Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => Topic started by: Polar Bear on 13 November, 2017, 09:29:24 pm
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Anybody do it?
GCN (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvJ7aAUWBz8&feature=youtu.be)
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Is this a euphemism?
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Tried, it flakes off. I don't think they mean candle wax :-[
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Is this a euphemism?
That was my first reaction.
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i don't think they are doing it the right way. i've heard mixing in some paraffin oil makes the chain less stiff and run quieter.
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Linklife used to be the stuff to use.
Don't think it's available any more but Putoline (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PUTOLINE-CHAIN-WAX-BOIL-IN-THE-TIN-TYPE-LINKLIFE-FOR-MOTORCYCLE-MOTORBIKE-CHAINS-/361926663197) still market something similar.
Best done from new, the chain needs to be as clean as a whistle and possibly too much faff for most peeps...
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Chain lube for bicycle chains. It's easier to clean.
Thick, gloopy, stuff for Motorbike chains where it needs to stay put and the loss of a few Watts don't matter.
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I still have a tin of linklyfe. Good for fixed in winter but tends to clog derraliers. I may get it out again now roads are being salted
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Used White Lightning once. I found it useless.
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That video must have come out on April 1st.
Chains are supposed to bend, right? And he recommends keeping your slow cooker permanently full of paraffin wax?!
No stew for him!
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A double boiler made of an old tin in an old saucepan would do just as well.
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I used to use Motorcycle chain wax in australia. It was useful in that the sand didn't stick to the wax in the same way it sticks to oil. Made things very gloopy round the jockey wheels.
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seems an awful lot of work compared to a squirt of normal chain lube. I'm not convinced by all the power loss claims for bits of drivetrain. If 3 watts was being lost to friction at as many places as we are led to believe I would expect the whole thing to be getter rather hot
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an average bike loses ~50W in the tyres, yet they don't get appreciably warm. 3W is peanuts.
cheers
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I tried waxing my chain years ago, it just wasn't worth the effort. Get a chain cleaning tool like Park or Pedro's make, and pick the lube that works best for your riding conditions (or just use whatever's available at the shop).
A home made double boiler like T42 described makes more sense than a slow cooker that could be better used for food. The water in the saucepan will keep the wax from overheating, and will keep the wax warm for a while after you take it off the stove.
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Anybody do it?
GCN (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvJ7aAUWBz8&feature=youtu.be)
Nope.
Its very shit.
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Is this a euphemism?
That was my first reaction.
That's "waxing your dolphin". Or "polishing your lighthouse".
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I'm a happy Squirt user http://www.squirtlube.com/ (http://www.squirtlube.com/).
Probably needs re-applying more frequently than some (e.g. Finish Line Winter), but worth it for the reduction in cleaning time and ther general lack of gunk putting the bike into the back of the car.
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an average bike loses ~50W in the tyres, yet they don't get appreciably warm. 3W is peanuts.
cheers
A bit off topic but can it be true that you lose 50w thru the tyres? that would mean that any thing less than 50 watts at the pedal wouldn't more the bike at all. There are all sorts of lubes and gadgets that are meant to reduce power loss but power is never "lost" its just converted to another from of energy generally heat thru friction but it could be noise.
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an average bike loses ~50W in the tyres, yet they don't get appreciably warm. 3W is peanuts.
cheers
A bit off topic but can it be true that you lose 50w thru the tyres? that would mean that any thing less than 50 watts at the pedal wouldn't more the bike at all. There are all sorts of lubes and gadgets that are meant to reduce power loss but power is never "lost" its just converted to another from of energy generally heat thru friction but it could be noise.
Let me introduce you to:
https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/ (https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/)
50W is a tad high - that is for the heavier, cheaper tyres. Most 'touring' tyres have a rolling resistance (at the test speeds) of over 20W per tyre.
Rolling resistance increases linearly with speed - it isn't zero at zero speed but it is lowish for nearly all tyres then increases.
So, yes, it is perfectly possible to lose 50W just to tyre rolling resistance. Even the very best fast tyres will soak up 20-25W (for a pair) at good cruising speed.
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Used White Lightning once. I found it useless.
Totally agreed for the road bikes. Being too tight to actually throw away a 3/4 full bottle I've been using up on the MTB where only lasting one muddy ride is acceptable. However I certainly won't be buying anymore.
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Aren't you supposed to drink it with your mates, in a playground after dark?
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Not when it goes up over 11 quid a bottle in Scotland...
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Among some USAnians, waxing vs. oil-based lubrication of chains has elements of chain-care denominationalism.
Waxing seems to work better in dry climates or times of the year.
The true believers have a few sets of chains (not "chainsets", of course). Typically they exchange chains every 500 miles or so, and when they have 3 or 4 which have been used, they get out their thrift-sale "crock pot" slow cooker, add some more wax (which they call paraffin - not the same product as names that in the UK), and let it warm up. Chains are then immersed for half a day or more; the heat tends to loosen grit up, which falls to the bottom, and wax enters into the various interstitial spaces in the chain. Chains are then fished out and hung up to cool. When cool, loose wax is removed by rubbing down.
Those who find waxing to be heretical use a variety of commercial and home-brew products and combinations. Some thin chainsaw bar oil with solvents, and apply it a drop at a time to the chain links.
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re rolling resistance, the test that is done by the folks who run the website in the above link uses the following conditions;
77 cm drum diameter.
Drum speed of 200 RPM which translates to a speed of 18 mph / 29 km/h.
Diamond plate drum surface.
42.5 kg load.
Butyl tube.
Computerized measurements.
Controlled temperature between 21.5-22.5 °C / 70-73 °F.
detailed on this pagehttps://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/the-test (https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/the-test)
In the simplest terms the power consumed through rolling resistance varies in proportion to both speed and load. So if your all-up weight (you, the bike, any luggage) is 100kg then at the test speed of 18mph, tyres that score 20W on the test actually consume about 47W as you ride down the road at 18mph (assuming that the road is similarly rough to the test roller etc). That is a realistic figure for lots of training tyres, eg conti gatorskins, BTW.
BTW very many of the wax recipes that you will find on the interweb are not remotely suitable for a UK winter. Basically you need something that won't wash off, and it is good if it has corrosion inhibitors in it. Most oils provide a simple barrier function but they work a heck of a lot better if they have a chemical corrosion inhibiting additive in the mix. Rain alone is bad enough but road salt is deadly.
cheers
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Ok cyclists, I have found a small slow cooker, have a 7 speed chain and a 9 speed chain undergoing an initial long soak in white spirits. The white spirits have not really cleared between shakes....
So once I have measured the chains to see how worn they are to see if there is any life left on the chain and or sprockets. Then I shall clean them again and then soak them in a paraffin wax bath. The wax is a paraffin sealing wax used on preserve jars so will see what happens.
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The true believers have a few sets of chains (not "chainsets", of course). Typically they exchange chains every 500 miles or so, and when they have 3 or 4 which have been used, they get out their thrift-sale "crock pot" slow cooker, add some more wax (which they call paraffin - not the same product as names that in the UK), and let it warm up. Chains are then immersed for half a day or more; the heat tends to loosen grit up, which falls to the bottom, and wax enters into the various interstitial spaces in the chain. Chains are then fished out and hung up to cool. When cool, loose wax is removed by rubbing down.
Mostly captures my routine. Although "routine" is putting it a bit high.
I use a cheap Chinese ultrasonic cleaner for about 20 minutes, while the slow cooker is warming and melting the wax (a mix of about 70% candle wax to 30% liquid paraffin; solid at room temperature, but smears rather than flakes). Chain goes in that for about 20 minutes, then back on the bike. Rotating chains depending on which one is the most worn.
Sounds like a lot of effort, but really it is not. Maybe five minutes of human/bike interaction each week, and in return I have a clean chain.
Doesn’t last more than one ride in the pissing wet though.
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Doesn’t last more than one ride in the pissing wet though.
like most wax lubes then....
cheers
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If only someone could bring out an easy-to-use chain lube packaged in a bottle with an applicator nozzle.
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If only someone could bring out an easy-to-use chain lube packaged in a bottle with an applicator nozzle.
I guess that's the idea of Squirt lube, though I've not tried this myself yet:
http://www.squirtlube.com/our-products/
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My chains don't get hairy. Anyway, "according to G" you're supposed to shave not wax and I'm damned if I'm shaving my chains.
I'll get my coat... :)
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Anybody do it?
GCN (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvJ7aAUWBz8&feature=youtu.be)
Red Finish Line and the occasional spin through a park chain cleaner (half price, thank you road.cc) is enough for my chains.
If you charge your time out at £40 an hour, even expensive chains (http://www.wiggle.co.uk/wippermann-connex-11sx-chain/) start to look cheap!
However, I do understand that some people regard a dirty chain as roughly equivalent to entering the Royal Enclosure at Ascot hatless and wearing only Speedos. Feel free to wax away :)
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My chains don't get hairy.
Mine do :-[
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If only someone could bring out an easy-to-use chain lube packaged in a bottle with an applicator nozzle.
I bought a can of this out of curiosity and it is surprisingly good!
https://www.toolstation.com/shop/Automotive/d60/Lubricants+%26+Sprays/sd2795/Chain+Spray/p66808
(https://www.toolstation.com/shop/Automotive/d60/Lubricants+%26+Sprays/sd2795/Chain+Spray/p66808)
It's really easy to apply to the chain in situ without over spraying and it's good for use as a general purpose grease.
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The commercial "dry" lubes (which aren't dry, they're just less wet) work ok and attract less dirt, but are useless in the rain. Finish Line wet lube attracts dirt like flypaper but doesn't "string" like crappy chainsaw oil-based lubes and lasts for weeks in the winter.
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Is this a record for procrastination, as I started this thread I put a chain in white spirit and I think it is still there.
Still not melted the wax either.
Am procrastinating as I am afraid of getting it wrong.
So what chain cleaning degreasser should I use? White spirit, kerosene petrol or brake and clutch cleaner? Then shall I stick the chain in meths to clean the chain pre going in to the wax.
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Thread revival!
I used to use White Lightening and I never had the issues people upthread reported. I just lubed the chain when I remembered, didn't bother de-greasing it beforehand (new or old chains), and I was a huge fan as the chain stayed clean and remained lubed on all rides. I used to ride in all weathers and in sandy conditions. I haven't been able to buy it for ages, and other chain lubes don't seem to last as long and they do pick up the grit which shortens chain life.
Chain cleaner, when I bothered, I just used water in an ultrasonic cleaner. Amazing to watch the dirt coming out of the links. I also used whatever I found in the garage, whether white spirit, meths, engine degreaser (which then washed off with water), etc.
I think the key that is being suggested here is to get back to clean metal that the wax will stick to, whereas I preferred the logic of wax in a thinner that you drizzled on the existing chain, spun the chain to evaporate the thinner, and then rode 1000km before remembering that another drizzle of wax to the bike might be an idea.
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Two changes of white spirit. Put the chain in white spirit and gently shake. You need to shake for at least 10 minutes. Then rinse under a hot tap with detergent (washing up liquid) to remove the white spirit. You need a clean chain with no traces of previous lubricant. Dunk chain into molten wax and leave for at least 10 minutes - it doesn't matter if the chain is slightly damp, it will just sizzle a little as it goes into the wax. Its best to thread the chain onto a suitable bent coat hanger to make it easier to retrieve the chain and hang up to cool. I usually hang mine above the molten wax so that the excess wax drains back into the slow cooker. I've found that you don't need a huge amount of wax on the chain.
I've been using hot wax with tungsten disulphide since last august when I got new bike with gears in a can. I started with two new 8x chains (KMC e1 EPT coated) and rotate the chains after 2-300km (about 1 -2 weeks leisure riding for me). I measure chain wear using a park tool chain checker (cc-2 which measures % stretch). After 5000km (approx 2500km per chain) I still can't get the pins of the checker between the links of the chain. With previous bikes with 10 speed derailleurs I'd get through a sram 1051 chain in about 1000km despite fastidious cleaning and lubricating.
For a used wax chain I just wipe with paper towel, or rinse under the cold tap before wiping if I think its a bit grubby, before redunking in molten wax. The whole process is very simple as you are normally off doing other things while the chain cooks or cools.
The chains run very smoothly and very quietly.
I've yet to have a serious ride in prolonged wet but the chains have had rides where they have been submerged in muddy water (due to roads being flooded) and the wax persisted very well.
I've done at back to back 100km rides and at least one 200km audax on a hot waxed chain without chain lubrication issues.
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Still not got any further....but today I might melt some tealights in a rice cooker that has a very scrached non stick pan.
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Hmm , I used to use C3 green in the summer and pink in the winter - the green stuff is nice and keeps everything manageably clean but the pink stuff is very messy after a few rides
I got some Hagen “ultimate chain wax” pellets and a shake in the bag chain stripper. Strip a new or y’know super cleanable chain and you see all the gunk in the bottom of the bag - 2-3mins while melting the wax
Rinse, dry and stick it in the oven for 5 min - wax has melted by now
Put the chain in the wax and agitate till the rollers are full - 2 mins
Fish it out with a coat hanger and rub it down with kitchen paper - 2 mins
For me it’s near silent - lasts about 2-300 miles between reapplications and means a permanently super clean and shiny drivetrain
IMHO - totally worth it
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Hmm , I used to use C3 green in the summer and pink in the winter - the green stuff is nice and keeps everything manageably clean but the pink stuff is very messy after a few rides
I got some Hagen “ultimate chain wax” pellets and a shake in the bag chain stripper.
Strip a new or y’know super cleanable chain and you see all the gunk in the bottom of the bag - 2-3mins while melting the wax
Rinse, dry and stick it in the oven for 5 min - wax has melted by now
Put the chain in the wax and agitate till the rollers are full - 2 mins
Fish it out with a coat hanger and rub it down with kitchen paper - 2 mins
For me it’s near silent - lasts about 2-300 miles between reapplications and means a permanently super clean and shiny drivetrain
IMHO - totally worth it
- I give my chain a good clean in the usual way.
- Chain then goes into an old slow cooker that has melted candle wax in it.
- Leave it stewing for a few minutes.
- Take it out with a coat hanger.
- Let it dry.
- Put chain on bike.
- Super-clean and super-quiet. :thumbsup:
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This is the way
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Some useful information
https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu_Q0cqoKeY
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Lots of stuff about cleaning & waxing chains on here: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=oz+cycle
Including making your own squeeze-bottle wax lube. Haven't tried it, don't do multi-day rides any more.
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Oz cycles
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-05/steven-john-leffanue-jailed-over-killing-neighbours-dog/101209462
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Jumbo Visma team uses Dynamic wax
at about 3:33 in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPSvx15sitA
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Waxed chain process for re-waxing (with pix):
1 Chain off and soaked in boiling water (to melt away wax residue).
2 Chain into ultrasonic cleaner if very dirty/muddy.
3 Chain into slow-cooker with wax and a pinch of PTFE powder (the mix is reused several times) on high for about half-an-hour gving the chain an occasional shake with the hook on an old spoke to get the wax into the rollers.
4 Remove chain and hang up to dry. Chain will be a "solid rod", just needs gently bending to get the wax moving and flexing in the links.
Tip: I have a short piece of old spoke bent into tight loops at each end - I hook this "tool" into the middle link of the chain before putting it in the slow-cooker . . . makes it easier to lift the (hot!) chain out and hang it over the slow-cooker to dry.
(https://i.ibb.co/ZXf7KVc/chainwax1-2aug23.jpg)
Hanging up to dry
(https://i.ibb.co/DwxFYWH/hanging-chain.jpg)
The "tool"
(https://i.ibb.co/09c0kbt/chain-hook.jpg)
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I made a few of these:
(https://pbase.com/johnewing/image/172349291.jpg)
The chain, joined up with the quick-link, goes onto the horizontal bit, quick-link first to save hunting for it afterwards when it's covered in wax. The hook goes over the edge of the wax pot and stays cool enough to handle, so that I can stir the chain about from time to time and make sure the PTFE gets everywhere - it'll settle out if you leave it too long. For the latest version I used an old spoke and screwed a nipple onto to open end as a keeper.
Oz cycles
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-05/steven-john-leffanue-jailed-over-killing-neighbours-dog/101209462
Bloody hell.
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I made a few of these:
(https://pbase.com/johnewing/image/172349291.jpg)
The chain, joined up with the quick-link, goes onto the horizontal bit, quick-link first to save hunting for it afterwards when it's covered in wax. The hook goes over the edge of the wax pot and stays cool enough to handle, so that I can stir the chain about from time to time and make sure the PTFE gets everywhere - it'll settle out if you leave it too long. For the latest version I used an old spoke and screwed a nipple onto to open end as a keeper.
Oz cycles
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-05/steven-john-leffanue-jailed-over-killing-neighbours-dog/101209462
Bloody hell.
I see a refinement to my hook tool being made tomorrow :) - hooking it over the side of the slow cooker makes sense to get the chain out easily.
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I tried waxing a couple of years ago, but I gave it up because it just didn't seem to last long enough. It was rare to even get round a 200km without the chain starting to get noisy.
Reading up, it's possible that I needed to add some paraffin oil to the the paraffin wax I was using.
Q for the experts: can you get round a 600km audax with a waxed chain? In British conditions, of course :-)
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Is paraffin oil different to paraffin?
Also I've melted tea light, is that the wrong stuff?
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I tried waxing a couple of years ago, but I gave it up because it just didn't seem to last long enough. It was rare to even get round a 200km without the chain starting to get noisy.
Reading up, it's possible that I needed to add some paraffin oil to the the paraffin wax I was using.
Q for the experts: can you get round a 600km audax with a waxed chain? In British conditions, of course :-)
I've done over 500km in the south of France with a fresh immersion waxed chain, no top ups, still ran great.
But with UK rain 600km is going to be pushing it to have the chain still running smoothly, at least without a top up (over the top with a quality drip wax like UFO or Silca). And even then you'd really want to give the chain a proper wipe and dry first. Trouble is for a 600km, even if you time the top up at your longest rest stop / half way, the drip waxes almost all need to dry overnight before use - might not fit your plans.
There is one option which I'm experimenting with; Tru Tension Bananaslip Tungsten all weather. A drip wax that claims to be dry in 5 minutes... I'm trying it now, certainly seems to work fine.
You can of course simply start with a waxed chain and apply an oil lube over the top should you need it - it works fine, your waxed chain will remain clean of dirt until you apply the oil, and might last OK on it's own anyway if you're lucky with the weather. The oil works fine when applied as usual, the only issue is that when you want to reset to wax lube once you're home you'll need to fully clean and degrease your chain and drivetrain, instead of just a rinse in boiling water and whacking it in the wax again.
Re your paraffin wax question, the type of wax makes a big difference. Gulf wax is probably the safest bet, candles are not a good idea at all, can be make of soy wax of tons of other things.
The specialist waxes are a good bit better and have some useful additives to make them last. Depends on whether you want the best lubed chain, or just want to save money on degreaser and lube.
I'm using NRG wax from the UK, more expensive than plain paraffin wax but vastly cheaper than Silca etc.
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How do you know which candles are which?
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But with UK rain 600km is going to be pushing it to have the chain still running smoothly, at least without a top up (over the top with a quality drip wax like UFO or Silca). And even then you'd really want to give the chain a proper wipe and dry first. Trouble is for a 600km, even if you time the top up at your longest rest stop / half way, the drip waxes almost all need to dry overnight before use - might not fit your plans.
There is one option which I'm experimenting with; Tru Tension Bananaslip Tungsten all weather. A drip wax that claims to be dry in 5 minutes... I'm trying it now, certainly seems to work fine.
I've literally done this, give the chain a quick wipe, apply drip wax, sleep. Wake up, go again.
The TT stuff definitely doesn't set in 5 minutes, but it is slack enough that it'll be better than nothing even after that. I think it was TT that did poorly in the wet conditions test from ZFC, he contacted them and they revised the setting time to 24 hours and it did much better.....still says 15 minutes on the bottle though ;)
The fastest drying I've seen is UFO Drip All Conditions. I carry the UFO Wet for the 'better than nothing if caught in terrible weather' option though on long audaxes.
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my preferred method is to carry a spare waxed chain. quick and clean to swap it out, and doesn't weigh that much (especially as there's no need to carry a chain breaker tool).
most of my cycling is in dry conditions and wax lasts 500...800km
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Re the references to ultrasonic cleaning baths upthread - any recommendations please for where to buy and what type/size bath is most useful for chains and general bike bits? don't want to spend too much (I am after all cyclist:) ), but will if needed for reliability.
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Re the references to ultrasonic cleaning baths upthread - any recommendations please for where to buy and what type/size bath is most useful for chains and general bike bits? don't want to spend too much (I am after all cyclist:) ), but will if needed for reliability.
This in the 3Litre version works for me: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Commercial-Ultrasonic-Cleaner-DK-SONIC-Eyeglasses/dp/B07BL1T725/ref=sr_1_24?crid=33DH1BL25X0ID&keywords=ultrasonic+cleaner&qid=1707826298&sprefix=ultra%2Caps%2C175&sr=8-24
I run it with water and about a cupful of Screwfix NoNonsense Degreaser.
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I've literally done this, give the chain a quick wipe, apply drip wax, sleep. Wake up, go again.
The TT stuff definitely doesn't set in 5 minutes, but it is slack enough that it'll be better than nothing even after that. I think it was TT that did poorly in the wet conditions test from ZFC, he contacted them and they revised the setting time to 24 hours and it did much better.....still says 15 minutes on the bottle though ;)
Ah thanks, can't say I've tested the quick drying feature yet but it did sound odd that this one drip wax was hundreds of times quicker than the rest. The product does seem sound though at least.
It is tempting to just abandon waxing and beg/borrow some oil to top up in truly epic ride lengths in wet conditions.
Re the references to ultrasonic cleaning baths upthread - any recommendations please for where to buy and what type/size bath is most useful for chains and general bike bits? don't want to spend too much (I am after all cyclist:) ), but will if needed for reliability.
I'd say absolutely not needed for waxing, and will be incredibly seldom used if you do make the switch, as there'll be no oil to be degreased on your drivetrain from then on.
Start with a new chain and that's easy to degrease with a couple of solvent baths.
Chainrings & Cassettes come up sparkling with just a bit of degreaser and scrubbing, certainly clean enough to not bother working out where to store another bit of bike maintenance equipment.
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Lots of information here: https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/
This is where I started: https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Key-Learnings-from-Lubricant-Testing-2.3a.pdf
I think I'm convinved about the merits of immersive waxing.
Where's the best place to buy Turpentine and Methylated Spirits online?
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Re the references to ultrasonic cleaning baths upthread - any recommendations please for where to buy and what type/size bath is most useful for chains and general bike bits? don't want to spend too much (I am after all cyclist:) ), but will if needed for reliability.
Not as good as a soak in degreasser and shaking
Check out Oz Cycling on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYxzHClWfQU
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I'd say absolutely not needed for waxing...
Start with a new chain and that's easy to degrease with a couple of solvent baths.
Agreed.
Where's the best place to buy Turpentine and Methylated Spirits online?
I use white spirit then meths with a new chain and I just get them from Amazon.
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I've literally done this, give the chain a quick wipe, apply drip wax, sleep. Wake up, go again.
The TT stuff definitely doesn't set in 5 minutes, but it is slack enough that it'll be better than nothing even after that. I think it was TT that did poorly in the wet conditions test from ZFC, he contacted them and they revised the setting time to 24 hours and it did much better.....still says 15 minutes on the bottle though ;)
Ah thanks, can't say I've tested the quick drying feature yet but it did sound odd that this one drip wax was hundreds of times quicker than the rest. The product does seem sound though at least.
It is tempting to just abandon waxing and beg/borrow some oil to top up in truly epic ride lengths in wet conditions.
Re the references to ultrasonic cleaning baths upthread - any recommendations please for where to buy and what type/size bath is most useful for chains and general bike bits? don't want to spend too much (I am after all cyclist:) ), but will if needed for reliability.
I'd say absolutely not needed for waxing, and will be incredibly seldom used if you do make the switch, as there'll be no oil to be degreased on your drivetrain from then on.
Start with a new chain and that's easy to degrease with a couple of solvent baths.
Chainrings & Cassettes come up sparkling with just a bit of degreaser and scrubbing, certainly clean enough to not bother working out where to store another bit of bike maintenance equipment.
I'd challenge that comment about seldom using - I use the machine to clean cassettes, chainrings, mechs, and various other bike parts - as well as tools (both bike related and others) and other bits and pieces. A big benefit is that while the machine is doing its job you can get on with something else.
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Check out Oz Cycling on youtube
I'd suggest not giving him clicks/money/attention...
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-05/steven-john-leffanue-jailed-over-killing-neighbours-dog/101209462
Where's the best place to buy Turpentine and Methylated Spirits online?
I wouldn't, get some UFO Clean or Silca Chain Stripper and do it more easily, quicker and with less harmful chemicals 8)
I'd say absolutely not needed for waxing, and will be incredibly seldom used if you do make the switch, as there'll be no oil to be degreased on your drivetrain from then on.
Start with a new chain and that's easy to degrease with a couple of solvent baths.
I'd challenge that comment about seldom using - I use the machine to clean cassettes, chainrings, mechs, and various other bike parts - as well as tools (both bike related and others) and other bits and pieces. A big benefit is that while the machine is doing its job you can get on with something else.
I think the poster above means once it's waxed. You don't need to clean mechs, chainrings etc once you're on an immersive wax setup. Any minor cleanup when using wax drip can be done with the leftover used cleaner from the above.
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Half a litre of Silca Chain Stripper is 44 euro. Whole litre of white spirits is what, 2 euro?
I do use their wax, for convenience and one pouch last for ages. So far I'm happy waxing the chain (well, it's three chains...) on my velomobile; since it runs inside rain does not affect it and it does keep my lower leg and hands (when mending the chain when it ran off the chainring) clean.
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I have used this with great success, followed by waxing the chain with cheap candle flakes in an old slow cooker.
(https://raymondwhittaker.vivamknetwork.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/a8d14efa29715e2f5d81e2b137c08efb/8/0/80004.jpg)
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I do use their wax, for convenience and one pouch last for ages.
Likewise. I tolerate the price given it lasts a long time. The pricing of some of their other bits and bobs is insane.
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Check out Oz Cycling on youtube
I'd suggest not giving him clicks/money/attention...
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-05/steven-john-leffanue-jailed-over-killing-neighbours-dog/101209462
Where's the best place to buy Turpentine and Methylated Spirits online?
I wouldn't, get some UFO Clean or Silca Chain Stripper and do it more easily, quicker and with less harmful chemicals 8)
I'd say absolutely not needed for waxing, and will be incredibly seldom used if you do make the switch, as there'll be no oil to be degreased on your drivetrain from then on.
Start with a new chain and that's easy to degrease with a couple of solvent baths.
I'd challenge that comment about seldom using - I use the machine to clean cassettes, chainrings, mechs, and various other bike parts - as well as tools (both bike related and others) and other bits and pieces. A big benefit is that while the machine is doing its job you can get on with something else.
I think the poster above means once it's waxed. You don't need to clean mechs, chainrings etc once you're on an immersive wax setup. Any minor cleanup when using wax drip can be done with the leftover used cleaner from the above.
Agreed on chain/drivetrain when waxed (unless very dirty) - I was really extolling the virtues of ultrasonic bath ownership beyond just chains . . .
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Half a litre of Silca Chain Stripper is 44 euro. Whole litre of white spirits is what, 2 euro?
I mentioned two products, the other one was UFO Clean which is £22.
The cost of the product is one factor but not the only one. First off, half a litre of either of the above will strip 25 factory chains of lube - so even from a price perspective, how much white spirit and meths (which btw is £5 per 500ml, so quadruples your price comparison) will that need?
The next factor is time, what do you want to do. Three baths of white spirit, followed by 2 of meths, then wax....or soak in UFO Clean, give it a couple of shakes occasionally, move chain into a foil tray and immerse/rinse with boiling water, then dry and you're done. In the latter case the chain will also have a coating that it's claimed (and I have anecdotaly found to be true) helps with the wax adhesion to the chain.
Then there's the question of what to do with it afterwards. Used White Spirit (unless you have a fancy recycling facility at home) will require taking to the tip for proper disposal. Used UFO/Silca should also be properly disposed of, but as the initial chemical is environmentally friendly you could arguably use the 'used' stuff which still has some cleaning power to do some cleaning of chainrings etc and rinse it off, which is still better than doing the above with a harsh degreaser.
You pay your money and take your choice, and I've done both. I get paid to prep chains and regularly go to the tip to dispose of chemicals, so if I thought White Spirit/Meths was better/cheaper/easier I'd still be using them but the time saving and the guaranteed result means I mostly use UFO Clean.
For the home waxer using drip wax, I find it very hard to recommend anything other than the Silca Bundle - for 8 quid more than the drip wax itself you get the wax plus the stripper (only enough to do 5-6 chains, but still....), and you never have to even worry about taking the chain off. More experienced people who do immersive would still benefit from having some drip wax lying around for those lazy times or after getting caught in rain when you need to do something but can't be bothered with a full strip and rewax.
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The problem with liquid suspensions of waxes is that they use additives (surfactants etc) to create the emulsion and stop the wax agglomerating into a single blob. When the wax dries out those additives remain, ready to solubulise the wax again at the first sign of water. Hence hot waxing is by far the better method as it is just water repellent wax and is very difficult for water to wash off on an ad hoc basis.
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You pay your money and take your choice, and I've done both.
All very interesting. As I have waxed a grand total of 4 chains, time and cost aren’t huge factors but despite the low volumes I am keen to use less damaging substances. A few questions:
- when you say 500ml UFO Clean will do 25 chains, I take it that’s reusing the whole 500ml in a container of some sort on exclusively new chains?
- how do you dispose of the UFO?
- do you find that the UFO is just as good for chains that have had proper immersive waxing + maybe a top up or two with drip wax?
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The problem with liquid suspensions of waxes is that they use additives (surfactants etc) to create the emulsion and stop the wax agglomerating into a single blob. When the wax dries out those additives remain, ready to solubulise the wax again at the first sign of water. Hence hot waxing is by far the better method as it is just water repellent wax and is very difficult for water to wash off on an ad hoc basis.
You may know more than me on the chemistry on this one, but I've found (sometimes) the opposite. Drip waxes like Tru Tension All Weather and UFO Wet Conditions have a percentage of (wax compatible) oil in them, which means on one hand they run dirtier but on the other they resist wet weather (and possibly corrosion) better. I'm not sure what the solvent is in most drip waxes, but I assumed it was some kind of solvent like alcohol which I'd imagined evaporating off and not leaving residue, but I may be wrong!
Photo of a few drip waxes I've done an experiment with leaving in clear bottles to separate. You can see UFO Wet has more solvent/oil, similar to Effetto Flower Power (right) which is a similar product:
(https://i.imgur.com/vITkm2Y.jpeg)
(https://imgur.com/a/KcVdpRf)
You pay your money and take your choice, and I've done both.
All very interesting. As I have waxed a grand total of 4 chains, time and cost aren’t huge factors but despite the low volumes I am keen to use less damaging substances. A few questions:
- when you say 500ml UFO Clean will do 25 chains, I take it that’s reusing the whole 500ml in a container of some sort on exclusively new chains?
- how do you dispose of the UFO?
- do you find that the UFO is just as good for chains that have had proper immersive waxing + maybe a top up or two with drip wax?
You can use 100ml to submerge one chain at a time, then pour it into another container for storage and repeat up to 5x.
(https://photos.fife.usercontent.google.com/pw/ABLVV87dZvj6uy-bHn7XeEDnXB39rZc269KBX0dMz05ZVzz6ispruYE1k0JoGQ=w817-h1085-s-no-gm?authuser=0)
TBH what I do is have three containers of UFO Clean - 'brand new', 'used' and 'past it's best'. I start with new, once I've cleaned a chain with it I stick it in 'used' then once it's looking too black to reliably strip a new chain I'll put it in 'past it's best', which is a spray bottle that I use for (and is still perfectly capable of) cleaning cassettes, chainrings etc on both waxed and 'normal' drive trains. Even at this stage UFO Clean is generally better than most bike branded degreasers.
....oh and yes, only use on new chains. If you put a used chain in, the (contents of the) container will be ruined!
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I think that the benefits of wax depend very much upon riding conditions.
When I lived in Oz, wind-blown sand and sand thrown up by tyres was a constant. It stuck to the drivetrain, causing rapid wear and friction.
It rains very heavily in Oz, but not frequently, so rain washing lube off chains is not so much a problem.
I switched from oil to motorcycle chain wax and it worked well. Some sand stuck to the wax, but it tended to be on the outside and often fell off.
Constant rain, IME, washes wax out of the roller parts of a chain, so you end up with a squeaky chain quite quickly. The uk road salt then rusts the chain within hours.
So, horses for courses. I wouldn't use wax where I live now, because the year-round likelihood of rain (and there is constant salt spray). Little or no chance of sand getting on chain.
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I use ultimate chain wax but it’s m wondering whether anyone adds anything to their wax , PTFE or something. I haven’t run into any issues really it’s perhaps a little harder and less quiet than I imagined but with a wipperman chain it does stay super clean and super shiny on my “dry” bike. Generally I carry a wee 10ml bottle of wet lube in case it rains anyway
I’ve had absolutely no joy using wax on the winter bike because E.Scotland is awfully wet. I just use bags of wet lube - it’s messy but everything remains in good condition when it gets cleaned.
I did read that after several “waxes” the bare chain becomes sort of hydrophobic anyway and it gets better in the wet over time but I don’t see how that’s a thing. Personally I use my winter bike a lot on the trainer and it’s annoying that both cassettes end up horrible - then that “ming” gets transferred to Mrs F’s drivetrain when she uses her bike on the trainer - aside from a ridiculous amount of cleaning I’d love a solution to that but it appears wax isn’t it
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You can use 100ml to submerge one chain at a time, then pour it into another container for storage and repeat up to 5x.
TBH what I do is have three containers of UFO Clean - 'brand new', 'used' and 'past it's best'. I start with new, once I've cleaned a chain with it I stick it in 'used' then once it's looking too black to reliably strip a new chain I'll put it in 'past it's best', which is a spray bottle that I use for (and is still perfectly capable of) cleaning cassettes, chainrings etc on both waxed and 'normal' drive trains. Even at this stage UFO Clean is generally better than most bike branded degreasers.
Thanks AlexEaling. I think I shall try this stuff.
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Just bought 3 additional chains, so that will be four to run in rotation.
CeramicSpeed UFO drive train cleaner.
Small (1.5l) slow cooker.
Silca Secret Blend Chain Wax.
That was a few quid.
What containers are people using for chain cleaning? I used to shake them up with detergent/degreaser in a 2 litre plastic milk bottle, but since we have milk delivered now, we don't get those anymore.
Thanks.
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I just use a retired lunchbox.
One thing to watch is that the temp of the wax doesn’t get too high. I think Silca recommend a lower max temp than some other waxes, I think they say too high a temp will damage the additives. Their website has lots of useful info. No need to go above the high 70s °C. And at the end of the process, once you have swizzled the chain around in the hot wax to your satisfaction, let it cool a little until a skin is just beginning to form, as that helps retain more wax when you slowly lift the chain out and hang it to cool above the slow cooker.
I also wax a quick link along with each chain.
I found prepping and waxing a new chain very straightforward and it’s a clean job. The time-consuming bit was getting the rest of the (not new) drivetrain completely oil-free. All the chain prepping will be a waste of time if the cassette and jockey wheels immediately contaminate it. You only need to do it once.
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Thanks Mr. Sergeant Pluck.
The crock pot I've got on order cooks up to about 75-80 °C on the low setting. Guessing that's with the lid on. It's only rated at 120W (1.5l model) so it's probably not going to get that warm with the lid on.
Mr. ZFC recommends only doing the quick link the first time as the wax can build up around the base of the pins and make it difficult to snap on properly. (Also recons they are four or five times re-usable despite what the manufacturers say)
Fortunately the rest of the drive train hasn't been used yet, except in a bike stand so should clean up fairly easily.
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The crock pot I've got on order cooks up to about 75-80 °C on the low setting. Guessing that's with the lid on. It's only rated at 120W (1.5l model) so it's probably not going to get that warm with the lid on.SNIP
That'll be with the lid OFF. ZFC says in a number of places that the lid should not be on or the wax will become too hot (on low, that is). I'm pretty sure Silca say that too. It's the wax itself which degrades if too hot, rather than the additives.
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Is this a euphemism?
That was my first reaction.
Belated acknowledgement of internet win of the day.
Bloody hell.
My reaction to doing anything to my chains that involves more than applying a bit of oil now and then.
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I keep reading the thread title as "Waxing your chin" and wondering what's wrong with shaving.
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I keep reading the thread title as "Waxing your chin" and wondering what's wrong with shaving.
Chin's ok, it's the upper lip that's hell. Especially if you get it up your nose.
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The crock pot I've got on order cooks up to about 75-80 °C on the low setting.
I use a kitchen thermometer. I don't use the lid. Put the chain on top of the unmelted wax before you switch on - then the chain heats up along with the wax which helps penetration.
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The crock pot I've got on order cooks up to about 75-80 °C on the low setting.
I use a kitchen thermometer. I don't use the lid. Put the chain on top of the unmelted wax before you switch on - then the chain heats up along with the wax which helps penetration.
A 20€ IR thermometer would save having to clean the thermometer, quoth the lazy man.
I used to put the chain on top of the wax but the PTFE powder sinks when it's cooling so nowadays I like to let it melt completely and give it a good stir before dunking the chain. My chain goes in warm anyway since the last stage of cleaning involves pouring a kettle of boiling water over it.
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Re Temperature for reference, I have burnt/ruined wax in my specific slow cooker by leaving it on too long on both 'high' and 'low' settings. 'Warm' seems to get to/hold at around 74 degrees, so may be a safer option. I have gone one step further than the IR thermometer and have one of these permanently in the pot set to between 84-88 degrees:
https://amzn.eu/d/6RQVPpg
Correspondence with MSW suggested getting the wax hot, but not beyond 93 degrees, so the above temperature range works with a margin for error.
Note that even 93 degrees is still under the boiling point for water, so putting chains in after rinsing without fully drying them could end up with a pool of water sitting under the wax (likely where you're swishing your chain around). Probably less of an issue if you're changing your wax regularly.
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Re Temperature for reference, I have burnt/ruined wax in my specific slow cooker by leaving it on too long on both 'high' and 'low' settings. 'Warm' seems to get to/hold at around 74 degrees, so may be a safer option. I have gone one step further than the IR thermometer and have one of these permanently in the pot set to between 84-88 degrees:
https://amzn.eu/d/6RQVPpg
Correspondence with MSW suggested getting the wax hot, but not beyond 93 degrees, so the above temperature range works with a margin for error.
Note that even 93 degrees is still under the boiling point for water, so putting chains in after rinsing without fully drying them could end up with a pool of water sitting under the wax (likely where you're swishing your chain around). Probably less of an issue if you're changing your wax regularly.
Could use that for a PID on my Europiccola. ;)
Re 93° you're right, but it doesn't need to boil to evaporate, and it certainly gets encouraged to do that. I leave the chain in the wax for 2-3 hours, lifting it out occasionally to stir the pot.
My two chains have nearly 15,000 km between them, and still less that 0.5% stretch each.
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- do you find that the UFO is just as good for chains that have had proper immersive waxing + maybe a top up or two with drip wax?
Hope I've understood correctly, but you don't need to apply any solvents or cleaning products to a chain you've previously immersion waxed and/or topped up with drip wax. Just maybe give it a wipe, pour boiling water over it to wash off any surface crap and then straight in a wax pot. That's one of the big wins vs oil.
What containers are people using for chain cleaning? I used to shake them up with detergent/degreaser in a 2 litre plastic milk bottle, but since we have milk delivered now, we don't get those anymore.
Thanks.
I find protein shaker bottles are pretty good, solid, cheap, and helpfully allow things like pouring off the liquid through the spout without losing the chain.
Don't use glass, I managed to break a mason jar shaking a chain.
Oh, and detergent / degreaser is rather poor vs. white spirit then meths/isopropyl alcohol. Thought the Silca and UFO chain strippers may work out less hassle and expense in the long run.
Also, Silca bought this out today which if it works as magically as it seems may make this a non-issue.
https://silca.cc/products/strip-chip
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watched the Silca method on YT. Seems quite good. you get the vessel/wax and I think the degreaser and off you go.
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I did do my first 'waxing' session. It was a bit messy.
I dug out two squash bottles from the recyling. Thoroughly rinsed them. Set them aside to dry.
Cut off the long piece of a wire coat hanger, fashioned one end into a hook and made another 90 degree bend in it else where. I figured I'd use that for fishing chains out of bottles and dropping the chains into the wax.
I put 100ml of UFO chain clean into each squash bottle.
I popped each chain in bottle 1, gave it a good shake and after three minutes fished them out.
I popped each chain in bottle 2, gave it a good shake and after three minutes fished them out.
I then rinsed all four chains well with water, dried them off with paper towels and finished them with the heat gun on a lowish to moderate setting to get them completely dry.
The Silca Secret Blend Chain wax went into the small Swan slow cooker, which was put on the slow setting. First chain placed on top.
I found I couldn't really fit anything through the chain to neatly drop it into and fish it out of the slow cooker - it really was just a little bit too small for that. I found myself fishing the chain out with the hook end of the makeshift tool.
And then I waited. It took a long time for the wax to melt. I periodically checked the wax temperature with an infrared thermometer. What I found was, that that the slow cooker did not distribute the heat very evenly.
When the wax melted, but before the temperature exceed 70 degrees, I removed the lid.
I went to fish the chain out, and found not all the wax had melted. All of the wax on top had melted, but the chain was immersed in a solid lump of molten wax.
So I left things longer still.
Eventually, the chain was no longer immersed in molten wax. I lifted the chain out with the makeshift tool. Ooops. Should let the makeshift tool get warm first otherwise I pull a load of wax out with it!
Hooked the chain about half way along it's length and held it up above the slow cooker whilst the excess wax dripped off. Wound up with solidify wax globules at either end of the chain.
When chain had cooled significantly, placed it down on top of some paper towel, mainly to make it look like I was trying to take some care, doing this in the kitchen.
Rinsed and repeated for the other three chains.
Put some of the chains down to soon and they stuck to the kitchen towel. It seemed to separate fairly easily though.
Unfortunately, the wax did get quite warm at one stage - north of 85 degrees C. I think some of it may have touched 90 degrees C at one point, but as I said, temperature wasn't evenlty distributed. Still, considerably more than stated in the slow cookers manual.
I seemed to wind up with a lot of wax on the chains - even without allowing for the wax to cool slightly before removing the chains. The plates seemed to be well covered.
Wiggled each link in one of the chains free. Re-installed it on the bike. With the bike and the stand, popped the bike into small-small and big-big, running the chain through a few times. Lots of small wax flakes everywhere.
Popped the others in sealed sandwhich bags for safe keeping.
All in all, not too bad. Took longer than expected.
Perhaps should not have cheaped out so much on the slow cooker.
Net cost of doing this:
- 3 x Ultegra 12 speed chains, found for £30 each; total £90[1]
- 1 x Silca Secret Blend Hot Melt Wax - £44
- 1 x CeramicSpeed UFO Eco-friendly Bike Drivetrain Cleaner 500ml - £22.99
- 1 x SWAN SF17010N 1.5 Litre Round Stainless Steel Slow Cooker - £14.99
- 1 x IR digital thermometer - loaned FoC
Total: 171.98
Haven't decided yet when I tend to cycle chains. I'm thinking ~200km - 300km.
Wondering if I should carry some of the drip wax in case I'm ever caught short ... but I understand that needs to be applied some time before the bike is ridden, so maybe not that useful.
[1]: from eBay; seem and look legit; usual RRP £50; 4th chain already on the, as yet unridden, bike