Posh and Posher: Why Public School Boys Rule Britain.

[Wowbagger]

Back on topic surely the reason why public school boys rule Britain is because they think they can. They are given the confidence and aspiration to do such things and combine that with better than average grades getting them into the best universities and the network of like minded and well connected friends that school and university gives them they end up with a much higher chance than average of making it to the top.
Imagine being at one of the top public schools and saying that you wanted to be PM. It wouldn't seem ridiculous or a flight of fancy to your peers or teachers, now try that thought experiment with an average comprehensive.

Pretty much, yes. There are several factors at work but one of the most important is class size. When the classes are down to a dozen or so then you can do a hell of a lot of work. Every kid is on task all the time, marking and preparing/tailoring the work for each individual becomes simple and you haven't got a rump of 10% or so of the class playing up because you can't give them huge amounts of attention, as you generally have when classes are 30 or more kids.

There are some teachers who are good enough to be able to cope with a class as big as that, but I couldn't do it to my satisfaction. It's terribly demanding and a huge proportion of those who can either get promoted to a situation where they don't have to do it so much any more (my daughter's a case in point here: she teaches mostly 6th form when she's not on maternity leave) or they burn out.

[Clandy]

As to the one-size-fits-all understanding of -isms, I agree with Ural Kunst here:  

I think you've totally missed the point about prejudice and power, Clandy.  Without the power, the -ism is pretty irrelevant.a

I don't. Twenty-five years as a union man (T&GWU 1107 branch) taught me that racism is racism, and sexism is sexism, if it wasn't then no white person would ever have won a race case  and no man would ever have won a sexism argument, and there were plenty.
There are no degrees of sexism or racism.
To agree with you and ural would be to say that some sexism and racism is ok, and that equality is wrong.

[border-rider]

Can we replace the word"posh"  with "gay" or "black" and see if people are still willing to defend the original statement?  

Only if we're going to argue that posh people are a disadvantaged section of society who are discriminated against and may consequently find it difficult to establish their place in the world.  I'd suggest: no, not directly.

[Wowbagger]

Private shools in France = catholic schools. I went to one. My parents didn't pay much more than in a state school (we paid a £300 p.a. 20 years ago as opposed to £100). Yes, however, education was better. But, as I understand it, the staff etc. are still paid by the Education Nationale, i.e. the state.

As for the UK, well, I will be deciding where I send my kids. If state schooling is poor, which it is in many areas, then I reserve the right to invest myself in my daugther's future, seeing as the UK is very liberal and has left it for me to decide to do so. Will she become a little pest? well that is also down, in part, to me at home and, with our respective origins and a strong belief in meritocraty, I think she will remain well grounded.

Thanks, Frenchie. That sort of answers a point I tried to establish a day or two ago with Pancho, before the entire thread blew up. It would appear that there is not the same availability in France or Germany as there is in this country to the £12000 p.a. privilege which a remarkable number of British parents seem to be able to afford for their children.

[Wowbagger]

I think you've totally missed the point about prejudice and power, Clandy.  Without the power, the -ism is pretty irrelevant.

As to bottom shaving, Julian is being a little disingenuous in taking your words literally.

Julian waxes.

But having been to a posh school, she'd never Wayne.  

OK, that's my tail-coat over there. And the topper, please.

[Panoramix]

Private shools in France = catholic schools. I went to one. My parents didn't pay much more than in a state school (we paid a £300 p.a. 20 years ago as opposed to £100). Yes, however, education was better. But, as I understand it, the staff etc. are still paid by the Education Nationale, i.e. the state.

As for the UK, well, I will be deciding where I send my kids. If state schooling is poor, which it is in many areas, then I reserve the right to invest myself in my daugther's future, seeing as the UK is very liberal and has left it for me to decide to do so. Will she become a little pest? well that is also down, in part, to me at home and, with our respective origins and a strong belief in meritocraty, I think she will remain well grounded.

Thanks, Frenchie. That sort of answers a point I tried to establish a day or two ago with Pancho, before the entire thread blew up. It would appear that there is not the same availability in France or Germany as there is in this country to the £12000 p.a. privilege which a remarkable number of British parents seem to be able to afford for their children.

There are very few £12000 p.a. schools in France but if you go to one of these, people will assume that you are thick. There is even a derogatory name for these: "boite à bac"

I went to a Catholic school too from the equivalent of year 3 until my A level. My dad used to dislike them as he had a really bad experience so I started at the local "comprehensive" but the teachers were not the most open minded, the teacher unions were politicised and my parents sent me to the local Catholic school after a couple of years.

There definitely was stiff competition between the two schools and I think this is one of the reason why academic results are better in Western France. With insight I think that was good choice, out of my primary class a third ended up doing well academically and several have done very well professionally, the vast majority are in stable relationships and rather happy. Most people travelled to Paris to find a good job but I am not the only one who went abroad, people are starting to head back to Brittany though. You don't need to be posh to go to a Catholic school, in some cases the fees are adjusted depending on the means of the parents.

Btw there were girls vs boys games and it never crossed my mind that this was sexist. You didn't need to pretend to be Catholic to be admitted, tolerance was quite high on the agenda, discipline was enforced. My class once got into trouble as the headteacher felt we weren't making an effort to integrate a new gipsy kid. Although relatively calm I ended a few times in detention. Racism was a non issue as very few foreigners (apart from the Brits) come to live in Brittany. Political activism (by teachers or pupils)  was a definite no no once you had crossed the school gates.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I think that's a bit harsh on the public school kids.  Yes, children cry when they lose, but to say it's mere sense of entitlement is to lose a lot of the background there.

Kids at private school - as I know, having been to one, as ESL has kindly pointed out - don't have as much of a sense of entitlement as you suggest.  (Possibly at Eton / Rugby / Harrow, but not at places like the one I went to.)  Yes, the parents have to pay, but they don't just push the money in like a parking meter and leave the kids doing nothing.  

To get in, you pass some hideously difficult exams (our 11+ paper was based on a GCSE text).  If you are willing to work hard enough, there are amazing opportunities there - peripatetic music lessons, a huge art lab, playing fields for miles, drama clubs, teachers who are always willing to spend morning break going over work with you.  It's an atmosphere in which it's difficult nott to learn.  

There are peripatetic music lessons in state schools. I know because my mother was one of the teachers, and my sister recently had an interview to teach the violin in a state school.

[Exit Stage Left]

We do have in our presence somone well qualified to comment on Grammar Schools and social mobility. The programme was bemoaning the fact that it was now unlikely that anyone from a less moneyed background could now do PPE at Oxford.
But some counties do still have selective Grammar Schools, and their results are good. One factor is that they atrract a high standard of teaching staff. Essex and Kent spring to mind. I remember reading a thread about a debating competition held at Maidstone Girl's Grammar, and the two privately-educated women wo went along to help with the judging of it seemed quite impressed by the standard, as was the proud father of the Head of History at that school.

Oh, fantastic! Straight 10s for that personal attack, ESL. Do you actually make notes on ancient threads and posts so that you can use them years later to attack people? You sad individual! (Edited on advice)

I've really riled the right-whingers today, haven't I?  

I would expect a Head of History in a State Grammar School to have watched a programme about the effect on social mobility of the abolition of State Grammar Schools in many areas across the country, and to have an an opinion about it. We hear a lot about her position from you. I'm curious if she shares her Father's opinion of Grammar Schools, as she works in one.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Isms are privilege plus power. 

I coudn't help thinking when I read that, "Communism is Soviet power plus the electrification of the whole country." Ism is power plus power!  

[Wowbagger]

We do have in our presence somone well qualified to comment on Grammar Schools and social mobility. The programme was bemoaning the fact that it was now unlikely that anyone from a less moneyed background could now do PPE at Oxford.
But some counties do still have selective Grammar Schools, and their results are good. One factor is that they atrract a high standard of teaching staff. Essex and Kent spring to mind. I remember reading a thread about a debating competition held at Maidstone Girl's Grammar, and the two privately-educated women wo went along to help with the judging of it seemed quite impressed by the standard, as was the proud father of the Head of History at that school.

Oh, fantastic! Straight 10s for that personal attack, ESL. Do you actually make notes on ancient threads and posts so that you can use them years later to attack people? You sad individual! (Edited on advice)

I've really riled the right-whingers today, haven't I?  

I would expect a Head of History in a State Grammar School to have watched a programme about the effect on social mobility of the abolition of State Grammar Schools in many areas across the country, and to have an an opinion about it. We hear a lot about her position from you. I'm curious if she shares her Father's opinion of Grammar Schools, as she works in one.

I don't know why you are so fixated about my "social mobility" as you call it. My grandmother was a teacher. My dad was a teacher. I am a teacher and my daughter is a teacher. Where's the mobility in that?

And I suggest you re-read the long piece I wrote for your benefit about my view on the entire business of selective education. You are clearly a slow learner.

[Karla]

Can we replace the word"posh"  with "gay" or "black" and see if people are still willing to defend the original statement?  

Only if we're going to argue that posh people are a disadvantaged section of society who are discriminated against and may consequently find it difficult to establish their place in the world.  I'd suggest: no, not directly.

So does this mean that instilling prejudice and class hatred is okay as long as you don't do it against an already vulnerable group? 

[border-rider]

No. Happy to help  

[Exit Stage Left]

We do have in our presence somone well qualified to comment on Grammar Schools and social mobility. The programme was bemoaning the fact that it was now unlikely that anyone from a less moneyed background could now do PPE at Oxford.
But some counties do still have selective Grammar Schools, and their results are good. One factor is that they atrract a high standard of teaching staff. Essex and Kent spring to mind. I remember reading a thread about a debating competition held at Maidstone Girl's Grammar, and the two privately-educated women wo went along to help with the judging of it seemed quite impressed by the standard, as was the proud father of the Head of History at that school.

Oh, fantastic! Straight 10s for that personal attack, ESL. Do you actually make notes on ancient threads and posts so that you can use them years later to attack people? You sad individual! (Edited on advice)

I've really riled the right-whingers today, haven't I?  

I would expect a Head of History in a State Grammar School to have watched a programme about the effect on social mobility of the abolition of State Grammar Schools in many areas across the country, and to have an an opinion about it. We hear a lot about her position from you. I'm curious if she shares her Father's opinion of Grammar Schools, as she works in one.

I don't know why you are so fixated about my "social mobility" as you call it. My grandmother was a teacher. My dad was a teacher. I am a teacher and my daughter is a teacher. Where's the mobility in that?

And I suggest you re-read the long piece I wrote for your benefit about my view on the entire business of selective education. You are clearly a slow learner.

Did you watch the show?
Its central thesis was that is is more difficult for those from, non-moneyed backgrounds to aspire to high political office for two main reasons. The abolition of Grammar Schools in most areas has meant a flattening of educational achievement in the state sector. At the same time it has become more difficult to enter politics without having studied at Oxbridge, preferably PPE, followed by a spell in a think tank.
Essex and Kent would seem to be exceptions which might shed some light on whether state selective provision provides more opportunity for those from unmoneyed backgrounds to progress to Oxbridge, and to get good results in subjects such as PPE.
At the same time I have an interest in the long standing problem of parents earnestly believing in the comprehensive system, but not for their own children. You have stated that you own childrens' grammar school careers were a sort of accident, and that primary school was more important. I'm scratching my head somewhat over that, and so is everyone who has had to pay for selective education.

[Wowbagger]

Just read it.

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=41784.msg808068#msg808068

[pcolbeck]

Oxbridge, preferably PPE, followed by a spell in a think tank.

I agree this is important as well. MPs used to come from business or the unions as well as from those who just wanted to be in parliament from an early age.
These days the unions are not so strong and most aren't so politically driven as they were (a good thing for unions but a bad thing for parliament) or as powerful (hence they dont attract the same class of driven individuals they used to (though perhaps they do attract more those who wish to serve their fellow man rather than to lead). As for business unless you have a sudden road to Damascus moment and develop a burning desire to run for parliament you aren't going to give up a successful business career to be an MP - loss of earnings, no chance of real power for years if ever why would you ? If you have already made yourself a millionaire then you might want to try politics.
I think media scrutiny has a lot to do with it as well. Who in there right minds bar those obsessed with politics (rather than the ends it servers) would want to be an MP when the media will try and pull apart every aspect of your life, Unless you are some kind of saint you aren't safe. I really think we need to re evaluate what we consider acceptable standards for MPs. Corruption is wrong obviously and should be punished mercilessly but I really don't care if my MP is having an affair or is gay or likes dressing as a gimp every third Friday so long as he or she does the job well and represents the constituency and the country to the best of their abilities.

[mattc]

I think media scrutiny has a lot to do with it as well. Who in there right minds bar those obsessed with politics (rather than the ends it servers) would want to be an MP when the media will try and pull apart every aspect of your life, Unless you are some kind of saint you aren't safe. I really think we need to re evaluate what we consider acceptable standards for MPs. Corruption is wrong obviously and should be punished mercilessly but I really don't care if my MP is having an affair or is gay or likes dressing as a gimp every third Friday so long as he or she does the job well and represents the constituency and the country to the best of their abilities.

Completely agree. But have f-all idea how we go about it

[Cudzoziemiec]

It won't stop unless the media see no sales/ratings in it. So one way to stop it would be not to watch programmes like this!

[mattc]

More on R4 in a minute:
BBC - BBC Radio 4 Programmes - How to Get into Oxford

[Pancho]

Update on the second round of the  public speaking comp this evening:

Younger age group: independent school wiped the floor with all comers. Hands down win for confidence, style and content.

Senior age group: state school wiped the floor with all comers. Hands down win for confidence, style and content.

So, we'll call it a draw. Next round in a month's time.

Edit: no one cried.

[Exit Stage Left]

I wonder what impact the internet and political discussions such as this will have on recruitment into political life. They provide an easy hit of the manipulation of ideas without the physical context and the networking afforded by the real world. There's no need to jpoin a political party to articulate an ideological viewpoint, and no need for the interpersonal skills so essential to political success, and which the higher echelons of the public school system specialises in providing. It's unlikely that anyone can be groomed for power via a VDU.
Meanwhile the steady flow of raw opinion provides a niche for voluntary or low-paid political apparartchiks in the structures of the main parties.
I wonder if the logical conclusion might be virtual constituencies for citizens of the internet to vote in.

[Pancho]

I don't know. I used to have high hopes for the internet and places like this to be a recruiting ground for greater involvement in public live.

You might remember my frequent call on transport matters suggesting that people got involved in local politics and be the policy setter rather than just mank about it here. I don't think anyone did.

Instead of trigger for mass participation, it's become a substitute. "I'm politically involved because I clicked a button on Facebook supporting a cause".

So, yes, ESL, I'm afraid that politics and the public arena in general will be left open to those educated in the skills and with the right connections. As for a flow of raw opinion - I am yet to be convinced that public opinion has any bearing on what politicians do.

[Exit Stage Left]

Somebody will be sat in Millbank looking at Mumsnet as a reward for their 1st in PPE, which has to be worth a laugh.

[border-rider]

I'm not convinced, sorry. 

The depoliticisation of public intercourse was in place well before the internet, and the biggest barrier to involvement of the amateur is the managerialism that has largely replaced poliitics.  Forums are not drawing people away from sitting on parish councils & stuff - the sorts of people who get involved will always do so in The Real - they're more of an adjunct.  In their absence there would be less discussion, not more.

In the same way that this forum has facilitated people coming together to ride together, it's also seen people arrange to meet to do other stuff - some of it even vaguely political

You might remember my frequent call on transport matters suggesting that people got involved in local politics and be the policy setter rather than just mank about it here. I don't think anyone did.

There remain tremendous barriers to just getting involved in local politics.  One generally has to do the drudge work in a party to be able to stand on their ticket (and if the prevailing party in your area is not to your taste you're stuffed) and local council seats tend to be hotly-contested by quite dedicated people. That's probably as it should be, but it does mean that one can't just roll up and get a seat on the transport committee.

[Wowbagger]

You might remember my frequent call on transport matters suggesting that people got involved in local politics and be the policy setter rather than just mank about it here. I don't think anyone did.

I've tried - God, I've tried.

The net result of my efforts was to be taken to court maliciously by my local council.

[Pancho]

You might remember my frequent call on transport matters suggesting that people got involved in local politics and be the policy setter rather than just mank about it here. I don't think anyone did.

There remain tremendous barriers to just getting involved in local politics.  One generally has to do the drudge work in a party to be able to stand on their ticket (and if the prevailing party in your area is not to your taste you're stuffed) and local council seats tend to be hotly-contested by quite dedicated people. That's probably as it should be, but it does mean that one can't just roll up and get a seat on the transport committee.

I've spent a great deal of time trying to bring these barriers down because I believe that not only is it democratically unhealthy at a local level to have such a demographically limited local representation but, also (and relevant to this thread), access to local decision making can serve as a gateway to MP, MEP etc.

This whole thread (aside from the meanders) has talked about education and the programme cited John Major as an example of grammar school entryism - but his (and many others') apprenticeship in local politics is often forgotten.

The biggest single barrier to wider involvement is the low pay that councillors receive. This effectively limits any meaningful "career" to those who can afford it through personal wealth (pension pots in the main which why chambers have an average age of Noah).