, 2023, 12:20:24 pm
https://twitter.com/Chris_Carus/status/1689756927461355520
Post by: ian on 11 August, 2023, 12:27:40 pm
Post by: HTFB on 11 August, 2023, 03:10:57 pm
If we want people to fit heat pumps etc. then it has to be an order of magnitude easier and straightforward. I'm not doing weeks of research and then praying I find an engineer that knows what he's doing, then actually turns up and does a good job (challenge enough for a gas boiler). I'm happy enough with our 18-year-old ish boiler and tank.You are a fount of common sense. I can point you to a good installer, in my private capacity, but that doesn't scale.
Post by: rogerzilla on 25 August, 2023, 09:12:10 am
6.89p for gas (from 7.5p)
27.35p for electric (from 30.1p)
Standing charge caps have actually crept up a tiny bit (haven't we paid for Bulb by now?):
29.62p for gas (from 29p)
53.37p for electric (from 53p)
As there's no £400 grant, this winter is going to cost almost everyone more than 2022/23, and nothing has been done about non-gas generators being massively overpaid for what they produce.
As a low user, the standing charges are 27% of my annual spend. That's bonkers.
Post by: sojournermike on 25 August, 2023, 12:22:32 pm
If we want people to fit heat pumps etc. then it has to be an order of magnitude easier and straightforward. I'm not doing weeks of research and then praying I find an engineer that knows what he's doing, then actually turns up and does a good job (challenge enough for a gas boiler). I'm happy enough with our 18-year-old ish boiler and tank.You are a fount of common sense. I can point you to a good installer, in my private capacity, but that doesn't scale.
You could point me to a good installer if you know any in North Yorkshire?
PM is private.
Mike
Post by: sojournermike on 25 August, 2023, 12:24:04 pm
If we want people to fit heat pumps etc. then it has to be an order of magnitude easier and straightforward. I'm not doing weeks of research and then praying I find an engineer that knows what he's doing, then actually turns up and does a good job (challenge enough for a gas boiler). I'm happy enough with our 18-year-old ish boiler and tank.
Finding someone who will turn up and do a good job is pretty hard in many fields these days. There are plenty of people who can competently and install condensing boiler but still set up flow temperatures that mean it won’t condense…
Post by: sojournermike on 25 August, 2023, 12:25:30 pm
New caps are
6.89p for gas (from 7.5p)
27.35p for electric (from 30.1p)
Standing charge caps have actually crept up a tiny bit (haven't we paid for Bulb by now?):
29.62p for gas (from 29p)
53.37p for electric (from 53p)
As there's no £400 grant, this winter is going to cost almost everyone more than 2022/23, and nothing has been done about non-gas generators being massively overpaid for what they produce.
As a low user, the standing charges are 27% of my annual spend. That's bonkers.
Better see I if my fixed gas contract, due to start in September, falls a bit?
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 25 August, 2023, 02:02:26 pm
Post by: rogerzilla on 25 August, 2023, 02:19:42 pm
On the other hand, the sausage-munching charlatans won't let me reduce my DD to the projected amount - they only allow a 10% reduction!
Post by: sojournermike on 25 August, 2023, 10:39:51 pm
I would. My fixed is due to run out on 14th Sept so I just left the gas to go on variable until I saw what Octopus had to offer at the new cap.
My fix runs out 22/9 but is at 4.4p/kWh currently. The question will be does the cap override the new fix. I’ll give them a couple of days and ask.
Post by: felstedrider on 26 August, 2023, 06:08:18 am
Post by: robgul on 26 August, 2023, 07:46:48 am
The cap only applies to a suppliers standard variable rate. If you’ve fixed then you’ve fixed.
The fixed deal I have with BG has a no-penalty get out to go to variable (or any other tariff if there are any) - at the last cap change they offered a transfer to a new fix at below variable . . that's what I did and expect to have another offer shortly.
. . . and bit of a moan about OFGEM and info they publish - yes "the cap is now £nnn" - but why can't they publish the cap unit RATES? - as for, probably, millions of users the annual figure bears no relation to what they are actually paying. Each time there's a cap change I have to hunt out the unit/sc rates to work out my probable bill.
Post by: rogerzilla on 26 August, 2023, 08:03:09 am
Apparently part of the cap reduction (in mythical £/year for the average house) is because we are using less energy now. So the reduction is even more meaningless.
Post by: felstedrider on 26 August, 2023, 08:30:14 am
But, yes, we’re all using less energy so annual average consumption is being reduced.
I’m hoping to see a bit more aggressive customer acquisition from the suppliers which should result in some deals. Current cap forecast for Q4 is a drop of about 7% on current levels.
Post by: felstedrider on 26 August, 2023, 08:42:16 am
I’m back at work first week of October.
Post by: sojournermike on 26 August, 2023, 10:46:57 am
You really have to dig around for the useful info and the Ofgem website is terrible. This is, unfortunately, part of a general dumbing down. The last 2 years have taught me how little the general public knows about the functioning ofthe energy marketanything.
But, yes, we’re all using less energy so annual average consumption is being reduced.
I’m hoping to see a bit more aggressive customer acquisition from the suppliers which should result in some deals. Current cap forecast for Q4 is a drop of about 7% on current levels.
FTFY
Meanwhile, a little investigation confirms my new fix is so close to the cap moving would be irrelevant. More importantly, I'm fortunate it's affordable and I have approximately zero trust in Putin's goodwill and willingness to not act to increase gas prices in winter.
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 26 August, 2023, 01:11:20 pm
Post by: Pickled Onion on 26 August, 2023, 07:48:17 pm
It's going to be some kind of e-voucher sent to anyone with a continuous cruising licence on a specific date earlier this year.
Post by: felstedrider on 26 August, 2023, 09:07:36 pm
The decision to fix for a year should assume prices rise in Q1 and then retreat next Summer. If the BG offers continue to allow you to jump between products then it sounds like a free option.
Post by: Jaded on 26 August, 2023, 09:45:01 pm
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 27 August, 2023, 01:43:18 pm
Octopus have just offered me a fixie, but i cannot log in to see what it is just now.Does it have multicoloured eight-spoke wheels, stupidly short bars and no brakes?
Post by: ian on 29 August, 2023, 06:25:29 pm
If we want people to fit heat pumps etc. then it has to be an order of magnitude easier and straightforward. I'm not doing weeks of research and then praying I find an engineer that knows what he's doing, then actually turns up and does a good job (challenge enough for a gas boiler). I'm happy enough with our 18-year-old ish boiler and tank.
Finding someone who will turn up and do a good job is pretty hard in many fields these days. There are plenty of people who can competently and install condensing boiler but still set up flow temperatures that mean it won’t condense…
Indeed, I'm not nearly 100% confident that a gas boiler will get fitted OK, so something still relatively niche like an heat pump...
Post by: andyoxon on 20 September, 2023, 07:21:38 am
Octopus have just offered me a fixie, but i cannot log in to see what it is just now.
What are the thoughts on fixed rates now? Anyone recently fixed on to something from the current flexible rate? Even Octopus are charging an exit fee now, for fixing at the current tariff rates.
Post by: rogerzilla on 20 September, 2023, 07:41:06 am
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 20 September, 2023, 10:39:15 am
Some interesting info on here, Octopus saying they aren't increasing their standing charge unlike Ofgem's suggestion.
We just came off a fixed last month, we went onto Flux for electric but they haven't offered us a fix for gas so we're currently on Flexible. I was waiting for the price cap announcement but I'm not sure if I can now find what the fix for gas would be on the website...
Post by: rafletcher on 20 September, 2023, 11:11:57 am
Octopus have just offered me a fixie, but i cannot log in to see what it is just now.
What are the thoughts on fixed rates now? Anyone recently fixed on to something from the current flexible rate? Even Octopus are charging an exit fee now, for fixing at the current tariff rates.
I went fixed, SO energy 1 year to August next year, Electrics 27.97 s/c 41.55, Gas 6.85 s/c 27.7. Exit fees have jumped to £75 per tarriff. It was more like £10 each the last time I switched!
Post by: andyoxon on 20 September, 2023, 12:18:28 pm
I went fixed, SO energy 1 year to August next year, Electrics 27.97 s/c 41.55, Gas 6.85 s/c 27.7. Exit fees have jumped to £75 per tarriff. It was more like £10 each the last time I switched!
I've decided to fix with Octopus 12mths - the fixed rates are pretty much what the new October flex capped rate is. Exit fees too, so will see what happens to tariffs in April 2024, but guessing* probably wouldn't be dropping massively.
Post by: JellyLegs on 09 October, 2023, 10:48:44 pm
As heat pumps are far more expensive and really need major work done to the house (much bigger rads or underfloor heating) for efficient and effective operation, won't everyone without mains gas just keep flogging old oil boilers as long as they possibly can? Typically they are used to heat older, rural, houses which are much less easy to upgrade.
I thought they'd at least harmonise the sunset dates for gas and oil. Heat pumps absolutely terrify me.
Had a heat pump for 9 years now, after replacing an oil fired combi boiler as no gas supply in the village. This is a 1930s detached bungalow with more modern extensions. Had to upgrade the energy efficiency of the house first but tbh all stuff any sensible person will already have done by now. We had to add some extra loft insulation to bring it up to the standards at the time from the 100mm or less it had in place, replaced missing draught excluder strips, adjusted leaky doors and windows to fit the openings correctly and upgrade the halogen lights to led. All these measures were sorted in a weekend of DIY and would have paid for themselves within a couple of years regardless of the heating system used.
The heat pump installer did the calculations for heat requirements of each room and recommended I upgraded 3 rads to larger sizes, I kept the same dimensions just replaced singles with doubles/triples. Not a difficult diy job or a massive cost although I had the installer do it in the end because I took the opportunity to have them move a couple of other rad locations while they were at it to ease later building work that I had planned. The biggest cost apart from the pump itself was installing a hot water cylinder which the house did not previously have. Our biggest complaint about the oil fired combi was that it simply couldn’t produce a decent hot shower at more than a trickle. Whatever solution we chose had to solve this problem which means I massively overspec’ed the tank to keep Mrs JellyLegs happy and probably doubled the cost of that element.
The heat pump was significantly more expensive than a replacement oil boiler but the RHI payments over 7 years pretty much covered the full cost of the installation plus a chunk of the additional plumbing work I detailed above as well. The annual running costs of the heating for the 9 years have proved to be slightly less than the cost of the oil it replaced, with no need for a smelly oil tank or oil boiler, and no worries about theft of the oil or oil leaks. The heat pump has less of a footprint than the oil tank although in a different location and the hot water cylinder sits where the boiler previously lived.
Once we got used to the different way of using it, and a faulty part was rectified which could have as easily been a faulty boiler part, the heat pump works very well, no real issues with getting adequate heat or hot water, even in the coldest winter we have had.
Of course, that’s my experience only, your mileage may vary but I would have no qualms about going with a heat pump again if I moved house.
I would like to formally retract that comment about going with a heat pump again. It looks very possible I will be going back to oil. Nothing to do with the performance of the heat pump technology which was great, while it worked. The unit died last week, just over 10 years from installation. The basic story is neither the installer nor the manufacturer can tell exactly what has gone wrong. The best the manufacturer can do is suggest I replace various PCBs from the internals, one at a time at £400+ each and if I replace them with no joy then they will give me a list of the next bits to try. They obviously realise this is not an acceptable solution as their recommended action is to “upgrade” to a newer model, the controller board, mounting rack and wiring for which are not compatible with my current version so must all be ripped out. Unbelievably, the replacement cost I am being quoted is actually more than a complete new installation. Taking up this offer would swallow all the ten years of savings I made on my running costs, the Govt grant I received and more. I can save a substantial amount (over £3k) of this extra cost by reinstalling an oil boiler and tank. Not sure I can afford to do anything else.
Post by: rogerzilla on 10 October, 2023, 06:54:41 am
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 10 October, 2023, 08:58:40 am
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 10 October, 2023, 10:26:49 am
When you've found one, I suggest you also buy a lottery ticket.
Post by: ian on 10 October, 2023, 12:09:15 pm
We pay a small fortune to BG for Homecare just because otherwise it's a crapshoot to get an engineer when you wake up to a cold shower.
To be fair, when our overcomplex boiler in the last house failed, it took about fifteen people who essentially replaced most of the components, until the guy from the boiler company admitted it would been cheaper and easier just to have fitted a new one. Never did find out what was wrong.
Post by: sojournermike on 10 October, 2023, 08:04:15 pm
As heat pumps are far more expensive and really need major work done to the house (much bigger rads or underfloor heating) for efficient and effective operation, won't everyone without mains gas just keep flogging old oil boilers as long as they possibly can? Typically they are used to heat older, rural, houses which are much less easy to upgrade.
I thought they'd at least harmonise the sunset dates for gas and oil. Heat pumps absolutely terrify me.
Had a heat pump for 9 years now, after replacing an oil fired combi boiler as no gas supply in the village. This is a 1930s detached bungalow with more modern extensions. Had to upgrade the energy efficiency of the house first but tbh all stuff any sensible person will already have done by now. We had to add some extra loft insulation to bring it up to the standards at the time from the 100mm or less it had in place, replaced missing draught excluder strips, adjusted leaky doors and windows to fit the openings correctly and upgrade the halogen lights to led. All these measures were sorted in a weekend of DIY and would have paid for themselves within a couple of years regardless of the heating system used.
The heat pump installer did the calculations for heat requirements of each room and recommended I upgraded 3 rads to larger sizes, I kept the same dimensions just replaced singles with doubles/triples. Not a difficult diy job or a massive cost although I had the installer do it in the end because I took the opportunity to have them move a couple of other rad locations while they were at it to ease later building work that I had planned. The biggest cost apart from the pump itself was installing a hot water cylinder which the house did not previously have. Our biggest complaint about the oil fired combi was that it simply couldn’t produce a decent hot shower at more than a trickle. Whatever solution we chose had to solve this problem which means I massively overspec’ed the tank to keep Mrs JellyLegs happy and probably doubled the cost of that element.
The heat pump was significantly more expensive than a replacement oil boiler but the RHI payments over 7 years pretty much covered the full cost of the installation plus a chunk of the additional plumbing work I detailed above as well. The annual running costs of the heating for the 9 years have proved to be slightly less than the cost of the oil it replaced, with no need for a smelly oil tank or oil boiler, and no worries about theft of the oil or oil leaks. The heat pump has less of a footprint than the oil tank although in a different location and the hot water cylinder sits where the boiler previously lived.
Once we got used to the different way of using it, and a faulty part was rectified which could have as easily been a faulty boiler part, the heat pump works very well, no real issues with getting adequate heat or hot water, even in the coldest winter we have had.
Of course, that’s my experience only, your mileage may vary but I would have no qualms about going with a heat pump again if I moved house.
I would like to formally retract that comment about going with a heat pump again. It looks very possible I will be going back to oil. Nothing to do with the performance of the heat pump technology which was great, while it worked. The unit died last week, just over 10 years from installation. The basic story is neither the installer nor the manufacturer can tell exactly what has gone wrong. The best the manufacturer can do is suggest I replace various PCBs from the internals, one at a time at £400+ each and if I replace them with no joy then they will give me a list of the next bits to try. They obviously realise this is not an acceptable solution as their recommended action is to “upgrade” to a newer model, the controller board, mounting rack and wiring for which are not compatible with my current version so must all be ripped out. Unbelievably, the replacement cost I am being quoted is actually more than a complete new installation. Taking up this offer would swallow all the ten years of savings I made on my running costs, the Govt grant I received and more. I can save a substantial amount (over £3k) of this extra cost by reinstalling an oil boiler and tank. Not sure I can afford to do anything else.
That’s a downer - what make?
They’re sold as having a 25 year life, rather than the depressingly short 7-10 years you can expect from a condensing gas boiler (ours is 9 this winter…). On that basis and given the costs, there probably ought to be a requirement, or at least an enterprising manufacturer, to provide a c.15 year warranty.
Given current daytime electricity cost vs gas, I’d need a winter COP of 4 to break even in running costs. That, of course, is because I don’t benefit from the less expensive electricity I buy due to the marginal generators setting the price.
I’m sure that a government that considered it important, that actually had the capability to get stuff done and wasn’t in hock to fossil fuels and swivel eyed science deniers could actually make some progress on the, very real, problem of install and repair competence. You could do it with incentives, it wouldn’t have to be hard lefty…
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 10 October, 2023, 08:33:42 pm
Post by: rogerzilla on 10 October, 2023, 09:41:12 pm
Post by: JellyLegs on 10 October, 2023, 09:57:19 pm
As heat pumps are far more expensive and really need major work done to the house (much bigger rads or underfloor heating) for efficient and effective operation, won't everyone without mains gas just keep flogging old oil boilers as long as they possibly can? Typically they are used to heat older, rural, houses which are much less easy to upgrade.
I thought they'd at least harmonise the sunset dates for gas and oil. Heat pumps absolutely terrify me.
Had a heat pump for 9 years now, after replacing an oil fired combi boiler as no gas supply in the village. This is a 1930s detached bungalow with more modern extensions. Had to upgrade the energy efficiency of the house first but tbh all stuff any sensible person will already have done by now. We had to add some extra loft insulation to bring it up to the standards at the time from the 100mm or less it had in place, replaced missing draught excluder strips, adjusted leaky doors and windows to fit the openings correctly and upgrade the halogen lights to led. All these measures were sorted in a weekend of DIY and would have paid for themselves within a couple of years regardless of the heating system used.
The heat pump installer did the calculations for heat requirements of each room and recommended I upgraded 3 rads to larger sizes, I kept the same dimensions just replaced singles with doubles/triples. Not a difficult diy job or a massive cost although I had the installer do it in the end because I took the opportunity to have them move a couple of other rad locations while they were at it to ease later building work that I had planned. The biggest cost apart from the pump itself was installing a hot water cylinder which the house did not previously have. Our biggest complaint about the oil fired combi was that it simply couldn’t produce a decent hot shower at more than a trickle. Whatever solution we chose had to solve this problem which means I massively overspec’ed the tank to keep Mrs JellyLegs happy and probably doubled the cost of that element.
The heat pump was significantly more expensive than a replacement oil boiler but the RHI payments over 7 years pretty much covered the full cost of the installation plus a chunk of the additional plumbing work I detailed above as well. The annual running costs of the heating for the 9 years have proved to be slightly less than the cost of the oil it replaced, with no need for a smelly oil tank or oil boiler, and no worries about theft of the oil or oil leaks. The heat pump has less of a footprint than the oil tank although in a different location and the hot water cylinder sits where the boiler previously lived.
Once we got used to the different way of using it, and a faulty part was rectified which could have as easily been a faulty boiler part, the heat pump works very well, no real issues with getting adequate heat or hot water, even in the coldest winter we have had.
Of course, that’s my experience only, your mileage may vary but I would have no qualms about going with a heat pump again if I moved house.
I would like to formally retract that comment about going with a heat pump again. It looks very possible I will be going back to oil. Nothing to do with the performance of the heat pump technology which was great, while it worked. The unit died last week, just over 10 years from installation. The basic story is neither the installer nor the manufacturer can tell exactly what has gone wrong. The best the manufacturer can do is suggest I replace various PCBs from the internals, one at a time at £400+ each and if I replace them with no joy then they will give me a list of the next bits to try. They obviously realise this is not an acceptable solution as their recommended action is to “upgrade” to a newer model, the controller board, mounting rack and wiring for which are not compatible with my current version so must all be ripped out. Unbelievably, the replacement cost I am being quoted is actually more than a complete new installation. Taking up this offer would swallow all the ten years of savings I made on my running costs, the Govt grant I received and more. I can save a substantial amount (over £3k) of this extra cost by reinstalling an oil boiler and tank. Not sure I can afford to do anything else.
That’s a downer - what make?
They’re sold as having a 25 year life, rather than the depressingly short 7-10 years you can expect from a condensing gas boiler (ours is 9 this winter…). On that basis and given the costs, there probably ought to be a requirement, or at least an enterprising manufacturer, to provide a c.15 year warranty.
Given current daytime electricity cost vs gas, I’d need a winter COP of 4 to break even in running costs. That, of course, is because I don’t benefit from the less expensive electricity I buy due to the marginal generators setting the price.
I’m sure that a government that considered it important, that actually had the capability to get stuff done and wasn’t in hock to fossil fuels and swivel eyed science deniers could actually make some progress on the, very real, problem of install and repair competence. You could do it with incentives, it wouldn’t have to be hard lefty…
The supplier is Mitsubishi who seem to produce the most efficient and most recommended air source heat pumps according to most installers. The installer doesn’t appear to be the issue, they are happy to attempt a repair at my risk and for a price, but from what I can gather Mitsubishi don’t recommend repair and aren’t being overly helpful. That doesn’t fill me with confidence that I wouldn’t just be throwing not insignificant sums of money away without getting a solution. The fact that in 10 years there have been another 7 versions of my heat pump released shows both the speed of innovation in heat pump design and possibly that there may be an urgent need to improve reliability. My pump had a stated expected lifespan of 20-25 years according to Mitsubishi when installed but only a 7 year warranty. Maybe mine just failed unexpectedly early and I have been unlucky. It’s a risk I took when I decided not to take the insurance backed care package at install and self insured. I am lucky that although it stings, I can afford to replace the system. The thing is, I can’t afford to take the risk of seven to ten years being the true lifespan of these pumps and having to replace the whole system rather than just the failed part in another decade because nothing was compatible again. That would take the total cost of ownership from substantially cheaper than oil to very substantially more expensive.
Gas isn’t an option for me, no supply to the village. My achieved COP of something above 3 over 11 years had left me quids in v oil until this nasty shock. As I say, I have no qualms with the effectiveness of the technology, but purely with what appears to be Mitsubishi’s lack of support for older models.
Post by: Kim on 10 October, 2023, 10:13:20 pm
It's not a new technology *gestures at all the countries that consider air-conditioning to be normal and ordinary*, and reliability should be very good, but that doesn't mean things won't fail (or be damaged) from time to time, and there really ought to be a better approach than installing a complete new unit (especially as many faults are likely to be something simple like a sensor or power supply capacitor). No doubt this will improve somewhat as they become more widespread and the market stabilises, but until then it would seem that you're taking the same sort of gamble on long-term support by the manufacturer as you do with internet-of-shit devices. >:(
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 10 October, 2023, 10:21:44 pm
Post by: Kim on 10 October, 2023, 10:27:35 pm
Which makes me wonder if they're badger-proof...
Post by: Jaded on 11 October, 2023, 12:00:29 am
My condensing boiler is 15 years old and absolutely fine. I don't thrash it much but the previous owner of the house, a 97 year-old, did.
You often manage to bring Rule 34 into a thread.
Post by: sojournermike on 11 October, 2023, 08:22:31 am
My condensing boiler is 15 years old and absolutely fine. I don't thrash it much but the previous owner of the house, a 97 year-old, did.
You often manage to bring Rule 34 into a thread.
Rule 34:// Mountain bike shoes and pedals have their place. On a mountain bike.
?
Post by: sojournermike on 11 October, 2023, 08:24:22 am
As heat pumps are far more expensive and really need major work done to the house (much bigger rads or underfloor heating) for efficient and effective operation, won't everyone without mains gas just keep flogging old oil boilers as long as they possibly can? Typically they are used to heat older, rural, houses which are much less easy to upgrade.
I thought they'd at least harmonise the sunset dates for gas and oil. Heat pumps absolutely terrify me.
Had a heat pump for 9 years now, after replacing an oil fired combi boiler as no gas supply in the village. This is a 1930s detached bungalow with more modern extensions. Had to upgrade the energy efficiency of the house first but tbh all stuff any sensible person will already have done by now. We had to add some extra loft insulation to bring it up to the standards at the time from the 100mm or less it had in place, replaced missing draught excluder strips, adjusted leaky doors and windows to fit the openings correctly and upgrade the halogen lights to led. All these measures were sorted in a weekend of DIY and would have paid for themselves within a couple of years regardless of the heating system used.
The heat pump installer did the calculations for heat requirements of each room and recommended I upgraded 3 rads to larger sizes, I kept the same dimensions just replaced singles with doubles/triples. Not a difficult diy job or a massive cost although I had the installer do it in the end because I took the opportunity to have them move a couple of other rad locations while they were at it to ease later building work that I had planned. The biggest cost apart from the pump itself was installing a hot water cylinder which the house did not previously have. Our biggest complaint about the oil fired combi was that it simply couldn’t produce a decent hot shower at more than a trickle. Whatever solution we chose had to solve this problem which means I massively overspec’ed the tank to keep Mrs JellyLegs happy and probably doubled the cost of that element.
The heat pump was significantly more expensive than a replacement oil boiler but the RHI payments over 7 years pretty much covered the full cost of the installation plus a chunk of the additional plumbing work I detailed above as well. The annual running costs of the heating for the 9 years have proved to be slightly less than the cost of the oil it replaced, with no need for a smelly oil tank or oil boiler, and no worries about theft of the oil or oil leaks. The heat pump has less of a footprint than the oil tank although in a different location and the hot water cylinder sits where the boiler previously lived.
Once we got used to the different way of using it, and a faulty part was rectified which could have as easily been a faulty boiler part, the heat pump works very well, no real issues with getting adequate heat or hot water, even in the coldest winter we have had.
Of course, that’s my experience only, your mileage may vary but I would have no qualms about going with a heat pump again if I moved house.
I would like to formally retract that comment about going with a heat pump again. It looks very possible I will be going back to oil. Nothing to do with the performance of the heat pump technology which was great, while it worked. The unit died last week, just over 10 years from installation. The basic story is neither the installer nor the manufacturer can tell exactly what has gone wrong. The best the manufacturer can do is suggest I replace various PCBs from the internals, one at a time at £400+ each and if I replace them with no joy then they will give me a list of the next bits to try. They obviously realise this is not an acceptable solution as their recommended action is to “upgrade” to a newer model, the controller board, mounting rack and wiring for which are not compatible with my current version so must all be ripped out. Unbelievably, the replacement cost I am being quoted is actually more than a complete new installation. Taking up this offer would swallow all the ten years of savings I made on my running costs, the Govt grant I received and more. I can save a substantial amount (over £3k) of this extra cost by reinstalling an oil boiler and tank. Not sure I can afford to do anything else.
That’s a downer - what make?
They’re sold as having a 25 year life, rather than the depressingly short 7-10 years you can expect from a condensing gas boiler (ours is 9 this winter…). On that basis and given the costs, there probably ought to be a requirement, or at least an enterprising manufacturer, to provide a c.15 year warranty.
Given current daytime electricity cost vs gas, I’d need a winter COP of 4 to break even in running costs. That, of course, is because I don’t benefit from the less expensive electricity I buy due to the marginal generators setting the price.
I’m sure that a government that considered it important, that actually had the capability to get stuff done and wasn’t in hock to fossil fuels and swivel eyed science deniers could actually make some progress on the, very real, problem of install and repair competence. You could do it with incentives, it wouldn’t have to be hard lefty…
The supplier is Mitsubishi who seem to produce the most efficient and most recommended air source heat pumps according to most installers. The installer doesn’t appear to be the issue, they are happy to attempt a repair at my risk and for a price, but from what I can gather Mitsubishi don’t recommend repair and aren’t being overly helpful. That doesn’t fill me with confidence that I wouldn’t just be throwing not insignificant sums of money away without getting a solution. The fact that in 10 years there have been another 7 versions of my heat pump released shows both the speed of innovation in heat pump design and possibly that there may be an urgent need to improve reliability. My pump had a stated expected lifespan of 20-25 years according to Mitsubishi when installed but only a 7 year warranty. Maybe mine just failed unexpectedly early and I have been unlucky. It’s a risk I took when I decided not to take the insurance backed care package at install and self insured. I am lucky that although it stings, I can afford to replace the system. The thing is, I can’t afford to take the risk of seven to ten years being the true lifespan of these pumps and having to replace the whole system rather than just the failed part in another decade because nothing was compatible again. That would take the total cost of ownership from substantially cheaper than oil to very substantially more expensive.
Gas isn’t an option for me, no supply to the village. My achieved COP of something above 3 over 11 years had left me quids in v oil until this nasty shock. As I say, I have no qualms with the effectiveness of the technology, but purely with what appears to be Mitsubishi’s lack of support for older models.
Thanks, that’s interesting. As Kim says, it becomes a barrier to adoption, even if it happens twice in 10,000 installations - that’s a general observation and not a comment on your situation of course.
Post by: felstedrider on 11 October, 2023, 09:17:22 am
Wholesale gas prices have spiked due to sabotage on the gas interconnector between Finland and Estonia.
Up a bit, but nothing compared to last Winter. They had already risen a bit as Oil had risen after the issues in Israel had moved the oil price.
Post by: rogerzilla on 11 October, 2023, 09:40:02 am
Rule 34: If it exists, there is porn of it.My condensing boiler is 15 years old and absolutely fine. I don't thrash it much but the previous owner of the house, a 97 year-old, did.
You often manage to bring Rule 34 into a thread.
Rule 34:// Mountain bike shoes and pedals have their place. On a mountain bike.
?
Post by: rogerzilla on 11 October, 2023, 09:44:25 am
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 11 October, 2023, 09:53:44 am
More likely:
dry joint (now with corrosion issues)
Cap gone; good like identifying which one
Valve wear or stickiness, and controlling circuit can't adjust
Vapour lock, from gradual buildup of gas in refrigerant
Stupid software bug (e.g. a time value badly stored and can't cope with the date)
Or something else.
None of it really out there in terms of repair difficulty.
IME, plumbers like joining pipe. They don't like diagnosing complex electronically-controlled systems.
Post by: sojournermike on 11 October, 2023, 11:15:55 am
If it has been working reliably for 7 years, I doubt the problem is the installation.
More likely:
dry joint (now with corrosion issues)
Cap gone; good like identifying which one
Valve wear or stickiness, and controlling circuit can't adjust
Vapour lock, from gradual buildup of gas in refrigerant
Stupid software bug (e.g. a time value badly stored and can't cope with the date)
Or something else.
None of it really out there in terms of repair difficulty.
IME, plumbers like joining pipe. They don't like diagnosing complex electronically-controlled systems.
I may have suggested to a colleague that joining pipes isn’t rocket science recently;)
Post by: Kim on 11 October, 2023, 01:18:53 pm
Cap gone; good like identifying which one
See, this is exactly why modern life is rubbish.
It's generally pretty straightforward to identify which one. It's usually the 400V electrolytic on the sharp end of the switching regulator. And even if it's not that one, there's a decent chance it will have deformed in a way that's easily spotted by visual inspection. And failing that, poking around in-circuit with an ESR meter usually works to detect dodgy caps. And failing that, you can just replace all of them. No deep understanding of what the circuit board is doing is required, but it does require a bit of time and soldering and not-zapping-yourself-on-charged-capacitor skills, which are beyond the scope of the average pipe-joiner.
Manufacturers don't want people doing repairs at this level, so don't provide the documentation that would make it orders of magnitude easier. They'll sell you a replacement board for hundreds, but they're not even taking the faulty one back and determining what failed. In days of yore, repair technicians would know that if the wossname refuses to start up you check the voltage at test point foo and if it's not in spec you replace C3 and try again. Now we don't have any repair technicians. Someone with the right electronics skills and equipment would cost the price of a new board, as they'd be reverse-engineering and working form first principles. And since the standard faults aren't known, they'll take two days to conclude the board's probably fine and maybe it's a plumbing problem.
Post by: rafletcher on 11 October, 2023, 01:43:51 pm
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 11 October, 2023, 03:00:57 pm
Quote
Someone with the right electronics skills and equipment would cost the price of a new board, as they'd be reverse-engineering and working form first principles.
This is the real problem.
Goods are too cheap. The world of manufacturing is too efficient at producing incredibly complex devices, very cheaply.
Post by: rogerzilla on 11 October, 2023, 03:28:00 pm
Post by: JellyLegs on 11 October, 2023, 06:46:54 pm
Post by: felstedrider on 12 October, 2023, 12:17:26 pm
1 - Ofgem have removed the Market Stabilisation Charge with effect from Mar-24. This is where the acquiring supplier has to pay the outgoing supplier a fee to cover any costs incurred from wholesale hedging. This stopped suppliers from quoting for new business.
2 - Ofgem have also removed the ban on acquisition only tariffs from Mar-24. Should hopefully bring some more new offerings to market.
Bad News
Ofgem are taking 9 months to review any applications for supply licenses. There's new entrants sat in the wings unable to enter the market. This is likely an over-reaction to them letting too many underfunded or ill-prepared people come into the sector a couple of years ago. (I think this is bad news but others may think different.
Post by: grams on 12 October, 2023, 01:33:46 pm
2 - Ofgem have also removed the ban on acquisition only tariffs from Mar-24. Should hopefully bring some more new offerings to market.
AKA freedom to overcharge anyone who doesn't want to switch providers every 6 months.
Post by: felstedrider on 12 October, 2023, 01:59:11 pm
2 - Ofgem have also removed the ban on acquisition only tariffs from Mar-24. Should hopefully bring some more new offerings to market.
AKA freedom to overcharge anyone who doesn't want to switch providers every 6 months.
The ruling means you have to offer new tariffs to your existing customer base as well as new customers. Under the price cap methodology the supplier is duly required to hedge their customer base. So the supplier has bought all of their power and gas quarter ahead and fixed those prices to the consumer. This is good risk management. If the customer then leaves after a month the supplier could lose money on any pre-hedged volume (hence the introduction of the MSC). In this instance they can't offer a new tariff to an existing customer as they'd take a loss. If Ofgem say that acquisition only tariffs are banned then the supplier is left in a stagnant position, losing money on an existing customer base but unable to grow or prevent demand erosion. It's an awful market to be in.
Again not looking to defend any market participant but there's a lot of misinformation out there and this has not got better in volatile times.
Post by: tom_e on 12 October, 2023, 02:25:49 pm
Post by: Kim on 12 October, 2023, 02:29:25 pm
Post by: felstedrider on 12 October, 2023, 03:24:10 pm
You're arguing that it's more important to minimise any financial risk to the suppliers than it is to prevent the endless fucking over of consumers with continuous tariff churn and new customer offers? I'm not sure if I've misunderstood?
Chicken and egg really. Energy supply is, in general, a loss making business. The more risks passed to the supplier, the more chance they have of folding. Nearly 30 suppliers collapsed last Winter so more customer churn was caused by suppliers going under than there would have been in a stable market. Remove or reduce the chance of suppliers collapsing and you reduce the disruption to consumers.
This assumes that you have an underlying belief that competition and consumer choice is a good thing.
It did take some pretty extreme market moves for this to happen so, had it not been for last Winter, the industry may never have had to have this discussion. Ofgem have been very, very busy for the last year but it's an over reaction for the fact that they let anybody and their dog have a supply license.
Post by: HTFB on 12 October, 2023, 04:39:06 pm
The unit died last week, just over 10 years from installation. The basic story is neither the installer nor the manufacturer can tell exactly what has gone wrong. The best the manufacturer can do is suggest I replace various PCBs from the internals, one at a time at £400+ each and if I replace them with no joy then they will give me a list of the next bits to try. They obviously realise this is not an acceptable solution as their recommended action is to “upgrade” to a newer model, the controller board, mounting rack and wiring for which are not compatible with my current version so must all be ripped out. Unbelievably, the replacement cost I am being quoted is actually more than a complete new installation. Taking up this offer would swallow all the ten years of savings I made on my running costs, the Govt grant I received and more. I can save a substantial amount (over £3k) of this extra cost by reinstalling an oil boiler and tank. Not sure I can afford to do anything else.That's atrocious! And disappointing, as they're supposed to be more robust than combi boilers, and to last more like 20 years than 10. Which manufacturer is it?
Post by: JellyLegs on 24 October, 2023, 09:08:22 pm
The unit died last week, just over 10 years from installation. The basic story is neither the installer nor the manufacturer can tell exactly what has gone wrong. The best the manufacturer can do is suggest I replace various PCBs from the internals, one at a time at £400+ each and if I replace them with no joy then they will give me a list of the next bits to try. They obviously realise this is not an acceptable solution as their recommended action is to “upgrade” to a newer model, the controller board, mounting rack and wiring for which are not compatible with my current version so must all be ripped out. Unbelievably, the replacement cost I am being quoted is actually more than a complete new installation. Taking up this offer would swallow all the ten years of savings I made on my running costs, the Govt grant I received and more. I can save a substantial amount (over £3k) of this extra cost by reinstalling an oil boiler and tank. Not sure I can afford to do anything else.That's atrocious! And disappointing, as they're supposed to be more robust than combi boilers, and to last more like 20 years than 10. Which manufacturer is it?
I mention elsewhere in the thread that it was Mitsubishi.
In other news, I have just bitten the bullet and told a local installer to rip out the heat pump, associated pipe work, control system and sundries and then supply and fit a new oil tank, lots of new pipework and boiler plus Hive controls etc. That still comes in at over £6k but that’s £4k less than the air source heat pump people wanted to replace the existing unit. I dislike myself for the environmental damage that implies but I can’t really afford the extra £4k and I certainly couldn’t afford the extra £10k plus if another heat pump failed just out of guarantee.
Post by: andyoxon on 02 November, 2023, 10:03:38 am
Post by: rafletcher on 02 November, 2023, 11:11:58 am
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 02 November, 2023, 05:01:44 pm
Post by: robgul on 02 November, 2023, 08:33:42 pm
We are obviously fortunate to be able to do that rather than needing to spread even monthly payments - and at least we aren't financing an energy company.
Post by: Afasoas on 02 November, 2023, 08:38:10 pm
Got about that stashed into a savings account to cover any winter excess.
Post by: rogerzilla on 02 November, 2023, 09:48:29 pm
Post by: Afasoas on 02 November, 2023, 10:24:56 pm
Winter excess? Like chocolate, Bailey's and pudding?
Having the heating on is a bit of a luxury :D
Post by: cygnet on 02 November, 2023, 10:38:19 pm
I've worked out a payment that is a) affordable and b) should see me neutral in about a year's time. Their calculations are demonstrably shit so I shall be ignoring those.
Post by: felstedrider on 03 November, 2023, 08:05:48 am
Ofgem have cottoned on that most suppliers use customer deposits to fund their businesses. There are proposals for ring fencing but the suppliers are against it. It’s very hard to raise debt for an energy supplier for pretty obvious reasons. It will increase bills at current interest rates. I think Ovo still pay customers interest.
Latest forecast for variable rates is that they will go up 1st Jan. Wholesale prices have bubbled up a bit recently but supply remains good overall.
Post by: Keef66 on 03 November, 2023, 11:58:59 am
Wonder if it's possible to go back to paying an actual usage monthly bill by DD and avoid all this nonsense?? We're not on a tight budget so could easily cope with the variable outgoings
Post by: Paul H on 03 November, 2023, 02:33:05 pm
Views on energy account balance; credit / debit levels at diff times of year? Currently based on our recommended monthly £DD payment, we (they) have 2.25x our monthly DD £ as credit, this having just reduced due to recent meter reading.I'm about 4X which feels about right for me, I pretty much double my consumption in the winter, elec only. Hopefully I've enough credit to cover that, I'll look again in April and adjust accordingly. Despite being in credit, I get regular suggestions from BP to increase the DD by 50% based on estimated usage, I politely decline, I'd rather base it on history than estimates.
Post by: felstedrider on 23 November, 2023, 09:01:40 am
This from Ofgem, not as tucked away as it usually is :-
From 1 January 2024 Price Cap average direct debit unit rates for energy;
ELECTRICITY
Unit rate: 28.62p per kWh
Standing charge: 53.35p per day
GAS
Unit rate: 7.42p per kWh
Standing charge: 29.60p per day
These are caps on unit rates plus the standing charge (not a cap on total bills)
Post by: rogerzilla on 23 November, 2023, 09:40:27 am
Post by: felstedrider on 23 November, 2023, 09:57:35 am
At least they haven't increased the exorbitant standing charge any more. Are we still paying for Bulb? A back of the envelope calculation suggests the increase in standing charge since Bulb went titsup has raked in an extra £5bn on electricity alone.
I suspect some of the supplier failure costs are still being recouped, but there's not been one for a while. To be fair, there aren't many left. The exact terms of the Octopus/Bulb deal have not been disclosed but I suspect that there was a lot of Government funding negotiated as they were the last player left who could or were willing to move that many customers.
Ofgem have announced a review of standing charges in the last couple of weeks. It seems that a lot of grid investment costs are making their way into the standing charge as well. Moving costs into the variable rate would distribute the costs more fairly but we'll need to watch this space.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67431758
Post by: matthew on 23 November, 2023, 10:00:31 am
Ofgem have announced a review of standing charges in the last couple of weeks. It seems that a lot of grid investment costs are making their way into the standing charge as well. Moving costs into the variable rate would distribute the costs more fairly but we'll need to watch this space.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67431758
I may be wrong, but I thought the standing charge was meant to pay for the infrastructure, the bit we need whether it is used or not and the variable charge was supposed to pay for the generation.
Post by: felstedrider on 23 November, 2023, 10:14:38 am
Ofgem have announced a review of standing charges in the last couple of weeks. It seems that a lot of grid investment costs are making their way into the standing charge as well. Moving costs into the variable rate would distribute the costs more fairly but we'll need to watch this space.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67431758
I may be wrong, but I thought the standing charge was meant to pay for the infrastructure, the bit we need whether it is used or not and the variable charge was supposed to pay for the generation.
Oh yeah. It's this exactly. The suppliers pass on the charges they get so if there's standing distribution charges then these will be passed to the end user. For Ofgem to change the way that customers are charged they will need to change the way that industry charges the suppliers.
The suppliers could bundle the whole cost into the unit rate, and this was used as a sales strategy for a while, but :-
1 - You run the risk of the customer using less and making a loss.
2 - The Price Cap methodology doesn't currently allow for this.
Post by: rogerzilla on 29 November, 2023, 08:09:32 am
Post by: rogerzilla on 30 November, 2023, 10:50:33 am
Post by: Paul H on 30 November, 2023, 11:19:33 am
If you're a low user, the standing charge is horrendous. It's 27% of my bill on an annual basis (I pay £95/month). I imagine someone in a small energy-efficient flat could be paying 50%.The standing charge in my electric only small flat is around 25% of my winter bill and 40%+ for the other nine months. It is what it is, but in percentage terms it has hit the lower users harder. A couple of years ago I was paying £8 a month more for the entire bill than I'm currently paying for the standing charge.
Post by: phantasmagoriana on 30 November, 2023, 02:01:34 pm
Current rates:
Electricity
Unit rate 25.02p per Kilowatt hour
Standing charge 36.11p per day
Gas
6.33p per Kilowatt hour
Standing charge 24.88p per day
The standard variable rate I'll move to if I do nothing (I'm with Ovo) is:
Electricity
Unit rate 26.89p/kWh
Standing charge 61.67p/day
Gas
Unit rate 6.85p/kWh
Standing charge 29.11p/day
Fixed options are fractionally higher. But I'm confused - the current price cap is 53.37p for electricity, so how can they charge 61.67p? ???
Whatever I do, I'm fairly sure I'm going to see a big increase in bills, but the electricity standing charge seems huge...
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 30 November, 2023, 04:32:25 pm
See here for regional rates
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/what-are-the-price-cap-unit-rates-/#unitrates
That page quotes the average price cap rates and the regional rates for now and also from January.
Post by: phantasmagoriana on 30 November, 2023, 04:45:57 pm
Because the price cap SC you quote is an average and you're in Scotland, I suspect
See here for regional rates
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/what-are-the-price-cap-unit-rates-/#unitrates
So it is! :o I hadn't realised. That's a bit rubbish.
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 30 November, 2023, 04:52:31 pm
Post by: felstedrider on 30 November, 2023, 08:02:14 pm
The cap goes up in Jan as wholesale prices bumped up at the end of the assessment window. They have largely retreated since then and we’re then into the Summer season. I can’t see the incentive to fix unless customers think prices will roof again. The start up supplier I met earlier in the week is only offering variable rates.
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 30 November, 2023, 10:21:16 pm
Post by: felstedrider on 30 November, 2023, 10:31:01 pm
I fixed gas last month but mainly because I don't trust Pootin or some other head case/tyrant/whatever not to kick off something even more bonkers next year.
In general the gas market has had most of the bad news it’s likely to get. Storage is at healthy levels.
The risk for the rest of this Winter is just around weather. Sustained cold would cause a problem as there’s not that much slack. Longer term the risk is around LNG flows. If demand and prices in Asia pick up then the movement could go that way instead of to Europe.
Post by: Mr Larrington on 04 December, 2023, 01:16:06 pm
Post by: felstedrider on 04 December, 2023, 01:37:46 pm
Just had a letter from Ovo saying they’re sorry I'm leaving and can we have £42 please. Since I've never bought electricity, or indeed anything else, from them I'm a bit puzzled.
Erroneous transfers are all too common. Check the supply address and the meter references (MPAN/MPRN). They could have accidentally transferred you in and out and sent a bill based on estimates.
Post by: Mr Larrington on 04 December, 2023, 01:46:58 pm
Post by: Kim on 04 December, 2023, 01:55:09 pm
Post by: felstedrider on 04 December, 2023, 04:09:02 pm
Yeah, I just want to be doubly sure so how about you read them out to me ?
An old boss of mine had this happen and he was passed to 'the erroneous transfers team'. I recall him talking about when a thing happened so often as to need a team to tidy it up.
Post by: Auntie Helen on 04 December, 2023, 05:17:35 pm
Hive tells me that the indoor temperature fell from 19.3 deg C to 16.1 deg C between 0000 and 0600, when it was between -1 and 1 outside. That's pretty average for a UK home. But we are the worst in Europe. It wouldn't be much over a 1 degree drop in Germany. However, Germany is colder in winter so it's always been more important to insulate well. Also, their housing stock is much newer, partly because of us ;)Housing stock is also newer because new houses are considered good here (because of the insulation). My chap’s former house was from the 1970s which was a bit old, he said. My previous house had been from 1871 so that was good, I told him newer houses in the UK have walls made of cheese. It’s a weird mental switch I have to make to think new=good
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 04 December, 2023, 05:37:52 pm
Could this be an illustration of "progress"? I probably wouldn't know, I've been in Britain too long~Hive tells me that the indoor temperature fell from 19.3 deg C to 16.1 deg C between 0000 and 0600, when it was between -1 and 1 outside. That's pretty average for a UK home. But we are the worst in Europe. It wouldn't be much over a 1 degree drop in Germany. However, Germany is colder in winter so it's always been more important to insulate well. Also, their housing stock is much newer, partly because of us ;)Housing stock is also newer because new houses are considered good here (because of the insulation). My chap’s former house was from the 1970s which was a bit old, he said. My previous house had been from 1871 so that was good, I told him newer houses in the UK have walls made of cheese. It’s a weird mental switch I have to make to think new=good
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 05 December, 2023, 07:37:35 pm
https://consult.gov.scot/energy-and-climate-change-directorate/proposals-for-a-heat-in-buildings-bill
Post by: felstedrider on 16 February, 2024, 11:42:21 am
https://www.cornwall-insight.com/predictions-and-insights-into-the-default-tariff-cap/
Unit rates are now very slightly below the 3yr fix I took out at the end of 2021. Standing charges remain higher, though. It's marginal and there's exit fees on my deal, but I think it means we won't see step up in costs at the end of the contract.
Post by: jsabine on 17 February, 2024, 10:03:43 pm
Post by: Jasmine on 13 March, 2024, 12:04:10 pm
What that fails to say is that the standing charge is going up, again. North Wales daily charge is now 62.2p a day. For me, that's over a third of the bill. All the fixed deals have super high standing charges, so penalise low energy users.
Post by: Lightning Phil on 13 March, 2024, 12:23:22 pm
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 13 March, 2024, 04:51:15 pm
Post by: Wombat on 13 March, 2024, 06:06:14 pm
"Good news, energy prices are going down on 1 April"In my case I think its over half the bill, certainly in the summer. In summer we normally use between 0.5 and 1 kWh, on account of the solar PV and the battery storage. And this is in a house with electrically pumped water supply, and no gas. It seems a lot to pay, for the privilege of being able to send them the electricity I generate but don't use. At least since the battery installation there is less export, but previously we exported over twice what we actually used. Thanks to the resistance to allowing the battery to actually power the house in a power cut, we were without, for a couple of hours today, as some twat mangled a power pole a little way away.
What that fails to say is that the standing charge is going up, again. North Wales daily charge is now 62.2p a day. For me, that's over a third of the bill. All the fixed deals have super high standing charges, so penalise low energy users.
It does rather peeve me, losing generation because we are disconnected during a power cut. I must investigate what it takes to allow it acting as backup, but it certainly won't be by the cretins who installed the battery system.
Post by: HTFB on 13 March, 2024, 08:48:00 pm
Or I suppose you could have two inverters, connecting mains->DC and DC->house, so you need never be synchronised at all.
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 13 March, 2024, 09:23:30 pm
Post by: aidan.f on 13 March, 2024, 09:51:10 pm
Another gotcha is putting essential circuits onto your spangly new battery inverter without some sorta manual bypass back to mainz if your spangly battery inverter fails or you simply want to service it.
Post by: grams on 13 March, 2024, 09:54:06 pm
Most of them aren't specced for powering a whole house, or easy to integrate.
Post by: Kim on 13 March, 2024, 10:31:15 pm
[1] I have a UPS that operates as described by grams; does AC->DC->AC until the supply is in spec, then throws a relay to bypass mode to improve efficiency.
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 14 March, 2024, 11:23:29 am
For years, we lived on a boat connected to shore power. Power fed an inverter/charger, which charged batteries and supplied 240AC to the boat circuit. If the incoming supply failed, it simply switched over.
The switchover was so smooth, we didn't even notice that the mains power had gone one evening. Computers were running at the time and didn't glitch.
We had a 1200W version of one of these: https://www.victronenergy.com/inverters-chargers/multiplus-12v-24v-48v-800va-3kva (https://www.victronenergy.com/inverters-chargers/multiplus-12v-24v-48v-800va-3kva)
That Victron could take mains input, generator input or DC (from alternator, turbine or PV)
Post by: Wombat on 15 March, 2024, 01:10:33 pm
You need significantly fancier kit to let you fail over to battery-only supply, as the house AC and the mains AC need to be exactly synchronised if ever they are connected together. I think our battery and inverter are "just another" circuit in thefuseboxconsumer unit, alongside the kitchen sockets and whatnot. A system that keeps going during a power cut would also need a chunky great off-switch relay on the mains side of the consumer unit, so that once the house has been separated from the mains there is no chance at all of the two coming back together until the appropriate gubbins has done its wizardry to bring them back in phase.
Or I suppose you could have two inverters, connecting mains->DC and DC->house, so you need never be synchronised at all.
I've already got the monster isolating switch, because the house was fitted with a generator input point before we moved in, as its a (very) rural area, and the supply is a bit flaky. We do also have an Ecoflow Delta 2 portable battery, which in the last power cut (caused by "3rd party damage" to a pole (probably a farmer with a loader shovel) kept our internet alive, and also made coffee for us.
Post by: chrisbainbridge on 15 March, 2024, 06:03:51 pm
Post by: slope on 15 March, 2024, 06:23:26 pm
I still live in the same place and the cost of providing leccy down the cables is surelise, known and predicatable for periods of at least a few months - regardless of the wholesale cost of the actual domestic leccy?
Am with Scottish Power (here in rural North Wales ???) and of course having been on Standard Variable since that became default a couple? of years back.
But now there's a couple of fixed rate 1 year options available. And the daily Standard Charge is 4.83 pence less with the new "Help Beat Cancer Flexi May 2025 TM1" (snappy title) - as opposed to staying on the Standard Variable (from 01/04/2024 when the cap changes) - which will become new daily Standing Charge of 67.03p
Is there any hope for the ordinary citizen to make sense of it all?
Post by: geoff on 20 March, 2024, 02:07:36 pm
This has just reminded me to look up my Octopus bills, and indeed although my usage is visible in their app (suggesting they can read the meter) they don't appear to have billed me for electricity since November, which is when I asked them to put the gas on a fixed tariff...Octopus did something similar to me a year ago when a fixed deal expired, resulting in a £2500 variable leccy charge for Dec 22 to Mar 23
You need to watch them like the proverbial hawk: I'm still arguing with them now.
Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk
Post by: geoff on 20 March, 2024, 02:11:38 pm
Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk
Post by: Mrs Pingu on 20 March, 2024, 04:38:46 pm
This has just reminded me to look up my Octopus bills, and indeed although my usage is visible in their app (suggesting they can read the meter) they don't appear to have billed me for electricity since November, which is when I asked them to put the gas on a fixed tariff...Octopus did something similar to me a year ago when a fixed deal expired, resulting in a £2500 variable leccy charge for Dec 22 to Mar 23
You need to watch them like the proverbial hawk: I'm still arguing with them now.
They reason they hadn't billed was because they were missing some half hourly readings on several days and they needed to go in and charge them at the variable rate rather than the Flux rate, apparently. Surprised their software doesn't do this automatically.
Post by: HTFB on 20 March, 2024, 04:55:52 pm
BTW...anyone know a good source for Octopus's historical tariff rates? Their own website advertises such, but is resistant to searching/filtering, and I would prefer an independent source if possibleThe website offers an API, if you have the fu.
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Post by: Mrs Pingu on 20 March, 2024, 04:57:09 pm
https://energy-stats.uk/download-historical-pricing-data/
Post by: geoff on 21 March, 2024, 01:40:59 pm
BTW...anyone know a good source for Octopus's historical tariff rates? Their own website advertises such, but is resistant to searching/filtering, and I would prefer an independent source if possibleThe website offers an API, if you have the fu.
Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk
Try here
https://energy-stats.uk/download-historical-pricing-data/
Thanks both...! much appreciated!
The energy.stats.uk site didn't include my tariff, but the API proved a mind of usefulness, from which I got some price info
https://developer.octopus.energy/docs/api/.
Another helpful link for the Octopus API is: https://www.guylipman.com/octopus/
(Think they owe me over a grand!)
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 25 March, 2024, 05:25:59 pm
Quote
Domestic energy prices could be capped based on the time of day that households use their appliances, the regulator Ofgem has said.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68655725
The watchdog said it has launched early discussions about a "dynamic" price cap that changes as consumers became more flexible.
Several people here have said this would be a long-term consequence/goal of smart meters. But where does it leave those of us without such meters (they came to fit one here and it was impossible)? As there doesn't seem to be any other way of knowing the time a unit of electricity was consumed.
Post by: HTFB on 25 March, 2024, 09:25:05 pm
Post by: Flite on 26 March, 2024, 08:40:16 am
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz9zqn77ezno
CEO of Octopus on radio this morning.
Companies more interested in installing meters to meet govt targets and no incentive to make sure they work.
How unexpected.
Our smart meter was installed by Octopus about 3 years ago and after teething problems it did work on and off for a while.
Stopped 2-3 months ago. We keep reminding them we are on 3-phase.
We stayed in for the fitter a couple of weeks ago, but he wasn't certificated to fix 3-phase meters.
He said Octopus only have three 3-phase certificated in N. England.
He said it costs £250 to upgrade the engineers to 3-phase.
Still waiting.....
Post by: Polar Bear on 26 March, 2024, 08:43:00 am
Some people might be shocked to learn that dumb meters give readings too.
Post by: grams on 26 March, 2024, 09:02:56 am
Also the horror stories appear to be from shitty tinpot suppliers who can’t do basic admin and very little to do with smart meters.
We remain on a dumb meter. We have cheap rate overnight
Economy 7 is being phased out.
Post by: rogerzilla on 26 March, 2024, 09:27:09 am
My mother's house was newly built last year. Only one of the smart meters works. I have to give my own readings for gas.
Post by: Polar Bear on 26 March, 2024, 09:41:17 am
That BBC article also says the proportion of working smart meters is increasing.
Also the horror stories appear to be from shitty tinpot suppliers who can’t do basic admin and very little to do with smart meters.We remain on a dumb meter. We have cheap rate overnight
Economy 7 is being phased out.
The RTS element of economy 7 is being phased out. Our meter is a relatively modern multi rate meter that does not rely upon RTS.
Post by: Flite on 26 March, 2024, 09:51:18 am
Quote
Also the horror stories appear to be from shitty tinpot suppliers who can’t do basic admin and very little to do with smart meters.I would not put Octopus in that category. We are happy with other aspects of the company
Quote
The people who complain about being overcharged because of non-working smart meters obviously don't have the nous to press a button and give a customer reading.We make sure we are not overcharged!
Quote
We have cheap rate overnightA flat cheap overnight like Economy7 doesn't suit our usage.
But we are on a tarriff that gives cheap rate at some times of day, medium rate for most of the day, and a high rate at one peak period.
We wanted the smart meter so we could monitor how well (or not) that works for us, as we can cancel at any time.
Post by: Kim on 26 March, 2024, 12:52:45 pm
The people who complain about being overcharged because of non-working smart meters obviously don't have the nous to press a button and give a customer reading.
It's not that simple. After our smart meters were first installed, I stopped submitting readings because I was under the mistaken impression that the monthly readings shown on my bills were obtained via the Shiny! New! smart meters, and not some random number generator. (The meters were working fine, but something was amiss in the centralised database thing that sends readings to the supplier.)
I'm now more cynical, but "your supplier will pretend they're getting meter readings when they aren't" is the sort of thing you learn the hard way.
Octopus at least make it clear that they're getting consumption data.
Post by: mrcharly-YHT on 26 March, 2024, 12:59:10 pm
Repeated calls to the energy supplier have failed:
They can't update the smart meter charging amounts.
They can't tell us over the phone, or email or post a document showing how much we are being charged.
We have to wait for a bill.
Post by: barakta on 26 March, 2024, 05:03:23 pm
Post by: Kim on 26 March, 2024, 05:05:23 pm
We have the situation where the smart meter doesn't 'know' the rate that we are being charged. So it has a 'you have spent £xxx this week on electricity' display, but that is wrong.
And I'm betting that if you set it to show kWh, it'll revert to cost after 30 seconds or something daft...
Post by: Lightning Phil on 26 March, 2024, 06:47:28 pm
The people who complain about being overcharged because of non-working smart meters obviously don't have the nous to press a button and give a customer reading.
Broken can include being non responsive to button presses. It’s a computer with code written by someone. It can fail in the myriad ways computers do.
Post by: Socks on 26 March, 2024, 07:01:18 pm
These companies don't build and maintain the distribution network. They don't generate the energy. They just act as the middlemen. And they can't even do that!
Post by: Feanor on 26 March, 2024, 07:04:24 pm
Ever since they 'upgraded' their system, the meters have become un-smart.
They broke something in the chain of readings-reporting, and can't fix it.
They say they are working to fix the issue, but it's been about a year, so I'm not hopeful.
Looking to change supplier anyway.
Would someone like Octopus be able to 'fix' the problem with the smart meter reporting?
(in the manner of AAISP)
Or would they have to replace the meters?
Post by: Kim on 26 March, 2024, 07:08:00 pm
They're probably the closest thing to AAISP in the energy supplier business, in that they have an interest in developing the systems they use, but are obviously not in the same league.
Post by: rafletcher on 26 March, 2024, 07:34:56 pm
Post by: Feanor on 26 March, 2024, 08:10:14 pm
I had to manually enter the meter MPAN / MPRN numbers because they could not pick them up, but it's done now.
This might have been the issue with BG: They had the wrong postcode for the flat.
It was previously an office building, that's been demolished. It had a postcode.
The new-build flats all got new postcodes.
But when I bought the place and simply took over the supply from the incumbent supplier BG, I could not register an account with the new postcode. I had to use the old one. They had not updated their postcode database. And so it has been ever since; I have the wrong old postcode with BG. There's no way to fix that, AFAIK.
This might be at the root of their woes.
I suspect that when they 'updated' their system, they picked up a new postcode database, and now Things Didn't Match.
But they have no staff who can fix that.
It's off-script for the call-centre staff, and they have no-one they can escalate to. There is no second-level support.
All they can do is drop out of the bottom of their script with an "else: Our engineers are working diligently to resolve the issue!", which they know is bollocks; there are no engineers.
The company doesn't care; it's not a major dent in their revenue, and it only marginally increases the churn.
They might get paid incentives to install the smart meters, but they don't care if they work or not, that's not incentivised.
Having to read the things is a cost to the customer, not the company.
Anyways, Octopus now have the correct postcode and MPAN / MPRN numbers.
Post by: Polar Bear on 26 March, 2024, 08:11:22 pm
They want a meter reading.
Hmmm. Dials and waits for over 20 minutes. The conversation starts after the formalities:
Me: Didn't you install smart meters in January?
BG: Yes.
Me: So, why do you need a manual reading?
BG: Er, it appears that there is an issue with the smart meter ...
I have suggested that they send a meter reader as well as somebody to diagnose and fix the fault.
I couldn't have made the timing of this up if I had tried 🤣🤣🤣
Post by: rr on 31 March, 2024, 09:01:45 am
They had the wrong postcode for the flat.
It was previously an office building, that's been demolished. It had a postcode.
The new-build flats all got new postcodes.
These things are a nightmare, at the moment, at work, I am dealing with a converted office building where a ground floor's address is a different street to the upper floors, not to mention a very different postcode.