Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => The Knowledge => GPS => Topic started by: mzjo on 19 November, 2019, 09:59:40 pm
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Up until now I have been quite happy without a gps for cycling. I occasionally use one in the car (mainly for finding addresses for work).
I am now thinking of getting one for audaxing (200's mainly). I don't need one for at least 95% of my riding, a paper map suits me fine. Also in France even audax routes are pretty simple so lots of points are not really necessary. I don't want anything that does "performance" data, connections to power meters, heart meters and that stuff. Nor am I interested in Strava, heat maps, Veloviewer or all that stuff.
I also don't have any intention of blowing my cycling budget, small as it is, on a gadget. If I can get what I want for 200€ or less that's fine. If more it's probably not worth it to me.
I think what I am looking for is turn by turn. I would have liked a map display but looking at the images on Garmin's site I wonder if this is that useful as a tiny map view and limited direction information is probably a waste of time. In that case a "breadcrumb" trace might be more use to me.
I am getting lost in all the information on these things, most of which seem dedicated to a use and a set of features that don't interest me at all.
I should add that anything requiring smartphones and apps to make it work is likely to get chucked out through an open window very quickly!
Can anyone point me in the direction of a or some gps units that do navigation without excess crap, please?
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I would have liked a map display but looking at the images on Garmin's site I wonder if this is that useful as a tiny map view and limited direction information is probably a waste of time.
It's not a waste of time. However it probably does fall far short of the expectations of anyone who is used to a car satnav, or using maps on a smartphone.
My recommendation would be a Garmin Etrex 20 or whatever the modern variant number of that is (22x). Note however that it doesn't come with a handlebar mount or a lanyard. The mount is readily sourced but is usually described as a 'Oregon' mount.
It is primarily a basic walkers' GPS but if you look for a cycling-specific GPS you'll get all that fitness stuff you say you don't want, and/or that phone stuff you don't want.
My review of a similar model dating from 2012 Etrex 30 review (http://www.aukweb.net/gps/e30-review.pdf)
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I have a wahoo elemnt bolt, it shows a breadcrumb trail on the screen, and you can just follow that. It does support turn by turn, if the file has that info in there. Really easy to use, nice clear display.
On a couple of audaxes now I've picked up navigationally challenged back markers, and guided them round. Often the only working nav devices in the pelaton I've picked up has been the wahoo on my handlebars, and the spare wahoo in my saddle bag.
J
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I'd second FF's recommendation of an Etrex 20, or a 30 if you reckon it's worth paying a bit extra to get altimeter and (I think) temperature. But then I chose that model (20) specifically because I wanted a map. If you don't want a map, then it might be worth getting a Wahoo or something. But I do find the map useful for, well, being a map; not so much for planning but for impromptu diversions and seeing instantly how to get back on route if you've deviated either by accident or for food/tube/whatever. The Etrex 20 is about £120 in the UK.
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I'd second FF's recommendation of an Etrex 20, or a 30 if you reckon it's worth paying a bit extra to get altimeter and (I think) temperature. But then I chose that model (20) specifically because I wanted a map. If you don't want a map, then it might be worth getting a Wahoo or something. But I do find the map useful for, well, being a map; not so much for planning but for impromptu diversions and seeing instantly how to get back on route if you've deviated either by accident or for food/tube/whatever. The Etrex 20 is about £120 in the UK.
Main dowside I find with the etrex line is they take aa batteries, which is a extra faff level to charge, where as the wahoo etc... you just plug into a usb port, and it charges, no need to manage extra sets of batteries or chargers.
J
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HK loves her Wahoo but it is used in lockstep with a smartphone. The OP doesn't want to do that.
I use an Etrex 30x and a laptop to put tracks on the Etrex that I just follow as a coloured line on a scrolling map. That is simple and reliable enough for me to cope with. Eneloop Pro batteries last for 400km without a recharge and I can get replacement batteries in petrol stations or supermarkets, if required.
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I'd second FF's recommendation of an Etrex 20, or a 30 if you reckon it's worth paying a bit extra to get altimeter and (I think) temperature. But then I chose that model (20) specifically because I wanted a map. If you don't want a map, then it might be worth getting a Wahoo or something. But I do find the map useful for, well, being a map; not so much for planning but for impromptu diversions and seeing instantly how to get back on route if you've deviated either by accident or for food/tube/whatever. The Etrex 20 is about £120 in the UK.
Main dowside I find with the etrex line is they take aa batteries, which is a extra faff level to charge, where as the wahoo etc... you just plug into a usb port, and it charges, no need to manage extra sets of batteries or chargers.
J
I use an Etrex 30. Rechargeable batteries last at least 2 full days (6-8 hours) of walking or cycling with the backlight timer set at around 1 minute. Obviously depends on battery age and quality but I don't find much faff. I have run it with an external power pack plugged in to prove you can more than actually using it in that way. When touring it's usually plugged into the USB output of the Luxos U light fitted to the touring bike. The only downside with this option is that if you stop at a junction for more than 30 seconds it notices the external power has stopped and it shuts down.
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As usual, I would recommend a smartphone and locus maps. I've just replaced my 3 year old Honor Note 8 with a Xiaomi Mi Max 3 for £195.0. First ride on the bike today. 15% battery used after a 2 hour ride with the screen on for the whole ride. The note 8 was replaced because over the last week the battery performance has degraded significantly. The significance of the phones is that they have large 6.9 inch screens and it is the screen which draws over 90% of the power.
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I have a wahoo elemnt bolt, it shows a breadcrumb trail on the screen, and you can just follow that. It does support turn by turn, if the file has that info in there. Really easy to use, nice clear display.
On a couple of audaxes now I've picked up navigationally challenged back markers, and guided them round. Often the only working nav devices in the pelaton I've picked up has been the wahoo on my handlebars, and the spare wahoo in my saddle bag.
J
Does the Bolt need a paired smartphone ?
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Does the Bolt need a paired smartphone ?
Need, no. Certainly makes it easier to use tho. It can be used to load on routes, sync to strava etc... But you can turn your phone off while you ride.
J
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I'd second FF's recommendation of an Etrex 20, or a 30 if you reckon it's worth paying a bit extra to get altimeter and (I think) temperature. But then I chose that model (20) specifically because I wanted a map. If you don't want a map, then it might be worth getting a Wahoo or something. But I do find the map useful for, well, being a map; not so much for planning but for impromptu diversions and seeing instantly how to get back on route if you've deviated either by accident or for food/tube/whatever. The Etrex 20 is about £120 in the UK.
Main dowside I find with the etrex line is they take aa batteries, which is a extra faff level to charge, where as the wahoo etc... you just plug into a usb port, and it charges, no need to manage extra sets of batteries or chargers.
J
I use an Etrex 30. Rechargeable batteries last at least 2 full days (6-8 hours) of walking or cycling with the backlight timer set at around 1 minute. Obviously depends on battery age and quality but I don't find much faff. I have run it with an external power pack plugged in to prove you can more than actually using it in that way. When touring it's usually plugged into the USB output of the Luxos U light fitted to the touring bike. The only downside with this option is that if you stop at a junction for more than 30 seconds it notices the external power has stopped and it shuts down.
Horses for courses; depends on what track (forgive the pun) conditions you prefer. For me, replaceable batteries mean I can charge them up beforehand and they'll last around 12 hours, maybe more, and if they need replacing mid-ride I can carry spares with me or buy new ones at any 24hr garage. OTOH if you're in the habit of carrying a power pack with you, that probably makes usb charging easier. As long as that doesn't get depleted of course. On a 200 or 300km audax, you're unlikely to need to recharge anyway, so not high criteria for the OP.
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Get an eTrex and use frankly frankie's guides.
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Main dowside I find with the etrex line is they take aa batteries, which is a extra faff level to charge, where as the wahoo etc... you just plug into a usb port, and it charges, no need to manage extra sets of batteries or chargers.
J
My latest AA rechargeables, bought last year, will cover a 600km Audax. So up to 1000km I'm only carrying one extra pair of batteries. If I find the batteries run down quicker than expected I can just get some from a newsagents / supermarket / 24hr garage etc. No extra faff over charging a battery pack really. The eTrex has weaknesses but I'd say running on AAs isn't one of them.
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Agreed. It's one of my great regrets in changing from an HCx to an Edge Touring Plus. Carrying spare AAs if necessary is also easy. Some GPSs won't even recharge and run at the same time, and you have to rig up a way of doing that on the move if they do. Swapping AAs at a cafe stop is easy.
And the AAs tend to last longer than any built-in battery. And the shop can't look pityingly at you when, a few years on, you want to find a way to change the worn-out battery.
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AAs mean more faff at home when you charge the batteries at the end of the week or before the big event. Internal non-replaceable batteries mean more faff sorting out USB power during your long bike ride or tour. Both are eminently manageable, though I note the relative faff-factor of AAs has gone up for me as less of my other kit uses them. In general, I prefer to do my faffing when I'm not tired and stupid and/or being rained on, which is a win for AAs.
One note on breadcrumb trails: Ideally, you still want a map for the trail to be displayed over, rather than simply a line on a blank screen (as you'd get on a traditional hiking GPS like the eTrex 10). Otherwise roundabouts and similar complex junctions get reduced to educated guesswork.
The main difference between the eTrex 20 and the 30 is the barometric altimeter (for more accurate recording of elevation, particularly in mountainous areas where GPS performs poorly) and the ANT+ communications (for heartrate, temperature and some cadence sensors, directly exchanging data with similarly equipped Garmins.[1]).
[1] I've owned mine for years, and finally got to use this feature at the YACF camping weekend in September. Astoundingly, it Just Worked™.
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AAs mean more faff at home when you charge the batteries at the end of the week or before the big event.
I think that's a case of What You're Used ToTM. I don't find it any harder to put batteries in a battery charger at home than to plug a device into a wall wart. In fact, it's the very same action!
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AAs mean more faff at home when you charge the batteries at the end of the week or before the big event.
I think that's a case of What You're Used ToTM. I don't find it any harder to put batteries in a battery charger at home than to plug a device into a wall wart. In fact, it's the very same action!
Quite possibly true. I have a sufficiency of USB power sources in all sorts of places, but only the one decent AA charger.
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+1 for eTrex 20 or 30. A decent set of rechargeables and you can get around 24 hours out of it, though it's less if you keep the display backlight on.
I usually stick to my eTrex 30x but I tried MrsT's Oregon 600 recently. It's snazzier and has a bigger screen, but the GPX it gives you at the end of the ride doesn't include cardio data; I have to take the .FIT file it offers and put it through a converter before my log program will accept it. Boring.
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directly exchanging data with similarly equipped Garmins.[1]).
[1] I've owned mine for years, and finally got to use this feature at the YACF camping weekend in September. Astoundingly, it Just Worked™.
Ha, I remember doing this at PBP 2015 and being equally amazed that it worked, having used it just the once in the best part of 6 years I'd have to class it as a pretty niche feature (most people I know use Edges or Wahoos)
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i've used etrex for years (7-8..) and it does the simple job of "showing the route and being reliable" very well. what made me change to the edge series is that it lacked bluetooth for on the go route planning. one of the most recent uses of that feature was before the pbp when they changed the last leg due to roadworks. just uploaded the file to garmin app on the phone and sent it to the head unit.
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I have an Etrex Legend HCX, which is perfect for me. Coupled with the free maps from Garmin nl, it just does what I want, shows me the line on the map display of where to go. I don't want turn by turn or other cadence data or whatever.
Taking AA batteries is a big bonus for me.
I note there are a couple on eBay for around £60. Bargainous.
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Garmin Edge 530 is the best navigation unit on the market today and with a battery life of around 30 hours (if you cut down a bit on display brightness and switch off bluetooth) it's comparable to the bulky and frankly outdated Etrex.
It can be had for around 200 pounds with a bit of wise online shopping and looking out for deals.
I haven't paired mine to my phone and only use the cable to transfer data... no bugs or issues whatsoever. Problems typically come from Bluetooth
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I meant to add, my Legend is used for walking aswell, the free maps have 99% of the footpaths I've used, many in out of the way places. The map detail (contours, lakes and other stuff) has also helped me on the odd occasion I've got a bit lost.
It's also ten years old and has performed faultlessly in all conditions in that time.
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I meant to add, my Legend is used for walking aswell, the free maps have 99% of the footpaths I've used, many in out of the way places. The map detail (contours, lakes and other stuff) has also helped me on the odd occasion I've got a bit lost.
It's also ten years old and has performed faultlessly in all conditions in that time.
My old eTrex Venture CX (or summat) used the same casing as the Legend. The glue holding the rubber band round the edge came unstuck after ~4 years and appeared to have stretched, since it wouldn't snug down all the way round any more. I read at the time that this was common, though it was maybe just in warm countries so you might be OK.
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I meant to add, my Legend is used for walking aswell, the free maps have 99% of the footpaths I've used, many in out of the way places. The map detail (contours, lakes and other stuff) has also helped me on the odd occasion I've got a bit lost.
It's also ten years old and has performed faultlessly in all conditions in that time.
My old eTrex Venture CX (or summat) used the same casing as the Legend. The glue holding the rubber band round the edge came unstuck after ~4 years and appeared to have stretched, since it wouldn't snug down all the way round any more. I read at the time that this was common, though it was maybe just in warm countries so you might be OK.
My Vista HCx failed that way. My older Legend still has its rubber band intact, though it perhaps spent fewer hours in direct sunlight, as it got more use for walking.
The newer eTrex models have a different design that appears to avoid this problem. They have infuriating[1] software instead.
[1] All Garmin GPS receivers have infuriating software. The further back you go, the more your expectations align with a complicated 1990s tool for use by a skilled navigator in conjunction with a paper map and compass. The more modern units have built on that heritage by attempting to tweak the design towards something more familiar to those who came to GPS through TomTom-inspired car satnavs. Ultimately, this means removal of some useful features, addition of some less-useful ones, and a confusing user interface that is simultaneously both modern and dated. The hardware's pretty decent though.
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I like my Edge Touring, I keep it simple a basic GPX track and no turn by turn or beeps. The level of mapping I want is enough to take the right road at a junction, so I have it zoomed in more than I think most users do, if I want the bigger picture I'll look at the paper map. The only times it's let me down have been recording issues, lesson learnt, if it's important take a back up of some sort.
Also liked the Etrex 20 before it, no issues with that either, though I prefer the Touring's touch screen and USB charging.
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I had come down to a shortlist of Etrex 20 (or 30 but the 30 is well over my budget limits) and the Dakota 20, but I was unsure about whether they would do what I was looking for. It's nice to have that confirmed and also that the Etrex 30 doesn't add anything to the features that I want, only luxury stuff that I can do without (one tends to think more expensive = better but it's not always the case ).
USB charging is not a deal maker or breaker for me. At present I don't have a dynohub so charging on the move is not an option. I have batteries (accus really) in my front lights. Charging at home is the same, AA accus or USB accu. I find charging the phone a PITA because it doesn't last very long. OTH my camera and my USB rear lights last a very long time and so are a joy to have. Being able to find replacement batteries on the road is probably worth more to me than a USB charging option.
I did think of the Wahoo and Lezyne units, particularly after reading QG's enthusiastic comments elsewhere on here. In the end the conception and philosophy of the Wahoo does not appeal to me - the app and phone connections and all that means for me turn me off the Wahoo (just the impression that I get from their website, I don't buy into that philosophy). I abandoned the Lezyne after reading some comments on here and also their philosophy which is not very far removed from Wahoo.
So thank you everyone for all your comments and Etrex 20 appears to be what it will be. (and maybe going back to multifocal specs to be able to read the map on the beast)
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if you don't need maps, only a route to follow, a simple line on a blank screen is very easy to read - that's what i use. on rear occasions when i need to check the map i pull out the phone, which is superior for that task.
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+1 for eTrex 20 or 30. A decent set of rechargeables and you can get around 24 hours out of it, though it's less if you keep the display backlight on.
I usually stick to my eTrex 30x but I tried MrsT's Oregon 600 recently. It's snazzier and has a bigger screen, but the GPX it gives you at the end of the ride doesn't include cardio data; I have to take the .FIT file it offers and put it through a converter before my log program will accept it. Boring.
I use the Dakota, I find the better quality, slightly bigger screen noticebly easier to see than my previous Etrex. I've got an oregon as well but the touch screen really, really doesn't like rain. Its gets it confused between a fingerprint touch and a heavy raindrop!
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It's nice to have that confirmed and also that the Etrex 30 doesn't add anything to the features that I want, only luxury stuff that I can do without (one tends to think more expensive = better but it's not always the case ).
The 30 does have a proper compass that works while you're not moving, it seems like a small thing but with the 20 to have to ride up the road for the map to right itself and figure out which way to head. Bit of an irritant when on your own, tends to make you look foolish when leading a group :-[
I was a bit surprised by this considering it's intended for walking, though who'd walking without a proper compass as well.
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It's nice to have that confirmed and also that the Etrex 30 doesn't add anything to the features that I want, only luxury stuff that I can do without (one tends to think more expensive = better but it's not always the case ).
The 30 does have a proper compass that works while you're not moving, it seems like a small thing but with the 20 to have to ride up the road for the map to right itself and figure out which way to head. Bit of an irritant when on your own, tends to make you look foolish when leading a group :-[
I was a bit surprised by this considering it's intended for walking, though who'd walking without a proper compass as well.
I'd forgotten about that. To clarify, the magnetic compass allows the device to sense its orientation so it can draw the map (and/or north arrow) in the correct direction when you aren't moving (when moving, it can derive the orientation from the direction you're moving in).
I find that it's only marginally helpful when the device is mounted on a bicycle, as the presence of all that metal tends to throw it off, and the way bicycles move means that orientation derived from the last movement is usually correct when you come to a stop at a junction anyway. On the other hand, it's invaluable when you use it on foot, because (unless you hold it still and walk smoothly) a GPS receiver held in your hand while you walk moves in all sorts of random directions, especially when clambering over rough terrain, so movement-derived orientation is nearly always useless.
It's about making the display less confusing[1], and isn't a substitute for a traditional compass. I wouldn't use a GPS receiver to sight a bearing or anything like that, but it's generally good enough for "Which way am I facing?" when you emerge from a railway station.
[1] Before GPS receivers with magnetic compasses, I tended to set them to display the map "north up" when walking, as it was one less thing to have to think about.
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Quick! Stop! Don't whatever you do buy the Etrex 20!
There are many people on here who have owned and exclusively used one since the year 2000BC and who therefore think it is the perfect GPS. They really should have realised by now that they are out of date, but they have no backbone and so haven't even considered this. Everyone who buys a GPS now has a moral responsibility to buy something else just to spite these people.
Other things to note:
1) You can up/download to/from a Wahoo just like an Etrex if you want, through your file manager. Here is me doing this right now (https://i.imgur.com/pcixoZd.png).
2) On an everyday basis, swapping and charging AAs is definitely more of a faff than plugging in a USB port.
3) On a world level, finding replacement AAs is harder than finding a USB charge.
4) The E20 screen is shit.
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This forum is biased towards Etrex units, which are designed for hiking and not for cycling. In essence this is down to the fact that this is for the most an Audax forum and Etrex has an excellent battery life compared to old cycling GPS units.
I also appreciate that the Edge units are designed for training rather than long distance cycling, BUT the modern ones have a battery life which is compatible with long distance cycling (20 hours plus) and they are NOT as big as a dictionary... they don't rattle on the bars and they don't fall off, hence they don't need to be secured with rubber bands like the Etrex... small things but actually quite important, when you think about it.
Yes, many users have reported faults in the 520/820 series and previous, but 90% of the issues were down to bluetooth grief and bugs in software uptades. You don't have to pair the unit to your phone and you don't have to download updates.
Honestly, get a 21st century GPS unit, get the Edge 530 and use it for navigation, rather than to answer your phone or tell you when you are on a Strava segment and you will be happy as Larry, with no issues and you won't look ridiculous carrying a walkie talkie lookalike rattling on your stem
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Quick! Stop! Don't whatever you do buy the Etrex 20!
There are many people on here who have owned and exclusively used one since the year 2000BC and who therefore think it is the perfect GPS. They really should have realised by now that they are out of date, but they have no backbone and so haven't even considered this. Everyone who buys a GPS now has a moral responsibility to buy something else just to spite these people.
Other things to note:
1) You can up/download to/from a Wahoo just like an Etrex if you want, through your file manager. Here is me doing this right now (https://i.imgur.com/pcixoZd.png).
2) On an everyday basis, swapping and charging AAs is definitely more of a faff than plugging in a USB port.
3) On a world level, finding replacement AAs is harder than finding a USB charge.
4) The E20 screen is shit.
Can't disagree with this lot.
You can pick up a usb charger in most gas stations and supermarkets. The same is not true if you forget the aa/aaa battery charger. They also tend to be large and heavy and take up excessive space in your pack.
The Lithium Ion battery chemistry is also a lot more tolerant of 15 minutes on charge during a cafe stop to give it a boost. Doesn't everyone carry a usb power bank anyway now to charge their phone?
And as S2L says, devices like the wahoo/edge units fit to the handlebar mounts very well.
I upgraded from a etrex10 to a wahoo elemnt bolt, and it has been a revelation. I still don't understand why everyone loves the etrex line so much.
J
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This forum is biased towards Etrex units, which are designed for hiking and not for cycling. In essence this is down to the fact that this is for the most an Audax forum and Etrex has an excellent battery life compared to old cycling GPS units.
I'd agree with that. Since getting into racing, the eTrex's approach of always recording - ideal for audax or touring, where your priority is not losing data - has become clunky: You can't simply press the button as you cross the start/finish line like you can with an Edge. I believe the Edge is also capable of displaying how many laps you've done. I've been managing with my eTrex, but it means post-processing the GPX files.
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You can pick up a usb charger in most gas stations and supermarkets. The same is not true if you forget the aa/aaa battery charger. They also tend to be large and heavy and take up excessive space in your pack.
The Lithium Ion battery chemistry is also a lot more tolerant of 15 minutes on charge during a cafe stop to give it a boost. Doesn't everyone carry a usb power bank anyway now to charge their phone?
It's whatever works for people, a couple of AAs on a longer ride don't weigh anything meaningful. No, I don't carry a USB charger for the phone unless it's over 600km, I turn it on airplane mode and use it when necessary. Never carried an AA charger.
I upgraded from a etrex10 to a wahoo elemnt bolt, and it has been a revelation. I still don't understand why everyone loves the etrex line so much.
The 10 is a different animal that doesn't have mapping so it's not really a fair comparison. Why do I love the etrex line, I don't but if people ask I tend to say why I use one - it works. I've been on so many rides where people's edge devices have crashed or they can't get hold of their data after a ride. Having said that, I do like the look of the 530 and 830 that have been mentioned upthread. If they prove reliable them I could be up for making the switch.
And as S2L says, devices like the wahoo/edge units fit to the handlebar mounts very well.
J
Agree
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It's whatever works for people, a couple of AAs on a longer ride don't weigh anything meaningful. No, I don't carry a USB charger for the phone unless it's over 600km, I turn it on airplane mode and use it when necessary. Never carried an AA charger.
Do you not do multi day tours?
The 10 is a different animal that doesn't have mapping so it's not really a fair comparison. Why do I love the etrex line, I don't but if people ask I tend to say why I use one - it works. I've been on so many rides where people's edge devices have crashed or they can't get hold of their data after a ride. Having said that, I do like the look of the 530 and 830 that have been mentioned upthread. If they prove reliable them I could be up for making the switch.
The way I use the device, the comparison is fair. It's a line on a screen, with an arrow, I follow that line. My wahoo has some extra detail around that line, but it's the line I follow. I don't even do the turn by turn thing. I just follow the dot. This has come up on other threads on here about the confusion between route points and track points (WHY?! GPX WHY!?!).
I agree with the edge devices thing. I often pick up edge users that have failed to use them properly on audaxes, and navigate them back to the finish[1].
It's becoming a bit of a joke now. I'm seriously considering having some cards printed up with a link to buy a wahoo, and a affiliate link. The questions at the finish always turn to "what device are you using?". I carry 2 wahoo bolt's, one on the handlebars, one in my saddle bag. Why 2? Cos on an ultrarace I can't risk one being damaged etc... It does lead to the situation of a pelaton of 4, with 2 working nav devices, the one on my handlebars, and the one in my saddle bag.
And as S2L says, devices like the wahoo/edge units fit to the handlebar mounts very well.
J
Agree
If you use the element bolt, and you really want to be sure the device isn't going anywhere (Pavé anyone?), then you can even screw the device to the mount. I've not done this, and my bolt stayed put just fine when I did Paris-Roubaix, but it may be a consideration for some.
J
[1] Pro tip, shout the directions in Dutch or Deutsch, avoids the ambituity of "Right, we need to go left" etc...
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As an aside. I have an Edge 1030 as my main navigation tool. I am very happy with it.
I also have a 520 that currently lives on the turbo trainer. I have never used it for navigation, purely for recording rides. Would it work as a back up to be carried on longer rides ?
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You can pick up a usb charger in most gas stations and supermarkets. The same is not true if you forget the aa/aaa battery charger. They also tend to be large and heavy and take up excessive space in your pack.
Except that the overwhelming majority of the time, you only need a spare pair of AAs (or two) not the actual charger. I do have a small light AA charger for touring (which I also need for my auxiliary rear lights), I think I've carried it once this year, and didn't actually use it as I had to bail after the third day of the tour.
Anyway, the argument isn't really about the relative convenience of AA or USB power - I agree that USB is a win for day-to-day use (though I feel much more strongly about this with my head torch or phone than my GPS) - it's about the practicalities of waterproofing. If the GPS receiver can run on its own battery, you don't have to think about waterproofing. As soon as you need to recharge it, you either have to make a USB connection to it while mounted on the bike, or remember to plug it in it when you stop riding. That might be fine, depending on what you're doing and what other tech you're using, or it might be an unwanted faff.
And as S2L says, devices like the wahoo/edge units fit to the handlebar mounts very well.
There's nothing wrong with the Dakota-style mount. It holds it securely to the handlebars, and the back of the unit is comfortable in your hand, which matters if you also want to use it on foot. I agree that the smaller Edge units are a more handlebar-friendly size (this is most notable with tiller steering, the chunk of an eTrex is fine on an upright, an Oregon is a bit unwieldy), but that's another tradeoff with screen size and battery capacity.
I upgraded from a etrex10 to a wahoo elemnt bolt, and it has been a revelation. I still don't understand why everyone loves the etrex line so much.
We love the eTrex because the older Edges are barely usable for long distance cycling.
Garmin more generally, simply because they got there first. There are a lot of people with extensive experience of Garmins who can tell you how to make one do what you need. Everything else is a bit of an unknown factor.
I'm going to have to think long and hard about what to replace my eTrex 30 with when it dies. I'd like something that could handle racing better (which might just be a low-end second unit). I need sensible mounting options for recumbents as well as uprights. I despise touchscreens and am completely indifferent about colour. I'd like something that can go for at least 12 hours, preferably more like 18, without having to deal with batteries, but I'm not particularly fussed about what they are. I don't want to have to use websites, smartphone apps or wireless voodoo pixiedust to exchange data, though the options are nice to have, and I'd rather avoid binary file formats. Obviously it needs not to be locked into proprietary mapping, and I'd like to have turn-by-turn navigation and auto-routing available, even if I choose not to use them for audaxy rides; sometimes I just want it to get me to some destination while I worry about the lemming-infested one-way streets, road closures and people driving cars at me.
Certainly keeping an eye on Wahoo, they seem to be gaining ground as Garmin progressively loses the plot.
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Certainly keeping an eye on Wahoo, they seem to be gaining ground as Garmin progressively loses the plot.
I keep banging the same drum.
I think the 530 is a significant step up and it's a far superior unit compared to the Wahoo. The display of the Wahoo is medieval and the battery of the 530 is better.
Using it without bluetooth and at reduced brightness, with alarm bells and gingles off, but navigation on, it uses roughly 1% of the battery every 8-10 km and that at the current temperature around 3-7 degrees... in summer it can only get better. No touch screen.
Game changer
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That does look promising, and it sounds like they've solved battery life. The remote control (ostensibly a gimmick) appeals, as it would neatly solve the operating-a-derailleur-post-mounted-GPS problem.
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I purchased an Edge explore (the cheapest edge unit) last April mainly because it had all the features i needed. It was either that or the Wahoo.
For me the colour screen swung it but i did hesitate for weeks before i bought it. After 6 months its not let me down at all. Longest ride was
around 380km - battery life is a little down on what they claim but i have noticed that this really does depend a lot on how its used.
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If I were buying now I'd probably get a 530. The first generation Wahoos made some routing / mapping decisions that were slightly odd, or at least different for those of us who grew up on Garmin, and the second generation models have doubled down on those rather than solving them, while Garmin have really stepped up to address some of their problems around e.g. battery life, and from what I've heard so far have done a reasonable job of software testing too, unlike some of their previous offerings.
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Crikey! The more I read this thread, the happier I am with a half-inch OS map (that dates me) and an old Silva compass which cost me 7/6 (37.5 new pence) when I was in the Boy Scouts - circa 1968.
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Most dedicated audaxers seem to use a phone nowadays, in connection with a dynamo charger such as Igaro, rather than a specific GPS.
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It's nice to have that confirmed and also that the Etrex 30 doesn't add anything to the features that I want, only luxury stuff that I can do without (one tends to think more expensive = better but it's not always the case ).
The 30 does have a proper compass that works while you're not moving, it seems like a small thing but with the 20 to have to ride up the road for the map to right itself and figure out which way to head. Bit of an irritant when on your own, tends to make you look foolish when leading a group :-[
I was a bit surprised by this considering it's intended for walking, though who'd walking without a proper compass as well.
I'd forgotten about that. To clarify, the magnetic compass allows the device to sense its orientation so it can draw the map (and/or north arrow) in the correct direction when you aren't moving (when moving, it can derive the orientation from the direction you're moving in).
I find that it's only marginally helpful when the device is mounted on a bicycle, as the presence of all that metal tends to throw it off, and the way bicycles move means that orientation derived from the last movement is usually correct when you come to a stop at a junction anyway.
I find exactly the opposite: when I come to a stop, the direction arrow on Etrex 20 spins round through about 180 degrees.
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Crikey! The more I read this thread, the happier I am with a half-inch OS map (that dates me) and an old Silva compass which cost me 7/6 (37.5 new pence) when I was in the Boy Scouts - circa 1968.
GPS, and computerised navigation in general, is a complicated subject with a need for more than one highlighter pen. Just like navigating with a paper map (and compass/wristwatch/sextant/LORAN receiver), there are different strategies you can use, different skills required, and tools that are better suited to some strategies than others.
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Just follow the purple line, and you'll be fine... :thumbsup:
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Just follow the purple line, and you'll be fine... :thumbsup:
That's one strategy (and probably a good one if you're used to navigating with a paper map), but it still requires some skills. You've got to be able to know that the blue line is purple for a start. And get the data that defines the line into the GPS receiver so it can be displayed. Plus all your usual map-following skills like not riding past junctions because you're not paying attention[1] at the critical moment.
[1] This is of course one of the more useful things that a GPS receiver can help you with. Which means learning how to make it light up and beep at turns (for which there are various strategies)...
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The line is neither blue nor purple, it's pink! At least on my screen.
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The line is neither blue nor purple, it's pink! At least on my screen.
It was much easier when it was dotted grey...
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I did buy an Edge Touring some time ago, seduced by the blurb saying it was just like a car sat nav. It wasn't and I couldn't make head nor tail ot of it, so sold it on the Bay.
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Most dedicated audaxers seem to use a phone nowadays, in connection with a dynamo charger such as Igaro, rather than a specific GPS.
Blimey, what audaxes have you been on where this has been true? Most people are still taking the approach of buying an expensive piece of general purpose hardware that's very similar to a piece of general purpose hardware they already own, but can only ever run one app.
(Or is this a "no true dedicated audaxer" situation?)
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I did buy an Edge Touring some time ago, seduced by the blurb saying it was just like a car sat nav. It wasn't and I couldn't make head nor tail ot of it, so sold it on the Bay.
Car satnavs, following the TomTom model of usability, do about three things well (turn an address into coordinates, calculate a motor-vehicle-appropriate route to it, provide simple prompts for a driver who doesn't have time to study the screen), and some fail spectacularly at those. Which is fine in a car, because you're rarely interested in the details of the route, and most of the arbitrary routing decisions are of little consequence. You could use one on a bike, and it would probably be okay-ish if your cycling was urban utility riding from A to B without too much aversion to main roads.
As soon as you want to do something more complicated ("use *these* kind of roads", "follow *this* exact route", "don't keep leading me up bastard hills", "pace my training ride") your car satnav will be sorely lacking, and everything else will likely be as complicated as your requirements actually are, because the common assumptions the designer can make about what the user wants go straight out of the window.
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Most dedicated audaxers seem to use a phone nowadays, in connection with a dynamo charger such as Igaro, rather than a specific GPS.
Much as I'd love a large screen waterproof phone with long battery life for Audax. On a recumbent I'd just end up hitting my knees / thighs on the phone.
I use an eTrex 20, cos Audax. The screen is not the best, and is terrible if bright sunlight direct on it. Not so bad on the recumbent where the GPS is mounted in a vertical position and closer to the face.
I do still have an earlier Edge 500 which was hopeless for navigating anything over about 50 miles (the usual crash distance). But if not navigating then it's stable over distance and can be useful for other stuff such as HR or laps or the virtual partner feature if "training". Mostly the Edge 500 goes on my wife's bike if she comes out riding.
I did have an edge 205 back in around 2004 which was stable for navigating distance and handled tracks up to 13000 points. But the rubber seal / buttons went on it around 2008.
I do like the new feature of later GPS of being able to load new routes / tracks from a phone whilst touring. Like Kim there will be lots of pondering when the eTrex 20 bites the dust at some point in the future.
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I also have a 520 that currently lives on the turbo trainer. I have never used it for navigation, purely for recording rides. Would it work as a back up to be carried on longer rides ?
Not really. The map storage capacity is pants- I used one for a couple of years and if I ever went away from home (like, 60 miles from home) I'd have to reload the map so that it covered where I was going. This very quickly becomes a monumental PITA.
The 530 is much better. I have a 520 Plus which was a mistake- if I'd waited a month, there'd have been a 530 to buy. AIUI the 530 has a faster processor which is a definite failing on my 520+ which takes forever to do anything requiring thinks.
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Just follow the purple line, and you'll be fine... :thumbsup:
That's one strategy (and probably a good one if you're used to navigating with a paper map), but it still requires some skills. You've got to be able to know that the blue line is purple for a start. And get the data that defines the line into the GPS receiver so it can be displayed. Plus all your usual map-following skills like not riding past junctions because you're not paying attention[1] at the critical moment.
[1] This is of course one of the more useful things that a GPS receiver can help you with. Which means learning how to make it light up and beep at turns (for which there are various strategies)...
You really need something a bit more modern. All the features you mentioned are built in these days... it's more a case of opting out the default settings if you don't want an alert every time there is a turn or you miss one.
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Most dedicated audaxers seem to use a phone nowadays, in connection with a dynamo charger such as Igaro, rather than a specific GPS.
We know very different audaxers.
Most I know overhere use a garmin of some flavour, with a couple of wahoo users.
Of course, we all know from previous threads on here that most UK audaxers are still printing out the cryptic route sheets and pinning them to their arm...
Crikey! The more I read this thread, the happier I am with a half-inch OS map (that dates me) and an old Silva compass which cost me 7/6 (37.5 new pence) when I was in the Boy Scouts - circa 1968.
Has scalability issues. Carrying a 1/2" map for lejog, or a ride across Europe would be excessively bulky...
Blimey, what audaxes have you been on where this has been true? Most people are still taking the approach of buying an expensive piece of general purpose hardware that's very similar to a piece of general purpose hardware they already own, but can only ever run one app.
(Or is this a "no true dedicated audaxer" situation?)
Everything is just a general purpose computer being abused somehow...
I do still have an earlier Edge 500 which was hopeless for navigating anything over about 50 miles (the usual crash distance). But if not navigating then it's stable over distance and can be useful for other stuff such as HR or laps or the virtual partner feature if "training". Mostly the Edge 500 goes on my wife's bike if she comes out riding.
You're using the device to do the navigation? not just as a way of displaying a line on the screen to follow?
I do like the new feature of later GPS of being able to load new routes / tracks from a phone whilst touring. Like Kim there will be lots of pondering when the eTrex 20 bites the dust at some point in the future.
Yeah, being able to load new routes, and change config, on the go, using my phone is a wonderful feature of the wahoo. Much simpler than trying to use any limited interface that most gps units have.
I also like having proper buttons, something some garmin's don't do. I can operate the wahoo even with my big mittens on.
J
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I also like having proper buttons, something some garmin's don't do. I can operate the wahoo even with my big mittens on.
I dislike touchscreens generally, but this is a big part of why I don't want one on a cycling GPS. The eTrex joystick is hardly a triumph of ergonomics, but it doesn't become any more awkward when you operate it with cold wet fingers or chunky gloves on.
Rubber buttons with no tactile feedback are acceptable if the UI is sufficiently responsive. Membrane switches can get to fuck.
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Raindrops activating the touchscreen of some device were mentioned upthread. I don't know if it relates to the same model, but I've heard others complain about rain-activated GPS touchscreens. (I find my phone touchscreen has the opposite but related problem when its surface is wet – it ceases to respond to my finger.)
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http://www.lecycle.fr/article/19878-essai-du-compteur-wahoo-elemnt-bolt-un-eclair-de-simplicite
This is what turns me off a Wahoo (and any other device using a similar design philosophy) Sorry it's in french! I know this is journalese but the information probably comes straight from Wahoo.
On the subject of AAs against USB. For me the GPS is not an everyday device. It might see 3 or 4 outings a year (the nature of audaxing in la "France profonde" is that the 200s are grouped into the first 6 Months of the season so without doing ridiculous car mileages it is unlikely that I would do more than 2. Other than that a bit of route tracing and that's your lot. Anything more would be playing with a toy or gadget, not mission critical. I could do that on a set of rechargeables recharged for each occasion or just put new batteries in it. The thing with USB is that you have to know and have confidence in the device's charge indicator if you are only using it occasionally. My camera is a case in point. It's pretty good but sometimes I get caught out; it's not mission critical though.
I of course don't mind missing the occasional turni on non critical rides. Sometimes that produces some of my most enjoyable rides, discovering or rediscovering things that I hadn't noticed before.
Mounts are not that critical for me; I don't want more stuff on my bars. It will probably go in the map pocket of a barbag or in a phone bag mounted on the top tube (my counter is normally mounted on the top tube.
I do have budget limits. The Wahoo and most of the Edges are outside it (although the Edge Explore isn't; I might need to look again at that one.) the thing with the Etrex20 is that, obsolete technology or not, it appears to do what I want.
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the thing with the Etrex20 is that, obsolete technology or not, it appears to do what I want.
I still have one and it works very well. Not so great in urban areas though... I've taken the wrong exit at roundabouts many a times
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the thing with the Etrex20 is that, obsolete technology or not, it appears to do what I want.
I still have one and it works very well. Not so great in urban areas though... I've taken the wrong exit at roundabouts many a times
Is that a mapping problem or a limitation in the actual technology, hard or soft? My daughter (whose job is with computerised mapping and gps applications) always says that the problem with gps devices is often that the cartography is out of date or simply inaccurate (she works to 5m I think so it needs to be right).
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I reckon it's a bit of both, but I think there's a UI issue there too: There is no one zoom setting that gives you all the detail you need for complicated junctions while showing you enough of the bigger picture to prepare you for what's coming next (which may in itself clarify what you're supposed to be doing at the junction). Autozoom helps, but sometimes hinders. On a car sat-nav it would usually solve this through a split-screen display.
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the thing with the Etrex20 is that, obsolete technology or not, it appears to do what I want.
I still have one and it works very well. Not so great in urban areas though... I've taken the wrong exit at roundabouts many a times
Is that a mapping problem or a limitation in the actual technology, hard or soft? My daughter (whose job is with computerised mapping and gps applications) always says that the problem with gps devices is often that the cartography is out of date or simply inaccurate (she works to 5m I think so it needs to be right).
The 200 doesn't have maps... it's a line that follows some GPS coordinates. You just follow the line... As you get to a complicated junction, it's often hard to work out which road the line is taking.
That said, it's all you need for rural routes
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The eTrex 20 is fine. I bought Garmin's City Navigator Europe maps fr ~50€ and they were adequate for everything Audax I wanted to do, including navigating across Nancy on a 600 in 2011 where the route sheet was just a list of places to get stamps. OK, I had plotted a wee purple line in advance but some roads turned out to be voies rapides and others were wrong-way streets. I had no trouble deviating quite a way off-route and navigating back to it.
Of course the eTrex 20 doesn't just show you the route you want to take, it also records where you've been, which can be nice to look back on later.
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When your background is classic map navigation I'd suggest starting out with an etrex 20 or 30 since the learning curve will be less steep. You can basically use it in the 'follow line on the map' mode. You can decide yoruself if north has to be on top or your direction, depending on how you usually read your paper maps.
Topic not touched yet, the open fiets map is excellent for MZjo's area.
Knowing the terrain there I'd suggest the 30 since you will have extra data available showing you how long the climb is ahead so you can pace your ride.
I'd advise to carry the GPS also on several local rides so you get used to it on known terrain before you use it where you really need it.
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the thing with the Etrex20 is that, obsolete technology or not, it appears to do what I want.
I still have one and it works very well. Not so great in urban areas though... I've taken the wrong exit at roundabouts many a times
Is that a mapping problem or a limitation in the actual technology, hard or soft? My daughter (whose job is with computerised mapping and gps applications) always says that the problem with gps devices is often that the cartography is out of date or simply inaccurate (she works to 5m I think so it needs to be right).
The 200 doesn't have maps... it's a line that follows some GPS coordinates. You just follow the line... As you get to a complicated junction, it's often hard to work out which road the line is taking.
That said, it's all you need for rural routes
This is where you've caused confusion. The eTrex 20 is not the 200. The eTrex 20 can show both Garmin and custom maps. So you meant the 200 when you say you went wrong. Mind the most inattentive rider can ignore even the best navigational info and go wrong.
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http://www.lecycle.fr/article/19878-essai-du-compteur-wahoo-elemnt-bolt-un-eclair-de-simplicite
This is what turns me off a Wahoo (and any other device using a similar design philosophy) Sorry it's in french! I know this is journalese but the information probably comes straight from Wahoo.
That's markettingease aimed at a specific market segment, the iphone+carbon crowd. Assuming that google comedy conversion isn't too far off the mark.
Yes you can use the device that way. But you don't have to. It's a shame there seems to be nothing out there for people who don't have a smart phone surgically attached to them.
On the subject of AAs against USB. For me the GPS is not an everyday device. It might see 3 or 4 outings a year (the nature of audaxing in la "France profonde" is that the 200s are grouped into the first 6 Months of the season so without doing ridiculous car mileages it is unlikely that I would do more than 2. Other than that a bit of route tracing and that's your lot. Anything more would be playing with a toy or gadget, not mission critical. I could do that on a set of rechargeables recharged for each occasion or just put new batteries in it. The thing with USB is that you have to know and have confidence in the device's charge indicator if you are only using it occasionally. My camera is a case in point. It's pretty good but sometimes I get caught out; it's not mission critical though.
Ah, round these part the 200's are grouped into the first 12 months of the year...
I must admit I have now gone and put a wahoo mount on my Brompton, and use my bolt even for city riding, mostly it gives me a basic map display, and speed. I didn't buy the device with that in mind, it's a nice bonus tho.
I used to be of the mind the AA/AAA battery is a good idea, you can get them anywhere, you can carry spare sets etc... But the reality I find is that the hope vision 1 light on my Brompton, that takes 4 AA rechargables, lasts long enough between charges for me to have lost the charger. Where as I'm setup for recharging usb stuff, there's a multi port wallwort by the the bed with 3 cables pluged in (µUSB + USB-C), there's another one next to the sofa, with 3 cables hanging out. This is the norm for many people my age and younger. It's easier for me to find a usb socket to charge from in my flat than a mains socket, and even harder if you are picky which type of mains socket (some are BS 1363, some are schuko).
Each to their own.
I of course don't mind missing the occasional turni on non critical rides. Sometimes that produces some of my most enjoyable rides, discovering or rediscovering things that I hadn't noticed before.
Mounts are not that critical for me; I don't want more stuff on my bars. It will probably go in the map pocket of a barbag or in a phone bag mounted on the top tube (my counter is normally mounted on the top tube.
I do have budget limits. The Wahoo and most of the Edges are outside it (although the Edge Explore isn't; I might need to look again at that one.) the thing with the Etrex20 is that, obsolete technology or not, it appears to do what I want.
The mount can be critical to the usability of the device. Can you read the screen through the map pocket plastic, in sunlight? or in the rain? or in rain and sunlight?
Some of the riders I've picked up on audaxes have been thinking they could put their mobile in case, or bar bag, or top tube bag, and read the screen through that for nav. Only to find it hasn't worked.
I'd advise to carry the GPS also on several local rides so you get used to it on known terrain before you use it where you really need it.
This, very much this.
You may even find in doing so that the device becomes more indispensable than you anticipated.
Good luck, and have fun!
J
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Think I have four pairs of AAs for use in the eTrex 20. They all have different coloured dots on them, so I always use the same pair together. I have two small boxes for putting uncharged batteries and charged ones. I only use the GPS for my longer rides or Audax. Locally as I know the roads I don't take the GPS. If I used the GPS every day I might prefer USB charging, but as it is I always have a set of AAs to go, and don't need to charge all that often. A charged set will see me through three 200km audaxes, though I'll usually take a spare set for the last in a series of three.
As for USB leads everywhere I don't think that's too much of an age thing. I'd say a majority of households have USB charging leads permanently plugged in somewhere in their house / flats. Certainly the case here. The AA charger lives in a charging and adapter drawer. For instance my cameras still need you to remove the batteries to charge, and all the batteries / charges are different.
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Think I have four pairs of AAs for use in the eTrex 20. They all have different coloured dots on them, so I always use the same pair together. I have two small boxes for putting uncharged batteries and charged ones. I only use the GPS for my longer rides or Audax. Locally as I know the roads I don't take the GPS. If I used the GPS every day I might prefer USB charging, but as it is I always have a set of AAs to go, and don't need to charge all that often. A charged set will see me through three 200km audaxes, though I'll usually take a spare set for the last in a series of three.
As for USB leads everywhere I don't think that's too much of an age thing. I'd say a majority of households have USB charging leads permanently plugged in somewhere in their house / flats. Certainly the case here. The AA charger lives in a charging and adapter drawer. For instance my cameras still need you to remove the batteries to charge, and all the batteries / charges are different.
The big battery charger lives on top of the fridge with an ice-cream box next to it for the batteries. USB chargers are everywhere but the effect of living with a big adolescent daughter is that the chances of finding a working cable not being used are virtually nul. And my wife regularly unplugs the bedroom clock connecting her tablet to the charger. When there isn't a battery ready for the telecommand for the tele, mediasat, dvd player etc the shit really hits the fan! (Not to mention a wireless mouse that risks being fed to the cat!)