Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => Freewheeling => Folders => Topic started by: BillN on 20 September, 2020, 02:13:36 pm
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Sorry, it's a long ramble
I got an email from Brompton a few days ago regarding the Version 3 CHPT3 launch, priced at £2,295, with a little square asking me to “SHOP” – now that is a real joke as you cannot buy them, (or many other Brompton’s for that matter), as there are none for sale to “mere mortals”. Also try getting even some basic spares and bits from a dealer and many are “out of stock”. OK CV-19 has slowed things down, but not that much, China are still churning stuff out in volume.
So what has happened to Brompton? – Evans, (owned by Sports direct), and Halfords are two of their dealers, talk to any small independent Bike shop who is a Brompton dealer and you will find that he is not happy. Talk to the (young) guys in Evans and Halfords and many have never seen a Brompton…. maybe an exaggeration, but hopefully you know what I mean……….. It does not look to me as thought Brompton are supporting their smaller dealers …..they have an “online” business, which is of course “down” at the moment, but they have started selling direct to the public from their web site, (but the Bike has to be collected from and “prepared” by a dealer – “for safety reasons” – that's sometimes a laugh – ask a few who have bought from Evans and Halfords)
Again, what has happened to Brompton, OK supply falls way short of demand and many, many Bikes are going to the Far East.
But are Brompton’s now selling “boxes” not Bikes – they are a private company but have a couple of corporate boys on their Board, (they have been there for a while), are they looking to go the way of many private companies and will we see a public floatation or take over and sale to a public company in the not too distant future – shareholders and directors will be eyeing this up with some glee – but I may be completely wrong.
Don’t get me wrong, I love my Bromptons – over the years brakes, wheels, tyres, hubs, etc., have all got better – but they have not really come that far in the last 30 years since the Mk 2’s of the late 80’s early 90’s – I would have thought that they could have been a bit more innovative as basically they just produce 2 bikes – a normal Bike with the choice of handlebars and gears and a eBrompton – their "innovation" today seems to be down to loads of Special Edition paint jobs.
What do you think – will anything more creative come out of Brompton in the future or are they happy to sit back on their laurels.
This is not a criticism of the Brompton Bikes, it is just my reflection of how I feel about Brompton today, I bought an eBrompton a few weeks ago through their on-line portal, (I'm very pleased with the bike), and after ringing around quite a few dealers I have managed to "order" a normal Brompton, but with a limited choice, (certainly no Superlight bikes available to order!), which I hope to get ....... but if you can order many dealers are saying "for early 2021" delivery.
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I would prefer it if they focused on their core business rather than the marketing gimmicks like the Chpt3 tie-in but I fear such things are the harsh reality of the modern world and won’t be going away in a hurry.
I really want a new Brompton but couldn’t afford one right now anyway, even if there were any available.
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Brompton doesn't really need the support of dealers (big or small) at the moment. The bikes sell themselves.
Also try getting even some basic spares and bits from a dealer and many are “out of stock”. OK CV-19 has slowed things down, but not that much, China are still churning stuff out in volume.
The capital and lead time on orders for new bits from China is still there. The current surge in demand is still relatively new and it's unpredictable how long it will last, or whether a big order for new bits would arrive after winter killed it off.
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Brompton is actively sabotaging their dealers’ role in retailing bikes. The factory reserves a significant proportion of production slots, so ordering directly from Brompton has a much shorter delivery time than through a dealer. The price is the same, so why use a dealer?
Brompton has significantly restricted the dealer supply of major frame components and some other items. That will just encourage the aftermarket to produce clones.
I have equipped myself with appropriate tools to avoid dealing with Brompton for the foreseeable future on anything sizeable. The Brompton aftermarket has got big enough to supply even slow-wearing items like swingarm pivots, hinge clamps and hinge pins.
I was a full-on Brompton fanboy when it was engineering-centred over a decade ago but now reject the whole marketing-based approach of endless special edition bikes, clothing and luggage variations. The lack of real engineering improvement is pitiful. The last major one was the BWR hub, plucked from the ashes of the Sturmey collapse. The last minor ones were the brake and gear levers.
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The whole CV-19 bike boom does seem to have affected their availability more than might have been expected, especially as their new factory was built with a fair bit of excess capacity. As LWaB notes, they do seem to have been pissing off their dealer networks, not only through the direct sales, but also because they've not been able to give them bikes, whilst shipping a large chunk of production to the far east (I've seen Indonesia mentioned in particular - not sure if this is because Brompton can charge higher prices there?). I'd not be entirely unsympathetic to the 'they're specialist bikes that require specialist servicing' argument, were it not for the fact that they let Halfords sell the ruddy things... I also think stuff like stopping selling the bag frames separately (so affecting e.g. Carradice bags) is a bit rubbish.
The bikes themselves are to an extent fashion items, trading on the 'made in London' thing, and so command a premium for that. OTOH as multi-modal commuter bikes they're unsurpassed, and it's hard to see how they could make major improvements without breaking backwards-compatibility of parts etc. IMO less plasticy shifters and better hinge clamps (like the Speedial ones) would be useful improvements. At one point there was a rumour that they were going to be producing a disc-braked version with bigger clearances, but that seems to have gone quiet - not sure if that's Covid-related, or whether it was indeed just rumour. I'd like to see what a 20" Brompton would look like, and how much bigger the folded package would be, but I can see that might be a niche market.
Though they're not perfect by any means, they do seem to have hit a sweet spot in terms of the compromises; Dahons and Terns just don't seem to have gathered the cult-like followings that Brompton have. I have to say on a smiles per mile basis my Brompton probably comes out best of all of my bikes.
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If the original Dahon Curl had been properly engineered and continued to be developed, that would have been where I would have gone. The current Curl isn’t noticeably better than a Brompton and lacks integrated luggage (for no sensible reason).
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=15582.0 refers to the Curl of a decade ago.
http://warmplanetbikes.com/bikes/dahon/dahon-curl-i8/ is the current Curl.
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I think they're treating it as a cash cow. There are still glaring flaws in the design, but no pressure to improve. C2W has been an enormous boost for them. The market is ripe for a Brompton-slayer with decent components and a lighter frame (hi-tensile steel, ffs) but their lawyers pounce on anything similar-looking. I'd like to see a firm with deep pockets really challenge them in a copyright court case (the patent on the fold is long expired).
I get roasted by a fanboy if I express this opinion on another forum, which is funny.
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They are falling into the same complacency that killed off the British motor industry fifty years ago.
Selling as many as they can make, so why improve/develop the product? Special paint jobs cost next to nothing.
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The CHPT3 marketing puff is woeful, devoting more space to a few squiggly graphics than to the weight (it's basically an S6E-X) or any supposed technical advantages. It reminds me of car manufacturers prolonging the life of an old model with special editions.
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Dahon fell into multiple traps. For over a decade, far too many changes, year after year, with far too little attention paid to supporting previous models, result being many spare parts were no longer available when needed. Then, after Josh Hon left to form Tern…dear lord. Boring model range, a few old favourites ruined by rubbish colour schemes and lousy component selection, plus utterly pointless new frame designs. I love my Speed Pro TT (it doesn't get ridden much, haven't got it out of the garage in ages, though when I ride it again, it will make me smile…), but if and when I replace it, it'll be a Tern, or AN Other brand.
Unfortunately, Brompton have just created a whole load of traps of their own. Relying on third parties to fix some of the flaws in your product is not a good model, but they've been getting away with it, so why stop…No-one has done the complete package as well as Brompton. But Brompton should be making a better complete package, or trying to. Unfortunately, those who've really innovated in the folding market have remained fringe players, or gone out of business altogether. Brompton has learnt nothing from the competition, or just ignored those lessons, in favour of gimmicks. So, commuters and other devotees of folders, pay a fortune for this thing that weighs a ton (it's almost like they're trying to punish their customers, unless they're bodybuilders). But hey, special edition colour scheme and tan tyres!
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I agree a slightly lighter bike would be nice, but I wonder if the hi-ten steel and the weight is a conscious trade-off against durability? A folder on public transport is likely to get knocked about a fair bit; thinner-gauge tubing would be lighter but more prone to dents.
I'm slightly suspicious of the British car industry analogy; have 3-speed utility bikes really improved in any meaningful sense since 1980? As a fundamentally mature design, you're then left with twiddling at the edges (brake levers, new bars, etc), and with special paint schemes to drive the marketing.
(Edit: I don't meant to sound like a Brompton apologist! I'm not a fan of their recent direction of travel wrt spare parts supply etc., but I think it's understandable from a commercial POV).
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I would seriously consider buying a Hummingbird over a Brompton if I could afford one. They are eye-wateringly expensive though.
Tbh, I suspect part of the reason the Hummingbird is so expensive is because it is built in Britain by F1 engineers. If they maybe built it to a slightly lower spec and/or shipped out production to the Far East, plus made a few design tweaks to make it more suitable for commuters (ie mudguards), it could be a genuine competitor to the Brompton.
Even with the weight of the motor, the electrically assisted version of the Hummingbird is still lighter than the Superlight Brompton and it goes like shit off a shovel from a standing start, so ideal for stop-start journeys with lots of traffic lights.
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I suspect that Brompton’s continued use of thick-walled hi-ten steel is for ease of manufacturing. Thinner, stronger tubes are less forgiving of overheating and cold-forming. Butted Cro-Mo tubing works well for fabrication but costs quite a bit more than exhaust pipe (ERW).
Thinner walled tubes would be even more flexible than the current tubing and should be compensated for by a small diameter increase. That would involve a major redesign because of the close clearances when folded and the hinges and other aspects.
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I would think most of the flexibility comes from the joints or the compromised frame geometry (it's not ideal for resisting torsion between the bars and BB). Anyway, steel diamond frames, with very few exceptions, kept the same OD when butted tubing was introduced. I know a lot of newer steel tubesets are a bit oversized, but the 1 1/8" headset is as much to blame for that as anything else.
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The Ti frame copies are meant to be horrendously noodly, which would suggest that it's at least partly down to tube stiffness.
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Which isn’t too surprising. Ti is about half the stiffness of steel (and half the density), so needs a noticeable diameter increase and/or a lot more wall thickness for the same sectional stiffness. Al is about 1/3 of steel, so more so.
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I would seriously consider buying a Hummingbird over a Brompton if I could afford one. They are eye-wateringly expensive though.
Tbh, I suspect part of the reason the Hummingbird is so expensive is because it is built in Britain by F1 engineers. If they maybe built it to a slightly lower spec and/or shipped out production to the Far East, plus made a few design tweaks to make it more suitable for commuters (ie mudguards), it could be a genuine competitor to the Brompton.
Even with the weight of the motor, the electrically assisted version of the Hummingbird is still lighter than the Superlight Brompton and it goes like shit off a shovel from a standing start, so ideal for stop-start journeys with lots of traffic lights.
Wow, they are expensive! I didn't hang back on bells and whistles with my Airnimal. only stopping short of the shiny German IGH, but even so, custom paint job, dyno hub and lights, travel case, still came in less than the basic 4-speed Hummingbird.
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The electric Hummingbird is more expensive still, but the weight savings are huge. It’s less than half the weight of my Vektron for example (although the latter has a rack and guards etc.).
https://www.hummingbirdbike.com/shop-1/electric-bike
That motor with built in battery is pretty tidy - regenerative braking too:
(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5af40a0b71069901dd121a67/1528817307377-DVNJD1LV8I3XNSZRMQ3L/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kDwnnFb8hfviUAk3vcAE2hd7gQa3H78H3Y0txjaiv_0fDoOvxcdMmMKkDsyUqMSsMWxHk725yiiHCCLfrh8O1z5QPOohDIaIeljMHgDF5CVlOqpeNLcJ80NK65_fV7S1UTn1PzW5F6n_C_X9Hq70p1C8yZuuQLJM3_JZcoy-CENXKx6dh-pOTrAj9FzCraHjaw/esploso-1.jpg?format=600w)
Sorry. Back to the Brompton. At the end of the day, folded size and carrying convenience are everything with a folder, and the Brompton still can’t be beaten in those respects (unless the budget allows, of course).
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Fascinating comments. Agree with all. Excuse my ignorance,but why doesnt Brompton go with alloy frame or wotever? Inherent structural weakness? But since when have I seen reported some other frames...collapse? Anyways,would it save on costs? Sometimes I defer to those better educated,sometimes not
I see a great demand in Indonesia for Brompton bikes. I read the peoples are hoovering them up and selling them at double costs. The Asian market appears to be one steroids for the bikes: boys and girls. Once purchased the machines are upengineered with better add ons or improvements by mostly men and clubs formed.
When there's money and demand afoot we can only expect capitalisation on the product. Maybe this product has zenithed. A few years of plateau then...downhill? Or maybe mass production,with reduced prices? Once the corporates come in the blood will be spilt on the factory floor: Made in London means...well,anything you want it to mean,because made means whatever your best legal team decides what it means.
I dont own a Brompton myself,but am addicted to watching all things about them.
I would be interested if they could come up with some 20 inch wheeled job that was economical and offered some reasonable commuting,touring,folding proper properties
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Made in the UK for the Mini means construct in Belgium, get it off the car transporter and stick the badge on the front before loading it onto another car transporter. #cynical
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Nah...body panels are pressed in Swindon and assembly is at the Cowley plant in Oxford. Not sure where the engines come from now. They were Brazilian in the first generation.
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Not all, as i understand it, though some as you say are Cowley
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Does Brompton have any competitors? Is there another bike that folds as small as a Brompton, and is cheaper and lighter, and as easily available in the UK?
The Hummingbird looks great and it's much lighter but then it costs three times as much. And folds bigger, although narrow.
Dahon Curl has the same fold as a Brompton but it's no lighter and not cheaper. And it's hard to find.
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The Hummingbird looks great and it's much lighter but then it costs three times as much. And folds bigger, although narrow.
Yes, it’s significantly narrower folded than a Brompton - this makes it much easier to carry (as does the fact that it’s so much lighter).
It also means it slips easily into the luggage space between seats on the train, which a Brompton doesn’t.
Can you tell I’m a fan?
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I would be interested if they could come up with some 20 inch wheeled job that was economical and offered some reasonable commuting,touring,folding proper properties
All things are possible, but not necessarily feasible.
Having spent ten years crashing over Edinburgh's roads on my Brompton I've wondered for a long time whether a bike with 20 inch wheels and a Brompton-style fold would work. Well, Juliane Neuss made one (http://www.bromptonauten.de/phorum3/read.php?1,34450,34450#msg-34450), involving lots of frame alterations, plus an electric one (https://faltenreich.de/Bromptosaurus.pdf) that looks like it was dragged backwards through a barbed wire fence and left in a ditch for a year. Kinetics recently prototyped a 20 inch Brompton too (https://twitter.com/KineticsGlasgow/status/1307301789746819074).
How about a 24 inch wheeled Brompton (https://web.archive.org/web/20170911175300/http://www.tillercycles.co.uk/index.html)?
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I just nearly put my '98 Brompton up for sale. Then after cleaning it I went for a spin and decided I just couldn't do it. It's in concours condition as I had another which I used most and sold a while back. Hopefully I will be finding it useful when the virus is less of an issue.
I wouldn't attempt to buy one though.
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Distant connections recall me to follow the Brompton dealership and fellows in Melbounre,Victoria. My wife and I follow their cycling down there. My understanding is that they have had no Bromptons to purchase for some 7 months. Most recently they were advertising some raffle where you could compete to get into a queue that waits to purchase a Brompton there! Meanwhile,they promote Brompton bags,tyres and wotnot. Cant recall if it was them,but some Brompton sellers were refusing to sell Bromptons to Indonesians who wanted to buy x6 at a time to resell them in Indonesia at a very marked up price.
Interesting.
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There are sellers in France (including here in Limoges!) who claim to have them in stock - not that I am going to go along to test the truth of the statement, I am not interested in buying one after having ridden my daughter's. But cheap Decathlon folders can't be had for love or money, not on line, not in the shops!
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I have similar thought about Brompton. First I bought a B75, and then bought and sold M3L, M6L, Raw Lacquer, and Black Lacquer. I think there's no significant difference between the models other than the paint job. In the end I kept the B75 and sold the others because it's cheaper and can do the job of every other higher-priced Brompton.
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Saw three Bromptons on the floor of what is now the Trek store in Bristol last w/e. IIRC one pink, one bare metal lacquer, one black,
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I have similar thought about Brompton. First I bought a B75, and then bought and sold M3L, M6L, Raw Lacquer, and Black Lacquer. I think there's no significant difference between the models other than the paint job. In the end I kept the B75 and sold the others because it's cheaper and can do the job of every other higher-priced Brompton.
An S-type gives a much better riding experience if you like to go faster than pootle speeds. If you're of average male height, there is a sensible drop to the bars.
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I have similar thought about Brompton. First I bought a B75, and then bought and sold M3L, M6L, Raw Lacquer, and Black Lacquer. I think there's no significant difference between the models other than the paint job. In the end I kept the B75 and sold the others because it's cheaper and can do the job of every other higher-priced Brompton.
An S-type gives a much better riding experience if you like to go faster than pootle speeds. If you're of average male height, there is a sensible drop to the bars.
The S-type bar is half way between the tops and the drops of my road bike. Keep flexible and it's not too bad a position. Certainly better than the M for my style of riding.
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I have similar thought about Brompton. First I bought a B75, and then bought and sold M3L, M6L, Raw Lacquer, and Black Lacquer. I think there's no significant difference between the models other than the paint job. In the end I kept the B75 and sold the others because it's cheaper and can do the job of every other higher-priced Brompton.
An S-type gives a much better riding experience if you like to go faster than pootle speeds. If you're of average male height, there is a sensible drop to the bars.
I installed drop bar on my B75 but my lower back hurts. Now I'm thinking of converting it back to M-handlebar.
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Drop bar? How does it fold?
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I have similar thought about Brompton. First I bought a B75, and then bought and sold M3L, M6L, Raw Lacquer, and Black Lacquer. I think there's no significant difference between the models other than the paint job. In the end I kept the B75 and sold the others because it's cheaper and can do the job of every other higher-priced Brompton.
An S-type gives a much better riding experience if you like to go faster than pootle speeds. If you're of average male height, there is a sensible drop to the bars.
When I was going to buy my Brompton, this was the one thing I was completely unsure about. I'd ridden an M-type before, but not the others. LBS was obliging and let me test ride an M, S and for completeness P back to back for comparison. I concluded that the M handled like a Brompton, the S handled like a bike, and the P handlebars were stupid unless you had small hands and short enough legs to keep your knees out of the way.
I bought the S. And have since fitted a riser to bring the bars up by about 4cm, which makes it slightly easier on the wrists while preserving the handling.
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Drop bar? How does it fold?
It folds nicely: https://www.reddit.com/r/Brompton/comments/jb3rxu/drop_bar_brompton/
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Drop bar? How does it fold?
It folds nicely: https://www.reddit.com/r/Brompton/comments/jb3rxu/drop_bar_brompton/
Clever :thumbsup:
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Dang...I need to do that!
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I'm no fan of Bromptons, not liking the handling, but it seems to me that they have beome more price competitive in recent years when you look at how much Terns and Birdys have gone up in price. It's odd that the bike industry big boys have not tried to muscle in on the folding market.
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I'm no fan of Bromptons, not liking the handling, but it seems to me that they have beome more price competitive in recent years when you look at how much Terns and Birdys have gone up in price. It's odd that the bike industry big boys have not tried to muscle in on the folding market.
That's a well reasoned comment.
Tooling costs putting them off when they know that they can churn out stuff which they know will sell -as opposed to competing in folding stuff
?
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Birdys start at over £2000 for the original design but the current monocoque design.
Terns are not as compact but could be better. Not if you're tall though. Above 6'3" and despite tern claiming they're good to 6'5" tall they're not, that's from one of the biggest folding bike retailers and tern main stockists in the UK. I asked them and under their 30 day no quibble refund scheme they know they will get tern bikes back if the purchaser is tall. They only sell brompton bikes if your close to 6'3" or above. I'm in that taller bracket.
Airnimal you need to take the wheel off and it's got a larger fold size.
Bike Friday make good range of folders and their world traveller is a reasonable fold size and effectively custom built for the rider not making one size fit all. Costs £2500++. Great bikes though.
IIRC is the 3sixty bike out of Singapore I think that is a direct copy of Brompton fold. I think aluminium alloy frame but I might be mistaken in that. Cheaper than bromptons if you can get that 3sixty bike sent here of course.
Brompton comes up for sale their site every week now for a few months. Not many and they sell quickly. Mostly electric and superlights but there's been plenty of m6r or M6L with battery or dynamo lighting. Mostly in black only but you get the odd reds too.
Near me there's one shop with a nice red in the window and more in stock apparently. A further away retailer, smaller shop with only one outlet, had one a few weeks back too. They've been told by their brompton rep they'd be able to place orders for only a few brompton bikes then nothing for some time. She was angry with the way brompton was dealing with small retailers even though they actually sold quite a few annually for years.
For my multi modal commute I have very little choice. I can just about afford the £1300 or so but not £2700 for a Birdy or £3600 or so for a hummingbird. BTW if you would rather buy a hummingbird for commuting then I wonder how much weight if you were able to add in guards, means to carry luggage, lighting options, etc. Bromptons come with most of those in one model or another so I suspect it's not completely a fair comparison. However even stripped down Brompton sounds be a lot heavier than the hummingbird but probably more durable for commuting use. Is the hummingbird even meant as a commuter?
I really don't want to buy a brompton for it's many flaws but I suspect my impending move will mean I need a solution which it seems brompton is unfortunately the only option left to me.
BTW you can't say the s bar is the perfect option for everyone because it depends on your height. There's a good graph I've seen on a YouTube channel for touring with folders that plots a line for each bar type in a graph with inseam in the X axis and height above or below the level of the seat. You need to check that out if you're thinking of buying a brompton. For my size the s bar would be between 10 and 15cm below the seat. The m bar is 5cm below, which would be my preference. H bar is over 5cm higher.
The whole bike sector is a mess right now for many reasons. Some EU based retailers and bike brands don't even ship here after brexit. Shops are all low in stock. I think you just have to buy the bike you can get that will do what n you want not your ideal bike. That means different specs and colours you might not actually like. Bromptons you have to get what you can not what you want.
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They should make a simpler lighter rear rack like the triangular-ish Q racks but extended to take a rear lamp unit...
(I was disappointed when Brompton updated the rear rack and yet left it largely unchanged...)
As the upthread link to a 406mm rim Brompton shows its fold as too big IMO, perhaps Brompton could just increase frame clearances to allow a 50-349 tyre, for less effect on folded size.... and then commission one or allow one to appear... .
A lower cost steel SA 3 speed humming bird, with mudguards, front luggage block (and optional simple rear rack, for pathlesspedaled rucsac as camping luggage?) hub dynamo, might be a useful alternative to the Brompton for some?
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Brompton do seem to be (very slowly) improving the quality of some components. The price is still going up out of all proportion to the improvements.
Still crazy in this age of Di2 etc, that the 6-speed has one type of shift that likes you to stop pedalling when changing gear, while the other type of shift needs you to pedal. You'd think they were rich enough now to commission Shimano to build a 115mm hub with more speeds. I sense they avoid Shimano, though, and Sunrace SA would build something that didn't quite work.
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Are they worried about Shimano dropping the hub from their range I wonder?
Can you not just ease off pedal pressure on Nig 3 speeds cf old nonNig AWs where you can? Plus I thought the derailleur was double sprung so that you could change gear and it would happen when you started pedalling?
I don't see why they can't fit V brakes albeit with shorter pads and the front with reversed arms, but if not why not dual pivots with symetrical pivots on each arm for even brake wear or just the TT brakes that look like a cross between a V brake (noodle) and a side pull..?
NB I don't like the new front brakes modern allen key fitting: a nut and bolt is better for attaching useful stuff behind fork plus is backwards compatible...
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It's weird that some parts of the design are so brilliant (the hinges and the mudguards) but others are Heath Robinson (the derailleur spring arrangement, not exactly easy-clean) while some components are just horrible. I think they may still be using plastic BBs that get stuck.
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Just found out that the extended seat post is now the default (don't call it the "standard", as the shortest one has that name). About time - the standard post is too short for most UK men, and I bet many bought a new bike and had to immediately order another post! I am very average height and I have the extended post pulled up to the stop, with the Pentaclip about halfway up the narrow section (lower for a Brooks, which has more overall height).
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Just found out that the extended seat post is now the default (don't call it the "standard", as the shortest one has that name). About time - the standard post is too short for most UK men
It doesn’t fold as small with the extended post, so this is a downgrade.
But quite right that everything needs to be designed around median adult males.
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But quite right that everything needs to be designed around median adult males.
I suspect the original bike was designed around the median Andrew Ritchie.
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Finally, a bike designed for the ladies. Though they were out of pink ones when I bought mine. They should make them all pink.
I mostly ride it all the time I ride a bike now. Parts of it feel a bit Halfords and the brakes put the under in underachievers (more so for those of us who live up a 25% hill). I always wondered about the weird gears and why they didn't just put all six in one hub, I mean, it's not exactly a cheap bike, and it's the got the same hub as Raleigh Grifter from 1982.
They're also bloody heavy (also about the same as a Raleigh Grifter) for a bike main selling point is of which is portability. They do fold up small though and there seem to have been a few improvements since I bought mine. They might have even fixed the perpetually rattlesome rear mudguard.