Author Topic: BCM (and other classic brevets) record  (Read 15026 times)

arabella

  • عربللا
  • onwendeð wyrda gesceaft weoruld under heofonum
Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #75 on: 23 April, 2021, 12:47:46 pm »
There are lots of ways you can challenge yourself without audax changing. 

In which way?

Leaving out the Mille+  things, which are not for me... I think the only current event that would be an interesting challenge is the Pendle 600. I almost pressed the button to enter twice... just been deterred by Hardknott and Wrynose, not much the ascent, but the idea of descending after 24 hours in the saddle... it was scary enough with a functioning brain
If you are after more of a challenge, and aren't interested in longer rides (why not?  wrong sort of challenge?) then think about how your bike would compare with what was around when audax started.  Most likely it weighs less.  So get a heavier bike or add a brick to your saddlebag (there are other anti-weight-weeny options I'm sure).  Or have fewer and more widely spaced gears (or, if you are on fixed, get a longer/lower gear).  I've been reliably informed that there is a fairly high correlation between shininess/weight-weeniness (or not) and how early folks arrive at a control. 
You will then have bragging rights about being closer to audax roots.


You could ask what's the point of adding a time element to Audax. It is what it is. Plenty of other opportunities to race, if that's what you want to do.
Not really... there are already time limits... 15-30 km/h... it's just a question of narrowing the range to make the challenge more interesting... maybe 25-30 km/h or something. Doesn't have to affect others.
I'd disagree that 'having to go faster' == 'more interesting'.
If the minimum speed is 25kph it certainly will affect others - anyone who can't maintain an overall 25kph speed (inc stopping times).  Which is quite a lot of people (I don't think I've ever managed more than 20kph).  I refer you back to my previous comment about not handing in your brevet card if you haven't gone fast enough for your own liking.
Any fool can admire a mountain.  It takes real discernment to appreciate the fens.

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #76 on: 23 April, 2021, 01:29:08 pm »

If you are after more of a challenge, and aren't interested in longer rides (why not?  wrong sort of challenge?) then think about how your bike would compare with what was around when audax started.  Most likely it weighs less.  So get a heavier bike or add a brick to your saddlebag (there are other anti-weight-weeny options I'm sure).  Or have fewer and more widely spaced gears (or, if you are on fixed, get a longer/lower gear).  I've been reliably informed that there is a fairly high correlation between shininess/weight-weeniness (or not) and how early folks arrive at a control. 
You will then have bragging rights about being closer to audax roots.


Distance brings a different set of skills, which I am not interested in... like how to avoid saddle sores, how to avoid your hands going numb, how to avoid collapsing at the side of the road due to sleep deprivation, how to avoid constipation, how to force feed yourself when you can no longer eat, how to wipe your bum when you have to go in the wild... It's all stuff that has little to do with riding a bike hard. I found a 600 was long enough, if not too long already. For example, a very fast 24 hour time triallist, is unlikely to be also at the very top end of a Transcontinental Race an viceversa, just completely different skillsets within the same "long distance cycling" label.

I have a 1980 bike, it's pretty much the same ride as my carbon bike, except I have slightly bigger gears. I think my PB on a 10 mile TT is very close. I don't think that going back further and learning to ride an ordinary would satisfy my hunger for challenge to be honest. Besides, old bikes bring in problems that you can no longer fix, due to parts being unavailable.

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #77 on: 23 April, 2021, 01:30:56 pm »

I'd disagree that 'having to go faster' == 'more interesting'.
If the minimum speed is 25kph it certainly will affect others - anyone who can't maintain an overall 25kph speed (inc stopping times).  Which is quite a lot of people (I don't think I've ever managed more than 20kph).  I refer you back to my previous comment about not handing in your brevet card if you haven't gone fast enough for your own liking.

It wouldn't have to be 25-30 for all... I think it would be interesting to be able to sign up for a sub-challenge within the same brevet, totally discretionary. But, as I said, I don't think Audax is the platform for fast paced long distance cycling

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #78 on: 23 April, 2021, 01:41:14 pm »
And - oddly - AUK do publish some 'winning' Arrows distance achievements.  See here (click on either of the Arrow headings):
https://audax.uk/results/annual-awards/arrows-darts-trails/


I think my name is in there somewhere, just to prove that I have won an audax event.

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #79 on: 23 April, 2021, 01:48:20 pm »
Mine too. I think I also came last though, so it's swings and roundabouts arrows.

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #80 on: 23 April, 2021, 01:55:48 pm »
I will bring back the "Audax is a broad church" saying.

Some are there for the cake and the company, some are there to see if they can still finish in time, some are there for the views and the adventure and some are there to be the "first one back"... I don't see why the latter has to be frowned upon.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #81 on: 23 April, 2021, 01:55:52 pm »
Everybody gets their name on an arrow trophy eventually it seems, even me. Mind you, I’ve also been on an incorrectly DQed arrow team, so swings and all that.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #82 on: 23 April, 2021, 02:02:11 pm »
Everybody gets their name on an arrow trophy eventually it seems, even me. Mind you, I’ve also been on an incorrectly DQed arrow team, so swings and all that.
You've ruined my sense of achievement!

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #83 on: 23 April, 2021, 02:19:05 pm »
I will bring back the "Audax is a broad church" saying.

Some are there for the cake and the company, some are there to see if they can still finish in time, some are there for the views and the adventure and some are there to be the "first one back"... I don't see why the latter has to be frowned upon.

Because its not a race

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #84 on: 23 April, 2021, 02:27:33 pm »
I will bring back the "Audax is a broad church" saying.

Some are there for the cake and the company, some are there to see if they can still finish in time, some are there for the views and the adventure and some are there to be the "first one back"... I don't see why the latter has to be frowned upon.

Because its not a race

Which of course you realise immediately when you're not handed a trophy... what if you want to be the first one back anyway? What's wrong with that?
Many of us like to be the first on top of a hill in a club run and that's not a race either... so what?

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #85 on: 23 April, 2021, 03:46:42 pm »
a very fast 24 hour time triallist, is unlikely to be also at the very top end of a Transcontinental Race an viceversa, just completely different skillsets within the same "long distance cycling" label.

Wrong yet again, I'm afraid! 

Just off the top of my head:
Two 24-hr winners - Ultan Coyle and Stuart Bernie (Hippy) - have ridden the TCR.  Ultan came fourth and Hippy has been in the top 10.  Rimas / Zigzag did the first TCR then rocked up for the 24 as his first TT and did 479.
James Hayden has TT'd, with a 46 as his 25 PB.  He's not done the 24 but it's on his agenda at some point.

People who are fast over one distance tend to be fast over other distances. 

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #86 on: 23 April, 2021, 04:09:00 pm »
In the late 70's and early 80's I split my season between short distance TT's and Audax and rode the West Pennine's NW Passage 200k every year (February) as base training and usually completed it in under 8-hours.  I can clearly remember riding with some top roadman from Manchester Wheelers over the last 50-60k (the hilly part) and doing more than my fair share on the front and it was me that was riding the Dawes super galaxy (steel) bike compared to the other guy's much lighter road bike.  We finished first (and second) and un-beknown to us, we were being chased by a group containing Mandy Jones (later to become World Road Race Champion), Ian Greenhalgh and others that came in about half an hour behind us.  Whilst this did set me up to build some speed training, I could never do any good in longer distance events (100's) even though I went training with Ian Cammish one time.

I always wanted to do a 12-hour and thought that the speed from shorter distance time trials together with some fast 200k and 300k events would be ideal, but sadly it was never to be.

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #87 on: 23 April, 2021, 04:16:48 pm »
a very fast 24 hour time triallist, is unlikely to be also at the very top end of a Transcontinental Race an viceversa, just completely different skillsets within the same "long distance cycling" label.

Wrong yet again, I'm afraid! 

Just off the top of my head:
Two 24-hr winners - Ultan Coyle and Stuart Bernie (Hippy) - have ridden the TCR.  Ultan came fourth and Hippy has been in the top 10.  Rimas / Zigzag did the first TCR then rocked up for the 24 as his first TT and did 479.
James Hayden has TT'd, with a 46 as his 25 PB.  He's not done the 24 but it's on his agenda at some point.

People who are fast over one distance tend to be fast over other distances.

You will find athletes who can manage both reasonably well, but if you excel at one, you are unlikely to excel at the other. Different skillsets, completely different events. I can't see lapping an A road at 25 mph as being anywhere near the same thing as having to plot a route across unknown roads to go from A to B.
Speed helps in both events, but that's where the similarities end.
Anyway, that's Lynne Taylor's opinion too... I think she has done quite a few 24 TT, among other things...  ::-)

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #88 on: 23 April, 2021, 05:35:43 pm »
I will bring back the "Audax is a broad church" saying.

Some are there for the cake and the company, some are there to see if they can still finish in time, some are there for the views and the adventure and some are there to be the "first one back"... I don't see why the latter has to be frowned upon.

Because its not a race

Which of course you realise immediately when you're not handed a trophy... what if you want to be the first one back anyway? What's wrong with that?
Many of us like to be the first on top of a hill in a club run and that's not a race either... so what?

It isn't frowned upon to be first back. Somebody has to be first back. Its frowned upon to boast about it.

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #89 on: 23 April, 2021, 06:22:58 pm »
I will bring back the "Audax is a broad church" saying.

Some are there for the cake and the company, some are there to see if they can still finish in time, some are there for the views and the adventure and some are there to be the "first one back"... I don't see why the latter has to be frowned upon.

Because its not a race

Which of course you realise immediately when you're not handed a trophy... what if you want to be the first one back anyway? What's wrong with that?
Many of us like to be the first on top of a hill in a club run and that's not a race either... so what?

It isn't frowned upon to be first back. Somebody has to be first back. Its frowned upon to boast about it.

Makes sense...

I've peeped through the calendar but didn't find anything that took my fancy, so I signed up for the Etape du Dales instead...  :o

cygnet

  • I'm part of the association
Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #90 on: 23 April, 2021, 06:31:34 pm »
a very fast 24 hour time triallist, is unlikely to be also at the very top end of a Transcontinental Race an viceversa, just completely different skillsets within the same "long distance cycling" label.

Wrong yet again, I'm afraid! 

Just off the top of my head:
Two 24-hr winners - Ultan Coyle and Stuart Bernie (Hippy) - have ridden the TCR.  Ultan came fourth and Hippy has been in the top 10.  Rimas / Zigzag did the first TCR then rocked up for the 24 as his first TT and did 479.
James Hayden has TT'd, with a 46 as his 25 PB.  He's not done the 24 but it's on his agenda at some point.

People who are fast over one distance tend to be fast over other distances.

You will find athletes who can manage both reasonably well, but if you excel at one, you are unlikely to excel at the other. Different skillsets, completely different events. I can't see lapping an A road at 25 mph as being anywhere near the same thing as having to plot a route across unknown roads to go from A to B.
Speed helps in both events, but that's where the similarities end.
Anyway, that's Lynne Taylor's opinion too... I think she has done quite a few 24 TT, among other things...  ::-)

You're setting an unreachable standard if coming 1st in one and 4th in the other is "managing reasonably well".
I Said, I've Got A Big Stick

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #91 on: 23 April, 2021, 06:51:32 pm »
a very fast 24 hour time triallist, is unlikely to be also at the very top end of a Transcontinental Race an viceversa, just completely different skillsets within the same "long distance cycling" label.

Wrong yet again, I'm afraid! 

Just off the top of my head:
Two 24-hr winners - Ultan Coyle and Stuart Bernie (Hippy) - have ridden the TCR.  Ultan came fourth and Hippy has been in the top 10.  Rimas / Zigzag did the first TCR then rocked up for the 24 as his first TT and did 479.
James Hayden has TT'd, with a 46 as his 25 PB.  He's not done the 24 but it's on his agenda at some point.

People who are fast over one distance tend to be fast over other distances.

You will find athletes who can manage both reasonably well, but if you excel at one, you are unlikely to excel at the other. Different skillsets, completely different events. I can't see lapping an A road at 25 mph as being anywhere near the same thing as having to plot a route across unknown roads to go from A to B.
Speed helps in both events, but that's where the similarities end.
Anyway, that's Lynne Taylor's opinion too... I think she has done quite a few 24 TT, among other things...  ::-)

You're setting an unreachable standard if coming 1st in one and 4th in the other is "managing reasonably well".

Maybe, but isn't it the case that in TCR, it's 3 or 4 who are there to win it and the rest are there to set some personal targets?

cygnet

  • I'm part of the association
Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #92 on: 23 April, 2021, 07:36:10 pm »
 That could be applied to any event in any sport though. (Inc the Nat 24hr)

Re the PBP comments upthread. In 2019 they gave out medals at the finish and posted out a sticker with the time on it later. In earlier years they validated the results and then posted out the medals engraved with the time

It's possible to have been given a medal, and be recorded HD. (LEL did similar in 2017)

Edit: speeling
I Said, I've Got A Big Stick

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #93 on: 23 April, 2021, 08:00:02 pm »
That could be applied to any event in any sport though. (Inc the Nat 24hr)


True...

I guess my point is that if you win one and you finish 4th in the other and in both cases you are only really racing 3, because the rest don't have the same FTP/Kg, VO2 max and only make up numbers, then it doesn't prove that you excel at both. It just proves that you are a superior athlete to most, but you are excellent at one discipline, not so much at the other.


Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #94 on: 23 April, 2021, 08:37:57 pm »
It's possible to have been given a medal, and be recorded HD. (LEL did similar in 2017)

LEL had a specific policy of giving a medal to everyone who completed the route.

Medals at PBP were only given out after someone had had a good look at your brevet, though I don't what the policy was.

cygnet

  • I'm part of the association
Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #95 on: 23 April, 2021, 08:50:24 pm »
Yes, I was handing them out in the endgame.

I still remember one HD chap from India bursting into tears when I gave him his.
I Said, I've Got A Big Stick

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #96 on: 24 April, 2021, 05:20:13 am »
That could be applied to any event in any sport though. (Inc the Nat 24hr)


True...

I guess my point is that if you win one and you finish 4th in the other and in both cases you are only really racing 3, because the rest don't have the same FTP/Kg, VO2 max and only make up numbers, then it doesn't prove that you excel at both. It just proves that you are a superior athlete to most, but you are excellent at one discipline, not so much at the other.

It really doesn't prove anything I'm afraid.

Your assertion that only 3-4 people are racing the TCR or 24 shows a profound lack of understanding of what you are talking about and is insulting to those who take part.

For any race there are favourites and the TCR and 24 are no different. But just because someone isn't likely to win doesn't mean they aren't racing, against their pb or club record, their own limitations, against their friends, against the target they need to hit to get back to work, etc. In the races you do, just because you are not in the top 3 doesn't mean you are not racing, and the TCR and 24 are exactly the same in that respect.

 Lynne might not fancy the TCR, which is fine - I'm not saying there's a perfect overlap. But having done both, I can tell you based on experience that the events have many similarities.

Geriatricdolan

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #97 on: 24 April, 2021, 06:22:08 am »


 Lynne might not fancy the TCR, which is fine - I'm not saying there's a perfect overlap. But having done both, I can tell you based on experience that the events have many similarities.

It was in the context of the End to End record... basically her point is that someone with a 24 TT pedigree is far more likely to be successful at the record than someone with a TCR pedigree, because the skillset involved is more aligned.
Which obviously I can only agree with.
Neither the 24 nor the End to End involves managing time off and on the bike, which is a skill you need for TCR. Navigation, mapping, self sufficiency are obvious differences... the "engine" required is probably very different, the fact that Fiona won with a large margin means you don't need an FTP > 5 W/kg in TCR, but it's probably the very minimum you need to win a 24 TT (guessing here). The fact that the competition itself is not split by gender shows you that it's a very different event from time trialling, where it would be unthinkable.

Anyway, digressing...

Davef

BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #98 on: 24 April, 2021, 07:04:22 am »


 Lynne might not fancy the TCR, which is fine - I'm not saying there's a perfect overlap. But having done both, I can tell you based on experience that the events have many similarities.

It was in the context of the End to End record... basically her point is that someone with a 24 TT pedigree is far more likely to be successful at the record than someone with a TCR pedigree, because the skillset involved is more aligned.
Which obviously I can only agree with.
Neither the 24 nor the End to End involves managing time off and on the bike, which is a skill you need for TCR. Navigation, mapping, self sufficiency are obvious differences... the "engine" required is probably very different, the fact that Fiona won with a large margin means you don't need an FTP > 5 W/kg in TCR, but it's probably the very minimum you need to win a 24 TT (guessing here). The fact that the competition itself is not split by gender shows you that it's a very different event from time trialling, where it would be unthinkable.

Anyway, digressing...
You seem to be saying it can’t be a proper race if a girl won it. As you increase the “ultraness” of events gender differences decrease. Look at Elizabeth Barnes in ultra running.

Re: BCM (and other classic brevets) record
« Reply #99 on: 24 April, 2021, 09:05:37 am »
Navigation, mapping, self sufficiency are obvious differences... the "engine" required is probably very different, the fact that Fiona won with a large margin means you don't need an FTP > 5 W/kg in TCR, but it's probably the very minimum you need to win a 24 TT (guessing here).

Noooooooo. W/kg is generally derived from FTP which is how much power you can put out by killing yourself in an hour.

Unsurprisingly, the longer the event, the less relevant that particular metric is, but that doesn't mean winning isn't largely dependent on how much power you can put out on average over the period of the race. Fiona won by being a very fast bike rider.