Author Topic: Rim brakes for touring  (Read 2467 times)

ravenbait

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Rim brakes for touring
« on: 26 July, 2021, 11:53:29 am »
I did a search but nothing really answered my question, so...

Am now starting the slow process of gradually collecting parts to resurrect my Orbit Harrier. This originally came with Frankenstein's drivetrain with Avid Arch Rivals and Campag Veloce ergo levers on Marathon ITM bars. The brakes are somewhat the worse for wear with rust, which is a shame, because I liked them even though they needed the travelator thingy.

With disc brakes being everywhere now, it seems the choice of rim brakes for anything other than cross bikes and and racing road bikes has taken a nose dive. What are the current best options for touring rim brakes? The Orbit was a light tour/audax bike, but I've used it for laden touring successfully and would still like that option (although I wouldn't use it for an expedition, it's fine for UK-based on-road cycle camping). The bike has canti hangers, if that's the best option.

Sam
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"Created something? Hah! But that would be irresponsible! And unethical! I would never, ever make... more than one."

Re: Rim brakes for touring
« Reply #1 on: 26 July, 2021, 11:57:22 am »
I have Avid Shorty Ultimates on my Pompino.
Spendy, but easily as good as the Ultegra side pulls in my Ti bike.

Re: Rim brakes for touring
« Reply #2 on: 26 July, 2021, 12:06:49 pm »
I would certainly go for canti's, they offer the best compatability with racing brake levers and leave a lot more room for on the road repairs.
Tektro still offers a fair amount of them and they provide decent stopping power.

LittleWheelsandBig

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Re: Rim brakes for touring
« Reply #3 on: 26 July, 2021, 12:52:00 pm »
Depending on how big a tyre/ mudguard you need to accommodate, a long reach dual pivot caliper might be something to consider.

Mini-Vs are usually too tight around mudguards.

If you were using recent STI, you could have got away with standard V-brakes but Campag doesn’t pull enough cable without an adaptor. Unlike you, I am not a fan of brake travel adaptors.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Rim brakes for touring
« Reply #4 on: 26 July, 2021, 01:01:37 pm »
Definitely cantis. They are a faff to set up, but once they are right a good set of cantis works as well as any other type of brake (and better than most). On the subject of good cantis, SJS still have some Suntour SE rear brakes, which I would rate as the the best cantis ever.

Re: Rim brakes for touring
« Reply #5 on: 26 July, 2021, 01:08:28 pm »
+1 for the SE Pedersens

Re: Rim brakes for touring
« Reply #6 on: 26 July, 2021, 01:12:04 pm »
I use Avid Shorty Ultimate cantis (same as Jurek above) with Centuar Ergos on my tourer. They perform well enough. I've even descended hors catégorie cols fully loaded in the wet and I'm still alive :)
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ravenbait

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Re: Rim brakes for touring
« Reply #7 on: 26 July, 2021, 01:26:38 pm »
Thanks all. So Avid Ultimate on the front and Suntour on the rear, then. I'm just going to double check I'm right about there being a hanger...

Sam
https://ravenbait.com
"Created something? Hah! But that would be irresponsible! And unethical! I would never, ever make... more than one."

Re: Rim brakes for touring
« Reply #8 on: 27 July, 2021, 10:14:59 am »
Cantis have got a lot better in the last few years.  Too late to head off the advance of disc brakes, but great for those of us who still need them.

On my main ultra-racing bike which has done maybe 25k km, I have had four sets. 

I first had Tektro mini-Vs.  They worked well but needed to be readjusted too frequently so were a pain.

After a couple of years, I swapped them for Tektro CR710 cantis.  These were absolutely excellent brakes, better than the calipers on my audax bike.  The front squealed horribly, even though I tried to toe it in, but it was worth it for the performance (plus useful for warning people I was there / braking - but horrible for group riding, and made me use the back brake much more than I otherwise would have).

Last year I bought some carbon wheels for this bike and set up some old wheels with fat tyres to use off road.  I needed to use short road brake shoes for the carbon blocks and wantedbrakes that would open completely to allow me to easily change wheels, esp with the fat tyres.  The Tektros didn't have enough clearance from the fork to open fully, so I changed again, this time to Avid Shorty 4.  These have the fork clearance I wanted.  They are not quite as good as the Tektros for braking but not far off.  One thing I did change was they have a noodle arrangement rather than a straddle wire, but you can chuck that away and fit a generic straddle wire, which is easier to use and allows me to get them to open as I want them to (there is a safety reason for the noodle thing, but I am aware of and accept the risks). 

I also got some Avid Shorty Ultimates (which have a proper straddle cable) but I took them out of the box and they looked a bit wierd to fit - they don't have the normal spike to go into the canti boss, but seem to rely on friction.  There were no instructions in the box, and googling was only partially helpful so I decided I CBA to do the research and stuck with the modified Shorty 4s.

Re: Rim brakes for touring
« Reply #9 on: 27 July, 2021, 10:56:12 am »
I've no doubt the Avid Shorty Ultimate are good brakes, but their USP is the ability to quickly switch between low and wide profile, swapping performance for clearance.  I imagine that's a huge advantage for cyclocross, but isn't something I'd benefit from on a tourer. 
Whatever you go for, IME swapping the front hanger for an uphanger, which reduces the flex in the system and the chance of squealing, offers a considerable improvement.
I like cantis, I've had several from the cheap to the bling, the differences have been minimal, though the best profile may depend on the lever's cable pull.  Their bad rep comes from the awkwardness to get them set up well, once that's done I think they stop as well as any other rim brake and are as easy to live with.

Re: Rim brakes for touring
« Reply #10 on: 27 July, 2021, 11:04:05 am »
I also got some Avid Shorty Ultimates (which have a proper straddle cable) but I took them out of the box and they looked a bit wierd to fit - they don't have the normal spike to go into the canti boss, but seem to rely on friction.  There were no instructions in the box, and googling was only partially helpful so I decided I CBA to do the research and stuck with the modified Shorty 4s.

They do indeed look weird on first inspection! Did your Googling not turn up these instructions?

Anyway, I had Shorty 4s before replacing them with the Ultimates. The Ultimates are more powerful (although not loads more) and are so much easier to set up and balance. They also don't seem to suffer from the deafening squeeling of the 4s...
Those wonderful norks are never far from my thoughts, oh yeah!

ravenbait

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Re: Rim brakes for touring
« Reply #11 on: 27 July, 2021, 11:11:27 am »
I have no idea what an uphanger is and googling has not been helpful. Is it one of these things?

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/brakes/tektro-power-hanger-brake-enhancer-for-cantilever-brakes/

I've ordered one of the last two sets of Suntour rear cantis from SJS (at 9 ailing molluscs plus postage it seemed silly not to). I presume regular cantis will remain available for the forseeable.

Sam
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"Created something? Hah! But that would be irresponsible! And unethical! I would never, ever make... more than one."

Re: Rim brakes for touring
« Reply #12 on: 27 July, 2021, 11:25:01 am »
I have no idea what an uphanger is and googling has not been helpful. Is it one of these things?

Sam
Apologies.
It's one of these
https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m7b0s101p1809/TEKTRO-Front-Uphanger-For-Cantilever-Brakes

This has a photo of one fitted
https://www.rivbike.com/products/tektro-brake-cable-hanger-frame-mount

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Rim brakes for touring
« Reply #13 on: 27 July, 2021, 11:36:25 am »
The infinitely adjustable spring tension on these Avid brakes is a much better system than the spring in a hole method. I first used that spring tension system on Dia Compe 986 cantilevers, back in the day.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Rim brakes for touring
« Reply #14 on: 27 July, 2021, 11:37:54 am »

They do indeed look weird on first inspection! Did your Googling not turn up these instructions?

Anyway, I had Shorty 4s before replacing them with the Ultimates. The Ultimates are more powerful (although not loads more) and are so much easier to set up and balance. They also don't seem to suffer from the deafening squeeling of the 4s...

Yes, I found those instructions, but I wasn't enthused to read and digest them. 

I also suspected that the Ultimates would not give me the clearance that I needed to open them to get my gravel wheels in and out, and figured that the 4s, which I already had fitted were good enough brakes, and would give me what I wanted when I did the straddle cable modification.

My 4s are silent!

ravenbait

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Re: Rim brakes for touring
« Reply #15 on: 27 July, 2021, 01:59:51 pm »
Apologies.
It's one of these
https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m7b0s101p1809/TEKTRO-Front-Uphanger-For-Cantilever-Brakes

This has a photo of one fitted
https://www.rivbike.com/products/tektro-brake-cable-hanger-frame-mount

Please don't apologise. That's exactly the kind of thing I'd probably have gone looking for without even knowing what to call it, so you've been a great help.

Sam
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"Created something? Hah! But that would be irresponsible! And unethical! I would never, ever make... more than one."

Gattopardo

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Re: Rim brakes for touring
« Reply #16 on: 01 August, 2021, 09:17:44 pm »
I have no idea what an uphanger is and googling has not been helpful. Is it one of these things?

Sam
Apologies.
It's one of these
https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m7b0s101p1809/TEKTRO-Front-Uphanger-For-Cantilever-Brakes

This has a photo of one fitted
https://www.rivbike.com/products/tektro-brake-cable-hanger-frame-mount

Do they make that much of a difference?

rogerzilla

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Re: Rim brakes for touring
« Reply #17 on: 04 August, 2021, 07:33:43 am »
The main thing is to use Kool-Stop salmon pads.  The higher friction turns a hopeless cantilever into a mediocre one.

Most cantilever issues seem to be due to lever incompatibility.  The old DX/XT cantis on my Cinder Cone MTB, with equally ancient 4-finger levers, have more power than anyone could want.  Drop bar levers never quite seem to cut it.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Rim brakes for touring
« Reply #18 on: 04 August, 2021, 07:42:05 am »
Have Suntour SE on the rear of the tandem and can thoroughly recommend them!

WOT

Re: Rim brakes for touring
« Reply #19 on: 05 August, 2021, 11:20:12 pm »
Cx-50 or cx-70 cantis from Shimano are super easy to setup. Measure the rim width, measure the spacing between the brake mounts. Interpret the table provided in the instructions and assemble. Plenty of stopping power.

No faff when changing pads either.