Would this not be better off posted on the AUK official forum?To be fair, the thread already there hasn't produced a flood of detail from the board.
http://forum.audax.uk/index.php
That could be because there is little point in having many discussions at the moment.. ???Would this not be better off posted on the AUK official forum?To be fair, the thread already there hasn't produced a flood of detail from the board.
http://forum.audax.uk/index.php
Would this not be better off posted on the AUK official forum?To be fair, the thread already there hasn't produced a flood of detail from the board.
http://forum.audax.uk/index.php
Audax UK don't need to guess "that that people want an update on plans". It's called leadership and specifically sharing its vision with its membership. The board are all volunteers and of course they have other things to do. But suggesting that they will only consider action and let people know what the cunning plan is if people ask them to is to demean their intellect.Would this not be better off posted on the AUK official forum?To be fair, the thread already there hasn't produced a flood of detail from the board.
http://forum.audax.uk/index.php
To be fair, that's because no-one has asked them about it specifically. There's only really been your question about what was said to the insurers. I don't see how AUK are supposed to guess from that that people want an update on plans for any kind of validation and whether AUK are even considering that.
We should all remember audax uk is run by volunteers and as such people have other things in life to worry about.
AndThis is the type of thing we want to avoid. What happens if Scotland and Wales have slightly different rules? Are you allowed to use motorway services that are open, but buy food and drink that is only supplied for key workers? If calender events open who monitors the number of people in controls?
d. with regional variations or uniform across the regions
The AUK Board indicating which of those choices was their preferred/ likely option would be sufficient, given the lack of detail provided by the UK/ England government regarding their plans for the un-lockdown process.
And one problem is some people need everything in life mapped out while others just go with the flow.
On the deleted thread, a poster opined that an asymptomatic solo DIY by GPSer would be a high transmission risk by spreading the virus far and wide by purchases at each refreshment stop. The concept of mitigation measures didn’t seem to be considered.
I assume you meant infected and asymptomatic. Comes to that, you don't even need to be infected - anyone can be a transmitter if they're a bit careless. We are, in case you've forgotten, exhorted to 'stay alert'. That is not an AUK thing.
Audax UK don't need to guess "that that people want an update on plans". It's called leadership and specifically sharing its vision with its membership. The board are all volunteers and of course they have other things to do. But suggesting that they will only consider action and let people know what the cunning plan is if people ask them to is to demean their intellect.Would this not be better off posted on the AUK official forum?To be fair, the thread already there hasn't produced a flood of detail from the board.
http://forum.audax.uk/index.php
To be fair, that's because no-one has asked them about it specifically. There's only really been your question about what was said to the insurers. I don't see how AUK are supposed to guess from that that people want an update on plans for any kind of validation and whether AUK are even considering that.
It's for this reason that I think AUK should mainly let us get on with it - they've trusted us to not break the law for 40 years; why change that?And one problem is some people need everything in life mapped out while others just go with the flow.
AUK doesn't have regulations such as "your bike must have efficient brakes" or "you must have working lights front and rear" it just says "you must comply with the Road Traffic Regs". Same sort of thing.
It's for this reason that I think AUK should mainly let us get on with it - they've trusted us to not break the law for 40 years; why change that?And one problem is some people need everything in life mapped out while others just go with the flow.
AUK doesn't have regulations such as "your bike must have efficient brakes" or "you must have working lights front and rear" it just says "you must comply with the Road Traffic Regs". Same sort of thing.
Can you imagine the state of an event Finish controller being handed a steady stream of grubby brevet cards, ATM chits etc. If all this accelerates a move towards paperless rides that will be one good thing to come out of it, I reckon.
Or go digital. Spend some of the quazillions of IT budget (or get some sucker to do it for free) and build an eBrevetCard app. When you reach a control point, you rev up the app and click the stamp button. After collecting all the stamps and when you have internet, press submit button.Can you imagine the state of an event Finish controller being handed a steady stream of grubby brevet cards, ATM chits etc. If all this accelerates a move towards paperless rides that will be one good thing to come out of it, I reckon.
That's easily sorted. No instant validations. The rider HAS TO enclose all the proof in a plastic sealed bag to be collected at the finish and post it in a shoe box. The organiser doesn't touch the content of the box for X days until it is safe to do so.
Anyway, again, all academic as I don;t think there will be Audax events until it is safe to operate as per normal
What socially irresponsible attitudes do you feel would be encouraged by organising socially distanced, self supported, non group, cycle rides entirely outdoors ?It's for this reason that I think AUK should mainly let us get on with it - they've trusted us to not break the law for 40 years; why change that?And one problem is some people need everything in life mapped out while others just go with the flow.
AUK doesn't have regulations such as "your bike must have efficient brakes" or "you must have working lights front and rear" it just says "you must comply with the Road Traffic Regs". Same sort of thing.
Because it's not about breaking the law. It's about not encouraging people to disregard certain aspects of social responsibility. (Right now, given the current restrictions/guidelines/etc because of the pandemic.)
And, again, no-one is stopping anyone riding their bike (although the Welsh and Scottish Governments are to some respect).
What socially irresponsible attitudes do you feel would be encouraged by organising socially distanced, self supported cycle rides entirely outdoors ?It's for this reason that I think AUK should mainly let us get on with it - they've trusted us to not break the law for 40 years; why change that?And one problem is some people need everything in life mapped out while others just go with the flow.
AUK doesn't have regulations such as "your bike must have efficient brakes" or "you must have working lights front and rear" it just says "you must comply with the Road Traffic Regs". Same sort of thing.
Because it's not about breaking the law. It's about not encouraging people to disregard certain aspects of social responsibility. (Right now, given the current restrictions/guidelines/etc because of the pandemic.)
And, again, no-one is stopping anyone riding their bike (although the Welsh and Scottish Governments are to some respect).
A third of the the population has put put on half a stone each during lockdown. That is half a trillion calories unless I have mentally slipped a decimal point.
Maybe the bit I don’t understand is how audax is more than just exercise. I appreciate a normal audax includes social gathering and coffee stops. I am suggesting removing those during times of covid leaving just the cycling and a gold star.What socially irresponsible attitudes do you feel would be encouraged by organising socially distanced, self supported cycle rides entirely outdoors ?It's for this reason that I think AUK should mainly let us get on with it - they've trusted us to not break the law for 40 years; why change that?And one problem is some people need everything in life mapped out while others just go with the flow.
AUK doesn't have regulations such as "your bike must have efficient brakes" or "you must have working lights front and rear" it just says "you must comply with the Road Traffic Regs". Same sort of thing.
Because it's not about breaking the law. It's about not encouraging people to disregard certain aspects of social responsibility. (Right now, given the current restrictions/guidelines/etc because of the pandemic.)
And, again, no-one is stopping anyone riding their bike (although the Welsh and Scottish Governments are to some respect).
A third of the the population has put put on half a stone each during lockdown. That is half a trillion calories unless I have mentally slipped a decimal point.
Audaxing is an outlier. A third of the population putting on half a stone is nothing to do with AUK stopping validating rides. Fewer than 10,000 individuals do a 200km+ ride in a normal year and the vast majority of those will be regular cyclists that will still be doing lots of cycling (which no-one is preventing them from doing).
I gave my opinion in the old thread as to why I think, right now, given the current guidelines/restrictions, Audaxing would not be a socially responsible thing to encourage. But that's just my personal opinion, however it seems to be similar to the view held by the AUK board hence their view that it they should withdraw validation.
You can make it about my personal opinion but I'm not the one setting AUK policy on this. Your beef seems to be with AUK not me. I accept that your opinion differs and I'm not making any attempt to change your mind as it doesn't really matter to me.
As a rough precis of my thoughts in the original thread:-
* Exercise is good and there are no limits on exercise[1]
* Audax is more than just exercise
* One of the primary items in the current guidance is "Stay at home as much as possible" and unnecessary things like Audax would fall under this (in my opinion)
* No-one could guarantee that all riders would be able to stick to social distancing and hygiene standards even if rides were limited to solo DIYs or Perms (every individual will think they can individually but AUK has to think of the average and worst cases)
* Given all of this (and probably some other stuff) AUK has decided that it should not be encouraging people to do unnecessary activities
1. Although I would guess that the "unlimited" part was to stop people getting all judgemental about others if there were limits (e.g. the fact that people believe that there was a "1 hour of exercise per day" limit with the original restrictions).
Maybe the bit I don’t understand is how audax is more than just exercise. I appreciate a normal audax includes social gathering and coffee stops. I am suggesting removing those during times of covid leaving just the cycling and a gold star.
I think it is very possible that it woukd, currently rrty is suspended with existing part complete efforts able to resume when validation is available.Maybe the bit I don’t understand is how audax is more than just exercise. I appreciate a normal audax includes social gathering and coffee stops. I am suggesting removing those during times of covid leaving just the cycling and a gold star.
Do you think the number of AUK members doing 200km+ rides would go up if AUK offered validation for solo DIYs/Perms? (I'm sure some AUK members are doing it anyway, without validation.)
If yes then you can see that that kind of Audax is more than just exercise, otherwise AUK offering validation would not affect the numbers of AUK members doing it.
If AUK wasn't "more then just exercise" then there wouldn't be any change, but there have been people on here saying they'd love to keep doing a 200 a month to keep their RTTY going but they aren't doing those types of rides because there's no validation and so little point (and they can maintain their fitness with more frequent shorter rides over a more local area).
Yup, sounds good.Can you imagine the state of an event Finish controller being handed a steady stream of grubby brevet cards, ATM chits etc. If all this accelerates a move towards paperless rides that will be one good thing to come out of it, I reckon.
That's easily sorted. No instant validations. The rider HAS TO enclose all the proof in a plastic sealed bag to be collected at the finish and post it in a shoe box. The organiser doesn't touch the content of the box for X days until it is safe to do so.
I see audax as a way of encouraging exercise just like strava, park run, runbritainrankings or veloviewer. The fact you can persuade grown adults to cycle 100km, 200km or more for a rubber stamp is bizarre but true. I don’t see why getting a rubber stamp changes it from being allowed exercise to being an unnecessary irresponsible undertaking. I must admit I am new to this whole business, last year was my first full season - I did some SRs and am now hooked. I view it as a complex and bizarre version of strava.Maybe the bit I don’t understand is how audax is more than just exercise. I appreciate a normal audax includes social gathering and coffee stops. I am suggesting removing those during times of covid leaving just the cycling and a gold star.
Do you think the number of AUK members doing 200km+ rides would go up if AUK offered validation for solo DIYs/Perms? (I'm sure some AUK members are doing it anyway, without validation.)
If yes then you can see that that kind of Audax is more than just exercise, otherwise AUK offering validation would not affect the numbers of AUK members doing it.
If AUK wasn't "more then just exercise" then there wouldn't be any change, but there have been people on here saying they'd love to keep doing a 200 a month to keep their RTTY going but they aren't doing those types of rides because there's no validation and so little point (and they can maintain their fitness with more frequent shorter rides over a more local area).
Why is there all this talk of the 4 nations aligning, the only events i have ever heard off/.Yes - can anyone confirm that the Risk Assessments of these rides are checked against all local regulations?
read about in northern Ireland are under audax Ireland ( i could be wrong).
Secondly there are many members abroad. Who ride Auk perms regular in there own country!
Do you think the number of AUK members doing 200km+ rides would go up if AUK offered validation for solo DIYs/Perms?I feel a bit silly and childish about this but yes, DIY validation and SR award would nudge me on riding more than 200km. In the past month I did a few rides around 200km but can't bring myself to go further at the moment.
I am stopping reading this thread. Having spent too much time with Lawers and Compliance officers I know enough to know this could be argued about for years with no firm conclusions.
Discussions will go along the following lines. Someone sets up a scinareo, it pushes against one of the rules, some people think this is reasonable and others do not. Repeat many times.
There will be no conclusion.
AUK should not get involved and wait for clarity in the rules from the goverment.
Trust the Committee.
BB
Sent from my H8216 using Tapatalk
A cloverleaf route DIY returning to home addresses a lot of people’s concerns regarding transmission.
I know I'm a girl but I don't see how anyone can ride a 4001 without needing a toilet stop.
Toilet stops mean touching surfaces and possibly disseminating the virus. Hand-washing facilities are often poor, whatever your intentions.
1) Even 100 km without a loo is a challenge to many.
Is audax likely to be progressively restarted or ‘all or nothing’?
I don't understand how it can be the socially responsible thing to open up events, even if DIY's unless it's for everyone across the country.
2) is the board considering a return to poems before calendar events
You are not in a position to answer that question, but the Board is.
A third of the the population has put put on half a stone each during lockdown.
7/10
2) is the board considering a return to poems before calendar events
When anybody knows
Or policy grows
To burn off the lard
With a brevet card
It is certain to be expressed in prose.
A third of the the population has put put on half a stone each during lockdown.
Wow. But feel better that it's not just me!
A third of the the population has put put on half a stone each during lockdown.
Wow. But feel better that it's not just me!
The other 2/3rds have lost it... ;D
Seriously... there was nothing in the regulations that prevented from doing weight loss activities, but a lot that prevented weight gain activities, with bars, pubs, cafes and restaurants closed...
My suspicion is that any event with sleeping accommodation will have to be fundamentally changed, and may well be unviable or the preserve of the wealthiest riders (if the BCM (for example) could only accommodate say 50 riders at Kings, entry costs may have to go up considerably)(either because of the limited capacity or the requirement to have two sleep facilities hired).
It will be a challenging time for us all.
7.5% down for me, lack of access to food (empty supermarkets early days, no fast food, no popping in to shop for chocolate or fizzy drinks) has me at my lowest weight for many years. Stepped on the scales this morning to find my BMI is now down to 25
A third of the the population has put put on half a stone each during lockdown.
Wow. But feel better that it's not just me!
The other 2/3rds have lost it... ;D
Seriously... there was nothing in the regulations that prevented from doing weight loss activities, but a lot that prevented weight gain activities, with bars, pubs, cafes and restaurants closed...
Yep, the whole not living out of hotels and restaurants thing, plus being able to ride my bike more has given me a 5% weight drop since March.
Overnight events will be very tricky, I wonder what the restrictions on hotels will be, deep cleaning between guests,? rooms empty for a period between guests? All likely to significantly increase the cost of a single night in a travelodge, making even diy 600s expensive unless run as two loops from home.
You are not in a position to answer that question, but the Board is.
Which begs the question again why do you keep asking on here?
Because a larger group of experienced and intelligent folk thinking about the problem are more likely to identify all of the issues and to find better mitigation measures than a small group is.
I am not sure if that will be the case. Many of the budget chains are pestering me with cheap offers of flexible bookings. Even if it does turn out that hotels costs become a barrier to entry, perhaps audax should move towards a more self sufficient model.
Overnight events will be very tricky, I wonder what the restrictions on hotels will be, deep cleaning between guests,? rooms empty for a period between guests? All likely to significantly increase the cost of a single night in a travelodge, making even diy 600s expensive unless run as two loops from home.
Travel in general will become more expensive for quite some time. A combination of fewer customers and increased running costs means budget hotels will struggle.
I'm down to 67.5 kg, from 73 pre-lockdown... BMI now is 22, it's almost a stone and it means trousers don't fit anymore... feels great on the bike though
All this hand wringing about social responsibility is a little off key.
I did quite a long ride yesterday (2 shops and hedges for toilets) which went through a few seaside resorts. Let me tell you the general public does not GAF about social responsibility.
You won't save the world by stopping audax. Any idea that is predicated on that is false and should be binned.
You won't save the world by stopping audax. Any idea that is predicated on that is false and should be binned.
All this hand wringing about social responsibility is a little off key.
I did quite a long ride yesterday (2 shops and hedges for toilets) which went through a few seaside resorts. Let me tell you the general public does not GAF about social responsibility.
The disconnect is really quite stark. You look online and a bunch of people are all posting from their bedrooms, wondering whether everyone on the planet should stay in their bedrooms for the next ten years to avoid one single person dying of c*****9. Then you go outside and find that everyone else is living their life as normal.
You won't save the world by stopping audax. Any idea that is predicated on that is false and should be binned.
You won't save the world by stopping audax. Any idea that is predicated on that is false and should be binned.
You won't. But while the social distancing and other requirements remain in force - even if they are being flouted by some - it would be grossly irresponsible for AUK to decide to ignore them.
You won't save the world by stopping audax. Any idea that is predicated on that is false and should be binned.
I think you will find it is a matter of insurance and public perception more than anything else
Your argument is that we should flout the ban on group sporting events because you have seen people breaking lockdown regulations.Perhaps Audax U.K. should change its tag line to the “long distance group cyclists association”
Circular argument. Well done.
In Ireland, Cycling Ireland have shared their approach, which they call rather neatly a 'road map'
"Cycling Ireland road map for road cycling: From May 18th to Autumn"
http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/when-will-group-rides-races-sportives-return-we-have-the-likely-dates/?fbclid=IwAR0qrQIeRDfB5I4ffJXRrEsUNTzuF36YtC9zwxrxy3jRiChQMKP1E-D4WQA
Worth noting the county level restriction at "Phase 5".
That would totally suck if it applied here and you lived in Clackmannanshire or Rutland
That's interesting. The big difference between here and there is that the national cycling body appears to be getting specific advice from government.
Point of order:
BC's history/expertise is in racing. They have nothing to do with Audax. Even their GoRide schemes for kids are race-focused.(I've been to a session).
Which national cycling body last ran the National 400?
Some people can't resist a political snipe. This isn't about that, it's about how best to adapt to the new normal.
The Irish and Scottish governments have produced documents with no basis. If the virus behaviour is as predicted and the rates of infection as as predicted then it may be reasonable to allow social contact in the following manner.Some people can't resist a political snipe. This isn't about that, it's about how best to adapt to the new normal.
The normal in the two countries is completely different due to the amount of detail their respective governments have set out.
Audax Ireland can look directly towards detailed government papers that explain exactly what will be allowed in future and when. Audax UK is stuck following British Cycling's lead because the UK government hasn't published anything useful to go on.
The Irish and Scottish governments have produced documents with no basis. If the virus behaviour is as predicted and the rates of infection as as predicted then it may be reasonable to allow social contact in the following manner.Some people can't resist a political snipe. This isn't about that, it's about how best to adapt to the new normal.
The normal in the two countries is completely different due to the amount of detail their respective governments have set out.
Audax Ireland can look directly towards detailed government papers that explain exactly what will be allowed in future and when. Audax UK is stuck following British Cycling's lead because the UK government hasn't published anything useful to go on.
There are so many variables they are effectively meaningless.
The Irish one has aspirational dates.When I saw the Cycling Ireland (RoI) timetable the first thing I thought was "well done for having a plan" and noted that the dates were tentative and carefully/sensibly caveated. I also noted the longing envy of the fact that riding in 'the North' was unhindered by irrational (from a risk mitigation PoV) 'no more than 5km/20km from home' limitations.
The Scottish one (and NI and Welsh ones) have guidance on the situation for implementation and a note saying "we may have to step backwards" along with plans of what to do at each stage with a note saying "these may not all come in at the same time, and we may need to fiddle with it"
England has a powerpoint slide...
It's really an exercise in trying to provide a clear enough guide, people are taking them as out and out time tables though hence the Yoons scream "WHYS THERE NO DATES?".
I'd suggest the devolved administrations have been overly specific in reaction to Westminsters shambolic rambling.
When I saw the RoI timetable the first thing I thought was "how the feck can you put dates on these?"
Poetry worthy of Dan Brown! ;D
2) is the board considering a return to poems before calendar events
When anybody knows
Or policy grows
To burn off the lard
With a brevet card
It is certain to be expressed in prose.
The Scottish one (and NI and Welsh ones) have guidance on the situation for implementation and a note saying "we may have to step backwards" along with plans of what to do at each stage with a note saying "these may not all come in at the same time, and we may need to fiddle with it"
True. It may be something that organisers can assess* for themselves - we did survive cancelling everything once (and I have every sympathy for those lumbered with the extra work).The Scottish one (and NI and Welsh ones) have guidance on the situation for implementation and a note saying "we may have to step backwards" along with plans of what to do at each stage with a note saying "these may not all come in at the same time, and we may need to fiddle with it"
All well and good, but from an Audax UK point of view, an approach like that is hugely problematic. Events have to be entered/paid in advance, then ridden. Stepping backwards gets people involved in a whole lot of refund pain. Fiddling round the edges ofa plan involves volunteer effort that simply may not be forthcoming.
The Scottish one (and NI and Welsh ones) have guidance on the situation for implementation and a note saying "we may have to step backwards" along with plans of what to do at each stage with a note saying "these may not all come in at the same time, and we may need to fiddle with it"
All well and good, but from an Audax UK point of view, an approach like that is hugely problematic. Events have to be entered/paid in advance, then ridden. Stepping backwards gets people involved in a whole lot of refund pain. Fiddling round the edges ofa plan involves volunteer effort that simply may not be forthcoming.
There previous stance of no events until 1st August at earliest remains.
There previous stance of no events until 1st August at earliest remains.
and Audax LEJOG has not been cancelled that finises in 31st July :thumbsup:
Don't know if that's a co-incidence - the new, "self-sufficient" GBDURO is scheduled for August 1st:
https://www.theracingcollective.com/gbduro.html
BC have sent a mail out.
1. National level races suspended to 1st Sep
2. Sportives suspended to 1st Aug
3. Club rides and Breeze rides only suspended to 4th July as they could be reintroduced at short notice.
If AUK are following BC then 2 is the nearest fit for calendar events.
Not scavenging. Setting off at the start carrying sufficient food for the entire event. This is quite feasible. For the marathon des sables running race you have to carry 6 days of food and that is running. When travelling to somewhere uninhabited back in the 80s I had 4 weeks worth of food on a bike. The only resource you would scavenge for is water as that is too heavy to carry.Don't know if that's a co-incidence - the new, "self-sufficient" GBDURO is scheduled for August 1st:
https://www.theracingcollective.com/gbduro.html
Their concept of self-sufficient prohibits the use of "Commercial services and buildings in general"
So erm like shops then? 2000km only scavenging... right...
BC have sent a mail out.Sportives of around 50 riders are a very good fit!
1. National level races suspended to 1st Sep
2. Sportives suspended to 1st Aug
3. Club rides and Breeze rides only suspended to 4th July as they could be reintroduced at short notice.
If AUK are following BC then 2 is the nearest fit for calendar events.
BC have sent a mail out.Sportives of around 50 riders are a very good fit!
1. National level races suspended to 1st Sep
2. Sportives suspended to 1st Aug
3. Club rides and Breeze rides only suspended to 4th July as they could be reintroduced at short notice.
If AUK are following BC then 2 is the nearest fit for calendar events.
My friend is entered for this and they have hotels booked for the start, finish *and* part way round. She was saying last week they'd almost rather it was cancelled then at least they'd know what to do- postponement won't really help them re-plan, as they don't know what will be open then, either.Don't know if that's a co-incidence - the new, "self-sufficient" GBDURO is scheduled for August 1st:
https://www.theracingcollective.com/gbduro.html
Their concept of self-sufficient prohibits the use of "Commercial services and buildings in general"
So erm like shops then? 2000km only scavenging... right...
...hotels booked ... part way round.
BC have sent a mail out.
1. National level races suspended to 1st Sep
2. Sportives suspended to 1st Aug
3. Club rides and Breeze rides only suspended to 4th July as they could be reintroduced at short notice.
If AUK are following BC then 2 is the nearest fit for calendar events.
Suspension of British and Scottish Cycling Sanctioned Activity
All British Cycling sanctioned cycling activity is currently suspended until 30 June 2020.
While many of you have been enjoying the opportunity to ride recreationally, we appreciate
that the cycling community is looking for direction and certainty on when club, group and
competitive activity can resume.
The British Cycling position has been agreed with Scottish Cycling and Welsh Cycling, but we
recognise that devolved government guidance may dictate that adjustments are required,
including the dates we are working towards.
To support the Scottish Cycling clubs, event organisers and riders, the following guidance
will further explain the British Cycling extension to the suspension of activity, in Scotland.
International and British National level races, including British National Series, British
Championships and Sportives
British Cycling are extending the suspension of International and British National Series and
Championship races and all Sportives until 1 September 2020. This will include the British
National Series events which were due to take place in Scotland during that time.
British Cycling will review this on a fortnightly basis in line with UK Government advice and
will give six weeks’ public notice of any extension or curtailment of the suspension. British
Cycling, working with event organisers and stakeholders will lead on the process to
rearrange these events later in the calendar year if possible.
For Sportives in Scotland, these events must follow the Scottish Government advice, and
this will be communicated accordingly if there is any change to this suspension date.
The e-mail to the club states Sportives from 1st August but additional information from Scottish Cycling states Sportives from 1st September.
<SNIP>
It does look increasingly likely that we will be faced with parts of the UK releasing at different speeds (I realise that is happening already but none of them has yet reached the point where we could consider resuming there). We are also looking at a gradual release with announcements followed sometimes several days later by guidelines that do not always seem to be quite what people were expecting.
On that basis, we will need to consider and decide on the fundamentals around those issues - ie are we willing (or indeed able in some cases) to validate some types or durations of events but not others and to validate rides in some parts of the UK but not others - and make the appropriate announcement (probably too late for this week so more likely next).
At the same time, we await the detail on the next phases of release in each part of the UK with interest. We are somehow going to have to deal with four different release processes whatever we decide.
<SNIP>
Ajax Bay:Very kind, Pete. Pleased with my level of riding given the limitations, thanks. It was a bit windy down here today. I hope you too are enjoying your ride(s).
I notice there are three sets of guidelines for the other nations too. I hope you're currently working on those to keep yourself occupied.
When the time is right the Board will produce something like this in an hour or two, they might have something drafted already. Do you think yours will help inform them in any way?
I'm not intending to be mean but I don't 'get' the motivation for posting it....other than to promote even more time discussing hypotheticals.
You need to get out on your bike!
It would have been great if you could suggest improvements or missing items - making a contribution - rather than regurgitating the mindset, shared by others and entirely reasonable, that 'Daddy will know best' and 'Daddy has probably sorted this out already' so your (that is: my) comments are nugatory. Which "hypotheticals" do you think are not worth discussing? Just name one! I suggest that these 'hypotheticals' will suddenly (change in UK government guidelines) become possibilities. How irritating would it be not to have spent time planning for resumption?
I am perfectly happy to let ajax bray know , staggered starts and allocated starts wouldn't work for me as a organizer ( i start my events and then have to go to work) , then as a rider i ride events with my mates ,riding with other people is what cycling is about.That's perfectly sensible - we are bound to lose events where organisers can't make their events work under the pandemic laws/guidelines.
I received the email from the AUK perms sec; perfectly happy to make all my 100-200k perms (even the overseas one) available as soon as the All UK guidelines suggest they are safe for riders and others
Caravan and Camping Club discussing their plans for reopening sites; doesn't bode well for communal accommodation like hostels, bunkhouses, bothies and village hall audax controlsI quite like the sound of a multiday camping audax. It seems they are expecting the “no overnight stays” rules to be relaxed. I wonder if they have inside info.
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/scotlands-camping-caravan-sites-set-18414491
Basically 6 cleans a day of toilet blocks where they decide to open them (usually 1...)
For campsites that wouldn't have been so bad maybe 10 years ago before the "day van" concept turned into overnight accommodation.
Caravan and Camping Club discussing their plans for reopening sites; doesn't bode well for communal accommodation like hostels, bunkhouses, bothies and village hall audax controlsI quite like the sound of a multiday camping audax. It seems they are expecting the “no overnight stays” rules to be relaxed. I wonder if they have inside info.
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/scotlands-camping-caravan-sites-set-18414491
Basically 6 cleans a day of toilet blocks where they decide to open them (usually 1...)
For campsites that wouldn't have been so bad maybe 10 years ago before the "day van" concept turned into overnight accommodation.
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Something official by government saying 4th July ?Caravan and Camping Club discussing their plans for reopening sites; doesn't bode well for communal accommodation like hostels, bunkhouses, bothies and village hall audax controlsI quite like the sound of a multiday camping audax. It seems they are expecting the “no overnight stays” rules to be relaxed. I wonder if they have inside info.
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/scotlands-camping-caravan-sites-set-18414491
Basically 6 cleans a day of toilet blocks where they decide to open them (usually 1...)
For campsites that wouldn't have been so bad maybe 10 years ago before the "day van" concept turned into overnight accommodation.
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Muted as July 4th for reopening campsites. Thought that was common knowledge.
Something official by government saying 4th July ?Caravan and Camping Club discussing their plans for reopening sites; doesn't bode well for communal accommodation like hostels, bunkhouses, bothies and village hall audax controlsI quite like the sound of a multiday camping audax. It seems they are expecting the “no overnight stays” rules to be relaxed. I wonder if they have inside info.
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/scotlands-camping-caravan-sites-set-18414491
Basically 6 cleans a day of toilet blocks where they decide to open them (usually 1...)
For campsites that wouldn't have been so bad maybe 10 years ago before the "day van" concept turned into overnight accommodation.
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Muted as July 4th for reopening campsites. Thought that was common knowledge.
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This - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/our-plan-to-rebuild-the-uk-governments-covid-19-recovery-strategy/our-plan-to-rebuild-the-uk-governments-covid-19-recovery-strategy#our-roadmap-to-lift-restrictions-step-by-stepSomething official by government saying 4th July ?Caravan and Camping Club discussing their plans for reopening sites; doesn't bode well for communal accommodation like hostels, bunkhouses, bothies and village hall audax controlsI quite like the sound of a multiday camping audax. It seems they are expecting the “no overnight stays” rules to be relaxed. I wonder if they have inside info.
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/scotlands-camping-caravan-sites-set-18414491
Basically 6 cleans a day of toilet blocks where they decide to open them (usually 1...)
For campsites that wouldn't have been so bad maybe 10 years ago before the "day van" concept turned into overnight accommodation.
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Muted as July 4th for reopening campsites. Thought that was common knowledge.
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Yes
Have a read of their strategy document Covid 19 plan to rebuild.
I wonder if they have inside info.
I wonder if they have inside info.
Being an organization with a long term existence and heavy lobbying presence with government, they are probably in the loop of civil service engagement, similar to sport governing bodies that lobby government and therefore known to civil service.
Accommodation covers site based camping...
Cross off the events with mandatory sleeping, feeding and toilet facilities off for 2020.I wonder if they have inside info.
Being an organization with a long term existence and heavy lobbying presence with government, they are probably in the loop of civil service engagement, similar to sport governing bodies that lobby government and therefore known to civil service.
Accommodation covers site based camping...
No Audax sleeping, feeding toilet facilities i have ever used meet the criteria. I use dormitory sleeping facilities in hostels with shared showers and toilets. These tend to operate on a shoestring budget and now they need to deep clean twice a day and apply distance rules in shared kitchens and dining facilities.
Forget 2020. Plan for 2021.
BB
I wonder if they have inside info.
Being an organization with a long term existence and heavy lobbying presence with government, they are probably in the loop of civil service engagement, similar to sport governing bodies that lobby government and therefore known to civil service.
Accommodation covers site based camping...
No Audax sleeping, feeding toilet facilities i have ever used meet the criteria. I use dormitory sleeping facilities in hostels with shared showers and toilets. These tend to operate on a shoestring budget and now they need to deep clean twice a day and apply distance rules in shared kitchens and dining facilities.
Forget 2020. Plan for 2021.
BB
Until there is some change in regs/ guidelines from the government, nothing will change for audax uk.Wot he said^^^ :thumbsup:
My advice is simple really, let the board do what it needs to do and in time events etc will return, till then go ride your bike its great fun even with out a brevet card in your pocket, trust me :thumbsup:
...Nothing to do with Audax; but given how much dosh our YHA (& SYHA?) make from group bookings, they would seem
Same, I've been specifically thinking about how Hostels can operate shared spaces, and the follow up to that for hiking clubs using huts and hostels.
I came to the conclusion that it's likely to be "phase 4" in Scottish parlance; and that's nae gonae be this year.
Ach weel at least we can sit oot in the pairk an enjoy the haar fae thirsday....
Time trials are starting up next month. Solo perms seem like a no-brainer, given that the AUK Board are expecting a progressive restart of activities.I cannot find any details on either the Scottish or UK websites about long distance travelling or indeed traveling around the UK and not in 'bubbles'. Can you please supply any references about this as it will be a minority subject. All I can find is stay at home and stay in bubbles. I can not find anything to support the idea that long distance cycling will be allowed, let along organised or encouraged. The CTT advice is very strange as all events are sanctioned by the police and there is advice to check that they still support events sanctioned.
Limited entry X-rated calendar brevets might be the next stage but interested organisers will want some guidance ahead of time to be able to judge whether they want to run such an event.
All of this is, of course, contingent on the AUK Board confirming whether AUK will restart on a regional basis or a unified basis.
1.7 Are there restrictions on how far I can travel for my exercise or outdoor activity?Time trials are starting up next month. Solo perms seem like a no-brainer, given that the AUK Board are expecting a progressive restart of activities.I cannot find any details on either the Scottish or UK websites about long distance travelling or indeed traveling around the UK and not in 'bubbles'. Can you please supply any references about this as it will be a minority subject. All I can find is stay at home and stay in bubbles. I can not find anything to support the idea that long distance cycling will be allowed, let along organised or encouraged. The CTT advice is very strange as all events are sanctioned by the police and there is advice to check that they still support events sanctioned.
Limited entry X-rated calendar brevets might be the next stage but interested organisers will want some guidance ahead of time to be able to judge whether they want to run such an event.
All of this is, of course, contingent on the AUK Board confirming whether AUK will restart on a regional basis or a unified basis.
Maybe this just my reading of the advice, but when camp sites will only under strict restrictions be able to operate showers I find it hard to see how long distance traveling and stopping to eat and drink will be supported.
BB
Time trials are starting up next month. Solo perms seem like a no-brainer, given that the AUK Board are expecting a progressive restart of activities.I cannot find any details on either the Scottish or UK websites about long distance travelling or indeed traveling around the UK and not in 'bubbles'. Can you please supply any references about this as it will be a minority subject. All I can find is stay at home and stay in bubbles. I can not find anything to support the idea that long distance cycling will be allowed, let along organised or encouraged. The CTT advice is very strange as all events are sanctioned by the police and there is advice to check that they still support events sanctioned.
Limited entry X-rated calendar brevets might be the next stage but interested organisers will want some guidance ahead of time to be able to judge whether they want to run such an event.
All of this is, of course, contingent on the AUK Board confirming whether AUK will restart on a regional basis or a unified basis.
Maybe this just my reading of the advice, but when camp sites will only under strict restrictions be able to operate showers I find it hard to see how long distance traveling and stopping to eat and drink will be supported.
BB
Currently all tt are suspended till at least the 5th of july, it seeme like half the country ( England) they are expecting some big change to happen on the 4th of july!
...Nothing to do with Audax; but given how much dosh our YHA (& SYHA?) make from group bookings, they would seem
Same, I've been specifically thinking about how Hostels can operate shared spaces, and the follow up to that for hiking clubs using huts and hostels.
I came to the conclusion that it's likely to be "phase 4" in Scottish parlance; and that's nae gonae be this year.
Ach weel at least we can sit oot in the pairk an enjoy the haar fae thirsday....nae troublequite feasible for family groups. Same with bothys or small club huts. [Just leave a week between bookings, basically.]
I cannot find any details on either the Scottish or UK websites about long distance travelling or indeed traveling around the UK and not in 'bubbles'. Can you please supply any references about this as it will be a minority subject. All I can find is stay at home and stay in bubbles. I can not find anything to support the idea that long distance cycling will be allowed, let along organised or encouraged. The CTT advice is very strange as all events are sanctioned by the police and there is advice to check that they still support events sanctioned.
Maybe this just my reading of the advice, but when camp sites will only under strict restrictions be able to operate showers I find it hard to see how long distance traveling and stopping to eat and drink will be supported.
Point of order: TTs do not require police approval, they have an automatic right to happen as long as the police are informed with a legal minimum notice period.
Point of order: TTs do not require police approval, they have an automatic right to happen as long as the police are informed with a legal minimum notice period.
Unless things have changed since I was involved in TTs all courses are risk assessed and the routes are submitted to the police. Some busy roads had to to car counted and this would be considered and the course withdrawn or only allowed to run at certain times. So if the course is approved and the risk assessment accepted and the police have no objection because of perceived danger to riders or the public or the time or date, then yes they will be allowed to run.
BB
Also if 1 in 16000 are estimated to curently have Sara cov 2 on them, that's 40.5k people UK wide.
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There's 2 elements to the travelThose are all good arguments against tourism but not specifically about tourism by bike. If authorities decide tourism is ok and the benefits outweigh the risks, then I would have thought that would apply to bicycle travel too.
1) is not spreading it about the island which is where your argument about most demographic groups having v. Low risk of death fails a bit as we still don't fully understand asymptomatic transmission or length of contact required to transmit.
The later is why we're still encouraged to minimize how often we shop
2) is about how health care is provisioned and funded.
If you were to come off your bike on oh say the Berriedale braes, there's a provisioning problem because you have to be got to Inverness, normally that's not too bad, either an ambulance appears from wick and takes you south or one of the 4 helicopters turns up.
Problem is, the crews are socially distancing and ppe'ed to the hilt, whys this a problem? It slows response time down.
People will die and will have died because of slower emergency response due to infection control.
The funding is a bit more interesting. (this isn't 100% but is my understanding of it), it's based on population with some uplift for tourists, sort of. Its not a direct problem because of you turn up at raigmore with an NHS number, you get a Chi and a bill gets sent to the appropriate Trust, if I turn up, some sort of jigger poker goes on and Fife somehow pay for it.
The problem is there's only enough beds for locals and a handful of tourists based on a balance of acceptable care and affordable care, then there's the elephant in the room.
Theaters, wards and recovery rooms have been turned into sub-hospitals to cover for patients turning up with covid, that's not just patients with breathing problems etc, that's patients turning up with sprained ankles, broken legs etc.
And for as long as we care about trying to avoid hospital acquired sars-cov-2 that's going to have to remain the case.
Also if 1 in 16000 are estimated to curently have Sara cov 2 on them, that's 40.5k people UK wide.
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If this happens next year there will have to be a very hard discussion about risk because we will not be able to afford the NHS as the economy and national debt will be in such a state if we do lock down again.
The economy will shrink by about 10% this year (but who knows) and the costs of ferloughing are not yet known. The rest of the world is doing this as well. Who knows what will happen?
If this happens next year there will have to be a very hard discussion about risk because we will not be able to afford the NHS as the economy and national debt will be in such a state if we do lock down again.
We will be able to afford the NHS. We might choose not to pay for it, but that would be a political choice.
This is the chart that explains it: national debt as % of GDP has risen recently but remains low by historical levels, and would still be within the post-war range were next year to see a second wave (which seems to be the base case for government scientists now).
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/UK_GDP.png)
The error is 1,600 x 40,500 = 64,800,000
Also if 1 in 16000 are estimated to curently have Sara cov 2 on them, that's 40.5k people UK wide.
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16,000 x 40,500 = 648,000,000
You either have an extra zero somewhere or illegal immigration was higher than reported.
Edit: on reading the previous post I see it was meant to be 1 in 1600.
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To come back to audax and the whole traveling and risk thing. For the people involved in say LEJOG there is no extra risk. The lock down has not been done for these people, it has been so the NHS does not get overwhelmed with people over 70 becoming ill. This is all about the bubble and can you effectively be in one when you ride and sleep overnight in an Audax style. Sort of depends what the authorities think and what the appetite for risk is, which currently looks like zero. Which is OK if a vaccine is produced, but if not we will be in this for years.
BB
So if that view of the bubble is accepted how on earth do we run Audax events with overnight stops?
To come back to audax and the whole traveling and risk thing. For the people involved in say LEJOG there is no extra risk. The lock down has not been done for these people, it has been so the NHS does not get overwhelmed with people over 70 becoming ill. This is all about the bubble and can you effectively be in one when you ride and sleep overnight in an Audax style. Sort of depends what the authorities think and what the appetite for risk is, which currently looks like zero. Which is OK if a vaccine is produced, but if not we will be in this for years.
BB
In the same way as visiting the supermarket (or zoo or vendor of soft furnishings) you could pick up an infection and”seed” a new cluster. I will assess risks nearer the time and decide whether to use provided accommodation or food (if either is still offered) and decide whether to isolate on return (something I would not bother with after a trip to the supermarket). The cycling part of audax must be one of the most risk free activities in existence from a covid point of view. It is how and to what extent you engage in the non cycling parts that could pose a risk.
To come back to audax and the whole traveling and risk thing. For the people involved in say LEJOG there is no extra risk. The lock down has not been done for these people, it has been so the NHS does not get overwhelmed with people over 70 becoming ill. This is all about the bubble and can you effectively be in one when you ride and sleep overnight in an Audax style. Sort of depends what the authorities think and what the appetite for risk is, which currently looks like zero. Which is OK if a vaccine is produced, but if not we will be in this for years.
BB
The issue becomes that even if one of the participants is an asymptotic carrier, there is the possibility that any person returning from the event could “ seed” a new infection cluster.
The only model available as far as I know at the moment is the golf/ football one, where the “ bubble” of people can only leave the bubble following rigorous testing (at the organiser’s cost as far as I can ascertain).
Caravan and Camping Club discussing their plans for reopening sites; doesn't bode well for communal accommodation like hostels, bunkhouses, bothies and village hall audax controls
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/scotlands-camping-caravan-sites-set-18414491
Caravan and Camping Club discussing their plans for reopening sites; doesn't bode well for communal accommodation like hostels, bunkhouses, bothies and village hall audax controls
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/scotlands-camping-caravan-sites-set-18414491
The article discusses the Caravan and Motorhome Club (formerly the Caravan Club), which is a different organisation to the Camping and Caravanning Club. This is a bit People's Front of Judea, I know, but it's important if you want to use a members-only site or camp in a tent.
I think the point I was trying to make was that if an organised site is imposing such strict rule how can an event that has no controls or structure happen?
So if that view of the bubble is accepted how on earth do we run Audax events with overnight stops?
The issue becomes that even if one of the participants is an asymptotic carrier, there is the possibility that any person returning from the event could “ seed” a new infection cluster.
The only model available as far as I know at the moment is the golf/ football one, where the “ bubble” of people can only leave the bubble following rigorous testing (at the organiser’s cost as far as I can ascertain).
In the same way as visiting the supermarket (or zoo or vendor of soft furnishings) you could pick up an infection and”seed” a new cluster. I will assess risks nearer the time and decide whether to use provided accommodation or food (if either is still offered) and decide whether to isolate on return (something I would not bother with after a trip to the supermarket). The cycling part of audax must be one of the most risk free activities in existence from a covid point of view. It is how and to what extent you engage in the non cycling parts that could pose a risk.
People will continue to get covid-19 for months or even years to come. The infrastructure (testing, contact tracing,isolation) needs to be in place to stop infected people causing an outbreak.
Caravan and Camping Club discussing their plans for reopening sites; doesn't bode well for communal accommodation like hostels, bunkhouses, bothies and village hall audax controls
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/scotlands-camping-caravan-sites-set-18414491
The article supposedly[1] discusses the Caravan and Motorhome Club (formerly the Caravan Club), which is a different organisation to the Camping and Caravanning Club. This is a bit People's Front of Judea, I know, but it's important if you want to use a members-only site or camp in a tent.
C&CC have a statement detailing their COVID-19 measures here: https://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/travelplanning/coronavirus/
[1] The quoted statements look suspiciously like those on the above page, so it's possible the author was confused, or they've heavily borrowed from each other's wording (I can't tell, the Caravan and Motorhome Club website isn't working).
They will not be opening Ready Camp Safari Tents, Pods or Self-Catering units this seasonThat's interesting as Pods and Self-Catering units is something a lot of places are opening in lieu of anything else; guess it must be partly down to staffing as most CCC and CC sites are staffed by an old couple living in a caravan next to reception and if they're lucky, some assistants.
The cycling part of audax must be one of the most risk free activities in existence from a covid point of view. It is how and to what extent you engage in the non cycling parts that could pose a risk.
People will continue to get covid-19 for months or even years to come. The infrastructure (testing, contact tracing,isolation) needs to be in place to stop infected people causing an outbreak.
Cycling in isloation is indeed one of the most risk free you can getI wonder what the risk of virus transmission would have been in this Tyneside Vagabonds CC Reliability Ride in '62?
So if that view of the bubble is accepted how on earth do we run Audax events with overnight stops?
A bivvy bag in a bush isn't risking infecting anybody, even though overnighting away from home is currently against regulations. You could get around that by having a support car arrive to pick you up, take you home, then drive you back to the point where you stopped...So if that view of the bubble is accepted how on earth do we run Audax events with overnight stops?
I hate to break it to you but cycling very long distances need not always turn into a serial sleepover. Some randonneurs are perfectly capable of socially-distancing their way round a 600, in fact it's their default mode ;)
Some randonneurs are perfectly capable of socially-distancing their way round a 600, in fact it's their default mode ;)
This encapsulates the issue, its not the riding that is the issue, it is the stopping. You also become very unhygienic on a long ride. Where is the soap and water to wash your hands? I always carry hygienic hand wipes so I can clean my hands when needed (too much detail?). As for overnighting still been an issue it will be interesting to see how hotels start to open up as this will dictate the rules for overnight stays and will be done before hostels and communal sleeping areas. I do not think people biveing solo in fields has crossed the policy makers minds.A bivvy bag in a bush isn't risking infecting anybody, even though overnighting away from home is currently against regulations. You could get around that by having a support car arrive to pick you up, take you home, then drive you back to the point where you stopped...So if that view of the bubble is accepted how on earth do we run Audax events with overnight stops?
I hate to break it to you but cycling very long distances need not always turn into a serial sleepover. Some randonneurs are perfectly capable of socially-distancing their way round a 600, in fact it's their default mode ;)
Surly it makes more sense to just carry a tent/bag with you, but them's the rules, for now.
national debt as % of GDP has risen recently but remains low by historical levels, and would still be within the post-war range were next year to see a second wave (which seems to be the base case for government scientists now).Not only that but interest rates paid by governments are now lower than ever before and some governments are achieving borrowing at negative interest rates which means they're making a (small) profit on the borrowing. So let's be unworried by the cost to the future taxpayer. It still has to be paid back, but the burden to the future taxpayer is lower than it has been in the past.
Where is the soap and water to wash your hands?The little bar of soap is in the frame bag. The water is in the water bottle.
Where is the soap and water to wash your hands?The little bar of soap is in the frame bag. The water is in the water bottle.
national debt as % of GDP has risen recently but remains low by historical levels, and would still be within the post-war range were next year to see a second wave (which seems to be the base case for government scientists now).Not only that but interest rates paid by governments are now lower than ever before and some governments are achieving borrowing at negative interest rates which means they're making a (small) profit on the borrowing. So let's be unworried by the cost to the future taxpayer. It still has to be paid back, but the burden to the future taxpayer is lower than it has been in the past.
In a nutshell: if we have to have a pandemic, now is the time.
Yup, jobsa good'un. Or do this:This encapsulates the issue, its not the riding that is the issue, it is the stopping. You also become very unhygienic on a long ride. Where is the soap and water to wash your hands? I always carry hygienic hand wipes so I can clean my hands when needed (too much detail?).A bivvy bag in a bush isn't risking infecting anybody, even though overnighting away from home is currently against regulations. You could get around that by having a support car arrive to pick you up, take you home, then drive you back to the point where you stopped...So if that view of the bubble is accepted how on earth do we run Audax events with overnight stops?
I hate to break it to you but cycling very long distances need not always turn into a serial sleepover. Some randonneurs are perfectly capable of socially-distancing their way round a 600, in fact it's their default mode ;)
Surly it makes more sense to just carry a tent/bag with you, but them's the rules, for now.
The little bar of soap is in the frame bag. The water is in the water bottle.
I must admit I am fairly new to audax with only 1 full season to my name; my only sleeping in a control was for about 2 hours in fougères on pbp last summer. Otherwise I have slept in hotels or a bivvy bag on the half dozen occasions overnight was involved.Yup, jobsa good'un. Or do this:This encapsulates the issue, its not the riding that is the issue, it is the stopping. You also become very unhygienic on a long ride. Where is the soap and water to wash your hands? I always carry hygienic hand wipes so I can clean my hands when needed (too much detail?).A bivvy bag in a bush isn't risking infecting anybody, even though overnighting away from home is currently against regulations. You could get around that by having a support car arrive to pick you up, take you home, then drive you back to the point where you stopped...So if that view of the bubble is accepted how on earth do we run Audax events with overnight stops?
I hate to break it to you but cycling very long distances need not always turn into a serial sleepover. Some randonneurs are perfectly capable of socially-distancing their way round a 600, in fact it's their default mode ;)
Surly it makes more sense to just carry a tent/bag with you, but them's the rules, for now.The little bar of soap is in the frame bag. The water is in the water bottle.
So that's the sleeping issues and the hygiene issues sorted. We'll have to wait a long time for events with 50 mats laid-out in a village hall or school, but so be-it. (there will probably be an intermediate period where the more extravagant riders on an X-600+ can book hotel rooms!)
And of course perms can be started pretty much ASAP, the board just need to show willing.
Only 2 hours sleeping on pbp. How fast were you?I must admit I am fairly new to audax with only 1 full season to my name; my only sleeping in a control was for about 2 hours in fougères on pbp last summer. Otherwise I have slept in hotels or a bivvy bag on the half dozen occasions overnight was involved.Yup, jobsa good'un. Or do this:This encapsulates the issue, its not the riding that is the issue, it is the stopping. You also become very unhygienic on a long ride. Where is the soap and water to wash your hands? I always carry hygienic hand wipes so I can clean my hands when needed (too much detail?).A bivvy bag in a bush isn't risking infecting anybody, even though overnighting away from home is currently against regulations. You could get around that by having a support car arrive to pick you up, take you home, then drive you back to the point where you stopped...So if that view of the bubble is accepted how on earth do we run Audax events with overnight stops?
I hate to break it to you but cycling very long distances need not always turn into a serial sleepover. Some randonneurs are perfectly capable of socially-distancing their way round a 600, in fact it's their default mode ;)
Surly it makes more sense to just carry a tent/bag with you, but them's the rules, for now.The little bar of soap is in the frame bag. The water is in the water bottle.
So that's the sleeping issues and the hygiene issues sorted. We'll have to wait a long time for events with 50 mats laid-out in a village hall or school, but so be-it. (there will probably be an intermediate period where the more extravagant riders on an X-600+ can book hotel rooms!)
And of course perms can be started pretty much ASAP, the board just need to show willing.
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Where is the soap and water to wash your hands?The little bar of soap is in the frame bag. The water is in the water bottle.
High5 makes terrible hand wash, believe me I tried it by mistake once. :P
It definitely looks like we should be able to restart DIYs in July in some form here with the forecast lifting of travel restrictions for leisure.
Wales may be an ongoing sticking point.
Rather nice e-mail recieved.
1st August for distances up to 200km as DIY/Perm unless there's a spanner thrown at the works.
Awards to restart at same time, championships still suspended though.
And 6 months grace to restart RRTYs in.
Amongst other things.
Sensible
Yep; all my perms will be open from that date :):thumbsup:
Rather nice e-mail recieved.
1st August for distances up to 200km as DIY/Perm unless there's a spanner thrown at the works.
Awards to restart at same time, championships still suspended though.
And 6 months grace to restart RRTYs in.
Yep; all my perms will be open from that date :)
This is rather my point. Considering long-distance cycling in terms of "where/how do I sleep" is rather bizarre.I suppose it is because the current rules with regard to long distance cycling in England are that you can cycle as far as you like as long as you return to your home at night. Speculation on how this might change is natural. Outside of England there is the added requirement to start and finish the ride locally.
Yep; all my perms will be open from that date :)
Great news :thumbsup: - will you be taking the same approach to GdS RtY claims as AUK is for other RtYs?
So AUK is looking to introduce perms up to 200km only (no calendar events) on the very same day (1 Aug.) as British Cycling is permitting sportives to be run with large bunches. Club rides of up to six riders are already permitted, which seems to be a fair analogue with perms.In Scotland and Wales as well?
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200618-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-announces-reintroduction-of-club-and-group-activity-0
No just England.So AUK is looking to introduce perms up to 200km only (no calendar events) on the very same day (1 Aug.) as British Cycling is permitting sportives to be run with large bunches. Club rides of up to six riders are already permitted, which seems to be a fair analogue with perms.In Scotland and Wales as well?
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200618-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-announces-reintroduction-of-club-and-group-activity-0
So AUK is looking to introduce perms up to 200km only (no calendar events) on the very same day (1 Aug.) as British Cycling is permitting sportives to be run with large bunches. Club rides of up to six riders are already permitted, which seems to be a fair analogue with perms.
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200618-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-announces-reintroduction-of-club-and-group-activity-0
BC are saying “Club activities and coaching sessions can resume today, providing they are delivered in line with Government guidance on group sizes and social distancing. “ i.e. today, 18th June.Yes, sorry I was meaning the references that were made to large breeze rides and sportives..
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They seem to be saying in the detail that from today, stage 3, multiple groups of 6 riders are allowed. The breeze rides are starting under stage 3 (which starts today) but because stage 3 has been brought forward nobody is ready (all the bookings are from 4th July). So in summary they have brought stage 3 forward from 4th July to today.BC are saying “Club activities and coaching sessions can resume today, providing they are delivered in line with Government guidance on group sizes and social distancing. “ i.e. today, 18th June.Yes, sorry I was meaning the references that were made to large breeze rides and sportives..
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No just England.So AUK is looking to introduce perms up to 200km only (no calendar events) on the very same day (1 Aug.) as British Cycling is permitting sportives to be run with large bunches. Club rides of up to six riders are already permitted, which seems to be a fair analogue with perms.In Scotland and Wales as well?
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200618-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-announces-reintroduction-of-club-and-group-activity-0
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I am avoiding meat processing plants on all my rides.No just England.So AUK is looking to introduce perms up to 200km only (no calendar events) on the very same day (1 Aug.) as British Cycling is permitting sportives to be run with large bunches. Club rides of up to six riders are already permitted, which seems to be a fair analogue with perms.In Scotland and Wales as well?
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200618-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-announces-reintroduction-of-club-and-group-activity-0
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Scottish Cycling saying they'll give an update on Monday.
Wales may be the sticking point.
Infections apparently up in Angelsey going by what's in the report about the chicken factory outbreak.
I am avoiding meat processing plants on all my rides.No just England.So AUK is looking to introduce perms up to 200km only (no calendar events) on the very same day (1 Aug.) as British Cycling is permitting sportives to be run with large bunches. Club rides of up to six riders are already permitted, which seems to be a fair analogue with perms.In Scotland and Wales as well?
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200618-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-announces-reintroduction-of-club-and-group-activity-0
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Scottish Cycling saying they'll give an update on Monday.
Wales may be the sticking point.
Infections apparently up in Angelsey going by what's in the report about the chicken factory outbreak.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/15/us-coronavirus-meat-packing-plants-food
Yep; all my perms will be open from that date :)
Great news :thumbsup: - will you be taking the same approach to GdS RtY claims as AUK is for other RtYs?
Yes :) although the actual GdS award for 2020 will still need to be completed by 31.12.20
Mid Sussex Hilly / Hillier looking unlikely as I've had no entries although the hall is pencilled it should it go ahead
Hm actually that's interesting because someone I know said they were restarting their training sessions as we went to "phase 1" here since it was compatible with him offering 1 socially distanced session a day.1:1 coaching was already allowed by BC
I Guess his capacity doubles in 12 minutes!
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Ah!Hm actually that's interesting because someone I know said they were restarting their training sessions as we went to "phase 1" here since it was compatible with him offering 1 socially distanced session a day.1:1 coaching was already allowed by BC
I Guess his capacity doubles in 12 minutes!
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Please see link to BBC news
If this happens next year there will have to be a very hard discussion about risk because we will not be able to afford the NHS as the economy and national debt will be in such a state if we do lock down again.
We will be able to afford the NHS. We might choose not to pay for it, but that would be a political choice.
This is the chart that explains it: national debt as % of GDP has risen recently but remains low by historical levels, and would still be within the post-war range were next year to see a second wave (which seems to be the base case for government scientists now).
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/UK_GDP.png)
What will be able to afford next year?
Looks like unrestricted travel in Wales from the 6th July, overnight stays from 13th July but only in self contained accommodation (ie self catering no shared bathroom)No just England.So AUK is looking to introduce perms up to 200km only (no calendar events) on the very same day (1 Aug.) as British Cycling is permitting sportives to be run with large bunches. Club rides of up to six riders are already permitted, which seems to be a fair analogue with perms.In Scotland and Wales as well?
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200618-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-announces-reintroduction-of-club-and-group-activity-0
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Scottish Cycling saying they'll give an update on Monday.
Wales may be the sticking point.
Infections apparently up in Angelsey going by what's in the report about the chicken factory outbreak.
This point came up before about, its not the traveling but the stopping that is the problem. Quite when we will be able to have crowded controls with shared loos, communal sleeping and eating I have no idea. The reason self catering is opening before hotels is because the accomodation will be cleaned between visits by staff in protective clothes. There is still no indication that I can see of general hotels will open and nothing on any of the chains about booking.Looks like unrestricted travel in Wales from the 6th July, overnight stays from 13th July but only in self contained accommodation (ie self catering no shared bathroom)No just England.So AUK is looking to introduce perms up to 200km only (no calendar events) on the very same day (1 Aug.) as British Cycling is permitting sportives to be run with large bunches. Club rides of up to six riders are already permitted, which seems to be a fair analogue with perms.In Scotland and Wales as well?
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200618-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-announces-reintroduction-of-club-and-group-activity-0
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Scottish Cycling saying they'll give an update on Monday.
Wales may be the sticking point.
Infections apparently up in Angelsey going by what's in the report about the chicken factory outbreak.
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Please see link to BBC news
If this happens next year there will have to be a very hard discussion about risk because we will not be able to afford the NHS as the economy and national debt will be in such a state if we do lock down again.
We will be able to afford the NHS. We might choose not to pay for it, but that would be a political choice.
This is the chart that explains it: national debt as % of GDP has risen recently but remains low by historical levels, and would still be within the post-war range were next year to see a second wave (which seems to be the base case for government scientists now).
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/UK_GDP.png)
BBC News - UK debt now larger than size of whole economy
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53104734
To compare debt to historic times like WW2 does not make sence to me. We are not out of this yet, we still have to pay for 3 months of ferloughing and we do not yet the impact on many businesses.
What will be able to afford next year?
BB
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Perhaps we will have to have audaxes without the communal sleeping and eating for some time, for example like x rated events. From my inbox most hotels seem to expect to be opening in England from the 4th July. With regard to the welsh “self contained definition” this appears to mean no shared toilet or dining facilities. I would have thought budget hotels like travelodge would fall into that category. Other non audax events with overnight stops that I have done have had a bag drop to a campsite for the overnight accommodation/food. Other sports seem to be finding solutions to the challenges presented to them.The challenges around accommodation and travel seem to be very easily solved by any UK citizen (even cyclists), but AUK seem to take the view that their naughty children - oh I'm sorry, I mean "members"- might still find a way to misbehave, and are acting in great fear of That Sort Of Thing.
On the organized overnighting front, SYHA seem to think my hiking club can make use of the Rent-a-Hostels we have booked despite having booked 16 beds in 2 8 bed rooms and almost everyone being from different houses, so they possibly have a plan that fits the social distancing bill.Sounds like they are assuming you are all one bubble. I would not tell them you are all from different houses.
On the organized overnighting front, SYHA seem to think my hiking club can make use of the Rent-a-Hostels we have booked despite having booked 16 beds in 2 8 bed rooms and almost everyone being from different houses, so they possibly have a plan that fits the social distancing bill.Sounds like they are assuming you are all one bubble. I would not tell them you are all from different houses.
This is what Randonneurs NL sent me today (apologies for the Google Translate but it mostly makes sense)
Good news about the traveling, but apart from audax hotels there is nowhere to stay. This is the primary reason why I found it so hard to understand why Lejog was not cancelled. How can you offer a 5 day ride with no offer of accomodation that complies with the law? Never mind been able to feed people in one place.
No it hasn't. Cancelled eoukx mean there had been communication from the organiser to the entrants stating it was off, rather t han leaving everyone in limbo, still committed to a ride that probably won't happen. Unable to cancel booking related to the event and having to continue to commit annual leave go ty hat week, because even though it probably won't happen, it still might happen.This is what Randonneurs NL sent me today (apologies for the Google Translate but it mostly makes sense)
Quite good that - one of the best 'official pronouncements' I've seen.Good news about the traveling, but apart from audax hotels there is nowhere to stay. This is the primary reason why I found it so hard to understand why Lejog was not cancelled. How can you offer a 5 day ride with no offer of accomodation that complies with the law? Never mind been able to feed people in one place.
It's been cancelled for a while.
LeJog (the July event) hs not been enterable since mid-March and will remain not enterable. Yes it could still run for entrants from before that date but AUK have clearly stated they won't validate those July rides (though I suppose there is still time for that to change).
So I suppose it's right to say LeJog isn't cancelled because, well, things could change. But in reality it has been cancelled for the last 3 months.
https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/shop/official-and-only-genuine-radar-key
Is there any guidance on when we can expect to see public toilets opening?
I wasn't aware being female was a disability.
Not sure I'd want to actually use the toilets though.
Not sure I'd want to actually use the toilets though.
If a guest-presents themselves with symptoms of COVID-19 in either a private room or shared dormitory or is asymptomatic but declares the need to self-isolate, they should be advised to self-isolate according to current government guidance.
This will apply to all guests that were present in the room.
Raymond Martin, managing director of the British Toilet Association (BTA), said there would need to be a "complete rethink" of public toilets for the post-Covid age.
It could ultimately spell the end of the urinal, he says, as operators switch to individual cubicles with wash basins and baby changing facilities inside them. Work is underway on a “dig your own pit loo” guide.
Not sure I'd want to actually use the toilets though.
Bogs seem to be one the largest areas of concern for transmission; although there are plenty of other reasons for avoiding public lavvies.
... and there are often compelling reasons to hold your breathNot sure I'd want to actually use the toilets though.
Bogs seem to be one the largest areas of concern for transmission; although there are plenty of other reasons for avoiding public lavvies.
Is this legitimate though? surely everyone wasbes their hands before leaving and doesn't touch their face while in there.
People tend not to be in close proximity in the toilets and the response in denying access to hand washing facilities which is much better than using alcohol gel anyway.
It could ultimately spell the end of the urinal, he says, as operators switch to individual cubicles with wash basins and baby changing facilities inside them. Work is underway on a “dig your own pit loo” guide.
Quote from Link:https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/shop/official-and-only-genuine-radar-key
Is there any guidance on when we can expect to see public toilets opening?
this any good for you?
Is this legitimate though? surely everyone wasbes their hands before leaving and doesn't touch their face while in there.
I would have thought a urinal (Brit-style, ie all ranged along one wall - as opposed to classic French-style, facing each other in a circle) was one of the most covid-safe of institutions. No touching of anything, to speak of.
Hotels seem fine, even the Scottish ones are taking bookings. They are all offering free date change even on the £29 a night rate so if things need to get postponed I can.If the 5 days refers to the Audax standard for LeJoG you need 4 nights for the journey and somewhere at the end. Probably Sea View Hotel. Then decide if you want to cycle back to Inverness or catch the train.
Edit: though I now realise registering 7x200 in 5 days won’t work as the sleeping comes in chunks.
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"When circumstances change, I change my decision."
I hope that the Audax UK board will revise forwards (to 18 July) the resumption date for encouraging and validating rides, given the revision to the guidelines in England announced just now (Tuesday 23 June). We can surely rely on the prudence and self-discipline of riders to minimise the risk to themselves and others. Any risk to the reputation of Audax UK and to cycling in general is surely illusory.
The various home nations will be most likely to make similar judgements and take similar decisions in the next fortnight so the argument that Audax UK has to wait, wait, wait for all home nations to align before resuming is surely weakened. Of course local laws and guidelines varied with time/date would remain to be adhered to.
Individuals will have different approaches to the minimal risk that outdoor activity - specifically long distance cycling - incurs (to themselves and others). And they will choose to ride: at all, short distances, long (day) distances, alone, in pairs, in groups of 'x' - or not: individual decision.
Given Audax UK's objective of encouraging long distance riding, it does not need to apply additional, cautious restrictions on such activity.
If the 5 days refers to the Audax standard for LeJoG you need 4 nights for the journey and somewhere at the end. Probably Sea View Hotel. Then decide if you want to cycle back to Inverness or catch the train.
I have booked 4 nights en route. My accommodation at the end is back in Wick. As I am going when I would have been doing Andy’s one it is too early for registering any of it.Hotels seem fine, even the Scottish ones are taking bookings. They are all offering free date change even on the £29 a night rate so if things need to get postponed I can.If the 5 days refers to the Audax standard for LeJoG you need 4 nights for the journey and somewhere at the end. Probably Sea View Hotel. Then decide if you want to cycle back to Inverness or catch the train.
Edit: though I now realise registering 7x200 in 5 days won’t work as the sleeping comes in chunks.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-53217095 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-53217095)I appreciate you keep saying something similar and I keep repeating my response, if the issue is the sign on or finishing in a village hall afterwards, which is currently illegal, then organise the event without this. If it is impossible to have online or outdoor sign in then cancel that event, not all events. This is the approach in NL. This is all irrelevant as auk have decided no calendar events for the time being.
For the fragility of the current situation and how much on a knife edge we are.
So for an organised ride we will organise for people to travel across the country (and increase their contacts) and sign on in a hall (and increase the contacts) then control in various locations (if not changed these will be local shops as cafes not open, and increase their contacts), then return to the hall and have more contact.
I am not happy about the situation, but we are in no position to sanction oreganised events.
BB
Well this buggers up one of my DIY ideasKyle Bridge not too far away :thumbsup:The difference is just the difference between the Shiel Bridge split?
https://twitter.com/FerrytoSkye/status/1277563163504979970
Note the response from the local tourist castle...
Their facebook post responses has further subtext to their decision.
But then it sounds like my trip to the Ratagan YH won't be taking place anyway.
Well this buggers up one of my DIY ideasKyle Bridge not too far away :thumbsup:The difference is just the difference between the Shiel Bridge split?
https://twitter.com/FerrytoSkye/status/1277563163504979970
Note the response from the local tourist castle...
Their facebook post responses has further subtext to their decision.
But then it sounds like my trip to the Ratagan YH won't be taking place anyway.
BB
Also SKAT have reversed their position and now want tourists kept out at all costs.
Also SKAT have reversed their position and now want tourists kept out at all costs.
I assume you mean Skye not SKAT? Do you have a source for the "tourists kept out" position?
Hostels look like they are booking only private rooms and no shared accommodation.
:'(
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-53217095 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-53217095)
For the fragility of the current situation and how much on a knife edge we are.
So for an organised ride we will organise for people to travel across the country (and increase their contacts) and sign on in a hall (and increase the contacts) then control in various locations (if not changed these will be local shops as cafes not open, and increase their contacts), then return to the hall and have more contact.
I am not happy about the situation, but we are in no position to sanction oreganised events.
BB
...I don't think I understand your reasoning here (but we could well be at cross-porpoises);
So we're stuck with no more than the permitted group size doing any one event at any one time.
Other forms of cycling and other sports find it possible to work with those limitations but it's far from ideal for long distance cycling, highlights Auks need to be recognised for lobbying with the govs (I. E. Be the NGB)
CTT are running 90-rider events. Audax perms don't require riders to exceed the 6-person limit.
So why can't (for example) 7 riders do the same perm on the same day in Englandshire?
CTT are running 90-rider events. Audax perms don't require riders to exceed the 6-person limit.
So why can't (for example) 7 riders do the same perm on the same day in Englandshire?
AUK don’t need to make an additional rule. It is illegal and that is enough. AUK can already refuse to validate brevets that are ridden illegally.
Staggered starts for a brevet is much the same as a TT start.
The rest of your comment needs some more clarification. The police are more likely to disperse excessively large groups of cyclists than charge them, unless there are contributing factors? Insurance is likely to try to find reasons not to provide coverage? Well yes but cycling clubs are already sending out multiple socially distanced groups in a single day without issues.
Apparently AUKs riding the same loop in different directions are counted collectively, rather than considered different routes. Any idea why?
Apparently AUKs riding the same loop in different directions are counted collectively, rather than considered different routes. Any idea why?
The 6 rider limit thing is IMHO daft but I can live with it.
The 6 rider limit thing is IMHO daft but I can live with it.
It amy be daft, but if it's the only way AUK can comply with the law then there's a common saying that fits the situation...
6 riders together at any one time =/= 6 riders on an event.The 6 rider limit thing is IMHO daft but I can live with it.
It amy be daft, but if it's the only way AUK can comply with the law then there's a common saying that fits the situation...
I really do try to not get involved with AUK politics but, as I’ve said before, other branches of cycle sport are working hard towards getting people back out and AUK are actively finding ways to prevent it.
I really do try to not get involved with AUK politics but, as I’ve said before, other branches of cycle sport are working hard towards getting people back out and AUK are actively finding ways to prevent it.
Rob, if you could see the huge amount of work that the board, and in particular Graeme Provan our General Secretary, is doing behind the scenes to ensure we can restart, you might take a different view.
Martin
From the AUK entry form: I understand that during the event I am on a private excursion on the public highway and that I am responsible for my
own conduct. I agree to abide by Audax UK Regulations for this ride.
It's a private excursion, just a bike ride and I hope we're all responsible riders. Auk regs are about validation of the distance ridden and not policing rider behaviour. Club regulations are different - my club has chucked a rider out for loutish riding and bad-mouthing other members.
I can live with a few limits for now: capping numbers (though 6 seems a bit mean), no calendar rides, small groups on the road (what's new?) and so on. We're mostly out there riding lots anyway, especially as overnight stops are permitted now.
...Haha!
Where CTT have already done that thinking and drafted rules for how people will stay apart. AUK are only just starting to maybe think about thinking about it. That's the complaint you should be making.
Quite right. And we all have a right to challenge restrictions being put on us by persons who think they know best, without discussion. We elected these people to facilitate cycling long distances - not to make up rules to stop us doing so.I really do try to not get involved with AUK politics but, as I’ve said before, other branches of cycle sport are working hard towards getting people back out and AUK are actively finding ways to prevent it.
Rob, if you could see the huge amount of work that the board, and in particular Graeme Provan our General Secretary, is doing behind the scenes to ensure we can restart, you might take a different view.
Martin
I was at a social with Graeme for a few hours just over a week ago. We didn’t discuss anything about this subject, though.
ETA - Just because someone is working really hard does not mean I have to agree with their conclusions. As an AUK member of nearly 28 years I have a right to challenge what is being presented.
As I've been saying for several months, this is no different to rides pre-pandemic, and the many bad/silly things that riders might do while AUK is not holding their hands.
In that scenario the insurance was invalid and they broke the law, no pay out and potential immediate cancellation of AUKs insurance with all that entails.
If they hadn't crashed AUK would have been none the wiser.
I feel the issue could be resolved by cyclists having number plates, paying road tax and staying on cycle paths.;D
You need to log in via the new site:
https://audax.uk/choose-a-ride/do-it-yourself-diy-events/
As I've been saying for several months, this is no different to rides pre-pandemic, and the many bad/silly things that riders might do while AUK is not holding their hands.
In that scenario the insurance was invalid and they broke the law, no pay out and potential immediate cancellation of AUKs insurance with all that entails.
If they hadn't crashed AUK would have been none the wiser.
Do you have an answer yet?
You need to log in via the new site:Interestingly I can also select 300km for diy (but no longer distances).
https://audax.uk/choose-a-ride/do-it-yourself-diy-events/
As I've been saying for several months, this is no different to rides pre-pandemic, and the many bad/silly things that riders might do while AUK is not holding their hands.
In that scenario the insurance was invalid and they broke the law, no pay out and potential immediate cancellation of AUKs insurance with all that entails.
If they hadn't crashed AUK would have been none the wiser.
Do you have an answer yet?
Because if complaints are made by the public about cyclists taking part in cycling events at this time, the government will contact British Cycling (as NGB) and ask "WTF is going on here"
Every time there's hints of an issue with the football restart up here, Jason Leech is quoted as saying "We've looked at what they're doing and I don't see a problem at this time"
That translates to, "What we've agreed with the SFA is being adhered to, if they were not doing so Professional football is off"
It would also kiss AUKs wish to be NGB for long distance cycling and therefore no longer hamstrung by British Cycling's narrow UCI restricted image of cycling goodbye if the cyclists they represent were to be taking the piss and pissing people off at a time of heightened sensitivities.
Also the legal situation is upside down, we're only allowed to do things that the Coronavirus Act allows, and thanks to the (limited) work British Cycling have done, right now it's allowing cycling in small groups. It's not actually allowing any events (because BC don't give a toss about Audax, and DIYs and Perms can be presented as group rides within the bounds of the rules agreed).
I Agree with the people that say there are other ways it could be done to ensure BC's agreements with the governments aren't breached while allowing greater participation.
BC have been running beginners rides for up to a 100 setting of in groups of 6 since 4th July. By their rules it was allowed from 18th June, they just were not ready. They have also said club runs are fine as long as you break up into 6s. AUKs 6 people per 200km seems an unreasonable interpretation of the rules. There is absolutely nothing in BC or govt guidance about restricting the length of rides. If there is a complaint to govt that people are cycling then the govt response will be to take credit saying that the repair voucher scheme is working.As I've been saying for several months, this is no different to rides pre-pandemic, and the many bad/silly things that riders might do while AUK is not holding their hands.
In that scenario the insurance was invalid and they broke the law, no pay out and potential immediate cancellation of AUKs insurance with all that entails.
If they hadn't crashed AUK would have been none the wiser.
Do you have an answer yet?
Because if complaints are made by the public about cyclists taking part in cycling events at this time, the government will contact British Cycling (as NGB) and ask "WTF is going on here"
Every time there's hints of an issue with the football restart up here, Jason Leech is quoted as saying "We've looked at what they're doing and I don't see a problem at this time"
That translates to, "What we've agreed with the SFA is being adhered to, if they were not doing so Professional football is off"
It would also kiss AUKs wish to be NGB for long distance cycling and therefore no longer hamstrung by British Cycling's narrow UCI restricted image of cycling goodbye if the cyclists they represent were to be taking the piss and pissing people off at a time of heightened sensitivities.
Also the legal situation is upside down, we're only allowed to do things that the Coronavirus Act allows, and thanks to the (limited) work British Cycling have done, right now it's allowing cycling in small groups. It's not actually allowing any events (because BC don't give a toss about Audax, and DIYs and Perms can be presented as group rides within the bounds of the rules agreed).
I Agree with the people that say there are other ways it could be done to ensure BC's agreements with the governments aren't breached while allowing greater participation.
Also the legal situation is upside down, we're only allowed to do things that the Coronavirus Act allows,I don’t think this is the case anymore, certainly in England. The original coronavirus act said you must not leave your house apart from for a limited set of reasons. This was indeed unusual in law in that instead of forbidding specific things it banned everything and listed what you could do. The current act works in the normal way, listing the things that are prohibited- such as going to casinos and gathering in groups of more than 6.
AUK are actively finding ways to prevent it.
AUK are actively finding ways to prevent it.
Anyway, you can ride all you like, AUK are only saying that they wouldn't validate your attempts.
AUK are actively finding ways to prevent it.
Anyway, you can ride all you like, AUK are only saying that they wouldn't validate your attempts.
Because validation of the ride would contribute to the spread of the virus ?
Since the announcement many weeks ago now that exercise could be unlimited in duration I have been riding long distances. I have been encouraging other cyclists to cycle longer distances. I am however no longer encouraging them to join AUK as there seems little point.
I'd say that's pretty close to discouraging riding, even if they aren't exactly preventing it! Seems a long way from the mission statement of "promoting long distance cycling". Seems like "you can ride a long way, but not as part of an AUK event."AUK are actively finding ways to prevent it.
What utter nonsense. If anything AUK have been trying hard to get us back riding again while fulfilling the changing requirements from all the constituent governments that make up the "UK" bit of "Audax UK" - and as we see up north those requirements can change overnight.
Anyway, you can ride all you like, AUK are only saying that they wouldn't validate your attempts.
There doesn't seem to be a limit on the number of 200 Perms you can ride, or on the length of each one. Sounds as if they might be DIYs, although based on your Perms.
(I'm ashamed to be uncertain about the rules around nights away.)
Not a very useful post... but a chance to express admiration of ACME (amongst other excellent Audax Regions of course!)
My own cautious approach is perhaps influenced by living in Greater Manchester, where Covid rates are apparently quite high and I am not allowed to visit my family, not even in the garden. I'm very apprehensive of going out of the house at all, I worry about going to the local Co-op for the weekly shop, and there's no way I'd go to a pub or cafe. It's beginning to feel a bit agoraphobic. I have no argument with AUKs current policy.
That said, I'm out for a 100km Perm over the weekend. I intend to have nothing to do with anyone at all.
My own cautious approach is perhaps influenced by living in Greater Manchester, where Covid rates are apparently quite high and I am not allowed to visit my family, not even in the garden. I'm very apprehensive of going out of the house at all, I worry about going to the local Co-op for the weekly shop, and there's no way I'd go to a pub or cafe. It's beginning to feel a bit agoraphobic. I have no argument with AUKs current policy.
That said, I'm out for a 100km Perm over the weekend. I intend to have nothing to do with anyone at all.
You're in Oldham aren't you? The current infection rate there is 66.6 per 100,000 people (https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/greater-manchesters-very-latest-coronavirus-18736404). If the mortality/infection ratio is still 1%, that's 0.66 deaths per 100k people per week.
About 5 people die per day on British roads That's 3 deaths per 100,000 people per year, or 0.06 per week. Then again, you'll be significantly more at risk than most people, due to the number of miles you do on a bicycle, which is one of the riskier forms of transport out there. The risks are really in the same ballpark, and if you're worried about C19, you should be equally worried about audax full stop.
My own cautious approach is perhaps influenced by living in Greater Manchester, where Covid rates are apparently quite high and I am not allowed to visit my family, not even in the garden. I'm very apprehensive of going out of the house at all, I worry about going to the local Co-op for the weekly shop, and there's no way I'd go to a pub or cafe. It's beginning to feel a bit agoraphobic. I have no argument with AUKs current policy.
That said, I'm out for a 100km Perm over the weekend. I intend to have nothing to do with anyone at all.
You're in Oldham aren't you? The current infection rate there is 66.6 per 100,000 people (https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/greater-manchesters-very-latest-coronavirus-18736404). If the mortality/infection ratio is still 1%, that's 0.66 deaths per 100k people per week.
About 5 people die per day on British roads That's 3 deaths per 100,000 people per year, or 0.06 per week. Then again, you'll be significantly more at risk than most people, due to the number of miles you do on a bicycle, which is one of the riskier forms of transport out there. The risks are really in the same ballpark, and if you're worried about C19, you should be equally worried about audax full stop.
Riding a bicycle doesn't make three other people you meet ride a bicycle.
My own cautious approach is perhaps influenced by living in Greater Manchester, where Covid rates are apparently quite high and I am not allowed to visit my family, not even in the garden. I'm very apprehensive of going out of the house at all, I worry about going to the local Co-op for the weekly shop, and there's no way I'd go to a pub or cafe. It's beginning to feel a bit agoraphobic. I have no argument with AUKs current policy.
That said, I'm out for a 100km Perm over the weekend. I intend to have nothing to do with anyone at all.
You're in Oldham aren't you? The current infection rate there is 66.6 per 100,000 people (https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/greater-manchesters-very-latest-coronavirus-18736404). If the mortality/infection ratio is still 1%, that's 0.66 deaths per 100k people per week.
About 5 people die per day on British roads That's 3 deaths per 100,000 people per year, or 0.06 per week. Then again, you'll be significantly more at risk than most people, due to the number of miles you do on a bicycle, which is one of the riskier forms of transport out there. The risks are really in the same ballpark, and if you're worried about C19, you should be equally worried about audax full stop.
Riding a bicycle doesn't make three other people you meet ride a bicycle.
If you drive to an event though, you risk running someone over. All those parcels you ordered on Amazon and Wiggle while in lockdown? Any of the delivery trucks involved in their manufacture and supply risk running someone down too - and the victim wouldn't have died if you hadn't ordered that new stem.
At what point do you cease to be responsible for your own tiny contribution to the background level of risk?
Kalka you are confusing two different things, this has been common in a lot of discussions. The first is random change probability and this you have correctly attributed to the incidence of road accidents. The second causal chance that is increased with contact and the difference is that you 'cause' an increase in infections by having an incident, in random chance you do not increase the chance of other people having an accident because you have had one. It is this factor that made the spread exponential and this is highly dangerous and what happened at the start of the outbreak. So in short you are correct in your analysis of the chance of getting C-19 today if you went out, but the impact would go on for weeks and possibly cause many other cases.My own cautious approach is perhaps influenced by living in Greater Manchester, where Covid rates are apparently quite high and I am not allowed to visit my family, not even in the garden. I'm very apprehensive of going out of the house at all, I worry about going to the local Co-op for the weekly shop, and there's no way I'd go to a pub or cafe. It's beginning to feel a bit agoraphobic. I have no argument with AUKs current policy.
That said, I'm out for a 100km Perm over the weekend. I intend to have nothing to do with anyone at all.
You're in Oldham aren't you? The current infection rate there is 66.6 per 100,000 people (https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/greater-manchesters-very-latest-coronavirus-18736404). If the mortality/infection ratio is still 1%, that's 0.66 deaths per 100k people per week.
About 5 people die per day on British roads That's 3 deaths per 100,000 people per year, or 0.06 per week. Then again, you'll be significantly more at risk than most people, due to the number of miles you do on a bicycle, which is one of the riskier forms of transport out there. The risks are really in the same ballpark, and if you're worried about C19, you should be equally worried about audax full stop.
Kalka you are confusing two different things, this has been common in a lot of discussions. The first is random change probability and this you have correctly attributed to the incidence of road accidents. The second causal chance that is increased with contact and the difference is that you 'cause' an increase in infections by having an incident, in random chance you do not increase the chance of other people having an accident because you have had one. It is this factor that made the spread exponential and this is highly dangerous and what happened at the start of the outbreak. So in short you are correct in your analysis of the chance of getting C-19 today if you went out, but the impact would go on for weeks and possibly cause many other cases.My own cautious approach is perhaps influenced by living in Greater Manchester, where Covid rates are apparently quite high and I am not allowed to visit my family, not even in the garden. I'm very apprehensive of going out of the house at all, I worry about going to the local Co-op for the weekly shop, and there's no way I'd go to a pub or cafe. It's beginning to feel a bit agoraphobic. I have no argument with AUKs current policy.
That said, I'm out for a 100km Perm over the weekend. I intend to have nothing to do with anyone at all.
You're in Oldham aren't you? The current infection rate there is 66.6 per 100,000 people (https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/greater-manchesters-very-latest-coronavirus-18736404). If the mortality/infection ratio is still 1%, that's 0.66 deaths per 100k people per week.
About 5 people die per day on British roads That's 3 deaths per 100,000 people per year, or 0.06 per week. Then again, you'll be significantly more at risk than most people, due to the number of miles you do on a bicycle, which is one of the riskier forms of transport out there. The risks are really in the same ballpark, and if you're worried about C19, you should be equally worried about audax full stop.
By the way they think the outbreak in NY was caused by a single super sreader who they think infected as many as 200 people in a single day. Then bang thousands have and spread the virus. Now I am not saying that cycling alone on roads is a risk, but we all stop and have traveled from out locality and the risk is not just what happens on the day.....
BB
The logic of "If I do X, bad thing Y might happen to person Z" only goes so far. At some point, person Z has to suck it up as the cost of living - otherwise I'd just have to kill myself now so I never risk breathing bad air in your face.
Do you think long-distance cyclists will have an R-number of 3 once we're allowed to ride as much as we like under AUK regs?My own cautious approach is perhaps influenced by living in Greater Manchester, where Covid rates are apparently quite high and I am not allowed to visit my family, not even in the garden. I'm very apprehensive of going out of the house at all, I worry about going to the local Co-op for the weekly shop, and there's no way I'd go to a pub or cafe. It's beginning to feel a bit agoraphobic. I have no argument with AUKs current policy.
That said, I'm out for a 100km Perm over the weekend. I intend to have nothing to do with anyone at all.
You're in Oldham aren't you? The current infection rate there is 66.6 per 100,000 people (https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/greater-manchesters-very-latest-coronavirus-18736404). If the mortality/infection ratio is still 1%, that's 0.66 deaths per 100k people per week.
About 5 people die per day on British roads That's 3 deaths per 100,000 people per year, or 0.06 per week. Then again, you'll be significantly more at risk than most people, due to the number of miles you do on a bicycle, which is one of the riskier forms of transport out there. The risks are really in the same ballpark, and if you're worried about C19, you should be equally worried about audax full stop.
Riding a bicycle doesn't make three other people you meet ride a bicycle.
The logic of "If I do X, bad thing Y might happen to person Z" only goes so far. At some point, person Z has to suck it up as the cost of living - otherwise I'd just have to kill myself now so I never risk breathing bad air in your face.
I'm applying the same finger in the air resining you are.Interesting you say that ...
The idea of not reusing masks after taking them off until you wash them off is similar to not reusing hankies. By wearing the mask you have hopefully trapped all the nasties on the inside. Once it has been in your pocket there maybe nasties all over including the outside so the next time you put it on it is not effective. Folding it in half to keep the inside inside would help a little.It's an idea, except hankies are deliberately used to blow/wipe one's nose: not breath through. And a face covering's purpose is to reduce markedly the volume of any putative viral load going out and is absolutely not designed to prevent "nasties" being breathed in, aiui. And if one puts a mask or buff back on again, then it's the wearer's "nasties" on the inside, and they (the bugs) will be in happy home territory, if indeed there are any "nasties" around to start with. At the end of the ride: wash as normal.
There is no issue travelling non locally to an area of similar infection level. There seems to be a perception that it is like spreading flu to the aztecs (or was it mayans). I don’t believe there is anywhere on mainland Britain that has avoided covid and the infection rate is pretty constant bar from a few areas where it is higher.The testing lags the cases by about 2 weeks. So you do not know the risk of traveling until later. Who would have thought last week that travelling to Aberdeen would have been an issue. So in short if we all keep to the social distancing rules and there is no rise in infections there is no added risk in travelling, but you do know the travelling risk until later. By the way the way the flu (or smallpox) spread in populations that had no immunity to those viruses is exactly the same as happened at the start of the infections. The main advantage that we had is that we had some understanding of how these things spread.
You should avoid travelling to those areas because you are more likely to catch covid because more people have it. You should avoid travelling from those areas as you are more likely to have it and spread it.
When you stick it in your pocket you will spread your nasties all over it so they won’t be contained just on the inside. When you put it back on it has your nasties on inside and outside, which you then share around. Hence the suggestion that once used you seal away until you wash it.The idea of not reusing masks after taking them off until you wash them off is similar to not reusing hankies. By wearing the mask you have hopefully trapped all the nasties on the inside. Once it has been in your pocket there maybe nasties all over including the outside so the next time you put it on it is not effective. Folding it in half to keep the inside inside would help a little.It's an idea, except hankies are deliberately used to blow/wipe one's nose: not breath through. And a face covering's purpose is to reduce markedly the volume of any putative viral load going out and is absolutely not designed to prevent "nasties" being breathed in, aiui. And if one puts a mask or buff back on again, then it's the wearer's "nasties" on the inside, and they (the bugs) will be in happy home territory, if indeed there are any "nasties" around to start with. At the end of the ride: wash as normal.
We went through a phase (in the spring) of arguing against masks on the basis that people didn't know how to take them off with professional medical staff correctness (or indeed NBC respirator drill accuracy). But since the wearer is either infectious/ive or not it doesn't seem to matter, in practice. In a hospital, "nasties" may be all around, so it makes absolute sense to use, remove with care, and dispose of safely. But going into shops?
I do think, based on observation this month, that mask wearing indoors (eg shops) gives people a false sense of security and therefore they pay less attention to 'social distancing': bit like wearing a helmet may make riders take more risk 'cos they're protected.
My daughters test came back (negative) in 5 hours. Last week travelling to Aberdeen wasn’t an issue. When a rise in cases is detected you impose a local lock down so that they stop increasing.There is no issue travelling non locally to an area of similar infection level. There seems to be a perception that it is like spreading flu to the aztecs (or was it mayans). I don’t believe there is anywhere on mainland Britain that has avoided covid and the infection rate is pretty constant bar from a few areas where it is higher.The testing lags the cases by about 2 weeks. So you do not know the risk of traveling until later. Who would have thought last week that travelling to Aberdeen would have been an issue. So in short if we all keep to the social distancing rules and there is no rise in infections there is no added risk in travelling, but you do know the travelling risk until later. By the way the way the flu (or smallpox) spread in populations that had no immunity to those viruses is exactly the same as happened at the start of the infections. The main advantage that we had is that we had some understanding of how these things spread.
You should avoid travelling to those areas because you are more likely to catch covid because more people have it. You should avoid travelling from those areas as you are more likely to have it and spread it.
BB
I'm applying the same finger in the air resining you are.Interesting you say that ...
I've been following Gov guidance, the laws that apply to us, the statements from qualified scientists, and the guidance from British Cycling.
All of which says that riding long distances (even in small groups) is perfectly reasonable. If I stop at 3 pubs on Mon-Wed, the government will subsidise me by £30 :thumbsup:
So explain why you want my Audax rides constrained.I'm applying the same finger in the air resining you are.Interesting you say that ...
I've been following Gov guidance, the laws that apply to us, the statements from qualified scientists, and the guidance from British Cycling.
All of which says that riding long distances (even in small groups) is perfectly reasonable. If I stop at 3 pubs on Mon-Wed, the government will subsidise me by £30 :thumbsup:
Long distance riding is allowable. The thread is about Audax. Go and do long distance rideswitihin the guidelines.
So explain why you want my Audax rides constrained.I'm applying the same finger in the air resining you are.Interesting you say that ...
I've been following Gov guidance, the laws that apply to us, the statements from qualified scientists, and the guidance from British Cycling.
All of which says that riding long distances (even in small groups) is perfectly reasonable. If I stop at 3 pubs on Mon-Wed, the government will subsidise me by £30 :thumbsup:
Long distance riding is allowable. The thread is about Audax. Go and do long distance rideswitihin the guidelines.
What is the advantage to AUK and to society in general of not validating solo and small group perms >200km? Please consider those other activities that are being actively encouraged during this time..
I enjoyed watching Milan-San Remo yesterday, all 305 kms of it, 150 riding together with inches separating them, thousands of spectators watching on at the roadside, where's my Audax ?Have both randoneuring and audax restarted in Italy? Suppose you could go there and work to their rules.
Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?
Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?
Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?
Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?
I look forward to reading your proposal for shutting down Audax UK as a clearly fraudulent enterprise.
And its cousins around the world.
And almost all other sporting awards bodies.
Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?
Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?For some it might encourage them to ride when otherwise they wouldn’t. There were close to 400 booked to do the lejog audax and perhaps 3 or 4 actually did it unvalidated.
What is the advantage to AUK and to society in general of not validating solo and small group perms >200km? Please consider those other activities that are being actively encouraged during this time..
This ^
I felt that AUK were taking a cautious but logical approach up to 1 August (and came in for some unfair stick imho) but I dont think anybody can tell us what has to change now in order for perms over 200km to resume, unless AUK believe that in allowing a resumption at such distances there is a risk that AUK members will breach local regulations / the law. Of course as mattc among others has pointed out that risk existed & was accepted pre Covid.
Self interest alert.....
If i knew that a validated 300/400/600 wasnt going to be possible by 30-09-20 Id make a plan to ride those distances just as bike rides, but if hanging on a bit meant those distances could be validated Id prefer that.
However with 7 weekends left until the end of the season, doing both isnt going to be possible or practical.
Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?
It’s more a benefit to audax UK. The more people ride long distance without validation, the less they will care about it (validation). It may lead the situation in France where for many riders, brevets just become an activity every four years to qualify for PBP etc.
Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?
I’m not saying anything useful, let alone logical or reasonable. :thumbsup:FTFY
Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?It doesn't matter - people want it, and it's one of AuK's core activities.
Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?It doesn't matter - people want it, and it's one of AuK's core activities.
Are you sure you're in the right club?
I thought it was quite clear.Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?
I look forward to reading your proposal for shutting down Audax UK as a clearly fraudulent enterprise.
And its cousins around the world.
And almost all other sporting awards bodies.
What are you going on about it?
People can still ride their bikes, 200, 300k and beyond yet despite this people are still having ago at AUK when there is nothing stopping them going out on their bike and riding a distance. Hence me asking the question if there is any tangible benefit to getting a ride validated.
Accepting that there's some point to validation is surely the sine qua non of having an organisation in the first place? If you just want to go out and ride your bike freestyle, there really is no point to AUK or any other governing body.
You keep saying validation is of negligible benefit, but then state you are not questioning the role of AUK. What is the role if not to promote and recognise the completion of long distance bike rides.Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?It doesn't matter - people want it, and it's one of AuK's core activities.
Are you sure you're in the right club?
I'm not questioning AUK or their role. I'm questioning the thinking behind people's mindset when it comes to riding a bike and the need for it to be validated.
Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?Being 4 years into a brevet 250 attempt i'd rather not throw 4 years away and start again from zero, or have a completely unreasonable target of points in year 6.
You keep saying validation is of negligible benefit, but then state you are not questioning the role of AUK. What is the role if not to promote and recognise the completion of long distance bike rides.Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?It doesn't matter - people want it, and it's one of AuK's core activities.
Are you sure you're in the right club?
I'm not questioning AUK or their role. I'm questioning the thinking behind people's mindset when it comes to riding a bike and the need for it to be validated.
Others in this place have suggested they would be unhappy with leniency on time frames suggesting either the pandemic should have been planned for, or that it should be considered as similar to bad weather in the winter.
I thought it was quite clear.Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?
I look forward to reading your proposal for shutting down Audax UK as a clearly fraudulent enterprise.
And its cousins around the world.
And almost all other sporting awards bodies.
What are you going on about it?
People can still ride their bikes, 200, 300k and beyond yet despite this people are still having ago at AUK when there is nothing stopping them going out on their bike and riding a distance. Hence me asking the question if there is any tangible benefit to getting a ride validated.
1) people can do these rides and there is no benefit in validation
2) therefore audax uk serves no importance
I went out of a 100 mile ride today, in other times it would have been 200km, but it is quite clear to me that audax uk does not wish to validate rides, therefore why spend the extra 90 minutes riding on the heat?
At a time when the uk government had been actively encouraging people to holiday in the UK and to use cafes and restaurants to save peoples jobs and businesses, audax uk still takes the position that events over 200km carry an unacceptable risk. I'm not sure what that risk is.
Further they seem to have the opinion that we are all naughty school children who will form up into groups larger than 6 if we are not actively prevented from being on the same 200km course as each other.
As others have said, does auk wish to promote long distance cycling, or does auk wish to be a body for validating pbp qualifying rides once every four years? Because the longer the mana of "you can still do these rides, there is no need for validation" is repeated the more people may come to the conclusion that rides do not need to be validated and consider what benefit they get from audax uk.
I would like to complete an sr series this year, I think I'd rather do it sooner than later, but the potential for valudation of rides in september incentives later, however without that riding on days with more daylight would be preferable.
So in the context of there being no reason to validate rides and we should all just enjoy riding without validation and stop complaining. Is the purpose of continued membership solely not to lose a place on lel, whenever it happens?
It has been clear for some time now that conditions in the country are not changing, ither than a few local outbreaks being identified and local precautions ramped up accordingly.
So what can we imagine being the trigger for a change in approach from the governing body?
Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?
It’s more a benefit to audax UK. The more people ride long distance without validation, the less they will care about it (validation). It may lead the situation in France where for many riders, brevets just become an activity every four years to qualify for PBP etc.
There's an expensive IT refresh to pay for that covers all of the ahem... "wanky pish"* AUK do that ACP don't, surely that approach would result in AUKs collapse...
* I hesitated to use that phrase that I've become accustomed to use for extra stuff that isn't core to the purpose, but well... it is isn't it!
Wanting some recognition or validation for activities is a pretty common approach e.g. “If it isn’t on Strava, it didn’t happen!”It's a form of Gamification, the award at the end of it is encouragement to do it in the first place.
LMT, other countries are also experiencing this pandemic and have continued or resumed safely riding and validating brevets, as local laws allow. The UK’s laws allow long distance bike rides to occur right now. Why shouldn’t AUK validate such lawful rides?
I have been doing exactly that for quite a few weeks now. Do you argue a point just for the sake of it or do you actually believe it?
I’m not saying anything useful, let alone logical or reasonable. :thumbsup:FTFY
Thanks, question answered.
I've just made my first foray for a while onto the AUK Forum...
Reasonably positive sounding update from Graeme this morning (and in previous days)
Of course we're arguing about things here that have already been addressed there...
But I like arguing.
^+1
And I don't believe that AUK will lose members at renewal in vast numbers, annual fee is £19? Hardly breaking the bank when you spread the cost over a year and I believe that most people 'get' the current situation and that we are in trying times and it will get better you just need time...and a vaccine.
That's not a very good reason to be a member. You don't even know for sure that each member is not a net loss to AUK.Hardly a concern for any organisation on track to spend £500k on half a website... 😁
The idea of not reusing masks after taking them off until you wash them off is similar to not reusing hankies. By wearing the mask you have hopefully trapped all the nasties on the inside. Once it has been in your pocket there maybe nasties all over including the outside so the next time you put it on it is not effective. Folding it in half to keep the inside inside would help a little.As my face covering is a buff folded in half, the inside only touches the inside, but even if I somehow put it back on inside out, the "nasties" if there were any woukd still be on the mask. The mask is not a 100% virus proof barrier but the benefit is achieved by massively reducing exhalation velocity. Are you suggesting that any virus particles on my buff will be resuspended on the air by me breathing the wrong way through it, and spread as far as if I had not been wearing it?. I would hope no one will be touching it.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own#maintaining-and-disposing-of-face-coverings point 9. When you take your face covering off, put it in a sealed bag until you wash it.The idea of not reusing masks after taking them off until you wash them off is similar to not reusing hankies. By wearing the mask you have hopefully trapped all the nasties on the inside. Once it has been in your pocket there maybe nasties all over including the outside so the next time you put it on it is not effective. Folding it in half to keep the inside inside would help a little.As my face covering is a buff folded in half, the inside only touches the inside, but even if I somehow put it back on inside out, the "nasties" if there were any woukd still be on the mask. The mask is not a 100% virus proof barrier but the benefit is achieved by massively reducing exhalation velocity. Are you suggesting that any virus particles on my buff will be resuspended on the air by me breathing the wrong way through it, and spread as far as if I had not been wearing it?. I would hope no one will be touching it.
Also if I keep my buff on all the time and just raise/lower as required this issue goes away too. Bit warm for that today though.
And yet paragraph 4 advises to wash the face covering regularly, and not after every single use.Sorry can’t see that section 4. Section 5 goes into detail about washing it every time you take it off.
When I follow the link it goes straight to section 9, paragraph 1 do not touch front of covering or part that has touched mouth or nose - checkAnd yet paragraph 4 advises to wash the face covering regularly, and not after every single use.Sorry can’t see that section 4. Section 5 goes into detail about washing it every time you take it off.
Others have kind of said this already but my main thought is that if auk does not wish to validate 200km+ rides now, there may be a very long wait before things are materially different enough to justify a change, and membership renewals might be lower as a result.
Might someone else step into the gap? While I'm not volunteering, there is nothing to stop any like minded group of people setting up their own validation system outside AUK. It's three years to pbp so ACP validation is not a pressing issue, and the crazy IT system means the long term viability of AUK is questionable.
An Audax Ecosse independent of AUK is, apparently, “ever closer”
When I follow the link it goes straight to section 9, paragraph 1 do not touch front of covering or part that has touched mouth or nose - checkCurrent Audax UK Behaviour Code [ https://audax.uk/media/2181/england-behaviour-code.pdf ]
Paragraph 2 once removed store in plastic bag until you have an opportunity to wash... - this could be taken to imply wash after every use
Para 3 make sure you clean surfaces the covering has touched and don't put on cafe table - well duh
Para 4 wash regularly and follow instructions for the fabric. - personally I think after every use goes beyond regularly, which implies one a day at most.
I suppose the last section of section 5 "when removing... wash in line...." could mean after single use, but then they could make a very clear statement once - "do not reapply a removed covering" which would cover all those other cases with more certainty
The Auk guidance could say “wear a mask in accordance with government regulation and advice in the region(s) the ride is taking place” like it might say “abide by the Highway Code” without detailing what exactly that entails.
The Auk guidance could say “wear a mask in accordance with government regulation and advice in the region(s) the ride is taking place” like it might say “abide by the Highway Code” without detailing what exactly that entails.It sounds so simple doesn't it?
The Auk guidance could say “wear a mask in accordance with government regulation and advice in the region(s) the ride is taking place” like it might say “abide by the Highway Code” without detailing what exactly that entails.
Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?
It’s more a benefit to audax UK. The more people ride long distance without validation, the less they will care about it (validation). It may lead the situation in France where for many riders, brevets just become an activity every four years to qualify for PBP etc.
Essentially: use face covering, remove and bag, and reuse, and in due course for non-disposables eg buff or lovingly crafted home-made one, clean.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own#maintaining-and-disposing-of-face-coverings point 9. When you take your face covering off, put it in a sealed bag until you wash it.The idea of not reusing masks after taking them off until you wash them off is similar to not reusing hankies. By wearing the mask you have hopefully trapped all the nasties on the inside. Once it has been in your pocket there maybe nasties all over including the outside so the next time you put it on it is not effective. Folding it in half to keep the inside inside would help a little.As my face covering is a buff folded in half, the inside only touches the inside, but even if I somehow put it back on inside out, the "nasties" if there were any woukd still be on the mask. The mask is not a 100% virus proof barrier but the benefit is achieved by massively reducing exhalation velocity. Are you suggesting that any virus particles on my buff will be resuspended on the air by me breathing the wrong way through it, and spread as far as if I had not been wearing it?. I would hope no one will be touching it.
Also if I keep my buff on all the time and just raise/lower as required this issue goes away too. Bit warm for that today though.
The original reason given was at the time overnight stays were not allowed and to ride more than 200 if using the full value might require overnighting. At the time I pointed out that overnight stays were provisionally pencilled in for start of July in England and mid July for the rest.The Auk guidance could say “wear a mask in accordance with government regulation and advice in the region(s) the ride is taking place” like it might say “abide by the Highway Code” without detailing what exactly that entails.
I think that's all it needs.
It does seem odd that I could ride consecutive 200s but not a longer event. I could still ride my 400km route for example by entering as 2x200s. I don't know why riding a longer event is a problem.
The restaurants are packed now with the, "Eat out to help out," promotion. Weekends are busy too. People are staying in hotels. What is so wrong with riding an Audax >200km?
The mask if working well (and the wearer has covid) is collecting virons inside. After some time it will be quite a source of infection - so you seal it in a bag and wash your hands. Although this keeps the contents safe it also means you have a bag full of covid with a mask in. if you get it out again it is possibly worse than no mask at all.https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own#maintaining-and-disposing-of-face-coverings point 9. When you take your face covering off, put it in a sealed bag until you wash it.The idea of not reusing masks after taking them off until you wash them off is similar to not reusing hankies. By wearing the mask you have hopefully trapped all the nasties on the inside. Once it has been in your pocket there maybe nasties all over including the outside so the next time you put it on it is not effective. Folding it in half to keep the inside inside would help a little.As my face covering is a buff folded in half, the inside only touches the inside, but even if I somehow put it back on inside out, the "nasties" if there were any woukd still be on the mask. The mask is not a 100% virus proof barrier but the benefit is achieved by massively reducing exhalation velocity. Are you suggesting that any virus particles on my buff will be resuspended on the air by me breathing the wrong way through it, and spread as far as if I had not been wearing it?. I would hope no one will be touching it.
Also if I keep my buff on all the time and just raise/lower as required this issue goes away too. Bit warm for that today though.
What’s the science behind that?
The original reason given was at the time overnight stays were not allowed and to ride more than 200 if using the full value might require overnighting. At the time I pointed out that overnight stays were provisionally pencilled in for start of July in England and mid July for the rest.
Got any links to the peer reviewed science to define sometime and the evidence of quite a source of infection (to others)? I’m looking for the science not idle pondering and speculation by DaveF of YACF.
For instance an audaxer may go into say three shops on a 200km ride. They spend 5 mins in each. Is the covering now quite a source of infection?
On the awkward forum it's been revealed that AUK have suddenly had to shop for a new insurer during all this, and the abundance of caution has been part of trying to impress the new one.
Which makes a bit more sense.
Got any links to the peer reviewed science to define sometime and the evidence of quite a source of infection (to others)? I’m looking for the science not idle pondering and speculation by DaveF of YACF.There is little or no evidence about reuse of face masks and so the the recommendations of government and WHO are based on a cautious approach. The references at the end of https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/extended-use-or-re-use-of-single-use-surgical-masks-and-filtering-facepiece-respirators-a-rapid-evidence-review/ provide some but reusable face masks are a new thing and so most studies are on reusing single use masks in a ppe shortage. The govt guidance about after removing a face mask and putting it a plastic bag and leaving it there until you wash it is generic advice. My idle pondering is only about why the govt guidance is exists. The guidance could of course be much more complicated and cover scenarios such as multiple short trips into shops.
For instance an audaxer may go into say three shops on a 200km ride. They spend 5 mins in each. Is the covering now quite a source of infection?
Got any links to the peer reviewed science to define sometime and the evidence of quite a source of infection (to others)? I’m looking for the science not idle pondering and speculation by DaveF of YACF.
For instance an audaxer may go into say three shops on a 200km ride. They spend 5 mins in each. Is the covering now quite a source of infection?
None of the government websites that state to wash after every use seem to be quoting studies, but you can start on the assumption that this is allowing for the worst case until evidence to the contrary is provided. Which is the general route that's been taken.
For instance an audaxer may go into say three shops on a 200km ride. They spend 5 mins in each. Is the covering now quite a source of infection?
Dan - you've missed out the hand washing before and after entering a 'retail outlet' (requiring face covering).For instance an audaxer may go into say three shops on a 200km ride. They spend 5 mins in each. Is the covering now quite a source of infection?Take a bit of fabric, add breath, sweat, suncream, snot and a bit of food / drink that was around my mouth from eating while riding. Touch with hands that have been on my bike and picking up goods handled by others in a shop. Repeat in a few locations and brew in a pocket in the sun / rain for 12 hours (maybe longer, we're all keen to do longer rides after all). Then put it round my mouth and hands one last time and sit down to eat. Seems pretty manky to me. :sick:
The Auk guidance could say “wear a mask in accordance with government regulation and advice in the region(s) the ride is taking place” like it might say “abide by the Highway Code” without detailing what exactly that entails.Yes, Dave, that's much better than my clumsy attempt to improve the AudaxUK code and will not need to be changed if government regulation/guidance changes. Bespoke guidance always risks different interpretations and 'discussion'. But if we can just revert to gov/local 'authority' then an individual - riding or just during daily activity - can just get on with it.
Dan - you've missed out the hand washing before and after entering a 'retail outlet' (requiring face covering).For instance an audaxer may go into say three shops on a 200km ride. They spend 5 mins in each. Is the covering now quite a source of infection?Take a bit of fabric, add breath, sweat, suncream, snot and a bit of food / drink that was around my mouth from eating while riding. Touch with hands that have been on my bike and picking up goods handled by others in a shop. Repeat in a few locations and brew in a pocket in the sun / rain for 12 hours (maybe longer, we're all keen to do longer rides after all). Then put it round my mouth and hands one last time and sit down to eat. Seems pretty manky to me. :sick:
"Wash hands (with carried sanitiser). Fit fabric over mouth. Add breath, sweat, suncream, snot and a bit of food / drink / saliva that was around my mouth from eating while riding. Pick up goods possibly handled by others in a shop (same as you do at home). Touch face covering with hands that have been recently cleaned and remove, and bag. Repeat in a few locations and brew in a pocket in the sun / rain for 12 hours (maybe longer, we're all keen to do longer rides after all) [Comment: heat is thought to reduce viral efficacy aiui.] Clean hands (with carried sanitiser) thenput it round my mouth and hands one last time andsit down to eat, without the face covering on (obv)."
FTFY. I reckon my hands will be a lot cleaner following the current AudaxUK Behaviour Code than ever before. And, entering a shop, I bet they're a lot cleaner than 90% of the shop's other customers (unless it's a shop which has provided a hand wash station outside - not 'normal for Devon').
If a rider is pre-symptomatic or asymptomatic then most exhaled viral load will be captured by the face covering (designed not to protect but to achieve 'source control') and any escaping viral load will be 'slowed down' so physical distancing is the reasonable risk mitigation for that. And the rider will then reuse that face covering several times (with the same/satisfactory (source control) protective function). They can't infect themselves, can they? And if the rider is not in that category (ie is not infected) then there will be no viral load on the face covering (source control) so reusing offers no risk.
(f) DIY events (DIY) are permanent events where riders provide the organiser with their own
control details
S. R. here we come, I don't expect those who have been whining like babies to rush out and do a 600km
I have routes sorted for all distances :thumbsup:
And a extra month to do it.
S. R. here we come, I don't expect those who have been whining like babies to rush out and do a 600kmI had planned to finish my season at the start of August post lejog and change sport temporarily. With that kind of fighting talk I might have to do a validated SR in September. Are ECEs ok ?
I have routes sorted for all distances :thumbsup:
And a extra month to do it.
They usually are. I was hoping to do one SR this Audax year. A DIY 600 to my dad and back would be perfect.S. R. here we come, I don't expect those who have been whining like babies to rush out and do a 600kmI had planned to finish my season at the start of August post lejog and change sport temporarily. With that kind of fighting talk I might have to do a validated SR in September. Are ECEs ok ?
I have routes sorted for all distances :thumbsup:
And a extra month to do it.
ECEs are 'OK', effectively wef 1 Sep, of course.S. R. here we come, I don't expect those who have been whining like babies to rush out and do a 600kmI had planned to finish my season at the start of August post lejog and change sport temporarily. With that kind of fighting talk I might have to do a validated SR in September. Are ECEs ok ?
I have routes sorted for all distances :thumbsup:
And a extra month to do it.
S. R. here we come, I don't expect those who have been whining like babies to rush out and do a 600kmI've got one planned for 2 weeks time. (Booked a couple of weeks ago.)
I think not, but I understand there is a limit to how many rides
British cycling currently Say a 30 person limit as I understand
All will become clearer in the next few days I guess.
Im struggling to get my head around how triathlon events can be allowed but audax limited to 6 over 300km.....Most triathlons are non drafting so you dq for being within 8m in the bike bit. Multiple separated groups of 6 are allowed under bc rules since 18th June. I did a club TT with 52 participants last week. I also swim in a lake at the same time as 99 other people. No laws are broken. I am more intrigued by British athletics organising runs with up to 4000 competitors in the next week.
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I get there is no drafting on the bike but I’m thinking more about that amount of people going to one location. Toilets etc. Seems to me to be higher risk than an audax. Do people ride audax in groups of 6 or larger?British triathlon are only allowing small local triathlons currently.
Maybe it’s just me but I would feel far safer on a 300km audax w normal numbers riding at my own pace than on a 80km club ride w 5 others
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I'm hoping to run Upper Thames this year (Nov 7th) and am well advanced in post-Covid planning. The numbers thing remains the one major unknown. I normally have about 100 starters, though this year expect rather less. But even 50 starting together would be driving a coach and horses through current guidance. My current thinking is to allocate multiple time-slots for starting between 0700 and 0830 (we normally start at 0730), with small groups setting off every 10 minutes. Groups will quickly break up (and possibly re-form) down the road, so I'm not concerned about numbers except at the start.Groups of 6 riders at 5 minute intervals would give over a 100 participants between 700 to 830. A 5 minute interval corresponds to well over a kilometre on the road.
Otherwise planning is well advanced in terms of how I manage the depart and arrivee, including the use of bar-code scanning to determine actual departure time of each rider so I can properly measure ride elapsed time.
Unfortunately it doesn't look as if we'll be able to provide food at start or finish, though I'm hoping hot drinks will be possible.
I keep seeing "post-covid", were still right in the middle of it.It should be obvious from Phil's post that he doesn't think we're out of this.
Any post state is still a long way off.
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Deaths, clearly the peak was back in April.
Yes, the deaths dropped because our behaviour changed, not because the virus has changed. Returning to our old behaviour and infections will rise nearly as quickly as before. Nearly but not quite as quickly because 6% of the population may be immune.Deaths, clearly the peak was back in April.
... and they've been indistinguishable from any other year s for two and a half months.
Yes, the deaths dropped because our behaviour changed, not because the virus has changed.Deaths, clearly the peak was back in April.
... and they've been indistinguishable from any other year s for two and a half months.
Returning to our old behaviour and infections will rise nearly as quickly as before. Nearly but not quite as quickly because 6% of the population may be immune.
Based on the weekly deaths the basic reproduction number R0 changed from a little above 3 to somewhere around 1. The basic reproduction number is a feature of both the virus and our behaviour and the environment. There are I believe over 200 variants in the genome of sars-cov-2 but the measured R does not vary across these variants which are often distributed geographically. The only significant variations are related to effectiveness of therapeutics. Our behaviour clearly has changed. In scenarios where we have reverted back to similar to previous behaviour for example in pubs the basic R appears to be close to 3 again. The case fatality ratio has improved dramatically- there is much improved treatment. The 6% historical infection rate came from the Imperial college antibody testing results published last week.Yes, the deaths dropped because our behaviour changed, not because the virus has changed.Deaths, clearly the peak was back in April.
... and they've been indistinguishable from any other year s for two and a half months.
Evidence?QuoteReturning to our old behaviour and infections will rise nearly as quickly as before. Nearly but not quite as quickly because 6% of the population may be immune.
Evidence?
I keep seeing "post-covid", were still right in the middle of it.It should be obvious from Phil's post that he doesn't think we're out of this.
Any post state is still a long way off.
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It's a term I've seen in lots of places and it's pissing me off just as people acting normally are and getting their towns locked down as a result.
Were [sic]only "post" when either it no longer poses a threat, or we've given up caring about the deaths and long term Conditions [sic] it causes.
One of the primary reasons deaths are down is due to the main carriers being in age groups with low risk of death because they're the ones going back to pubs and not giving a shit about distancing.Long may they continue O:-) If you don't want to join them because you're too scared to accept a completely normal level of risk, please stay in this dusty and inconsequential corner of the internet and don't ever venture out.
Throughout most scientists have said the chance of infection outdoors is minimal.
Is this like the beaches, parks, BLM protests and countless other episodes that the prophets of doom were saying would result in mass infection, but did no such thing.
Have they learned? Have you learned? Has Davef learned?
Yep, the contact tracing results are showing this too, all the clusters here are linked to workplaces, pubs or house parties.Throughout most scientists have said the chance of infection outdoors is minimal.
Is this like the beaches, parks, BLM protests and countless other episodes that the prophets of doom were saying would result in mass infection, but did no such thing.
Have they learned? Have you learned? Has Davef learned?
It's a term I've seen in lots of places and it's pissing me off just as people acting normally are and getting their towns locked down as a result.
It's them who are getting their towns locked down, is it? How very convenient, you've got someone to blame.
Is this like the beaches, parks, BLM protests and countless other episodes that the prophets of doom were saying would result in mass infection, but did no such thing.
Have they learned? Have you learned? Has Davef learned? Nope.
Your idea of how this infection is spread is mostly wrong. You might like to think you understand it but you don't - and neither does anyone else.QuoteWere [sic]only "post" when either it no longer poses a threat, or we've given up caring about the deaths and long term Conditions [sic] it causes.
Ooh look, you've now added "long term conditions" onto deaths. Now that our death count is back to normal, we've got to find something else to worry about and to keep flagellating ourselves. First it was hospitals getting overwhelmed, then it was anyone dying at all, now it's anyone getting post-viral fatigue. You want to stop life because you won't accept that illness is a part of life.QuoteOne of the primary reasons deaths are down is due to the main carriers being in age groups with low risk of death because they're the ones going back to pubs and not giving a shit about distancing.Long may they continue O:-) If you don't want to join them because you're too scared to accept a completely normal level of risk, please stay in this dusty and inconsequential corner of the internet and don't ever venture out.
It's a term I've seen in lots of places and it's pissing me off just as people acting normally are and getting their towns locked down as a result.
It's them who are getting their towns locked down, is it? How very convenient, you've got someone to blame.
Is this like the beaches, parks, BLM protests and countless other episodes that the prophets of doom were saying would result in mass infection, but did no such thing.
Have they learned? Have you learned? Has Davef learned? Nope.
Your idea of how this infection is spread is mostly wrong. You might like to think you understand it but you don't - and neither does anyone else.QuoteWere [sic]only "post" when either it no longer poses a threat, or we've given up caring about the deaths and long term Conditions [sic] it causes.
Ooh look, you've now added "long term conditions" onto deaths. Now that our death count is back to normal, we've got to find something else to worry about and to keep flagellating ourselves. First it was hospitals getting overwhelmed, then it was anyone dying at all, now it's anyone getting post-viral fatigue. You want to stop life because you won't accept that illness is a part of life.QuoteOne of the primary reasons deaths are down is due to the main carriers being in age groups with low risk of death because they're the ones going back to pubs and not giving a shit about distancing.Long may they continue O:-) If you don't want to join them because you're too scared to accept a completely normal level of risk, please stay in this dusty and inconsequential corner of the internet and don't ever venture out.
Outcomes of Cardiovascular Magnetic Resonance Imaging in Patients Recently Recovered From Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/cardiology/articlepdf/2768916/jamacardiology_puntmann_2020_oi_200057.pdf
60% including mild and asymptomatic cases had myocarditis. Average of patients 49. Didn’t make any difference how severe the illness was. So we do know that covid frequently damages the heart, even in relatively young and healthy people. Pretending it’s some sort of scare tactic is asinine.
It's a term I've seen in lots of places and it's pissing me off just as people acting normally are and getting their towns locked down as a result.
It's them who are getting their towns locked down, is it? How very convenient, you've got someone to blame.
Is this like the beaches, parks, BLM protests and countless other episodes that the prophets of doom were saying would result in mass infection, but did no such thing.
Have they learned? Have you learned? Has Davef learned? Nope.
Your idea of how this infection is spread is mostly wrong. You might like to think you understand it but you don't - and neither does anyone else.QuoteWere [sic]only "post" when either it no longer poses a threat, or we've given up caring about the deaths and long term Conditions [sic] it causes.
Ooh look, you've now added "long term conditions" onto deaths. Now that our death count is back to normal, we've got to find something else to worry about and to keep flagellating ourselves. First it was hospitals getting overwhelmed, then it was anyone dying at all, now it's anyone getting post-viral fatigue. You want to stop life because you won't accept that illness is a part of life.QuoteOne of the primary reasons deaths are down is due to the main carriers being in age groups with low risk of death because they're the ones going back to pubs and not giving a shit about distancing.Long may they continue O:-) If you don't want to join them because you're too scared to accept a completely normal level of risk, please stay in this dusty and inconsequential corner of the internet and don't ever venture out.
Outcomes of Cardiovascular Magnetic Resonance Imaging in Patients Recently Recovered From Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/cardiology/articlepdf/2768916/jamacardiology_puntmann_2020_oi_200057.pdf
60% including mild and asymptomatic cases had myocarditis. Average of patients 49. Didn’t make any difference how severe the illness was. So we do know that covid frequently damages the heart, even in relatively young and healthy people. Pretending it’s some sort of scare tactic is asinine.
Average 49, quartiles 45-53.
So if you're aged 50 and you get C19, you have some scarring on your heart a few months later.
It's hardly bodies piling up in the streets, is it? Expecting everyone to pause their lives because some patients who are a decade older than the UK's median age have got ongoing symptoms of unknown severity is a hideously selfish.
Average 49, quartiles 45-53.
So if you're aged 50 and you get C19, you have some scarring on your heart a few months later.
It's hardly bodies piling up in the streets, is it? Expecting everyone to pause their lives because some patients who are a decade older than the UK's median age have got ongoing symptoms of unknown severity is a hideously selfish.
It's a term I've seen in lots of places and it's pissing me off just as people acting normally are and getting their towns locked down as a result.
It's them who are getting their towns locked down, is it? How very convenient, you've got someone to blame.
Is this like the beaches, parks, BLM protests and countless other episodes that the prophets of doom were saying would result in mass infection, but did no such thing.
Have they learned? Have you learned? Has Davef learned? Nope.
Your idea of how this infection is spread is mostly wrong. You might like to think you understand it but you don't - and neither does anyone else.QuoteWere [sic]only "post" when either it no longer poses a threat, or we've given up caring about the deaths and long term Conditions [sic] it causes.
Ooh look, you've now added "long term conditions" onto deaths. Now that our death count is back to normal, we've got to find something else to worry about and to keep flagellating ourselves. First it was hospitals getting overwhelmed, then it was anyone dying at all, now it's anyone getting post-viral fatigue. You want to stop life because you won't accept that illness is a part of life.QuoteOne of the primary reasons deaths are down is due to the main carriers being in age groups with low risk of death because they're the ones going back to pubs and not giving a shit about distancing.Long may they continue O:-) If you don't want to join them because you're too scared to accept a completely normal level of risk, please stay in this dusty and inconsequential corner of the internet and don't ever venture out.
Outcomes of Cardiovascular Magnetic Resonance Imaging in Patients Recently Recovered From Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/cardiology/articlepdf/2768916/jamacardiology_puntmann_2020_oi_200057.pdf
60% including mild and asymptomatic cases had myocarditis. Average of patients 49. Didn’t make any difference how severe the illness was. So we do know that covid frequently damages the heart, even in relatively young and healthy people. Pretending it’s some sort of scare tactic is asinine.
Average 49, quartiles 45-53.
So if you're aged 50 and you get C19, you have some scarring on your heart a few months later.
It's hardly bodies piling up in the streets, is it? Expecting everyone to pause their lives because some patients who are a decade older than the UK's median age have got ongoing symptoms of unknown severity is a hideously selfish.
“Some”. 3-4 million people in the uk have had covid. 60% in this example have cardiomyopathy. This is not a few isolated cases. Even if by some magic the cardiomyopathy only happened to people over 40, you’re looking at more than a million people with heart involvement. By comparison seasonal flu does this very rarely.
This is in addition to scarring on the lungs also seen in asymptomatic cases. It’s in addition to the changes on brain MRIs seen in Chinese research. It’s the TrainerRoad user who hasn’t been able to train effectively for 5 months. 20 minutes light exercise and they’re in the ER.
And you have the gall to talk about selfishness on a thread about frivolous bike rides during a pandemic.
But that 60% is 69% of people in the trial people who had been hospitalised, not 60% of all people infected.It's a term I've seen in lots of places and it's pissing me off just as people acting normally are and getting their towns locked down as a result.
It's them who are getting their towns locked down, is it? How very convenient, you've got someone to blame.
Is this like the beaches, parks, BLM protests and countless other episodes that the prophets of doom were saying would result in mass infection, but did no such thing.
Have they learned? Have you learned? Has Davef learned? Nope.
Your idea of how this infection is spread is mostly wrong. You might like to think you understand it but you don't - and neither does anyone else.QuoteWere [sic]only "post" when either it no longer poses a threat, or we've given up caring about the deaths and long term Conditions [sic] it causes.
Ooh look, you've now added "long term conditions" onto deaths. Now that our death count is back to normal, we've got to find something else to worry about and to keep flagellating ourselves. First it was hospitals getting overwhelmed, then it was anyone dying at all, now it's anyone getting post-viral fatigue. You want to stop life because you won't accept that illness is a part of life.QuoteOne of the primary reasons deaths are down is due to the main carriers being in age groups with low risk of death because they're the ones going back to pubs and not giving a shit about distancing.Long may they continue O:-) If you don't want to join them because you're too scared to accept a completely normal level of risk, please stay in this dusty and inconsequential corner of the internet and don't ever venture out.
Outcomes of Cardiovascular Magnetic Resonance Imaging in Patients Recently Recovered From Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/cardiology/articlepdf/2768916/jamacardiology_puntmann_2020_oi_200057.pdf
60% including mild and asymptomatic cases had myocarditis. Average of patients 49. Didn’t make any difference how severe the illness was. So we do know that covid frequently damages the heart, even in relatively young and healthy people. Pretending it’s some sort of scare tactic is asinine.
Average 49, quartiles 45-53.
So if you're aged 50 and you get C19, you have some scarring on your heart a few months later.
It's hardly bodies piling up in the streets, is it? Expecting everyone to pause their lives because some patients who are a decade older than the UK's median age have got ongoing symptoms of unknown severity is a hideously selfish.
“Some”. 3-4 million people in the uk have had covid. 60% in this example have cardiomyopathy. This is not a few isolated cases. Even if by some magic the cardiomyopathy only happened to people over 40, you’re looking at more than a million people with heart involvement. By comparison seasonal flu does this very rarely.
This is in addition to scarring on the lungs also seen in asymptomatic cases. It’s in addition to the changes on brain MRIs seen in Chinese research. It’s the TrainerRoad user who hasn’t been able to train effectively for 5 months. 20 minutes light exercise and they’re in the ER.
And you have the gall to talk about selfishness on a thread about frivolous bike rides during a pandemic.
As to calling frivolous bike rides selfish, all the evidence is that transmission outdoors is rare, so going for a solo bike ride is extremely low risk.
But that 60% is 69% of people in the trial people who had been hospitalised, not 60% of all people infected.
(https://www.cebm.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/florence-3.jpg)A map of Antarctica?
Only if you believe in a spherical earth.(https://www.cebm.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/florence-3.jpg)A map of Antarctica?
As to calling frivolous bike rides selfish, all the evidence is that transmission outdoors is rare, so going for a solo bike ride is extremely low risk.
You've raised this question many times during this pandemic.
But maybe some cannot do a long ride without Audax Points?
Well said.
Edited to add: @Karla, there is a whole spectrum of behaviour between hiding under your bed sheets for the rest of your life and carrying on as if there is no pandemic. Pretending that everyone who doesn't do the latter automatically must be doing the former is disingenuous.
Continuing with life with some additional precautions is not 'flagellating ourselves' it is just sensible. We learn new stuff all the time and change our behaviour. Otherwise we would never have started wearing seat belts, or sterilising surgical equipment, or giving a toss about safety in the workplace.
You've raised this question many times during this pandemic.
But maybe some cannot do a long ride without Audax Points?
It got me thinking:
Do you currently feel pressured to ride 200km along a pre-declared route? 🙁
OK. I see what you're saying. So do you think allowing 300k+ rides is a mistake?You've raised this question many times during this pandemic.
But maybe some cannot do a long ride without Audax Points?
It got me thinking:
Do you currently feel pressured to ride 200km along a pre-declared route? 🙁
I don't, but then I haven't ridden an Audax for years.
But by opening up the season some people who might not want to go out will feel pressured to go out to avoid "missing out" on their SR/whatever this season. RTTY has the luxury of being open ended, so it doesn't matter if people take their time to restart that, but the season specific awards like an SR (or awards like B25000) have to be timeboxed and those timescales will not suit everyone.
If you don't open up the season (beyond 200km rides) then everyone is missing out equally, and there's no decision to be made from the individuals.
OK. I see what you're saying. So do you think allowing 300k+ rides is a mistake?You've raised this question many times during this pandemic.
But maybe some cannot do a long ride without Audax Points?
It got me thinking:
Do you currently feel pressured to ride 200km along a pre-declared route? 🙁
I don't, but then I haven't ridden an Audax for years.
But by opening up the season some people who might not want to go out will feel pressured to go out to avoid "missing out" on their SR/whatever this season. RTTY has the luxury of being open ended, so it doesn't matter if people take their time to restart that, but the season specific awards like an SR (or awards like B25000) have to be timeboxed and those timescales will not suit everyone.
If you don't open up the season (beyond 200km rides) then everyone is missing out equally, and there's no decision to be made from the individuals.
Are these people who have been pressured into the long rides purely hypothetical, or can you name some examples?
The board made it clear early on that they're monitoring Audaxy social media to get a feel for member opinions; so yes, I'd say your views count for something.OK. I see what you're saying. So do you think allowing 300k+ rides is a mistake?
Possibly, yes, although I'm sure no-one really gives a shit about my personal opinion.
The board made it clear early on that they're monitoring Audaxy social media to get a feel for member opinions; so yes, I'd say your views count for something.OK. I see what you're saying. So do you think allowing 300k+ rides is a mistake?
Possibly, yes, although I'm sure no-one really gives a shit about my personal opinion.
(https://www.cebm.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/florence-3.jpg)A map of Antarctica?
Scottish Cycling have updated their guidelines following their latest agreement with SportScotland.
30 people from any number of households in a group with no social distancing required while riding.
As soon as you get off the bike standard guidance returns so at start, finish café etc you're back to social distancing limitations
But......................... all groups have to have a COVID-19 Co-Ordinator (Whatever that is)
Wonder how/if AUK will respond to that.
Scottish Cycling have updated their guidelines following their latest agreement with SportScotland.
30 people from any number of households in a group with no social distancing required while riding.
As soon as you get off the bike standard guidance returns so at start, finish café etc you're back to social distancing limitations
But......................... all groups have to have a COVID-19 Co-Ordinator (Whatever that is)
Wonder how/if AUK will respond to that.
Scottish Cycling have updated their guidelines following their latest agreement with SportScotland.
30 people from any number of households in a group with no social distancing required while riding.
As soon as you get off the bike standard guidance returns so at start, finish café etc you're back to social distancing limitations
But......................... all groups have to have a COVID-19 Co-Ordinator (Whatever that is)
Wonder how/if AUK will respond to that.
"We are AUK."
I would imagine.
Perms appear to still be suspended in practice, at least the ones (600) that I have looked at are. . . .The Permanents Secretary has, I believe, e-mailed all perm event organisers and invited them to reply saying they are content to have their events reopened (for entries). I surmise that those which are still suspended are those which the organiser judges not viable at present (some are abroad) and/or where the organiser has not replied, deliberately or otherwise.
Anyone know if perms up to 600 are likely to be unsuspended any time soon, or is it an individual organiser thing?
Perms appear to still be suspended in practice, at least the ones (600) that I have looked at are. . . .The Permanents Secretary has, I believe, e-mailed all perm event organisers and invited them to reply saying they are content to have their events reopened (for entries). I surmise that those which are still suspended are those which the organiser judges not viable at present (some are abroad) and/or where the organiser has not replied, deliberately or otherwise.
Anyone know if perms up to 600 are likely to be unsuspended any time soon, or is it an individual organiser thing?
Perms appear to still be suspended in practice, at least the ones (600) that I have looked at are. . . .The Permanents Secretary has, I believe, e-mailed all perm event organisers and invited them to reply saying they are content to have their events reopened (for entries). I surmise that those which are still suspended are those which the organiser judges not viable at present (some are abroad) and/or where the organiser has not replied, deliberately or otherwise.
Anyone know if perms up to 600 are likely to be unsuspended any time soon, or is it an individual organiser thing?
Also very few calendar events opening up so far, but still early days probably.
I think John tried to email all the organisers with perms > 200km once the restriction was lifted - but it was just as he went off on holiday so it may not have successfully reached all, hence he also asked me to post this on the AUK forum about it:Perms appear to still be suspended in practice, at least the ones (600) that I have looked at are. . . .The Permanents Secretary has, I believe, e-mailed all perm event organisers and invited them to reply saying they are content to have their events reopened (for entries). I surmise that those which are still suspended are those which the organiser judges not viable at present (some are abroad) and/or where the organiser has not replied, deliberately or otherwise.
Anyone know if perms up to 600 are likely to be unsuspended any time soon, or is it an individual organiser thing?
This was when only perms up to 200km had the option of opening, back in July. There has been no email subsequent to that. So it may just be the perm organisers haven’t noticed and therefore requested their 600 re opens.
You're right, Phil. As @bhoot said, I saw the mid-month post on the AudaxUK site and e-mailed John asking for my permanents (600s) to be un-suspended (17 Aug). Two hours later, he'd "done it".Perms appear to still be suspended in practice, at least the ones (600) that I have looked at are. . . .The Permanents Secretary has, I believe, e-mailed all perm event organisers and invited them to reply saying they are content to have their events reopened (for entries). I surmise that those which are still suspended are those which the organiser judges not viable at present (some are abroad) and/or where the organiser has not replied, deliberately or otherwise.
Anyone know if perms up to 600 are likely to be unsuspended any time soon, or is it an individual organiser thing?
This was when only perms up to 200km had the option of opening, back in July. There has been no email subsequent to that. So it may just be the perm organisers haven’t noticed and therefore requested their 600 re opens.
My Upper Thames 200 on Nov 7th is now "un-suspended", as are a few other 200k+ calendar events.
It will be a bit different to "normal", especially at the start and finish, but we'll see how it goes.
I expect to be sending riders out over a period of up to an hour and a half (depending how many entries there are, which makes timing of each individual rider more complex. I have done some work on adding bar-codes to the brevet card labels, and reading them into a spreadsheet on a laptop from my phone, which seems to work well. Any other organisers who would like information on what I've come up with are welcome to contact me at phil@thamesvalleyaudax.co.uk
At the current rate apple are going at, sating tough shit to Apple users is probably the easiest option...... apple market cap hit $1 trn this month, I think they are doing ok.
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At the current rate apple are going at, sating tough shit to Apple users is probably the easiest option...... apple market cap hit $1 trn this month, I think they are doing ok.
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See their spat with EPIC.At the current rate apple are going at, sating tough shit to Apple users is probably the easiest option...... apple market cap hit $1 trn this month, I think they are doing ok.
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See their spat with EPIC.
See their spat with EPIC.At the current rate apple are going at, sating tough shit to Apple users is probably the easiest option...... apple market cap hit $1 trn this month, I think they are doing ok.
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To make things easier as events start up again, we have added a new filter to both the calendar and permanent events lists - these now by default only show you events you can enter (ie not the cancelled/suspended events). If you do want to see all events then just untick the box. The default time period for calendar events has also been increased to be 28 days, starting from the current date, but you can of course change either the from date or the number of days.
Are start rimes not pre assigned to prevent large numbers massing at the start?
In which case start time could be noted on the brevet, which does not get put out for collection until 5 minutes before the listed time.
Anyone who is late just loses time in the same way as normal.
Or is this too much hassle returning to put brevets out in batches? Seems easier than monitoring everyone leaving.
You don't need an app to do contactless controls, although it does probably make things easier.And it's basically how PBP used to work when you Q-ed up to start, so couldn't know your start-time in advance.
If the Controller at the start takes a note of the time the rider leaves at, and the rider takes a note of the time they leave at, and say that the earliest counts, then repeat at any manned controls, and the finish, you've got double recording of the critical times.
Its how the timing systems for rallying work, even with all the fancy timing systems that make life easier, the time card that the navigator carries is actually considered the primary record for disputes, if a navigator loses it, DNF.
When my dad saw a brevet card he got the concept instantly.
And it's basically how PBP used to work when you Q-ed up to start, so couldn't know your start-time in advance.
(It was a slight hassle having to mentally re-calc the cutoffs during the event, but it wormed into your head after a while! )
We need to see the full legislation and guidance that is due to be published with the pending announcement on social gatherings in England but from the information released so far, we should be able to continue with calendar events and permanents in England.
We adopted the “gold standard” approach for calendar events by following the organised team sports path (as trailed by British Cycling) which was in line with the direct recommendation we received from the DCMS. I fully expect that to be one of the exemptions and that will apply to calendar events.
Permanent rides will remain within the legal limits anyway.
The average age of audax U.K. members is 78
Is it time for AUK to put all recognised events to bed until we're out of this completely? (Although I guess that reopens the question of what defines "completely"?)
I am sure it is accurate. On rereading it I can see how people might assume the units were Earth years. The units were HP (hectopbps) defined as 100 times the average pbp vedette finishing time.
The average age of audax U.K. members is 78
You mean, I'm still below average age for Audax UK members? Or did you just make that figure up?
Bit of a wooly No 10 press conference to say the least but this is what has been gleaned by some reporters;In England yes possibly. No reason why somebody in Scotlands Tier 1 shouldnt ride an audax though.
While elite sport will continue as normal, exercise for everyone else will be limited to unlimited periods outdoors – either with people from their own households, or on a one-to-one basis with a person from another household.
does this mean AUK calendar events between 5.11 and 2.12 are cancelled?
Bit of a wooly No 10 press conference to say the least but this is what has been gleaned by some reporters;In England yes possibly. No reason why somebody in Scotlands Tier 1 shouldnt ride an audax though.
While elite sport will continue as normal, exercise for everyone else will be limited to unlimited periods outdoors – either with people from their own households, or on a one-to-one basis with a person from another household.
does this mean AUK calendar events between 5.11 and 2.12 are cancelled?
no, but i referenced tier 1 as the canvas is wider.Bit of a wooly No 10 press conference to say the least but this is what has been gleaned by some reporters;In England yes possibly. No reason why somebody in Scotlands Tier 1 shouldnt ride an audax though.
While elite sport will continue as normal, exercise for everyone else will be limited to unlimited periods outdoors – either with people from their own households, or on a one-to-one basis with a person from another household.
does this mean AUK calendar events between 5.11 and 2.12 are cancelled?
Anything to stop someone in tier 3 from doing a DIY if the rote is within their own health board area?
Bit of a wooly No 10 press conference to say the least but this is what has been gleaned by some reporters;In England yes possibly. No reason why somebody in Scotlands Tier 1 shouldnt ride an audax though.
While elite sport will continue as normal, exercise for everyone else will be limited to unlimited periods outdoors – either with people from their own households, or on a one-to-one basis with a person from another household.
does this mean AUK calendar events between 5.11 and 2.12 are cancelled?
no, but i referenced tier 1 as the canvas is wider.Bit of a wooly No 10 press conference to say the least but this is what has been gleaned by some reporters;In England yes possibly. No reason why somebody in Scotlands Tier 1 shouldnt ride an audax though.
While elite sport will continue as normal, exercise for everyone else will be limited to unlimited periods outdoors – either with people from their own households, or on a one-to-one basis with a person from another household.
does this mean AUK calendar events between 5.11 and 2.12 are cancelled?
Anything to stop someone in tier 3 from doing a DIY if the rote is within their own health board area?
whereas Perms could proceed under external exercise Rules.
whereas Perms could proceed under external exercise Rules.
Wishful thinking. I don't think there is any alternative to a total ban on validations during lockdown. Remember "stay at home" and "don't travel".
This means you must not leave or be outside of your home except for specific purposes. These include:
...to exercise outdoors or visit an outdoor public place - with the people you live with, with your support bubble or, when on your own, with 1 person from another household.
Bit of a wooly No 10 press conference to say the least but this is what has been gleaned by some reporters;In England yes possibly. No reason why somebody in Scotlands Tier 1 shouldnt ride an audax though.
While elite sport will continue as normal, exercise for everyone else will be limited to unlimited periods outdoors – either with people from their own households, or on a one-to-one basis with a person from another household.
does this mean AUK calendar events between 5.11 and 2.12 are cancelled?
Anything to stop someone in tier 3 from doing a DIY if the rote is within their own health board area?
Thats fine for IanDG though if he goes to level 3 from 1, D&G is both a council area and a health board area!Bit of a wooly No 10 press conference to say the least but this is what has been gleaned by some reporters;In England yes possibly. No reason why somebody in Scotlands Tier 1 shouldnt ride an audax though.
While elite sport will continue as normal, exercise for everyone else will be limited to unlimited periods outdoors – either with people from their own households, or on a one-to-one basis with a person from another household.
does this mean AUK calendar events between 5.11 and 2.12 are cancelled?
Anything to stop someone in tier 3 from doing a DIY if the rote is within their own health board area?
As of tomorrow, it's local authority areas rather than health board areas.
whereas Perms could proceed under external exercise Rules.
Wishful thinking. I don't think there is any alternative to a total ban on validations during lockdown. Remember "stay at home" and "don't travel".
I do remember those but for the imminent English 'lockdown' I also read:QuoteThis means you must not leave or be outside of your home except for specific purposes. These include:
...to exercise outdoors or visit an outdoor public place - with the people you live with, with your support bubble or, when on your own, with 1 person from another household.
I can work with that.
As I plan to ride a DIY event next weekend Ive just looked at the rules as per the Scottish Govt announcement on 23 October.Something else that's critical up here is the travel restrictions are currently only guidance not law.
https://www.gov.scot/publications/covid-19-scotlands-strategic-framework/
Im in a Level 3 area. It says "No non-essential travel into or out of the level 3 area. Exemptions for essential travel for work, education, shopping health
etc; outdoor exercise; weddings and funerals; shared parenting, and transit through restricted areas"
Similar provisions apply to all other levels vis a vis transit in and out.
As there is a specific travel exemption for outdoor exercise, a DIY audax including both (a) travel beyond my own health board area and (b) into areas that are Levels 0,1,2 or 4 is permitted - as things stand.
As I plan to ride a DIY event next weekend Ive just looked at the rules as per the Scottish Govt announcement on 23 October.Something else that's critical up here is the travel restrictions are currently only guidance not law.
https://www.gov.scot/publications/covid-19-scotlands-strategic-framework/
Im in a Level 3 area. It says "No non-essential travel into or out of the level 3 area. Exemptions for essential travel for work, education, shopping health
etc; outdoor exercise; weddings and funerals; shared parenting, and transit through restricted areas"
Similar provisions apply to all other levels vis a vis transit in and out.
As there is a specific travel exemption for outdoor exercise, a DIY audax including both (a) travel beyond my own health board area and (b) into areas that are Levels 0,1,2 or 4 is permitted - as things stand.
If you drove to the horn for a bacon butty the good people of the grange* could do little more than tut in your general direction.
* it'd probably be all L3 dundonians anyway.
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a willingness to look for loopholes, rather being part of the solution, which would be out of character. I do not wish to belong to an organisation that looks for loopholes for selfish purposes.That's not true: the government has specifically allowed outdoor exercise, it has gone out of its way to specify that. So we are allowed to go for a run, for a bike ride, for a walk in the country. That is specifically allowed, no question and it's obvious that the government has deliberately gone out of its way to highlight this issue.
I don’t really think there’s any essential difference between a ‘virtual’ running event and a perm/DIY Audax. As long as people obey rules on group size etc I can’t think what the problem would be.
Going out for a long bike ride where you encounter no other humans is fine; encouraging going out on a long bike ride is fine. Going into shops etc (either for supplies or validation) is the only thing I see that's problematic.
[EDIT] Nothing on the AUK forum yet, but my guess is that they'll suspend validation for the period of the lockdown. Not doing so would be unfair (IMHO) to those who are looking to comply with the spirit of lockdown rather than looking for ways to read the regulations in such a way to allow them to continue their hobby that is built on top of exercise.
Going out for a long bike ride where you encounter no other humans is fine; encouraging going out on a long bike ride is fine. Going into shops etc (either for supplies or validation) is the only thing I see that's problematic.
Calendar events are a decision for the Grown Ups, and I'm so pleased that is their decision not mine.
But perms are OK, from my reading of the rulz.
So a GdS perm will be fine, but only from my reading of the govt statement. Valuation by GPX track as usual so no receipts. Take sarnies and water.
But seems it can be done.
whereas Perms could proceed under external exercise Rules.
Wishful thinking. I don't think there is any alternative to a total ban on validations during lockdown. Remember "stay at home" and "don't travel".
I do remember those but for the imminent English 'lockdown' I also read:QuoteThis means you must not leave or be outside of your home except for specific purposes. These include:
...to exercise outdoors or visit an outdoor public place - with the people you live with, with your support bubble or, when on your own, with 1 person from another household.
I can work with that.
As I said, wishful thinking.. I would be very surprised (and somewhat disappointed) if AUK did go ahead allowing validations during these 4 weeks... it would show a willingness to look for loopholes, rather being part of the solution, which would be out of character. I do not wish to belong to an organisation that looks for loopholes for selfish purposes.
I will continue to ride my bike to the shops to buy my daily provisions. The fact that I will do only 10km there and back is irrelevant. Going to a shop that sells essential goods is perfectly reasonable.
shopping for basic necessities, for example food and medicine, which should be as infrequent as possibleSo riding 100 km from home and going into a shop to but a Twix either because you're hungry or because you need a receipt, seems incompatible with the guidelines, particularly the last bit.
Provided you rode to the start of course
Going out for a long bike ride where you encounter no other humans is fine; encouraging going out on a long bike ride is fine. Going into shops etc (either for supplies or validation) is the only thing I see that's problematic.
Identical discussions were carried out during the first lockdown and AUK decided to suspend validations. I don't see why this time they should act differently.
Identical discussions were carried out during the first lockdown and AUK decided to suspend validations. I don't see why this time they should act differently.
Validations should have been stopped for all of the UK when NI went into lockdown then.
Yes, but your talking about AUK not Audax England or Audax Wales, we're Validations officially stopped in NI (even though AUK a' rely exists there) and Wales?Identical discussions were carried out during the first lockdown and AUK decided to suspend validations. I don't see why this time they should act differently.
Validations should have been stopped for all of the UK when NI went into lockdown then.
Since it's unlikely that you start a DIY in NI and end up in England, I would say there was no reason to stop them in England? But maybe I am wrong and it's actually quite a common thing to do...
If Scotland is not in lockdown, then good on them and validations can continue there... that seems a pretty straightforward way of applying the rules
Identical discussions were carried out during the first lockdown and AUK decided to suspend validations. I don't see why this time they should act differently.
Validations should have been stopped for all of the UK when NI went into lockdown then.
Identical discussions were carried out during the first lockdown and AUK decided to suspend validations. I don't see why this time they should act differently.
all of which is against the rules, as I understand (don't travel outside your area).
Calendar events are a decision for the Grown Ups, and I'm so pleased that is their decision not mine.
But perms are OK, from my reading of the rulz.
So a GdS perm will be fine, but only from my reading of the govt statement. Valuation by GPX track as usual so no receipts. Take sarnies and water.
But seems it can be done.
Provided you rode to the start of course
In England at least there is no such rule - you can travel as much as you want as long as it's for one of the listed purposes. The guiding principle is to "reduce our day-to-day contact with other people".
* given that a lot of this is leaked rather than what PMBJ said on telly last night. More will come to light once Parliament debates / agrees it.
Think the biggest problem is Boris has gone at told you whats happening last night
He's still to set it before parliament where it could be voted down, or significantly changed by amendments.
Think the biggest problem is Boris has gone at told you whats happening last night
He's still to set it before parliament where it could be voted down, or significantly changed by amendments.
Parliament will approve. Labour have already said they are going to support and there aren't enough Tory rebels to make an opposition... so it's basically a done deal...
Nobody really wants to delay things any further for political reasons at this stage
Think the biggest problem is Boris has gone at told you whats happening last night
...
Political shambles.
I can’t see that continuing to validate perms and diys is in any way contravening the rules or exploiting loopholes - and that’s not for selfish reasons since I’m ambivalent about the matter and happy to abide by whatever the AUK board decide.
Personally though, I am still happy to renew just to receive my copy of Arrivee which I always love to read. The editors are continuing to do an excellent job in producing it but with a potential loss of membership income will it still be viable to print and send it out each quarter?
I can’t see that continuing to validate perms and diys is in any way contravening the rules or exploiting loopholes - and that’s not for selfish reasons since I’m ambivalent about the matter and happy to abide by whatever the AUK board decide.
That's because you have convinced yourself that spending 12 hours outside of the house is an acceptable form of exercise and does not contravene the "stay at home" default position.
How would you feel about someone going for a 12 hour drive across a few counties, stopping 4-5 times to buy food from shops along the way? Acceptable?
Having read what Boris said last night, and thinking long and hard, I have come to the conclusion I have no option but to cancel Upper Thames, which was the first calendar event post-lockdown2. I had over 100 entries (and well-established procedures to cope with those numbers at start and finish with proper social distancing). All entrants will get an email from me in the next few hours.
Personally though, I am still happy to renew just to receive my copy of Arrivee which I always love to read. The editors are continuing to do an excellent job in producing it but with a potential loss of membership income will it still be viable to print and send it out each quarter?
Likewise... I have no plans to go back to doing Audax for the foreseeable future, but the magazine is worth the membership alone
General Validations haven't been paused for the Welsh or Northern Irish lockdowns though so the precedence is set.
The only thing I read about no validation in Wales was from CET saying which of his perms were off, but then im not in Wales and don't think there was a general announcement (if there was I didn't see the email)
There is no legally enforceable travel restrictions in Scotland (and the guide allows exercise based travel) , and Wales is reopening mid November.
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During the first lockdown I did use some of my idle time to speculate how far I could ride within my local council area without crossing my path. Basingstoke & Deane isn't huge - 633km2 - but was able to create a 344km ride. https://ridewithgps.com/routes/32602361
a willingness to look for loopholes, rather being part of the solution, which would be out of character. I do not wish to belong to an organisation that looks for loopholes for selfish purposes.That's not true: the government has specifically allowed outdoor exercise, it has gone out of its way to specify that. So we are allowed to go for a run, for a bike ride, for a walk in the country. That is specifically allowed, no question and it's obvious that the government has deliberately gone out of its way to highlight this issue.
Now - I'd be the first to agree that the phrase "exercise" means different things to different people. For some, a bike is 20 minutes and for others it's several hours. Remember that it's going to just about impossible to interact with other human beings while you're out on the bike, almost everything will be shut. So the logic is that riding a perm, and having it validated by Auk is perfectly OK.
So, no, following government guidance is not "looking for loopholes" - it's following government guidance.
This, with bells on. If people want to use a generality to shut down something that has been specifically allowed ...
... they can go get fucked.
How would you feel about someone going for a 12 hour drive across a few counties, stopping 4-5 times to buy food from shops along the way? Acceptable?This is exactly what the Prime Minister's highest adviser in the land did, and then had the cheek to say he drove 50 miles to check his eyesight. So if it's OK for him to do that it's OK for me to ride 60 miles on my bike without speaking to anyone.. ....
During the first lockdown I did use some of my idle time to speculate how far I could ride within my local council area without crossing my path. Basingstoke & Deane isn't huge - 633km2 - but was able to create a 344km ride. https://ridewithgps.com/routes/32602361
I am getting: 'The route you are trying to view is not public.'
How would you feel about someone going for a 12 hour drive across a few counties, stopping 4-5 times to buy food from shops along the way? Acceptable?This is exactly what the Prime Minister's highest adviser in the land did, and then had the cheek to say he drove 50 miles to check his eyesight. So if it's OK for him to do that it's OK for me to ride 60 miles on my bike without speaking to anyone.. ....
You really can't argue against that.
You really can't argue against that.
Audax is more than just exercise. If you don't see that then there's going to be little point continuing this discussion.
(Anyway, this is just going over the same old ground from much earlier in this thread. It wasn't resolved then either. It all became a bit of a moot point when AUK decided to suspend validations anyway.)
You really can't argue against that.
Audax is more than just exercise. If you don't see that then there's going to be little point continuing this discussion.
(Anyway, this is just going over the same old ground from much earlier in this thread. It wasn't resolved then either. It all became a bit of a moot point when AUK decided to suspend validations anyway.)
Everything is "more than just exercise". Jogging is "more than just exercise", it's jogging. Weightlifting is "more than just exercise", it's weightlifting.
You've made it abundantly clear on here already that you want everything to stop forever.
Sure, people need to exercise but, as I've said before, people don't NEED to get AUK validation for rides.
So once again, you're taking the generality over the specific exception. You're not reading the test, you're forcing your desire to ban everything into it, like the petit totalitarian you are.
Please to goodness don't ever get any power over anyone.
If audax is more than exercise and should be banned, the all the "virtual" runs are outwith the spirit of running for exercise and will have a huge clamp placed on them too.
Didn't happen in lockdown 1 if anything they were encouraged.
How would you feel about someone going for a 12 hour drive across a few counties, stopping 4-5 times to buy food from shops along the way? Acceptable?This is exactly what the Prime Minister's highest adviser in the land did, and then had the cheek to say he drove 50 miles to check his eyesight. So if it's OK for him to do that it's OK for me to ride 60 miles on my bike without speaking to anyone.. ....
This, with bells on. If people want to use a generality to shut down something that has been specifically allowed, or to make up rules that don't exist, they can go get fucked.
FWIW, my reason for cancelling Upper Thames was not because I think the new "rules" preclude anyone from riding any distance they want (though for myself, I wouldn't want to ride a 200 without the opportunity for an occasional cafe stop at which I can natter to my fellow riders). My concerns were the number of unnecessary journeys <snip>
All in all, it was not a comfortable decision; I took it with a heavy heart. <snip>
There were quite a few long distance records achieved during ‘lockdown’. They were celebrated, not decried. A few perms don’t rate.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/jul/31/i-ran-out-of-excuses-lockdown-raises-the-bar-for-uk-ultrarunners
Everybody accepted AUK’s overly-cautious position last time. Don’t assume that the same would hold true again, now that there is more knowledge of what actually increases transmission risk.
SNIP
The UK government could be specific, like the French, and give a maximum radius and duration that people can travel outside their home. They haven’t.
I agree the government guidance is contradictory if you interpret exercise by bicycle or on foot to be “unnecessary travel”. Exercise can be as frequent as you wish but travel as infrequent as possible. Also If the “minimise the time spent out of the home” applied to exercise, this would contradict the explicit encouraging of exercise.
I am not suggesting anything carries on as normal. A normal audax is coffee stops punctuated with a bit of cycling and generally a socially interactive event for most. That is not the only form of long distance cycling. I did the London marathon at the beginning of the month - it was not normal. I feel organisations should be finding ways of promoting exercise whilst staying within both the spirit and the letter of the law.
I agree the government guidance is contradictory if you interpret exercise by bicycle or on foot to be “unnecessary travel”. Exercise can be as frequent as you wish but travel as infrequent as possible. Also If the “minimise the time spent out of the home” applied to exercise, this would contradict the explicit encouraging of exercise.
I don't think anyone in government knows about audax and I accept the risks involved in the activity are for the most insignificant.
But that is not the issue. If all activities were to look for ways to carry on as normal, then the very essence of the message would be diluted to insignificance. That's why a respectable organisation, such as AUK, has to lead the way and be seen doing the right thing... even if that makes xxckall difference to the outcome of the pandemic.
Unsurprisingly there is zero traffic on the AUK forum. I suspect that they will need to see the full set of rules and guidance from BC.
As for the rest of the debate I'll say the same thing I said to an ex-clubmate who took great exception to me riding outdoors during lockdown 1. What you can't do is make up your own set of additional rules and then tell me that I have to abide by them.
Unsurprisingly there is zero traffic on the AUK forum. I suspect that they will need to see the full set of rules and guidance from BC.
As for the rest of the debate I'll say the same thing I said to an ex-clubmate who took great exception to me riding outdoors during lockdown 1. What you can't do is make up your own set of additional rules and then tell me that I have to abide by them.
Sometimes, you have to be seen doing the right thing... see it as a quid pro quo. Let's say that for instance CTT decided to carry on as normal, as after all there is no mixing, there is social distance and all of that... how will then a request for a road closure for a National event be received by the local authorities next year?
Do the right thing, be seen leading the way making positive change and you'll be rewarded... or otherwise, be seen ignoring the lockdown because you think it doesn't apply to your activity and you'll face the consequences... might be LEL not be allowed to go ahead in 2022 or brevets be subject to stricter rules on risk assessment, to make them unviable for organisers...
Carrying on as normal would be calendar brevets with 100+ riders starting at the same time and socialising indoors. Limited distance perms (no overnights) ridden with household members or one other is adjusting to match the English restrictions.
Promoting exercise, outdoor exercise in particular, is a key government goal and doing the right thing is important. It is not a binary choice between stopping everything and carrying on as normal. Organisations need to find the correct middle ground.Unsurprisingly there is zero traffic on the AUK forum. I suspect that they will need to see the full set of rules and guidance from BC.
As for the rest of the debate I'll say the same thing I said to an ex-clubmate who took great exception to me riding outdoors during lockdown 1. What you can't do is make up your own set of additional rules and then tell me that I have to abide by them.
Sometimes, you have to be seen doing the right thing... see it as a quid pro quo. Let's say that for instance CTT decided to carry on as normal, as after all there is no mixing, there is social distance and all of that... how will then a request for a road closure for a National event be received by the local authorities next year?
Do the right thing, be seen leading the way making positive change and you'll be rewarded... or otherwise, be seen ignoring the lockdown because you think it doesn't apply to your activity and you'll face the consequences... might be LEL not be allowed to go ahead in 2022 or brevets be subject to stricter rules on risk assessment, to make them unviable for organisers...
Your objection is to people likely visiting shops during the ride rather than the ride itself?Agreed, and now we are into November and the cost weather, less water is required on a ride. Its quite easy to carry enough calories for 200km, caring water is more difficult.
That's at least a reasonable position and arguably supported by the rules. But the solution to that is to encourage/require GPS validation and self-sufficiency rather than suspending validation altogether.
FWIW, my reason for cancelling Upper Thames was not because I think the new "rules" preclude anyone from riding any distance they want (though for myself, I wouldn't want to ride a 200 without the opportunity for an occasional cafe stop at which I can natter to my fellow riders). My concerns were the number of unnecessary journeys, with many of the entrants coming from Greater London and the Midlands, as well as from closer to the start, and more particularly the number of entrants, at over 100, would make it difficult to argue the numbers interacting at the start and finish. This despite the careful planning that I had done to spread start times over a 1 1/2 hour period. And it is unclear whether I would have been able to have any helpers other than my wife.While it was disappointing, I don't feel there was even a decision here. Calendar Events will be banned, all you would have done is delay confirmation of what is the right decision
All in all, it was not a comfortable decision; I took it with a heavy heart. Interestingly I have had many responses from the email I sent to entrants this afternoon telling them it was cancelled. Not one has indicated any criticism of the decision. One is going to ride it anyway as a perm (starting near his home), which I think is great
Of course the actual guidance from the government says
If the guidance says "You should avoid travelling in or out of your local area, and you should look to reduce the number of journeys you make." you still really take that to mean that exercise is really unlimited?
Sure, people need to exercise but, as I've said before, people don't NEED to get AUK validation for rides. By all means do whatever level of exercise you think is necessary but the general concept of a lockdown is for people to do enough exercise to keep healthy (both physically and mentally). It's not a carte blanche to go to town on things. This isn't the time to selfishly try and maintain some way above average level of fitness (unless you can do that from the safety of your turbo in your own home).
The legislation/guidance will never be specific about this because extreme levels of exercise like this is such an absolute niche that they'd never think they would do.
the point of a lockdown should be to minimise your time outside
but the point of a lockdown should be to minimise your time outsideI guess this is a / the point of contention? My priority is minimising contact with other people, especially indoors. Spending an hour in a gym (assuming that is still allowed in the UK) is, in my view, way more risky for me and other people than spending 10 hours on a bicycle by myself. In the same vein as I see driving (your car) 50 miles to buy groceries for a whole week is advisable over going to a local shop every day even if that's just a 2 mile bike ride.
I can't see any change in the ability to run events here in Scotland for Scotland based riders given the new rules apply to only England.
My event from this past Saturday had to be weather postponed to this coming Saturday. I guess the big question will be if AUK puts in place a one rule for all approach again or regional guidance as they did with the season restart.
OK, last time before I just put the thread/forum on ignore.
Yes, I know what the full regulations say. And my whole point is that one doesn't "NEED" to do Audax. Therefore one doesn't "NEED" to travel that much/far.
I agree that everyone should do some exercise (for both physical and mental health reasons), but the point of a lockdown should be to minimise your time outside. This doesn't mean no exercise at all, but then it also doesn't mean unnecessary/excessive exercise.
(And done...)
It would be of questionable legality as it could be ruled anti-welsh and anti-irish.I can't see any change in the ability to run events here in Scotland for Scotland based riders given the new rules apply to only England.
My event from this past Saturday had to be weather postponed to this coming Saturday. I guess the big question will be if AUK puts in place a one rule for all approach again or regional guidance as they did with the season restart.
Other parts of the UK have gone into lockdown at various points since August, and the one rule for all approach wasn't implimented then. I would be saddened if that changed now.
Your objection is to people likely visiting shops during the ride rather than the ride itself?
That's at least a reasonable position and arguably supported by the rules. But the solution to that is to encourage/require GPS validation and self-sufficiency rather than suspending validation altogether.
but the point of a lockdown should be to minimise your time outsideI guess this is a / the point of contention? My priority is minimising contact with other people, especially indoors.
2. Staying safe outside the home (Social Distancing)
You should minimise time spent outside your home and when around other people ensure that you are two metres apart from anyone not in your household or support bubble.
Remember - ‘Hands. Face. Space’:
* hands – wash your hands regularly and for 20 seconds
* face – wear a face covering in indoor settings where social distancing may be difficult, and where you will come into contact with people you do not normally meet
* space – stay 2 metres apart from people you do not live with where possible, or 1 metre with extra precautions in place (such as wearing face coverings or increasing ventilation indoors)
As I posted back in April, my reluctance to do long rides during a hard lockdown has more to do with the risk (albeit negligible) of having a mechanical that required either outside assistance or the use of public transport. Nothing to do with the risk of transmitting outdoors.
As Greenbank says, everyone will interpret the rules to suit themselves. My personal judgement is that I shouldn't do "long" rides away from home.
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As I posted back in April, my reluctance to do long rides during a hard lockdown has more to do with the risk (albeit negligible) of having a mechanical that required either outside assistance or the use of public transport. Nothing to do with the risk of transmitting outdoors.
As Greenbank says, everyone will interpret the rules to suit themselves. My personal judgement is that I shouldn't do "long" rides away from home.
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+1
Or have a accident miles/that’s kilometres away from home
It’s up to everyone to use there own common sense .
Where do I suggest my decision has ànything to do with government distànce guidelines?As I posted back in April, my reluctance to do long rides during a hard lockdown has more to do with the risk (albeit negligible) of having a mechanical that required either outside assistance or the use of public transport. Nothing to do with the risk of transmitting outdoors.
As Greenbank says, everyone will interpret the rules to suit themselves. My personal judgement is that I shouldn't do "long" rides away from home.
Sent from my K10 using Tapatalk
+1
Or have a accident miles/that’s kilometres away from home
It’s up to everyone to use there own common sense .
Which points towards an explicit limit by the UK government on distance or time away from home which has not been created, unlike other countries.
It's all well and good talking about people doing successful 200k rides from their home, and not stopping. But what about all the times when that doesn't work. If you go out on an out and back 200, and 100km from home have a terminal mechanical that means you need to either call a taxi, or use public transport, you are dramatically increasing your exposure level.
I do not believe it is within the spirit of the law, even if it's within the letter, for AUK to validate any ride if there is a lockdown, which England is about to enter. If you must have validation to get you to go out for a bike ride, maybe look at the strava challenges.
J
Ignites fire...
I can do an out and back 200km within hypothetically 12km of home.
...and runs!
It's all well and good talking about people doing successful 200k rides from their home, and not stopping. But what about all the times when that doesn't work. If you go out on an out and back 200, and 100km from home have a terminal mechanical that means you need to either call a taxi, or use public transport, you are dramatically increasing your exposure level.
I do not believe it is within the spirit of the law, even if it's within the letter, for AUK to validate any ride if there is a lockdown, which England is about to enter.
You're multiplying a small probability (ride ending mechanical, which I haven't had in living memory) by a small probability (catching or spreading the 'vid on a likely empty train). Negligible.
Hypothetically at least they've been validating them during Wales and NI's current lockdowns.
It's all well and good talking about people doing successful 200k rides from their home, and not stopping. But what about all the times when that doesn't work. If you go out on an out and back 200, and 100km from home have a terminal mechanical that means you need to either call a taxi, or use public transport, you are dramatically increasing your exposure level.
You're multiplying a small probability (ride ending mechanical, which I haven't had in living memory) by a small probability (catching or spreading the 'vid on a likely empty train). Negligible.
The overall probability of catching or passing on covid whilst cycling is going to be very low even when factoring in the risk associated with requiring rescue as long as the probability of requiring rescue is low enough. If say you need rescue on 1% of your rides and the chance of a covid infection on a particular rescue is 1% then the chance of covid due to rescue on a bike ride is 0.01%. Touch wood I have never required rescue (apart from the time I need an ambulance but I was only about 1km from home when that happened).
It's all well and good talking about people doing successful 200k rides from their home, and not stopping. But what about all the times when that doesn't work. If you go out on an out and back 200, and 100km from home have a terminal mechanical that means you need to either call a taxi, or use public transport, you are dramatically increasing your exposure level.
I do not believe it is within the spirit of the law, even if it's within the letter, for AUK to validate any ride if there is a lockdown, which England is about to enter. If you must have validation to get you to go out for a bike ride, maybe look at the strava challenges.
J
I could make some fatuous point about how the vast majority of accidents happen in the home, but I don't think that would be a useful contribution to the discussion. ;)Being equally fatuous, so do the majority of covid infections.
Perms should continue but with the onus being on riders to abide by the 'must stay in primary residence' and 'ride with only your household or one other when alone' restrictions.This ^^^
Ha ha...it doesnt take a global pandemic. In fact it doesn't take anything.
Im still reeling at AB calling Greenbank "flocculent" :o
Ha ha...it doesnt take a global pandemic. In fact it doesn't take anything.
It usually takes prolonged shit weather, so I think the underlying problem is people not getting to ride their bikes enough.
And the fact that people on this thread are telling us not to ?
It usually takes prolonged shit weather, so I think the underlying problem is people not getting to ride their bikes enough.
Who’d have thought that a global pandemic would make the cycling community turn in on itself and resort to name calling ?
Personally I think those who don't want to share the animal and microbial kingdom with the rest of us should be removed to Australia where they can carry on doing their own thing, and everyone else can get on just fine.
No one is telling us not to ride our bikes. For most here 200km is a normal day out. However none of us need validation and I can see why being seeing to encourage a 200km ride, which most people, right or wrong, would see as stretching the exercise guidance should not be encouraged by Audax UK. Go out and ride your bike, but these are not normal times
It is up to the individual to decide whether they want to ride 200 km or not... it is up to them to interpret the rules. But it's not AUK's role to do so.Now, the bold bit, I agree with. The gov make the rules (just like the ones about not stabbing each-other, or drink-driving), and being adults we get on with life within them.
Validations should (and will) be suspended
<snip>Absolute nonsense!
Sure some people can do cloverleaf loops that mean they are never more than 25km away from home and don't have to visit shops or toilets other than their own home and have no interaction with other humans, but AUK can't guarantee that will happen for EVERYONE if they continue to validate 200km+ DIYs and Perms. That's one of the reasons they suspended validations last time round.
As for AUK's stance. I guess we'll see what it is. The same arguments were made for/against validation in the previous lockdown and everyone seemed to accept the decision made by AUK to suspend validations then.
What I don't understand is how you leap to the idea that AUK *should* interpret the rules by choosing when to validate rides. Are AUK the police? (Or a version of the police that runs a public opinion poll every few weeks to decide which laws to enforce?)
What I don't understand is how you leap to the idea that AUK *should* interpret the rules by choosing when to validate rides. Are AUK the police? (Or a version of the police that runs a public opinion poll every few weeks to decide which laws to enforce?)
AUK cannot guarantee a brevet will be carried out following the rules and guidelines of a national lockdown, so staying local for instance, avoiding retail outlets in other areas etc.
If they can't guarantee that, then they can't cover the activity and risk being in a liable position... so the only wise thing to do is to withdraw validations, unless they want to rewrite the rulebook of a brevet in two days.
As I said earlier, we could have thought of a "lockdown-proof" way to carry out validations for short local brevets, but we didn't do anything along those lines, so we are where we are. It's 4 weeks of non validated cycling, get over it
AUK cannot guarantee a brevet will be carried out following the rules and guidelines of a national lockdown, so staying local for instance, avoiding retail outlets in other areas etc.or cycling through red traffic lights, or without lights ...
Wouldn't it be time to remove those rude users as well those rude posts?
AUK's role in this is not something that can be handled by a disclaimer.I don’t understand your argumentIf you don't suspend validation and consequently things like SRs and RRTY then some people are going to feel pressured into going out and doing a ride that they didn't want to do before, because they don't want to lose their X year streak, or disappear further down or off some leaderboard on a non-competitive cycling website.
- People are being asked to minimise their time outside.
- Exercise is an exception to this, yes
- But, by continuing to offer validation for rides, AUK is effectively encouraging some people to do things that they wouldn't normally do.
AUK's role in this is not something that can be handled by a disclaimer.I don’t understand your argumentIf you don't suspend validation and consequently things like SRs and RRTY then some people are going to feel pressured into going out and doing a ride that they didn't want to do before, because they don't want to lose their X year streak, or disappear further down or off some leaderboard on a non-competitive cycling website.
- People are being asked to minimise their time outside.
- Exercise is an exception to this, yes
- But, by continuing to offer validation for rides, AUK is effectively encouraging some people to do things that they wouldn't normally do.
People are being asked to minimise time outside
Exercise is is an exception to this
Therefore encouraging people to exercise outside is wrong ?
Only shops selling essentials can stay open
Selling online is an exception to this
Therefore encouraging people to shop online for nonessentials is wrong ?
AUK cannot guarantee a brevet will be carried out following the rules and guidelines of a national lockdown, so staying local for instance, avoiding retail outlets in other areas etc.
If they can't guarantee that, then they can't cover the activity and risk being in a liable position...
by continuing to offer validation for rides, AUK is effectively encouraging some people to do things that they wouldn't normally do.
Park run are doing “not a park run” which is a validation of 5km runs to encourage people to unnecessarily go running during lockdown. My concern is that by suspending validation of rides it is giving the impression that going on long cycle rides is to be discouraged during lockdown. During the original lockdown at the start when there were indications that exercise should be limited in duration I was doing 40-50km rides every day - around 200-300km per week. When the duration hints were removed and we were told exercise was unlimited in duration I started doing 200km rides once a week.AUK's role in this is not something that can be handled by a disclaimer.I don’t understand your argumentIf you don't suspend validation and consequently things like SRs and RRTY then some people are going to feel pressured into going out and doing a ride that they didn't want to do before, because they don't want to lose their X year streak, or disappear further down or off some leaderboard on a non-competitive cycling website.
- People are being asked to minimise their time outside.
- Exercise is an exception to this, yes
- But, by continuing to offer validation for rides, AUK is effectively encouraging some people to do things that they wouldn't normally do.
People are being asked to minimise time outside
Exercise is is an exception to this
Therefore encouraging people to exercise outside is wrong ?
Only shops selling essentials can stay open
Selling online is an exception to this
Therefore encouraging people to shop online for nonessentials is wrong ?
I think he is saying that exercise is not wrong.
But that continuing with an artificial (and unnecessary in a lockdown) points-based 'competition' that puts pressure on those that do not wish to or cannot go out in this way is wrong.
AUK cannot guarantee a brevet will be carried out following the rules and guidelines of a national lockdown, so staying local for instance, avoiding retail outlets in other areas etc.
If they can't guarantee that, then they can't cover the activity and risk being in a liable position...
I'm broadly sympathetic to this argument, but I would counter it by pointing out that there's already a large amount of trust involved in running audax events in normal circumstances - AUK is unable to guarantee that riders will follow the normal rules about riding on public roads during events, eg things like jumping traffic lights, using lights after dark etc etc etc. [ETA: reading back through the thread, I see Davef has already made exactly the same point!]
You can enforce the rules up to a point, but beyond that you just have to trust riders to be able to make their own decisions and behave as law-abiding citizens.
On the question of liability, is there any precedent for AUK being held liable for misdemeanours committed by riders on any of its events?
Points-led AUK competitions have already been suspended, many months ago. There will be no trophies for getting the most points. Suspending validations now (or not) has no bearing on that.
The solution to RLJ is simple... don't do it. What is your solution to "stay local" in a 200 km brevet?
Park run are doing “not a park run” which is a validation of 5km runs to encourage people to unnecessarily go running during lockdown. My concern is that by suspending validation of rides it is giving the impression that going on long cycle rides is to be discouraged during lockdown. During the original lockdown at the start when there were indications that exercise should be limited in duration I was doing 40-50km rides every day - around 200-300km per week. When the duration hints were removed and we were told exercise was unlimited in duration I started doing 200km rides once a week.AUK's role in this is not something that can be handled by a disclaimer.I don’t understand your argumentIf you don't suspend validation and consequently things like SRs and RRTY then some people are going to feel pressured into going out and doing a ride that they didn't want to do before, because they don't want to lose their X year streak, or disappear further down or off some leaderboard on a non-competitive cycling website.
- People are being asked to minimise their time outside.
- Exercise is an exception to this, yes
- But, by continuing to offer validation for rides, AUK is effectively encouraging some people to do things that they wouldn't normally do.
People are being asked to minimise time outside
Exercise is is an exception to this
Therefore encouraging people to exercise outside is wrong ?
Only shops selling essentials can stay open
Selling online is an exception to this
Therefore encouraging people to shop online for nonessentials is wrong ?
I think he is saying that exercise is not wrong.
But that continuing with an artificial (and unnecessary in a lockdown) points-based 'competition' that puts pressure on those that do not wish to or cannot go out in this way is wrong.
Points-led AUK competitions have already been suspended, many months ago. There will be no trophies for getting the most points. Suspending validations now (or not) has no bearing on that.
Neatly emphasising the point.
There's no point in collecting points apart from personal, so there's no need for any National body to validate them. Collect them in your heads.
Points-led AUK competitions have already been suspended, many months ago. There will be no trophies for getting the most points. Suspending validations now (or not) has no bearing on that.
Neatly emphasising the point.
There's no point in collecting points apart from personal, so there's no need for any National body to validate them. Collect them in your heads.
Missing the point entirely, I see.
People would like validated brevets (which might be 50km, 100km or longer) for reasons that have nothing to do with AUK competitions. Don’t use collecting points for competitions (which don’t currently exist) as a reason to stop validations.
AUK cannot guarantee a brevet will be carried out following the rules and guidelines of a national lockdown, so staying local for instance, avoiding retail outlets in other areas etc.They've never been able to guarantee that. Any argument you make that is predicated on that, is false. You are an adult, what you do out on a bike ride is your own responsibility.
If they can't guarantee that, then they can't cover the activity and risk being in a liable position...Rule 1 for life: if anyone raises insurance liability to try to justify a restrictive argument that they've already dug in on, they're talking rubbish, don't have a clue what their insurance contract says and are idly speculating.
The only time I have needed rescuing recently was a mechanical failure in my right achilles when running.Park run are doing “not a park run” which is a validation of 5km runs to encourage people to unnecessarily go running during lockdown. My concern is that by suspending validation of rides it is giving the impression that going on long cycle rides is to be discouraged during lockdown. During the original lockdown at the start when there were indications that exercise should be limited in duration I was doing 40-50km rides every day - around 200-300km per week. When the duration hints were removed and we were told exercise was unlimited in duration I started doing 200km rides once a week.AUK's role in this is not something that can be handled by a disclaimer.I don’t understand your argumentIf you don't suspend validation and consequently things like SRs and RRTY then some people are going to feel pressured into going out and doing a ride that they didn't want to do before, because they don't want to lose their X year streak, or disappear further down or off some leaderboard on a non-competitive cycling website.
- People are being asked to minimise their time outside.
- Exercise is an exception to this, yes
- But, by continuing to offer validation for rides, AUK is effectively encouraging some people to do things that they wouldn't normally do.
People are being asked to minimise time outside
Exercise is is an exception to this
Therefore encouraging people to exercise outside is wrong ?
Only shops selling essentials can stay open
Selling online is an exception to this
Therefore encouraging people to shop online for nonessentials is wrong ?
I think he is saying that exercise is not wrong.
But that continuing with an artificial (and unnecessary in a lockdown) points-based 'competition' that puts pressure on those that do not wish to or cannot go out in this way is wrong.
Parkrun: 5km 15 - 60 minutes. No equipment.
Audax: Minimum 200km. Up to 12 hours, more for longer distances. Cycle capable of not having a mechanical over distance.
Not comparable.
Cycle Ride: Do it as you personally see fit...
I’d love to know what these people who think arbitrary validations don’t matter are doing hanging round the audax forum.
I’d love to know what these people who think arbitrary validations don’t matter are doing hanging round the audax forum.
@grams means this sub-forum @JadedI’d love to know what these people who think arbitrary validations don’t matter are doing hanging round the audax forum.Having just had a look at the Audax Forum, I can't see much activity there. Who are these people?
@grams means this sub-forum @JadedI’d love to know what these people who think arbitrary validations don’t matter are doing hanging round the audax forum.Having just had a look at the Audax Forum, I can't see much activity there. Who are these people?
I’d love to know what these people who think arbitrary validations don’t matter are doing hanging round the audax forum.
You don't have to be currently riding Audaxes to have an opinion on such matters.
Or do you think there should be a minimum criteria for posting in such a thread?
You don't have to be currently riding Audaxes to have an opinion on such matters.
Or do you think there should be a minimum criteria for posting in such a thread?
Anyone is welcome to post here. But yelling "arbitrary validations don't matter" at a bunch of audaxers is somewhat bus_wankers.gif, yes?
However, rules are not there for selective interpretation. If we are being asked not to travel away from home area we should not regard ourselves as exceptions. Otherwise Dominic Cummings was right.
However, rules are not there for selective interpretation. If we are being asked not to travel away from home area we should not regard ourselves as exceptions. Otherwise Dominic Cummings was right.
Totally agree with this. The sticking point is whether or not the rule on leaving your local area applies to doing so for exercise purposes. Some think it does, some don't. It's a grey area and I don't think anyone can claim that their interpretation is definitive either way.
(Unlike France, say, where there's an explicit rule on how far you're allowed to be from your home for *any* purpose.)
If it is a grey area, as you seem to imply, shouldn't AUK stay on the safe side of the grey area, for the sake of avoiding being targeted by future policies on "cycling events"
As you are an organiser, you should have realised how easily you get away with 3 lines in a risk assessment for your Audax events. Spare a thought for those organising races or large sportives, who need to risk assess everything, in documents which are the size of a book
I have also read( cant remember were now) that cycling uk (ctc) have asked the government for a clear answer on how far people should ride from home and for how long....... Could be interesting.
a) A Gove like figure plucking a number like "an hour a day" based on his vast years of experience of being an utter twat
I have also read( cant remember were now) that cycling uk (ctc) have asked the government for a clear answer on how far people should ride from home and for how long....... Could be interesting.
FWIW I think the situation is different from march as we now know that fomite transmission is rare, and we know that outside activity is relatively safe. Thus my belief is that long distance riding is not risky.
FWIW I think the situation is different from march as we now know that fomite transmission is rare, and we know that outside activity is relatively safe. Thus my belief is that long distance riding is not risky.I agree your 'FWIW' @Flats. Long distance riding is not risky for the rider, nor does it increase the risk for others.
However, rules are not there for selective interpretation. If we are being asked not to travel away from home area we should not regard ourselves as exceptions.
... if the guidance is go for as long as you want and how far as you like,
... if the guidance is go for as long as you want and how far as you like,
"unlimited"
I just resent being told that I can't do things, particularly when they are low risk.
a) A Gove like figure plucking a number like "an hour a day" based on his vast years of experience of being an utter twat
There was no legal basis to that, and I basically ignored it.
What we get is things like people complaining about cyclists riding through the town square (on an NCN route) and that "they can't be local, they're wearing lycra".
I just resent being told that I can't do things, particularly when they are low risk.I'm sure 99% of the population feel the same, audaxers or otherwise.
The fact that some are concerned about what the PM will advise as acceptable exercise (asking for trouble) suggests we all in reality believe that a 200 km ride is probably not within the intentions of a lockdown.
I will probably ride 1-2 hours a day staying reasonably local (certainly within the county) like I did in Lockdown 1.0, irrespective of what Gove or other will say.
a) A Gove like figure plucking a number like "an hour a day" based on his vast years of experience of being an utter twat
There was no legal basis to that, and I basically ignored it.
So if the guidance ends up being something like 'no more than 10 miles' (based on the perfectly rational belief that no sane person would ever cycle any further than that), would you be happy to break that rule?
The fact that some are concerned about what the PM will advise as acceptable exercise (asking for trouble) suggests we all in reality believe that a 200 km ride is probably not within the intentions of a lockdown.At the start of the last lockdown exercise was to be reasonable and limited to once per day. Later, whilst lockdown still continued, it was changed specifically to be unlimited and as often as you wish, but not overnight. I think this was around the time the legislation changed from saying what you could do to what you couldn’t. I too would like clarification even if it does not meet my expectations of unlimited duration or frequency this time around. I disagree however the guidelines are for individuals to choose to follow or not. They are much like the Highway Code and are illustrating how the legislation should objectively be understood.
That said, clarity is a good thing, then you can make up your mind whether you as an individual want to stick to the guidelines or not.
I will probably ride 1-2 hours a day staying reasonably local (certainly within the county) like I did in Lockdown 1.0, irrespective of what Gove or other will say.
AUK of course will have to stick to the guidelines... if the guidance is go for as long as you want and how far as you like, then I see no reason not to continue with the validations... it probably won't happen though.
At the start of the last lockdown exercise was to be reasonable and limited to once per day.
# There was nothing in guidance or legislation about the time of day you could exercise. You just weren’t allowed to spend a night away in accommodation other than your primary residence.
Later, whilst lockdown still continued, it was changed specifically to be unlimited and as often as you wish, but not overnight.
I was not suggesting there was anything mentioning the time of day it was indeed the overnight stay I was referring to that effective curtailed the unlimited nature of the exercise during 5e second half of lockdown. The original legislation was phrased around reasonable excuse. Reasonable excuse in law means objectively reasonable, ie what a “normal” person would consider reasonable. This is similar to the phrasing of the law with respect to say careless driving. Nowhere in statute does it say overtaking on the inside is careless. I believe a 200km audax would not be considered reasonable exercise, however it would be ok under unlimited exercise. We will see in the next few days.
At the start of the last lockdown exercise was to be reasonable and limited to once per day.
# Guidance was once a day, but nothing in the legislation, there was no guidance on duration just idle opinion from Gove when asked.# There was nothing in guidance or legislation about the time of day you could exercise. You just weren’t allowed to spend a night away in accommodation other than your primary residence.
Later, whilst lockdown still continued, it was changed specifically to be unlimited and as often as you wish, but not overnight.
Yes, I would... but I wouldn't want to be part of an organisation that doesn't play by the rules... it might be difficult to understand, but it's actually quite an important difference.
If you have a terminal mechanical on a ride it doesn't make a lot of difference whether you are 20 50 or 100k from home you are going to have to use public or private transport to get homeThink the idea is that of you're about 5 miles you may walk it or have someone you live with come out and get you, the further away you are the more need to involve other households.
I wouldn't hold my breath on getting a more detailed definition of unlimited exercise from HMG before 2.12.20
If you have a terminal mechanical on a ride it doesn't make a lot of difference whether you are 20 50 or 100k from home you are going to have to use public or private transport to get home. The same probably holds if have an accident.I agree re the walking home, any more than a couple of miles and I would be phoning the recovery bubble. However, does it say “unlimited” this time around ? I thought I had seen it can’t see that anywhere written anymore, but I may have overlooked it. I thought the clarification wanted is whether it is unlimited and only if not, what are the limits.
I wouldn't hold my breath on getting a more detailed definition of unlimited exercise from HMG before 2.12.20
I was not suggesting there was anything mentioning the time of day it was indeed the overnight stay I was referring to that effective curtailed the unlimited nature of the exercise during 5e second half of lockdown. The original legislation was phrased around reasonable excuse. Reasonable excuse in law means objectively reasonable, ie what a “normal” person would consider reasonable. This is similar to the phrasing of the law with respect to say careless driving. Nowhere in statute does it say overtaking on the inside is careless. I believe a 200km audax would not be considered reasonable exercise, however it would be ok under unlimited exercise. We will see in the next few days.
At the start of the last lockdown exercise was to be reasonable and limited to once per day.
# Guidance was once a day, but nothing in the legislation, there was no guidance on duration just idle opinion from Gove when asked.# There was nothing in guidance or legislation about the time of day you could exercise. You just weren’t allowed to spend a night away in accommodation other than your primary residence.
Later, whilst lockdown still continued, it was changed specifically to be unlimited and as often as you wish, but not overnight.
Many people? I bet it's few enough that they gave it no thought whatsoever when drawing up the regulations.The fact that some are concerned about what the PM will advise as acceptable exercise (asking for trouble) suggests we all in reality believe that a 200 km ride is probably not within the intentions of a lockdown.
No, the fear is that they will make up an arbitrary low limit that reflects a lack of appreciation of what is actually quite normal for many people.QuoteI will probably ride 1-2 hours a day staying reasonably local (certainly within the county) like I did in Lockdown 1.0, irrespective of what Gove or other will say.
So if the guidance ends up being something like 'no more than 10 miles' (based on the perfectly rational belief that no sane person would ever cycle any further than that), would you be happy to break that rule?
This thread is coming across as far too English-centric.Speaking as an AUK in central* England, I completely support this.
When other home countries were under lockdowns there were not calls to suspend validations.
L1 and L2 areas of Scotland have no restrictions in place which would prohibit randonneuring and I think Audax should be encouraged in areas where it is safe to do so.
OK, pretend I said "most people".Ok, amendment accepted.
If every decision had to have unanimous support then no decisions would ever get made.
However, you seem to be saying that suspension was accepted by:
- People who tend to keep their head down and accept decisions by volunteers/organisers/elected officials, and -
- a bunch of people who didn't want to do a thing (that was harmless and probably entirely legal), and wanted to stop others doing it.
Is that a fair summary?
Well Whitty and Valance were very positive about exercise during this pandemic on a select committee this afternoon but, as they had to point out numerous times, they don't create policy, they just inform those who go on to create policy.
I think there was an acceptance that the people responsible had made the decision and resignation to that im not convinced most people agreed with the decision, it was much more evenly split than that.However, you seem to be saying that suspension was accepted by:
- People who tend to keep their head down and accept decisions by volunteers/organisers/elected officials, and -
- a bunch of people who didn't want to do a thing (that was harmless and probably entirely legal), and wanted to stop others doing it.
Is that a fair summary?
Nope.
I don't know the thinking of every person (or any but myself really) but it seemed to be fairly well accepted on here and on the AUK forum.
Under the new restrictions cycling and being active is still strongly encouraged, but there are a number of rules which we must all follow:
<snip>
There are no restrictions on how far or how often you can ride, however we recommend that you stay within your ability level and prepare accordingly, especially if you are riding alone.
CTT have just sent an email to suspend all events in England during the lockdown
In fact, I don't think they organise or govern ANY Audax activities. Can you confirm Karla?CTT have just sent an email to suspend all events in England during the lockdown
CTT don't do perms thobut
AUK has suspended all events for November - Board was waiting to see whether there was anything significant that came out of the debate today but is following guidance from British Cycling.Has this been announced on the Audax UK site, please? I have looked at the News https://audax.uk/news/ and in the Forum.
The position on perms needs to be clarified and the Board hasn't had a chance to meet and agree today, so it's probably best not to assume that one undertaken before that clarification - which will be soon - is made.
I disagree, I think the sentence on permanentsAUK has suspended all events for November - Board was waiting to see whether there was anything significant that came out of the debate today but is following guidance from British Cycling.Has this been announced on the Audax UK site, please? I have looked at the News https://audax.uk/news/ and in the Forum.
The position on perms needs to be clarified and the Board hasn't had a chance to meet and agree today, so it's probably best not to assume that one undertaken before that clarification - which will be soon - is made.
Your sentence on Permanents seems inadvertently incomplete.
I disagree, I think the sentence on permanentsAUK has suspended all events for November - Board was waiting to see whether there was anything significant that came out of the debate today but is following guidance from British Cycling.Has this been announced on the Audax UK site, please? I have looked at the News https://audax.uk/news/ and in the Forum.
The position on perms needs to be clarified and the Board hasn't had a chance to meet and agree today, so it's probably best not to assume that one undertaken before that clarification - which will be soon - is made.
Your sentence on Permanents seems inadvertently incomplete.
CTT have just sent an email to suspend all events in England during the lockdown
In fact, I don't think they organise or govern ANY Audax activities. Can you confirm Karla?CTT have just sent an email to suspend all events in England during the lockdown
CTT don't do perms thobut
That would be appreciated :thumbsup: And just that I have the terminology right: perms == diy ?
That would be appreciated :thumbsup: And just that I have the terminology right: perms == diy ?
Identical discussions were carried out during the first lockdown and AUK decided to suspend validations. I don't see why this time they should act differently.
At the time the situation was much less clear and the government were making (informal) recommendations about limiting duration of exercise. Validation was suspended because it was prudent until the situation became clearer, not because it was necessarily required.Quoteall of which is against the rules, as I understand (don't travel outside your area).
In England at least there is no such rule - you can travel as much as you want as long as it's for one of the listed purposes. The guiding principle is to "reduce our day-to-day contact with other people".
11. Travel
If you live in England, you cannot travel overseas or within the UK, unless for work, education or other legally permitted reasons, and you should look to reduce the number of journeys you make. However you can and should still travel for a number of reasons, including:
...
* to spend time or exercise outdoors - this should be done locally wherever possible, but you can travel to do so if necessary (for example, to access an open space)
...
Somewhat disappointed by AUK's decision.
However, I have informed the perm secretary that I do not intend to validate my perm for the duration of the English lockdown... apparently I wasn't the first to make such a request
Somewhat disappointed by AUK's decision.
I think that is fairly clear “travel” in this context is travel to the start of your exercise or recreation (like the Welsh - “you can cycle as far as you want but start and finish from home”). I believe the motivation is to avoid crowds congregating at busy places and avoiding public transport (it does also say that this travel is best undertaken on foot or by bike). Perhaps AUK should reiterate this and say “whenever possible you should choose a perm starting near your home”. There were similar guidelines as to whether an excuse was reasonable issued to the police last time and they would not issue a fixed penalty unless the travel time exceeded the exercise time.Identical discussions were carried out during the first lockdown and AUK decided to suspend validations. I don't see why this time they should act differently.
At the time the situation was much less clear and the government were making (informal) recommendations about limiting duration of exercise. Validation was suspended because it was prudent until the situation became clearer, not because it was necessarily required.Quoteall of which is against the rules, as I understand (don't travel outside your area).
In England at least there is no such rule - you can travel as much as you want as long as it's for one of the listed purposes. The guiding principle is to "reduce our day-to-day contact with other people".
The Guidance has been updated:-
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-national-restrictions-from-5-november#travelQuote11. Travel
If you live in England, you cannot travel overseas or within the UK, unless for work, education or other legally permitted reasons, and you should look to reduce the number of journeys you make. However you can and should still travel for a number of reasons, including:
...
* to spend time or exercise outdoors - this should be done locally wherever possible, but you can travel to do so if necessary (for example, to access an open space)
...
I don't intend to ride longer anyways; last weekend I attempted a 600 for a last minute SR qualification but rain and electronic gremlins were enough to dissolve my motivation and I scratched half way.
I think that is fairly clear “travel” in this context is travel to the start of your exercise or recreation (like the Welsh - “you can cycle as far as you want but start and finish from home”). I believe the motivation is to avoid crowds congregating at busy places and avoiding public transport (it does also say that this travel is best undertaken on foot or by bike). Perhaps AUK should reiterate this and say “whenever possible you should choose a perm starting near your home”. There were similar guidelines as to whether an excuse was reasonable issued to the police last time and they would not issue a fixed penalty unless the travel time exceeded the exercise time.
Are there any limits on how far I can run or cycle for exercise?
There are no limits on the distance you can travel during exercise, though the nearer you stay to your home, the better. Your exercise should start and finish from your home and you should exercise alone or with a member of your household.
The key bit is not the nearer you stay to your home the better because it is not the law. The key bits, because they are the law, are that there are no limits on your exercise and you should (must is the correct term) only exercise alone, with members of your household or one other person. It does not require interpretation. AUK has of course spoken as they are perfectly entitled to do.
The Welsh guidance is more restrictive. It says exercise must start and finish from home and though you can go as far as you like it would be better to stay local.The key bit is not the nearer you stay to your home the better because it is not the law. The key bits, because they are the law, are that there are no limits on your exercise and you should (must is the correct term) only exercise alone, with members of your household or one other person. It does not require interpretation. AUK has of course spoken as they are perfectly entitled to do.
If you choose to ignore the guidance and just look at the legislation then yes, you could choose to interpret how to live in society that way. Good luck with that.
In other news,
I went for a short ride and as I expected, this lockdown is very different from the previous. Traffic is probably 70% of normal, as opposed to 20% of early April.
I wonder where the Fxxk is everybody rushing to...
Last time it took the last week of March before everyone had reached toilet roll storage capacity.In other news,
I went for a short ride and as I expected, this lockdown is very different from the previous. Traffic is probably 70% of normal, as opposed to 20% of early April.
I wonder where the Fxxk is everybody rushing to...
Yeah the ride to work this morning was not much different to Tuesday. Just colder.
In other news,
I went for a short ride and as I expected, this lockdown is very different from the previous. Traffic is probably 70% of normal, as opposed to 20% of early April.
I wonder where the Fxxk is everybody rushing to...
[/quote
Last time it took the last week of March before everyone had reached toilet roll storage capacity.
I’ve got a few issues of Cycling Weekly ready for the recycling collection in the morning, or I could upcycle them instead, if MK experiences another bog roll shortage 🤣
...Well said!
AUK of course will have to stick to the guidelines... if the guidance is go for as long as you want and how far as you like, then I see no reason not to continue with the validations... it probably won't happen though.
I have a cal. event up here in Scotland on Saturday and getting queries from Riders in England if they can ride.The Scottish cycling guidance is quite clear;
I'd guess not as the legislation encourages exercise to be local and non-essential travel from England to Scotland is discouraged. But the AUK guidance is not specifically clear on this.
I have a cal. event up here in Scotland on Saturday and getting queries from Riders in England if they can ride.
I'd guess not as the legislation encourages exercise to be local and non-essential travel from England to Scotland is discouraged. But the AUK guidance is not specifically clear on this.
The current Scottish Government guidance, given the state of the epidemic across the UK is that people avoid any unnecessary travel between Scotland and England, Wales, or Northern Ireland.
The English guidance does say that for exercise, "this should be done locally wherever possible, but you can travel to do so if necessary". I think the intention is, if you were a keen kayaker, driving to the nearest lake would probably be ok. Therefore, if you're a keen audaxer, ...
You'd be totally taking the piss though.
I have a cal. event up here in Scotland on Saturday and getting queries from Riders in England if they can ride.
I'd guess not as the legislation encourages exercise to be local and non-essential travel from England to Scotland is discouraged. But the AUK guidance is not specifically clear on this.
The English guidance does say that for exercise, "this should be done locally wherever possible, but you can travel to do so if necessary". I think the intention is, if you were a keen kayaker, driving to the nearest lake would probably be ok. Therefore, if you're a keen audaxer, ...
You'd be totally taking the piss though.
Yes it gives travelling a short distance to find open ground to exercise on as an example.
I've had an ECE 200+100 entry for tomorrow in Scotland;My gut feeling is that riding to Scotland to do a ride ("exercise") is within the spirit of the law, but
The new AUK advice only mentions the 200k limit for England is 300k OK in Scotland?
Off topic, but then you would travel to a crag to go climbing.
Off topic, but then you would travel to a crag to go climbing.
And (in my opinion, admittedly) you'd be wrong to do so.
The roads around here weren't exactly quiet today. I'm not convinced that chock full car parks at beauty spots is compatible with R<1.
I've had an ECE 200+100 entry for tomorrow in Scotland;My gut feeling is that riding to Scotland to do a ride ("exercise") is within the spirit of the law, but
The new AUK advice only mentions the 200k limit for England is 300k OK in Scotland?
Driving to Scotland for an Audax is narrowly outside.
Just IMO! I don't make the rules/law.
The roads around here weren't exactly quiet today. I'm not convinced that chock full car parks at beauty spots is compatible with R<1.OT
The roads around here weren't exactly quiet today. I'm not convinced that chock full car parks at beauty spots is compatible with R<1.AUK really needs to stop events starting at beauty spots.:-(
There is no mention of a distance limit for Scotland in the latest update. (4th Nov)
Must admit I'd misread what you wrote forgetting you run the eces!
AUK really needs to stop events starting at beauty spots.:-(
The English guidance does say that for exercise, "this should be done locally wherever possible, but you can travel to do so if necessary". I think the intention is, if you were a keen kayaker, driving to the nearest lake would probably be ok. Therefore, if you're a keen audaxer, ...
You'd be totally taking the piss though.
But surely against the spirit of the law, which shouldn't need to have to dot every i and cross every t in an intelligent society - which obviously we haven't got.
I don't know - you and Simon can work that one out between you.You mean like the dodgy part of Chepstow?The roads around here weren't exactly quiet today. I'm not convinced that chock full car parks at beauty spots is compatible with R<1.AUK really needs to stop events starting at beauty spots.:-(
Ah, but when matt arrives it turns into a place of beauty
There is no mention of a distance limit for Scotland in the latest update. (4th Nov)
Must admit I'd misread what you wrote forgetting you run the eces!
But surely against the spirit of the law, which shouldn't need to have to dot every i and cross every t in an intelligent society - which obviously we haven't got.
But we haven't got intelligent government. So you can't simply just go on what's "intelligent", or the spirit of the law, because that might involve breaking the law. That's why a lot of people are butting right up against the letter of the law.
Britain treats citizens like children which goes a long way to explain why they behave like them.
So yes they DO have to cross every i and dot every t please if they're going to make rules that they expect people who don't trust them to comply with.
Ministers don't understand the rules themselves ( my own MP who hasn't covered himself in glory ) https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-top-cabinet-ministers-sow-confusion-over-englands-lockdown-rules-12122634
I've just had a query from someone living in Wales, asking if he can ride my Holyhead-Prestatyn-Holyhead 200, as it wouldn't involve going through England for him to get there. So while all my Perms that happen to go into Wales are currently unavailable, here is one that is entirely within Wales, so is fine for anyone who can get there.
I'm thinking of setting off for Barnard Castle to ride a Perm. Perhaps I ought to arrange to have an eye test while I'm there.
I've just had a query from someone living in Wales, asking if he can ride my Holyhead-Prestatyn-Holyhead 200, as it wouldn't involve going through England for him to get there. So while all my Perms that happen to go into Wales are currently unavailable, here is one that is entirely within Wales, so is fine for anyone who can get there.
I'm thinking of setting off for Barnard Castle to ride a Perm. Perhaps I ought to arrange to have an eye test while I'm there.
I have had a similar query on the Cambrian Series. The Welsh regulations are clear, there are no restrictions on travel within Wales, but no unnecessary travel to and from England. That means that a 200km permanent is fine as long as it is wholly in Wales and the rider comes from Wales (you could not travel from England to Wales to ride the event). Given the guidance from AUK on permanents, I will be able to validate Cambrian Series permanents on that basis.
I've just had a query from someone living in Wales, asking if he can ride my Holyhead-Prestatyn-Holyhead 200, as it wouldn't involve going through England for him to get there. So while all my Perms that happen to go into Wales are currently unavailable, here is one that is entirely within Wales, so is fine for anyone who can get there.
I'm thinking of setting off for Barnard Castle to ride a Perm. Perhaps I ought to arrange to have an eye test while I'm there.
I have had a similar query on the Cambrian Series. The Welsh regulations are clear, there are no restrictions on travel within Wales, but no unnecessary travel to and from England. That means that a 200km permanent is fine as long as it is wholly in Wales and the rider comes from Wales (you could not travel from England to Wales to ride the event). Given the guidance from AUK on permanents, I will be able to validate Cambrian Series permanents on that basis.
Cambrian entries coming your way from Poste Restante, Cardiff Post Office ;)
Has anybody seen or heard anything about the CUK request to the government for hard and fast rules on how long/far cycling is allowed?I don't think the Government care how far you cycle. Which is a shame, as they don't seem to care much about any other aspect of this lockdown. They have imposed it half heartedly...
Traffic is normal, people around as normal and big queues in front of the food outlets open for take away business.
Traffic is normal, people around as normal and big queues in front of the food outlets open for take away business.
It's great isn't it! ;D
Alternatively they've got a healthy appreciation of the minimal risk to themselves, and a sound philosophy that says that other people "Granny" can't expect them to shut down their lives indefinitely for her sake.Traffic is normal, people around as normal and big queues in front of the food outlets open for take away business.
It's great isn't it! ;D
It just means that people are desensitised and need a new level of "bad" to stick to the lockdown rules... something along the lines of corpses abandoned by the side of the road, like we saw in South America in the spring. Numbers and stats don't work anymore, they need to see the real thing
Perhaps these people are following the rules? Perhaps they're NHS workers, keen to keep the pandemic under control. They just fancy a Big-Mac, and the rules allow it currently.Traffic is normal, people around as normal and big queues in front of the food outlets open for take away business.
It's great isn't it! ;D
It just means that people are desensitised and need a new level of "bad" to stick to the lockdown rules... something along the lines of corpses abandoned by the side of the road, like we saw in South America in the spring. Numbers and stats don't work anymore, they need to see the real thing
Alternatively they've got a healthy appreciation of the minimal risk to themselves, and a sound philosophy that says that other people "Granny" can't expect them to shut down their lives indefinitely for her sake.Traffic is normal, people around as normal and big queues in front of the food outlets open for take away business.
It's great isn't it! ;D
It just means that people are desensitised and need a new level of "bad" to stick to the lockdown rules... something along the lines of corpses abandoned by the side of the road, like we saw in South America in the spring. Numbers and stats don't work anymore, they need to see the real thing
Perhaps these people are following the rules? Perhaps they're NHS workers, keen to keep the pandemic under control. They just fancy a Big-Mac, and the rules allow it currently.Traffic is normal, people around as normal and big queues in front of the food outlets open for take away business.
It's great isn't it! ;D
It just means that people are desensitised and need a new level of "bad" to stick to the lockdown rules... something along the lines of corpses abandoned by the side of the road, like we saw in South America in the spring. Numbers and stats don't work anymore, they need to see the real thing
I'd rather traffic went back down to April levels, but realistically it's not cars that spread Corona so I choose not to moan about it. (or invent my own extra rules for other people)
...Noticing, but not moaning? ;D
There is no moaning. Whether you like it or not, there is a direct correlation between how many people leave the house and how many infections will come as a result.
So if you see more traffic than last time and more people around than last time, all it means is that the lockdown will be less effective than last time. It will bring the R value below one, but not by much and not as quickly. The result is obviously is a stubbornly high number of people in hospitals over the winter and of course deaths piling up.
This is a fact.
They are not all NHS workers, they are not all supposed to be around, they are just less intimidated than they were in spring and the message "stay at home" is not as strong as it was in spring (I think BoJo said it once).
For instance, my neighbour wasn't even home last night and he's not back yet. Should I report him or should I report the other lady living on the opposite side of the road who seems to have people around despite the lockdown? In the end I mind my own business, as we mostly tend to do, but I can't help noticing...
Wow, you are Mr Memory. I remember TWTT, but I had to google for the Wales aspect!
For those of you with long memories, you may recall the Two Ronnies, "The Worm That Turned", even if the humour is almost certainly inappropriate for these days.
Suggest you shop them, for the good of all of us :thumbsup:
Suggest you shop them, for the good of all of us :thumbsup:
Me?
I am a lockdown winner... the longer this thing goes on, the better off I am, sad as it sounds. Working from home has been life changing, I am in no rush to head back to the office any time soon. I hope my age group doesn't get a vaccine until next autumn...
That said, I am mindful of what the rules are and I stick to them religiously... it's a bit odd to see those that have more to lose from the all Covid saga and can't help themselves
Suggest you shop them, for the good of all of us :thumbsup:
Me?
I am a lockdown winner... the longer this thing goes on, the better off I am, sad as it sounds. Working from home has been life changing, I am in no rush to head back to the office any time soon. I hope my age group doesn't get a vaccine until next autumn...
That said, I am mindful of what the rules are and I stick to them religiously... it's a bit odd to see those that have more to lose from the all Covid saga and can't help themselves
Wow, you really are a prize specimen. If you're a "winner", how about you stop parading your own easy compliance around to people who've lost out more than you. The least you can do is stop shoving your own smug self-righteousness in our faces.
Wow, you really are a prize specimen. If you're a "winner", how about you stop parading your own easy compliance around to people who've lost out more than you. The least you can do is stop shoving your own smug self-righteousness in our faces.
Suggest you shop them, for the good of all of us :thumbsup:
Me?
I am a lockdown winner... the longer this thing goes on, the better off I am, sad as it sounds. Working from home has been life changing, I am in no rush to head back to the office any time soon. I hope my age group doesn't get a vaccine until next autumn...
That said, I am mindful of what the rules are and I stick to them religiously... it's a bit odd to see those that have more to lose from the all Covid saga and can't help themselves
You either believe in the collective good or you don't... clearly a lot of people don't.
We have a rota to reduce mixing.I heard bread makers have them to increase mixing.
I should also point out that my compliance would be the same, even if I was less comfortable in following the rules...
{"statusCode":401,"error":"Unauthorized","message":"Invalid apiKey"}
Here's a neat app to work out how far one 'could' ride (at about ?9? mph) if one wanted to stay within 30 minutes (say) of 'home' during one's exercise:
https://api.geoapify.com/v1/isoline?lat=51.630211&lon=-0.766676&type=time&mode=bicycle&range=1800&apiKey=YOUR_API_KEY
because one thought one might have a mechanical which makes one's well-serviced, dependable bike unrideable, for the first time in years.
NB I am not suggesting riders limit themselves in any way, other than complying with local/regional/national rules/guidelines/laws, and thoroughly enjoyed my 200 DIY last week.
Just looking at the new guidance for Tier 3 (which is what the North East of England is in until at least mid-December. It includes:
"People are advised not to travel to and from tier three areas"
So for my December DIY looks like I should avoid one of my regular routes, which travels into North Yorkshire (Tier 2). Still plenty of scope if I head North or West instead.
But I wouldn't be able to have a wetherspoons lunch :(Just looking at the new guidance for Tier 3 (which is what the North East of England is in until at least mid-December. It includes:
"People are advised not to travel to and from tier three areas"
So for my December DIY looks like I should avoid one of my regular routes, which travels into North Yorkshire (Tier 2). Still plenty of scope if I head North or West instead.
if they made the whole country tier 3 you could travel wherever you like :-\
Just looking at the new guidance for Tier 3 (which is what the North East of England is in until at least mid-December. It includes:
"People are advised not to travel to and from tier three areas"
So for my December DIY looks like I should avoid one of my regular routes, which travels into North Yorkshire (Tier 2). Still plenty of scope if I head North or West instead.
You can travel through other areas as part of a longer journey
But I wouldn't be able to have a wetherspoons lunch :(I know, PITA innit >:(
What is the current situation regarding calendar events (in England)?
I had assumed they were suspended but it looks like there are quite a few open for entry. Are they actually happening?
There was an assumption they’d be able to resume after lockdown 2. I guess word needs to come from the board on what they plan to allow. So any entry is on the basis a calendar event may or may not go ahead.You could make a case for events passing through tier 3 as long as the controls were all in tier 2, not sure if any routes would meet this description
Tier 2 (high) has
“Exercise classes and organised adult sport can take place outdoors, but not indoors if it involves people from different households mixing.”
So I’d imagine calendar events purely in tier 2 will be allowed.
But I wouldn't be able to have a wetherspoons lunch :(I know, PITA innit >:(
It's a crying shame the tier 3 areas don't completely encircle the tier 2 areas, cos I'm sure someone would then immediately devise a DIY round them :)
My audax on 5th December is going ahead despite the route including tier 3 Warwickshire. Around 75% of the route is in tier 2.
In tier 3, government regulations allow for both non-contact sporting events and groups of individuals in groups of upto six socialising in outdoor public spaces. So on both counts, audaxes are not restricted.
For the control in Warwickshire, riders will still be able to use hospitality where sales by takeaway are permitted or by using normal food shops However, riders will be warned against congregating in indoor settings. The first control is located in tier 3 Warwickshire but most will only make a brief stop to register their ride on the e-brevet, collect a receipt or ride straight through if using GPS tracking for evidence. As such, it is unlikely that a substantial number of riders will be stopping to use cafes or to collect provisions.
All entrants will be set off from Droitwich (tier 2) at dispersed times over a period of sixty minutes reducing inopportune socialising of more than six people arriving at the first control in Warwickshire. Details on the tier 2 and 3 affected areas along with respective regulations for each will be sent out to entrants next week with an instruction to remain compliant to the regulations as set out by government.
AUK have not contacted me with any details to the contrary.
My audax on 5th December is going ahead despite the route including tier 3 Warwickshire. Around 75% of the route is in tier 2.This sounds like a completely reasonable set of arrangements.
In tier 3, government regulations allow for both non-contact sporting events and groups of individuals in groups of upto six socialising in outdoor public spaces. So on both counts, audaxes are not restricted.
For the control in Warwickshire, riders will still be able to use hospitality where sales by takeaway are permitted or by using normal food shops However, riders will be warned against congregating in indoor settings. The first control is located in tier 3 Warwickshire but most will only make a brief stop to register their ride on the e-brevet, collect a receipt or ride straight through if using GPS tracking for evidence. As such, it is unlikely that a substantial number of riders will be stopping to use cafes or to collect provisions.
All entrants will be set off from Droitwich (tier 2) at dispersed times over a period of sixty minutes reducing inopportune socialising of more than six people arriving at the first control in Warwickshire. Details on the tier 2 and 3 affected areas along with respective regulations for each will be sent out to entrants next week with an instruction to remain compliant to the regulations as set out by government.
AUK have not contacted me with any details to the contrary.
Maybe I am being overzealous...
I had a plan to do half an Everest (it's called Basecamp, apparently), but the hill I had chosen is in a tier 2 area, and we are tier 3... so I decided to mothball the attempt for now...
There is a fair chance we will be downgraded to tier 2 at the earliest opportunity... rate is under 200 and falling right now
Maybe I am being overzealous...
I had a plan to do half an Everest (it's called Basecamp, apparently), but the hill I had chosen is in a tier 2 area, and we are tier 3... so I decided to mothball the attempt for now...
There is a fair chance we will be downgraded to tier 2 at the earliest opportunity... rate is under 200 and falling right now
Might want to also bear in mind that it's grown. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/mount-everest-height-china-nepal-b1767856.html
I like the story of Andrew Waugh, the British Surveyor General of India, who was the first to accurately measure the height of Everest, which came to exactly 29,000 feet at the time. Worried that a round number would cause accusations of estimation, he added two feet to the total, coming to the figure of 29,002 feet, and becoming the first person to put 'two feet' on Everest.
My reading is that groups of up to 6 are allowed, keeping to a 1.5 metre separation in general. Riders can ride, and stop, within their own Tier area. They may pass through another Tier area, but should not stop, even if these Tier is the same level to the one they started in.
My reading is that groups of up to 6 are allowed, keeping to a 1.5 metre separation in general. Riders can ride, and stop, within their own Tier area. They may pass through another Tier area, but should not stop, even if these Tier is the same level to the one they started in.
There's absolutely nothing to back this up in either the government rules or the BC guidelines. If you live in a Tier 1 or 2 area you may treat all other Tier 1 or 2 areas like your own.
You’ll find it under the BC guidance for clubs and groups.
There's absolutely nothing to back this up in either the government rules or the BC guidelines. If you live in a Tier 1 or 2 area you may treat all other Tier 1 or 2 areas like your own.Haven't read the BC guidelines recently, but pretty sure that gov guidelines allow free movement between "areas" (just as in 2019!), EXCEPT where Tier3 is involved.
... That means no-one (whether that be competitors, race officials or anyone associated with the event) should travel to the event if they live in a Tier 3 area.Tier 3:
... There is a limited exception to this in that Type B “club” events can be held, PROVIDED THAT everyone who competes in the event or helps out at the event, (whether that be a race official or otherwise), is from that same Tier 3 area. People from Tier 1, Tier 2 or any other Tier 3 areas must not attend the event. It is strongly recommended that if this exception is to be relied on, the event is kept to a small scale so as to make the event and compliance with the above easier to manage
You’ll find it under the BC guidance for clubs and groups.
Where exactly?
We know that many of you will often begin your ride in one area and cross into others as part of your normal routes, and this is vital to helping individuals to stay active and access quieter roads and green spaces.
Groups from ‘Medium’ (Tier 1) or ‘High’ (Tier 2) areas are permitted to pass through a ‘Very high’ (Tier 3) area as part of their route, however they should not stop for a break while in that area.
Groups from ‘Very high’ (Tier 3) areas are permitted to pass through ‘Medium’ (Tier 1), ‘High’ (Tier 2) or other ‘Very high’ (Tier 3) areas as part of their route, however they should only stop for a break while within their own area.
I think we might see a new Tier 4 after Christmas when the figures get released following all of the brain-dead party-ing!A post ahead of its time....
:thumbsup: Re the possibility of skipping a month for covid reasons, but being fairly new to the RRTY game would it be possible to still use a DIY I invent that stays within my tier 4 area and doesn't stray too far from home?
I wonder how many Londoners are coming up with silly routes and how many are giving up.I think one of the AC Hackney-ites did a 200km in Greater London recently, but I don't have any more details.
surprising to me, not sure what PMBJ said last night that differs from the other devolved nations about permitted exercise
The government seem to distinguish between travel and exercise. I will await BC guidance on what is reasonable and necessary when it comes to cycling but I imagine it would fall somewhere between the interpretations “do not pass your village boundary” and “200km is fine”surprising to me, not sure what PMBJ said last night that differs from the other devolved nations about permitted exercise
From the government web site:
"You should minimise time spent outside your home.
It is against the law to meet socially with family or friends unless they are
part of your household or support bubble. You can only leave your home
to exercise, and not for the purpose of recreation or leisure (e.g. a picnic
or a social meeting). This should be limited to once per day, and you
should not travel outside your local area."
New RRtY rules for the period from November 2020 to at least until the end of Covid-19 Tier 4 restrictionsI know how precious RRtY is to many AUK members and how emotive it can be, therefore, to be as ecumenical as possible with the current travel restriction guidance, in addition to the current restart allowance for 6 months from August 2020 these two clauses are added:This is a solution to allow those that are able to continue riding without penalising or placing undue pressure on those unable to ride a BR. I will be flexible with RRtY validations at this time because I do not want anyone to ride a BR 'just' to get their tick for the month.
- If you are able to ride a DiY, Perm or Calendar Brevet Randonneur to keep an active RRtY series ticking along then please feel free do so.
- If you have an active series and genuinely cannot ride a BR, or feel it irresponsible to do so in your area, then the missed months will be handled as 'in suspension' for the purpose of RRtY validation.
You'd think that by now we should all know what is meant by our 'local area' ::-) but I don't - but I'd assume that it doesn't extend more than 10km from my home, could be a lot less.
10km allows you a circular ride of 31km, you'd need 7 of those (all different) to make a 200. You'd probably get by with 6 circuits of imperfect shape.
You'd think that by now we should all know what is meant by our 'local area' ::-) but I don't - but I'd assume that it doesn't extend more than 10km from my home, could be a lot less.
10km allows you a circular ride of 31km, you'd need 7 of those (all different) to make a 200. You'd probably get by with 6 circuits of imperfect shape.
10k radius is 63k circumference.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210105/a03f02c1d3b184280eb5ec1f946c8b13.jpg)You'd think that by now we should all know what is meant by our 'local area' ::-) but I don't - but I'd assume that it doesn't extend more than 10km from my home, could be a lot less.
10km allows you a circular ride of 31km, you'd need 7 of those (all different) to make a 200. You'd probably get by with 6 circuits of imperfect shape.
10k radius is 63k circumference.
So 3 loops would be sufficient for a 200. (Given you have to ride 10km to get to the loop and 10km back home at the end.)
(But that assumes there is a route that closely follows a 10km radius circle. Many places won't have that at all given the lack of roads in open countryside.)
A 25km radius would be sufficient for a 200km ride with just one loop (25 * pi * 2 = 157km + 25km to and 25km from the loop = 207km.)
25km would just about be "within an hour of home" too.
Your local area is your village, town or part of the city that you live in.
Your local area is your village, town or part of the city that you live in.
Thanks that's the definition I was after. Although I won't be doing Audax rides I will certainly be going outside my town for exercise, as the March lockdown proved very quickly that that many people all walking / running / dog pulling along the same roads / footpaths* gets very crowded and not safe
If they are going to be that draconian they need to set a geographical limit like in France (2km IIRC)
* and muddy!
I am sure there will be some tweaking. Currently non essential shops can’t open apart from a click and collect service. However only leaving your home to purchase basic necessities is allowed, so those click and collect for non essential items should be very quiet.Your local area is your village, town or part of the city that you live in.
Thanks that's the definition I was after. Although I won't be doing Audax rides I will certainly be going outside my town for exercise, as the March lockdown proved very quickly that that many people all walking / running / dog pulling along the same roads / footpaths* gets very crowded and not safe
If they are going to be that draconian they need to set a geographical limit like in France (2km IIRC)
* and muddy!
For some of us the “ village” = Parish? Isn’t much more than 2km at best!
I am sure there will be some tweaking. Currently non essential shops can’t open apart from a click and collect service. However only leaving your home to purchase basic necessities is allowed, so those click and collect for non essential items should be very quiet.
Some nutter will be along soon suggesting doing loops of sometime like the MK/National Bowl. Like anyone is silly enough to do that again and again day after day.I think TG is gonna be busy delivering McD etc
For some of us the “ village” = Parish? Isn’t much more than 2km at best!
On the high street today:
Robert Dyas open: WHSmith open, independent shop selling various paraphernalia from laundry baskets to brooms and pans open; independent pet shop open; Poundland open; Bike shop open; Florist open for click and collect only. All cafes open for takeaway only
Which shops exactly are not essential?
On that list only the florist is non essential, and that is why it is click and collect. Some of it comes down to personal responsibility. If a shop sells confectionery and diy goods, going there to buy diy goods to fix a leak is fine. buying a chocolate bar incidental to that that is ok. Going out to buy a chocolate bar or browse not so much.
I am sure there will be some tweaking. Currently non essential shops can’t open apart from a click and collect service. However only leaving your home to purchase basic necessities is allowed, so those click and collect for non essential items should be very quiet.
On the high street today:
Robert Dyas open: WHSmith open, independent shop selling various paraphernalia from laundry baskets to brooms and pans open; independent pet shop open; Poundland open; Bike shop open; Florist open for click and collect only. All cafes open for takeaway only
Which shops exactly are not essential?
Many shops have tried to get around the "essential" status by sticking a fridge with a few bottles of water in the corner of the shop. That (unless it's an urban myth) allows them to classify themselves as essential and stay open.
You'd think that by now we should all know what is meant by our 'local area' ::-) but I don't - but I'd assume that it doesn't extend more than 10km from my home, could be a lot less.
10km allows you a circular ride of 31km, you'd need 7 of those (all different) to make a 200. You'd probably get by with 6 circuits of imperfect shape.
10k radius is 63k circumference.
You'd think that by now we should all know what is meant by our 'local area' ::-) but I don't - but I'd assume that it doesn't extend more than 10km from my home, could be a lot less.
10km allows you a circular ride of 31km, you'd need 7 of those (all different) to make a 200. You'd probably get by with 6 circuits of imperfect shape.
10k radius is 63k circumference.
To stay within 10k of home your (hypothetical) multiple loops from home would be 10k diameter, not radius.
10km diameter would mean only straying as far as 5km from home.
You'd think that by now we should all know what is meant by our 'local area' ::-) but I don't - but I'd assume that it doesn't extend more than 10km from my home, could be a lot less.
10km allows you a circular ride of 31km, you'd need 7 of those (all different) to make a 200. You'd probably get by with 6 circuits of imperfect shape.
10k radius is 63k circumference.
To stay within 10k of home your (hypothetical) multiple loops from home would be 10k diameter, not radius.
Do you want to check that?
(https://www.mathsisfun.com/geometry/images/circle-rad-dia-circ.svg)
10km diameter would mean only straying as far as 5km from home.
(I think you may be thinking a 10km diameter loop starting from home, which is not what anyone else here is describing. Everyone else is describing loops of diameter X centred on their home.)
You'd think that by now we should all know what is meant by our 'local area' ::-) but I don't - but I'd assume that it doesn't extend more than 10km from my home, could be a lot less.
10km allows you a circular ride of 31km, you'd need 7 of those (all different) to make a 200. You'd probably get by with 6 circuits of imperfect shape.
10k radius is 63k circumference.
To stay within 10k of home your (hypothetical) multiple loops from home would be 10k diameter, not radius.
Do you want to check that?
(https://www.mathsisfun.com/geometry/images/circle-rad-dia-circ.svg)
10km diameter would mean only straying as far as 5km from home.
(I think you may be thinking a 10km diameter loop starting from home, which is not what anyone else here is describing. Everyone else is describing loops of diameter X centred on their home.)
If you are doing a figure 8 route starting from home, then your route is on the circumference of each loop. I think this is what Francis is getting at.
You'd think that by now we should all know what is meant by our 'local area' ::-) but I don't - but I'd assume that it doesn't extend more than 10km from my home, could be a lot less.
10km allows you a circular ride of 31km, you'd need 7 of those (all different) to make a 200. You'd probably get by with 6 circuits of imperfect shape.
To make it painfully clear, here's the original quote:-You'd think that by now we should all know what is meant by our 'local area' ::-) but I don't - but I'd assume that it doesn't extend more than 10km from my home, could be a lot less.
10km allows you a circular ride of 31km, you'd need 7 of those (all different) to make a 200. You'd probably get by with 6 circuits of imperfect shape.
"10km allows you a circular ride of 31km".
That's correct if the question is "What is the largest circle shaped ride (just a circle shaped ride) that can be made without venturing more than 10km away from home?"
But that puts an odd requirement on that you're not allowed to ride anything other than the circle shape itself, which is nigh on impossible anyway given road layouts.
If the question is "What is the largest circle that can be made without venturing more than 10km away from home?" then the answer is:-
"10km allows you a circular ride of 62km (plus 20km out/back to give 82km)".
Anyway...
I found this tool:
https://www.mapdevelopers.com/draw-circle-tool.php
I found this tool:
https://www.mapdevelopers.com/draw-circle-tool.php
I'd forgotten about this. Just used it to check my December 200 route which I had to tweak so as not to go into Cambs. It is all within 10 miles. ;D
I was thinking in the context of Audax rules that you can't use a circular route repeatedly e.g. to make up 200km by repetition. You can reverse a loop, I believe. So to avoid repeating loops you'd need multiple largely non-overlapping loops. For instance a figure 8 or a cloverleaf. Like the events from the 'uts near Ugley.
I reckon I could come up with a 200km route that fits within a 10 mile radius of here without trying too hard, but would I ride it even in normal times? Doubtful.
If I knew how to obtain, parse and process the OSM data I'd have a go at writing something to find a really short route that avoids using the same stretch of road twice in the same direction. It just essentially boils down to a form of the Traveling Salesman Problem over a directed graph.
This could make a FASCINATING Arrivée article!
(With a bit of work)
I have experimented with this in the past. Getting the data if it is for a small area you can ask for it by api and get it as xml which is very easy. For more serious usage their binary format would be better but is more work. It has an interesting variable bit length representation for numbers - you can get for example 13 or 17 bit ones streamed. The main problem then with osm data is there is too much detail. The biggest part is to filter it down to some sort of navigation network by throwing away 99.99% . That part which sounds like a bit of housekeeping is the hardest bit.If I knew how to obtain, parse and process the OSM data I'd have a go at writing something to find a really short route that avoids using the same stretch of road twice in the same direction. It just essentially boils down to a form of the Traveling Salesman Problem over a directed graph.
I now can't stop thinking about doing exactly this. I don't have time (both with a busy work schedule, WFH distractions and home schooling) but it's all my brain seems to want to think about right now.
Argh.
Conditions where I have to go pour hot water onto the layer of ice on the chickens’ water are not riding conditions. Not that I’m going anywhere anyway. Only left the house this year so far to collect a prescription.
Conditions where I have to go pour hot water onto the layer of ice on the chickens’ water are not riding conditions. Not that I’m going anywhere anyway. Only left the house this year so far to collect a prescription.
You can get them delivered too - then you won't need to go out at all. Better still, rig up a hose to from the hot tap to the chicken run, and you won't even need to go outside at all! ;D
We've had a couple of days when we tried to go outside - but after a lot of freezing rain the in past week, it's hard enough to even stand up out there.
Conditions where I have to go pour hot water onto the layer of ice on the chickens’ water are not riding conditions. Not that I’m going anywhere anyway. Only left the house this year so far to collect a prescription.
You can get them delivered too - then you won't need to go out at all. Better still, rig up a hose to from the hot tap to the chicken run, and you won't even need to go outside at all! ;D
We've had a couple of days when we tried to go outside - but after a lot of freezing rain the in past week, it's hard enough to even stand up out there.
The local pharmacy were only delivering during the first lockdown to shielding people and it was late in the day. Needed to be fetched there and the .
We ran out of milk - I drank black coffee. Biggest irony was running out of cheddar. It’s literally 5 minutes away.
Biggest irony was running out of cheddar. It’s literally 5 minutes away.
I received this email at 11.11 this morning - the ability to ride some Perm / DIYs in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland but not in England appears to have been very short lived. Definitely the correct move for multiple reasons.
<STUFF>
I received this email at 11.11 this morning - the ability to ride some Perm / DIYs in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland but not in England appears to have been very short lived. Definitely the correct move for multiple reasons.
<STUFF>
I received two copies of that text, one with the title Audax UK Membership Renewal, the other with a COVID title.
I received two copies of that text, one with the title Audax UK Membership Renewal, the other with a COVID title.
Could be worse. A few years ago several hundred high net worth customers of a certain bank got a letter addressed “Dear Rich Bastard”I received two copies of that text, one with the title Audax UK Membership Renewal, the other with a COVID title.
Sorry folks that was me trying to rush some proof reading between "real work" jobs this morning and failing dismally - I checked the content but completely missed the title. Fortunately it was only a batch of around 200-300 that went out wrong.
Apologies for any inconvenience and confusion.
I received two copies of that text, one with the title Audax UK Membership Renewal, the other with a COVID title.
Sorry folks that was me trying to rush some proof reading between "real work" jobs this morning and failing dismally - I checked the content but completely missed the title. Fortunately it was only a batch of around 200-300 that went out wrong.
Apologies for any inconvenience and confusion.
Huh, I thought DIYs would not get homologated at all by AUK? (I don't have restrictions on how far / where I can cycle in the Netherlands)
If you are allowed to ride a long way in your country, you can ride a DIY. AUK has shut down DIYs in the UK only.
If you are allowed to ride a long way in your country, you can ride a DIY. AUK has shut down DIYs in the UK only.
not the UK just England; Wales and Scotland have different rules even in AUK. In England the rules (nor actually law it just states should) are that you stay within the village town or area of a city you live in for exercise.
The Prime Minister just pushed that envelope by travelling from 10 Downing St to East London to do a bike ride, vindicated by his Health Secretary who stated that this was OK as long as you didn't travel across the country
Therefore can we please go back to perms that do not leave the local area (ie mostly county based) ? seems reasonable
Huh, I thought DIYs would not get homologated at all by AUK? (I don't have restrictions on how far / where I can cycle in the Netherlands)
That was my understanding too.
I'm confused.
J