Training for power ?

[border-rider]

I used to be a pretty useful 100m and 200m sprinter, but year and years of audax have trained me to turn out long, steady distance instead.   I used to have a decent reserve of power too, but the last two years' laziness have eroded that and I find I'm struggling - really struggling - to be able to get my HR up to the levels where I'm putting out serious power

What's the best way to train for this ? yes I know the answer is "intervals", but right now I can't seem to put much effort in even in the intervals, compared to what i used to be able to.  So I need some sort of structure to it.

Ideas ?

[Chris S]

Intervals will train your CV system, but power needs strength. Squats perhaps? How about some core work so you can increase the leverage your body creates?

And intervals .

[border-rider]

Just ride up some hills on fixed then, eh ?



You're right - it needs strength, and that will come with more miles.  But I've found that even when running, I'm running flat-out at a good 10-15 bpm lower than I used to be able to.

[Zoidburg]

I would start training on a higher gear, too spinny over many miles all the time and you loose muscle mass - just think about how many cyclists you have met who look like they are starving to death.

Apart from that I am afraid that it is simply age.

[inc]

Training just to get fit can make motivation hard. Maybe set some sort of goals, only you know what will motivate you to push yourself.

[border-rider]

I would start training on higher gear, too spinny over many miles all the time and you loose muscle mass.

Muscle mass I have in spades

If anything I could do with less.

But yes, you're right, and I've put my gearing back to 67" from the 59" it was.  Slogging over the Beacons with that is good strength training.

Apart from that I am afraid that it is simply age.

Sure, I'll not see 220 bpm again, but this is quite a big decrease in a short time... I'm pretty sure that with appropriate training (and time) I'll get at least some of it back.  I just want to know how to start.

[border-rider]

Training just to get fit can make motivation hard. Maybe set some sort of goals, only you know what will motivate you to push yourself.

Motivation I've got.  I'm getting the miles in, and losing weight apace. 

[teethgrinder]

Regular steady miles to lay down the foundations to begin with.
They might feel tough at first but they'll get easy if you do it enough.
Then intervals for fitness and build up on that.
I use big gears for strength too. I sometimes get the 100+ inch fixer out in late February, early March and do some long rides on that until I can get comfortable doing about 200 miles on a big gear. (I can easly avoid monster climbs which I can't climb on a really big gear) Or lots of hills will be good for strength.
Then you just concentrate on your fitness or strength, whichever you need the most, but keep up the steady foundation miles too if you can.
For real power, you'd do some sprint training. To develop speed as well, sprint downhill. To develop more strength then sprint uphill.

I've noticed that with Audaxing my strength has sky rocketed, but my speed is terrible. I used to race on the velodrome before I started Audaxing and had poor strength, but quite a bit of speed. Sprinting was never my thing though.

[inc]

Motivation I've got.  I'm getting the miles in, and losing weight apace. 

That could be part of the problem. If you are loosing weight you are mostly burning fat not the best fuel for power development plus your metabolism will be slowing trying to prevent the fat loss.

[border-rider]

No, I'm being careful about that stuff

I know not to expect to be able to produce big power with no calories.  I'm not seeing much power even when fully-fueled

[mattc]

How much power do you want? Do you mean flat-out-CHris-Hoy type power. Or climbing-bastard-hill power?

If the former, you need plyometrics and other scary stuff.
If the latter, I reckon the 'normal' cycling recipes will do, you just need patience. [see various stuff all over this site and others - LotsaBase+intervals@LT being the essence of it]

I think strength is irrelevant* - you need to train the heart+legs combo to put out good power at good efficiency.

If you're sure your HR isn't as high as it could be, just keep banging out the LT intervals and it may creep up a bit - allowing for normal tail-off with age, as you mention.

*Certainly for someone that can grind up Gospel Pass on fixed.

p.s. I think TeethGrinder uses "strength" to mean something completely different to me, and I suspect to most sports-science-pundits!
[Strength = force a muscle can generate i.e. for biceps, how much can you curl, or how large a weight can you squat, etc ... ]

pp.s. I think riding fixed makes controlled training very difficult. Unless you have a vast selection of different gradient hills of various lengths! Gears are your friend to allow training at the right intensities consistently.

[border-rider]

Unless you have a vast selection of different gradient hills of various lengths!

That's what Wales is for

[MSeries]

Plyometrics for power, but you need a good strength base first.



Get the Book Weight Training for Cyclists by Ken Doyle and Eric Schmitz. They can explain it better than me.

[MSeries]

Just ride up some hills on fixed then, eh ?



You're right - it needs strength, and that will come with more miles.  But I've found that even when running, I'm running flat-out at a good 10-15 bpm lower than I used to be able to.

Not sure riding up hills will improve power, strength yes, but it doesn't really train your muscles to fire quicker.

[Rich753]

Mentioned earlier but a bit overlooked I suggest, and I know not everyone on the forum agrees, but I've found a structured strength program in the gym has helped me recover some of my power - don't know if you lose fast-twitch or they just get lazy, but squats, deadlifts, cleans are awesome for recovering strength.

[teethgrinder]

p.s. I think TeethGrinder uses "strength" to mean something completely different to me, and I suspect to most sports-science-pundits!
[Strength = force a muscle can generate i.e. for biceps, how much can you curl, or how large a weight can you squat, etc ... ]

By strength, I mean being able to keep going without my muscles giving way. If I only rode a 70" fixed all the time, then did a very long ride, my legs would feel it at the end. If I push a big gear for a few long rides, my legs really do feel it at the end. But when I go back to my normal gear my legs are strong to the finish.

But as MSeries says, my big gear work allthough improves my power output, isn't really great for power.
Power is what you need to go fast. Chris Hoy is extremely powerfull, but could he ride for days on end without his legs getting tired?
I can (or I could, I'm out of shape now) but if I try and sprint I might manage 35mph at my best. Chris Hoy could do that without trying.

I'm planning to dabble in time trials this year to improve my power output. But I know that unless I get the miles in, do some hilly rides and big gear work, then my legs will be left wanting at the end of long rides, even if I can ride much faster at the start without much effort.

Not sure riding up hills will improve power, strength yes, but it doesn't really train your muscles to fire quicker.

It would definitely improve strength, which will compliment power. I think it would help your power output if you ride up hills fast. I think that climbing hills fast at your normal flat cadence is really good training. It'll improve the pedalling technique because any dead spots will show up much more when climbing and it will also show if you ease off. Or you could use a turbo with a big resistance and a lowish gear for the same effect.

pp.s. I think riding fixed makes controlled training very difficult. Unless you have a vast selection of different gradient hills of various lengths! Gears are your friend to allow training at the right intensities consistently.

With a great big gear on fixed, it's all just a constant slow grind.
I also feel it on the inside too and not just in the legs.
I'd use a turbo for controlled stuff, especially intervals. But on a fixed it's only the cadence that changes. You can put in a constant effort.

[simonp]

I think aerobic base + LT intervals, as mattc said.  That's the advice I got from my fitness testing.  

It helps to have some idea of what your LT is; there are various methods you can use at home to estimate this.

Intervals are thought to work because you can maximise time at the correct intensity level to train LT; you can't sit at the LT for very long if working at steady state.  An interval session allows you to spend 25 minutes (say) at threshold power, by breaking it down to small chunks.  I can't do 25 minutes @250W in one go, but it's feasible to do it in 5 minute batches.  The other benefit is the recoveries between intervals, you train active recovery (i.e. you train your body to recover during descents).

I'm afraid as far as strength training goes, I have no experience, except that I concur that riding fixed has helped me alot.

[Ian H]

Simple way to get motivated is to ride a few time trials. Any local club 10s?

[Chris S]

If you are doing your training based on a HRM - when was the last time you measured your Max HR?

[MSeries]

Power need a good base of strength. Power is measured in joules/second. The energy expended divided by time.  Increasing what you can lift of riding up hills in bigger gears will not necessarily take more power. You need to do it faster to use more power. That's the definintion/demonstration.

Chris Hoy has high power (I would imagine) because he can deliver his effort over a very short period of time. The best sprinters are born with more fast twitch fibres than the rest of us, but most of us can train what we have to be more effective.

Now training for it ? that's the question. Ride up hills faster, the gear is not important, you need to overcome the same resistance in a shorter time and hence use more power. Like, 'just riding fast' is not the the most effective way of becoming a faster rider, riding up hills faster is not the most effective way of developing more power. Plyometrics. Squats,deadlifts, clean and jerks. Explosively and high reps.

I can't recommend any form of interval training because I don't know about it. That's not me saying they are not effective.

[mattc]

p.s. I think TeethGrinder uses "strength" to mean something completely different to me, and I suspect to most sports-science-pundits!
[Strength = force a muscle can generate i.e. for biceps, how much can you curl, or how large a weight can you squat, etc ... ]

By strength, I mean being able to keep going without my muscles giving way. If I only rode a 70" fixed all the time, then did a very long ride, my legs would feel it at the end. If I push a big gear for a few long rides, my legs really do feel it at the end. But when I go back to my normal gear my legs are strong to the finish.

Ah OK, understood. I think you'll find that the 'experts' call that "Muscle Endurance" or similar.

I don't believe this is an issue for 'normal' cyclists - we use gears to keep our pedalling force well below our max. (Or at least as far as possible, steep hills permitting). This, IMHO, is the beauty of the bicycle - you can pedal forever if you keep the forces low enough!

Hence what the average cyclist wants is high power but at low force - or at least low enough that you can maintain it for however-long-your-chosen-event is. If that event only takes you 25mins, then MAYBE muscle fatigue starts to be a factor - I really don't know.

If you're a track rider, or a road sprinter, then your Muscle Endurance will start to be important.Or if you ride fixed ...

[Wendy]

When you do do intervals, I think they will likely be better if you can find a group of similar ability and get competitive.  It's far too easy to go slow otherwise.

[simonp]

p.s. I think TeethGrinder uses "strength" to mean something completely different to me, and I suspect to most sports-science-pundits!
[Strength = force a muscle can generate i.e. for biceps, how much can you curl, or how large a weight can you squat, etc ... ]

By strength, I mean being able to keep going without my muscles giving way. If I only rode a 70" fixed all the time, then did a very long ride, my legs would feel it at the end. If I push a big gear for a few long rides, my legs really do feel it at the end. But when I go back to my normal gear my legs are strong to the finish.

Ah OK, understood. I think you'll find that the 'experts' call that "Muscle Endurance" or similar.

I don't believe this is an issue for 'normal' cyclists - we use gears to keep our pedalling force well below our max. (Or at least as far as possible, steep hills permitting). This, IMHO, is the beauty of the bicycle - you can pedal forever if you keep the forces low enough!

Hence what the average cyclist wants is high power but at low force - or at least low enough that you can maintain it for however-long-your-chosen-event is. If that event only takes you 25mins, then MAYBE muscle fatigue starts to be a factor - I really don't know.

If you're a track rider, or a road sprinter, then your Muscle Endurance will start to be important.Or if you ride fixed ...

I kinda think of strength as the ability to push a big gear and power the ability to push the best gear for the given conditions.  Fixed requires more strength because you aren't as able to maintain a sensible cadence.  It also requires more power under some circumstances, because you can end up climbing faster on fixed.

I already have sufficient instantaneous power.  I can peak at 1300W, which is well above what is required for normal road riding, where I need 350W to climb a 1:4 at 3mph.  What I am trying to develop is the continuous power, which doesn't afaik require any more strength than I already have.

[simonp]

When you do do intervals, I think they will likely be better if you can find a group of similar ability and get competitive.  It's far too easy to go slow otherwise.

Cambridge Tri Club organise weekly turbo sessions just for this. 

There are also the spinning classes at gyms.

[inc]

I already have sufficient instantaneous power.  I can peak at 1300W, which is well above what is required for normal road riding, where I need 350W to climb a 1:4 at 3mph.  What I am trying to develop is the continuous power, which doesn't afaik require any more strength than I already have.

You have all the data but are you sure you are interpreting it correctly to achieve your goal. Your quoted peak power is just that it means nothing in reality, if they dragged in some average people off the street some would equal and exceed that value but what does that prove in relation to cycling, nothing. I can't understand how you are going to achieve continuous power ( not sure exactly what you mean by that) without increasing strength. As you go faster on your bike it requires disproportionally more power which requires more strength. Going up hill fast requires more strength You have also posted some intervals you have done which are too short for the low load at under your AT. Intervals are supposed to break a load you cannot maintain for long periods into shorter periods, you should be able to ride at your AT for an hour at least. Riding at your AT or just above  increases your bodies ability to handle lactate which in turn to ride at that load longer. Unless you have favourable genes be prepared for a lot of training to significantly rise your cruising speed or hill climbing,  sadly short intervals at insufficient load aren't going to achieve anything significant. You will need a starting minimum of 2-3 hours a week at level 2 and that gets very hard within a few months as you get fitter. I would save the turbo interval time for level 3 sessions ( above AT). Although a power meter is great for showing the definitive  load through the transmission a HRM is giving the bigger picture of how your body is coping ( or not) with the overall load.