Author Topic: Active 10  (Read 11531 times)

Wascally Weasel

  • Slayer of Dragons and killer of threads.
Re: Active 10
« Reply #25 on: 16 February, 2009, 11:04:01 am »
I finally got to use mine 'properly' yesterday.

I and Ms Weasel took the Thames Path to Walton on Thames on Sunday.  We ended up coming back quite late and didn't fancy the muddy path in the dark - I found a nice on-road return route after a quick look at the map and easily followed it back home.

If forced to I could have done the same without it but it was incredibly easy with the Active 10

Re: Active 10
« Reply #26 on: 16 February, 2009, 07:21:50 pm »
Wasn't out riding because of a sinus infection, but went for a little walk with the Active 10, just to see the red dots.
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

vistaed

  • Real name: James
    • Everyday stories
Re: Active 10
« Reply #27 on: 23 March, 2009, 05:39:42 pm »

I think if you want a GPS that tells you where to go, ie one that will indicate the turns along a route, then the Active 10 probably isn't as good as others, since it won't do that.  You can load a route up into it, and it will display it for you to follow, but it won't tell you where and when to turn, it's up to you to make the turns at the right time.


I suppose that using the A10 would be like using a real map with a red line drawn on to navigate with then? And I assume that using a Garmin off-road would not be able to tell you when to turn? So the OS map format of the A10 would be very useful?

james
after hardship comes ease -
 www.strava.com/athletes/188220

Rob S

Re: Active 10
« Reply #28 on: 23 March, 2009, 05:57:46 pm »

I think if you want a GPS that tells you where to go, ie one that will indicate the turns along a route, then the Active 10 probably isn't as good as others, since it won't do that.  You can load a route up into it, and it will display it for you to follow, but it won't tell you where and when to turn, it's up to you to make the turns at the right time.


I suppose that using the A10 would be like using a real map with a red line drawn on to navigate with then? james

Yep...nowt wrong with that :thumbsup:

Re: Active 10
« Reply #29 on: 23 March, 2009, 05:58:58 pm »
I think you can upload any route onto the Garmins and similar GPSs, and they will tell you when to turn.  The route doesn't have to be on a road.  Actually, it looks like the last software update to the Active 10 allows this, you can switch to a mode where it shows a meter like display, which points straight ahead, left, or right, depending on where the next waypoint is, although I haven't really investigated this very much.  I think the Garmins etc do a better job for this sort of route following, since they have things like audible indicators for when you need to look at the GPS.

For me, the Active 10 wins out, since it can have the entire 1:50000 mapping of the UK on it.  I don't think you can upload as much mapping onto the more conventional GPSs (although the only modern GPS I've used is the Active 10, so I may be wrong on this).  This does depend on you being able to afford this mapping however! (a smidgen under £200 for the whole UK at 1:50000).

I like having the detailed mapping on the GPS, since it will often allow you to see that your just going past a pre-historic site, or the name of a river, or whatever.  So long as it's on the OS mapping, you can see it on the display.  I find it very handy.  An example is the Brixton Windmill, which I sort of knew existed, but didn't know exactly where.  Looking at the GPS, there is a Windmill symbol right next to Brixton Hill, so dead easy to find.
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Active 10
« Reply #30 on: 23 March, 2009, 06:05:11 pm »
And I assume that using a Garmin off-road would not be able to tell you when to turn? So the OS map format of the A10 would be very useful?

Garmin's use of the term 'off-road' seems to lead to a lot of misunderstanding.

If you program a Garmin then use it in off-road mode, yes it will tell you when to turn.
In other words, you tell it exactly what you want to do, then it relays the instructions back to you at the appropriate time and place.  To do it well requires a lot of input from you the user.
Whereas in follow-road you tell it vaguely what you want to do, and it tries to second-guess what you really meant and instructs you accordingly.  This requires rather less prep, and a bit more blind faith.

Apologies for thread diversion, no intention of dissing the Active 10, honest.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Re: Active 10
« Reply #31 on: 23 March, 2009, 06:17:52 pm »
It's rather a case of horses for courses, things like the Garmin are good if you want it to give you a route to follow from point A to point B.  Without substantial planning prior to departure the Active 10 isn't as good at this.  You can generate a route using the device itself, rather than uploading a GPX, but it's a bit fiddly and tedious to my mind.

On the other hand, I don't think a Garmin can give you the rich and detailed OS 1:50000 mapping over such a large area.

It's all a matter of exactly what you want to do with the device.
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

Re: Active 10
« Reply #32 on: 23 March, 2009, 10:01:48 pm »
If you program a Garmin then use it in off-road mode, yes it will tell you when to turn. In other words, you tell it exactly what you want to do, then it relays the instructions back to you at the appropriate time and place. To do it well requires a lot of input from you the user. Whereas in follow-road you tell it vaguely what you want to do, and it tries to second-guess what you really meant and instructs you accordingly. 
In my opinion (and I appreciate this is all very subjective) you've just illustrated why the Satmap beats the Garmin. I can input a Route into my Garmin, devised on my desktop using Garmin's Mapsource, and it will, as you say, "second guess" the Route it displays back to me. Since the algorithms in the unit differ from those in Mapsource, you may or may not get the same route. Typically, however you set the preferences in the Garmin, you will find it sends you miles out of your way to cross a major road, or to take a "shortest" route. Since the mapping in it is so poor, you will have difficulty keeping track of where you are if you're in unfamiliar territory.

The Satmap, in contrast, doesn't try to do something it cannot do properly. It simply gives you the full maps, in a series of scales and with all the information the OS sheets have, and you just follow the roads/paths etc. as you would with a paper map. If you want a guide to follow, you use a preloaded track, which is what you have to do with a Garmin if you want dependability. If you haven't preloaded a route, it's very simple to devise an adequate guide in the unit itself, out in the field.

Now that the battery life and system stability issues are much improved, the only area in which the Garmin beats the Satmap is the screen visibility in strong light, and that's only the older Garmins - the Colorado and the Oregon are practically unusable on a bike. And that's only in daylight; at night the Satmap wins hands down.

All in my humble opinion,of course, and because that's what works for me - no doubt others will have different experiences!

Re: Active 10
« Reply #33 on: 23 March, 2009, 10:20:48 pm »
That's a good point though, the display on the Active 10 can be a bit iffy in bright sunlight.  It's OK on dull days, and when I use it on FNRttCs, you barely need the backlight turned on, so it improves the battery life. :thumbsup:

Hopefully Satmap will improve that on a later model, but knowing my luck, they'll change the format of the maps, and try to make us all buy them again!
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

Rob S

Re: Active 10
« Reply #34 on: 23 March, 2009, 10:34:46 pm »
Hopefully Satmap will improve that on a later model, but knowing my luck, they'll change the format of the maps, and try to make us all buy them again!

A later model... :o

Pocket GPS World - SatNavs | GPS | Speed Cameras

£80 extra...but includes a world base map (at the expense of the UK vector mapping) and postcode database...plus a Li Po battery and charger.....same old unit though :thumbsup:

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Active 10
« Reply #35 on: 23 March, 2009, 10:39:13 pm »

It seems they're all rubbish in bright sunlight.  Shame really.

If you program a Garmin then use it in off-road mode, yes it will tell you when to turn. In other words, you tell it exactly what you want to do, then it relays the instructions back to you at the appropriate time and place. To do it well requires a lot of input from you the user. Whereas in follow-road you tell it vaguely what you want to do, and it tries to second-guess what you really meant and instructs you accordingly.
In my opinion (and I appreciate this is all very subjective) you've just illustrated why the Satmap beats the Garmin. I can input a Route into my Garmin, devised on my desktop using Garmin's Mapsource, and it will, as you say, "second guess" the Route ... Typically ... you will find it sends you miles out of your way to cross a major road, or to take a "shortest" route. Since the mapping in it is so poor, you will have difficulty keeping track of where you are if you're in unfamiliar territory.

Yes that's all true, but its not as though that way of working is your only option.  You can use a Garmin as a 'highlighted scrolling map' if that's what you prefer.

Where I take issue with most of this thread is in describing Mapsource maps as 'poor' (they are so not) and OS maps as 'detailed' by contrast.  I would agree with OS being 'rich' however and that is a big plus obviously.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Re: Active 10
« Reply #36 on: 23 March, 2009, 10:55:20 pm »
I must admit, I don't know what the Mapsource mapping is like.  The OS mapping on the Active 10 is essentially the normal 1:25000 and/or 1:50000 mapping that most of us have used at one time or another, so is very familiar, and generally recognised as being extremely good.  I have no idea what level of detail and information things like Mapsource can provide, and how much can be loaded onto a Garmin GPS.

The Active 10 Plus model doesn't sound much like I'd be interested.  The Postcode database is of limited use on a GPS that doesn't do automagic routing, and it doesn't sound like losing the base vector mapping to gain a very limited worldwide map is much of a deal.
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

Re: Active 10
« Reply #37 on: 25 March, 2009, 09:29:52 pm »
The Active 10 Plus model doesn't sound much like I'd be interested.  The Postcode database is of limited use on a GPS that doesn't do automagic routing, and it doesn't sound like losing the base vector mapping to gain a very limited worldwide map is much of a deal.

I might go for the upgrade to the world base map at some point as I've not found that I've used the vector maps yet, but 1:5million isn't that helpful except to fill in the space between proper maps as far as I can see. I've got no foreign trips planned, so I'm in no rush.

I did try their web route planning thing the other day, but gave up really rather quickly as I couldn't get it to put dots where I clicked, follow roads or undo  ???

Re: Active 10
« Reply #38 on: 25 March, 2009, 09:58:46 pm »
Where I take issue with most of this thread is in describing Mapsource maps as 'poor' (they are so not) and OS maps as 'detailed' by contrast.  I would agree with OS being 'rich' however and that is a big plus obviously.
I suppose I should qualify what I mean when I say Mapsource/City Navigator maps are "poor". To me, this is caused by (i) roads being marked on the screen which aren't there (they're actually bridleways); (ii) bridleways shown (and used by the autorouting function as) roads when they're not rideable; (iii) the fact that all roads appear as same weighted same colour lines and you have no way of discerning which are A roads and which are "yellows"; (iv) when you zoom out to get an overview to try and figure which way to go the minor roads disappear (they do eventually on the Satmap too, but not until they're too small to read anyway and by that time you've switched to a larger scale map and can see the major landmarks easily); the fact that now I've been lumbered with Vista and updated my City Navigator, the smaller roads don't even show on the desktop when zoomed out beyond 300m so the programme is miserable to use now ............ oooh, you've got me going now!

On the other hand, for Audaxing, I sometimes think the OS maps are too detailed. Trying to read them at speed, maintaining your pace through villages say, or complex junctions, sometimes I miss the simple clarity of the Garmin - just a green track to follow on brown lines; no distracting "ancient monuments", "sites of special historic interest", etc. cluttering up the screen! In fact, it's occurred to me more than once, that my ideal might in fact be not a rolling OS map but a rolling Philip's Navigator which, when I was still using maps on the bike, I regarded as the best in the business. I found them very accurate, easy to read and displaying only, but all, the information I needed with no extraneous stuff to confuse the eye.

Re: Active 10
« Reply #39 on: 25 March, 2009, 10:38:10 pm »
The Active 10 Plus model doesn't sound much like I'd be interested.  The Postcode database is of limited use on a GPS that doesn't do automagic routing, and it doesn't sound like losing the base vector mapping to gain a very limited worldwide map is much of a deal.

I might go for the upgrade to the world base map at some point as I've not found that I've used the vector maps yet, but 1:5million isn't that helpful except to fill in the space between proper maps as far as I can see. I've got no foreign trips planned, so I'm in no rush.

I did try their web route planning thing the other day, but gave up really rather quickly as I couldn't get it to put dots where I clicked, follow roads or undo  ???
Ditto. It's not very good. Apart from having 1:25000 mapping of the UK, I think it's inferior to some of the free online ones. The viewing window is far too small, for a start. I told them, & they say it's intended to make it bigger eventually, but it's not a high priority. Making it work with other than OS maps, & some other improvements, are higher on the list.

I'm not interested in the world map or postcode database, either.

I've adopted a few methods of plotting routes for my Active 10. Probably all pretty standard, but bear with me: I'm new to this.
1. Plot them on my computer using one of the free online route planners, then load them onto the Active 10.
2. Let the Active 10 remember where I go, & save the route. I use this method when I'm following someone else, if I like their route. Any tweaks I do on the computer.
3. Nick one from Bikely. I intend to put some of my favourites on there, to pay for those I copy.

I see that on the website, to see the Dutch & Norwegian maps, you have to click on the relevant language icons. Hmm. What if you don't speak Dutch, but want to buy the maps for use on holiday? The selection of walking & cycling routes on their Dutch website is impressive, & I think excellent for anyone planning, e.g., a cycling holiday in the Netherlands, but do I really have to buy the map cards (1:25000 for the whole country, on two cards, BTW) from the ANWB Webwinkel (in Dutch only)?

I really like the thing itself, & I'm very pleased with Mrs Bs choice of birthday present for me, but I'm not impressed by the website, route planner, & how they sell stuff. Good that they sell the bike brackets separately, though. I need another one.
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Active 10
« Reply #40 on: 26 March, 2009, 01:15:22 pm »
I used to use a Mio Windows Mobile PDA with GPS onboard and MemoryMaps installed. Those who were led round various incorrect lanes in Suffolk on the 2005 Dun Run may remember the battery running out just when we needed it most! Battery life (and screen brightness) notwithstanding, I find it difficult to see what this Active 10 device offers that my old Mio didn't years ago.

With a large enough SD card, it could cover the whole of UK with 1:25,000 OS mapping, and have Tom Tom installed for getting to and from the riding area (for those occasions when the car was needed to get there).

Incidentally, it's still going and is now used by my stepson.

Rob S

Re: Active 10
« Reply #41 on: 26 March, 2009, 03:59:18 pm »
I used to use a Mio Windows Mobile PDA with GPS onboard and MemoryMaps installed. Those who were led round various incorrect lanes in Suffolk on the 2005 Dun Run may remember the battery running out just when we needed it most! Battery life (and screen brightness) notwithstanding, I find it difficult to see what this Active 10 device offers that my old Mio didn't years ago.

With a large enough SD card, it could cover the whole of UK with 1:25,000 OS mapping, and have Tom Tom installed for getting to and from the riding area (for those occasions when the car was needed to get there).

Incidentally, it's still going and is now used by my stepson.

What kind of battery life were you getting out of the Mio? And what can you do once the battery goes? replace it or plug in an external battery?

And I wonder what kind of performance you would get out of it if you hoped to have the whole of the UK at 1:25,000....that would be a pretty large file!!

Re: Active 10
« Reply #42 on: 26 March, 2009, 04:08:04 pm »
I used to use a Mio Windows Mobile PDA with GPS onboard and MemoryMaps installed. Those who were led round various incorrect lanes in Suffolk on the 2005 Dun Run may remember the battery running out just when we needed it most! Battery life (and screen brightness) notwithstanding, I find it difficult to see what this Active 10 device offers that my old Mio didn't years ago.
With a large enough SD card, it could cover the whole of UK with 1:25,000 OS mapping, and have Tom Tom installed for getting to and from the riding area (for those occasions when the car was needed to get there).
Incidentally, it's still going and is now used by my stepson.
What kind of battery life were you getting out of the Mio? And what can you do once the battery goes? replace it or plug in an external battery?
And I wonder what kind of performance you would get out of it if you hoped to have the whole of the UK at 1:25,000....that would be a pretty large file!!
And how did you get on with the Mio in pouring rain for six hours overnight?

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Active 10
« Reply #43 on: 26 March, 2009, 04:54:55 pm »

What kind of battery life were you getting out of the Mio? And what can you do once the battery goes? replace it or plug in an external battery?

And I wonder what kind of performance you would get out of it if you hoped to have the whole of the UK at 1:25,000....that would be a pretty large file!!

I was getting about 8 hours from a full charge. It could take an external power input, so I guess a battery pack would have been possible. I didn't attempt to put the whole of UK at 25k on a card - back then, it's unlikely I could have got a 32Gb SD card without a mortgage! But I did get half of UK at 50k on a 2Gb SD card, with Tom Tom on the same card. It handled those perfectly.
And how did you get on with the Mio in pouring rain for six hours overnight?

OK, actually. I had it inside the map cover on my bar bag. I believe there was a bike mount available for it, but I never had one.

I don't doubt that the Mio was inferior to the Active on a number of levels. It just doesn't seem that the game has moved on very much - and, in some ways, it's gone backwards.

Re: Active 10
« Reply #44 on: 26 March, 2009, 06:16:10 pm »
A lot of the limitations on things like the Active 10 aren't technological, they're issues with licensing the data at a sane price, and in a way that limits the promulgation of data to only those who have paid for it.

Satmap seem to have managed to provide the data on SD cards, in a way which limits the data files to the cards which they are distributed on only.  In effect there is a physical key associated with each card, stopping them being distributed outside of the paid for licensed quantities.  They are also selling them, albeit not cheaply, but at a price level which is broadly acceptable.

I don't know what previous attempts have been like, but they don't seem to have been successful, which presumably reflects either that they were too expensive, or the availability of large data transfer mechanisms didn't yet exist (ie cheap large SD cards in the case of the Active 10).
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

Re: Active 10
« Reply #45 on: 12 April, 2009, 10:47:28 pm »
I've just realised that the bike mounting for the Active 10 is a jazzed-up version of the
Rixen & Kaul Klickfix mini-adapter

BTW, I verified this today by putting my Active 10 on someone elses Klickfix adapter. Perfect fit. To my annoyance, Rixen & Kaul list it as "not available separately", but I have found it on sale separately, down to half the price of an Active 10 bike mount. If only I'd known before I bought a spare . . . . :(
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

Re: Active 10
« Reply #46 on: 13 April, 2009, 08:43:52 am »
It's also used by one of the lock manufacturers, I got a spare one with a lock, which I don't use with the lock.  I can't remember which type of lock it is though, and I'm away from home at the moment, so can't check.

Where did you find the mount cheaper?
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

Re: Active 10
« Reply #47 on: 13 April, 2009, 09:01:58 am »
It's also used by one of the lock manufacturers, .... I can't remember which type of lock it is though, ..........
I think it's Abus

Re: Active 10
« Reply #48 on: 13 April, 2009, 12:59:47 pm »
The Active 10 bike mount is an Abus product. It says "Abus" on it.  It also says "KLICKFix".

Looking at the Abus site, it seems to be the TexKF Mini. The RBKF Mini is the simpler version, very much like the Rixen & Kaul Mini Adapter.

Aha! It's not just "very much like" it, it's the same product, except for the colour. Made by Rixen & Kaul for Abus. Available for £2.99 (special offer) from ABUS RBKF MINI  :: £2.99 :: SECURITY :: Locks - Carrying Brackets :: Cyclesense Tadcaster

Worth buying a few as spares, at that price. One can also get the TexKF Mini a bit cheaper elsewhere than from Satmap. They charge the same as the most expensive alternatives, & some do free or cheaper delivery.

"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

Re: Active 10
« Reply #49 on: 13 April, 2009, 01:21:36 pm »
Where did you find the mount cheaper?
The Klickfix Mini Adapter (part number AM803) £7.61 at Dotbike, but see above for even cheaper under the Abus name. Note that is a simpler & cheaper product than the one Satmap sells, but I have tried the Active 10 on one, & it's definitely the same fitting.

Cyclestore.co.uk are selling the TexKF Mini (same as Satmap) for £12.32 + £3 P&P, vs £14.99 + £2.99 P&P from Satmap. Wiggle have 3 at £14.67 post free.

All found using a well-known search engine.
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897