Author Topic: A random thread for small things that don't really warrant a thread of their own  (Read 2999765 times)

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
And give serious consideration to abandoning Facebook in particular, because it seems to be doing a great deal of harm to democratic society, is unlikely to stop doing so in the medium term, and anyone who deliberately feeds it content is to some extent complicit.

I agree entirely, but the dilemma I and many others face is that I'd be cutting off contact with a lot of people and groups I want to stay in touch with...

Oh, I'm acutely aware of that.  I've effectively lost plenty of friendships because of my unwillingness to sign up for Facebook.  It must be even harder to make an active decision to stop using it, rather than just watch your friends disappear from the wider internet and wonder why.

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
I think there's an element of BLM activists asking white folk (and indeed People of Colour including Black folk) to do our own research and learning rather than expecting to be spoon fed.

And when the police routinely are very much a bigger danger than the alleged dangers they're supposed to prevent, I can understand why there isn't nuance. Asking oppressed people to be polite and engage in reasonable debate is often another distraction tactic, so I understand why they may not engage.

To some extent it is why I try and share what I understand so Black people don't have to do it so much and to help others understand the reasoning behind the whole discussion. I think it is very very hard for white people like myself who have never or rarely had issues with the police to understand just how frightening and unsafe they are for (many) Black and other People of Colour.

The problem I have with this "BLM is our phrase and you're not allowed to use it" mentality is that it is in itself massively divisive and provides the oxygen to the bigots to turn round and say "well why don't you go back where you came from then". 

I've stood in a rugby club bar with someone proudly talking about how he told that Paki, "I'm in charge, you're the brown guy, you do what I say", I walked away rather than confronting it - That still makes me cringe.  I've had people tell me to my face I shouldnt be with girlfriend X or Y because they're Welsh or Indian and I'm not, or with my wife.  That doesn't mean I understand what it's like to be racially profiled for stop and search (in my case it was entirely different circumstances) but neither does it mean I think the solution is to put up even more barriers.
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Now, what I really came here for was to tell about a digital display by a cycleway. It had 331 as the number of cyclists so far this month and 79 so far today. Seems to me to be an unlikely distribution. This was at about 10.30 so the bulk might have been going in to the industrial estate.

They might both be correct numbers if the counter was only installed a week ago, rather than prior to the start of the month. Just a thought.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Bike Lives Matter? "Rider's Lens"
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Giraffe

  • I brake for Giraffes
Now, what I really came here for was to tell about a digital display by a cycleway. It had 331 as the number of cyclists so far this month and 79 so far today. Seems to me to be an unlikely distribution. This was at about 10.30 so the bulk might have been going in to the industrial estate.

They might both be correct numbers if the counter was only installed a week ago, rather than prior to the start of the month. Just a thought.
True, but I have since recalled seeing there before and I've not been that way for some months, for some reason or another. Still could have been reset or replaced though. No idea when I'll be back that way as I spent an awful lot on wholefoods goodies to get me through the winter (AKA optimism).
2x4: thick plank; 4x4: 2 of 'em.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/21/climate-science-deniers-to-give-road-safety-evidence-to-mps
When are we going to realize that balance doesn't mean giving equal weight to opinions that are just wrong? I look forward to the Flat Earth Society getting a position on the board of Ordnance Survey. And Garmin.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
When are we going to realize that balance doesn't mean giving equal weight to opinions that are just wrong?

I fear that ship has sailed. I blame facebook.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

ian

It seems like our education system doesn't feature anything on how to critically evaluate information – that's becoming more important, FB and social media aren't simply going to go away, but people could and should look at the information they are presented with and know how to do so critically. And that's not just individuals, but the media and other organizations.

The evidence for anthropogenic climate change at this point is indisputable, it's not really an option to say you don't accept it, because the evidence is there. It's like falling down and then disputing that gravity had a part in it.

It is right and proper to hear the views and opinions of everybody even if you consider them to be crackpots.

Only this morning Geoff Boycott is slamming the BBC for sacrificing quality for political correctness.  Personally I would argue that the BBC sacrificed a bigoted and self-opinionated moron for a more informed and up-to-date view but I'm sure that Boycott would disagree with me. 

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
You can listen to people without giving them a platform and input into official policy decisions, and the legitimacy that confers.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
surely both science and social opinion only advance through dispute?

Otherwise we'd all still be flat-earthers thinking the universe goes round the earth, and that it's OK to beat your wife with something no wider than you thumb and snaffle all her property when you marry?
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

ian

It is right and proper to hear the views and opinions of everybody even if you consider them to be crackpots.

Only this morning Geoff Boycott is slamming the BBC for sacrificing quality for political correctness.  Personally I would argue that the BBC sacrificed a bigoted and self-opinionated moron for a more informed and up-to-date view but I'm sure that Boycott would disagree with me.

Except it's not, not in situations where there is no evidence to support their views. It's giving them a platform that makes those views appear both credible and equal even when they are not.

There's might have been reasonable cause to discuss the reality and causes of climate change two decades ago, but now the only thing to discuss is how it will change, and there are certainly different opinions on that based on the current models.

You can listen to people without giving them a platform and input into official policy decisions, and the legitimacy that confers.

But what you are saying is that your view is the only one that really counts.   They will feel likewise about your views and opinions.

I am sure that on the forum here are just as many supporters of the tories, trump, bolsonaro, etc as there are opponents of their position. 

It is right and proper to hear the views and opinions of everybody even if you consider them to be crackpots.

Only this morning Geoff Boycott is slamming the BBC for sacrificing quality for political correctness.  Personally I would argue that the BBC sacrificed a bigoted and self-opinionated moron for a more informed and up-to-date view but I'm sure that Boycott would disagree with me.

Except it's not, not in situations where there is no evidence to support their views. It's giving them a platform that makes those views appear both credible and equal even when they are not.

There's might have been reasonable cause to discuss the reality and causes of climate change two decades ago, but now the only thing to discuss is how it will change, and there are certainly different opinions on that based on the current models.

I have to disagree.  It is not for us as individuals to decide which opinion holds greater weight.  You dismiss theirs because it does not conform to your position which you regard as logical and obvious.  They will feel likewise. 

To dismiss any alternate view is simply authoritarian.  Is that acceptable?  I don't think so.

ian

That's the problem though. You've dumped centuries of empiricism and replaced it with the marvellously postmodern all-viewpoints-are-valid.

Taking climate change, it's not an opinion. It's not a belief. It's supported by reams of evidence and data and accepted by essentially every scientist and researcher in the field. There's no debate to be had on the reality of it. It's not 'contentious.' This is the same logic as to why we don't seriously allow for flat-earth theory, that's an opinion, but we know the earth isn't flat because there is no data to support that hypothesis, but endless data and evidence that the earth isn't flat.

There's debate about how much climate change and the outcome of those changes, of course. But flat out denialism, presenting it as a controversy or contentious issue, or insinuating that the science 'isn't settled' at this point in a lie.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
I have to disagree.  It is not for us as individuals to decide which opinion holds greater weight.  You dismiss theirs because it does not conform to your position which you regard as logical and obvious.  They will feel likewise. 

You're taking being reasonable to a ludicrous extreme. If you allow every crank a platform to air their opinions, genuine serious discussion becomes overwhelmed in a sea of shite.

No one is saying the consensus cannot be challenged, but any challenge must be made in reasonable terms, backed by supporting arguments and empirical evidence.

People are entitled to hold whatever crackpot views they like, that doesn't mean I should be required to hear them.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

surely both science and social opinion only advance through dispute?

Otherwise we'd all still be flat-earthers thinking the universe goes round the earth, and that it's OK to beat your wife with something no wider than you thumb and snaffle all her property when you marry?

Erm, no, not when it comes to science.

Science advances through observation and the scientific method. Plus rigorous application of "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof".

What constitutes a moral standing varies from culture to culture, and over time.

Facts don't, only our understanding and observation of facts change.

Are Newton's laws of motion 'facts'?
Well, they are an adequate description of motion, for a set range of circumstances. Adequate enough that they can be used for some engineering design.

<i>Marmite slave</i>

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
You can listen to people without giving them a platform and input into official policy decisions, and the legitimacy that confers.

But what you are saying is that your view is the only one that really counts.   They will feel likewise about your views and opinions.

I am sure that on the forum here are just as many supporters of the tories, trump, bolsonaro, etc as there are opponents of their position.
The ABD have opinions, along the lines of "faster is safer", but they're also disputing established fact concerning climate change.

600 years ago there was a serious argument to be had about the ideas of that nutter Gallileo. But today, an argument for a terracentric (is that the word?) universe now doesn't deserve serious consideration (unless someone comes up with amazing new observations).
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Simply not agreeing with the opinions of somebody else and seeking to back up your perspective with your "frame of reference" doesn't make either opinion right, or wrong.  Science gave us nuclear weapons and GM.  Is science ways right?

I am not claiming to be an advocate for the ABD but what I will say is that unless you engage with people with different views to your own you will never have the opportunity to change either your view or their views.  Amongst all of the things that you might disagree with them you might discover a nugget which by refusing to tolerate difference you would never have found.

In my opinion we should never stop listening because we might stop learning if we do.

You might disagree with my perspective as it seems some of you do but unless you listen to opposing views to your own you will never know if I or others like me who seek to defend freedom of expression might actually be on to something.  After all, if freedom of expression is suppressed that would of course include your freedom of expression.  That might suit you now but things change very quickly in oppressive, authoritarian regimes.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
But this isn't listening. It's giving a platform. We can listen to 7-day creationists but should we teach it in schools? (Oh, we do nowadays... )
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Science gave us nuclear weapons and GM.  Is science ways right?

Well, the fact that nuclear bombs work as intended shows that the science behind them is "right".

Don't conflate empirical evidence with morality. They're different kinds of right and wrong.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

ian

These aren't opinions though. It's not like saying cats are better than dogs. In not case of not listening, for decades there was debate about climate change. This has been resolved by evidence. In a story about astronomy, we don't invite an geocentrist to balance those prevaling heliocentric views. It's not an opinion that the earth orbits the sun, we have established that it's the case through evidence and data.

Science is based on evidence and empiricism. We have nuclear weapons because of fission and fusion, and we understand the processes behind those at the subatomic level. It's an opinion whether or not you think nuclear weapons is a good thing, but the nuclear weapons themselves aren't an opinion. You can say the same about genetic modification.

When we invite organizations to the table that deny all existing evidence, we are giving them a platform, making that denial credible. People see that, and think, well, there must be something to it, they're on the BBC. But it's not a credible belief. It's not supported by the evidence or the data.

The result of this approach is that a lot of people don't accept global warming. A nominee to a Supreme Court judge thinks climate change is 'contentious.' Elsewhere, people think intelligent design and creationism is an alternative to evolutionary theory, despite the fact there's no evidence. But they're presented as credible alternatives. That's the entire strategy of the groups behind them, of course. Teach the controversy, they say, while manufacturing that synthetic controversy.

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
surely both science and social opinion only advance through dispute?

Otherwise we'd all still be flat-earthers thinking the universe goes round the earth, and that it's OK to beat your wife with something no wider than you thumb and snaffle all her property when you marry?

Erm, no, not when it comes to science.

Science advances through observation and the scientific method. Plus rigorous application of "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof".

What constitutes a moral standing varies from culture to culture, and over time.

Facts don't, only our understanding and observation of facts change.

Are Newton's laws of motion 'facts'?
Well, they are an adequate description of motion, for a set range of circumstances. Adequate enough that they can be used for some engineering design.

I would agree with you in part.  You seem to think science exists in a vacuum of facts and logic which it does not, it is also tempered by societal influences, religion etc whether we like it or not.

Yes, fundamentally science is based on observation and demonstration of a hypothesis (under specific conditions, let's not forget that part), but the moral and social aspects can significantly influence which hypotheses are tested and reported, and which therefore influence the "agreed science".  You call it observation and the scientific method, but there must be a disputation of the existing "facts" in order to put a different set of "facts" to the test. Not everything is a discovery based on whimsical inquisitiveness.

Don't by any means take that as me suggesting that Boycott or Nigel Lawson have valid opinions on the science of climate change by the way, or suggesting that they should be give equal air time without serious scrutiny of their "evidence".

“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Yes, fundamentally science is based on observation and demonstration of a hypothesis (under specific conditions, let's not forget that part), but the moral and social aspects can significantly influence which hypotheses are tested and reported, and which therefore influence the "agreed science".

This is true, and any scientist worth their salt will accept the truth of it, but to use this as an excuse to regard any scientifically established principle you don't like as "contentious" - as the climate change deniers and creationists do - is egregious logic.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Science gave us nuclear weapons and GM.  Is science ways right?


Science didn't. Those who chose to apply science in a certain way did.  And if GM (effectively a short-cut to selective breeding, that had been going on for centuries - remember when wheat was over 6ft tall)) can help feed the world, I'm all for it. YMMV.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)