Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => Topic started by: Hot Flatus on 14 September, 2021, 04:59:37 pm
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....probably
https://cyclingtips.com/2021/09/shimano-105-di2-r7100-is-coming/
Confirmed that 11sp mech Ultegra only continued for a year, then no more cables.
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Quick, lock the thread!
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Can you edit the title to add “Some random guy with column inches to fill and zero insider information sez”?
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Not sure James Huang is a random guy, but there is a distinct lack of actual news in that article.
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Some controversial opinions in that article:
However, it also seems clear that the entry point for drop-bar riding is now gravel bikes, not traditional road bikes
Some feathers will ruffle! ;)
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Not sure James Huang is a random guy, but there is a distinct lack of actual news in that article.
I think it’s what you’d call an educated guess, no?
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Huang is pretty well-connected. He's about as far from 'a random guy' as it gets in cycling journalism.
I don't think he is writing this just to pass the time.
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105 is the new Ultegra. Well, it will be when the new generation is announced. No problem with that - R7000 105 is arguably better than any Ultegra before R8000, and it's certainly no hardship to use it. It also makes sense that Shimano maintains a mechanical 105 option as it introduces Di2. From the article, it looks like the price gap between the mechanical and electronic 105 will be larger on release than it currently is between mech and elec Ultegra, but I wonder how long that large gap will survive market forces?
As the author points out, Sram haven't attempted to update their mechanical groupsets in parallel with their electronic ones, and Red 22 is now 8 years old. Shimano are kind of following that trend for the higher-level groupsets. Looking at the street prices of Sram Rival AXS, I'd expect 105 Di2 to settle at around £1100-1200, which - if it happens - is a very compelling offer. R7000 105 mech/disc is currently around £700, and I'd hope that the 12-speed iteration wouldn't be much more. At that kind of price, 12-speed becomes relatively easily achievable (yes, I'm aware that we are talking quite a lot of money here).
The supply issues that are distorting the market (worldwide) just now will not be with us for ever, and I'd anticipate that the competitive status quo will resume within the next year. The product names may be different, but the product standard available for a given price is continuing to improve.
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Problem is, there is a huge leap in price to Di2 (compare mechanical amd electronic Ultegra), so they're pricing a lot of people out of the market. I have absolutely zero interest in electronic shifting, anyway. It doesn't solve any problems for me. If they could invent a self-cleaning drivetrain, *that* would be attractive.
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Problem is, there is a huge leap in price to Di2 (compare mechanical amd electronic Ultegra), so they're pricing a lot of people out of the market. I have absolutely zero interest in electronic shifting, anyway. It doesn't solve any problems for me. If they could invent a self-cleaning drivetrain, *that* would be attractive.
Rolhoff with chaincase or belt drive. Job done.
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Problem is, there is a huge leap in price to Di2 (compare mechanical amd electronic Ultegra), so they're pricing a lot of people out of the market. I have absolutely zero interest in electronic shifting, anyway. It doesn't solve any problems for me. If they could invent a self-cleaning drivetrain, *that* would be attractive.
It solves the problem of degraded shifting. No need to change outers and inners every year or so.
The rest is, I agree, more moot.
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Problem is, there is a huge leap in price to Di2 (compare mechanical amd electronic Ultegra), so they're pricing a lot of people out of the market. I have absolutely zero interest in electronic shifting, anyway. It doesn't solve any problems for me. If they could invent a self-cleaning drivetrain, *that* would be attractive.
Out of which market? That of high end groupsets?
I run 105 mechanical (and lower) so it makes no odds to me, but I assume they would place electronic 105 around where mechanical Ultegra was, meaning they still hit the same price-points, just with a different balance between electronic and mechanical.
I can see how it would solve the problems my daughter has with shifting (tiny hands), but there's no way I'm putting electronic shifting on her bike! :)
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It will price people out when/if they cease making mechanical shifting at 105 and below. Or to view it another way, it will shift the point at which mid-range becomes high-end from Ultegra to 105 or Tiagra or wherever they get to. Unless they can produce electronic shifting for mechanical prices, which maybe they will be able to in bulk.
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I'm sure electronic shifting already is cheaper to manufacture. Just a question of marketing as to what level they sell it for.
So it will soon trickle down to the cheaper groupsets. And probably some cheap Chinese copies, which could be compatible with the Shimano stuff.
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Problem is, there is a huge leap in price to Di2 (compare mechanical amd electronic Ultegra), so they're pricing a lot of people out of the market. I have absolutely zero interest in electronic shifting, anyway. It doesn't solve any problems for me. If they could invent a self-cleaning drivetrain, *that* would be attractive.
I disagree. Those who would buy mechanical 105 will still be able to, and at much the same price, but it will be 12-speed (current disc 105 here (https://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-105-r7020-disc-groupset)). Di2 105 is likely to be considerably cheaper than the current Ultegra Di2 (see here (https://www.merlincycles.com/shimano-ultegra-r8070-di2-disc-brake-11-speed-groupset-110283.html?utm_source=PHG&utm_medium=AffiliateMarketing&utm_campaign=phg-GB&source=PHG)). And by 'considerably' I mean somewhere in the order of £700+ cheaper. That brings Di2 to a whole new market, as Rival AXS has done already. You won't be able to buy mechanical Ultegra but, frankly, I doubt too many will worry about that - R7100 mechanical 105 will be at least as good as the current R8000 mechanical Ultegra.
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I'm sure electronic shifting already is cheaper to manufacture. Just a question of marketing as to what level they sell it for.
So it will soon trickle down to the cheaper groupsets. And probably some cheap Chinese copies, which could be compatible with the Shimano stuff.
Absolutely.
It is usually easier to predict the long term future than the road by which we get there - and less risk of being proven wrong any time soon!
In 10-15 years time:
- Gears will be like watches. Virtually every bike will have electronic gears, mainly because it is cheaper but also a bit better for most people as well. There might be might be some high end mechanical systems for particular niches such as retro
- Shifters will be cheaper than they are now. Most relevant patents will have expired (that is what stops copies of Di2, etc, not engineering challenges) so there will be low-cost options.
The challenges for Shimano et al are:
- to delay the inevitable as long as they can
- invent more new stuff to justify/support premium pricing
- manage the lifecycle of Di2 to maximise their profits
Basically the same challenges that companies which design and manufacture things have always faced.
So they will try to keep electronic priced at a premium to mechanical as long as they can. The main purpose of high-end mechanical at this point is probably not to make money (hence no investment in it and few people buy it) but to support the price of electronic - to give it something to be premium to.
They will also try to patent all sorts of different things to defend Di2 as long as possible - but it won't work. At some point the dam will break and good alternatives will be available for surprisingly little money. Archer is something like $300 for rear-only, but they are not manufacturing at scale. Maybe it will be more like £100 for front and rear shifters within 5 years.
This will be great for the utility market but Shimano and the others will make sure that there are some things that it cannot do so that it is not great for high end. And the fashion gatekeepers will hate it!
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Knowing SFA about Di2 other than that I can't afford it, I've just been through this https://bettershifting.com/di2-for-dummies-beginners-guide-to-di2-manual/ and decided that I don't want it either. I had a shufti at the latest Ultegra DM as well. Jesus wept: more connectors to get screwed up, little blobby external doo-hickeys to get in the way, more real estate on the frame/handlebars usurped, and bloody wee blinkenlichts to be kept an eye on.
Colour me Luddite. I'm going to lay in a big enough stock of cables and shifter covers to last me until I croak.
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You charge the battery every thousand miles.
If you can't remember how many you've ridden you press any shifter button for a few seconds and you get a battery level readout. Green=OK. Red= not OK. Red and green= almost not OK.
And that's it.
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Knowing SFA about Di2 other than that I can't afford it, I've just been through this https://bettershifting.com/di2-for-dummies-beginners-guide-to-di2-manual/ and decided that I don't want it either. I had a shufti at the latest Ultegra DM as well. Jesus wept: more connectors to get screwed up, little blobby external doo-hickeys to get in the way, more real estate on the frame/handlebars usurped, and bloody wee blinkenlichts to be kept an eye on.
Colour me Luddite. I'm going to lay in a big enough stock of cables and shifter covers to last me until I croak.
Di2 (and Sram ETAP) uses no more 'real estate' than mechanical groupsets - less, as there's no cabling at all in ETAP, and none on the bars with the new Di2. The old Di2 (and the new 105 Di2 is likely to be similar) has a very simple wiring layout that's much easier than mechanical cabling to install. And it never needs adjusting. As HF says, charging is required about every 1000km. It's as easy as charging your phone. It's expensive compared to mechanical shifting, but it is far better. And, as Frank says, it's likely to be the default choice before too long - and a lot cheaper.
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I put Di2 Ultegra on my last build just to try it out. It's different but not sufficiently better that I would do it again.
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Knowing SFA about Di2 other than that I can't afford it, I've just been through this https://bettershifting.com/di2-for-dummies-beginners-guide-to-di2-manual/ and decided that I don't want it either. I had a shufti at the latest Ultegra DM as well. Jesus wept: more connectors to get screwed up, little blobby external doo-hickeys to get in the way, more real estate on the frame/handlebars usurped, and bloody wee blinkenlichts to be kept an eye on.
Colour me Luddite. I'm going to lay in a big enough stock of cables and shifter covers to last me until I croak.
Di2 (and Sram ETAP) uses no more 'real estate' than mechanical groupsets - less, as there's no cabling at all in ETAP, and none on the bars with the new Di2. The old Di2 (and the new 105 Di2 is likely to be similar) has a very simple wiring layout that's much easier than mechanical cabling to install. And it never needs adjusting. As HF says, charging is required about every 1000km. It's as easy as charging your phone. It's expensive compared to mechanical shifting, but it is far better. And, as Frank says, it's likely to be the default choice before too long - and a lot cheaper.
The Ultegra DM shows various positions for charging points etc., one of which is on the end of the bars, and another on a doo-hickey zip-tied to the bars or under the stem. Sorry, space already taken.
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I put Di2 Ultegra on my last build just to try it out. It's different but not sufficiently better that I would do it again.
Wait until its 6 years old and it still shifts like new, without ever having had to recable, lube cable, change outers (ballache if internal) or adjust indexing. You might feel different about it....I did.
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Knowing SFA about Di2 other than that I can't afford it, I've just been through this https://bettershifting.com/di2-for-dummies-beginners-guide-to-di2-manual/ and decided that I don't want it either. I had a shufti at the latest Ultegra DM as well. Jesus wept: more connectors to get screwed up, little blobby external doo-hickeys to get in the way, more real estate on the frame/handlebars usurped, and bloody wee blinkenlichts to be kept an eye on.
Colour me Luddite. I'm going to lay in a big enough stock of cables and shifter covers to last me until I croak.
Di2 (and Sram ETAP) uses no more 'real estate' than mechanical groupsets - less, as there's no cabling at all in ETAP, and none on the bars with the new Di2. The old Di2 (and the new 105 Di2 is likely to be similar) has a very simple wiring layout that's much easier than mechanical cabling to install. And it never needs adjusting. As HF says, charging is required about every 1000km. It's as easy as charging your phone. It's expensive compared to mechanical shifting, but it is far better. And, as Frank says, it's likely to be the default choice before too long - and a lot cheaper.
The Ultegra DM shows various positions for charging points etc., one of which is on the end of the bars, and another on a doo-hickey zip-tied to the bars or under the stem. Sorry, space already taken.
New DI2 has no Doohickey. The brake levers have coin cells that are supposed to last a year, and the chargepoint for the rest of it is on the derailleur.
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The Ultegra DM shows various positions for charging points etc., one of which is on the end of the bars, and another on a doo-hickey zip-tied to the bars or under the stem. Sorry, space already taken.
The new system has the charging point in the rear mech. Sram ETAP has detachable (and interchangeable) mech batteries. If you want to find objections to it, of course you can - and the expense will be the major one for most people. However, once you've lived with it, it's very hard to go back! I still have mechanical groupsets from all three major manufacturers on some of my bikes, and they're great. But there's no pretending they're as easy to use or live with as the electronic versions.
Edit: my Sram Red ETAP 'Wide-Fi' (the second version of the first generation ETAP) is on its original shifter batteries two years in. They're still fine, though I should probably replace them soon.
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The Ultegra DM shows various positions for charging points etc., one of which is on the end of the bars, and another on a doo-hickey zip-tied to the bars or under the stem. Sorry, space already taken.
The new system has the charging point in the rear mech.
Out of curiosity, what kind of connnector are they using for the charging port, and how water/crud proof does it seem given it's exposed location?
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There is a picture of the charging port on this (https://www.bikeradar.com/news/shimano-dura-ace-di2-r9200/?image=2&type=gallery&gallery=2&embedded_slideshow=2) page (BikeRadar). I've no idea of its weatherproofing, but I'd be very surprised if it hasn't been thoroughly tested. I assume the new XTR is the same, and that is likely to have to deal with far worse!
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Problem is, there is a huge leap in price to Di2 (compare mechanical amd electronic Ultegra), so they're pricing a lot of people out of the market. I have absolutely zero interest in electronic shifting, anyway. It doesn't solve any problems for me. If they could invent a self-cleaning drivetrain, *that* would be attractive.
Oooooo. Now you're talking !
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In the motorbike world they have a thing called X-ring chains which are sealed units, internally lubricated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-ring_chain.
Also roller chains made from plastic exist.
If somebody was to invent a bicycle chain that needed no lubrication and was simply replaced at say 5,000 or 10,000 km intervals I think they would be on to a winner, as long as it was as efficient as a steel chain.
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I put Di2 Ultegra on my last build just to try it out. It's different but not sufficiently better that I would do it again.
Wait until its 6 years old and it still shifts like new, without ever having had to recable, lube cable, change outers (ballache if internal) or adjust indexing. You might feel different about it....I did.
Mine is 3 years old and I do need to adjust the gearing as the last 3 cogs at the bottom end doesn't run smoothly. I must have a second attempt at sorting it I suppose.
I'd be happy if it were still all down tube friction shifters, of which I still have 2 bikes set up that way.
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Well, yes, if you are happy with downtube cable shifters then you probably wouldn't particularly value what Di2 offers.
What I'm saying is that Di2 grew on me. I bought a bike with Di2, hydro discs and tubeless tyres 6 years ago, and of all three technologies Di2 was the one that I felt was a bit meh. The shifting was not really better than my (super skilled) mechanical efforts.
However, a few years later I really understood the benefits and in particular on a winter bike where cable shifting degrades pretty quickly of you ride in all weathers.
I'm not sure it's particularly worth it on a summer bike (much like tubeless)
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I've never bought a bike with Di2. I build my bikes from whatever components I feel are appropriate and I can afford and want to try, and I upgrade them from time to time. The first bike I put Di2 on was my summer Boardman SLS, several years ago, and I was immediately impressed with its accuracy and speed of shifting compared to the 105 5700 it came with (which was transferred to my son's Cannondale). I then built a Boardman Air TT with the same Ultegra 6850 Di2 groupset. Having the ability to change gears from both riding positions was great, but TTs turned out not to be my thing and that one sits unloved in the back of the garage!
My next foray into electronic gears was my Ritchey Break-Away, which has travelled with me to many parts of the world since I originally built it in 2009. I'd suffered a few times with problems related to travel - bent gear hangers, everything out of adjustment, the faff of reconnecting and disconnecting cables on every trip. The Ritchey is probably my favourite bike, and when Red ETAP came out I saw it as the answer to many of the problems of travelling with a de-constructable bike. It was some time before I could afford it, but eventually I splashed out - and it transformed the experience. The ability to not just not have to reconnect cables (Bowden or electric), but to be able to remove vulnerable bits like the rear mech without worrying about having to set it up again after it was replaced, made taking the bike away so much more pleasurable. The fact that the kit performs so well is a bonus, but it is (or was) an expensive luxury even compared to Ultegra Di2, and I won't be replacing it with AXS now I'm retired.
The last bike I built before retirement was intended for a LEJoG attempt (which advancing arthritis has unfortunately nixxed), and that uses Ultegra Di2 8050. The upgrade to the firmware which allows total customisation of the gear-changing logic was something of a revelation, and I've had many happy hours playing with the possibilities. I like the simple logic of Sram's setup, and I can kind of replicate that, though I've tried it and gone back to traditional Shimano mapping. The map that allows the kit to decide which mech moves when you want to change up or down (to achieve the smallest ratio change) is fascinating, as is the logic which prevents extreme cross-chaining - which is a bit of a life- (or chain-) saver when you're using an 11-42 on the back, as I am. The new Di2 looks to have extended the options. It's unlikely I'll be buying it unless I have to replace an existing set up, or decide to buy an off-the-peg bike with it, but I shall certainly enjoy testing it when I get the opportunity to borrow one from my LBS!
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Knowing SFA about Di2 other than that I can't afford it, I've just been through this https://bettershifting.com/di2-for-dummies-beginners-guide-to-di2-manual/ and decided that I don't want it either. I had a shufti at the latest Ultegra DM as well. Jesus wept: more connectors to get screwed up, little blobby external doo-hickeys to get in the way, more real estate on the frame/handlebars usurped, and bloody wee blinkenlichts to be kept an eye on.
Colour me Luddite. I'm going to lay in a big enough stock of cables and shifter covers to last me until I croak.
Di2 (and Sram ETAP) uses no more 'real estate' than mechanical groupsets - less, as there's no cabling at all in ETAP, and none on the bars with the new Di2. The old Di2 (and the new 105 Di2 is likely to be similar) has a very simple wiring layout that's much easier than mechanical cabling to install. And it never needs adjusting. As HF says, charging is required about every 1000km. It's as easy as charging your phone. It's expensive compared to mechanical shifting, but it is far better. And, as Frank says, it's likely to be the default choice before too long - and a lot cheaper.
The Ultegra DM shows various positions for charging points etc., one of which is on the end of the bars, and another on a doo-hickey zip-tied to the bars or under the stem. Sorry, space already taken.
New DI2 has no Doohickey. The brake levers have coin cells that are supposed to last a year, and the chargepoint for the rest of it is on the derailleur.
That sounds better. Hardly worth 4k€, though.
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My next foray into electronic gears was my Ritchey Break-Away, which has travelled with me to many parts of the world since I originally built it in 2009. I'd suffered a few times with problems related to travel - bent gear hangers, everything out of adjustment, the faff of reconnecting and disconnecting cables on every trip.
It would be great if electronic shifting could sense somehow that the gear hanger was out of line and adjust the movements of the mech accordingly. Perhaps it could (perhaps at some point it will?) be done with some sort of NFC chips marking each end of the cassette; the shifters or the mech would know the spacing and hey presto! Obviously an extremely bent hanger would still be a problem but minimal amounts might not be a problem cos the mech would be moving relative to the sprockets, not to its starting point. That and the self-cleaning drive chain please!
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I'm sure it's do-able. And if it is demanded by the pros, it would filter down to regular users soon enough. Especially the self-cleaning chain (even more if it cleaned the cassette too!).
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Pros are never going to demand a self-cleaning chain – they have team mechanics for that! Though maybe in cyclocross?
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I'm never going to buy electronic shifting, too old and don't cycle enough.
However, I can see massive advantages over brifters.
brifters, whether they are shimano, campag or whoever are mechanically complex, very difficult to repair and fail catastrophically.
An electronic switch is going to be vastly simpler (the switch should be cheaper, it will be cheaper to make), easier to replace if broken and (probably) be upgradeable.
There is a small amount of extra complexity at the changer end, but not a lot.
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My next foray into electronic gears was my Ritchey Break-Away, which has travelled with me to many parts of the world since I originally built it in 2009. I'd suffered a few times with problems related to travel - bent gear hangers, everything out of adjustment, the faff of reconnecting and disconnecting cables on every trip.
It would be great if electronic shifting could sense somehow that the gear hanger was out of line and adjust the movements of the mech accordingly. Perhaps it could (perhaps at some point it will?) be done with some sort of NFC chips marking each end of the cassette; the shifters or the mech would know the spacing and hey presto! Obviously an extremely bent hanger would still be a problem but minimal amounts might not be a problem cos the mech would be moving relative to the sprockets, not to its starting point. That and the self-cleaning drive chain please!
This is pretty much how it works already. You set it to the middle sprocket and it knows the spacing and how many sprockets you have, so should never over-shift in either direction (there are still limit screws on the mech though). And unlike cables, it will never wear or stretch, so should always stay true. If it goes out of alignment for some reason, you can put it into adjustment mode by holding the button and then use the shifters to move it in small increments until is realigned. You can do this while riding.
That said, the only time I've had a problem with Di2 was, I suspect, due to a bent hanger - not my fault, it was an ex-test bike and I suspect had received some fairly brutal treatment. I shifted into lowest gear at the start of a steep climb and the rear mech got fouled in the wheel, wrecking it. Very expensive to replace, alas, but since I didn't pay for the bike, that took some of the sting out of it.
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The Ultegra DM shows various positions for charging points etc., one of which is on the end of the bars, and another on a doo-hickey zip-tied to the bars or under the stem. Sorry, space already taken.
The new system has the charging point in the rear mech.
Out of curiosity, what kind of connnector are they using for the charging port, and how water/crud proof does it seem given it's exposed location?
Not seen the new connect but I suspect it will be the same/similar to the connector on the bar end or stem box. simple 2 pin with a push cover.
I have replaced the pads on my hydraulic ultra but have no idea what to do about the hydraulics but then I have not adjusted the car hydraulics since replacing all the brake pipes on a MG Midget in the snow in 1982
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I have a question, which has probably been answered but perhaps not in this thread. Are different varieties of Di2 compatible? Can you use eg DA shifters with a 105 mech, if they're both 12-speed? And what is it that decides whether it's 12-speed, 11-speed or whatever: is it the shifters or the mechs, or both? Could you for instance pair a supposedly 11-speed older Di2 shifter with a new 12-speed mech and it would work? What about the other way round?
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I'm sure it's do-able. And if it is demanded by the pros, it would filter down to regular users soon enough. Especially the self-cleaning chain (even more if it cleaned the cassette too!).
Pros are told what they are going to ride, not vice versa I’m afraid.
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I have a question, which has probably been answered but perhaps not in this thread. Are different varieties of Di2 compatible? Can you use eg DA shifters with a 105 mech, if they're both 12-speed? And what is it that decides whether it's 12-speed, 11-speed or whatever: is it the shifters or the mechs, or both? Could you for instance pair a supposedly 11-speed older Di2 shifter with a new 12-speed mech and it would work? What about the other way round?
For values of.
I don't know how it works with mixing 12 speed and 11 speed. But within 11 speed you can mix and match. As long as both derailleur match. So you can use two xtr mechs with ultegra shifters. Or visa versa. Or as i do, XT mechs with Dura ace shifters.
J
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I have a question, which has probably been answered but perhaps not in this thread. Are different varieties of Di2 compatible? Can you use eg DA shifters with a 105 mech, if they're both 12-speed? And what is it that decides whether it's 12-speed, 11-speed or whatever: is it the shifters or the mechs, or both? Could you for instance pair a supposedly 11-speed older Di2 shifter with a new 12-speed mech and it would work? What about the other way round?
For values of.
I don't know how it works with mixing 12 speed and 11 speed. But within 11 speed you can mix and match. As long as both derailleur match. So you can use two xtr mechs with ultegra shifters. Or visa versa. Or as i do, XT mechs with Dura ace shifters.
J
So you can't have eg XT at the front and DA at the back even if all 12 speed? I knew Shimano would find a way to complicate things!
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I have a question, which has probably been answered but perhaps not in this thread. Are different varieties of Di2 compatible? Can you use eg DA shifters with a 105 mech, if they're both 12-speed? And what is it that decides whether it's 12-speed, 11-speed or whatever: is it the shifters or the mechs, or both? Could you for instance pair a supposedly 11-speed older Di2 shifter with a new 12-speed mech and it would work? What about the other way round?
For values of.
I don't know how it works with mixing 12 speed and 11 speed. But within 11 speed you can mix and match. As long as both derailleur match. So you can use two xtr mechs with ultegra shifters. Or visa versa. Or as i do, XT mechs with Dura ace shifters.
J
So you can't have eg XT at the front and DA at the back even if all 12 speed? I knew Shimano would find a way to complicate things!
Nope... This is Shimano afterall. Why be compatible with yourself?
J
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AIUI an advantage of Sram stuff is that it is compatible with itself (for same number of speeds). No mountain/road artificial division. Though I won't be surprised to here this is no longer the case either.
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I have a question, which has probably been answered but perhaps not in this thread. Are different varieties of Di2 compatible? Can you use eg DA shifters with a 105 mech, if they're both 12-speed? And what is it that decides whether it's 12-speed, 11-speed or whatever: is it the shifters or the mechs, or both? Could you for instance pair a supposedly 11-speed older Di2 shifter with a new 12-speed mech and it would work? What about the other way round?
From my limited reading so far it seems that it is not possible to mix and match 11 and 12 speed DI2 systems. Whether this is software or hardware is not clear, but it’s ‘interesting’ that the rim brake 12 speed kit will be wired only whereas the disc brake kit will use wireless shifters.
The availability of rim brake kits to the aftermarket remains to be seen. It’s not going to the ISA iirc and may be focused on a fossil fuel sponsored race team. However, the wire only does make me wonder if it’s an application for the current levers with the new mechs and battery?
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AIUI an advantage of Sram stuff is that it is compatible with itself (for same number of speeds). No mountain/road artificial division. Though I won't be surprised to here this is no longer the case either.
I don't like the wireless nature of the SRAM stuff. If wireless stops working debugging is essentially witchcraft. Where as with wired you can start with simple stuff "is it all plugged in?" And go from there.
J
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There must be some cross compatibility 11vs 12 speed because they won't be making new TT shifters - they will plug into the 12 speed kit like they used to with the 11.
They are changing the cables, but I think there must be some sort of converter cable for this purpose.
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You can physically connect any of the old shifters via a cable size adapter but only the TT ones are supported on 12 speed systems according to the compatibility chart.
I would expect any other non 12 speed parts to not work, which is a bit shit.
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I have a question, which has probably been answered but perhaps not in this thread. Are different varieties of Di2 compatible? Can you use eg DA shifters with a 105 mech, if they're both 12-speed? And what is it that decides whether it's 12-speed, 11-speed or whatever: is it the shifters or the mechs, or both? Could you for instance pair a supposedly 11-speed older Di2 shifter with a new 12-speed mech and it would work? What about the other way round?
From my limited reading so far it seems that it is not possible to mix and match 11 and 12 speed DI2 systems. Whether this is software or hardware is not clear, but it’s ‘interesting’ that the rim brake 12 speed kit will be wired only whereas the disc brake kit will use wireless shifters.
The availability of rim brake kits to the aftermarket remains to be seen. It’s not going to the ISA iirc and may be focused on a fossil fuel sponsored race team. However, the wire only does make me wonder if it’s an application for the current levers with the new mechs and battery?
ISA?
Perhaps they're using the old wired shifters on the new 105 kit.
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AIUI an advantage of Sram stuff is that it is compatible with itself (for same number of speeds). No mountain/road artificial division. Though I won't be surprised to here this is no longer the case either.
I don't like the wireless nature of the SRAM stuff. If wireless stops working debugging is essentially witchcraft. Where as with wired you can start with simple stuff "is it all plugged in?" And go from there.
J
Seems like wireless is the way it's all going though.
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I have a question, which has probably been answered but perhaps not in this thread. Are different varieties of Di2 compatible? Can you use eg DA shifters with a 105 mech, if they're both 12-speed? And what is it that decides whether it's 12-speed, 11-speed or whatever: is it the shifters or the mechs, or both? Could you for instance pair a supposedly 11-speed older Di2 shifter with a new 12-speed mech and it would work? What about the other way round?
From my limited reading so far it seems that it is not possible to mix and match 11 and 12 speed DI2 systems. Whether this is software or hardware is not clear, but it’s ‘interesting’ that the rim brake 12 speed kit will be wired only whereas the disc brake kit will use wireless shifters.
The availability of rim brake kits to the aftermarket remains to be seen. It’s not going to the ISA iirc and may be focused on a fossil fuel sponsored race team. However, the wire only does make me wonder if it’s an application for the current levers with the new mechs and battery?
ISA?
Perhaps they're using the old wired shifters on the new 105 kit.
I believe 105 Di2 is fully-wired, as per 8050/70 and 9150/70, though it'll use the new, smaller, E-tube connections. I would expect all the 12-speed Di2 components to be cross-compatible, so I'm surprised to see suggestions they might not be - though front mechs will undoubtedly need to match the crankset size.
The rim-brake 12-speed shifters are apparently the 11-speed items cosmetically updated and made compatible with the new wiring (they are not wireless). The rim brakes are the 9100 items with a slightly different finish. The same applies respectively to Ultegra 8100. There is no reason to believe that the rim brakes would not be available as a separate item.
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You can physically connect any of the old shifters via a cable size adapter but only the TT ones are supported on 12 speed systems according to the compatibility chart.
I would expect any other non 12 speed parts to not work, which is a bit shit.
Given that the shifter is just a button. And that there is firmware in there. You'd think they could just so a firmware update so people can mix and match. How long will we be able to get a spare 11 speed shifter for ? If you damage one shifter of an 11 speed setup. You'll have to replace the whole groupset.
This is my biggest bugbear with Shimano. The intentional incompatibility. That and their gear ratios being too high...
J
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I have a question, which has probably been answered but perhaps not in this thread. Are different varieties of Di2 compatible? Can you use eg DA shifters with a 105 mech, if they're both 12-speed? And what is it that decides whether it's 12-speed, 11-speed or whatever: is it the shifters or the mechs, or both? Could you for instance pair a supposedly 11-speed older Di2 shifter with a new 12-speed mech and it would work? What about the other way round?
From my limited reading so far it seems that it is not possible to mix and match 11 and 12 speed DI2 systems. Whether this is software or hardware is not clear, but it’s ‘interesting’ that the rim brake 12 speed kit will be wired only whereas the disc brake kit will use wireless shifters.
The availability of rim brake kits to the aftermarket remains to be seen. It’s not going to the ISA iirc and may be focused on a fossil fuel sponsored race team. However, the wire only does make me wonder if it’s an application for the current levers with the new mechs and battery?
ISA?
Perhaps they're using the old wired shifters on the new 105 kit.
I believe 105 Di2 is fully-wired, as per 8050/70 and 9150/70, though it'll use the new, smaller, E-tube connections. I would expect all the 12-speed Di2 components to be cross-compatible, so I'm surprised to see suggestions they might not be - though front mechs will undoubtedly need to match the crankset size.
The rim-brake 12-speed shifters are apparently the 11-speed items cosmetically updated and made compatible with the new wiring (they are not wireless). The rim brakes are the 9100 items with a slightly different finish. The same applies respectively to Ultegra 8100. There is no reason to believe that the rim brakes would not be available as a separate item.
I was more concerned that it might be difficult to buy the 12 speed rim brake shifter part of the kit. I’ve read that the rim brake groupsets will not be going to the USA. Hopefully, once it settles down we’ll be fine here and stuff will be available. QG has a fair point about how long 11 speed will be supported at the higher end of the ranges.
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And where does GRX fit into it all ?
J
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Given that the shifter is just a button. And that there is firmware in there. You'd think they could just so a firmware update so people can mix and match. How long will we be able to get a spare 11 speed shifter for ?
It’s a computer that sends a data packet. My understanding is the TT shifters will be getting a firmware update and nothing else will be recognised.
If you damage one shifter of an 11 speed setup. You'll have to replace the whole groupset.
Or buy NOS or secondhand on ebay. Same as for every other groupset and doodad.
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Given that the shifter is just a button. And that there is firmware in there. You'd think they could just so a firmware update so people can mix and match. How long will we be able to get a spare 11 speed shifter for ?
It’s a computer that sends a data packet. My understanding is the TT shifters will be getting a firmware update and nothing else will be recognised.
If you damage one shifter of an 11 speed setup. You'll have to replace the whole groupset.
Or buy NOS or secondhand on ebay. Same as for every other groupset and doodad.
How long before the net is filled with dubious hacks for reconfiguring Di2 (and other makers/models) software, complete with spam and malware? There must be a bit of scope for reverse-engineering this stuff (and given the prices it might even be a reasonably profitable market!).
How long also before someone brings out a classically designed (70's Campag clone for example) mechanical groupset complete with friction shifters, dodgy caliper brakes etc, retailing at DA 9200 prices minus just a tiny bit? ("Handmade, as it really is, you know it must be right, sir, just look at that design...") :o :o
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Well, yes, if you are happy with downtube cable shifters then you probably wouldn't particularly value what Di2 offers.
What I'm saying is that Di2 grew on me. I bought a bike with Di2, hydro discs and tubeless tyres 6 years ago, and of all three technologies Di2 was the one that I felt was a bit meh. The shifting was not really better than my (super skilled) mechanical efforts.
However, a few years later I really understood the benefits and in particular on a winter bike where cable shifting degrades pretty quickly of you ride in all weathers.
I'm not sure it's particularly worth it on a summer bike (much like tubeless)
I remember you describing it as "an expensive luxury" whereas you felt disc brakes and tubeless offered more solid benefits, so it's interesting how your opinion's changed with time. OTOH of all the technological advances in cycling over the past decades, from clipless pedals in the '80s to now, electronic shifting is the only one to which I've ever heard anyone voice an "ethical" objection (as opposed to engineering, aesthetics or we-always-used-to-do-it-this-way), on the grounds that an integral part of the bike is no longer powered by "human muscular action". As far as I know none of the rule-making bodies, from UCI to AUK, have ruled against it, though I seem to have heard of an American randonneuring body (not RUSA) which used to apply a time penalty to riders using battery lamps rather than dynamo, on similar grounds, so presumably they would do something similar with electronic shifting. Outside of competition conditions, it's obviously personal choice, you can see how a certain type of purist objects to it on grounds of "self-reliance".
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Yes, and each to their own. I know some people get a kick out of using obsolete technology, whether it be 1950s bike or classic cars and that is fine by me. There is a valid pleasure in hardship and/or simplicity, but shunning new technology because it is new technology isn't a very rational approach. As I discovered with Di2, sometimes the tangible benefits appear later.
In all honesty I've never paid any attention to how Di2 is marketed, but I can tell you that it doesn't shift any better than a decent well-maintained mechanical set-up. What it does do is not require much further maintenance in order to keep that quality of shifting. Especially if used in the rain and skog. Its also great on a cold day when your hands are tired.
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Yes, and each to their own. I know some people get a kick out of using obsolete technology, whether it be 1950s bike or classic cars and that is fine by me. There is a valid pleasure in hardship and/or simplicity, but shunning new technology because it is new technology isn't a very rational approach. As I discovered with Di2, sometimes the tangible benefits appear later.
In all honesty I've never paid any attention to how Di2 is marketed, but I can tell you that it doesn't shift any better than a decent well-maintained mechanical set-up. What it does do is not require much further maintenance in order to keep that quality of shifting. Especially if used in the rain and skog. Its also great on a cold day when your hands are tired.
This exactly.
There remains a great delight in a perfectly set up mechanical groupset, but DI2 seems to stay perfectly adjusted regardless. I’ve also mentioned elsewhere, the sequential shift modes allow you to block out big ring and ‘too big’ cogs at the back - so you can run a wider range than you really should given mech capacity and chain length. Obviously less important for those with 53:39 11-25 legs;)
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Yes, and each to their own. I know some people get a kick out of using obsolete technology, whether it be 1950s bike or classic cars and that is fine by me. There is a valid pleasure in hardship and/or simplicity, but shunning new technology because it is new technology isn't a very rational approach. As I discovered with Di2, sometimes the tangible benefits appear later.
In all honesty I've never paid any attention to how Di2 is marketed, but I can tell you that it doesn't shift any better than a decent well-maintained mechanical set-up. What it does do is not require much further maintenance in order to keep that quality of shifting. Especially if used in the rain and skog. Its also great on a cold day when your hands are tired.
This exactly.
There remains a great delight in a perfectly set up mechanical groupset, but DI2 seems to stay perfectly adjusted regardless. I’ve also mentioned elsewhere, the sequential shift modes allow you to block out big ring and ‘too big’ cogs at the back - so you can run a wider range than you really should given mech capacity and chain length. Obviously less important for those with 53:39 11-25 legs;)
Except that in the brave new world of bicycling the only boyos using twin rings and having to think about cross-chaining will all be the racers with 53-39 11-25 legs; the rest of us will be supposed to be on 1x transmissions (and we may be forced into it by the limited choice of bits!)
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The new Shimano 12 speed groupsets are exclusively 2x and doesn’t even offer any kind of 1x option anywhere in its road groupset lineup*.
But apart from that, yes, we’re all being forced to use 1x. Someone is breaking into your shed and taking your second chainring right now.
(* I’m not counting GRX or Metrea)
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But
However, it also seems clear that the entry point for drop-bar riding is now gravel bikes, not traditional road bikes, so maybe these decisions make more sense in that context. If road riding and racing are steadily becoming more of a niche, then perhaps it’s smart to treat them as narrowing specialties instead of the mainstream option?
so GRX is the new Sora/Tiagra (combined with a bit of Alivio/XT)! (and is available in both 1x and 2x)
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The GRX levels where 1x is available (600/800) are priced around Ultegra level.
Most of those entry level “gravel bikes” are slightly chunkier road bikes with road groupsets (i.e doubles) that will be taken off road for one Instagram friendly session per year. Road 1x is still a thing the market isn’t interested in.
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All those £6k 3T Strada 1x bikes ended up on Merlin for £2k
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Yes, and each to their own. I know some people get a kick out of using obsolete technology, whether it be 1950s bike or classic cars and that is fine by me. There is a valid pleasure in hardship and/or simplicity, but shunning new technology because it is new technology isn't a very rational approach. As I discovered with Di2, sometimes the tangible benefits appear later.
Objecting to new technology because it's new or "makes it too easy"* is a different (and far more common) point. But interesting that the benefits in this case appear later, whereas eg disc brakes are tangibly better (IMO) as soon as you use them.
*Ed: "makes it too easy" usually means "I don't want to get more people doing what I'm doing"
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As I said, I'm not sure how Di2 is marketed as superior...but I suspect it will all be about shifting performance rather than ease of maintenance because performance is sexy and maintenance isn't.
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I had a wireless cycle computer for a while. It was very convenient and worked - except when certain makes of car passed closely. Then, suddenly, spurious readings would appear (I had a top speed of 999kph!).
I wonder if wireless electronic shifting will be vulnerable to similar effects.
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All those £6k 3T Strada 1x bikes ended up on Merlin for £2k
I think the frame got down to 1199! The due wasn’t much more mind.
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As I said, I'm not sure how Di2 is marketed as superior...but I suspect it will all be about shifting performance rather than ease of maintenance because performance is sexy and maintenance isn't.
True, but after a few years ‘not maintenance’ is very appealing:)
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I had a wireless cycle computer for a while. It was very convenient and worked - except when certain makes of car passed closely. Then, suddenly, spurious readings would appear (I had a top speed of 999kph!).
I wonder if wireless electronic shifting will be vulnerable to similar effects.
I think that's due to magnet fields. No idea what on the car causing it but I had the same with LED lights causing errors on a wireless computer
A separate one used to register rides over night with massive high speeds
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That problem is much less common as all electronic products (and complete cars) have to be tested and approved. It's quite a complex process.
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That problem is much less common as all electronic products (and complete cars) have to be tested and approved. It's quite a complex process.
Yeah, you'd think so, wouldn't you. (major cynicism from seeing what gets squeezed past regs because it is classed as 'test equipment').
BMWs were the worst for interference. No idea what caused the prob - it could have been something from the alternator causing false readings at the sensor. That is just a simple circuit picking up the magnet going past.
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Wireless trip computers typically use an exceptionally feeble wireless system, with a range that is measured in single centimeters and which is easily disrupted by any electrical interference from LED lights or anything else. I think unwrapping an old-skool tinfoil-wrapped kit-kat within a meter would be enough to cause disruption.
I doubt the SRAM wireless shifting uses anything so feeble.
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It's not just Shimano. Ford have filed a patent for an electric automatic-shifting derailleur!
https://road.cc/content/tech-news/radical-derailleur-design-revealed-new-patent-ford-286935
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It's not just Shimano. Ford have filed a patent for an electric automatic-shifting derailleur!
https://road.cc/content/tech-news/radical-derailleur-design-revealed-new-patent-ford-286935
That must be speculative patenting, waiting for someone else to pick up on the real potential so that they can make their bucks licencing or selling the rights in the idea. Given that their dérailleurs don't feature parallel movement (which seems to be pretty much essential to good operation) they are not that serious in the practical aspects, just looking for a patentable application for the technology. It might well come to nothing in bicycles but turn up in dishwashers or electric toasters (and probably in some part of an electric vehicle, just not bicycle gearchanging).
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No, no, you're quite wrong! Ford's CEO has been struck by a bolt of lightning and is right now convincing the board that cars are the past, bikes are the future. They're all set to revolutionize the bike industry with their innovative production line assembly methods, becoming the world's largest bike maker and making Detroit the world capital of pedal power.
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I had a wireless cycle computer for a while. It was very convenient and worked - except when certain makes of car passed closely. Then, suddenly, spurious readings would appear (I had a top speed of 999kph!).
I wonder if wireless electronic shifting will be vulnerable to similar effects.
I have Etap 11 speed, and I've never had any problem with phantom shifts. I've never had any problem with it not shifting when instructed either, which you might expect if the hardware was subject to interference that was then filtered using cyclic redundancy checks. So In a word, no they aren't.
What Etap 11 *is* vulnerable to, is the sudden withdrawal and probable buyback of all spare parts as soon as Etap 12 hit the market. I now live in fear of my blip box ever dying. In terms of support for old kit, it's quite a lot worse than Shimano, or even Campag.
[typos, oops]
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I had a wireless cycle computer for a while. It was very convenient and worked - except when certain makes of car passed closely. Then, suddenly, spurious readings would appear (I had a top speed of 999kph!).
I wonder if wireless electronic shifting will be vulnerable to similar effects.
I have Etap 11 speed, and I've never had any problem with phantom shifts. I've next had any problem with it not shifting when instructed either, which you might expect if the hardware was subject to interference the was then filtered using cyclic redundancy checks. So I'm a word, no they aren't.
What Etap 11 *is* boomerangse to, is the sudden withdrawal and probable buyback of all spare parts as soon as Etap 12 hit the market. I now live in fear of my blip box ever dying. In terms of support for old kit, it's quite a lot worse than Shimano, or even Campag.
Yep. If my Red Etap dies, Di2 will replace it.