Yet Another Cycling Forum

General Category => Audax => Topic started by: LittleWheelsandBig on 24 May, 2020, 11:03:52 pm

Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 24 May, 2020, 11:03:52 pm
I see that a long thread has been deleted today. The questions raised by various AUKs still remain. Is the AUK Board going to give any information regarding how AUK might run brevets, given potentially progressive lockdown relaxations over an extended period and likely regional variations in relaxations?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 24 May, 2020, 11:24:05 pm
Would this not be better off posted on the AUK official forum?

http://forum.audax.uk/index.php
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 24 May, 2020, 11:29:47 pm
Better to have it in both places, to get contributions from more folk. I’ll put it over there tomorrow.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on 25 May, 2020, 08:34:31 am
I think a post i did was in the deleted thread. It's theme was

1. I am sure the board is doing a lot of work behind the scenes.
2. If the guidance does not change then what is the point of doing updates, when there is nothing to say?
3. Giving updates risks discussions on pointless things or issues with interpretation.
4. No one knows how this is going to end so putting a plan in place may keep a lot of people busy and require writing, re-drafing, updating wording and having meeting to finalise, not to mention keeping the forums busy with discussions on things like handling cake in a Corvid-19 safe manner, but will be essentially pointless.

Audax UK must limit the amount of pointless information it gives out, otherwise they risk looking like one of the politicians in the current daily updates. Sounding earnest, dividing people into two groups, one who congratulate them on a good working and other that smiles and wonders if any of this will ever happen.

I think the current level of information has been just about right. There is no point in saying anything and getting involved in fringe discussions on the limits of interpreting the rules. Look at the mess around Dominic Cummings.

BB

 

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 25 May, 2020, 08:36:44 am
Would this not be better off posted on the AUK official forum?

http://forum.audax.uk/index.php
To be fair, the thread already there hasn't produced a flood of detail from the board.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on 25 May, 2020, 09:09:27 am
Would this not be better off posted on the AUK official forum?

http://forum.audax.uk/index.php
To be fair, the thread already there hasn't produced a flood of detail from the board.
That could be because there is little point in having many discussions at the moment.. ???

Just saying....

BB
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: postie on 25 May, 2020, 09:29:06 am
I am with you on this BB boy, the future is very unknown and i am sure the board are on the case.
But do we really need a plan in writing etc, everything changes daily so a statement from the board today could be worthless tomorrow.

We should all remember audax uk is run by volunteers and as such people have other things in life to worry about.
To all i would say, relax audaxing will return in time and for now the sun is out go and enjoy your bike , explore and enjoy.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 25 May, 2020, 09:54:19 am
Would this not be better off posted on the AUK official forum?

http://forum.audax.uk/index.php
To be fair, the thread already there hasn't produced a flood of detail from the board.

To be fair, that's because no-one has asked them about it specifically. There's only really been your question about what was said to the insurers. I don't see how AUK are supposed to guess from that that people want an update on plans for any kind of validation and whether AUK are even considering that.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on 25 May, 2020, 10:15:39 am
Would this not be better off posted on the AUK official forum?

http://forum.audax.uk/index.php
To be fair, the thread already there hasn't produced a flood of detail from the board.

To be fair, that's because no-one has asked them about it specifically. There's only really been your question about what was said to the insurers. I don't see how AUK are supposed to guess from that that people want an update on plans for any kind of validation and whether AUK are even considering that.
Audax UK don't need to guess "that that people want an update on plans". It's called leadership and specifically sharing its vision with its membership. The board are all volunteers and of course they have other things to do. But suggesting that they will only consider action and let people know what the cunning plan is if people ask them to is to demean their intellect.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 25 May, 2020, 10:24:13 am
The deleted thread seems to have been partially reinstated, up to early May only. An interesting approach that wipes out most of what has been posted this month regarding AUK’s intentions for audax in a COVID19 world.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on 25 May, 2020, 10:29:47 am
It's a completely different thread @LWaB. At least we can be confident you will not arbitrarily delete this one :)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: C-3PO on 25 May, 2020, 10:34:44 am
The deleted thread lies still, secure in our storage facility. We allow Masters to delete their threads, as we allow editing and deletion of posts. For this is a forum where we expect members to behave appropriately.

I shall ask the Moderation Masters if this thread should be merged with this one, (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=115080.0) it does appear to be a duplication.

Your shiny servant.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on 25 May, 2020, 10:35:56 am
There's really only a very limited number of options for them to consider:
1. No return (for the forseeable)
2. Staged return
3. Full return (from a date to be determined)

and in the case of 2 or 3:
a. With or without modifications to the rules (see golf and tennis)
b. With or without championships (for any affected season(s)
c. With or without a dispensation for RRTY.

(2) is obviously the most attractive, but also the most complicated for volunteers to deliver.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 25 May, 2020, 10:38:02 am
And
d. With regional variations or uniform across the UK regions

The AUK Board indicating which of those choices was their preferred/ likely option would be sufficient, given the lack of detail provided by the UK/ England government regarding their plans for the un-lockdown process.

Thanks for the correction Ajax Bay. It just confirms my memory limitations.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on 25 May, 2020, 10:46:06 am
We should all remember audax uk is run by volunteers and as such people have other things in life to worry about.

I suspect they have rediscovered the delights of leisure time, after many years yoked to the plough.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on 25 May, 2020, 10:46:58 am
And
d. with regional variations or uniform across the regions

The AUK Board indicating which of those choices was their preferred/ likely option would be sufficient, given the lack of detail provided by the UK/ England government regarding their plans for the un-lockdown process.
This is the type of thing we want to avoid. What happens if Scotland and Wales have slightly different rules? Are you allowed to use motorway services that are open, but buy food and drink that is only supplied for key workers? If calender events open who monitors the number of people in controls?

It quickly gets very complex and people will have many and varied questions and opinions, and all when the rules are not clear. FFS what would be the point.

BB

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on 25 May, 2020, 11:07:03 am
Everyone is expected to comply with whatever rules are in force per government, country, region, shop etc.  AUK doesn't need to pronounce on any of that.  If the rules are not clear, all the more reason for AUK to not get involved.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: postie on 25 May, 2020, 11:10:55 am
And one problem is some people need everything in life mapped out while others just go with the flow.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 25 May, 2020, 11:14:37 am
It affects Options 2 & 3. If AUK says no regional variations for running brevets, the rate of restarting AUK is set by the most restrictive region. Any of England (not likely), Northern Ireland (no AUK calendar brevets, only Audax Ireland brevets), Scotland or Wales could have tighter restrictions than the other regions.

The only preference (in this regard) published by the AUK Secretary was to avoid regional variations.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Danu on 25 May, 2020, 11:20:46 am
On this subject I will follow the advice of my club captain,  if  a hard riding audaxer is prepared to wait before riding events, that is good enough for me
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on 25 May, 2020, 11:25:57 am
And one problem is some people need everything in life mapped out while others just go with the flow.

AUK doesn't have regulations such as "your bike must have efficient brakes" or "you must have working lights front and rear" it just says "you must comply with the Road Traffic Regs".   Same sort of thing.

In another thread on yacf there was mention of a tennis club applying to the council for permission to restart - the coucil agreed, with some provisos - no ball-handling, oo-er - and no over-70s.  An iniquitous restriction, but it's nothing to do with the club, the rule comes from a (slightly) higher authority.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 25 May, 2020, 11:29:22 am
On the deleted thread, a poster opined that an asymptomatic solo DIY by GPSer would be a high transmission risk by spreading the virus far and wide by purchases at each refreshment stop. The concept of mitigation measures didn’t seem to be considered.

If AUK takes the same approach, AUK will remain shut down until (if) an effective vaccine is widely distributed (perhaps never). I’d appreciate any such indication as to the medium/longterm future of AUK.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: S2L on 25 May, 2020, 11:32:11 am
On the deleted thread, a poster opined that an asymptomatic solo DIY by GPSer would be a high transmission risk by spreading the virus far and wide by purchases at each refreshment stop. The concept of mitigation measures didn’t seem to be considered.


Yep, that was me... it's a scenario
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on 25 May, 2020, 11:57:06 am
I assume you meant infected and asymptomatic.  Comes to that, you don't even need to be infected - anyone can be a transmitter if they're a bit careless.  We are, in case you've forgotten, exhorted to 'stay alert'.  That is not an AUK thing.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: S2L on 25 May, 2020, 12:15:27 pm
I assume you meant infected and asymptomatic.  Comes to that, you don't even need to be infected - anyone can be a transmitter if they're a bit careless.  We are, in case you've forgotten, exhorted to 'stay alert'.  That is not an AUK thing.

The context was that there is a perception that calendar events are more risky than solo DIY, to which I said "we can't even be sure about that". To some extent, in a calendar event the organiser has scope to make an event "safe"... in a solo DIY it's down to the individual and to the circumstances, which might be beyond control.

Anyway, it's all academic
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on 25 May, 2020, 12:23:39 pm
Can you imagine the state of an event Finish controller being handed a steady stream of grubby brevet cards, ATM chits etc.  If all this accelerates a move towards paperless rides that will be one good thing to come out of it, I reckon.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 25 May, 2020, 12:38:41 pm
Would this not be better off posted on the AUK official forum?

http://forum.audax.uk/index.php
To be fair, the thread already there hasn't produced a flood of detail from the board.

To be fair, that's because no-one has asked them about it specifically. There's only really been your question about what was said to the insurers. I don't see how AUK are supposed to guess from that that people want an update on plans for any kind of validation and whether AUK are even considering that.
Audax UK don't need to guess "that that people want an update on plans". It's called leadership and specifically sharing its vision with its membership. The board are all volunteers and of course they have other things to do. But suggesting that they will only consider action and let people know what the cunning plan is if people ask them to is to demean their intellect.

I wasn't suggesting that they will only consider action if people ask them, you misunderstand my point.

My previous points stand:-

1) They've already given an update on the AUK website and in that thread on the AUK forum.
2) They're working on a plan.
3) Some members want more detail (and sooner than AUK are looking to publish it) as they somehow think that a lack of detail = no plan whatsoever
4) The AUK board can't guess this, so either the members who want more detail need to let the board know that, or they can hope that the board guesses it
5) If you want to ask for (3) then the most obvious place to do so is the official AUK forum
6) It's up to the board what they do, they may just say "Yes, we're working on it". That may satisfy quite a few people from (3), but probably not all.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 25 May, 2020, 12:57:47 pm
And one problem is some people need everything in life mapped out while others just go with the flow.

AUK doesn't have regulations such as "your bike must have efficient brakes" or "you must have working lights front and rear" it just says "you must comply with the Road Traffic Regs".   Same sort of thing.

It's for this reason that I think AUK should mainly let us get on with it - they've trusted us to not break the law for 40 years; why change that?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 25 May, 2020, 01:11:59 pm
And one problem is some people need everything in life mapped out while others just go with the flow.

AUK doesn't have regulations such as "your bike must have efficient brakes" or "you must have working lights front and rear" it just says "you must comply with the Road Traffic Regs".   Same sort of thing.

It's for this reason that I think AUK should mainly let us get on with it - they've trusted us to not break the law for 40 years; why change that?

Because it's not about breaking the law. It's about not encouraging people to disregard certain aspects of social responsibility. (Right now, given the current restrictions/guidelines/etc because of the pandemic.)

And, again, no-one is stopping anyone riding their bike (although the Welsh and Scottish Governments are to some respect).
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: S2L on 25 May, 2020, 02:13:19 pm
Can you imagine the state of an event Finish controller being handed a steady stream of grubby brevet cards, ATM chits etc.  If all this accelerates a move towards paperless rides that will be one good thing to come out of it, I reckon.

That's easily sorted. No instant validations. The rider HAS TO enclose all the proof in a plastic sealed bag to be collected at the finish and post it in a shoe box. The organiser doesn't touch the content of the box for X days until it is safe to do so.

Anyway, again, all academic as I don;t think there will be Audax events until it is safe to operate as per normal
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 25 May, 2020, 02:34:41 pm
Thread now started on the AUK forum
http://forum.audax.uk/index.php?topic=1870
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on 25 May, 2020, 02:57:40 pm
Audax UK - Update 16 May 2020

"COVID-19 - Suspension of AUK rides: Update

"In the Chair's message to members last month, he said that the current suspension of recognition of AUK events would be reviewed if there were to be any meaningful and relevant change to the current guidance on social distancing and group activities from the government.

"Accordingly, we have studied the Prime Minister's statement of May 10th and the subsequent guidance issued, and have also considered the views and intentions of the devolved nations and the implications of those. We have also taken note of advice issued by other relevant bodies, such as Sport England, British Cycling, and Cycling UK, and consulted with our insurers.

"Our judgement is that it would be premature to make any changes to the suspension at the moment, particularly given that the amended guidance applies only to England, and that different conditions apply in the devolved nations. However, we are working on identifying and working through ways in which we might return to validating AUK events as soon as we conclude that it is both safe and responsible to do so."

AUK Board
May 16th 2020

So a particular (primary?) factor delaying the reintroduction of anything at all (eg DIYs and Pemanents as Phase 1) is that different conditions apply to the various home nations (Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are not "devolved nations" btw; some powers have been).
To allow people to look forward and plan, how about hearing what options have been identified and are being worked on so far, with  firm dates neither needed nor necessary.
PS Had a great ride yesterday.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 25 May, 2020, 03:07:03 pm
Can you imagine the state of an event Finish controller being handed a steady stream of grubby brevet cards, ATM chits etc.  If all this accelerates a move towards paperless rides that will be one good thing to come out of it, I reckon.

That's easily sorted. No instant validations. The rider HAS TO enclose all the proof in a plastic sealed bag to be collected at the finish and post it in a shoe box. The organiser doesn't touch the content of the box for X days until it is safe to do so.

Anyway, again, all academic as I don;t think there will be Audax events until it is safe to operate as per normal
Or go digital. Spend some of the quazillions of IT budget (or get some sucker to do it for free) and build an eBrevetCard app. When you reach a control point, you rev up the app and click the stamp button. After collecting all the stamps and when you have internet, press submit button.


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Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 25 May, 2020, 03:37:17 pm
And one problem is some people need everything in life mapped out while others just go with the flow.

AUK doesn't have regulations such as "your bike must have efficient brakes" or "you must have working lights front and rear" it just says "you must comply with the Road Traffic Regs".   Same sort of thing.

It's for this reason that I think AUK should mainly let us get on with it - they've trusted us to not break the law for 40 years; why change that?

Because it's not about breaking the law. It's about not encouraging people to disregard certain aspects of social responsibility. (Right now, given the current restrictions/guidelines/etc because of the pandemic.)

And, again, no-one is stopping anyone riding their bike (although the Welsh and Scottish Governments are to some respect).
What socially irresponsible attitudes do you feel would be encouraged by organising socially distanced, self supported, non group, cycle rides entirely outdoors ?

A third of the the population has put put on half a stone each during lockdown. That is half a trillion calories unless I have mentally slipped a decimal point.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 25 May, 2020, 03:56:09 pm
And one problem is some people need everything in life mapped out while others just go with the flow.

AUK doesn't have regulations such as "your bike must have efficient brakes" or "you must have working lights front and rear" it just says "you must comply with the Road Traffic Regs".   Same sort of thing.

It's for this reason that I think AUK should mainly let us get on with it - they've trusted us to not break the law for 40 years; why change that?

Because it's not about breaking the law. It's about not encouraging people to disregard certain aspects of social responsibility. (Right now, given the current restrictions/guidelines/etc because of the pandemic.)

And, again, no-one is stopping anyone riding their bike (although the Welsh and Scottish Governments are to some respect).
What socially irresponsible attitudes do you feel would be encouraged by organising socially distanced, self supported cycle rides entirely outdoors ?

A third of the the population has put put on half a stone each during lockdown. That is half a trillion calories unless I have mentally slipped a decimal point.

Audaxing is an outlier. A third of the population putting on half a stone is nothing to do with AUK stopping validating rides. Fewer than 10,000 individuals do a 200km+ ride in a normal year and the vast majority of those will be regular cyclists that will still be doing lots of cycling (which no-one is preventing them from doing).

I gave my opinion in the old thread as to why I think, right now, given the current guidelines/restrictions, Audaxing would not be a socially responsible thing to encourage. But that's just my personal opinion, however it seems to be similar to the view held by the AUK board hence their view that it they should withdraw validation.

You can make it about my personal opinion but I'm not the one setting AUK policy on this. Your beef seems to be with AUK not me. I accept that your opinion differs and I'm not making any attempt to change your mind as it doesn't really matter to me.

As a rough precis of my thoughts in the original thread:-
* Exercise is good and there are no limits on exercise[1]
* Audax is more than just exercise
* One of the primary items in the current guidance is "Stay at home as much as possible" and unnecessary things like Audax would fall under this (in my opinion)
* No-one could guarantee that all riders would be able to stick to social distancing and hygiene standards even if rides were limited to solo DIYs or Perms (every individual will think they can individually but AUK has to think of the average and worst cases)
* Given all of this (and probably some other stuff) AUK has decided that it should not be encouraging people to do unnecessary activities

1. Although I would guess that the "unlimited" part was to stop people getting all judgemental about others if there were limits (e.g. the fact that people believe that there was a "1 hour of exercise per day" limit with the original restrictions).
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 25 May, 2020, 04:11:41 pm
And one problem is some people need everything in life mapped out while others just go with the flow.

AUK doesn't have regulations such as "your bike must have efficient brakes" or "you must have working lights front and rear" it just says "you must comply with the Road Traffic Regs".   Same sort of thing.

It's for this reason that I think AUK should mainly let us get on with it - they've trusted us to not break the law for 40 years; why change that?

Because it's not about breaking the law. It's about not encouraging people to disregard certain aspects of social responsibility. (Right now, given the current restrictions/guidelines/etc because of the pandemic.)

And, again, no-one is stopping anyone riding their bike (although the Welsh and Scottish Governments are to some respect).
What socially irresponsible attitudes do you feel would be encouraged by organising socially distanced, self supported cycle rides entirely outdoors ?

A third of the the population has put put on half a stone each during lockdown. That is half a trillion calories unless I have mentally slipped a decimal point.

Audaxing is an outlier. A third of the population putting on half a stone is nothing to do with AUK stopping validating rides. Fewer than 10,000 individuals do a 200km+ ride in a normal year and the vast majority of those will be regular cyclists that will still be doing lots of cycling (which no-one is preventing them from doing).

I gave my opinion in the old thread as to why I think, right now, given the current guidelines/restrictions, Audaxing would not be a socially responsible thing to encourage. But that's just my personal opinion, however it seems to be similar to the view held by the AUK board hence their view that it they should withdraw validation.

You can make it about my personal opinion but I'm not the one setting AUK policy on this. Your beef seems to be with AUK not me. I accept that your opinion differs and I'm not making any attempt to change your mind as it doesn't really matter to me.

As a rough precis of my thoughts in the original thread:-
* Exercise is good and there are no limits on exercise[1]
* Audax is more than just exercise
* One of the primary items in the current guidance is "Stay at home as much as possible" and unnecessary things like Audax would fall under this (in my opinion)
* No-one could guarantee that all riders would be able to stick to social distancing and hygiene standards even if rides were limited to solo DIYs or Perms (every individual will think they can individually but AUK has to think of the average and worst cases)
* Given all of this (and probably some other stuff) AUK has decided that it should not be encouraging people to do unnecessary activities

1. Although I would guess that the "unlimited" part was to stop people getting all judgemental about others if there were limits (e.g. the fact that people believe that there was a "1 hour of exercise per day" limit with the original restrictions).
Maybe the bit I don’t understand is how audax is more than just exercise. I appreciate a normal audax includes social gathering and coffee stops. I am suggesting removing those during times of covid leaving just the cycling and a gold star.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 25 May, 2020, 04:50:18 pm
Maybe the bit I don’t understand is how audax is more than just exercise. I appreciate a normal audax includes social gathering and coffee stops. I am suggesting removing those during times of covid leaving just the cycling and a gold star.

Do you think the number of AUK members doing 200km+ rides would go up if AUK offered validation for solo DIYs/Perms? (I'm sure some AUK members are doing it anyway, without validation.)

If yes then you can see that that kind of Audax is more than just exercise, otherwise AUK offering validation would not affect the numbers of AUK members doing it.

If AUK wasn't "more then just exercise" then there wouldn't be any change, but there have been people on here saying they'd love to keep doing a 200 a month to keep their RTTY going but they aren't doing those types of rides because there's no validation and so little point (and they can maintain their fitness with more frequent shorter rides over a more local area).
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on 25 May, 2020, 05:07:55 pm
I am stopping reading this thread. Having spent too much time with Lawers and Compliance officers I know enough to know this could be argued about for years with no firm conclusions.
Discussions will go along the following lines. Someone sets up a scinareo, it pushes against one of the rules, some people think this is reasonable and others do not. Repeat many times.
There will be no conclusion.
AUK should not get involved and wait for clarity in the rules from the goverment.
Trust the Committee.
BB

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 25 May, 2020, 05:37:50 pm
Maybe the bit I don’t understand is how audax is more than just exercise. I appreciate a normal audax includes social gathering and coffee stops. I am suggesting removing those during times of covid leaving just the cycling and a gold star.

Do you think the number of AUK members doing 200km+ rides would go up if AUK offered validation for solo DIYs/Perms? (I'm sure some AUK members are doing it anyway, without validation.)

If yes then you can see that that kind of Audax is more than just exercise, otherwise AUK offering validation would not affect the numbers of AUK members doing it.

If AUK wasn't "more then just exercise" then there wouldn't be any change, but there have been people on here saying they'd love to keep doing a 200 a month to keep their RTTY going but they aren't doing those types of rides because there's no validation and so little point (and they can maintain their fitness with more frequent shorter rides over a more local area).
I think it is very possible that it woukd, currently rrty is suspended with existing part complete efforts able to resume when validation is available.

Wete valudation to be available some members 10 or 11 months into a rrty effort in March will feel pressure to resume,  affirmative members in Scotland and Wales would not be able to,  this is less than ideal.

Additionally riders who normally only ride perms may increase the demands on diy organisers, who were already reporting significant increase in workload over previous years.

I would be interested to know,
1) is the board working on the assumption of a one nation approach,  where audax only resumes when it is possible in each of the 4 nations
2) is the board considering a return to poems before calendar events
3) is the a thought at what stage of the lockdown process audax might resume.  Obviously we cannot commit to dates as everything is moving,  but the government's have set out what the gradual steps will be described in various stages.
4) the original announcement gave a clear no rides until date x and we will review later, i think a statement after each review that all events up to date x are cancelled and this will be reviewed on date y would be helpful  not least because many people have entered events which are not yet officially cancelled,  but which look unlikely to go ahead,  but entrants essentially need to consider the event still live until told otherwise,  which then leads to training requirements
5) does the board have a view on compatability of single day rides (100/200/300) returning before multi days events (400+)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 25 May, 2020, 05:50:02 pm
Can you imagine the state of an event Finish controller being handed a steady stream of grubby brevet cards, ATM chits etc.  If all this accelerates a move towards paperless rides that will be one good thing to come out of it, I reckon.

That's easily sorted. No instant validations. The rider HAS TO enclose all the proof in a plastic sealed bag to be collected at the finish and post it in a shoe box. The organiser doesn't touch the content of the box for X days until it is safe to do so.


Yup, sounds good.
And of course coming up with ideas like this demonstrates why the board should be discussing this WITH MEMBERS!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 25 May, 2020, 06:24:26 pm
Maybe the bit I don’t understand is how audax is more than just exercise. I appreciate a normal audax includes social gathering and coffee stops. I am suggesting removing those during times of covid leaving just the cycling and a gold star.

Do you think the number of AUK members doing 200km+ rides would go up if AUK offered validation for solo DIYs/Perms? (I'm sure some AUK members are doing it anyway, without validation.)

If yes then you can see that that kind of Audax is more than just exercise, otherwise AUK offering validation would not affect the numbers of AUK members doing it.

If AUK wasn't "more then just exercise" then there wouldn't be any change, but there have been people on here saying they'd love to keep doing a 200 a month to keep their RTTY going but they aren't doing those types of rides because there's no validation and so little point (and they can maintain their fitness with more frequent shorter rides over a more local area).
I see audax as a way of encouraging exercise just like strava, park run, runbritainrankings or veloviewer. The fact you can persuade grown adults to cycle 100km, 200km or more for a rubber stamp is bizarre but true. I don’t see why getting a rubber stamp changes it from being allowed exercise to being an unnecessary irresponsible undertaking. I must admit I am new to this whole business, last year was my first full season - I did some SRs and am now hooked. I view it as a complex and bizarre version of strava.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: postie on 25 May, 2020, 06:44:35 pm
Why is there all this talk of the 4 nations aligning,  the only events i have ever heard off/.

 read about in northern Ireland are under audax Ireland ( i could be wrong).

Secondly there are many members abroad. Who ride Auk perms regular in there own country!

All i can say is WHAT FUN :demon:
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 25 May, 2020, 07:05:08 pm
Why is there all this talk of the 4 nations aligning,  the only events i have ever heard off/.

 read about in northern Ireland are under audax Ireland ( i could be wrong).

Secondly there are many members abroad. Who ride Auk perms regular in there own country!

Yes - can anyone confirm that the Risk Assessments of these rides are checked against all local regulations?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Zed43 on 25 May, 2020, 07:20:29 pm
Do you think the number of AUK members doing 200km+ rides would go up if AUK offered validation for solo DIYs/Perms?
I feel a bit silly and childish about this but yes, DIY validation and SR award would nudge me on riding more than 200km. In the past month I did a few rides around 200km but can't bring myself to go further at the moment.

I'm fairly confident I could do a 400km relying on just the food and drink I bring. Besides, I'm in the Netherlands, and restrictions are a little relaxing here anyway.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: bairn again on 25 May, 2020, 07:22:50 pm
I am stopping reading this thread. Having spent too much time with Lawers and Compliance officers I know enough to know this could be argued about for years with no firm conclusions.
Discussions will go along the following lines. Someone sets up a scinareo, it pushes against one of the rules, some people think this is reasonable and others do not. Repeat many times.
There will be no conclusion.
AUK should not get involved and wait for clarity in the rules from the goverment.
Trust the Committee.
BB

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Me too. 

The zombie thead was mercifully deleted. 

Now we have this one

Its "the jobby that wouldnt flush away". 

 
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: hellymedic on 25 May, 2020, 07:37:15 pm
I know I'm a girl but I don't see how anyone can ride a 4001 without needing a toilet stop.

Toilet stops mean touching surfaces and possibly disseminating the virus. Hand-washing facilities are often poor, whatever your intentions.

1) Even 100 km without a loo is a challenge to many.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 25 May, 2020, 08:22:27 pm
A cloverleaf route DIY returning to home addresses a lot of people’s concerns regarding transmission.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Jaded on 25 May, 2020, 08:36:11 pm
A cloverleaf route DIY returning to home addresses a lot of people’s concerns regarding transmission.

Sounds great. Not everyone lives in the same place as you. How many leaves has your clover?

Unfortunately what seems to be happening here (again) is that a few are trying to skew for the many. The many are accepting the situation, accepting what the board has said.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: postie on 25 May, 2020, 09:00:55 pm
Well said jaded!  Just a case of waiting cycling is still allowed so as i see it no problem.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 25 May, 2020, 09:12:09 pm
And how do you address the possibility that this virus may remain an issue for months or years? I see that some relaxation of restrictions is progressively occurring, allowing other activities to be reintroduced. Is audax likely to be progressively restarted or ‘all or nothing’?

All I’m asking for is an indication of AUK’s likely future direction. Even Randonneurs USA has managed that much.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 25 May, 2020, 09:21:11 pm
I know I'm a girl but I don't see how anyone can ride a 4001 without needing a toilet stop.

Toilet stops mean touching surfaces and possibly disseminating the virus. Hand-washing facilities are often poor, whatever your intentions.

1) Even 100 km without a loo is a challenge to many.

I've ridden a 700 with no toilet stop, you just have to ride hard enough to dehydrate yourself so you don't want to go, and rely on low fibre food like gels. 

Unfortunately the MR24 isn't running this year 😥
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 25 May, 2020, 09:36:30 pm

I don't understand how it can be the socially responsible thing to open up events, even if DIY's unless it's for everyone across the country. So no regionalisation.

My hope is that AUK do not resume stuff until at least September, assuming we don't have a second peak in the mean time. I would not be upset if they didn't do any events, including DIY/Perm, until 2021.

J
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on 25 May, 2020, 09:45:46 pm
Is audax likely to be progressively restarted or ‘all or nothing’?

Yes.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 25 May, 2020, 09:51:13 pm
Good. Again, which FF option is the Board aiming for?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on 25 May, 2020, 10:22:48 pm
The first one.

Or the second one.

It depends.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 25 May, 2020, 10:28:12 pm
You are not in a position to answer that question, but the Board is.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 25 May, 2020, 10:35:57 pm

I don't understand how it can be the socially responsible thing to open up events, even if DIY's unless it's for everyone across the country.

Why not?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ben T on 25 May, 2020, 11:08:49 pm

2) is the board considering a return to poems before calendar events


When anybody knows
Or policy grows
To burn off the lard
With a brevet card
It is certain to be expressed in prose.

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: pangolin on 26 May, 2020, 06:58:42 am
You are not in a position to answer that question, but the Board is.

Which begs the question again why do you keep asking on here?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Frank9755 on 26 May, 2020, 07:06:43 am

A third of the the population has put put on half a stone each during lockdown.

Wow. But feel better that it's not just me!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 26 May, 2020, 07:27:10 am

2) is the board considering a return to poems before calendar events


When anybody knows
Or policy grows
To burn off the lard
With a brevet card
It is certain to be expressed in prose.
7/10
Shows definite promise!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: S2L on 26 May, 2020, 07:33:32 am

A third of the the population has put put on half a stone each during lockdown.

Wow. But feel better that it's not just me!

The other 2/3rds have lost it...  ;D

Seriously... there was nothing in the regulations that prevented from doing weight loss activities, but a lot that prevented weight gain activities, with bars, pubs, cafes and restaurants closed...
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: marcusjb on 26 May, 2020, 07:57:06 am

A third of the the population has put put on half a stone each during lockdown.

Wow. But feel better that it's not just me!

The other 2/3rds have lost it...  ;D

Seriously... there was nothing in the regulations that prevented from doing weight loss activities, but a lot that prevented weight gain activities, with bars, pubs, cafes and restaurants closed...

Yep, the whole not living out of hotels and restaurants thing, plus being able to ride my bike more has given me a 5% weight drop since March.

The board is right to take a cautious approach to defining the future direction of AUK. This will be a time of massive change, events will be fundamentally different for the foreseeable future if, indeed, they are viable.

DIY and perms may well be possible sooner of course, but AUK needs to be ready for, potentially, 2 seasons with no significant events and having the capacity (sorry to sound like Hancock) for a potentially large increase in DIY submissions.

My suspicion is that any event with sleeping accommodation will have to be fundamentally changed, and may well be unviable or the preserve of the wealthiest riders (if the BCM (for example) could only accommodate say 50 riders at Kings, entry costs may have to go up considerably)(either because of the limited capacity or the requirement to have two sleep facilities hired).

It will be a challenging time for us all.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on 26 May, 2020, 09:11:34 am
Good post.

Yes in practical terms a complete resumptioin of Calendar events just isn't going to happen.  For a start, if and when the current lock on event entries is lifted, I can well imagine half the organisers turning round and saying "oh no, I thought my event was cancelled, I don't want to run it any more".  For the rest, well the whole process of gathering entries has to be gone through before anything can be ridden, and I would guess that entry levels will be well down on what was expected/budgeted for.  By July few people will have the fitness to contemplate anything longer than a 200.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: S2L on 26 May, 2020, 09:17:21 am


My suspicion is that any event with sleeping accommodation will have to be fundamentally changed, and may well be unviable or the preserve of the wealthiest riders (if the BCM (for example) could only accommodate say 50 riders at Kings, entry costs may have to go up considerably)(either because of the limited capacity or the requirement to have two sleep facilities hired).

It will be a challenging time for us all.

50? They don't even have 50 beds... 20 at a push, one per bunk bed (as opposed to two)... and even then...
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 26 May, 2020, 09:18:08 am

A third of the the population has put put on half a stone each during lockdown.

Wow. But feel better that it's not just me!

The other 2/3rds have lost it...  ;D

Seriously... there was nothing in the regulations that prevented from doing weight loss activities, but a lot that prevented weight gain activities, with bars, pubs, cafes and restaurants closed...

Yep, the whole not living out of hotels and restaurants thing, plus being able to ride my bike more has given me a 5% weight drop since March.

7.5% down for me, lack of access to food (empty supermarkets early days, no fast food, no popping in to shop for chocolate or fizzy drinks) has me at my lowest weight for many years. Stepped on the scales this morning to find my BMI is now down to 25

Overnight events will be very tricky, I wonder what the restrictions on hotels will be, deep cleaning between guests,? rooms empty for a period between guests? All likely to significantly increase the cost of a single night in a travelodge, making even diy 600s expensive unless run as two loops from home.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: S2L on 26 May, 2020, 09:33:25 am


Overnight events will be very tricky, I wonder what the restrictions on hotels will be, deep cleaning between guests,? rooms empty for a period between guests? All likely to significantly increase the cost of a single night in a travelodge, making even diy 600s expensive unless run as two loops from home.

Travel in general will become more expensive for quite some time. A combination of fewer customers and increased running costs means budget hotels will struggle.

I'm down to 67.5 kg, from 73 pre-lockdown... BMI now is 22, it's almost a stone and it means trousers don't fit anymore... feels great on the bike though
 
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on 26 May, 2020, 09:34:09 am
All this hand wringing about social responsibility is a little off key.

I did quite a long ride yesterday (2 shops and hedges for toilets) which went through a few seaside resorts.   Let me tell you the general public does not GAF about social responsibility.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 26 May, 2020, 09:43:09 am
You are not in a position to answer that question, but the Board is.

Which begs the question again why do you keep asking on here?

Because a larger group of experienced and intelligent folk thinking about the problem are more likely to identify all of the issues and to find better mitigation measures than a small group is.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on 26 May, 2020, 09:52:32 am
Because a larger group of experienced and intelligent folk thinking about the problem are more likely to identify all of the issues and to find better mitigation measures than a small group is.

But if none of us are the board, what's the point? Are we asking us to write audax regulation fanfic?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 26 May, 2020, 09:58:46 am
You are welcome to do so. I’ve played that game before.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 26 May, 2020, 10:06:34 am


Overnight events will be very tricky, I wonder what the restrictions on hotels will be, deep cleaning between guests,? rooms empty for a period between guests? All likely to significantly increase the cost of a single night in a travelodge, making even diy 600s expensive unless run as two loops from home.

Travel in general will become more expensive for quite some time. A combination of fewer customers and increased running costs means budget hotels will struggle.

I'm down to 67.5 kg, from 73 pre-lockdown... BMI now is 22, it's almost a stone and it means trousers don't fit anymore... feels great on the bike though
I am not sure if that will be the case. Many of the budget chains are pestering me with cheap offers of flexible bookings. Even if it does turn out that hotels costs become a barrier to entry, perhaps audax should move towards a more self sufficient model.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: marcusjb on 26 May, 2020, 10:21:24 am
Big chains like Travelodge, premier inn etc. Are opening bookings from 4th July currently - with lots of guarantees on flexibility etc. Obviously, they are in the hands of the government being guided by the science.....and July is purely aspirational currently.

Pain in the arse for those of us that do live out of hotels for work (and making billionaire’s lives easier is not viewed as key work surprisingly) as I currently cannot easily travel away this next month or so; so plenty of day dashes to London, Cotswolds etc. this next few weeks.

Anyway, again, that all pushes the pastime into one for the wealthier and I would not really be comfortable with longer events becoming vastly more expensive and out of the reach for many (and increasingly so as the knock on effects of Covid-19, European trade negotiations and climate change slam into each other over the next few years).
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Whitedown Man on 26 May, 2020, 10:24:29 am
Not because of logic but out of fear or prejudice I suspect some hotels and hotel chains might become more reluctant to allow riders to take bikes into their rooms. Carrying locks of sufficient strength to give me confidence to leave my bike on the street overnight is going to be a real game-changer for me.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 26 May, 2020, 10:32:00 am
All this hand wringing about social responsibility is a little off key.

I did quite a long ride yesterday (2 shops and hedges for toilets) which went through a few seaside resorts.   Let me tell you the general public does not GAF about social responsibility.

The disconnect is really quite stark.  You look online and a bunch of people are all posting from their bedrooms, wondering whether everyone on the planet should stay in their bedrooms for the next ten years to avoid one single person dying of c*****9.  Then you go outside and find that everyone else is living their life as normal.

You won't save the world by stopping audax.  Any idea that is predicated on that is false and should be binned.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Redlight on 26 May, 2020, 10:55:17 am

You won't save the world by stopping audax.  Any idea that is predicated on that is false and should be binned.

You won't. But while the social distancing and other requirements remain in force - even if they are being flouted by some - it would be grossly irresponsible for AUK to decide to ignore them.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: S2L on 26 May, 2020, 11:29:51 am


You won't save the world by stopping audax.  Any idea that is predicated on that is false and should be binned.

I think you will find it is a matter of insurance and public perception more than anything else
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Hot Flatus on 26 May, 2020, 11:52:10 am
All this hand wringing about social responsibility is a little off key.

I did quite a long ride yesterday (2 shops and hedges for toilets) which went through a few seaside resorts.   Let me tell you the general public does not GAF about social responsibility.

The disconnect is really quite stark.  You look online and a bunch of people are all posting from their bedrooms, wondering whether everyone on the planet should stay in their bedrooms for the next ten years to avoid one single person dying of c*****9.  Then you go outside and find that everyone else is living their life as normal.

You won't save the world by stopping audax.  Any idea that is predicated on that is false and should be binned.

Fallacy by Lemming argument.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 26 May, 2020, 01:31:55 pm

You won't save the world by stopping audax.  Any idea that is predicated on that is false and should be binned.

You won't. But while the social distancing and other requirements remain in force - even if they are being flouted by some - it would be grossly irresponsible for AUK to decide to ignore them.

This isn't about flouting anything though.  This is about overcautious private citizens who get a kick out of complying far beyond the required level, and holding everyone else hostage to their evidence-free standards.  They're a destructive influence on society, and the socially responsible course of action is to get them used to having their silly opinions ignored.




You won't save the world by stopping audax.  Any idea that is predicated on that is false and should be binned.

I think you will find it is a matter of insurance and public perception more than anything else

ITYF you pulled both of those arguments out of your chamois.  Spuriously blaming lack of insurance is the last recourse of someone with no arguments left.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Hot Flatus on 26 May, 2020, 01:44:22 pm
Your argument is that we should flout the ban on group sporting events because you have seen people breaking lockdown regulations.

Circular argument. Well done.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 26 May, 2020, 01:50:47 pm
Your argument is that we should flout the ban on group sporting events because you have seen people breaking lockdown regulations.

Circular argument. Well done.
Perhaps Audax U.K. should change its tag line to the “long distance group cyclists association”


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on 26 May, 2020, 02:50:50 pm
In Ireland, Cycling Ireland have shared their approach, which they call rather neatly a 'road map'
"Cycling Ireland road map for road cycling: From May 18th to Autumn"
http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/when-will-group-rides-races-sportives-return-we-have-the-likely-dates/?fbclid=IwAR0qrQIeRDfB5I4ffJXRrEsUNTzuF36YtC9zwxrxy3jRiChQMKP1E-D4WQA
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 26 May, 2020, 04:41:01 pm
Worth noting the county level restriction at "Phase 5".

That would totally suck if it applied here and you lived in Clackmannanshire or Rutland
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Redlight on 26 May, 2020, 06:46:13 pm
In Ireland, Cycling Ireland have shared their approach, which they call rather neatly a 'road map'
"Cycling Ireland road map for road cycling: From May 18th to Autumn"
http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/when-will-group-rides-races-sportives-return-we-have-the-likely-dates/?fbclid=IwAR0qrQIeRDfB5I4ffJXRrEsUNTzuF36YtC9zwxrxy3jRiChQMKP1E-D4WQA

That's interesting. The big difference between here and there is that the national cycling body appears to be getting specific advice from government. I imagine that's unlikely to happen here but is one reason why the AUK board is monitoring the pronouncements from British Cycling, as that's the body most likely to be viewed as authoritative.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: JonBuoy on 26 May, 2020, 07:23:01 pm
Worth noting the county level restriction at "Phase 5".

That would totally suck if it applied here and you lived in Clackmannanshire or Rutland

Not sure about Clackmannanshire but Rutland is fine  ;) (https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=108934)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on 26 May, 2020, 07:39:24 pm
That's interesting. The big difference between here and there is that the national cycling body appears to be getting specific advice from government.

Not quite. The Irish government  have published a detailed five stage roadmap (https://www.gov.ie/en/news/58bc8b-taoiseach-announces-roadmap-for-reopening-society-and-business-and-u/?referrer=http://www.gov.ie/roadmap/) and the national cycling body are working from that.

The British government have only published an MS Paint scribble (https://twitter.com/10DowningStreet/status/1262425696275705857) and are making up re-openings as they go along. I don't see how anyone can expect AUK to do anything but shrug.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on 26 May, 2020, 11:18:36 pm
Some people can't resist a political snipe. This isn't about that, it's about how best to adapt to the new normal.
Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 27 May, 2020, 06:17:01 am
I notice that despite the 5km from home rule that applies in Ireland they are still organising outdoor, credited solo rides to get points to encourage beginning cyclists. This temporarily replaces their beginners group ride scheme.

https://www.axacommunitybikerides.com/search/rides/eyJyZXN1bHRfcGFnZSI6InNlYXJjaFwvcmlkZXMiLCJzZWFyY2g6Y291bnR5IjoidmlydHVhbCByaWRlcyJ9

I do realise Bike Ireland is the equivalent of British cycling and not audax.

Edit: I notice they are sponsored by AXA insurance. If it is the case that auks insurance is the stumbling block perhaps it is worth talking to AXA.

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 27 May, 2020, 07:01:58 am
Point of order:
BC's history/expertise is in racing. They have nothing to do with Audax. Even their GoRide schemes for kids are race-focused.(I've been to a session).

Which national cycling body last ran the National 400?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: giropaul on 27 May, 2020, 08:48:30 am
Point of order:
BC's history/expertise is in racing. They have nothing to do with Audax. Even their GoRide schemes for kids are race-focused.(I've been to a session).

Which national cycling body last ran the National 400?

Some of the racing fraternity might contend that BC is Sportive focussed ( alongside elite racing). Funding depends on numbers, and sportives yield numbers.
Grass roots racing is struggling in this funding- driven environment.

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on 27 May, 2020, 09:16:51 am
Some people can't resist a political snipe. This isn't about that, it's about how best to adapt to the new normal.

The normal in the two countries is completely different due to the amount of detail their respective governments have set out.

Audax Ireland can look directly towards detailed government papers that explain exactly what will be allowed in future and when. Audax UK is stuck following British Cycling's lead because the UK government hasn't published anything useful to go on.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on 27 May, 2020, 11:07:11 am
Some people can't resist a political snipe. This isn't about that, it's about how best to adapt to the new normal.

The normal in the two countries is completely different due to the amount of detail their respective governments have set out.

Audax Ireland can look directly towards detailed government papers that explain exactly what will be allowed in future and when. Audax UK is stuck following British Cycling's lead because the UK government hasn't published anything useful to go on.
The Irish and Scottish governments have produced documents with no basis. If the virus behaviour is as predicted and the rates of infection as as predicted then it may be reasonable to allow social contact in the following manner.
There are so many variables they are effectively meaningless.

BB

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 27 May, 2020, 11:51:01 am
Some people can't resist a political snipe. This isn't about that, it's about how best to adapt to the new normal.

The normal in the two countries is completely different due to the amount of detail their respective governments have set out.

Audax Ireland can look directly towards detailed government papers that explain exactly what will be allowed in future and when. Audax UK is stuck following British Cycling's lead because the UK government hasn't published anything useful to go on.
The Irish and Scottish governments have produced documents with no basis. If the virus behaviour is as predicted and the rates of infection as as predicted then it may be reasonable to allow social contact in the following manner.
There are so many variables they are effectively meaningless.

The Irish one has aspirational dates.
The Scottish one (and NI and Welsh ones) have guidance on the situation for implementation and a note saying "we may have to step backwards" along with plans of what to do at each stage with a note saying "these may not all come in at the same time, and we may need to fiddle with it"
England has a powerpoint slide...

It's really an exercise in trying to provide a clear enough guide, people are taking them as out and out time tables though hence the Yoons scream "WHYS THERE NO DATES?".

I'd suggest the devolved administrations have been overly specific in reaction to Westminsters shambolic rambling.
When I saw the RoI timetable the first thing I thought was "how the feck can you put dates on these?"
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on 27 May, 2020, 12:55:34 pm
The Irish one has aspirational dates.
The Scottish one (and NI and Welsh ones) have guidance on the situation for implementation and a note saying "we may have to step backwards" along with plans of what to do at each stage with a note saying "these may not all come in at the same time, and we may need to fiddle with it"
England has a powerpoint slide...

It's really an exercise in trying to provide a clear enough guide, people are taking them as out and out time tables though hence the Yoons scream "WHYS THERE NO DATES?".

I'd suggest the devolved administrations have been overly specific in reaction to Westminsters shambolic rambling.
When I saw the RoI timetable the first thing I thought was "how the feck can you put dates on these?"
When I saw the Cycling Ireland (RoI) timetable the first thing I thought was "well done for having a plan" and noted that the dates were tentative and carefully/sensibly caveated. I also noted the longing envy of the fact that riding in 'the North' was unhindered by irrational (from a risk mitigation PoV) 'no more than 5km/20km from home' limitations.
A plan, any plan, is much better for all parties:
1) those formulating a 'road map' to resumption (the Audax UK Board);
2) the organisers of events (DIY Regional organisers, Permanent organisers and calendar event organisers); and
3) riders looking forward and aspiring to ride in an 'audax' construct.
Reasons (some with more merit than others) like:
  'we don't know enough',
  'lots of things are unclear and may change',
  'we need to see what other bodies decide' (whose activities involve two (mainly) human-powered wheels but have no interest in niche non-competitive, non-money making activities)

are why consideration needs to be analytic, yet nevertheless come to a resolved way ahead, with dates dependent on national progress (eg shops opening), shared with members.
A list of the additional COVID-19 related hazards to organisers, to riders, and/or to Audax UK's reputation would be a useful part of the decision framework. Perhaps we could crowd-generate a list, to allow the Board to feel comfort that their list already contains all the rational items.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 27 May, 2020, 05:09:20 pm

2) is the board considering a return to poems before calendar events


When anybody knows
Or policy grows
To burn off the lard
With a brevet card
It is certain to be expressed in prose.
Poetry worthy of Dan Brown!  ;D
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: zigzag on 27 May, 2020, 05:10:49 pm
meanwhile some of my friends over in lithuania rode a 300 audax last saturday, i wish i could have been there. good times were had - no hint  of fear, stress or anxiety. terrain is quite flat, so the keen ones in the front group finished with 36kph(!) avg.

https://www.facebook.com/rndnlt/videos/269015547841979/?t=0 (https://www.facebook.com/rndnlt/videos/269015547841979/?t=0)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on 27 May, 2020, 06:13:37 pm
The Scottish one (and NI and Welsh ones) have guidance on the situation for implementation and a note saying "we may have to step backwards" along with plans of what to do at each stage with a note saying "these may not all come in at the same time, and we may need to fiddle with it"

All well and good, but from an Audax UK point of view, an approach like that is hugely problematic.  Events have to be entered/paid in advance, then ridden.  Stepping backwards gets people involved in a whole lot of refund pain.  Fiddling round the edges ofa plan involves volunteer effort that simply may not be forthcoming.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 27 May, 2020, 06:56:01 pm
The Scottish one (and NI and Welsh ones) have guidance on the situation for implementation and a note saying "we may have to step backwards" along with plans of what to do at each stage with a note saying "these may not all come in at the same time, and we may need to fiddle with it"

All well and good, but from an Audax UK point of view, an approach like that is hugely problematic.  Events have to be entered/paid in advance, then ridden.  Stepping backwards gets people involved in a whole lot of refund pain.  Fiddling round the edges ofa plan involves volunteer effort that simply may not be forthcoming.
True. It may be something that organisers can assess* for themselves - we did survive cancelling everything once (and I have every sympathy for those lumbered with the extra work).

But that's the 2nd phase - I don't think it affects restarting perms?


*What countries have stepped backwards in the process to date? I'd say it's a large hazard, but with low probability, and would be mitigated by scheduling further out, for example. Actually, events may become cheaper to run with COVID measures in place such as no indoor venue hire, which would help mitigate risk. Organisers would benefit from sharing ideas on this, and riders could  feedback on what measures would be more/less attractive to them.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 27 May, 2020, 07:37:25 pm
The Scottish one (and NI and Welsh ones) have guidance on the situation for implementation and a note saying "we may have to step backwards" along with plans of what to do at each stage with a note saying "these may not all come in at the same time, and we may need to fiddle with it"

All well and good, but from an Audax UK point of view, an approach like that is hugely problematic.  Events have to be entered/paid in advance, then ridden.  Stepping backwards gets people involved in a whole lot of refund pain.  Fiddling round the edges ofa plan involves volunteer effort that simply may not be forthcoming.

Aye, planning for anything else much in advance off that is pretty much hopeless, and now it appears that in England you could find a load of tape and bollards across the road saying "COVID ZONE KEEP OUT".  It seems that even when we get to a state where it's theoretically possible to run events, the chance of them having to be cancelled at short notice is high.

Scottish Cycling  have put out an update to cover the Phase 1 state.
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/scotland/article/20200313-Scottish-Cycling-Coronavirus-COVID19-Guidance-0

Can't really see a socially distanced chain gang working too well..

There previous stance of no events until 1st August at earliest remains.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on 27 May, 2020, 07:42:31 pm
There previous stance of no events until 1st August at earliest remains.

and Audax LEJOG has not been cancelled that finises in 31st July  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 27 May, 2020, 07:53:55 pm
Don't know if that's a co-incidence - the new, "self-sufficient" GBDURO is scheduled for August 1st:

https://www.theracingcollective.com/gbduro.html
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on 27 May, 2020, 08:11:30 pm
BC have sent a mail out.

1. National level races suspended to 1st Sep
2. Sportives suspended to 1st Aug
3. Club rides and Breeze rides only suspended to 4th July as they could be reintroduced at short notice.

If AUK are following BC then 2 is the nearest fit for calendar events.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 28 May, 2020, 12:21:32 am
There previous stance of no events until 1st August at earliest remains.

and Audax LEJOG has not been cancelled that finises in 31st July  :thumbsup:

I'll be amazed if hostel style accommodation is allowed at that time.

Don't know if that's a co-incidence - the new, "self-sufficient" GBDURO is scheduled for August 1st:

https://www.theracingcollective.com/gbduro.html

Their concept of self-sufficient prohibits the use of "Commercial services and buildings in general"
So erm like shops then? 2000km only scavenging... right...

Probably get lynched at Gretna if they try and run it this year anyway.

BC have sent a mail out.

1. National level races suspended to 1st Sep
2. Sportives suspended to 1st Aug
3. Club rides and Breeze rides only suspended to 4th July as they could be reintroduced at short notice.

If AUK are following BC then 2 is the nearest fit for calendar events.

Aligning with 2 makes some sense, though not a legal requirement "Social Distancing"* is here for a significant period.
* Amazingly none of the 4 nations rule sets makes the one single major factor in transmission actually illegal, and it's the one contact tracing is based around.

Edit: And as I flicked over to Facebook what appears first, land access issues.
Who's got governmental traction for that? Ramblers, BMC, MCofS etc.

Don't underestimate the advantage of being seen as a "governing body" by government.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 28 May, 2020, 06:45:46 am

Don't know if that's a co-incidence - the new, "self-sufficient" GBDURO is scheduled for August 1st:

https://www.theracingcollective.com/gbduro.html

Their concept of self-sufficient prohibits the use of "Commercial services and buildings in general"
So erm like shops then? 2000km only scavenging... right...

Not scavenging. Setting off at the start carrying sufficient food for the entire event. This is quite feasible. For the marathon des sables running race you have to carry 6 days of food and that is running. When travelling to somewhere uninhabited back in the 80s I had 4 weeks worth of food on a bike. The only resource you would scavenge for is water as that is too heavy to carry.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 28 May, 2020, 07:22:27 am
BC have sent a mail out.

1. National level races suspended to 1st Sep
2. Sportives suspended to 1st Aug
3. Club rides and Breeze rides only suspended to 4th July as they could be reintroduced at short notice.

If AUK are following BC then 2 is the nearest fit for calendar events.
Sportives of around 50 riders are a very good fit!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 28 May, 2020, 09:27:03 am
BC have sent a mail out.

1. National level races suspended to 1st Sep
2. Sportives suspended to 1st Aug
3. Club rides and Breeze rides only suspended to 4th July as they could be reintroduced at short notice.

If AUK are following BC then 2 is the nearest fit for calendar events.
Sportives of around 50 riders are a very good fit!

1-9 participants       Social riding
10-99 participants  club runs and majority of audax
100-999 participants   A small number of more popular audaxes
1000-9999 participants   Most sportives
10000+    A small number of more popular sportives
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: L CC on 28 May, 2020, 11:11:20 am

Don't know if that's a co-incidence - the new, "self-sufficient" GBDURO is scheduled for August 1st:

https://www.theracingcollective.com/gbduro.html

Their concept of self-sufficient prohibits the use of "Commercial services and buildings in general"
So erm like shops then? 2000km only scavenging... right...

My friend is entered for this and they have hotels booked for the start, finish *and* part way round. She was saying last week they'd almost rather it was cancelled then at least they'd know what to do- postponement won't really help them re-plan, as they don't know what will be open then, either.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Frank9755 on 29 May, 2020, 08:13:10 am
...hotels booked ... part way round.

Don't tell anyone - you might get her DQ'd!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: L CC on 29 May, 2020, 08:51:18 am
It's entirely possible I had misunderstood
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: IanDG on 29 May, 2020, 09:57:20 am
BC have sent a mail out.

1. National level races suspended to 1st Sep
2. Sportives suspended to 1st Aug
3. Club rides and Breeze rides only suspended to 4th July as they could be reintroduced at short notice.

If AUK are following BC then 2 is the nearest fit for calendar events.

Conflicting advice from BC or different for Scotland?

The e-mail to the club states Sportives from 1st August but additional information from Scottish Cycling states Sportives from 1st September.

Quote
Suspension of British and Scottish Cycling Sanctioned Activity

All British Cycling sanctioned cycling activity is currently suspended until 30 June 2020.
While many of you have been enjoying the opportunity to ride recreationally, we appreciate
that the cycling community is looking for direction and certainty on when club, group and
competitive activity can resume.
The British Cycling position has been agreed with Scottish Cycling and Welsh Cycling, but we
recognise that devolved government guidance may dictate that adjustments are required,
including the dates we are working towards.
To support the Scottish Cycling clubs, event organisers and riders, the following guidance
will further explain the British Cycling extension to the suspension of activity, in Scotland.

International and British National level races, including British National Series, British
Championships and Sportives


British Cycling are extending the suspension of International and British National Series and
Championship races and all Sportives until 1 September 2020. This will include the British
National Series events which were due to take place in Scotland during that time.
British Cycling will review this on a fortnightly basis in line with UK Government advice and
will give six weeks’ public notice of any extension or curtailment of the suspension. British
Cycling, working with event organisers and stakeholders will lead on the process to
rearrange these events later in the calendar year if possible.
For Sportives in Scotland, these events must follow the Scottish Government advice, and
this will be communicated accordingly if there is any change to this suspension date.

Taking part in an Audax with 30 odd riders is one thing but the Dirty Reiver has been re-scheduled for a mid-September date. Don't think I want to congregate with 1000+ riders so soon. So probably a DNS from me if it goes ahead.



Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: giropaul on 29 May, 2020, 02:05:42 pm
All the dates being talked about are possible best guesses. They are entirely conditional on the R number and other factors.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 29 May, 2020, 02:26:37 pm
The e-mail to the club states Sportives from 1st August but additional information from Scottish Cycling states Sportives from 1st September.

Since BC/SC have been in discussion with Scot gov, that suggests they have received the govs thinking on when we might get to phase 3.
We're still working to "end of September" as evidenced by the gov paying for the barriers to be lifted at the 3 PFI car parks.

I've heard detected cases are up locally, but likely due to a further availability of testing.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 29 May, 2020, 04:14:32 pm
There has been some discussion on the AUK Forum regarding AUK's next steps.

<SNIP>
It does look increasingly likely that we will be faced with parts of the UK releasing at different speeds (I realise that is happening already but none of them has yet reached the point where we could consider resuming there).  We are also looking at a gradual release with announcements followed sometimes several days later by guidelines that do not always seem to be quite what people were expecting.

On that basis, we will need to consider and decide on the fundamentals around those issues - ie are we willing (or indeed able in some cases) to validate some types or durations of events but not others and to validate rides in some parts of the UK but not others - and make the appropriate announcement (probably too late for this week so more likely next).

At the same time, we await the detail on the next phases of release in each part of the UK with interest.  We are somehow going to have to deal with four different release processes whatever we decide.
<SNIP>
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 29 May, 2020, 10:55:52 pm
It's worth nothing that it has a reminder for  us that the points championships are null and void for the season.

Though nothing on how it affects awards that are time/season based.
Does it mean I have effe ticley half a season less to complete R/Bwotsit?



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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 06 June, 2020, 10:11:47 am
I would simply add a year to the multi-year awards like ACP’s Randonneur 5000 and AUK’s Brevet 5000 (five years instead of four, for awards overlapping 2020), since the 2019/2020 year has effectively been nullified with regards to long brevets.

Things like RRtY are trickier but adding extra months (to the normal 12 months) seems the simplest, rather than allowing riders to do ‘make up’ rides within the 12 month period.

Annual awards like AUK’s Randonneur 5000 just end up as possible or impossible in 2020, given individual circumstances. No ‘adjustments’ made at all. Such is life!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on 06 June, 2020, 01:04:51 pm
I'd deal with RRTY by letting people resume on whichever date they do their next ride.

It only gets tricky if lockdown rules tighten again.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on 06 June, 2020, 01:11:41 pm
I offer this for discussion and would value people identifying items which I should have covered. Has to be best to adopt a constructive approach. (On other thread too)

#DRAFTY (NOTAUDAX UK) - COVID19 – Event Guidelines & Risk Assessment - England                  
                  
These guidelines have been based on the advice issued by the UK government guidelines and apply to events wholly in England. There are 3 more sets of guidelines for the other nations.                  
                  
The guidelines will be reviewed and where necessary updated as more information comes to light regarding the restrictions. The complications of 'cross-border routes' will be addressed once the relevant nations guidelines are more closely aligned.                  
                  
Our priorities remain to protect the health of our members and volunteers, and to help to suppress the spread of the COVID-19 virus.                  
                  
Guidance for events                  
Organisers need to ensure people are advised of the following restrictions on who may attend any event. This should be communicated prior to any event (eg website or promotion) and displayed at registration/brevet pick-up/start/finish.                  

People (includes organisers/volunteers) should NOT attend any Audax UK registered cycling event:                  
            
Risk Management During Event                  
Event organisers should identify opportunities to reduce the risk to riders and volunteers (organising and helping) through: taking sensible precautions and implementing practices which reduce the chance of infection and which support social distancing (SDing). These include:                  
Volunteer Plan - A clear volunteer event plan is in place. This is to ensure that all volunteers are comfortable and fully understand their roles and timings for the event, that measures are taken to maintain the welfare and safety of volunteers, and to ensure they can comply with all social distancing requirements.                  
Event Promotion - With event size likely to be limited, events should only be promoted to Audax UK members. This can be through newsletters, social media and emails. Organisers should avoid publicising events externally (eg to clubs not on the Audax UK list).                  
Entry Forms - Pre-entry forms should require entrants to tick a box to acknowledge that they must not attend if they or a member of their household has COVID-19 symptoms.                   
Limited number of Entries - There may be a government limit on the number of people who can safely attend an event. Local restrictions may also apply. You must have measures in place to ensure you comply with these requirements, such as only allowing pre-entries                  
Start times - Giving each entrant an allocated window to arrive at the event and to start may help to spread out riders and avoid large gatherings of people                  
Start time - May need to express this as a 'window' to allow small groups to be set off at intervals, to spread riders out and support social distancing at the start and in any groups early on.                  
Refunds - Organisers should offer a refund to anyone who needs to withdraw their entry for health reason.                  
Registration - default to siting this outside. Consider arrangements where no volunteer is needed and facilitates social distancing during brevet pick-up. If a volunteer manning any desk is necessary, consider their need for access to PPE (glasses and mask) and hand sanitizer.                   
Personal Responsibility - Ensure that all riders are directed to the “Participant Code of Conduct” document.                  
Brevets - Cards can be individually bagged (by the organiser with washed hands) folded to display the rider's name, prior to issue at the event. A number of spare brevets should be prepared as a back-up.                   
Start Area - Starts will need to be chosen to support any social distancing requirements with sufficient space for riders.                  
Arrivee - Location needs to be chosen to support any social distancing requirements with sufficient space for arriving riders. Consider siting location for handing in brevets outside while observing any social distancing requirements. Encourage people to move away from that area.                    
                  
                  
After Event Cleaning - Materials must be cleaned before and after use.                  
                  
                  
Toilets - If, given lack of access to eg community centre or pub 'facilities', mobile toilets are used, the units should be spaced out and the queue structured to comply with any social distancing requirements. Handles should be disinfected frequently.                  
Pre- and Post- Ride Socialising - Organisers should not promote or encourage pre- or post-ride socialising.                  
                  
Hand Cleaning Facilities - If practicable provide hand washing or sanitising facilities at start and finish.                  
Participant Hygiene - Asking all that attend to follow good hygiene practices and maintain physical space between each other.                  

Whoever is leading on producing the Audax UK Risk Assessment is welcome to ask for a copy of this. There'd be a quid pro quo.
[/quote]
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: alfapete on 06 June, 2020, 05:17:23 pm
Ajax Bay:

I notice there are three sets of guidelines for the other nations too. I hope you're currently working on those to keep yourself occupied.

When the time is right the Board will produce something like this in an hour or two, they might have something drafted already. Do you think yours will help inform them in any way?

I'm not intending to be mean but I don't 'get' the motivation for posting it....other than to promote even more time discussing hypotheticals.

You need to get out on your bike!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 06 June, 2020, 05:28:29 pm
I look forward to Ajax Bay standing for election to the Auk board. He is clearly itching to get involved.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 06 June, 2020, 05:43:55 pm
alphapete, having been on the Board myself when it approved the IT contract (to my shame), I believe that having extra eyes considering the best way to accommodate this situation would be an advantage. Leaving everything to the Board alone might mean that something important is not considered.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on 06 June, 2020, 07:34:38 pm
Ajax Bay:
I notice there are three sets of guidelines for the other nations too. I hope you're currently working on those to keep yourself occupied.
When the time is right the Board will produce something like this in an hour or two, they might have something drafted already. Do you think yours will help inform them in any way?
I'm not intending to be mean but I don't 'get' the motivation for posting it....other than to promote even more time discussing hypotheticals.
You need to get out on your bike!
Very kind, Pete. Pleased with my level of riding given the limitations, thanks. It was a bit windy down here today. I hope you too are enjoying your ride(s).
I have a draft of the other three sets of guidelines but since, in particular, Wales and Scotland are on a different point on the curve, I'm hoping that getting the set applying to England to a decent standard will inform the others. These took me, as you put it, "an hour or two".
It would have been great if you could suggest improvements or missing items - making a contribution - rather than regurgitating the mindset, shared by others and entirely reasonable, that 'Daddy will know best' and 'Daddy has probably sorted this out already' so your (that is: my) comments are nugatory. Which "hypotheticals" do you think are not worth discussing? Just name one! I suggest that these 'hypotheticals' will suddenly (change in UK government guidelines) become possibilities. How irritating would it be not to have spent time planning for resumption?

I see yacf as a useful, well-frequented forum and my motivation for posting is to offer a risk management framework for the safe and prudent resumption of calendar events (and to avoid/procrastinate mowing the grass). We have been assured upthread that the Board and those helping them read this thread. I also thought others - there are several experienced organisers on here -  might share useful ideas which will help all organisers, when things resume.

I happen to think that whoever in/on the Audax UK Board is leading on this might find what I've constructed useful. I would really like to see the current draft, and said this here a fortnight ago (thread deleted for as yet unrevealed reasons). Perhaps the Audax UK Forum might be the best place for that. The Audax UK Gen Sec said 10 days ago "we have been and will be looking in detail at the risks associated with resuming some or all of our activities." And our Chairman said "we will give organisers and members at least 2 weeks’ notice of any aspect of the suspension being lifted." 4 July is only 4 weeks away but hopefully that will be short calendar events, which is the type of event where the considerations I shared above are mostly relevant.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: postie on 06 June, 2020, 08:35:32 pm
As a organizer i have canceled my events for this year and possibly  next year as well.

300km in july
200km in September
400km in October

To much uncertainty about to plan ahead etc

As for next year , i don't plan to run events till things are normal again.

I am perfectly happy to let ajax bray know , staggered starts and allocated starts wouldn't work for me as a organizer ( i start my events and then have to go to work) , then as a rider i ride events with my mates ,riding with other people is what cycling is about.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on 06 June, 2020, 08:57:29 pm
Evening @postie
I envisage staggered starts having merit when there is a large field. Setting off 10 every 5 minutes would achieve a good spread - eg your Wonderful Wessex 300: 0525 0530 0535 with the last off at 0550. And still allow you to be away to work.
This spread of start times should also mean less peak presence (and therefore make it even easier to maintain social distancing) at the first control.
As for riding with friends, a nuanced approach could be adopted which set a stated group off in one start. We just need to manage how we get from now to then.
I do hope you feel able to run your events next year and I'd hope to ride one.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on 07 June, 2020, 10:33:17 am
It would have been great if you could suggest improvements or missing items - making a contribution - rather than regurgitating the mindset, shared by others and entirely reasonable, that 'Daddy will know best' and 'Daddy has probably sorted this out already' so your (that is: my) comments are nugatory. Which "hypotheticals" do you think are not worth discussing? Just name one! I suggest that these 'hypotheticals' will suddenly (change in UK government guidelines) become possibilities. How irritating would it be not to have spent time planning for resumption?

It is because the situation seems so fluid - and, frankly, out of 'our' hands - that spending time on planning is futile.

And its not a case of 'Daddy knows best' because events are run by individual organisers, not by Audax UK.  AUK simply provide a framework and individual organisers can choose to operate within that framework, or not.  Over the years some organisers have chosen to go the 'this is not an AUK event' route and some of those events have flourished.  Its a free world.
Organisers choosing to run AUK events operate within AUK's rules (which includes staying within the Law) and they would not welcome a whole additional layer of conditions, as you seem to be proposing upthread.  My guess is that most of them would rather cancel.
Even without the impositiion of extra conditions by AUK it seems clear that there will be a lot of cancellations  AUK seems doomed to dwindle as a result, and may have to re-invent itself in a slimmed-down form in coming years.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Slimline Saxon on 07 June, 2020, 12:37:00 pm
At Team MK we are sticking strictly to BC guidance, to the extent that we do not even want riders to wear team kit for non club rides as the public can easily identify us and have reported groups, possibly from the same family. Drivers are already becoming aggressive on the roads as traffic increases, so we do not want to give them any further encouragement to target cyclists.

We are not trying to interpret the rules or find loopholes, we will just do what we are told until new guidance is given, it is not just the riders on the road, it is all the places we may stop that have to be considered, hopefully many cafes will operate efficiently without compromising safety, my concern is the lack of washing and toilet facilities over long distances, even though we are self sufficient.

Audax will return, we will adapt, and old friendships renewed. I work in the investment field, and time is my best friend if I wait long enough.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 07 June, 2020, 03:37:33 pm
I am perfectly happy to let ajax bray know , staggered starts and allocated starts wouldn't work for me as a organizer ( i start my events and then have to go to work) , then as a rider i ride events with my mates ,riding with other people is what cycling is about.
That's perfectly sensible - we are bound to lose events where organisers can't make their events work under the pandemic laws/guidelines.

This is obviously sad, but it's no reason to throw the other babies out with the bath-water.

Meanwhile, there are perms to be sorted out!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: GdS on 08 June, 2020, 09:50:59 pm
I received the email from the AUK perms sec; perfectly happy to make all my 100-200k perms (even the overseas one) available as soon as the All UK guidelines suggest they are safe for riders and others
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on 08 June, 2020, 10:00:18 pm
I received the email from the AUK perms sec; perfectly happy to make all my 100-200k perms (even the overseas one) available as soon as the All UK guidelines suggest they are safe for riders and others

I entered one of your 200s just before lockdown, given I can start 5 miles from home.  The problem is I’ll have moved out of the area before I can ride it.  Such is life.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on 09 June, 2020, 02:48:38 pm
UPDATE from CTT on 8 June 2020
[My emboldening]
 
"This update relates to CTT events in England only.  It does not relate to events in Wales or Scotland.

"At the beginning of June, the Government relaxed the restrictions on social distancing.  Whereas it is still not considered possible nor indeed appropriate to recommence CTT events as yet, it is anticipated that on or around 04 July the current restrictions may be relaxed further.  In anticipation of that being the case, it is hoped that it may be possible to resume CTT events in July 2020.
 
"Currently all CTT events are suspended up to and including 30 June 2020.  To allow time to properly consider the expected Government guidance, Type B ‘club’ events are further suspended up to and including 05 July 2020 and all Type A events are further suspended up to and including 17 July 2020.

"The safety of competitors and all those involved with the event must be paramount.  It has to be made clear that competition can be resumed only if the Government guidelines are relaxed sufficiently so as to allow for time trials to take place, and it is considered those guidelines can be fully adhered to regarding social distancing.  If this proves to be the case, Type B ‘club’ events can be held from 06 July 2020 and Type A events from 18 July 2020.
In taking this decision it is emphasised that there is no pressure at all on clubs or organisers to hold their events.  Whether to proceed with an event is entirely at the discretion of the relevant CTT district, the individual club and the individual promotor of the event.

"A full coronavirus risk assessment and guidance as to what steps to put in place to mitigate potential risk has been prepared and will be circulated to all CTT districts, CTT affiliated clubs and event organisers shortly."   
 
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 14 June, 2020, 08:55:05 am
I guess the AUK Board will be meeting in the next week about possible changes at the beginning of July, given how cycling and other sports are moving. I look forward to a statement regarding a unified or regional approach and some more information regarding a staged resumption of activities.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: postie on 14 June, 2020, 05:36:46 pm
Until there is some change in regs/ guidelines from the government,  nothing will change for audax uk.
My advice is simple really, let the board do what it needs to do and in time events etc will return,  till then go ride your bike its great fun even with out a brevet card in your pocket,  trust me :thumbsup:
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 14 June, 2020, 06:24:56 pm
Caravan and Camping Club discussing their plans for reopening sites; doesn't bode well for communal accommodation like hostels, bunkhouses, bothies and village hall audax controls
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/scotlands-camping-caravan-sites-set-18414491

Basically 6 cleans a day of toilet blocks where they decide to open them (usually 1...)

For campsites that wouldn't have been so bad maybe 10 years ago before the "day van" concept turned into overnight accommodation.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 14 June, 2020, 06:58:19 pm
Caravan and Camping Club discussing their plans for reopening sites; doesn't bode well for communal accommodation like hostels, bunkhouses, bothies and village hall audax controls
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/scotlands-camping-caravan-sites-set-18414491

Basically 6 cleans a day of toilet blocks where they decide to open them (usually 1...)

For campsites that wouldn't have been so bad maybe 10 years ago before the "day van" concept turned into overnight accommodation.
I quite like the sound of a multiday camping audax. It seems they are expecting the “no overnight stays” rules to be relaxed. I wonder if they have inside info.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 14 June, 2020, 07:20:40 pm
Caravan and Camping Club discussing their plans for reopening sites; doesn't bode well for communal accommodation like hostels, bunkhouses, bothies and village hall audax controls
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/scotlands-camping-caravan-sites-set-18414491

Basically 6 cleans a day of toilet blocks where they decide to open them (usually 1...)

For campsites that wouldn't have been so bad maybe 10 years ago before the "day van" concept turned into overnight accommodation.
I quite like the sound of a multiday camping audax. It seems they are expecting the “no overnight stays” rules to be relaxed. I wonder if they have inside info.


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Muted as July 4th for reopening campsites. Thought that was common knowledge.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 14 June, 2020, 07:24:54 pm
Caravan and Camping Club discussing their plans for reopening sites; doesn't bode well for communal accommodation like hostels, bunkhouses, bothies and village hall audax controls
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/scotlands-camping-caravan-sites-set-18414491

Basically 6 cleans a day of toilet blocks where they decide to open them (usually 1...)

For campsites that wouldn't have been so bad maybe 10 years ago before the "day van" concept turned into overnight accommodation.
I quite like the sound of a multiday camping audax. It seems they are expecting the “no overnight stays” rules to be relaxed. I wonder if they have inside info.


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Muted as July 4th for reopening campsites. Thought that was common knowledge.
Something official by government saying 4th July ?


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 14 June, 2020, 08:00:27 pm
Caravan and Camping Club discussing their plans for reopening sites; doesn't bode well for communal accommodation like hostels, bunkhouses, bothies and village hall audax controls
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/scotlands-camping-caravan-sites-set-18414491

Basically 6 cleans a day of toilet blocks where they decide to open them (usually 1...)

For campsites that wouldn't have been so bad maybe 10 years ago before the "day van" concept turned into overnight accommodation.
I quite like the sound of a multiday camping audax. It seems they are expecting the “no overnight stays” rules to be relaxed. I wonder if they have inside info.


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Muted as July 4th for reopening campsites. Thought that was common knowledge.
Something official by government saying 4th July ?


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Yes

Have a read of their strategy document Covid 19 plan to rebuild.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 14 June, 2020, 08:18:05 pm
Caravan and Camping Club discussing their plans for reopening sites; doesn't bode well for communal accommodation like hostels, bunkhouses, bothies and village hall audax controls
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/scotlands-camping-caravan-sites-set-18414491

Basically 6 cleans a day of toilet blocks where they decide to open them (usually 1...)

For campsites that wouldn't have been so bad maybe 10 years ago before the "day van" concept turned into overnight accommodation.
I quite like the sound of a multiday camping audax. It seems they are expecting the “no overnight stays” rules to be relaxed. I wonder if they have inside info.


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Muted as July 4th for reopening campsites. Thought that was common knowledge.
Something official by government saying 4th July ?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Yes

Have a read of their strategy document Covid 19 plan to rebuild.
This - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/our-plan-to-rebuild-the-uk-governments-covid-19-recovery-strategy/our-plan-to-rebuild-the-uk-governments-covid-19-recovery-strategy#our-roadmap-to-lift-restrictions-step-by-step

Doesn’t mention camping, just “accommodation” unless I have missed something. It makes sense to do camping before hotels, but I haven’t seen anything official.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 15 June, 2020, 07:19:25 am
There was some "official muttering" from Westminster about allowing self-catering accomodation to open before hotels - because the occupants are separated from other folk - but I don't recall it ever reaching an official document.

Don't recall anything about camping; I guess it's just not on a govt adviser's radar!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 15 June, 2020, 11:55:04 am
I wonder if they have inside info.

Being an organization with a long term existence and heavy lobbying presence with government, they are probably in the loop of civil service engagement, similar to sport governing bodies that lobby government and therefore known to civil service.

Accommodation covers site based camping...
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on 15 June, 2020, 01:20:39 pm
I wonder if they have inside info.

Being an organization with a long term existence and heavy lobbying presence with government, they are probably in the loop of civil service engagement, similar to sport governing bodies that lobby government and therefore known to civil service.

Accommodation covers site based camping...

No Audax sleeping, feeding toilet facilities i have ever used meet the criteria. I use dormitory sleeping facilities in hostels with shared showers and toilets. These tend to operate on a shoestring budget and now they need to deep clean twice a day and apply distance rules in shared kitchens and dining facilities.

Forget 2020. Plan for 2021.

BB 
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 15 June, 2020, 02:47:07 pm
I wonder if they have inside info.

Being an organization with a long term existence and heavy lobbying presence with government, they are probably in the loop of civil service engagement, similar to sport governing bodies that lobby government and therefore known to civil service.

Accommodation covers site based camping...

No Audax sleeping, feeding toilet facilities i have ever used meet the criteria. I use dormitory sleeping facilities in hostels with shared showers and toilets. These tend to operate on a shoestring budget and now they need to deep clean twice a day and apply distance rules in shared kitchens and dining facilities.

Forget 2020. Plan for 2021.

BB
Cross off the events with mandatory sleeping, feeding and toilet facilities off for 2020.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 15 June, 2020, 03:08:29 pm
I wonder if they have inside info.

Being an organization with a long term existence and heavy lobbying presence with government, they are probably in the loop of civil service engagement, similar to sport governing bodies that lobby government and therefore known to civil service.

Accommodation covers site based camping...

No Audax sleeping, feeding toilet facilities i have ever used meet the criteria. I use dormitory sleeping facilities in hostels with shared showers and toilets. These tend to operate on a shoestring budget and now they need to deep clean twice a day and apply distance rules in shared kitchens and dining facilities.

Forget 2020. Plan for 2021.

BB

Same, I've been specifically thinking about how Hostels can operate shared spaces, and the follow up to that for hiking clubs using huts and hostels.
I came to the conclusion that it's likely to be "phase 4" in Scottish parlance; and that's nae gonae be this year.
Ach weel at least we can sit oot in the pairk an enjoy the haar fae thirsday....
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Genosse Brymbo on 15 June, 2020, 04:54:26 pm
Until there is some change in regs/ guidelines from the government,  nothing will change for audax uk.
My advice is simple really, let the board do what it needs to do and in time events etc will return,  till then go ride your bike its great fun even with out a brevet card in your pocket,  trust me :thumbsup:
Wot he said^^^  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 15 June, 2020, 05:07:03 pm
Time trials are starting up next month. Solo perms seem like a no-brainer, given that the AUK Board are expecting a progressive restart of activities.

Limited entry X-rated calendar brevets might be the next stage but interested organisers will want some guidance ahead of time to be able to judge whether they want to run such an event.

All of this is, of course, contingent on the AUK Board confirming whether AUK will restart on a regional basis or a unified basis.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 15 June, 2020, 07:20:19 pm
...
Same, I've been specifically thinking about how Hostels can operate shared spaces, and the follow up to that for hiking clubs using huts and hostels.
I came to the conclusion that it's likely to be "phase 4" in Scottish parlance; and that's nae gonae be this year.
Ach weel at least we can sit oot in the pairk an enjoy the haar fae thirsday....
Nothing to do with Audax; but given how much dosh our YHA (& SYHA?) make from group bookings, they would seem nae trouble quite feasible for family groups. Same with bothys or small club huts. [Just leave a week between bookings, basically.]
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on 15 June, 2020, 07:47:55 pm
Time trials are starting up next month. Solo perms seem like a no-brainer, given that the AUK Board are expecting a progressive restart of activities.

Limited entry X-rated calendar brevets might be the next stage but interested organisers will want some guidance ahead of time to be able to judge whether they want to run such an event.

All of this is, of course, contingent on the AUK Board confirming whether AUK will restart on a regional basis or a unified basis.
I cannot find any details on either the Scottish or UK websites about long distance travelling or indeed traveling around the UK and not in 'bubbles'. Can you please supply any references about this as it will be a minority subject. All I can find is stay at home and stay in bubbles. I can not find anything to support the idea that long distance cycling will be allowed, let along organised or encouraged. The CTT advice is very strange as all events are sanctioned by the police and there is advice to check that they still support events sanctioned.

Maybe this just my reading of the advice, but when camp sites will only under strict restrictions be able to operate showers I find it hard to see how long distance traveling and stopping to eat and drink will be supported.

BB
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on 15 June, 2020, 07:58:43 pm
As it stands at the moment it is not definite that TTs are coming back.  It looks like club TTs could be first as they have limited numbers and are light on facilities.  Open events should follow afterwards but it is down to the organiser and district.  2 districts have already cancelled all their remaining 2020 events.  I think it will be 50:50.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 15 June, 2020, 08:15:32 pm
Time trials are starting up next month. Solo perms seem like a no-brainer, given that the AUK Board are expecting a progressive restart of activities.

Limited entry X-rated calendar brevets might be the next stage but interested organisers will want some guidance ahead of time to be able to judge whether they want to run such an event.

All of this is, of course, contingent on the AUK Board confirming whether AUK will restart on a regional basis or a unified basis.
I cannot find any details on either the Scottish or UK websites about long distance travelling or indeed traveling around the UK and not in 'bubbles'. Can you please supply any references about this as it will be a minority subject. All I can find is stay at home and stay in bubbles. I can not find anything to support the idea that long distance cycling will be allowed, let along organised or encouraged. The CTT advice is very strange as all events are sanctioned by the police and there is advice to check that they still support events sanctioned.

Maybe this just my reading of the advice, but when camp sites will only under strict restrictions be able to operate showers I find it hard to see how long distance traveling and stopping to eat and drink will be supported.

BB
1.7 Are there restrictions on how far I can travel for my exercise or outdoor activity?
No. You can travel to outdoor open space irrespective of distance, as long as you can return the same night and do not put others at risk because of services you may need in the time you are away. You should continue to avoid using public transport and should cycle, walk or drive wherever possible.

If visiting other parts of the UK – Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland – you must adhere to the laws and guidance of the devolved administrations at all times.

You shouldn’t travel with someone from outside your household or, from 13 June, your support bubble unless you can practise social distancing - for example by cycling.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 15 June, 2020, 08:20:04 pm
Time trials are starting up next month. Solo perms seem like a no-brainer, given that the AUK Board are expecting a progressive restart of activities.

Limited entry X-rated calendar brevets might be the next stage but interested organisers will want some guidance ahead of time to be able to judge whether they want to run such an event.

All of this is, of course, contingent on the AUK Board confirming whether AUK will restart on a regional basis or a unified basis.
I cannot find any details on either the Scottish or UK websites about long distance travelling or indeed traveling around the UK and not in 'bubbles'. Can you please supply any references about this as it will be a minority subject. All I can find is stay at home and stay in bubbles. I can not find anything to support the idea that long distance cycling will be allowed, let along organised or encouraged. The CTT advice is very strange as all events are sanctioned by the police and there is advice to check that they still support events sanctioned.

Maybe this just my reading of the advice, but when camp sites will only under strict restrictions be able to operate showers I find it hard to see how long distance traveling and stopping to eat and drink will be supported.

BB

Point of order: TTs do not require police approval, they have an automatic right to happen as long as the police are informed with a legal minimum notice period.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: postie on 15 June, 2020, 09:13:19 pm
Currently all tt are suspended till at least the 5th of july, it seeme like half the country ( England)  they are expecting some big change to happen on the 4th of july!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on 15 June, 2020, 09:30:52 pm
Currently all tt are suspended till at least the 5th of july, it seeme like half the country ( England)  they are expecting some big change to happen on the 4th of july!

Club TTs to 5th July.  Opens for an extra couple of weeks.  Both dates to be reviewed after 4th July.

CTT have issued detailed guidance and risk assessments that explain how they expect TTs to be run should they be able to and if the organiser is willing.

This is what you might call a roadmap for a return to racing, albeit with some caveats. 
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 15 June, 2020, 10:15:23 pm
...
Same, I've been specifically thinking about how Hostels can operate shared spaces, and the follow up to that for hiking clubs using huts and hostels.
I came to the conclusion that it's likely to be "phase 4" in Scottish parlance; and that's nae gonae be this year.
Ach weel at least we can sit oot in the pairk an enjoy the haar fae thirsday....
Nothing to do with Audax; but given how much dosh our YHA (& SYHA?) make from group bookings, they would seem nae trouble quite feasible for family groups. Same with bothys or small club huts. [Just leave a week between bookings, basically.]

Hostels with Ensuite private room capacity should be able to operate to some level; problem is, that's not a lot of them and not very many rooms.
There's still then the problem of shared kitchens and dining areas which potentially cuts things down to one group at a time.

The problem with larger groups is they tend to be multi-household and therefore the 2m rule and needing to deep clean everything...
Same goes for club huts although running them as private lets for families is possibly feasible they're not necessarily covered for that by regs and insurance.

It's bad enough having to wipe down the office every evening to meet teh rulez.

Bothies are potentially fucked, land owners are pissed off enough at people wandering through working areas, fly camping is making things worse and when it comes to using the bothies, they're starting to get locked by the owners.
This all sets back land access rights which has been a delicate balance in some places already...

But aye way off audax now; was really just to highlight the feasibility of longer distance rides with shared facilities at controls.

I cannot find any details on either the Scottish or UK websites about long distance travelling or indeed traveling around the UK and not in 'bubbles'. Can you please supply any references about this as it will be a minority subject. All I can find is stay at home and stay in bubbles. I can not find anything to support the idea that long distance cycling will be allowed, let along organised or encouraged. The CTT advice is very strange as all events are sanctioned by the police and there is advice to check that they still support events sanctioned.

Maybe this just my reading of the advice, but when camp sites will only under strict restrictions be able to operate showers I find it hard to see how long distance traveling and stopping to eat and drink will be supported.

"Stay Local" disappears at Phase 3 in Scotland (there would be feck all point accommodation providers opening if that stayed in place); in England you can go as far in England as you want as long as you can get home and don't need to stop for the bog.

"Glen Coe" ski centre have halved the number of lodges and camping pitches they'll have open.
This also indicates that shared ablutions will be open, or Scot Loo* are getting a big order for installing extra facilities..

* Other purveyors of temporary cludgie facilities are available.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on 15 June, 2020, 10:48:38 pm
All this been said the rate in the UK population is now (according to the latest figures) down to 1 in 1600 people and if you are fit and healthy and do not have any of the risk factors like diabetes then risk of death from infection does not rise until you are over 70. There have been rare and highly publicised cases of young people been made very ill with Corvid-19, but more under 21s have died with electrical accidents since the lock down than with Corvid-19.

If this happens next year there will have to be a very hard discussion about risk because we will not be able to afford the NHS as the economy and national debt will be in such a state if we do lock down again.

To come back to audax and the whole traveling and risk thing. For the people involved in say LEJOG there is no extra risk. The lock down has not been done for these people, it has been so the NHS does not get overwhelmed with people over 70 becoming ill. This is all about the bubble and can you effectively be in one when you ride and sleep overnight in an Audax style. Sort of depends what the authorities think and what the appetite for risk is, which currently looks like zero. Which is OK if a vaccine is produced, but if not we will be in this for years.

BB 
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on 15 June, 2020, 10:54:55 pm
Point of order: TTs do not require police approval, they have an automatic right to happen as long as the police are informed with a legal minimum notice period.

Unless things have changed since I was involved in TTs all courses are risk assessed and the routes are submitted to the police. Some busy roads had to to car counted and this would be considered and the course withdrawn or only allowed to run at certain times. So if the course is approved and the risk assessment accepted and the police have no objection because of perceived danger to riders or the public or the time or date, then yes they will be allowed to run.

BB   
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 15 June, 2020, 10:58:52 pm
There's 2 elements to the travel
1) is not spreading it about the island which is where your argument about most demographic groups having v. Low risk of death fails a bit as we still don't fully understand asymptomatic transmission or length of contact required to transmit.
The later is why we're still encouraged to minimize how often we shop

2) is about how health care is provisioned and funded.
If you were to come off your bike on oh say the Berriedale braes, there's a provisioning problem because you have to be got to Inverness, normally that's not too bad, either an ambulance appears from wick and takes you south or one of the 4 helicopters turns up.
Problem is, the crews are socially distancing and ppe'ed to the hilt, whys this a problem? It slows response time down.
People will die and will have died because of slower emergency response due to infection control.
The funding is a bit more interesting. (this isn't 100% but is my understanding of it), it's based on population with some uplift for tourists, sort of. Its not a direct problem because of you turn up at raigmore with an NHS number, you get a Chi and a bill gets sent to the appropriate Trust, if I turn up, some sort of jigger poker goes on and Fife somehow pay for it.
The problem is there's only enough beds for locals and a handful of tourists based on a balance of acceptable care and affordable care, then there's the elephant in the room.
Theaters, wards and recovery rooms have been turned into sub-hospitals to cover for patients turning up with covid, that's not just patients with breathing problems etc, that's patients turning up with sprained ankles, broken legs etc.
And for as long as we care about trying to avoid hospital acquired sars-cov-2 that's going to have to remain the case.

Also if 1 in 16000 are estimated to curently have Sara cov 2 on them, that's 40.5k people UK wide.

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 16 June, 2020, 01:07:49 am
Point of order: TTs do not require police approval, they have an automatic right to happen as long as the police are informed with a legal minimum notice period.

Unless things have changed since I was involved in TTs all courses are risk assessed and the routes are submitted to the police. Some busy roads had to to car counted and this would be considered and the course withdrawn or only allowed to run at certain times. So if the course is approved and the risk assessment accepted and the police have no objection because of perceived danger to riders or the public or the time or date, then yes they will be allowed to run.

BB

You're misremembering.  Risk assessments and traffic counts are purely internal measures; the latter were introduced for sporting rather than safety reasons, though they're now regarded as having a safety element.  Police do not need to give permission for a TT to be run on a road, they only need to be notified that it will run whether they like it or not.  This has been the case since well before your racing time - unless you happen to date back to the 19th century.  If you remember the police giving permission, you remember wrong. 
Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 16 June, 2020, 05:08:27 am

Also if 1 in 16000 are estimated to curently have Sara cov 2 on them, that's 40.5k people UK wide.

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16,000 x 40,500 = 648,000,000

You either have an extra zero somewhere or illegal immigration was higher than reported.

Edit: on reading the previous post I see it was meant to be 1 in 1600.

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Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 16 June, 2020, 05:23:43 am
There's 2 elements to the travel
1) is not spreading it about the island which is where your argument about most demographic groups having v. Low risk of death fails a bit as we still don't fully understand asymptomatic transmission or length of contact required to transmit.
The later is why we're still encouraged to minimize how often we shop

2) is about how health care is provisioned and funded.
If you were to come off your bike on oh say the Berriedale braes, there's a provisioning problem because you have to be got to Inverness, normally that's not too bad, either an ambulance appears from wick and takes you south or one of the 4 helicopters turns up.
Problem is, the crews are socially distancing and ppe'ed to the hilt, whys this a problem? It slows response time down.
People will die and will have died because of slower emergency response due to infection control.
The funding is a bit more interesting. (this isn't 100% but is my understanding of it), it's based on population with some uplift for tourists, sort of. Its not a direct problem because of you turn up at raigmore with an NHS number, you get a Chi and a bill gets sent to the appropriate Trust, if I turn up, some sort of jigger poker goes on and Fife somehow pay for it.
The problem is there's only enough beds for locals and a handful of tourists based on a balance of acceptable care and affordable care, then there's the elephant in the room.
Theaters, wards and recovery rooms have been turned into sub-hospitals to cover for patients turning up with covid, that's not just patients with breathing problems etc, that's patients turning up with sprained ankles, broken legs etc.
And for as long as we care about trying to avoid hospital acquired sars-cov-2 that's going to have to remain the case.

Also if 1 in 16000 are estimated to curently have Sara cov 2 on them, that's 40.5k people UK wide.

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Those are all good arguments against tourism but not specifically about tourism by bike. If authorities decide tourism is ok and the benefits outweigh the risks, then I would have thought that would apply to bicycle travel too.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 16 June, 2020, 08:42:20 am
Yes hence why "the travel"

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Frank9755 on 16 June, 2020, 01:40:55 pm

If this happens next year there will have to be a very hard discussion about risk because we will not be able to afford the NHS as the economy and national debt will be in such a state if we do lock down again.


We will be able to afford the NHS.  We might choose not to pay for it, but that would be a political choice.

This is the chart that explains it: national debt as % of GDP has risen recently but remains low by historical levels, and would still be within the post-war range were next year to see a second wave (which seems to be the base case for government scientists now). 

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/UK_GDP.png)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on 16 June, 2020, 08:35:48 pm

If this happens next year there will have to be a very hard discussion about risk because we will not be able to afford the NHS as the economy and national debt will be in such a state if we do lock down again.


We will be able to afford the NHS.  We might choose not to pay for it, but that would be a political choice.

This is the chart that explains it: national debt as % of GDP has risen recently but remains low by historical levels, and would still be within the post-war range were next year to see a second wave (which seems to be the base case for government scientists now). 

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/UK_GDP.png)
The economy will shrink by about 10% this year (but who knows) and the costs of ferloughing are not yet known. The rest of the world is doing this as well. Who knows what will happen?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on 16 June, 2020, 08:59:09 pm

Also if 1 in 16000 are estimated to curently have Sara cov 2 on them, that's 40.5k people UK wide.

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16,000 x 40,500 = 648,000,000

You either have an extra zero somewhere or illegal immigration was higher than reported.

Edit: on reading the previous post I see it was meant to be 1 in 1600.

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The error is 1,600 x 40,500 = 64,800,000

Some where the 1:1600 became 16,000 in requote.

BB
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: giropaul on 16 June, 2020, 09:15:04 pm

To come back to audax and the whole traveling and risk thing. For the people involved in say LEJOG there is no extra risk. The lock down has not been done for these people, it has been so the NHS does not get overwhelmed with people over 70 becoming ill. This is all about the bubble and can you effectively be in one when you ride and sleep overnight in an Audax style. Sort of depends what the authorities think and what the appetite for risk is, which currently looks like zero. Which is OK if a vaccine is produced, but if not we will be in this for years.

BB

The issue becomes that even if one of the participants is an asymptotic carrier, there is the possibility that any person returning from the event could “ seed” a new infection cluster.
The only model available as far as I know at the moment is the golf/ football one, where the “ bubble” of people can only leave the bubble following rigorous testing (at the organiser’s cost as far as I can ascertain).
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on 16 June, 2020, 09:32:43 pm

To come back to audax and the whole traveling and risk thing. For the people involved in say LEJOG there is no extra risk. The lock down has not been done for these people, it has been so the NHS does not get overwhelmed with people over 70 becoming ill. This is all about the bubble and can you effectively be in one when you ride and sleep overnight in an Audax style. Sort of depends what the authorities think and what the appetite for risk is, which currently looks like zero. Which is OK if a vaccine is produced, but if not we will be in this for years.

BB
So if that view of the bubble is accepted how on earth do we run Audax events with overnight stops?

The issue becomes that even if one of the participants is an asymptotic carrier, there is the possibility that any person returning from the event could “ seed” a new infection cluster.
The only model available as far as I know at the moment is the golf/ football one, where the “ bubble” of people can only leave the bubble following rigorous testing (at the organiser’s cost as far as I can ascertain).
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 16 June, 2020, 09:43:58 pm

To come back to audax and the whole traveling and risk thing. For the people involved in say LEJOG there is no extra risk. The lock down has not been done for these people, it has been so the NHS does not get overwhelmed with people over 70 becoming ill. This is all about the bubble and can you effectively be in one when you ride and sleep overnight in an Audax style. Sort of depends what the authorities think and what the appetite for risk is, which currently looks like zero. Which is OK if a vaccine is produced, but if not we will be in this for years.

BB

The issue becomes that even if one of the participants is an asymptotic carrier, there is the possibility that any person returning from the event could “ seed” a new infection cluster.
The only model available as far as I know at the moment is the golf/ football one, where the “ bubble” of people can only leave the bubble following rigorous testing (at the organiser’s cost as far as I can ascertain).
In the same way as visiting the supermarket (or zoo or vendor of soft furnishings) you could pick up an infection and”seed” a new cluster. I will assess risks nearer the time and decide whether to use provided accommodation or food (if either is still offered) and decide whether to isolate on return (something I would not bother with after a trip to the supermarket). The cycling part of audax must be one of the most risk free activities in existence from a covid point of view. It is how and to what extent you engage in the non cycling parts that could pose a risk.

People will continue to get covid-19 for months or even years to come. The infrastructure (testing, contact tracing,isolation) needs to be in place to stop infected people causing an outbreak.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Kim on 16 June, 2020, 09:47:14 pm
Caravan and Camping Club discussing their plans for reopening sites; doesn't bode well for communal accommodation like hostels, bunkhouses, bothies and village hall audax controls
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/scotlands-camping-caravan-sites-set-18414491

The article supposedly[1] discusses the Caravan and Motorhome Club (formerly the Caravan Club), which is a different organisation to the Camping and Caravanning Club.  This is a bit People's Front of Judea, I know, but it's important if you want to use a members-only site or camp in a tent.

C&CC have a statement detailing their COVID-19 measures here: https://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/travelplanning/coronavirus/


[1] The quoted statements look suspiciously like those on the above page, so it's possible the author was confused, or they've heavily borrowed from each other's wording (I can't tell, the Caravan and Motorhome Club website isn't working).
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on 16 June, 2020, 09:51:27 pm
Caravan and Camping Club discussing their plans for reopening sites; doesn't bode well for communal accommodation like hostels, bunkhouses, bothies and village hall audax controls
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/scotlands-camping-caravan-sites-set-18414491

The article discusses the Caravan and Motorhome Club (formerly the Caravan Club), which is a different organisation to the Camping and Caravanning Club.  This is a bit People's Front of Judea, I know, but it's important if you want to use a members-only site or camp in a tent.

I think the point I was trying to make was that if an organised site is imposing such strict rule how can an event that has no controls or structure happen?

BB
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Kim on 16 June, 2020, 09:55:18 pm
I think the point I was trying to make was that if an organised site is imposing such strict rule how can an event that has no controls or structure happen?

Sure, I just thought it was prudent to flag up that there are two organisations with similar names, since their policies may differ and one of them is basically useless for cycle-campers.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 16 June, 2020, 10:03:09 pm
So if that view of the bubble is accepted how on earth do we run Audax events with overnight stops?

The issue becomes that even if one of the participants is an asymptotic carrier, there is the possibility that any person returning from the event could “ seed” a new infection cluster.
The only model available as far as I know at the moment is the golf/ football one, where the “ bubble” of people can only leave the bubble following rigorous testing (at the organiser’s cost as far as I can ascertain).

I was trying to avoid saying it outright, but... I don't think it's particularly feasible.

This is why professional sports that don't socially distance by default are coming back before amateur.
At work we've been told that any reason to quarantine will need to be taken as annual leave and to discuss with line managers.
Although that's aimed at holidays, the same applies for the sports people amongst us.

Scottish Football (yes yes I know) are postponing the start of next season and shortening it by 9 games for all but the "Premier" league in the hope of avoiding restrictions on players, many are part time and have better paying jobs to go to.

In the same way as visiting the supermarket (or zoo or vendor of soft furnishings) you could pick up an infection and”seed” a new cluster. I will assess risks nearer the time and decide whether to use provided accommodation or food (if either is still offered) and decide whether to isolate on return (something I would not bother with after a trip to the supermarket). The cycling part of audax must be one of the most risk free activities in existence from a covid point of view. It is how and to what extent you engage in the non cycling parts that could pose a risk.

People will continue to get covid-19 for months or even years to come. The infrastructure (testing, contact tracing,isolation) needs to be in place to stop infected people causing an outbreak.

Viral load from brief encounters is likely to be minimal, so the supermarket etc, not too bad.
It's one of the reasons with lockdown the shift from community spread to care home and hospital wards was so noticeable.
But then patients are getting pre-screened before electives and outpatient attendances and testing positive with no symptoms so there's transmission in the wilds too.

Cycling in isloation is indeed one of the most risk free you can get, and if it does go wrong,  you can probably walk home, or if it's bad bad and need to be carted off to a nearby hospital at least there's no firemen needed to cut you out or (usually) MRT to recover you, just a paramedic and a driver needed before the ED take over.
Obviously aimed at walk ins but: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVMCvbqngpA gives an idea of what extra is involved.

It's just the split of capacity that's a problem if everyone goes nuts and demand goes back to normal.
Could be worse... could be Ne'ers...



Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 16 June, 2020, 10:09:21 pm
Caravan and Camping Club discussing their plans for reopening sites; doesn't bode well for communal accommodation like hostels, bunkhouses, bothies and village hall audax controls
https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/scotlands-camping-caravan-sites-set-18414491

The article supposedly[1] discusses the Caravan and Motorhome Club (formerly the Caravan Club), which is a different organisation to the Camping and Caravanning Club.  This is a bit People's Front of Judea, I know, but it's important if you want to use a members-only site or camp in a tent.

C&CC have a statement detailing their COVID-19 measures here: https://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/travelplanning/coronavirus/


[1] The quoted statements look suspiciously like those on the above page, so it's possible the author was confused, or they've heavily borrowed from each other's wording (I can't tell, the Caravan and Motorhome Club website isn't working).

I'm sure it said CCC* when I posted it, I jsut spotted

Quote
They will not be opening Ready Camp Safari Tents, Pods or Self-Catering units this season
That's interesting as Pods and Self-Catering units is something a lot of places are opening in lieu of anything else; guess it must be partly down to staffing as most CCC and CC sites are staffed by an old couple living in a caravan next to reception and if they're lucky, some assistants.

* This is how their membership fee appears on my Direct Debits, I'm always slightly disapointed that it's not a revival of Cars and Car Conversions
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on 17 June, 2020, 10:28:23 am
The cycling part of audax must be one of the most risk free activities in existence from a covid point of view. It is how and to what extent you engage in the non cycling parts that could pose a risk.
People will continue to get covid-19 for months or even years to come. The infrastructure (testing, contact tracing,isolation) needs to be in place to stop infected people causing an outbreak.
Cycling in isloation is indeed one of the most risk free you can get
I wonder what the risk of virus transmission would have been in this Tyneside Vagabonds CC Reliability Ride in '62?
https://youtu.be/6DNUIxubdGg
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on 17 June, 2020, 10:55:49 am
So if that view of the bubble is accepted how on earth do we run Audax events with overnight stops?

I hate to break it to you but cycling very long distances need not always turn into a serial sleepover.  Some randonneurs are perfectly capable of socially-distancing their way round a 600, in fact it's their default mode  ;)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Solocle on 17 June, 2020, 11:23:07 am
So if that view of the bubble is accepted how on earth do we run Audax events with overnight stops?

I hate to break it to you but cycling very long distances need not always turn into a serial sleepover.  Some randonneurs are perfectly capable of socially-distancing their way round a 600, in fact it's their default mode  ;)
A bivvy bag in a bush isn't risking infecting anybody, even though overnighting away from home is currently against regulations. You could get around that by having a support car arrive to pick you up, take you home, then drive you back to the point where you stopped...

Surly it makes more sense to just carry a tent/bag with you, but them's the rules, for now.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Redlight on 17 June, 2020, 11:34:59 am
  Some randonneurs are perfectly capable of socially-distancing their way round a 600, in fact it's their default mode  ;)

Some of us have no choice  :-[
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on 17 June, 2020, 11:54:51 am
So if that view of the bubble is accepted how on earth do we run Audax events with overnight stops?

I hate to break it to you but cycling very long distances need not always turn into a serial sleepover.  Some randonneurs are perfectly capable of socially-distancing their way round a 600, in fact it's their default mode  ;)
A bivvy bag in a bush isn't risking infecting anybody, even though overnighting away from home is currently against regulations. You could get around that by having a support car arrive to pick you up, take you home, then drive you back to the point where you stopped...

Surly it makes more sense to just carry a tent/bag with you, but them's the rules, for now.
This encapsulates the issue, its not the riding that is the issue, it is the stopping. You also become very unhygienic on a long ride. Where is the soap and water to wash your hands? I always carry hygienic hand wipes so I can clean my hands when needed (too much detail?). As for overnighting still been an issue it will be interesting to see how hotels start to open up as this will dictate the rules for overnight stays and will be done before hostels and communal sleeping areas. I do not think people biveing solo in fields has crossed the policy makers minds.

I will comment on the support car topic, that will open another can or worms.

BB
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on 17 June, 2020, 01:01:21 pm
Let's stop knashing teeth about the challenges of overnight stops not on the road. All rides up to 300 can be ridden without the organiser providing a place to stop (and x-rated 400s plus likewise). So let's get the 'up-to-300' calendar events back on the road, or at least have a road map (aka plan without specific dates) for so doing.
For calendar events, it would be great to enjoy some sociability at the start, at controls and at the finish. For me this is a major attraction and why most of my rides are calendar ones.
But for a while that will be an aspect that it's likely will have to be very limited and subject to control measures to mitigate the perceived or actual risk  with an inevitable reduction in that aspect of our rides. I suggested some possible ways of doing that (control measures) in my post a while ago and I see that PW has outlined a not dissimilar set on the AudaxUK forum. So let's get on with that.
For those for whom the social interactions are a key aspect of audaxing, the option exists now to arrange adhoc and non-validated group rides themselves with others of no more than 6 (current England rules) and down in Devon we have been doing this. Individuals and small groups around the UK can be encouraged in this with the reauthorisation of Perms (incl DIY type). Would this not be a 'good thing' in the current relevant guidance and legislation framework?
Worth keeping in mind that Audax UK's first-listed principal objective is "to encourage, promote, develop and control the sport and pastime of non competitive long distance cycling . . ."
Chairman AudaxUK (4 June): "we have agreed that we may validate events of shorter duration or individual/small group events such as Permanents and DIYs prior to re-commencing all events, but this will be entirely dependent on any further changes to the relevant guidance and legislation . . . . Organisers will have total discretion over whether events that can go ahead will go ahead."
"the current suspension of all events will remain in place until July 4th at the earliest and that we will give organisers and members at least 2 weeks’ notice . .    The Board will be meeting again in mid-June"
"2 week's notice" before 4 July is 20 June - not long. I hope the Board take a positive approach to the reintroduction of its support (encouragement, promotion) for long distance cycling, within the bounds of national laws and guidelines (control) applying to the roads being ridden.

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 17 June, 2020, 01:06:03 pm
Indeed. Given CTT’s recent announcements, I expect that the Board has met or is meeting this week to decide whether AUK will restart in a unified fashion or regionally (I expect the second) and to set out how it will happen.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mmmmartin on 17 June, 2020, 01:07:48 pm
national debt as % of GDP has risen recently but remains low by historical levels, and would still be within the post-war range were next year to see a second wave (which seems to be the base case for government scientists now). 
Not only that but interest rates paid by governments are now lower than ever before and some governments are achieving borrowing at negative interest rates which means they're making a (small) profit on the borrowing. So let's be unworried by the cost to the future taxpayer. It still has to be paid back, but the burden to the future taxpayer is lower than it has been in the past.

In a nutshell: if we have to have a pandemic, now is the time.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 17 June, 2020, 01:44:59 pm
Where is the soap and water to wash your hands?
The little bar of soap is in the frame bag. The water is in the water bottle.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 17 June, 2020, 02:25:58 pm
Where is the soap and water to wash your hands?
The little bar of soap is in the frame bag. The water is in the water bottle.


High5 makes terrible hand wash, believe me I tried it by mistake once.  :P

It definitely looks like we should be able to restart DIYs in July in some form here with the forecast lifting of travel restrictions for leisure.
Wales may be an ongoing sticking point.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Frank9755 on 17 June, 2020, 04:36:47 pm
national debt as % of GDP has risen recently but remains low by historical levels, and would still be within the post-war range were next year to see a second wave (which seems to be the base case for government scientists now). 
Not only that but interest rates paid by governments are now lower than ever before and some governments are achieving borrowing at negative interest rates which means they're making a (small) profit on the borrowing. So let's be unworried by the cost to the future taxpayer. It still has to be paid back, but the burden to the future taxpayer is lower than it has been in the past.

In a nutshell: if we have to have a pandemic, now is the time.

As readers of the FT will know, it doesn't even have to be paid back - just rolled over / refinanced at some point.  Paying it back would be unhelpfully deflationary.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 17 June, 2020, 07:04:45 pm
So if that view of the bubble is accepted how on earth do we run Audax events with overnight stops?

I hate to break it to you but cycling very long distances need not always turn into a serial sleepover.  Some randonneurs are perfectly capable of socially-distancing their way round a 600, in fact it's their default mode  ;)
A bivvy bag in a bush isn't risking infecting anybody, even though overnighting away from home is currently against regulations. You could get around that by having a support car arrive to pick you up, take you home, then drive you back to the point where you stopped...

Surly it makes more sense to just carry a tent/bag with you, but them's the rules, for now.
This encapsulates the issue, its not the riding that is the issue, it is the stopping. You also become very unhygienic on a long ride. Where is the soap and water to wash your hands? I always carry hygienic hand wipes so I can clean my hands when needed (too much detail?).
Yup, jobsa good'un. Or do this:

The little bar of soap is in the frame bag. The water is in the water bottle.


So that's the sleeping issues and the hygiene issues sorted. We'll have to wait a long time for events with 50 mats laid-out in a village hall or school, but so be-it. (there will probably be an intermediate period where the more extravagant riders on an X-600+ can book hotel rooms!)

And of course perms can be started pretty much ASAP, the board just need to show willing.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 17 June, 2020, 07:23:44 pm
So if that view of the bubble is accepted how on earth do we run Audax events with overnight stops?

I hate to break it to you but cycling very long distances need not always turn into a serial sleepover.  Some randonneurs are perfectly capable of socially-distancing their way round a 600, in fact it's their default mode  ;)
A bivvy bag in a bush isn't risking infecting anybody, even though overnighting away from home is currently against regulations. You could get around that by having a support car arrive to pick you up, take you home, then drive you back to the point where you stopped...

Surly it makes more sense to just carry a tent/bag with you, but them's the rules, for now.
This encapsulates the issue, its not the riding that is the issue, it is the stopping. You also become very unhygienic on a long ride. Where is the soap and water to wash your hands? I always carry hygienic hand wipes so I can clean my hands when needed (too much detail?).
Yup, jobsa good'un. Or do this:

The little bar of soap is in the frame bag. The water is in the water bottle.


So that's the sleeping issues and the hygiene issues sorted. We'll have to wait a long time for events with 50 mats laid-out in a village hall or school, but so be-it. (there will probably be an intermediate period where the more extravagant riders on an X-600+ can book hotel rooms!)

And of course perms can be started pretty much ASAP, the board just need to show willing.
I must admit I am fairly new to audax with only 1 full season to my name; my only sleeping in a control was for about 2 hours in fougères on pbp last summer. Otherwise I have slept in hotels or a bivvy bag on the half dozen occasions overnight was involved.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on 17 June, 2020, 10:00:02 pm
So if that view of the bubble is accepted how on earth do we run Audax events with overnight stops?

I hate to break it to you but cycling very long distances need not always turn into a serial sleepover.  Some randonneurs are perfectly capable of socially-distancing their way round a 600, in fact it's their default mode  ;)
A bivvy bag in a bush isn't risking infecting anybody, even though overnighting away from home is currently against regulations. You could get around that by having a support car arrive to pick you up, take you home, then drive you back to the point where you stopped...

Surly it makes more sense to just carry a tent/bag with you, but them's the rules, for now.
This encapsulates the issue, its not the riding that is the issue, it is the stopping. You also become very unhygienic on a long ride. Where is the soap and water to wash your hands? I always carry hygienic hand wipes so I can clean my hands when needed (too much detail?).
Yup, jobsa good'un. Or do this:

The little bar of soap is in the frame bag. The water is in the water bottle.


So that's the sleeping issues and the hygiene issues sorted. We'll have to wait a long time for events with 50 mats laid-out in a village hall or school, but so be-it. (there will probably be an intermediate period where the more extravagant riders on an X-600+ can book hotel rooms!)

And of course perms can be started pretty much ASAP, the board just need to show willing.
I must admit I am fairly new to audax with only 1 full season to my name; my only sleeping in a control was for about 2 hours in fougères on pbp last summer. Otherwise I have slept in hotels or a bivvy bag on the half dozen occasions overnight was involved.


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Only 2 hours sleeping on pbp. How fast were you?

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on 17 June, 2020, 10:03:07 pm
Where is the soap and water to wash your hands?
The little bar of soap is in the frame bag. The water is in the water bottle.


High5 makes terrible hand wash, believe me I tried it by mistake once.  :P

It definitely looks like we should be able to restart DIYs in July in some form here with the forecast lifting of travel restrictions for leisure.
Wales may be an ongoing sticking point.


All my permanents are in Wales  :demon: :facepalm:
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 17 June, 2020, 10:04:20 pm
BB, I think you missed the “in a control”. He may well have snoozed elsewhere along the PBP route.
Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 17 June, 2020, 10:04:22 pm
Only two hours sleep in a control. I slept in various other places to a total of 9 hours.

Edit: including a surprise half hour. I was quite happily cycling along counting down to 200km to go when I woke up snuggled in a doorway.

Edit edit: 52 hours of cycling, 9 hours of sleeping, 7 hours fritterage. It is the last number that still surprises me. I felt I was jogging through the controls grabbing food on the run most of the time.

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on 17 June, 2020, 11:12:53 pm
This is rather my point.  Considering long-distance cycling in terms of "where/how do I sleep" is rather bizarre.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 17 June, 2020, 11:19:43 pm
Rather nice e-mail recieved.
1st August for distances up to 200km as DIY/Perm unless there's a spanner thrown at the works.

Awards to restart at same time, championships still suspended though.
And 6 months grace to restart RRTYs in.

Amongst other things.

Sensible
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: GdS on 17 June, 2020, 11:33:01 pm
Rather nice e-mail recieved.
1st August for distances up to 200km as DIY/Perm unless there's a spanner thrown at the works.

Awards to restart at same time, championships still suspended though.
And 6 months grace to restart RRTYs in.

Amongst other things.

Sensible

Yep; all my perms will be open from that date  :)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mmmmartin on 17 June, 2020, 11:33:39 pm
Yes, agreed. Hit just the right note, I thought.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mmmmartin on 17 June, 2020, 11:34:25 pm
Yep; all my perms will be open from that date  :)
:thumbsup:
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 17 June, 2020, 11:38:13 pm
Rather nice e-mail recieved.
1st August for distances up to 200km as DIY/Perm unless there's a spanner thrown at the works.

Awards to restart at same time, championships still suspended though.
And 6 months grace to restart RRTYs in.

Not got the mail yet, but saw a tweet. The 6 months Grace on the RRTY start makes me very happy.

Now I just need to get my fitness back...

J
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grimpeur du sudocrem on 18 June, 2020, 07:02:58 am
Yep; all my perms will be open from that date  :)

Great news  :thumbsup: - will you be taking the same approach to GdS RtY claims as AUK is for other RtYs?

I need another 4 months for GdS (and AAA) RtY so hopefully get it done by November and avoid covering 2 winters for the same RtY (although no doubt I'll carry on through winter).
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 18 June, 2020, 07:12:39 am
This is rather my point.  Considering long-distance cycling in terms of "where/how do I sleep" is rather bizarre.
I suppose it is because the current rules with regard to long distance cycling in England are that you can cycle as far as you like as long as you return to your home at night. Speculation on how this might change is natural. Outside of England there is the added requirement to start and finish the ride locally.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Redlight on 18 June, 2020, 07:23:36 am
For anyone who hasn't seen it, here's the message from the Chair regrind re-stating DIYs and Perms up to 200km:

I am very pleased to be able to let you know that, following an AUK Board meeting earlier this week, we plan to recommence validating Permanent and DIY AUK rides of up to 200km from August 1st.

As I mentioned in my letter to you earlier this month, we were very keen that AUK should act on a " whole nation" basis, with any resumption of validation taking effect in England, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man at the same time.

Members of the Board have spent a lot of time and effort following the pronouncements of politicians, considering the guidelines issued subsequently, and examining the legislation that is supposed to underpin it all. Not all items of this information have proved to be compatible with each other. When multiplied by several administrations, this has caused us multiple problems in working out a way forward.

Fortunately, it seems reasonable to expect that we will see the different sets of regulations and guidance - at least as directly relevant to randonneur cycling - converging towards alignment in the next few weeks, which should mean that we will be in a position to restart validation for all of our members, including those overseas, at the same time. It may be that a particular region or part of the UK is still (or becomes) subject to local restrictions that would prevent either re-commencement on the 1st of August or the continuation of events at some later point. In that instance our intention would be to, in effect, "quarantine" that region, while still allowing events elsewhere. Permanents ridden on foreign soil (PROFs) should only take place where they are explicitly permitted in the areas in which they take place.

There may still be some differences in the rules covering the number of people who may gather or ride together and I would remind all members that they must comply fully with any requirements specific to the region in which they are riding.

I also strongly encourage riders to minimise travel to and from events.

Organisers will have total discretion over whether to offer any, or all, of their usual events. Those that are available will be open for entry on the audax.uk web site and/or by post from August 1st. DIY riders will be able to enter their events at the same time. Please bear with organisers if they take a little longer than usual to respond to enquiries or validate rides as, like many of us, they may have other more pressing demands on their time at the moment.

Completed events will qualify for distance points, altitude points, fixed wheel points etc., as usual, although all championships will remain suspended. Distances covered will be eligible for Brevet and Randonneur awards if appropriate, including annual and multi-year awards. For multi-year awards such as Brevet 5000 and Brevet 25,000 we will be looking at ways in which the time period may be extended to take into account the break in validations.

If you have been working towards a RRtY award, you will have a six month 'grace' period in which to restart the calendar and recommence your monthly rides. Once restarted, you will still need to complete your 12 rides in consecutive calendar months.

All of this is, of course, based on our current understanding of the various regulations and guidance in place to limit the spread of the COVID-19 virus and we may have to revise this should there be a significant change of circumstances, such as a second spike in infections leading to lockdown measures being reintroduced. However, I am optimistic that we will be able to re-start as planned and, over time, be able to start re-introducing longer DIYs and Perms as well as, eventually, calendar events.

On behalf of the Board I'd like to thank all members for their patience and understanding during these uncertain times and for the many messages of support we have received. Some of those messages included queries, which I hope to respond to as soon as I can.

I look forward to seeing at least some of you on the road again soon.

With best wishes,

Chris Crossland

Chair, Audax UK
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: GdS on 18 June, 2020, 08:44:33 am
Yep; all my perms will be open from that date  :)

Great news  :thumbsup: - will you be taking the same approach to GdS RtY claims as AUK is for other RtYs?


Yes  :) although the actual GdS award for 2020 will still need to be completed by 31.12.20

Mid Sussex Hilly / Hillier looking unlikely as I've had no entries although the hall is pencilled it should it go ahead
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 18 June, 2020, 03:55:35 pm
So AUK is looking to introduce perms up to 200km only (no calendar events) on the very same day (1 Aug.) as British Cycling is permitting sportives to be run with large bunches. Club rides of up to six riders are already permitted, which seems to be a fair analogue with perms.

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200618-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-announces-reintroduction-of-club-and-group-activity-0
Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 18 June, 2020, 04:00:10 pm
.... and breeze guided rides for up to 100 participants from 4th July.

 Edit: though split into multiple groups of 6 riders.

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 18 June, 2020, 04:29:09 pm
So AUK is looking to introduce perms up to 200km only (no calendar events) on the very same day (1 Aug.) as British Cycling is permitting sportives to be run with large bunches. Club rides of up to six riders are already permitted, which seems to be a fair analogue with perms.

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200618-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-announces-reintroduction-of-club-and-group-activity-0
In Scotland and Wales as well?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 18 June, 2020, 04:30:54 pm
So AUK is looking to introduce perms up to 200km only (no calendar events) on the very same day (1 Aug.) as British Cycling is permitting sportives to be run with large bunches. Club rides of up to six riders are already permitted, which seems to be a fair analogue with perms.

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200618-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-announces-reintroduction-of-club-and-group-activity-0
In Scotland and Wales as well?
No just England.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: davocon on 18 June, 2020, 04:32:28 pm
So AUK is looking to introduce perms up to 200km only (no calendar events) on the very same day (1 Aug.) as British Cycling is permitting sportives to be run with large bunches. Club rides of up to six riders are already permitted, which seems to be a fair analogue with perms.

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200618-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-announces-reintroduction-of-club-and-group-activity-0

I believe it say that in the other regions (than England) will be decoded by the devolved bodies. AUK is trying to take a national approach so my reading is that they are setting a date by which they hope guidance across the regions will be aligned.

Also BC have said that these things are suspended UNTIL those dates and will be reviewed in advance of those dates. It does not say that these events WILL be recommencing ion those dates.

That’s my reading anyway.
Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 18 June, 2020, 04:34:25 pm
BC are saying “Club activities and coaching sessions can resume today, providing they are delivered in line with Government guidance on group sizes and social distancing. “ i.e. today, 18th June.
 


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: davocon on 18 June, 2020, 04:37:29 pm
BC are saying “Club activities and coaching sessions can resume today, providing they are delivered in line with Government guidance on group sizes and social distancing. “ i.e. today, 18th June.
 


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Yes, sorry I was meaning the references that were made to large breeze rides and sportives..
Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 18 June, 2020, 04:48:11 pm
BC are saying “Club activities and coaching sessions can resume today, providing they are delivered in line with Government guidance on group sizes and social distancing. “ i.e. today, 18th June.
 


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Yes, sorry I was meaning the references that were made to large breeze rides and sportives..
They seem to be saying in the detail that from today, stage 3, multiple groups of 6 riders are allowed. The breeze rides are starting under stage 3 (which starts today) but because stage 3 has been brought forward nobody is ready (all the bookings are from 4th July). So in summary they have brought stage 3 forward from 4th July to today.

Sportives would be stage 4 which is still unchanged as 1st aug.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 18 June, 2020, 05:47:15 pm
So AUK is looking to introduce perms up to 200km only (no calendar events) on the very same day (1 Aug.) as British Cycling is permitting sportives to be run with large bunches. Club rides of up to six riders are already permitted, which seems to be a fair analogue with perms.

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200618-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-announces-reintroduction-of-club-and-group-activity-0
In Scotland and Wales as well?
No just England.


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Scottish Cycling saying they'll give an update on Monday.

Wales may be the sticking point.
Infections apparently up in Angelsey going by what's in the report about the chicken factory outbreak.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 18 June, 2020, 05:50:54 pm
So AUK is looking to introduce perms up to 200km only (no calendar events) on the very same day (1 Aug.) as British Cycling is permitting sportives to be run with large bunches. Club rides of up to six riders are already permitted, which seems to be a fair analogue with perms.

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200618-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-announces-reintroduction-of-club-and-group-activity-0
In Scotland and Wales as well?
No just England.


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Scottish Cycling saying they'll give an update on Monday.

Wales may be the sticking point.
Infections apparently up in Angelsey going by what's in the report about the chicken factory outbreak.
I am avoiding meat processing plants on all my rides.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/15/us-coronavirus-meat-packing-plants-food


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: postie on 18 June, 2020, 06:39:29 pm
Good move by the board in my opinion and in line with what is currently allowed by government ( in England) .
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 18 June, 2020, 06:55:55 pm
So AUK is looking to introduce perms up to 200km only (no calendar events) on the very same day (1 Aug.) as British Cycling is permitting sportives to be run with large bunches. Club rides of up to six riders are already permitted, which seems to be a fair analogue with perms.

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200618-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-announces-reintroduction-of-club-and-group-activity-0
In Scotland and Wales as well?
No just England.


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Scottish Cycling saying they'll give an update on Monday.

Wales may be the sticking point.
Infections apparently up in Angelsey going by what's in the report about the chicken factory outbreak.
I am avoiding meat processing plants on all my rides.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/15/us-coronavirus-meat-packing-plants-food


yes, although the Wrescam is claiming it's due to an increase in community cases

"Whilst we are seeing a number of cases on site, Public Health Wales support our view that there is no clear evidence to suggest that there is a spread of the virus within the site, we are seeing a reflection on site of the increases in cases within the locality," it said.

Angelsey seems to be isolated.

Still it's 100 new cases detected so far.
And Wales R rate is stubbornly high despite them having the strictest lockdown of the UK nations.

Will find out what they decide to do next tomorrow.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grimpeur du sudocrem on 18 June, 2020, 09:09:31 pm
Yep; all my perms will be open from that date  :)

Great news  :thumbsup: - will you be taking the same approach to GdS RtY claims as AUK is for other RtYs?


Yes  :) although the actual GdS award for 2020 will still need to be completed by 31.12.20

Mid Sussex Hilly / Hillier looking unlikely as I've had no entries although the hall is pencilled it should it go ahead

That's fine, I've got 3 GdS for 2020 and need 4 more for GdSRtY (and AAARtY) which I intend to resume in August, so should tie in nicely.

If you do run MSH I'll be there - I guess everyone gave up entering things ages ago (I did) and obviously no-one knows yet when calendar events can restart, but once they do I would imagine pent-up demand will be high!

If not - drop me a line and I'll ride it with you as a DIY with some cafes and a pub  :)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on 18 June, 2020, 11:37:18 pm
British Cycling (18 June) - a positive, encouraging, timely yet controlled approach (and England focused).
Sanctions (ie immediately lifts the suspension on club and group activity, so authorises under BC auspices) club and group rides - limitation on group size and SD to be observed.
I wonder what additional risks Audax UK consider that individuals (and small groups) create or hazard when riding Permanents, including the DIY type? Presumably there is the judgement of additional risk to determine a delay till 1 Aug for such rides. Or is British Cycling being reckless allowing the types of activity listed? I suppose that Audax UK's reticence to restart validation of Perms/DIY till 1 Aug is driven by an overiding wish to be United, based on the (very reasonable) expectation that the home nations will align to sufficient extent (by 1 Aug), or that the long distance aspect of our rides risk 'spreading' the virus from one part of the country to another, or that validation of rides by Audax UK is really not important so what's the problem with waiting 4 weeks longer (than early July), or a combination of those factors
But we just don't know what the rationale is - I think it would be good to understand.

"British Cycling has today announced the next step in its plan to resume all sanctioned cycling activities in England, with coaching and group activity beginning to return from today (18 June). The national governing body has also announced that planning is underway to resume certain competitive events – such as time trials and downhill mountain biking – at the next stage of the process.

"The current suspension of sanctioned club and coaching activity was due to lift on 4 July, however with the support of new guidance published today on safe delivery, certain activities are now permitted to return with immediate effect.

"Details in the ‘British Cycling: The Way Forward’ update include that:

    Club activities and coaching sessions can resume today, providing they are delivered in line with Government guidance on group sizes and social distancing.
    The suspension of recreation programmes – such as HSBC UK Breeze and Guided Rides – will remain in place until 4 July, to enable Breeze Champions and Ride Leaders to access new training materials on safely leading group rides at the end of this month.
    While it is still not yet possible to reintroduce racing, the organisation, with its seven Discipline Commissions, is currently working on plans to reintroduce certain racing formats at the next stage of the process.
    Today’s (18 June) announcement moves us to Stage 3 of a six-stage plan, with Stage 6 being a return of all sanctioned activity."
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/zuvvi/media/The_Way_Forward_18-06-20_FINAL.pdf
The Way Forward - Planning a safe return to sanctioned cycling activity and facility use
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 18 June, 2020, 11:48:32 pm
Hm actually that's interesting because someone I know said they were restarting their training sessions as we went to "phase 1" here since it was compatible with him offering 1 socially distanced session a day.

I Guess his capacity doubles in 12 minutes!

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 19 June, 2020, 05:09:12 am
Hm actually that's interesting because someone I know said they were restarting their training sessions as we went to "phase 1" here since it was compatible with him offering 1 socially distanced session a day.

I Guess his capacity doubles in 12 minutes!

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1:1 coaching was already allowed by BC


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 19 June, 2020, 07:49:51 am
Hm actually that's interesting because someone I know said they were restarting their training sessions as we went to "phase 1" here since it was compatible with him offering 1 socially distanced session a day.

I Guess his capacity doubles in 12 minutes!

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1:1 coaching was already allowed by BC


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Ah!

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 19 June, 2020, 12:05:26 pm
Wales looks to be reducing travel and tourism restrictions in July.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-53090890

Does this bring the different countries into closer alignment when riding brevets?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on 19 June, 2020, 12:39:45 pm

If this happens next year there will have to be a very hard discussion about risk because we will not be able to afford the NHS as the economy and national debt will be in such a state if we do lock down again.


We will be able to afford the NHS.  We might choose not to pay for it, but that would be a political choice.

This is the chart that explains it: national debt as % of GDP has risen recently but remains low by historical levels, and would still be within the post-war range were next year to see a second wave (which seems to be the base case for government scientists now). 

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/UK_GDP.png)
Please see link to BBC news
BBC News - UK debt now larger than size of whole economy
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53104734

To compare debt to historic times like WW2 does not make sence to me. We are not out of this yet, we still have to pay for 3 months of ferloughing and we do not yet the impact on many businesses.

What will be able to afford next year?

BB

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on 19 June, 2020, 12:55:44 pm
What will be able to afford next year?

I dunno but it's not going to be Audax UK's problem is it?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 19 June, 2020, 03:04:59 pm
So AUK is looking to introduce perms up to 200km only (no calendar events) on the very same day (1 Aug.) as British Cycling is permitting sportives to be run with large bunches. Club rides of up to six riders are already permitted, which seems to be a fair analogue with perms.

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200618-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-announces-reintroduction-of-club-and-group-activity-0
In Scotland and Wales as well?
No just England.


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Scottish Cycling saying they'll give an update on Monday.

Wales may be the sticking point.
Infections apparently up in Angelsey going by what's in the report about the chicken factory outbreak.
Looks like unrestricted travel in Wales from the 6th July, overnight stays from 13th July but only in self contained accommodation (ie self catering no shared bathroom)


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on 19 June, 2020, 04:13:49 pm
So AUK is looking to introduce perms up to 200km only (no calendar events) on the very same day (1 Aug.) as British Cycling is permitting sportives to be run with large bunches. Club rides of up to six riders are already permitted, which seems to be a fair analogue with perms.

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200618-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-announces-reintroduction-of-club-and-group-activity-0
In Scotland and Wales as well?
No just England.


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Scottish Cycling saying they'll give an update on Monday.

Wales may be the sticking point.
Infections apparently up in Angelsey going by what's in the report about the chicken factory outbreak.
Looks like unrestricted travel in Wales from the 6th July, overnight stays from 13th July but only in self contained accommodation (ie self catering no shared bathroom)


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This point came up before about, its not the traveling but the stopping that is the problem. Quite when we will be able to have crowded controls with shared loos, communal sleeping and eating I have no idea. The reason self catering is opening before hotels is because the accomodation will be cleaned between visits by staff in protective clothes. There is still no indication that I can see of general hotels will open and nothing on any of the chains about booking.

Good news about the traveling, but apart from audax hotels there is nowhere to stay. This is the primary reason why I found it so hard to understand why Lejog was not cancelled. How can you offer a 5 day ride with no offer of accomodation that complies with the law? Never mind been able to feed people in one place.

BB

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: postie on 19 June, 2020, 04:45:54 pm
Primer inn have been taking bookings for awhile, currently plan to open in july.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 19 June, 2020, 05:00:02 pm
Perhaps we will have to have audaxes without the communal sleeping and eating for some time, for example like x rated events. From my inbox most hotels seem to expect to be opening in England from the 4th July. With regard to the welsh “self contained definition” this appears to mean no shared toilet or dining facilities. I would have thought budget hotels like travelodge would fall into that category. Other non audax events with overnight stops that I have done have had a bag drop to a campsite for the overnight accommodation/food. Other sports seem to be finding solutions to the challenges presented to them.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Flâneur on 19 June, 2020, 05:08:14 pm

If this happens next year there will have to be a very hard discussion about risk because we will not be able to afford the NHS as the economy and national debt will be in such a state if we do lock down again.


We will be able to afford the NHS.  We might choose not to pay for it, but that would be a political choice.

This is the chart that explains it: national debt as % of GDP has risen recently but remains low by historical levels, and would still be within the post-war range were next year to see a second wave (which seems to be the base case for government scientists now). 

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/UK_GDP.png)
Please see link to BBC news
BBC News - UK debt now larger than size of whole economy
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53104734

To compare debt to historic times like WW2 does not make sence to me. We are not out of this yet, we still have to pay for 3 months of ferloughing and we do not yet the impact on many businesses.

What will be able to afford next year?

BB

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UK National Debt went over 100% of GDP today, so that chart is well out of date. And that is without factoring in the denominator effect of the large GDP drops to come
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 19 June, 2020, 05:15:14 pm
Maybe there needs to be a separate thread on solving the U.K. economic problems leaving this one to the more complex problem of how to cycle a long way legally.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on 19 June, 2020, 05:40:25 pm
It's probably a good time to start a new thread about what rides people have planned come August.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 19 June, 2020, 06:56:46 pm
Perhaps we will have to have audaxes without the communal sleeping and eating for some time, for example like x rated events. From my inbox most hotels seem to expect to be opening in England from the 4th July. With regard to the welsh “self contained definition” this appears to mean no shared toilet or dining facilities. I would have thought budget hotels like travelodge would fall into that category. Other non audax events with overnight stops that I have done have had a bag drop to a campsite for the overnight accommodation/food. Other sports seem to be finding solutions to the challenges presented to them.
The challenges around accommodation and travel seem to be very easily solved by any UK citizen (even cyclists), but AUK seem to take the view that their naughty children  - oh I'm sorry, I mean "members"- might still find a way to misbehave, and are acting in great fear of That Sort Of Thing.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on 19 June, 2020, 08:02:02 pm
This is what Randonneurs NL sent me today (apologies for the Google Translate but it mostly makes sense)

As of July 1, a number of rules surrounding the corona will be relaxed. We do not yet know the exact details, but we believe that we can organize licenses again from 1 July 2020. This will have to be done under a number of strict conditions.
Health and safety will remain our priority even after this relaxation and driving a BRM will require more discipline than before. To facilitate this, we have the following conditions:

The number of participants of a BRM will be limited in consultation with the organizer, but will now be a maximum of 100.
Participation in a BRM is only possible by pre-registration via our website, up to 48 hours before the start of the license. Day registration is therefore not possible.

The first 7 days of opening are only for members of Randonneurs Netherlands, after these 7 days everyone can register.
Registration is done via the event / certification on our website.

Do not use Internet Explorer or Microsoft Edge for registration, preferably use Google Chrome or Opera
Payment must be made in advance and online. Without correct payment, there is no pre-registration.

The start is spread over a maximum of two hours.

Permanent checks (in catering, etc) are temporarily abolished and replaced by free checks.

The starting formalities are handled outdoors as much as possible to avoid too many people being together in a confined space. The control cards are prepared for the participant.

In addition to the normal acceptance of the BRM rules, each participant will receive a form to sign with a health declaration and rules of conduct as described here when registering.

Control cards are checked at an appropriate distance by the organization after application and validated for homologation.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 19 June, 2020, 08:17:13 pm
On the organized overnighting front, SYHA seem to think my hiking club can make use of the Rent-a-Hostels we have booked despite having booked 16 beds in 2 8 bed rooms and almost everyone being from different houses, so they possibly have a plan that fits the social distancing bill.

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on 19 June, 2020, 09:07:49 pm
On the organized overnighting front, SYHA seem to think my hiking club can make use of the Rent-a-Hostels we have booked despite having booked 16 beds in 2 8 bed rooms and almost everyone being from different houses, so they possibly have a plan that fits the social distancing bill.
Sounds like they are assuming you are all one bubble. I would not tell them you are all from different houses.

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 19 June, 2020, 09:33:30 pm
On the organized overnighting front, SYHA seem to think my hiking club can make use of the Rent-a-Hostels we have booked despite having booked 16 beds in 2 8 bed rooms and almost everyone being from different houses, so they possibly have a plan that fits the social distancing bill.
Sounds like they are assuming you are all one bubble. I would not tell them you are all from different houses.

Possibly, or they (as is possibly the case) have a better idea of what will be allowed in "Phase 3" in terms of different bubbles meeting up.
Current estimate is 1900 people in Scotland likely to have it, which is 15% of the estimate 3 weeks ago, repeat that over the next 3 weeks and it's below 500 which would give much bigger scope on reopening.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on 19 June, 2020, 11:16:51 pm
This is what Randonneurs NL sent me today (apologies for the Google Translate but it mostly makes sense)

Quite good that -  one of the best 'official pronouncements' I've seen.

Good news about the traveling, but apart from audax hotels there is nowhere to stay. This is the primary reason why I found it so hard to understand why Lejog was not cancelled. How can you offer a 5 day ride with no offer of accomodation that complies with the law? Never mind been able to feed people in one place.

It's been cancelled for a while.
LeJog (the July event) hs not been enterable since mid-March and will remain not enterable.  Yes it could still run for entrants from before that date but AUK have clearly stated they won't validate those July rides (though I suppose there is still time for that to change).
So I suppose it's right to say LeJog isn't cancelled because, well, things could change.  But in reality it has been cancelled for the last 3 months.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 19 June, 2020, 11:28:01 pm
This is what Randonneurs NL sent me today (apologies for the Google Translate but it mostly makes sense)

Quite good that -  one of the best 'official pronouncements' I've seen.

Good news about the traveling, but apart from audax hotels there is nowhere to stay. This is the primary reason why I found it so hard to understand why Lejog was not cancelled. How can you offer a 5 day ride with no offer of accomodation that complies with the law? Never mind been able to feed people in one place.

It's been cancelled for a while.
LeJog (the July event) hs not been enterable since mid-March and will remain not enterable.  Yes it could still run for entrants from before that date but AUK have clearly stated they won't validate those July rides (though I suppose there is still time for that to change).
So I suppose it's right to say LeJog isn't cancelled because, well, things could change.  But in reality it has been cancelled for the last 3 months.
No it hasn't. Cancelled eoukx mean there had been communication from the organiser to the entrants stating it was off, rather t han leaving everyone in limbo, still committed to a ride that probably won't happen. Unable to cancel booking related to the event and having to continue to commit annual leave go ty hat week, because even though it probably won't happen, it still might happen.

As far as I am concerned that only changed this week when thd board announced they would not validate anything before 1st August, and even then it would only be 200km perms.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: L CC on 20 June, 2020, 06:44:59 pm
I guess for all you blokes the world is your urinal, but for others of us audaxing without toilets is going to be unpleasant/awkward.

I was out today for 6 hours. Much longer and I'd want a flushing facility and somewhere to wash my hands- and not just soap sheets and a rinse from my water bottle.

Is there any guidance on when we can expect to see public toilets opening? Or do I need to plan routes with dense woodland, thick hedges, or reliably erected dry stone walls?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Tomsk on 20 June, 2020, 07:26:25 pm
The public loos in Dunmow have been open for about a month now - I reckon the Town Council thought they didn't need the extra watering all over the extensive and lovely Downs and Commons, [which has been very busy with picnics and meet-ups]. Especially as the Angel and Harp conveniently nearby now has an outdoor bar.

On my travels I've not come across any other open facilities. Not sure I'd want to actually use the toilets though.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mmmmartin on 20 June, 2020, 07:52:28 pm


Is there any guidance on when we can expect to see public toilets opening?
https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/shop/official-and-only-genuine-radar-key
this any good for you?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: L CC on 20 June, 2020, 08:02:54 pm
"Important - We only sell the Genuine Radar NKS Key to people who require use of the toilet facilities due to their disability or health condition."

I wasn't aware being female was a disability.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Kim on 20 June, 2020, 08:20:53 pm
I wasn't aware being female was a disability.

It is when they close all the loos.  Social model, innit.

But yes, while I have a legitimate Radar key and occasionally put it to good use accessing toilets at antisocial hours (and opening Silly Sustrans Gates™) on bike rides, this isn't a scaleable solution to lack of toilet provision.

Also, this:

Not sure I'd want to actually use the toilets though.

Currently I've been managing with hedge inspections on longer rides.  But that only works in areas with suitable hedges, and - again - isn't a scaleable solution.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 20 June, 2020, 08:42:16 pm
Public toilets closed due to Covid? In Bristol they were all closed a couple of years ago due to austerity. Not that you're likely to be audaxing through a city centre, but just for context.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 20 June, 2020, 09:21:32 pm
Not sure I'd want to actually use the toilets though.

Bogs seem to be one the largest areas of concern for transmission; although there are plenty of other reasons for avoiding public lavvies.


Guidance on Hospitality is published
https://www.ukhospitality.org.uk/page/ScotlandGuidance

So it looks like the approach for Scotland at least is that sharing a room is fine... you're just going to be getting a phone call if anyone you share the room with is found to have it.

Quote
If a guest-presents themselves with symptoms of COVID-19 in either a private room or shared dormitory or is asymptomatic but declares the need to self-isolate, they should be advised to self-isolate according to current government guidance.
This will apply to all guests that were present in the room.

There's also stuff about not opening self-catering kitchens and controlling who uses what bogs.
All a bit impractical when your 2 club trips planned are to Tongue and Ratagan and therefore miles away from anywhere you can eat.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on 20 June, 2020, 11:38:10 pm
Toilets??  Is this some parallel universe I know nothing about?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Jaded on 21 June, 2020, 08:26:44 am
Our District council has opened its toilets.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Redlight on 21 June, 2020, 09:33:58 am
Temporary toilets installed on Blackheath Common - handy if you're on your way back from West Kent to central-ish or east London
Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 21 June, 2020, 09:51:39 am
Quote
Raymond Martin, managing director of the British Toilet Association (BTA), said there would need to be a "complete rethink" of public toilets for the post-Covid age.
It could ultimately spell the end of the urinal, he says, as operators switch to individual cubicles with wash basins and baby changing facilities inside them. Work is underway on a “dig your own pit loo” guide.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 21 June, 2020, 10:15:21 am
Not sure I'd want to actually use the toilets though.

Bogs seem to be one the largest areas of concern for transmission; although there are plenty of other reasons for avoiding public lavvies.


Is this legitimate though? surely everyone wasbes their hands before leaving and doesn't touch their face while in there.

People tend not to be in close proximity in the toilets and the response in denying access to hand washing facilities which is much better than using alcohol gel anyway.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 21 June, 2020, 10:21:29 am
Not sure I'd want to actually use the toilets though.

Bogs seem to be one the largest areas of concern for transmission; although there are plenty of other reasons for avoiding public lavvies.


Is this legitimate though? surely everyone wasbes their hands before leaving and doesn't touch their face while in there.

People tend not to be in close proximity in the toilets and the response in denying access to hand washing facilities which is much better than using alcohol gel anyway.
... and there are often compelling reasons to hold your breath


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on 21 June, 2020, 11:42:59 am
Quote
It could ultimately spell the end of the urinal, he says, as operators switch to individual cubicles with wash basins and baby changing facilities inside them. Work is underway on a “dig your own pit loo” guide.

I would have thought a urinal (Brit-style, ie all ranged along one wall - as opposed to classic French-style, facing each other in a circle) was one of the most covid-safe of institutions.  No touching of anything, to speak of.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: 3peaker on 21 June, 2020, 12:00:29 pm


Is there any guidance on when we can expect to see public toilets opening?
https://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/shop/official-and-only-genuine-radar-key
this any good for you?
Quote from Link:
Important - We only sell the Genuine Radar NKS Key to people who require use of the toilet facilities due to their disability or health condition. By purchasing a key VAT free you are declaring yourself eligible to claim VAT relief and that the key is for your domestic and personal use only.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 21 June, 2020, 01:47:05 pm
Is this legitimate though? surely everyone wasbes their hands before leaving and doesn't touch their face while in there.

The 2 concerns seem to be virus being expelled into the bowl from the user and then made airborne by flushing (whne did you last see a public lavy with a lid?)
And people washing hands after touching all the surfaces in a public lavvy? you're taking the piss right you're lucky if 1/3 of users wash their hands properly in them, or are even able to wash their hands properly in them.

I would have thought a urinal (Brit-style, ie all ranged along one wall - as opposed to classic French-style, facing each other in a circle) was one of the most covid-safe of institutions.  No touching of anything, to speak of.

And of course the "rules" of using them enforce social distancing anyway.
Until someone breaks the rules and you're bursting of course.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on 23 June, 2020, 01:30:49 pm
"When circumstances change, I change my decision."
I hope that the Audax UK board will revise forwards (to 18 July) the resumption date for encouraging and validating rides, given the revision to the guidelines in England announced just now (Tuesday 23 June). We can surely rely on the prudence and self-discipline of riders to minimise the risk to themselves and others. Any risk to the reputation of Audax UK and to cycling in general is surely illusory.
The various home nations will be most likely to make similar judgements and take similar decisions in the next fortnight so the argument that Audax UK has to wait, wait, wait for all home nations to align before resuming is surely weakened. Of course local laws and guidelines varied with time/date would remain to be adhered to.
Individuals will have different approaches to the minimal risk that outdoor activity - specifically long distance cycling - incurs (to themselves and others). And they will choose to ride: at all, short distances, long (day) distances, alone, in pairs, in groups of 'x' - or not: individual decision.
Given Audax UK's objective of encouraging long distance riding, it does not need to apply additional, cautious restrictions on such activity.
Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 23 June, 2020, 02:16:31 pm
We all have to adapt to the new normal. I am doing long solo day rides (along with a bit of tennis and swimming). When it is legal to do so (4th July in England) I will occasionally stay overnight. In line with government guidance I minimise social interaction - despite feeling guilty about the economic impact I am avoiding shops. I may however in due course even go as far as having a beer in a pub garden.  It is all about balance so I am mitigating these risks by not carrying a brevet card. After a LEJOG I will change over to running ready for the London marathon in October with 40,000 others - apparently this is likely to go ahead as outdoor infections are vanishingly rare.  After that I will take a break until the first auk calendar ride is likely scheduled.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on 23 June, 2020, 03:11:05 pm
Good to see you're taking a responsible attitude, Dave, and mitigating the additional risks you're incurring/creating by making sure there's nothing stiff in your pocket which might exacerbate things and avoiding the reputational damage that AUK might suffer if people discover that it has been encouraging long distance cycling when the rest of the country is getting back some way towards normal.
Is your 7x200k LEJOG still on in late July? I take it hotels have been content to take your bookings?
Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 23 June, 2020, 07:45:55 pm
Hotels seem fine, even the Scottish ones are taking bookings. They are all offering free date change even on the £29 a night rate so if things need to get postponed I can.

Edit: though I now realise registering 7x200 in 5 days won’t work as the sleeping comes in chunks.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on 23 June, 2020, 08:40:25 pm
Hotels seem fine, even the Scottish ones are taking bookings. They are all offering free date change even on the £29 a night rate so if things need to get postponed I can.

Edit: though I now realise registering 7x200 in 5 days won’t work as the sleeping comes in chunks.


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If the 5 days refers to the Audax standard for LeJoG you need 4 nights for the journey and somewhere at the end. Probably Sea View Hotel. Then decide if you want to cycle back to Inverness or catch the train.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Tomsk on 23 June, 2020, 08:48:14 pm
"When circumstances change, I change my decision."
I hope that the Audax UK board will revise forwards (to 18 July) the resumption date for encouraging and validating rides, given the revision to the guidelines in England announced just now (Tuesday 23 June). We can surely rely on the prudence and self-discipline of riders to minimise the risk to themselves and others. Any risk to the reputation of Audax UK and to cycling in general is surely illusory.
The various home nations will be most likely to make similar judgements and take similar decisions in the next fortnight so the argument that Audax UK has to wait, wait, wait for all home nations to align before resuming is surely weakened. Of course local laws and guidelines varied with time/date would remain to be adhered to.
Individuals will have different approaches to the minimal risk that outdoor activity - specifically long distance cycling - incurs (to themselves and others). And they will choose to ride: at all, short distances, long (day) distances, alone, in pairs, in groups of 'x' - or not: individual decision.
Given Audax UK's objective of encouraging long distance riding, it does not need to apply additional, cautious restrictions on such activity.

I understand the AUK Board's decision to take a whole UK approach, given that Scotland and Wales are taking their time in lockdown easing [with justification I'm sure], but a tad frustrating for us in England. However, I can wait until 1st August for perms to start and will take the opportunity of overnight stays for a little touring in July. If there are local Covid-19 outbreaks later in the year then they'll maybe have to suspend Audax events on a case-by-case basis?

Tentative plans for some multi-day DIY 200s going a Long Way, too ... My scuppered 2020 plans were for Andy C's LEJOG, my own ACME Grand [as a route check/helpers' ride] and possibly the East-West, Lowestoft-Ardnamurchan perm too. There's a whole world of choice there!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: 3peaker on 23 June, 2020, 09:17:35 pm
My plans for a double E-E have been scuppered by the 1 Aug announcement. So, it will be a 4 Corners tour, entering Scotland when the border opens for tourists, with a couple DIY 200s in the South just to remind me what event pressure is all about.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on 23 June, 2020, 11:28:27 pm
If the 5 days refers to the Audax standard for LeJoG you need 4 nights for the journey and somewhere at the end. Probably Sea View Hotel. Then decide if you want to cycle back to Inverness or catch the train.

When I rode LeJoG in 4 days (96h) the hotel at JoG was most unwelcoming (with good reason I'm sure) so I rode straight back to Wick Polis Station where they made me a Full Scottish Breakfast  :thumbsup:
Those were the days.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 24 June, 2020, 05:35:49 am
Hotels seem fine, even the Scottish ones are taking bookings. They are all offering free date change even on the £29 a night rate so if things need to get postponed I can.

Edit: though I now realise registering 7x200 in 5 days won’t work as the sleeping comes in chunks.


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If the 5 days refers to the Audax standard for LeJoG you need 4 nights for the journey and somewhere at the end. Probably Sea View Hotel. Then decide if you want to cycle back to Inverness or catch the train.
I have booked 4 nights en route. My accommodation at the end is back in Wick. As I am going when I would have been doing Andy’s one it is too early for registering any of it.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: marcusjb on 29 June, 2020, 07:23:40 am
RUSA resumption postponed. :(

https://rusa.org/node/558 (https://rusa.org/node/558)

Whilst the US is on a very different trajectory, AUK’s decision to not rush things may hopefully avoid this situation here and shorter DIYs and perms can resume as planned.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on 29 June, 2020, 09:38:30 am
Thing is, Marcus, RUSA were planning to allow calendar events up to 200 to go ahead, if the organiser chose, from 1 July. Noone here has suggested that that would be a prudent way ahead in the circumstances prevailing in UK.
Audax UK have decided that solo/very small group permanents can be sanctioned. The additional risk of such rides, compared to unsanctioned individual or group (<7) rides is nil. And the risk during such outdoor exercise (of increased infection) already very small, is vanishingly small compared to risks incurred during the many other activities millions of entirely sensible cautious UK citizens are engaged in.
I believe that what the long distance cycling community want to see is a vision (Audax UK's vision) for how calendar events can be resumed (if organisers want to) and a tentative, prudent date that they hope that circumstances (in various spectra) will allow that resumption.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on 29 June, 2020, 01:01:48 pm
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-53217095 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-53217095)

For the fragility of the current situation and how much on a knife edge we are.

So for an organised ride we will organise for people to travel  across the country (and increase their contacts) and sign on in a hall (and increase the contacts) then control in various locations (if not changed these will be local shops as cafes not open, and increase their contacts), then return to the hall and have more contact.

I am not happy about the situation, but we are in no position to sanction oreganised events.

BB
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 29 June, 2020, 01:20:28 pm
Well this buggers up one of my DIY ideas
https://twitter.com/FerrytoSkye/status/1277563163504979970

Note the response from the local tourist castle...
Their facebook post responses has further subtext to their decision.

But then it sounds like my trip to the Ratagan YH won't be taking place anyway.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 29 June, 2020, 02:41:12 pm
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-53217095 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-53217095)

For the fragility of the current situation and how much on a knife edge we are.

So for an organised ride we will organise for people to travel  across the country (and increase their contacts) and sign on in a hall (and increase the contacts) then control in various locations (if not changed these will be local shops as cafes not open, and increase their contacts), then return to the hall and have more contact.

I am not happy about the situation, but we are in no position to sanction oreganised events.

BB
I appreciate you keep saying something similar and I keep repeating my response, if the issue is the sign on or finishing in a village hall afterwards, which is currently illegal, then organise the event without this. If it is impossible to have online or outdoor sign in then cancel that event, not all events. This is the approach in NL. This is all irrelevant as auk have decided no calendar events for the time being.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on 29 June, 2020, 06:36:32 pm
Well this buggers up one of my DIY ideas
https://twitter.com/FerrytoSkye/status/1277563163504979970

Note the response from the local tourist castle...
Their facebook post responses has further subtext to their decision.

But then it sounds like my trip to the Ratagan YH won't be taking place anyway.
Kyle Bridge not too far away  :thumbsup:The difference is just the difference between the Shiel Bridge split?

BB
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 29 June, 2020, 08:43:33 pm
https://www.facebook.com/cheddar/videos/230702384268416/


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 29 June, 2020, 10:54:53 pm
Well this buggers up one of my DIY ideas
https://twitter.com/FerrytoSkye/status/1277563163504979970

Note the response from the local tourist castle...
Their facebook post responses has further subtext to their decision.

But then it sounds like my trip to the Ratagan YH won't be taking place anyway.
Kyle Bridge not too far away  :thumbsup:The difference is just the difference between the Shiel Bridge split?

BB

Considerably less climbing and considerably more motor vehicles on the A87 route.

Also SKAT have reversed their position and now want tourists kept out at all costs.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on 30 June, 2020, 06:07:30 am
Also SKAT have reversed their position and now want tourists kept out at all costs.

I assume you mean Skye not SKAT? Do you have a source for the "tourists kept out" position?

Hostels look like they are booking only private rooms and no shared accommodation.

 :'(

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 30 June, 2020, 11:33:48 am
Also SKAT have reversed their position and now want tourists kept out at all costs.

I assume you mean Skye not SKAT? Do you have a source for the "tourists kept out" position?

Hostels look like they are booking only private rooms and no shared accommodation.

 :'(

SKAT
Skye and Kyle Against Tolls.

1/3rd of businesses polled in the western isles say they won't be reopening this year becasue they don't want to be responsible for bringing death to the islands; seems could be similar in Skye and Lochaber.

Ratagan probably won't be going ahead for the the club anyway, without self-catering and car sharing it's just not possible.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: slugbait on 30 June, 2020, 05:51:10 pm
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-53217095 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-53217095)

For the fragility of the current situation and how much on a knife edge we are.

So for an organised ride we will organise for people to travel  across the country (and increase their contacts) and sign on in a hall (and increase the contacts) then control in various locations (if not changed these will be local shops as cafes not open, and increase their contacts), then return to the hall and have more contact.

I am not happy about the situation, but we are in no position to sanction oreganised events.

BB

In the Netherlands, audax will resume in July. We have altered the rules of conduct to make sure that we don't huddle together at start and finish (outside, collect card and go; plus no socializing at the finish). The controls are up to the rider. It could be a photo control or a receipt at a petrol station. We will be very flexible as long as the riders disperse as much as possible at controls. As an organizer, I'm fine with this. I don't think cycling in small groups or travel to the start currently is a risky activity.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on 18 July, 2020, 04:00:03 pm
In grappling with the challenge of resuming cycling randonneuring UK-wide, how about these lines of WS Gilbert (as in Gilbert and Sullivan) which apparently Harold McMillan had hanging in 10 Downing Street:

"In a contemplative fashion,
And a tranquil frame of mind,
Free from every kind of passion,
Some solution let us find.
Let us grasp the situation,
Solve the complicated plot —
Quiet, calm deliberation
Disentangles every knot.
"
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 28 July, 2020, 02:59:01 pm
Finding a solution is between the cycling MGBs and the government's.

AUK is not an NGB so stuck with what British cycling agree with the 7 government's of their patch. (Jersey, Guernsey and Manx are the other 3)

Audax isn't it seems even vaguely on British cycling's radar and ultimately they're the NGB the government's will decide on specific divergences with.
If theres no specific divergence then each country's rules have to be met in a manner that keeps the insurance provider happy.

The insurance companies are only too happy to invalidate policies if there's a breech of guidelines and/or law.

So we're stuck with no more than the permitted group size doing any one event at any one time.
Other forms of cycling and other sports find it possible to work with those limitations but it's far from ideal for long distance cycling, highlights Auks need to be recognised for lobbying with the govs (I. E.  Be the NGB)

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 30 July, 2020, 07:33:04 pm
...

So we're stuck with no more than the permitted group size doing any one event at any one time.
Other forms of cycling and other sports find it possible to work with those limitations but it's far from ideal for long distance cycling, highlights Auks need to be recognised for lobbying with the govs (I. E.  Be the NGB)

I don't think I understand your reasoning here (but we could well be at cross-porpoises);

CTT are running 90-rider events. Audax perms don't require riders to exceed the 6-person limit.
So why can't (for example) 7 riders do the same perm on the same day in Englandshire?

[I'm not deliberately ignoring Scotland/Wales/etc - I just don't know the regs very well, so don't presume to leap to conclusions!]
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 30 July, 2020, 09:21:48 pm
CTT are running 90-rider events. Audax perms don't require riders to exceed the 6-person limit.
So why can't (for example) 7 riders do the same perm on the same day in Englandshire?

Because CTT are capable of knowing where 7 riders are at a time, AUK aren't.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on 30 July, 2020, 09:51:30 pm
CTT are running 90-rider events. Audax perms don't require riders to exceed the 6-person limit.
So why can't (for example) 7 riders do the same perm on the same day in Englandshire?

Because if you limit them to six people you don't have to think about whether they'll end up riding together or not.

Where CTT have already done that thinking and drafted rules for how people will stay apart. AUK are only just starting to maybe think about thinking about it. That's the complaint you should be making.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 30 July, 2020, 09:58:47 pm
AUK don’t need to make an additional rule. It is illegal and that is enough. AUK can already refuse to validate brevets that are ridden illegally.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 31 July, 2020, 12:34:25 am



AUK don’t need to make an additional rule. It is illegal and that is enough. AUK can already refuse to validate brevets that are ridden illegally.

The problem there is disproving it when the insurance come calling say:

10 riders arrive at a cafe together in North Berwick, 5 provide a receipt from the Café till after placing their order, the other 5 got to the cash machine round the corner after eating.
5 miles down the road 2 riders clatter in a heap on the road and the police and insurance company gets involved
In that scenario the insurance was invalid and they broke the law, no pay out and potential immediate cancellation of AUKs insurance with all that entails.
If they hadn't crashed AUK would have been none the wiser.

10 riders arrive in North Berwick, 5 in 1 group, 5 in the other, the first 5 go to a café, the other 5 got to the cash machine round the corner.
5 miles down the road group B overtakes group A, two riders get tangled up and the police and insurance company get involved.
1) Prove to the police this isn't an oversized group based around a single event (after all, they're all carrying the same brevet card)
2) Prove to the insurance company they wern't riding in an oversized group based around a single event and therefore that the policy was valid and shouldn't be summarily terminated.
The only thing protecting AUK from that happening is limiting daily entries to the maximum group size



It's also easy to say all the riders would submit their GPS trace to the police and insurance company to prove it was situation 2 not situation 1; aye a mate did that after being shoved off his bike by a reprobate on a scrambler.
The polis weren't interested, so unless you're going to contest the fine to the Sheriff and take the insurance company to court over the annulments, both of which will cost you more than the fine itself it's really not worth the effort.


CTT events can confirm which entrants were on course in their entered capacity because there's a time keeper, at the start/finish line taking notes and can kick them out the event for any transgression of the rules, because the whole event is observable.

Every sport is having to work out how to adapt to fit the current restrictions and insurance climate; some are easier to adapt than others.
And the more "free" the sport is in what entrants do, the harder it will be to adapt because the organizer has less control of the entrants actions.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 31 July, 2020, 06:22:23 am
So AUK will be introducing pre-brevet inspections to check that the riders’ machines comply with the legal requirements for riding on the public highway? No, because that issue is the rider’s individual responsibility, along with the insurance implications of breaking the law.

When you say two riders fall, are you referring to two riders in the same group or two riders from different groups? You have not made that clear in your example.

Groups would have staggered starts. Interactions between groups on the road would accordingly be limited, both because excessively large groups would be illegal and because, if seen by other brevet riders, they would be DQed.

AUK already uses the testimony of fellow riders e.g. to clarify that riders in fact were at controls when other evidence is missing. In the current circumstances, if riders report that an excessively large group was riding together, that group would be DQed.

How is that different to a time trial? If you are saying the route marshals are additional eyes checking for infringements during the TT, you are simply requiring a manned control or perhaps secret control for calendar brevets.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 31 July, 2020, 11:23:12 am
The TT contains controlled access to the course from the start line, so they know who is on course and pretty much where at the time.

Some sports including cycle sports do require active scruitineering for various reasons.
AUK offload that responsibility to the rider, which is reasonable for a relatively simple machine and limited scope for rule infringements.
Similarly some versions of car "sport" can operate without scruitineering, but that would require me to compare Audax to "Touring Assemblies" and "treasure hunts" though it's not a bad comparison in terms of what people do on the road.

The normal system of trusting people falls over when the laws and insurance rules no longer support it.

The example given is anything that would involve both the police and insurance company discovering potential breeches of group sizing.
As things stand the insurance companies are likely to come down heavier on organizers and people than the police.

Dad was told if there was any breech of coronavirus laws/regs on the event he ran the other week then there would be no insurance, if the police had turned up on a matter of reports of an oversized gathering they'd have dispersed it rather than fined anyone assuming there was no further agro.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 31 July, 2020, 11:59:59 am
Staggered starts for a brevet is much the same as a TT start.

The rest of your comment needs some more clarification. The police are more likely to disperse excessively large groups of cyclists than charge them, unless there are contributing factors? Insurance is likely to try to find reasons not to provide coverage? Well yes but cycling clubs are already sending out multiple socially distanced groups in a single day without issues.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 31 July, 2020, 12:32:24 pm
Staggered starts for a brevet is much the same as a TT start.

The rest of your comment needs some more clarification. The police are more likely to disperse excessively large groups of cyclists than charge them, unless there are contributing factors? Insurance is likely to try to find reasons not to provide coverage? Well yes but cycling clubs are already sending out multiple socially distanced groups in a single day without issues.

In theory and organized group activity should have a nominated "Coronavirus Risk person" who's head it lands on if breeches occur.
Are they riding the same route and going to the same café? They shouldn't be! And the groups around me seem to be following that.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 31 July, 2020, 01:03:02 pm
Apparently AUKs riding the same loop in different directions are counted collectively, rather than considered different routes. Any idea why?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 31 July, 2020, 01:10:14 pm
Apparently AUKs riding the same loop in different directions are counted collectively, rather than considered different routes. Any idea why?

Potential to congregate at the cross overs?

I'm not in the decision making process for Auk, I only know what I know from someone who has been involved in similar for car sport and from reading other sports restart processes.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on 31 July, 2020, 03:35:45 pm
Apparently AUKs riding the same loop in different directions are counted collectively, rather than considered different routes. Any idea why?

Because semantically it's one event, with one identity.  Nothing in AUK's entry or results records can distinguish things like direction of travel, start time, intermediate times, what type of machine ridden.  The organiser may have this information (for a while) but AUK just has an event ID, a rider ID and for Permanents, a date.

The whole idea of 'ride round either way' and 'start anywhere you want' has arisen over time from needy cyclist types who enter a Permanent and then seem to want to personalise it - "can I start from home because it's practically on the route" - "can I ride round anti-clock because I prefer turning left"  etc etc.  But there's nothing on the the Entry Form that allows for those choices - they really are just the entrant jerking the organiser around.

In the present situation a simple way for an organiser to facilitate more entries per day might be to register two Perm events (I don't think there's any registration cost for Perms?) with one of them simply being the reverse circuit of the other - call them 'Up The Junction (A)' and 'Up The Junction (B)' or whatever.  Though the entrant must choose in advance which version they want to do - because currently AUK's entries are not transferable.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 31 July, 2020, 03:37:34 pm
Fine, let’s do that then!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on 31 July, 2020, 03:48:31 pm
Just out of interest, so you have a pressing need to have more than six people do a perm on the same day in the next couple of months, or is this all hypothetical?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 31 July, 2020, 03:52:52 pm
I dislike stupidities that prevent my friends doing safe, legal things and I particularly dislike those stupidities being used to restrict future safe, legal things.

Personally, I particularly want AUK to validate longer DIY by GPS brevets in the near future since there is no logical reason to restrict them.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on 31 July, 2020, 04:34:48 pm
The 6 rider limit thing is IMHO daft but I can live with it.

As LWaB says open up longer distance perms ASAP.  There's no reason why we shouldn't be riding these now.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 31 July, 2020, 04:51:31 pm
The 6 rider limit thing is IMHO daft but I can live with it.

It amy be daft, but if it's the only way AUK can comply with the law then there's a common saying that fits the situation...
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 31 July, 2020, 05:18:27 pm
Sure, change the system to suit. Have parallel events for simultaneous start locations and opposing directions. Done, move on.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on 31 July, 2020, 05:21:35 pm
The 6 rider limit thing is IMHO daft but I can live with it.

It amy be daft, but if it's the only way AUK can comply with the law then there's a common saying that fits the situation...

It is categorically not the only way that AUK can comply with the law.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 31 July, 2020, 06:13:10 pm
The 6 rider limit thing is IMHO daft but I can live with it.

It amy be daft, but if it's the only way AUK can comply with the law then there's a common saying that fits the situation...
6 riders together at any one time =/= 6 riders on an event.
Just as no mord than 6 people socialising together =/= no more than 6 people using the same restaurant on the same day.

No matter how many times some people state the rules mean only 6 people on any perm event is a legal requirement, it simply isn't true.

The restriction is a means of proving the rules have been followed, when the assumption should be tha t rules have been followed unless proven otherwise. Require entants to confirm start and finish time and declare that they did not ride or congregate with anyone using a different start time.

This talk about potential congregation at crossover points is absurd, other people will be using shops and cafes at the same time all within the law.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 31 July, 2020, 06:18:45 pm
It's not that 6 people on the perm in a day is the legal problem, it's proving there were only 6 people in one place at any time.

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 31 July, 2020, 06:20:23 pm
CTT manage to do that with 120 riders in an event.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 31 July, 2020, 06:31:05 pm
They're not allowed 2-up
You're not allowed to be in the car park until a given time
You're not allowed to speak to anyone else in the car park
you have to go to the line and look at the time keeper who's hiding in a car or in the neighbouring field
You go when he says to go,
You malky yourself to pieces
There's only limited circumstances where a course marhsall will help you
When you get back to the finish you're to ride directly back to your car without stopping on the way
and once you've done all that you've to leave the site ASAP.

That's not the same as having 120 riders in one location at the same time with any risk of them mingling as would be normal.
They're running it in a manner that means the riders are never in close contact with anyone at all unless there's a major issue.

For the other sport I keep mentioning here's a preeminant hack's take on what the two clubs that have managed to put events on in Scotland had to do.
http://www.jaggybunnet.co.uk/2020/07/21-jul-autotesting-under-covid/

Again nothing like normal despite from the outside looking like it.
If you read it there's a carefully worded dig at football.

What he hasn't mentioned is that MSUK aren't allowing joint occupancy of a car and when cars are shared for entry cleaning measures must be taken place, what that means is where junior sport is involved (in which there must be a passenger with a road driving licence in the vehicle) it can't be done even though the vast majority of kids taking part in autotests are doing so with a parent in the other seat.

There's also this statement "Another new innovation was the requirement for a Covid19 Officer whose duties included the oversight of all pre-event and on-event preparations and ensuring that competitors and officials respected the social distancing rules and followed the guidance laid down by the event organisers."



AUK have gone for a fairly blunt approach at managing compliance with the law.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on 31 July, 2020, 06:31:43 pm
I really do try to not get involved with AUK politics but, as I’ve said before, other branches of cycle sport are working hard towards getting people back out and AUK are actively finding ways to prevent it.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Tomsk on 31 July, 2020, 07:24:08 pm
From the AUK entry form: I understand that during the event I am on a private excursion on the public highway and that I am responsible for my
own conduct
. I agree to abide by Audax UK Regulations for this ride.


It's a private excursion, just a bike ride and I hope we're all responsible riders. Auk regs are about validation of the distance ridden and not policing rider behaviour. Club regulations are different - my club has chucked a rider out for loutish riding and bad-mouthing other members.

I can live with a few limits for now: capping numbers (though 6 seems a bit mean), no calendar rides, small groups on the road (what's new?) and so on. We're mostly out there riding lots anyway, especially as overnight stops are permitted now.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: stefan on 31 July, 2020, 07:42:39 pm
I really do try to not get involved with AUK politics but, as I’ve said before, other branches of cycle sport are working hard towards getting people back out and AUK are actively finding ways to prevent it.

Rob, if you could see the huge amount of work that the board, and in particular Graeme Provan our General Secretary, is doing behind the scenes to ensure we can restart, you might take a different view.

Martin
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on 31 July, 2020, 07:49:28 pm
I really do try to not get involved with AUK politics but, as I’ve said before, other branches of cycle sport are working hard towards getting people back out and AUK are actively finding ways to prevent it.

Rob, if you could see the huge amount of work that the board, and in particular Graeme Provan our General Secretary, is doing behind the scenes to ensure we can restart, you might take a different view.

Martin

I was at a social with Graeme for a few hours just over a week ago.  We didn’t discuss anything about this subject, though.

ETA - Just because someone is working really hard does not mean I have to agree with their conclusions.  As an AUK member of nearly 28 years I have a right to challenge what is being presented.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 31 July, 2020, 07:50:37 pm
From the AUK entry form: I understand that during the event I am on a private excursion on the public highway and that I am responsible for my
own conduct
. I agree to abide by Audax UK Regulations for this ride.


It's a private excursion, just a bike ride and I hope we're all responsible riders. Auk regs are about validation of the distance ridden and not policing rider behaviour. Club regulations are different - my club has chucked a rider out for loutish riding and bad-mouthing other members.

I can live with a few limits for now: capping numbers (though 6 seems a bit mean), no calendar rides, small groups on the road (what's new?) and so on. We're mostly out there riding lots anyway, especially as overnight stops are permitted now.

The problem with this is the classic "you can't disclaim your way out of legal obligations"
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Rupert on 31 July, 2020, 08:23:11 pm
The laws about social distancing may well change a lot over the coming days/weeks following the surge in new cases in various parts of the country.  Add to this the hot weather of today where beaches around the country have been inundated and it appears obvious to me that more 'hot spots' will quickly become apparent.

I for one, am just grateful to be able to get out and ride my bike at the moment but i'm also aware that that could all change too.

I have all but written this year off and just hopeful that we get a vaccine by the end of the year and start again next year.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: stefan on 31 July, 2020, 10:59:25 pm
Guidance, behaviour codes and risk assessment documents for tomorrow's restart now on AUK website

https://audax.uk/news/resumption-of-auk-events-1-august-2020/
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: aidan.f on 01 August, 2020, 04:28:38 am
Some relevance to my imminent solo DIY ride. But It reads as written for events. Reads rather like many RAs. A statement written without any particular understanding
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 01 August, 2020, 08:00:47 am
...

Where CTT have already done that thinking and drafted rules for how people will stay apart. AUK are only just starting to maybe think about thinking about it. That's the complaint you should be making.
Haha!

You might find that this point was made quite some time ago - both on official channels and the less formal (like this one).
Will you back this complaint?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 01 August, 2020, 08:08:07 am
I really do try to not get involved with AUK politics but, as I’ve said before, other branches of cycle sport are working hard towards getting people back out and AUK are actively finding ways to prevent it.

Rob, if you could see the huge amount of work that the board, and in particular Graeme Provan our General Secretary, is doing behind the scenes to ensure we can restart, you might take a different view.

Martin

I was at a social with Graeme for a few hours just over a week ago.  We didn’t discuss anything about this subject, though.

ETA - Just because someone is working really hard does not mean I have to agree with their conclusions.  As an AUK member of nearly 28 years I have a right to challenge what is being presented.
Quite right. And we all have a right to challenge restrictions being put on us by persons who think they know best, without discussion. We elected these people to facilitate cycling long distances - not to make up rules to stop us doing so.

I doubt Graeme would be happy with me following him around the supermarket, office, bathroom and making demands about his social distancing and hygiene measures.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 01 August, 2020, 08:12:32 am

In that scenario the insurance was invalid and they broke the law, no pay out and potential immediate cancellation of AUKs insurance with all that entails.
If they hadn't crashed AUK would have been none the wiser.


As I've been saying for several months, this is no different to rides pre-pandemic, and the many bad/silly things that riders might do while AUK is not holding their hands.
Do you have an answer yet?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 01 August, 2020, 08:25:56 am
When you say you need to be able to prove that riders didn't congregate at any point round the route, what standard of proof do you need? 

AUK need to set up a scientific commission pronto to investigate the possibility of riders using quantum tunnelling to illicitly meet each other on the ride.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 01 August, 2020, 10:13:50 am
I feel the issue could be resolved by cyclists having number plates, paying road tax and staying on cycle paths.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 01 August, 2020, 10:53:45 am
I feel the issue could be resolved by cyclists having number plates, paying road tax and staying on cycle paths.
;D

There are very few problems that wouldn't be cured by road tax for cyclists.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Laid Back Rich on 01 August, 2020, 12:17:48 pm
I understood from Chris Crossland's 17th June update to AUK members that we can do DIY from today, but https://www.aukweb.net/forms/entryformdiy.php not yet available - anyone got info?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on 01 August, 2020, 12:22:41 pm
You need to log in via the new site:
https://audax.uk/choose-a-ride/do-it-yourself-diy-events/
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Laid Back Rich on 01 August, 2020, 01:28:28 pm
You need to log in via the new site:
https://audax.uk/choose-a-ride/do-it-yourself-diy-events/

aha, thanks very much!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 01 August, 2020, 04:41:56 pm

In that scenario the insurance was invalid and they broke the law, no pay out and potential immediate cancellation of AUKs insurance with all that entails.
If they hadn't crashed AUK would have been none the wiser.


As I've been saying for several months, this is no different to rides pre-pandemic, and the many bad/silly things that riders might do while AUK is not holding their hands.
Do you have an answer yet?

Because if complaints are made by the public about cyclists taking part in cycling events at this time, the government will contact British Cycling (as NGB) and ask "WTF is going on here"

Every time there's hints of an issue with the football restart up here, Jason Leech is quoted as saying "We've looked at what they're doing and I don't see a problem at this time"
That translates to, "What we've agreed with the SFA is being adhered to, if they were not doing so Professional football is off"

It would also kiss AUKs wish to be NGB for long distance cycling and therefore no longer hamstrung by British Cycling's narrow UCI restricted image of cycling goodbye if the cyclists they represent were to be taking the piss and pissing people off at a time of heightened sensitivities.

Also the legal situation is upside down, we're only allowed to do things that the Coronavirus Act allows, and thanks to the (limited) work British Cycling have done, right now it's allowing cycling in small groups. It's not actually allowing any events (because BC don't give a toss about Audax, and DIYs and Perms can be presented as group rides within the bounds of the rules agreed).

I Agree with the people that say there are other ways it could be done to ensure BC's agreements with the governments aren't breached while allowing greater participation.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Zed43 on 01 August, 2020, 06:40:08 pm
You need to log in via the new site:
https://audax.uk/choose-a-ride/do-it-yourself-diy-events/
Interestingly I can also select 300km for diy (but no longer distances).

Decided to play it safe and do a 200. Finished a few hours ago  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 01 August, 2020, 06:42:59 pm

In that scenario the insurance was invalid and they broke the law, no pay out and potential immediate cancellation of AUKs insurance with all that entails.
If they hadn't crashed AUK would have been none the wiser.


As I've been saying for several months, this is no different to rides pre-pandemic, and the many bad/silly things that riders might do while AUK is not holding their hands.
Do you have an answer yet?

Because if complaints are made by the public about cyclists taking part in cycling events at this time, the government will contact British Cycling (as NGB) and ask "WTF is going on here"

Every time there's hints of an issue with the football restart up here, Jason Leech is quoted as saying "We've looked at what they're doing and I don't see a problem at this time"
That translates to, "What we've agreed with the SFA is being adhered to, if they were not doing so Professional football is off"

It would also kiss AUKs wish to be NGB for long distance cycling and therefore no longer hamstrung by British Cycling's narrow UCI restricted image of cycling goodbye if the cyclists they represent were to be taking the piss and pissing people off at a time of heightened sensitivities.

Also the legal situation is upside down, we're only allowed to do things that the Coronavirus Act allows, and thanks to the (limited) work British Cycling have done, right now it's allowing cycling in small groups. It's not actually allowing any events (because BC don't give a toss about Audax, and DIYs and Perms can be presented as group rides within the bounds of the rules agreed).

I Agree with the people that say there are other ways it could be done to ensure BC's agreements with the governments aren't breached while allowing greater participation.

The first rule of catastrophising: if what you've written can be construed as catastrophising, it's very probably wrong and should automatically be ignored.

Here is some helpful advice about catastrophising. (https://www.healthline.com/health/anxiety/catastrophizing#treatment)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 01 August, 2020, 06:49:35 pm

In that scenario the insurance was invalid and they broke the law, no pay out and potential immediate cancellation of AUKs insurance with all that entails.
If they hadn't crashed AUK would have been none the wiser.


As I've been saying for several months, this is no different to rides pre-pandemic, and the many bad/silly things that riders might do while AUK is not holding their hands.
Do you have an answer yet?

Because if complaints are made by the public about cyclists taking part in cycling events at this time, the government will contact British Cycling (as NGB) and ask "WTF is going on here"

Every time there's hints of an issue with the football restart up here, Jason Leech is quoted as saying "We've looked at what they're doing and I don't see a problem at this time"
That translates to, "What we've agreed with the SFA is being adhered to, if they were not doing so Professional football is off"

It would also kiss AUKs wish to be NGB for long distance cycling and therefore no longer hamstrung by British Cycling's narrow UCI restricted image of cycling goodbye if the cyclists they represent were to be taking the piss and pissing people off at a time of heightened sensitivities.

Also the legal situation is upside down, we're only allowed to do things that the Coronavirus Act allows, and thanks to the (limited) work British Cycling have done, right now it's allowing cycling in small groups. It's not actually allowing any events (because BC don't give a toss about Audax, and DIYs and Perms can be presented as group rides within the bounds of the rules agreed).

I Agree with the people that say there are other ways it could be done to ensure BC's agreements with the governments aren't breached while allowing greater participation.
BC have been running beginners rides for up to a 100 setting of in groups of 6 since 4th July.  By their rules it was allowed from 18th June, they just were not ready. They have also said club runs are fine as long as you break up into 6s.  AUKs 6 people per 200km seems an unreasonable interpretation of the rules. There is absolutely nothing in BC or govt guidance about restricting the length of rides. If there is a complaint to govt that people are cycling then the govt response will be to take credit saying that the repair voucher scheme is working.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 01 August, 2020, 07:03:38 pm
Also the legal situation is upside down, we're only allowed to do things that the Coronavirus Act allows,
I don’t think this is the case anymore, certainly in England. The original coronavirus act said you must not leave your house apart from for a limited set of reasons. This was indeed unusual in law in that instead of forbidding specific things it banned everything and listed what you could do. The current act works in the normal way, listing the things that are prohibited- such as going to casinos and gathering in groups of more than 6.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 01 August, 2020, 09:19:11 pm
So no using casinos at controls on perms folks. It’d be a bit of a gamble and the stakes are high.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 02 August, 2020, 08:19:03 am
Mr  Eejit:
Do you think AUK (and organisers) never received complaints from the public before all this?

You're talking nonsense - worryingly, it seems to be in line with the AUK board approach. It's all just panic! panic! Stay at home under a table! Just in case!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Delph Cyclist on 02 August, 2020, 09:49:07 am
AUK are actively finding ways to prevent it.

What utter nonsense.  If anything AUK have been trying hard to get us back riding again while fulfilling the changing requirements from all the constituent governments that make up the "UK" bit of "Audax UK" - and as we see up north those requirements can change overnight.

Anyway, you can ride all you like, AUK are only saying that they wouldn't validate your attempts.

I rode my first Perm yesterday as part of the restart, but I take my responsibilities to myself, my family, my work colleagues, the wider community, and even to you, seriously.  I carried all my food and drink that I would otherwise purchase out on the route, I included hand gel and face mask in my saddle bag, and I chose not to stop at any café, petrol station or shop - where I would have had to queue and lose time anyway.  I had a wonderful ride!  I thank AUK for encouraging me to resume my activities.

I have to tell you that if AUK were to permit Calendar Events from tomorrow, I would not take them up on it.  I'm not yet ready to implement the measures needed to allow mass participation events.  I've got a 600 on the Calendar for mid August and I just shudder to think what it would take to put on such an undertaking at the moment.

You may well be an Event Organiser yourself and be prepared to put on something that did not encourage the spread of what some people might still think of as a trivial disease (surely there can't be such people still around?) but I am not.  AUK are not stopping me, my common sense is.  Perhaps common sense is not so common after all.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Terry2wheelz on 02 August, 2020, 10:00:44 am
 :thumbsup:
100% agree with D.C's well made point.

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 02 August, 2020, 10:01:24 am
You can (and ideally should) use those risk minimisation measures during a 600km DIY by GPS, except that AUK will not validate it. Why not?
Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 02 August, 2020, 11:26:20 am
AUK are actively finding ways to prevent it.


Anyway, you can ride all you like, AUK are only saying that they wouldn't validate your attempts.


Because validation of the ride would contribute to the spread of the virus ?

Since the announcement many weeks ago now that exercise could be unlimited in duration I have been riding long distances. I have been encouraging other cyclists to cycle longer distances. I am however no longer encouraging them to join AUK as there seems little point.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Nick Firth on 02 August, 2020, 12:58:30 pm
Over the years I've done 600k DIY's where I've done x2 300k loops with a few hours in my own bed at home, on the ride I've picked up my ATM receipts & had no contact with anyone, I'd have thought this would be allowed as it's no danger to me or anybody else. Since the Lockdown I've been doing Race at your pace rides & received some lovely medals for my efforts, I'm talking short rides accumulating to 200 miles per month & it's given me an incentive to get out & keep healthy, I can recommend it to anyone who feels frustrated being stuck behind the pace car waiting for the flag to drop.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on 02 August, 2020, 06:07:45 pm
I have done 2 300k rides and a 400k one in the last couple of weeks.  On today’s perm 200k I visited 2 petrol stations and a coffee shop, wearing a mask and observing the shops rules.

The pubs are open, the beaches are full and people are going on holiday.  Am I being told that my bike ride is selfish and puts others at risk ?  If so, it’s twaddle.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on 02 August, 2020, 06:09:11 pm
AUK are actively finding ways to prevent it.


Anyway, you can ride all you like, AUK are only saying that they wouldn't validate your attempts.


Because validation of the ride would contribute to the spread of the virus ?

Since the announcement many weeks ago now that exercise could be unlimited in duration I have been riding long distances. I have been encouraging other cyclists to cycle longer distances. I am however no longer encouraging them to join AUK as there seems little point.

^^^^^^

This
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 04 August, 2020, 08:32:06 pm
AUK are actively finding ways to prevent it.

What utter nonsense.  If anything AUK have been trying hard to get us back riding again while fulfilling the changing requirements from all the constituent governments that make up the "UK" bit of "Audax UK" - and as we see up north those requirements can change overnight.

Anyway, you can ride all you like, AUK are only saying that they wouldn't validate your attempts.
I'd say that's pretty close to discouraging riding, even if they aren't exactly preventing it! Seems a long way from the mission statement of "promoting long distance cycling". Seems like "you can ride a long way, but not as part of an AUK event."

Mike, "common sense" says ride according to the laws and the guidelines. I don't know why you think that members wanting to ride validated events have less "common sense" than you; do you have inside knowledge of epidemic management? I rode 199km quite near to you in late July - I was entirely within the law, and used common sense to adhere to COVID guidelines. What makes you think I did not?

Is it "common sense" to ride no more than 220km under AUK conditions? Care to explain why (to us dunces)?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Frank9755 on 05 August, 2020, 10:20:15 am
This is a bit dire!

I'm going to do a long ride in Scotland on my own in a couple of weeks, to salvage something from my season.  I thought I might set it up as a DIY, but I've read the last few pages, and clearly not.  Audax UK appears to have lost the plot!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: bairn again on 05 August, 2020, 03:33:29 pm
I plan to do a DIY200 tomorrow, its not really going to count for much as Im not a RRTY enthusiast and Ive done other 200s this season already.  Id jump at the chance to do longer events and ideally complete a SR this season (all on a solo DIY basis which was my approach in most other non PBP years) and Im hoping that AUK will allow validation of these very soon.  In the absence of any greater detail my assumption is that they are wanting to check that “Super Saturday” passed off without incident before giving the green light to longer permanents. 


Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Tomsk on 05 August, 2020, 06:29:01 pm
If the limit is 200km for the rest of the year, then I think I'd like to ride the route of one of my longer events in September, but as a series of 200km brevets with a civilised finish time and a night in a hotel. I wonder how this sits with AUK. If the answer is no then I'll probably ride anyway, at much the same daily distance, but as a tour ...
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: tonyh on 05 August, 2020, 07:01:38 pm
There doesn't seem to be a limit on the number of 200 Perms you can ride, or on the length of each one. Sounds as if they might be DIYs, although based on your Perms.

(I'm ashamed to be uncertain about the rules around nights away.)

Not a very useful post... but a chance to express admiration of ACME (amongst other excellent Audax Regions of course!)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 05 August, 2020, 07:21:03 pm
Whether or not it is validated there is definitely something to attempting rides to an audax standard. Without the self imposed audax rules on my recent lejog i would not have felt the same level of satisfaction finishing and may indeed have quit on day 2 after a series of unfortunate mechanicals.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 05 August, 2020, 07:21:19 pm
There’s no problem with nights away unless in a local lockdown area.  Plenty of people having staycations right now throughout the UK.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: tonyh on 05 August, 2020, 08:13:23 pm
Thanks Phil!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Tomsk on 06 August, 2020, 07:33:05 am
There doesn't seem to be a limit on the number of 200 Perms you can ride, or on the length of each one. Sounds as if they might be DIYs, although based on your Perms.

(I'm ashamed to be uncertain about the rules around nights away.)

Not a very useful post... but a chance to express admiration of ACME (amongst other excellent Audax Regions of course!)

 :thumbsup: Thanks for the approval Tony. There's a lot of disapproval about at the moment unfortunately.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bikeabilityman on 06 August, 2020, 08:20:36 am
My plan for this Audax year had been to do one SR, keep my RRtY gong, and get back into TTs and racing (as if I’m fast!!). Now I’ll probably just do some DIY 200s with a food stop at home, although I have been to some local cafes that have very good Covid measures in place. I’d be happy to see the longer distances back on the menu though.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Charco on 06 August, 2020, 07:30:43 pm
Interesting to see triathlon has restarted. Hopefully this bodes well for Audax events

https://www.113events.com/cotswold-classic-2020-post-race-mail/

https://www.charleswhittonphotography.com/group28112.html


Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rabbit on 06 August, 2020, 07:46:03 pm
Crickey. I'm a bit injured at the moment so just planning next years training whilst I have the time to think about it and figured a few audaxes might be fun. I'm most surprised to see the level of restrictions still in place.  :o
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Delph Cyclist on 07 August, 2020, 09:46:05 pm
My own cautious approach is perhaps influenced by living in Greater Manchester, where Covid rates are apparently quite high and I am not allowed to visit my family, not even in the garden.  I'm very apprehensive of going out of the house at all, I worry about going to the local Co-op for the weekly shop, and there's no way I'd go to a pub or cafe.  It's beginning to feel a bit agoraphobic.  I have no argument with AUKs current policy.

That said, I'm out for a 100km Perm over the weekend.  I intend to have nothing to do with anyone at all.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 07 August, 2020, 10:28:11 pm
My own cautious approach is perhaps influenced by living in Greater Manchester, where Covid rates are apparently quite high and I am not allowed to visit my family, not even in the garden.  I'm very apprehensive of going out of the house at all, I worry about going to the local Co-op for the weekly shop, and there's no way I'd go to a pub or cafe.  It's beginning to feel a bit agoraphobic.  I have no argument with AUKs current policy.

That said, I'm out for a 100km Perm over the weekend.  I intend to have nothing to do with anyone at all.

You're in Oldham aren't you?  The current infection rate there  is 66.6 per 100,000 people (https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/greater-manchesters-very-latest-coronavirus-18736404).    If the mortality/infection ratio is still 1%, that's 0.66 deaths per 100k people per week.

About 5 people die per day on British roads  That's 3 deaths per 100,000 people per year, or 0.06 per week.  Then again, you'll be significantly more at risk than most people, due to the number of miles you do on a bicycle, which is one of the riskier forms of transport out there.  The risks are really in the same ballpark, and if you're worried about C19, you should be equally worried about audax full stop.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Jaded on 07 August, 2020, 10:46:14 pm
My own cautious approach is perhaps influenced by living in Greater Manchester, where Covid rates are apparently quite high and I am not allowed to visit my family, not even in the garden.  I'm very apprehensive of going out of the house at all, I worry about going to the local Co-op for the weekly shop, and there's no way I'd go to a pub or cafe.  It's beginning to feel a bit agoraphobic.  I have no argument with AUKs current policy.

That said, I'm out for a 100km Perm over the weekend.  I intend to have nothing to do with anyone at all.

You're in Oldham aren't you?  The current infection rate there  is 66.6 per 100,000 people (https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/greater-manchesters-very-latest-coronavirus-18736404).    If the mortality/infection ratio is still 1%, that's 0.66 deaths per 100k people per week.

About 5 people die per day on British roads  That's 3 deaths per 100,000 people per year, or 0.06 per week.  Then again, you'll be significantly more at risk than most people, due to the number of miles you do on a bicycle, which is one of the riskier forms of transport out there.  The risks are really in the same ballpark, and if you're worried about C19, you should be equally worried about audax full stop.

Riding a bicycle doesn't make three other people you meet ride a bicycle.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rabbit on 07 August, 2020, 10:47:35 pm
It's interesting how differently people have responded to Covid.

Those who have worked through solidly, and been on the road (for work) during the lockdown, or on the frontline in healthcare that I know are the most laidback about the situation.

Those who have been furloughed and isolated seem to be those who are the most worried regarding the relaxation of lockdown.

Although most people I know are definitely moving toward being less cautious.

Just an observation really.

I had to work through the whole thing, and have been in numerous workplaces since March. I really dont worry about the consequences of riding a bike and supporting one of our desperate cafes en route. However, equally, I respect those who are cautious and I always try to keep a high level of personal hand hygiene, keep my distance and wear a mask where required.

It makes no odds to me whether I ever do an audax again, although I would like to at some point. I doubt I would be so relaxed about it if I was still a bit of an audax addict.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 07 August, 2020, 11:03:54 pm
My own cautious approach is perhaps influenced by living in Greater Manchester, where Covid rates are apparently quite high and I am not allowed to visit my family, not even in the garden.  I'm very apprehensive of going out of the house at all, I worry about going to the local Co-op for the weekly shop, and there's no way I'd go to a pub or cafe.  It's beginning to feel a bit agoraphobic.  I have no argument with AUKs current policy.

That said, I'm out for a 100km Perm over the weekend.  I intend to have nothing to do with anyone at all.

You're in Oldham aren't you?  The current infection rate there  is 66.6 per 100,000 people (https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/greater-manchesters-very-latest-coronavirus-18736404).    If the mortality/infection ratio is still 1%, that's 0.66 deaths per 100k people per week.

About 5 people die per day on British roads  That's 3 deaths per 100,000 people per year, or 0.06 per week.  Then again, you'll be significantly more at risk than most people, due to the number of miles you do on a bicycle, which is one of the riskier forms of transport out there.  The risks are really in the same ballpark, and if you're worried about C19, you should be equally worried about audax full stop.

Riding a bicycle doesn't make three other people you meet ride a bicycle.

If you drive to an event though, you risk running someone over.  All those parcels you ordered on Amazon and Wiggle while in lockdown?  Any of the delivery trucks involved in their manufacture and supply risk running someone down too - and the victim wouldn't have died if you hadn't ordered that new stem.

At what point do you cease to be responsible for your own tiny contribution to the background level of risk? 
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Jaded on 07 August, 2020, 11:15:26 pm
My own cautious approach is perhaps influenced by living in Greater Manchester, where Covid rates are apparently quite high and I am not allowed to visit my family, not even in the garden.  I'm very apprehensive of going out of the house at all, I worry about going to the local Co-op for the weekly shop, and there's no way I'd go to a pub or cafe.  It's beginning to feel a bit agoraphobic.  I have no argument with AUKs current policy.

That said, I'm out for a 100km Perm over the weekend.  I intend to have nothing to do with anyone at all.

You're in Oldham aren't you?  The current infection rate there  is 66.6 per 100,000 people (https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/greater-manchesters-very-latest-coronavirus-18736404).    If the mortality/infection ratio is still 1%, that's 0.66 deaths per 100k people per week.

About 5 people die per day on British roads  That's 3 deaths per 100,000 people per year, or 0.06 per week.  Then again, you'll be significantly more at risk than most people, due to the number of miles you do on a bicycle, which is one of the riskier forms of transport out there.  The risks are really in the same ballpark, and if you're worried about C19, you should be equally worried about audax full stop.

Riding a bicycle doesn't make three other people you meet ride a bicycle.

If you drive to an event though, you risk running someone over.  All those parcels you ordered on Amazon and Wiggle while in lockdown?  Any of the delivery trucks involved in their manufacture and supply risk running someone down too - and the victim wouldn't have died if you hadn't ordered that new stem.

At what point do you cease to be responsible for your own tiny contribution to the background level of risk?

 ??? Every parcel I order from Amazon means three other people order parcels  ???
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 08 August, 2020, 06:46:10 am
Months ago I read a report on the contact tracing done in Wuhan. Of the 7487 successful attributions of infection 7486 were indoors and 1 outdoors. None involved a bicycle.

Since then I have minimised time indoors as much as possible, particularly indoors with lots of people.

Many cafes have put considerable thought into working in a covid safe way - I like the way Emberton country park cafe have rearranged so the cake counter at the front of the shop up against the window so you choose from outside.

Just saying the old normal is no longer ok is not good enough, we have to adapt to a new normal that has a reasonable balanced risk.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on 08 August, 2020, 08:29:52 am
My own cautious approach is perhaps influenced by living in Greater Manchester, where Covid rates are apparently quite high and I am not allowed to visit my family, not even in the garden.  I'm very apprehensive of going out of the house at all, I worry about going to the local Co-op for the weekly shop, and there's no way I'd go to a pub or cafe.  It's beginning to feel a bit agoraphobic.  I have no argument with AUKs current policy.

That said, I'm out for a 100km Perm over the weekend.  I intend to have nothing to do with anyone at all.

You're in Oldham aren't you?  The current infection rate there  is 66.6 per 100,000 people (https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/greater-manchesters-very-latest-coronavirus-18736404).    If the mortality/infection ratio is still 1%, that's 0.66 deaths per 100k people per week.

About 5 people die per day on British roads  That's 3 deaths per 100,000 people per year, or 0.06 per week.  Then again, you'll be significantly more at risk than most people, due to the number of miles you do on a bicycle, which is one of the riskier forms of transport out there.  The risks are really in the same ballpark, and if you're worried about C19, you should be equally worried about audax full stop.
Kalka you are confusing two different things, this has been common in a lot of discussions. The first is random change probability and this you have correctly attributed to the incidence of road accidents. The second causal chance that is increased with contact and the difference is that you 'cause' an increase in infections by having an incident, in random chance you do not increase the chance of other people having an accident because you have had one. It is this factor that made the spread exponential and this is highly dangerous and what happened at the start of the outbreak. So in short you are correct in your analysis of the chance of getting C-19 today if you went out, but the impact would go on for weeks and possibly cause many other cases.

By the way they think the outbreak in NY was caused by a single super sreader who they think infected as many as 200 people in a single day. Then bang thousands have and spread the virus. Now I am not saying that cycling alone on roads is a risk, but we all stop and have traveled from out locality  and the risk is not just what happens on the day.....

BB
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 08 August, 2020, 08:53:39 am
There is no issue travelling non locally to an area of similar infection level. There seems to be a perception that it is like spreading flu to the aztecs (or was it mayans). I don’t believe there is anywhere on mainland Britain that has avoided covid and the infection rate is pretty constant bar from a few areas where it is higher.

You should avoid travelling to those areas because you are more likely to catch covid because more people have it. You should avoid travelling from those areas as you are more likely to have it and spread it.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 08 August, 2020, 11:40:41 am
My own cautious approach is perhaps influenced by living in Greater Manchester, where Covid rates are apparently quite high and I am not allowed to visit my family, not even in the garden.  I'm very apprehensive of going out of the house at all, I worry about going to the local Co-op for the weekly shop, and there's no way I'd go to a pub or cafe.  It's beginning to feel a bit agoraphobic.  I have no argument with AUKs current policy.

That said, I'm out for a 100km Perm over the weekend.  I intend to have nothing to do with anyone at all.

You're in Oldham aren't you?  The current infection rate there  is 66.6 per 100,000 people (https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/greater-manchesters-very-latest-coronavirus-18736404).    If the mortality/infection ratio is still 1%, that's 0.66 deaths per 100k people per week.

About 5 people die per day on British roads  That's 3 deaths per 100,000 people per year, or 0.06 per week.  Then again, you'll be significantly more at risk than most people, due to the number of miles you do on a bicycle, which is one of the riskier forms of transport out there.  The risks are really in the same ballpark, and if you're worried about C19, you should be equally worried about audax full stop.
Kalka you are confusing two different things, this has been common in a lot of discussions. The first is random change probability and this you have correctly attributed to the incidence of road accidents. The second causal chance that is increased with contact and the difference is that you 'cause' an increase in infections by having an incident, in random chance you do not increase the chance of other people having an accident because you have had one. It is this factor that made the spread exponential and this is highly dangerous and what happened at the start of the outbreak. So in short you are correct in your analysis of the chance of getting C-19 today if you went out, but the impact would go on for weeks and possibly cause many other cases.

By the way they think the outbreak in NY was caused by a single super sreader who they think infected as many as 200 people in a single day. Then bang thousands have and spread the virus. Now I am not saying that cycling alone on roads is a risk, but we all stop and have traveled from out locality  and the risk is not just what happens on the day.....

BB

I'm not confusing anything.  The issue you need to address, but are failing to address, is how much you are responsible for damage caused by your actions. 

There's a small chance you might die of a disease you catch because of me living my life, when I didn't know I had it.  Me merely existing puts you at risk.  Equally, your mere existence puts me at risk.  I'm not going to lose any sleep over this: I have always, throughout my entire life, stood a chance of being negatively affected due to your non-negligent actions but I'm not going to blame you for that.  Equally, I expect the same from you.

The logic of "If I do X, bad thing Y might happen to person Z" only goes so far.  At some point, person Z has to suck it up as the cost of living - otherwise I'd just have to kill myself now so I never risk breathing bad air in your face.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rabbit on 08 August, 2020, 11:56:00 am
Quote
The logic of "If I do X, bad thing Y might happen to person Z" only goes so far.  At some point, person Z has to suck it up as the cost of living - otherwise I'd just have to kill myself now so I never risk breathing bad air in your face.

Yup. This  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on 08 August, 2020, 12:40:49 pm
Bring it back to basics and managing the additional risk of spreading or being infected by COVID-19 virus while engaged in an Audax UK sanctioned event, and let's keep this to Perms/DIYs at this stage - acknowledging nevertheless that calendar events are at the heart of worldwide cycle randonneuring.
General
Do not travel/ride/leave home if you think you might have COVID-19 (variety of rationales for such a judgement, well documented)
Outdoors
Other cyclists:
*  in group: no groups of more than the government allowed group number (6 in England); maintain SD when stationary or moving; no bottle/food/eqpt sharing; do not join group which already has 6 in
*  alone: pass (fleeting closeness moment)
Pedestrians and vehicles: Pass
Taps: Wipe before and after use, and use cloth to avoid physically touching tap.
ATMs: Wipe before and after use
Indoors
*  Pubs: Avoid
*  Shop/garage/cafe:
  #  minimise such stops (by choice, and by carrying sufficient food and two bottles);
  #  wash ungloved hands with carried (or provided) liquid before/on entry and on/after exit;
  #  adhere to SD and mask wearing (latter not Wales);
  #  rely on COVID risk mitigation measures put in place by establishments for everyone, even cyclists; carry and use own lock: no sharing
  #  choose to sit outside if possible
Comment: Use of shop implies no more NB 'additional' risk to the rider or others in the shop than a 'normal' visit to a shop to buy groceries.
*  Toilets: wash ungloved hands before/on entry and on/after exit; adhere to advertised COVID risk mitigation measures
Overnight stop (once 400+ audaxes are sanctioned)
*  Avoid if reasonable or (DIY) design route to allow 'home' as option
*  See 'Outdoors' and 'Indoors' above

As an aside the Audax UK 'Behaviour Code' says:
"You should wear a suitable face covering when required to do so, e.g. if entering retail premises. If you propose to continue cycling afterwards and find the face covering uncomfortable, you should dispose of it safely, or store it in a sealable plastic bag. If you need to use a face covering later in the ride, you should use a different new or clean one."
Given that a mask's function is to prevent transmission of an asymptomatic individual's viral load, it's not clear to me what merit there is to bag a used mask and not use it again. I expect a proportion of audax cyclists will use a buff anyway so that will be reused.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 08 August, 2020, 01:36:05 pm
My own cautious approach is perhaps influenced by living in Greater Manchester, where Covid rates are apparently quite high and I am not allowed to visit my family, not even in the garden.  I'm very apprehensive of going out of the house at all, I worry about going to the local Co-op for the weekly shop, and there's no way I'd go to a pub or cafe.  It's beginning to feel a bit agoraphobic.  I have no argument with AUKs current policy.

That said, I'm out for a 100km Perm over the weekend.  I intend to have nothing to do with anyone at all.

You're in Oldham aren't you?  The current infection rate there  is 66.6 per 100,000 people (https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/greater-manchesters-very-latest-coronavirus-18736404).    If the mortality/infection ratio is still 1%, that's 0.66 deaths per 100k people per week.

About 5 people die per day on British roads  That's 3 deaths per 100,000 people per year, or 0.06 per week.  Then again, you'll be significantly more at risk than most people, due to the number of miles you do on a bicycle, which is one of the riskier forms of transport out there.  The risks are really in the same ballpark, and if you're worried about C19, you should be equally worried about audax full stop.

Riding a bicycle doesn't make three other people you meet ride a bicycle.
Do you think long-distance cyclists will have an R-number of 3 once we're allowed to ride as much as we like under AUK regs?
(because if not, your comparison is total gibberish, which is unlike you)

Care to share your reasoning on this figure of 3?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Jaded on 08 August, 2020, 01:50:19 pm
I'm applying the same finger in the air resining you are.

Anyway, the whole thread has been summarised here:

The logic of "If I do X, bad thing Y might happen to person Z" only goes so far.  At some point, person Z has to suck it up as the cost of living - otherwise I'd just have to kill myself now so I never risk breathing bad air in your face.

Me Me Me!
Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 08 August, 2020, 02:04:29 pm
If anyone has any specific questions about SIR mathematical epidemic models I can consult with our in house expert.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200808/2328bdd4ee85a33c2c48ff76c6ca629c.jpg)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on 08 August, 2020, 02:46:02 pm
Hadn’t seen the extra bit about face coverings and storage.  I carry my mask in a back pocket and pop it on when going into shops or cafes.  It goes in the wash with the rest of my kit when I get home.

When I have forgotten to put it on (twice), I have been politely reminded by the cafe staff.  On the 2 200s I have ridden in the last week I went in 3 shops on each.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 08 August, 2020, 02:51:16 pm
I'm applying the same finger in the air resining you are.
Interesting you say that ...

I've been following Gov guidance, the laws that apply to us, the statements from qualified scientists, and the guidance from British Cycling.

All of which says that riding long distances (even in small groups) is perfectly reasonable. If I stop at 3 pubs on Mon-Wed, the government will subsidise me by £30  :thumbsup:
Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 08 August, 2020, 03:08:32 pm
The idea of not reusing masks after taking them off until you wash them off is similar to not reusing hankies. By wearing the mask you have hopefully trapped all the nasties on the inside. Once it has been in your pocket there maybe nasties all over including the outside so the next time you put it on it is not effective. Folding it in half to keep the inside inside would help a little.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on 08 August, 2020, 03:33:03 pm
The idea of not reusing masks after taking them off until you wash them off is similar to not reusing hankies. By wearing the mask you have hopefully trapped all the nasties on the inside. Once it has been in your pocket there maybe nasties all over including the outside so the next time you put it on it is not effective. Folding it in half to keep the inside inside would help a little.
It's an idea, except hankies are deliberately used to blow/wipe one's nose: not breath through. And a face covering's purpose is to reduce markedly the volume of any putative viral load going out and is absolutely not designed to prevent "nasties" being breathed in, aiui. And if one puts a mask or buff back on again, then it's the wearer's "nasties" on the inside, and they (the bugs) will be in happy home territory, if indeed there are any "nasties" around to start with. At the end of the ride: wash as normal.
We went through a phase (in the spring) of arguing against masks on the basis that people didn't know how to take them off with professional medical staff correctness (or indeed NBC respirator drill accuracy). But since the wearer is either infectious/ive or not it doesn't seem to matter, in practice. In a hospital, "nasties" may be all around, so it makes absolute sense to use, remove with care, and dispose of safely. But going into shops?
I do think, based on observation this month, that mask wearing indoors (eg shops) gives people a false sense of security and therefore they pay less attention to 'social distancing': bit like wearing a helmet may make riders take more risk 'cos they're protected.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on 08 August, 2020, 03:43:00 pm
There is no issue travelling non locally to an area of similar infection level. There seems to be a perception that it is like spreading flu to the aztecs (or was it mayans). I don’t believe there is anywhere on mainland Britain that has avoided covid and the infection rate is pretty constant bar from a few areas where it is higher.

You should avoid travelling to those areas because you are more likely to catch covid because more people have it. You should avoid travelling from those areas as you are more likely to have it and spread it.
The testing lags the cases by about 2 weeks. So you do not know the risk of traveling until later. Who would have thought last week that travelling to Aberdeen would have been an issue. So in short if we all keep to the social distancing rules and there is no rise in infections there is no added risk in travelling, but you do know the travelling risk until later. By the way the way the flu (or smallpox) spread in populations that had no immunity to those viruses is exactly the same as happened at the start of the infections. The main advantage that we had is that we had some understanding of how these things spread.

BB
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 08 August, 2020, 03:50:43 pm
The idea of not reusing masks after taking them off until you wash them off is similar to not reusing hankies. By wearing the mask you have hopefully trapped all the nasties on the inside. Once it has been in your pocket there maybe nasties all over including the outside so the next time you put it on it is not effective. Folding it in half to keep the inside inside would help a little.
It's an idea, except hankies are deliberately used to blow/wipe one's nose: not breath through. And a face covering's purpose is to reduce markedly the volume of any putative viral load going out and is absolutely not designed to prevent "nasties" being breathed in, aiui. And if one puts a mask or buff back on again, then it's the wearer's "nasties" on the inside, and they (the bugs) will be in happy home territory, if indeed there are any "nasties" around to start with. At the end of the ride: wash as normal.
We went through a phase (in the spring) of arguing against masks on the basis that people didn't know how to take them off with professional medical staff correctness (or indeed NBC respirator drill accuracy). But since the wearer is either infectious/ive or not it doesn't seem to matter, in practice. In a hospital, "nasties" may be all around, so it makes absolute sense to use, remove with care, and dispose of safely. But going into shops?
I do think, based on observation this month, that mask wearing indoors (eg shops) gives people a false sense of security and therefore they pay less attention to 'social distancing': bit like wearing a helmet may make riders take more risk 'cos they're protected.
When you stick it in your pocket you will spread your nasties all over it so they won’t be contained just on the inside. When you put it back on it has your nasties on inside and outside, which you then share around. Hence the suggestion that once used you seal away until you wash it.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 08 August, 2020, 03:59:47 pm
There is no issue travelling non locally to an area of similar infection level. There seems to be a perception that it is like spreading flu to the aztecs (or was it mayans). I don’t believe there is anywhere on mainland Britain that has avoided covid and the infection rate is pretty constant bar from a few areas where it is higher.

You should avoid travelling to those areas because you are more likely to catch covid because more people have it. You should avoid travelling from those areas as you are more likely to have it and spread it.
The testing lags the cases by about 2 weeks. So you do not know the risk of traveling until later. Who would have thought last week that travelling to Aberdeen would have been an issue. So in short if we all keep to the social distancing rules and there is no rise in infections there is no added risk in travelling, but you do know the travelling risk until later. By the way the way the flu (or smallpox) spread in populations that had no immunity to those viruses is exactly the same as happened at the start of the infections. The main advantage that we had is that we had some understanding of how these things spread.

BB
My daughters test came back (negative) in 5 hours. Last week travelling to Aberdeen wasn’t an issue. When a rise in cases is detected you impose a local lock down so that they stop increasing.

If you prefer you can think of it the other way round. Everywhere is in lockdown but where the cases are low and appear to be staying low lockdown is temporarily eased. That is pretty much everywhere currently.

Rather than us come up with our own rules to save the economy and stop the spread, I will do what the government says, which currently allows unlimited travel by car or bicycle to pretty much everywhere.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Jaded on 08 August, 2020, 04:29:25 pm
I'm applying the same finger in the air resining you are.
Interesting you say that ...

I've been following Gov guidance, the laws that apply to us, the statements from qualified scientists, and the guidance from British Cycling.

All of which says that riding long distances (even in small groups) is perfectly reasonable. If I stop at 3 pubs on Mon-Wed, the government will subsidise me by £30  :thumbsup:

Long distance riding is allowable. The thread is about Audax. Go and do long distance rideswitihin the guidelines.

No need to compare infecting people with the risk of crashning.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 08 August, 2020, 04:52:55 pm
Most of this thread is not about audax. Instead it’s more about general Covid stuff. But to be expected with thread drift.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 08 August, 2020, 07:12:42 pm
I'm applying the same finger in the air resining you are.
Interesting you say that ...

I've been following Gov guidance, the laws that apply to us, the statements from qualified scientists, and the guidance from British Cycling.

All of which says that riding long distances (even in small groups) is perfectly reasonable. If I stop at 3 pubs on Mon-Wed, the government will subsidise me by £30  :thumbsup:

Long distance riding is allowable. The thread is about Audax. Go and do long distance rideswitihin the guidelines.

So explain why you want my Audax rides constrained.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Jaded on 08 August, 2020, 11:21:54 pm
I'm applying the same finger in the air resining you are.
Interesting you say that ...

I've been following Gov guidance, the laws that apply to us, the statements from qualified scientists, and the guidance from British Cycling.

All of which says that riding long distances (even in small groups) is perfectly reasonable. If I stop at 3 pubs on Mon-Wed, the government will subsidise me by £30  :thumbsup:

Long distance riding is allowable. The thread is about Audax. Go and do long distance rideswitihin the guidelines.

So explain why you want my Audax rides constrained.

Ah: Me!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 09 August, 2020, 07:48:13 am
Haha, nice try; there are many people asking to do validated rides! (and many more have been riding 200km+ under COVID - they just can't be arsed with arguing with people like you on the internet)

But even if it was just me, what right have you got to constrain "my" riding? Try answering that if you prefer :)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Jaded on 09 August, 2020, 09:29:47 am
I’m not constraining you’re riding. That’s your imagination  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 09 August, 2020, 09:53:44 am
What is the advantage to AUK and to society in general of not validating solo and small group perms >200km? Please consider those other activities that are being actively encouraged during this time.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: bairn again on 09 August, 2020, 10:40:55 am
What is the advantage to AUK and to society in general of not validating solo and small group perms >200km? Please consider those other activities that are being actively encouraged during this time.
.

This ^

I felt that AUK were taking a cautious but logical approach up to 1 August (and came in for some unfair stick imho) but I dont think anybody can tell us what has to change now in order for perms over 200km to resume, unless AUK believe that in allowing a resumption at such distances there is a risk that AUK members will breach local regulations / the law.  Of course as mattc among others has pointed out that risk existed & was accepted pre Covid.

Self interest alert.....

If i knew that a validated 300/400/600 wasnt going to be possible by 30-09-20 Id make a plan to ride those distances just as bike rides, but if hanging on a bit meant those distances could be validated Id prefer that. 

However with 7 weekends left until the end of the season, doing both isnt going to be possible or practical.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Nick Firth on 09 August, 2020, 10:43:14 am
I enjoyed watching Milan-San Remo yesterday, all 305 kms of it, 150 riding together with inches separating them, thousands of spectators watching on at the roadside, where's my Audax ?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on 09 August, 2020, 10:58:56 am
(http://www.aukweb.net/pix/orms-jim.jpg)
hint: not Milan-San Remo
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 09 August, 2020, 11:07:59 am
I always like cool photos of Brits doing eccentric things.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 09 August, 2020, 12:05:57 pm
I enjoyed watching Milan-San Remo yesterday, all 305 kms of it, 150 riding together with inches separating them, thousands of spectators watching on at the roadside, where's my Audax ?
Have both randoneuring and audax restarted in Italy? Suppose you could go there and work to their rules.

AUK has restarted audax, with their interpretation of what can be done under the 4 sets of UK laws and British cycling guidance.
It's just rather blunt.

I saw someone having a grumble about the format of the triathlon mentioned earlier.
It's a bit like the CTT rules, except people are starting in small groups rather than solo.


Based on the FM hitting back at the rags talking about phase 4 with  "were a long way from phase 4", recent climbing infection rates particularly with the "interesting" Aberdeen outbreak. I don't think restrictions on gatherings are going to be lifted anytime soon. So Well be stick with Auks interpretation of how to restart within the restrictions and implementation of them well into next year...

It's basically a choice between shit or not taking part at all.

I call the Aberdeen cluster interesting because in some ways it's been Incredibly lucky.
It was first identified due to the offshore industry's pre-flight test and isolate system.
If that hadn't caught it then the routine sports bubble testing the Aberdeen players who breeched both government guidelines and the further restrictions imposed on them would have identified it (2 out of 8 positive so far).
The only other people receiving routine testing are selected health and social care staff who for reasons (not of enforcement) are less likely to be out on the piss right now.
That means it's been caught within a week of the superspreading event.

It's also interesting because:
- Being the 3rd football outbreak in Scotland it's also the first where clear breech of both government and SFA guidelines have occurred and the political and clinical leads have gone apoplectic on them, and has included phoning club chairmen and captains, telling the sfa/spfl that they cannot put on a match (realistically it'll be Aberdeen next 3 matches) and essentially warning them that if it happens again that their agreement on restarting will be cancelled.
- The 5 mìle travel limit has no exemption like it did previously that allows you to exceed 5 miles while exercising.
- That venues where people have visited will be named (and shamed) before they receive contact from the gov.



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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 09 August, 2020, 12:22:25 pm
Encouraging people to cycle and exercise in general is beneficial to society. I would have liked to see Auk organising some “couch to 50km” rides ( as BC are) and some transition rides to increase distance. Generally in my self appointed mission to get people exercising more I had been getting people to join auk and do addaxes, but clearly not currently but I have persuaded someone to do their first TT tomorrow and got a couple of people doing long distance open water swimming. All these activities carry some risk but this has to be balanced with the benefits. Also, exercise apart, if you are cycling many hours you are not doing other activities. The other week I cycled pretty much every waking hour with minimal interaction with other humans. This week I have been to Wickes , B&Q, Waitrose and our for lunch with my father. My “indoor, other people x minutes” count is a couple of orders of magnitude higher than my cycling week.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LMT on 09 August, 2020, 12:41:13 pm
Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Nick Firth on 09 August, 2020, 12:54:54 pm
OK forget Milan San Remo, I've enjoyed watching some of our AUK members doing some pretty audacious rides on YouTube, 3 riders have done successful LeJog's & one has done a 200, 300, 400 ride with a 600 planned, nobody is stopping them doing those rides, so if that's the case it must be safe to do them.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Philip Whiteman on 09 August, 2020, 12:55:41 pm
Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?

The other day I went for a 200km ride without a brevet card or submitting a GPX file to be validated.  I would never have previously considered this, as I wrongly thought the world would end.  Instead, I gained perspective and realised that it is possible to ride a bicycle with receiving a validation.  I feel liberated.

Clearly, my impression on the world ending was due to reading too many comments by people complaining about a lack of audax validation.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 09 August, 2020, 12:56:21 pm
Yes, if its apparently safe for me to travel to Stornoway by train, bike and ferry, riding huge distances is also surely fine.
Edit: But organizations that activley encourage this have a few other things to consider than I do when cycle touring.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on 09 August, 2020, 01:02:58 pm
Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?

If, as Dave says, encouraging people to exercise is beneficial to society (personally I'm doubtful about that**) then validation provides motivation.  It may not seem very 'tangible' but plenty of people here and elsewhere have already declared how important to them it is.

** my observation yesterday and today is that this little island is way too crowded for everybody to just charge about doing whatever they want in the name of healthy exercise. 
I'm lucky enough to live on the edge of what I've always thought of as 'open country' but since the lockdown eased it's become very obvious that it's not 'open' country at all but criss-crossed with a network of narrow navigable paths.  In fact I chose to live where I do because it's equidistant from 2 interesting and attractive canals (about 200m walk to each) - these towpaths have now been taken over by Undesirables (into which category I place (a) cyclists and runners and (b) parent/child 'bubbles'  :hand: ) and the remoter paths have become increasingly populated as well.

Ironically, when we had total lockdown in April, exercising locally was easy for everyone - the roads were empty so it was easy to socially-distance anywhere - but especially the golf courses were closed, and our three local courses welcomed walkers with a friendly "but please stay off our greens" message, allowing any number of people to promenade in pleasurable safety.  Once golf resumed, of course these huge areas of open space became off-limits again and now there is no-where to go - this morning I saw an actual queue of people forming to get on to our local mixed-use trail (12 miles of ex-railway) - no way is that a health benefit to society.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on 09 August, 2020, 01:16:07 pm
Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?

I look forward to reading your proposal for shutting down Audax UK as a clearly fraudulent enterprise.

And its cousins around the world.

And almost all other sporting awards bodies.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LMT on 09 August, 2020, 01:35:50 pm
Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?

I look forward to reading your proposal for shutting down Audax UK as a clearly fraudulent enterprise.

And its cousins around the world.

And almost all other sporting awards bodies.

What are you going on about it?

People can still ride their bikes, 200, 300k and beyond yet despite this people are still having ago at AUK when there is nothing stopping them going out on their bike and riding a distance. Hence me asking the question if there is any tangible benefit to getting a ride validated.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on 09 August, 2020, 01:54:21 pm
I’ve done 300 and 400k rides in the last few weeks and 2 200k perms in the last week.

Validation would be useful for me but only as part of an SR series.  I would like to extend my run just to have achieved something this year.  My total road mileage is currently ahead of last year which is unexpected.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 09 August, 2020, 02:08:29 pm
Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?

It’s more a benefit to audax UK. The more people ride long distance without validation, the less they will care about it (validation). It may lead the situation in France where for many riders, brevets just become an activity every four years to qualify for PBP etc.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 09 August, 2020, 02:09:52 pm
Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?
For some it might encourage them to ride when otherwise they wouldn’t. There were close to 400 booked to do the lejog audax and perhaps 3 or 4 actually did it unvalidated.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 09 August, 2020, 02:10:57 pm
+1 to both rob and Lightning Phil.

I am not seeing any reason that currently justifies not validating long perms generally, the exceptions being a couple of small regions.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on 09 August, 2020, 02:17:22 pm
What is the advantage to AUK and to society in general of not validating solo and small group perms >200km? Please consider those other activities that are being actively encouraged during this time.
.

This ^

I felt that AUK were taking a cautious but logical approach up to 1 August (and came in for some unfair stick imho) but I dont think anybody can tell us what has to change now in order for perms over 200km to resume, unless AUK believe that in allowing a resumption at such distances there is a risk that AUK members will breach local regulations / the law.  Of course as mattc among others has pointed out that risk existed & was accepted pre Covid.

Self interest alert.....

If i knew that a validated 300/400/600 wasnt going to be possible by 30-09-20 Id make a plan to ride those distances just as bike rides, but if hanging on a bit meant those distances could be validated Id prefer that. 

However with 7 weekends left until the end of the season, doing both isnt going to be possible or practical.

I did suggest on the AUK forum a one-off extension of the season to the end of Oct for this year.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 09 August, 2020, 02:28:28 pm
Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?

It’s more a benefit to audax UK. The more people ride long distance without validation, the less they will care about it (validation). It may lead the situation in France where for many riders, brevets just become an activity every four years to qualify for PBP etc.

There's an expensive IT refresh to pay for that covers all of the ahem... "wanky pish"* AUK do that ACP don't, surely that approach would result in AUKs collapse...


* I hesitated to use that phrase that I've become accustomed to use for extra stuff that isn't core to the purpose, but well... it is isn't it!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: bairn again on 09 August, 2020, 03:37:52 pm
Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?

Personally my 16th consecutive SR, and more generally validation of long bike rides subject to certain min-max speeds is AUKs raison d’etre.  Without validation we’re just doing bike rides.  Nothing wrong with a bike ride but audax events are fairly popular. 

I hear suggestions formal and informal that the 2019/2020 season will be extended into a “doubler” encompassing 1.10.2019 - 30.09.2021.   However that strikes me as unreasonable for the hard core who had already completed a SR pre lockdown. 

As I said ^ I believe that AUK are now in a position where the inability to validate perm rides over 200km isnt justified.

 Additionally the criteria for starting to do so (and therefore the likely timescale for such a relaxation) is also unclear. 

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 09 August, 2020, 05:13:30 pm
I’m not saying anything useful, let alone logical or reasonable. :thumbsup:
FTFY
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 09 August, 2020, 05:48:11 pm
Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?
It doesn't matter - people want it, and it's one of AuK's core activities.

Are you sure you're in the right club?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LMT on 09 August, 2020, 06:01:41 pm
Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?
It doesn't matter - people want it, and it's one of AuK's core activities.

Are you sure you're in the right club?

I'm not questioning AUK or their role. I'm questioning the thinking behind people's mindset when it comes to riding a bike and the need for it to be validated.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 09 August, 2020, 06:06:36 pm
Wanting some recognition or validation for activities is a pretty common approach e.g. “If it isn’t on Strava, it didn’t happen!”
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 09 August, 2020, 06:14:41 pm
Accepting that there's some point to validation is surely the sine qua non of having an organisation in the first place?  If you just want to go out and ride your bike freestyle, there really is no point to AUK or any other governing body.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LMT on 09 August, 2020, 06:15:49 pm
Recognition from who/what?

If you're comfortable with the person staring back at you when looking in the mirror, then recognition matters not n'est pas?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 09 August, 2020, 06:16:56 pm
Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?

I look forward to reading your proposal for shutting down Audax UK as a clearly fraudulent enterprise.

And its cousins around the world.

And almost all other sporting awards bodies.

What are you going on about it?

People can still ride their bikes, 200, 300k and beyond yet despite this people are still having ago at AUK when there is nothing stopping them going out on their bike and riding a distance. Hence me asking the question if there is any tangible benefit to getting a ride validated.
I thought it was quite clear.
1) people can do these rides and there is no benefit in validation
2) therefore audax uk serves no importance

I went out of a 100 mile ride today, in other times it would have been 200km, but it is quite clear to me that audax uk does not wish to validate rides, therefore why spend the extra 90 minutes riding on the heat?

At a time when the uk government had been actively encouraging people to holiday in the UK and to use cafes and restaurants to save peoples jobs and businesses,  audax uk still takes the position that events over 200km carry an unacceptable risk.  I'm not sure what that risk is.

Further they seem to have the opinion that we are all naughty school children who will form up into groups larger than 6 if we are not actively prevented from being on the same 200km course as each other. 

As others have said,  does auk wish to promote long distance cycling,  or does auk wish to be a body for validating pbp qualifying rides once every four years? Because the longer the mana of "you can still do these rides, there is no need for validation" is repeated the more people may come to the conclusion that rides do not need to be validated and consider what benefit they get from audax uk.

I would like to complete an sr series this year, I think I'd rather do it sooner than later, but the potential for valudation of rides in september incentives later, however without that riding on days with more daylight would be preferable.

So in the context of there being no reason to validate rides and we should all just enjoy riding without validation and stop complaining. Is the purpose of continued membership solely not to lose a place on lel, whenever it happens?

It has been clear for some time now that conditions in the country are not changing, ither than a few local outbreaks being identified and local precautions ramped up accordingly.

So what can we imagine being the trigger for a change in approach from the governing body?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LMT on 09 August, 2020, 06:17:43 pm
Accepting that there's some point to validation is surely the sine qua non of having an organisation in the first place?  If you just want to go out and ride your bike freestyle, there really is no point to AUK or any other governing body.

Yeah there is. I'm lazy when it comes to organising a ride, so I pay an organiser a fee and then turn up and ride the event.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 09 August, 2020, 06:19:31 pm
Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?
It doesn't matter - people want it, and it's one of AuK's core activities.

Are you sure you're in the right club?

I'm not questioning AUK or their role. I'm questioning the thinking behind people's mindset when it comes to riding a bike and the need for it to be validated.
You keep saying validation is of negligible benefit, but then state you are not questioning the role of AUK. What is the role if not to promote and recognise the completion of long distance bike rides.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 09 August, 2020, 06:23:06 pm
Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?
Being 4 years into a brevet 250 attempt i'd rather not throw 4 years away and start again from zero, or have a completely unreasonable target of points in year 6.

Others in this place have suggested they would be unhappy with leniency on time frames suggesting either the pandemic should have been planned for, or that it should be considered as similar to bad weather in the winter.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LMT on 09 August, 2020, 06:29:35 pm
Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?
It doesn't matter - people want it, and it's one of AuK's core activities.

Are you sure you're in the right club?

I'm not questioning AUK or their role. I'm questioning the thinking behind people's mindset when it comes to riding a bike and the need for it to be validated.
You keep saying validation is of negligible benefit, but then state you are not questioning the role of AUK. What is the role if not to promote and recognise the completion of long distance bike rides.

You're conflating AUK as a body which validates rides and my opinion where I ask the what the mindset is of someone in the current climate who won't go out and ride a given distance because it won't be validated.

It's important not to confuse the two issues here.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on 09 August, 2020, 06:30:41 pm
Others in this place have suggested they would be unhappy with leniency on time frames suggesting either the pandemic should have been planned for, or that it should be considered as similar to bad weather in the winter.

There are some that have never quite got over the Winter where, due to a particularly inclement Feb, riders were given an extra chance to do a 200 and still complete RRTY.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LMT on 09 August, 2020, 06:37:56 pm
Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?

I look forward to reading your proposal for shutting down Audax UK as a clearly fraudulent enterprise.

And its cousins around the world.

And almost all other sporting awards bodies.

What are you going on about it?

People can still ride their bikes, 200, 300k and beyond yet despite this people are still having ago at AUK when there is nothing stopping them going out on their bike and riding a distance. Hence me asking the question if there is any tangible benefit to getting a ride validated.
I thought it was quite clear.
1) people can do these rides and there is no benefit in validation
2) therefore audax uk serves no importance

I went out of a 100 mile ride today, in other times it would have been 200km, but it is quite clear to me that audax uk does not wish to validate rides, therefore why spend the extra 90 minutes riding on the heat?

At a time when the uk government had been actively encouraging people to holiday in the UK and to use cafes and restaurants to save peoples jobs and businesses,  audax uk still takes the position that events over 200km carry an unacceptable risk.  I'm not sure what that risk is.

Further they seem to have the opinion that we are all naughty school children who will form up into groups larger than 6 if we are not actively prevented from being on the same 200km course as each other. 

As others have said,  does auk wish to promote long distance cycling,  or does auk wish to be a body for validating pbp qualifying rides once every four years? Because the longer the mana of "you can still do these rides, there is no need for validation" is repeated the more people may come to the conclusion that rides do not need to be validated and consider what benefit they get from audax uk.

I would like to complete an sr series this year, I think I'd rather do it sooner than later, but the potential for valudation of rides in september incentives later, however without that riding on days with more daylight would be preferable.

So in the context of there being no reason to validate rides and we should all just enjoy riding without validation and stop complaining. Is the purpose of continued membership solely not to lose a place on lel, whenever it happens?

It has been clear for some time now that conditions in the country are not changing, ither than a few local outbreaks being identified and local precautions ramped up accordingly.

So what can we imagine being the trigger for a change in approach from the governing body?

Given that worldwide it's 19.9m cases and 732k dead I don't believe the 'trigger' that you refer to will be coming anytime soon.

I'm sure AUK want to promote long distance cycling and validating such rides but given the above stats and the fact that we are in a worldwide pandemic it's probably a ways down the list of things that are uber important right now.

And if you want to go out and ride a SR series then do it FFS. It should matter not, getting your name mentioned in some magazine or on a website.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 09 August, 2020, 07:01:23 pm
Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?

It’s more a benefit to audax UK. The more people ride long distance without validation, the less they will care about it (validation). It may lead the situation in France where for many riders, brevets just become an activity every four years to qualify for PBP etc.

There's an expensive IT refresh to pay for that covers all of the ahem... "wanky pish"* AUK do that ACP don't, surely that approach would result in AUKs collapse...


* I hesitated to use that phrase that I've become accustomed to use for extra stuff that isn't core to the purpose, but well... it is isn't it!

I presume you mean AUK when you say approach.

There no approach involved from the riders perspective.  It’s just a simple fact of how habits and hobby’s form and also dissipate.  New hobbies will replace old hobbies if you can no longer do the old hobby in a meaningful way (for you)  for a long enough period. The gap will be filled by new activity (cycling related or not) and the gap for fitting in audax (for that rider) may not reform for some time, if at all.

An example may be that a rider kept meaning to do more touring but audax took up the time. So now they finally get round to the touring and never get back to audax. Carrying on touring with the time freed up.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 09 August, 2020, 07:28:18 pm
Wanting some recognition or validation for activities is a pretty common approach e.g. “If it isn’t on Strava, it didn’t happen!”
It's a form of Gamification, the award at the end of it is encouragement to do it in the first place.

Your first ever 100 and 160km rides probably and  200km possibly rides came from a wish to see if you could ride the distance.
Once you've done it once, you've removed that game because you know you can do it.
But you'll throw more into the game to do it again, hillier? Faster? In a club group? For cake at the turn? Overnight? Able to do again after injury? Tile bagging? Going balls out to the shops to see if you can do it faster?  To collect points towards something bigger?

All little games to make you repeat the challenge.

There is no reason at all for any form of Sport if you remove the game from it.

Cycling, sailing, driving and wheel Barrow pushing would just be transport.
Arrow throwing would just be a form of War.
Football, Rugby would have no reason to exist at all.

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 09 August, 2020, 07:34:13 pm
People grumbling about the break in service not counting towards results are just being curmudgeons imo.

Theres been a period where no one's been able to meet the requirements for awards, it makes sense to discount that time period.

Maybe if they had their pensions recalculated to remove any leave from their servuce length...

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 09 August, 2020, 09:32:08 pm
LMT, other countries are also experiencing this pandemic and have continued or resumed safely riding and validating brevets, as local laws allow. The UK’s laws allow long distance bike rides to occur right now. Why shouldn’t AUK validate such lawful rides?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Frank9755 on 09 August, 2020, 09:54:19 pm
Others have kind of said this already but my main thought is that if auk does not wish to validate 200km+ rides now, there may be a very long wait before things are materially different enough to justify a change, and membership renewals might be lower as a result.

Might someone else step into the gap?  While I'm not volunteering, there is nothing to stop any like minded group of people setting up their own validation system outside AUK. It's three years to pbp so ACP validation is not a pressing issue, and the crazy IT system means the long term viability of AUK is questionable.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LMT on 09 August, 2020, 10:21:57 pm
LMT, other countries are also experiencing this pandemic and have continued or resumed safely riding and validating brevets, as local laws allow. The UK’s laws allow long distance bike rides to occur right now. Why shouldn’t AUK validate such lawful rides?

Ask AUK.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 09 August, 2020, 10:34:50 pm
I have been doing exactly that for quite a few weeks now. Do you argue a point just for the sake of it or do you actually believe it?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LMT on 09 August, 2020, 10:42:16 pm
I have been doing exactly that for quite a few weeks now. Do you argue a point just for the sake of it or do you actually believe it?

Believe what?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 09 August, 2020, 10:44:40 pm
Thanks, question answered.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 09 August, 2020, 10:58:16 pm
I've just made my first foray for a while onto the AUK Forum...

Reasonably positive sounding update from Graeme this morning (and in previous days)
Of course we're arguing about things here that have already been addressed there...


But I like arguing.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Jaded on 09 August, 2020, 10:59:20 pm
I’m not saying anything useful, let alone logical or reasonable. :thumbsup:
FTFY

I'm sure that at some point in the future you'll revisit this comment and apologise.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LMT on 09 August, 2020, 11:05:41 pm
Thanks, question answered.

 ::-)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rabbit on 10 August, 2020, 06:30:19 am
I've just made my first foray for a while onto the AUK Forum...

Reasonably positive sounding update from Graeme this morning (and in previous days)
Of course we're arguing about things here that have already been addressed there...


But I like arguing.

I guess this shows the importance of YACF. I can't get on the Audax forum at the moment as I'm not a member and haven't been for a while.

I have been considering rejoining this season. However, what is the point if I can't (or, for that matter, don't need to) get rides validated?

As mentioned above, AUK are going to haemorrhage members at renewal if they continue to refuse to validate rides that can easily and safely be run within the Government's guidelines.

In the meantime I guess this thread has made me realise that validation is ultimately pointless for me now. It was important when I was working toward the bigger awards. It was also important when I was new and inexperienced at creating my own routes. It was important when I needed the 'game' as a driver to push myself. Now? I'd only rejoin and validate to support AUK to allow others to do this. It seems like AUK doesn't really want/need that support.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on 10 August, 2020, 08:49:53 am
That's not a very good reason to be a member.  You don't even know for sure that each member is not a net loss to AUK.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LMT on 10 August, 2020, 09:23:47 am
^+1

And I don't believe that AUK will lose members at renewal in vast numbers, annual fee is £19? Hardly breaking the bank when you spread the cost over a year and I believe that most people 'get' the current situation and that we are in trying times and it will get better you just need time...and a vaccine.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rabbit on 10 August, 2020, 09:33:52 am
^+1

And I don't believe that AUK will lose members at renewal in vast numbers, annual fee is £19? Hardly breaking the bank when you spread the cost over a year and I believe that most people 'get' the current situation and that we are in trying times and it will get better you just need time...and a vaccine.

With redundancy looming for many, cut hours, furlough and an unsecured future, wasting £19 on something that isn't needed is unlikely to be at the top of my list.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: postie on 10 August, 2020, 10:14:52 am
Some years ago something like 70% of the membership didn't ride any events! So if its still anywhere near that alot of people are paying for something they dont use already.

Plus any sensible person pays for 5 years for the price of 4, perfect financial sense  :thumbsup:

On another note i rode 207kms yesterday for fun ,, no validation or reward, apart from a great day out and two good pub visits( the purpose of the ride) :thumbsup:
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Manotea on 10 August, 2020, 01:46:48 pm
That's not a very good reason to be a member.  You don't even know for sure that each member is not a net loss to AUK.
Hardly a concern for any organisation on track to spend £500k on half a website... 😁
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 10 August, 2020, 04:28:52 pm
The idea of not reusing masks after taking them off until you wash them off is similar to not reusing hankies. By wearing the mask you have hopefully trapped all the nasties on the inside. Once it has been in your pocket there maybe nasties all over including the outside so the next time you put it on it is not effective. Folding it in half to keep the inside inside would help a little.
As my face covering is a buff folded in half, the inside only touches the inside, but even if I somehow put it back on inside out, the "nasties" if there were any woukd still be on the mask. The mask is not a 100% virus proof barrier but the benefit is achieved by massively reducing exhalation velocity. Are you suggesting that any virus particles on my buff will be resuspended on the air by me breathing the wrong way through it, and spread as far as if I had not been wearing it?. I would hope no one will be touching it.

Also if I keep my buff on all the time and just raise/lower as required this issue goes away too. Bit warm for that today though.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 10 August, 2020, 04:32:59 pm
The idea of not reusing masks after taking them off until you wash them off is similar to not reusing hankies. By wearing the mask you have hopefully trapped all the nasties on the inside. Once it has been in your pocket there maybe nasties all over including the outside so the next time you put it on it is not effective. Folding it in half to keep the inside inside would help a little.
As my face covering is a buff folded in half, the inside only touches the inside, but even if I somehow put it back on inside out, the "nasties" if there were any woukd still be on the mask. The mask is not a 100% virus proof barrier but the benefit is achieved by massively reducing exhalation velocity. Are you suggesting that any virus particles on my buff will be resuspended on the air by me breathing the wrong way through it, and spread as far as if I had not been wearing it?. I would hope no one will be touching it.

Also if I keep my buff on all the time and just raise/lower as required this issue goes away too. Bit warm for that today though.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own#maintaining-and-disposing-of-face-coverings point 9. When you take your face covering off, put it in a sealed bag until you wash it.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 10 August, 2020, 04:54:26 pm
And yet paragraph 4 advises to wash the face covering regularly, and not after every single use.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 10 August, 2020, 05:08:27 pm
And yet paragraph 4 advises to wash the face covering regularly, and not after every single use.
Sorry can’t see that section 4. Section 5 goes into detail about washing it every time you take it off.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 10 August, 2020, 05:10:56 pm
It also says “avoid taking it off and putting it back on again when entering and leaving shops”. It is not all consistent.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 10 August, 2020, 06:17:32 pm
And yet paragraph 4 advises to wash the face covering regularly, and not after every single use.
Sorry can’t see that section 4. Section 5 goes into detail about washing it every time you take it off.
When I follow the link it goes straight to section 9, paragraph 1 do not touch front of covering or part that has touched mouth or nose - check
Paragraph 2 once removed store in plastic bag until you have an opportunity to wash... - this could be taken to imply wash after every use
Para 3 make sure you clean surfaces the covering has touched and don't put on cafe table - well duh
Para 4 wash regularly and follow instructions for the fabric.  -  personally I think after every use goes beyond regularly,  which implies one a day at most.

I see about not taking it on and off in quick succession,  that suggests to me if you are visiting multiple ships in a short space of time,  just leave it on.

I suppose the last section of section 5 "when removing... wash in line...." could mean after single use,  but then they could make a very clear statement once - "do not reapply a removed covering" which would cover all those other cases with more certainty
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 10 August, 2020, 07:53:55 pm
I would stay away from ships, they seem particularly bad


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: bairn again on 10 August, 2020, 09:44:32 pm
Others have kind of said this already but my main thought is that if auk does not wish to validate 200km+ rides now, there may be a very long wait before things are materially different enough to justify a change, and membership renewals might be lower as a result.

Might someone else step into the gap?  While I'm not volunteering, there is nothing to stop any like minded group of people setting up their own validation system outside AUK. It's three years to pbp so ACP validation is not a pressing issue, and the crazy IT system means the long term viability of AUK is questionable.

An Audax Ecosse independent of AUK is, apparently, “ever closer”
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Frank9755 on 10 August, 2020, 10:16:28 pm
An Audax Ecosse independent of AUK is, apparently, “ever closer”

Exciting!  Will it accept overseas members...?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on 10 August, 2020, 10:52:53 pm
Perhaps at a discount?? 
Oh no - silly me, that's never gonna work  :P
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on 11 August, 2020, 11:07:24 am
When I follow the link it goes straight to section 9, paragraph 1 do not touch front of covering or part that has touched mouth or nose - check
Paragraph 2 once removed store in plastic bag until you have an opportunity to wash... - this could be taken to imply wash after every use
Para 3 make sure you clean surfaces the covering has touched and don't put on cafe table - well duh
Para 4 wash regularly and follow instructions for the fabric.  -  personally I think after every use goes beyond regularly,  which implies one a day at most.
I suppose the last section of section 5 "when removing... wash in line...." could mean after single use,  but then they could make a very clear statement once - "do not reapply a removed covering" which would cover all those other cases with more certainty
Current Audax UK Behaviour Code [ https://audax.uk/media/2181/england-behaviour-code.pdf ]
"You should wear a suitable face covering when required to do so, e.g. if entering retail premises. If you propose to continue cycling afterwards and find the face covering uncomfortable, you should dispose of it safely, or store it in a sealable plastic bag. If you need to use a face covering later in the ride, you should use a different new or clean one."
I appreciate that this passage has been replicated probably verbatim, from a BC behaviour code, and maybe we just leave it out there.
The 'do not reuse' direction (follow this behaviour code) is actually not in line with WHO advice and does not reflect the real 'Coping with COVID-19' world (fine in hospitals with medical grade masks where there's increased risk for both wearer and those around). Does the London commuter carry half a dozen masks in their handbag, one for every time? No. And nor will long distance cyclists.
I suggest the use it and bag it / bin it guidance has been pulled across from medical mask use without being moderated by considerations of practicality and the different environments.
WHO - https://www.who.int/images/default-source/health-topics/coronavirus/clothing-masks-infographic---(web)-logo-who.png?sfvrsn=b15e3742_16
WHO also recommend "People should NOT wear masks when exercising".
Essentially: use face covering, remove and bag, and reuse, and in due course for non-disposables eg buff or lovingly crafted home-made one, clean.
Here's a proposed revised text for Audax UK to use in an amended 'Behaviour Code':
"Maintain hygiene standards. In particular, wash or disinfect your hands regularly and before and after using any shops, toilets or other facilities. You should carry with you a tube or container of an appropriate alcohol-based handwash gel for use in circumstances where the use of soap and water is not possible. You should wear a suitable face covering when required to do so, e.g. if entering retail premises. If you propose to continue cycling afterwards and find the face covering uncomfortable, Afterwards you should dispose of it safely, or store it in a sealable plastic bag for reuse as necessary. If you need to use a face covering later in the ride, you should use a different new or clean one."
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 11 August, 2020, 11:46:26 am
The wash dire tly after use for reusable masks comes directly from government advice on the matter. So little choice for it to be repeated ver stom down the chains of advice.

The practicalities on the other hand...

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 11 August, 2020, 02:10:29 pm
The Auk guidance could say “wear a mask in accordance with government regulation and advice in the region(s) the ride is taking place” like it might say “abide by the Highway Code” without detailing what exactly that entails.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Frank9755 on 11 August, 2020, 02:16:32 pm
The Auk guidance could say “wear a mask in accordance with government regulation and advice in the region(s) the ride is taking place” like it might say “abide by the Highway Code” without detailing what exactly that entails.

Brilliant!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 11 August, 2020, 05:45:02 pm
The Auk guidance could say “wear a mask in accordance with government regulation and advice in the region(s) the ride is taking place” like it might say “abide by the Highway Code” without detailing what exactly that entails.
It  sounds so simple doesn't it?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: teethgrinder on 11 August, 2020, 05:52:26 pm
The Auk guidance could say “wear a mask in accordance with government regulation and advice in the region(s) the ride is taking place” like it might say “abide by the Highway Code” without detailing what exactly that entails.

I think that's all it needs.
It does seem odd that I could ride consecutive 200s but not a longer event. I could still ride my 400km route for example by entering as 2x200s. I don't know why riding a longer event is a problem.
The restaurants are packed now with the, "Eat out to help out," promotion. Weekends are busy too. People are staying in hotels. What is so wrong with riding an Audax >200km?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Panoramix on 11 August, 2020, 06:15:56 pm
Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?

It’s more a benefit to audax UK. The more people ride long distance without validation, the less they will care about it (validation). It may lead the situation in France where for many riders, brevets just become an activity every four years to qualify for PBP etc.

In France we don't have so many long rides organised and it is a shame IMHO, I miss living in Bristol as I could take part in long distances ride whenever I wanted to, even during the winter.
So  although the website and the marketing hype they try to generate baffles me, AUK is a brilliant club as it provide around the year "social" long distance rides without all the non sense attached to sportives.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on 11 August, 2020, 06:42:46 pm
Essentially: use face covering, remove and bag, and reuse, and in due course for non-disposables eg buff or lovingly crafted home-made one, clean.

If you use a buff with a large distinct pattern it's relatively easy to rotate it with each use giving at least 4 'clean' (over the mouth/nose) re-uses.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 11 August, 2020, 07:02:51 pm
The idea of not reusing masks after taking them off until you wash them off is similar to not reusing hankies. By wearing the mask you have hopefully trapped all the nasties on the inside. Once it has been in your pocket there maybe nasties all over including the outside so the next time you put it on it is not effective. Folding it in half to keep the inside inside would help a little.
As my face covering is a buff folded in half, the inside only touches the inside, but even if I somehow put it back on inside out, the "nasties" if there were any woukd still be on the mask. The mask is not a 100% virus proof barrier but the benefit is achieved by massively reducing exhalation velocity. Are you suggesting that any virus particles on my buff will be resuspended on the air by me breathing the wrong way through it, and spread as far as if I had not been wearing it?. I would hope no one will be touching it.

Also if I keep my buff on all the time and just raise/lower as required this issue goes away too. Bit warm for that today though.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own#maintaining-and-disposing-of-face-coverings point 9. When you take your face covering off, put it in a sealed bag until you wash it.

What’s the science behind that?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 11 August, 2020, 07:25:08 pm
The Auk guidance could say “wear a mask in accordance with government regulation and advice in the region(s) the ride is taking place” like it might say “abide by the Highway Code” without detailing what exactly that entails.

I think that's all it needs.
It does seem odd that I could ride consecutive 200s but not a longer event. I could still ride my 400km route for example by entering as 2x200s. I don't know why riding a longer event is a problem.
The restaurants are packed now with the, "Eat out to help out," promotion. Weekends are busy too. People are staying in hotels. What is so wrong with riding an Audax >200km?
The original reason given was at the time overnight stays were not allowed and to ride more than 200 if using the full value might require overnighting. At the time I pointed out that overnight stays were provisionally pencilled in for start of July in England and mid July for the rest.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 11 August, 2020, 07:36:41 pm
The idea of not reusing masks after taking them off until you wash them off is similar to not reusing hankies. By wearing the mask you have hopefully trapped all the nasties on the inside. Once it has been in your pocket there maybe nasties all over including the outside so the next time you put it on it is not effective. Folding it in half to keep the inside inside would help a little.
As my face covering is a buff folded in half, the inside only touches the inside, but even if I somehow put it back on inside out, the "nasties" if there were any woukd still be on the mask. The mask is not a 100% virus proof barrier but the benefit is achieved by massively reducing exhalation velocity. Are you suggesting that any virus particles on my buff will be resuspended on the air by me breathing the wrong way through it, and spread as far as if I had not been wearing it?. I would hope no one will be touching it.

Also if I keep my buff on all the time and just raise/lower as required this issue goes away too. Bit warm for that today though.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own#maintaining-and-disposing-of-face-coverings point 9. When you take your face covering off, put it in a sealed bag until you wash it.

What’s the science behind that?
The mask if working well (and the wearer has covid) is collecting virons inside. After some time it will be quite a source of infection -  so you seal it in a bag and wash your hands. Although this keeps the contents safe it also means you have a bag full of covid with a mask in. if you get it out again it is possibly worse than no mask at all.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 11 August, 2020, 08:04:31 pm
Got any links to the peer reviewed science to define sometime and the evidence of quite a source of infection (to others)?  I’m looking for the science not idle pondering and speculation by DaveF of YACF.

For instance an audaxer may go into say three shops on a 200km ride. They spend 5 mins in each. Is the covering now quite a source of infection? 
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: teethgrinder on 11 August, 2020, 08:20:19 pm
The original reason given was at the time overnight stays were not allowed and to ride more than 200 if using the full value might require overnighting. At the time I pointed out that overnight stays were provisionally pencilled in for start of July in England and mid July for the rest.

Yes and that's all changed now. People are staying in hotels. Campsites are open. Restaurants are busy. I could ride any distance without doing anything worse than the rest of the general public, can't I?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 11 August, 2020, 08:22:38 pm
Got any links to the peer reviewed science to define sometime and the evidence of quite a source of infection (to others)?  I’m looking for the science not idle pondering and speculation by DaveF of YACF.

For instance an audaxer may go into say three shops on a 200km ride. They spend 5 mins in each. Is the covering now quite a source of infection?

None of the government websites that state to wash after every use seem to be quoting studies, but you can start on the assumption that this is allowing for the worst case until evidence to the contrary is provided.  Which is the general route that's been taken.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on 11 August, 2020, 09:14:50 pm
On the awkward forum it's been revealed that AUK have suddenly had to shop for a new insurer during all this, and the abundance of caution has been part of trying to impress the new one.

Which makes a bit more sense.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: bairn again on 11 August, 2020, 09:26:33 pm
On the awkward forum it's been revealed that AUK have suddenly had to shop for a new insurer during all this, and the abundance of caution has been part of trying to impress the new one.

Which makes a bit more sense.

Yes Im sure its been the mother and farther of insurance renewals. 

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 11 August, 2020, 09:44:19 pm
Aye that must have been a major ball ache, I noted indication of how long it took to find someone to insure as well.

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 11 August, 2020, 10:07:15 pm
Got any links to the peer reviewed science to define sometime and the evidence of quite a source of infection (to others)?  I’m looking for the science not idle pondering and speculation by DaveF of YACF.

For instance an audaxer may go into say three shops on a 200km ride. They spend 5 mins in each. Is the covering now quite a source of infection?
There is little or no evidence about reuse of face masks and so the the recommendations of government and WHO are based on a cautious approach. The references at the end of https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/extended-use-or-re-use-of-single-use-surgical-masks-and-filtering-facepiece-respirators-a-rapid-evidence-review/ provide some but reusable face masks are a new thing and so most studies are on reusing single use masks in a ppe shortage. The govt guidance about after removing a face mask and putting it a plastic bag and leaving it there until you wash it is generic advice. My idle pondering is only about why the govt guidance is exists. The guidance could of course be much more complicated and cover scenarios such as multiple short trips into shops.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 11 August, 2020, 10:31:25 pm
Got any links to the peer reviewed science to define sometime and the evidence of quite a source of infection (to others)?  I’m looking for the science not idle pondering and speculation by DaveF of YACF.

For instance an audaxer may go into say three shops on a 200km ride. They spend 5 mins in each. Is the covering now quite a source of infection?


None of the government websites that state to wash after every use seem to be quoting studies, but you can start on the assumption that this is allowing for the worst case until evidence to the contrary is provided.  Which is the general route that's been taken.

The new worst case scenario suit for entering shops on an audax.

(https://www.premiersafety.com/cmsstatic/img/og-1s-a.jpg)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 12 August, 2020, 06:44:02 am
I had some reusable masks from Wilco that weigh 9g each and pack away to very small volume - about the same as a tyre lever. I paid a £1 each. There are only more expensive and I suspect thicker ones showing on Wilco website now as there seems to be a move to multilayer masks. On a multi day ride recently each night I was just putting them all in the hotel sink and pouring a kettle of boiling water over them and leaving them for a few minutes. After 5 days they were knackered and I binned them. I also had a more robust mask - I think a few of them would be better. The other practical issue was that you are not meant to use masks if they are wet but you also want them easily accessible. The final consideration is how easy they are to put on with numb hands (and possibly a helmet)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: perpetual dan on 12 August, 2020, 10:18:43 am
For instance an audaxer may go into say three shops on a 200km ride. They spend 5 mins in each. Is the covering now quite a source of infection?

I don't have any references to cite, but I'm not called Dave...
Take a bit of fabric, add breath, sweat, suncream, snot and a bit of food / drink that was around my mouth from eating while riding. Touch with hands that have been on my bike and picking up goods handled by others in a shop. Repeat in a few locations and brew in a pocket in the sun / rain for 12 hours (maybe longer, we're all keen to do longer rides after all). Then put it round my mouth and hands one last time and sit down to eat. Seems pretty manky to me.  :sick:
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on 12 August, 2020, 11:43:04 am
For instance an audaxer may go into say three shops on a 200km ride. They spend 5 mins in each. Is the covering now quite a source of infection?
Take a bit of fabric, add breath, sweat, suncream, snot and a bit of food / drink that was around my mouth from eating while riding. Touch with hands that have been on my bike and picking up goods handled by others in a shop. Repeat in a few locations and brew in a pocket in the sun / rain for 12 hours (maybe longer, we're all keen to do longer rides after all). Then put it round my mouth and hands one last time and sit down to eat. Seems pretty manky to me.  :sick:
Dan - you've missed out the hand washing before and after entering a 'retail outlet' (requiring face covering).
"Wash hands (with carried sanitiser). Fit fabric over mouth. Add breath, sweat, suncream, snot and a bit of food / drink / saliva that was around my mouth from eating while riding.  Pick up goods possibly handled by others in a shop (same as you do at home).  Touch face covering with hands that have been recently cleaned and remove, and bag. Repeat in a few locations and brew in a pocket in the sun / rain for 12 hours (maybe longer, we're all keen to do longer rides after all) [Comment: heat is thought to reduce viral efficacy aiui.] Clean hands (with carried sanitiser) then put it round my mouth and hands one last time and sit down to eat, without the face covering on (obv)."

FTFY. I reckon my hands will be a lot cleaner following the current AudaxUK Behaviour Code than ever before. And, entering a shop, I bet they're a lot cleaner than 90% of the shop's other customers (unless it's a shop which has provided a hand wash station outside - not 'normal for Devon').

If a rider is pre-symptomatic or asymptomatic then most exhaled viral load will be captured by the face covering (designed not to protect but to achieve 'source control') and any escaping viral load will be 'slowed down' so physical distancing is the reasonable risk mitigation for that. And the rider will then reuse that face covering several times (with the same/satisfactory (source control) protective function). They can't infect themselves, can they? And if the rider is not in that category (ie is not infected) then there will be no viral load on the face covering (source control) so reusing offers no risk.
The Auk guidance could say “wear a mask in accordance with government regulation and advice in the region(s) the ride is taking place” like it might say “abide by the Highway Code” without detailing what exactly that entails.
Yes, Dave, that's much better than my clumsy attempt to improve the AudaxUK code and will not need to be changed if government regulation/guidance changes. Bespoke guidance always risks different interpretations and 'discussion'. But if we can just revert to gov/local 'authority' then an individual - riding or just during daily activity - can just get on with it.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: perpetual dan on 12 August, 2020, 12:24:08 pm
For instance an audaxer may go into say three shops on a 200km ride. They spend 5 mins in each. Is the covering now quite a source of infection?
Take a bit of fabric, add breath, sweat, suncream, snot and a bit of food / drink that was around my mouth from eating while riding. Touch with hands that have been on my bike and picking up goods handled by others in a shop. Repeat in a few locations and brew in a pocket in the sun / rain for 12 hours (maybe longer, we're all keen to do longer rides after all). Then put it round my mouth and hands one last time and sit down to eat. Seems pretty manky to me.  :sick:
Dan - you've missed out the hand washing before and after entering a 'retail outlet' (requiring face covering).
"Wash hands (with carried sanitiser). Fit fabric over mouth. Add breath, sweat, suncream, snot and a bit of food / drink / saliva that was around my mouth from eating while riding.  Pick up goods possibly handled by others in a shop (same as you do at home).  Touch face covering with hands that have been recently cleaned and remove, and bag. Repeat in a few locations and brew in a pocket in the sun / rain for 12 hours (maybe longer, we're all keen to do longer rides after all) [Comment: heat is thought to reduce viral efficacy aiui.] Clean hands (with carried sanitiser) then put it round my mouth and hands one last time and sit down to eat, without the face covering on (obv)."

FTFY. I reckon my hands will be a lot cleaner following the current AudaxUK Behaviour Code than ever before. And, entering a shop, I bet they're a lot cleaner than 90% of the shop's other customers (unless it's a shop which has provided a hand wash station outside - not 'normal for Devon').

If a rider is pre-symptomatic or asymptomatic then most exhaled viral load will be captured by the face covering (designed not to protect but to achieve 'source control') and any escaping viral load will be 'slowed down' so physical distancing is the reasonable risk mitigation for that. And the rider will then reuse that face covering several times (with the same/satisfactory (source control) protective function). They can't infect themselves, can they? And if the rider is not in that category (ie is not infected) then there will be no viral load on the face covering (source control) so reusing offers no risk.


Fair enough, I missed the bit about hand washing. Maybe if we all use enough hand sanitiser the masks will be cleaned by handling?
The "one last time" was intended to reflect the post-ride food purchase, and the act of transferring from mask to mouth and hands just before eating - not using the face mask as a sieve for my meal :)
Anyhow, quite apart from covid, what I described sounds like school science experiment in breeding germs (in a way that reusing a mask in one shopping trip, then washing, isn't).

I suspect flapping a reused mask about in the shop doorway or wearing it inside out compared to previous use make a mask less effective at reducing the spread of covid, but I lack the proof on how much.
I also suspect that enforcing the use of fresh masks isn't the main limiting factor in the current audax arrangements, but again lack any proof.
Adding layers of interpretation on the muddle from the English government feels like a distraction :)

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: stefan on 14 August, 2020, 12:27:44 am
Some major announcements from tonight's AUK board meeting here:

https://audax.uk/news/covid-19-update-13-august-2020/

Time to get planning  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 14 August, 2020, 06:24:18 am
Finally the AUK Board is getting somewhere. Long perms (up to 600km nominal) available from 15th August, the season finishing at the end of October and possibly some calendar brevets (up to 300km nominal) running from the beginning of September.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: davocon on 14 August, 2020, 06:40:21 am
Will that includes DIY rides?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: JonBuoy on 14 August, 2020, 06:54:22 am
From https://audax.uk/media/2107/auk-regulations-2020-02-20.pdf section 7.3.1 Additional Event Classifications:

Quote
(f) DIY events (DIY) are permanent events where riders provide the organiser with their own
control details

So I reckon that that will be a yes  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: davocon on 14 August, 2020, 08:21:40 am
Thanks, I have seen DIY referred (probably correctly) as DIY Permanents, but I just wanted to check. Thank you.   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 14 August, 2020, 08:33:40 am
Excellent
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: postie on 14 August, 2020, 08:44:31 am
S. R. here we come, I don't expect those who have been whining like babies to rush out and do a 600km

I have routes sorted for all distances  :thumbsup:
And a extra month to do it.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on 14 August, 2020, 09:11:06 am
S. R. here we come, I don't expect those who have been whining like babies to rush out and do a 600km

I have routes sorted for all distances  :thumbsup:
And a extra month to do it.

I've got a 600 that starts a 15 minute ride away.   Annoyingly bit tied up at the moment.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Nick Firth on 14 August, 2020, 09:20:44 am
I need an SR for Ultra (10) it's going to be hard, I finished a 200 yesterday in a coma from the waist down.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 14 August, 2020, 09:34:47 am
S. R. here we come, I don't expect those who have been whining like babies to rush out and do a 600km

I have routes sorted for all distances  :thumbsup:
And a extra month to do it.
I had planned to finish my season at the start of August post lejog and change sport temporarily. With that kind of fighting talk I might have to do a validated SR in September. Are ECEs ok ?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 14 August, 2020, 09:58:45 am
Hoping to finish a SR by the end of September, conditions allowing. As usual, building up the distances to allow the body to adapt to long distance again.

Not keen on long distance rides in 30+ degrees without a big mileage in the bank already as there is too much chance of breaking myself. I hope that next week will be cooler.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: postie on 14 August, 2020, 11:11:41 am
It's going to be a late season blast :thumbsup:
Like the idea of moving back to 31st October season finish in line with brm.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bikeabilityman on 14 August, 2020, 11:44:08 am
S. R. here we come, I don't expect those who have been whining like babies to rush out and do a 600km

I have routes sorted for all distances  :thumbsup:
And a extra month to do it.
I had planned to finish my season at the start of August post lejog and change sport temporarily. With that kind of fighting talk I might have to do a validated SR in September. Are ECEs ok ?
They usually are. I was hoping to do one SR this Audax year. A DIY 600 to my dad and back would be perfect.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on 14 August, 2020, 01:37:08 pm
S. R. here we come, I don't expect those who have been whining like babies to rush out and do a 600km
I have routes sorted for all distances  :thumbsup:
And a extra month to do it.
I had planned to finish my season at the start of August post lejog and change sport temporarily. With that kind of fighting talk I might have to do a validated SR in September. Are ECEs ok ?
ECEs are 'OK', effectively wef 1 Sep, of course.
300 DIY early next week for me: Tue/Wed forecast looks best, after le deluge and before the storm - tail end of Hurricane Lorenzo.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Charco on 15 August, 2020, 01:02:24 pm
Am I right in thinking the board announcement means that cal events will return with limit of 6 people?


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: postie on 15 August, 2020, 01:10:45 pm
I think not, but I understand there is a limit to how many rides
British cycling currently Say a 30 person limit as I understand

All will become clearer in the next few days I guess.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 15 August, 2020, 01:19:41 pm
S. R. here we come, I don't expect those who have been whining like babies to rush out and do a 600km

I've got one planned for 2 weeks time. (Booked a couple of weeks ago.)

Do feel free to clarify if that is "rushing out", and whether you think I was "whining like a baby" :)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: bairn again on 15 August, 2020, 01:36:42 pm
My intention is to complete my SR by doing them in the following order : 400-600-300 starting next weekend and with a weekend off in between each one.

Conventional wisdom would suggest building up in distance but I think Id prefer to take advantage of the longer days (iirc theres over 2 hours more daylight at the beginning of September than the end) and better weather (maybe) to switch the order.  I will ease myself in by doing a “gentlemans” 400 ie lunchtime start, 2 loops of 200 with a sleep/wash/tlc in between. 

Of course it could all fall foul of what happens to best laid plans. 
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 16 August, 2020, 01:41:07 am
300 done in March before lockdown.  400 next weekend.  This weekend bike maintenence.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 16 August, 2020, 12:15:55 pm
I think not, but I understand there is a limit to how many rides
British cycling currently Say a 30 person limit as I understand

All will become clearer in the next few days I guess.

I believe the BC guidance on up to 30 people is for training only.

The advice (and stated law ) currently on the UK government website is still no more than 6 different households outside, or up to 30  for specific reasons, which audax events don’t qualify under. So it’ll be interesting to see what the audax UK guidance is, if they want larger numbers, for calendar events. Else why bother over and above perms? They’d have to be clear segregation of riders to ensure no more than six (including organiser) gathered together at start and finish. Plus riders would have to be reminded no more than six gathered together during the ride.  It’s all about the interpretation of gathered together for the purposes of this 30 people figure.

Here’s the current text on the UK government website.

“ You should only be socialising in groups of up to two households (including your support bubble) indoors and outdoors or up to six people from different households when outdoors.

More generally, you can continue to meet in larger groups if necessary for work, voluntary or charitable services, education, childcare or training, elite sporting competition or training, to fulfil legal obligations, to provide emergency assistance, or to enable someone to avoid illness, injury or risk of harm.

It is otherwise against the law for gatherings of more than 30 people to take place in private homes (including gardens and other outdoor spaces). Businesses and venues following COVID-19 Secure guidelines can host larger groups. This is also the case for events in public outdoor spaces that are organised by businesses, charitable or political organisations, and public bodies, provided they take reasonable steps to mitigate the risk of transmission, in line with COVID-19 Secure guidance and including completion of a risk assessment. This can include weddings, civil partnership ceremonies and funerals (which we advise should be limited to no more than 30 people), religious ceremonies and services, community activities and support groups. Any other gathering in an outdoor space or in a private home (or garden) must not be any larger than 30 people.”
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on 16 August, 2020, 12:36:33 pm
Our BC club is running rides on a Sunday morning again. Nominally we've pre-organised rides online with groups of six but everyone is now meeting in the same place at the same time and a certain amount of socialising is happening.

So at least briefly there's far more than 6 people gathering at once, same as might happen at a staggered start calendar event.

I can't find anything explicit about this being allowed in the BC guidance, but previously they required us to meet in separate places, so I presume they've had new information. I should ask.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Kim on 16 August, 2020, 12:53:46 pm
We have a numbers limit of 60 people for the BHPC racing at Darley Moor (all outdoor, apart from a basic toilet block).  I think this is being imposed by the venue, which is presumably following some motorsport organisation's guidelines.

Whether we count as "elite sporting competition" left as an exercise for the reader...
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Charco on 16 August, 2020, 03:32:04 pm
Im struggling to get my head around how triathlon events can be allowed but audax limited to 6 over 300km.....


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 16 August, 2020, 04:56:32 pm
Im struggling to get my head around how triathlon events can be allowed but audax limited to 6 over 300km.....


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Most triathlons are non drafting so you dq for being within 8m in the bike bit. Multiple separated groups of 6 are allowed under bc rules since 18th June. I did a club TT with 52 participants last week. I also swim in a lake at the same time as 99 other people. No laws are broken. I am more intrigued by British athletics organising runs with up to 4000 competitors in the next week.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Charco on 16 August, 2020, 05:06:24 pm
I get there is no drafting on the bike but I’m thinking more about that amount of people going to one location. Toilets etc. Seems to me  to be higher risk than an audax. Do people ride audax in groups of 6 or larger?

Maybe it’s just me but I would feel far safer on a 300km audax w normal numbers riding at my own pace than on a 80km club ride w 5 others 


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 16 August, 2020, 05:21:57 pm
I get there is no drafting on the bike but I’m thinking more about that amount of people going to one location. Toilets etc. Seems to me  to be higher risk than an audax. Do people ride audax in groups of 6 or larger?

Maybe it’s just me but I would feel far safer on a 300km audax w normal numbers riding at my own pace than on a 80km club ride w 5 others 


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British triathlon are only allowing small local triathlons currently.

Interestingly I just got notification that a sportive I do most years organised by a local charity is going ahead with no manned start, no specific start time and you have to complete it on one of the 3 days of the aug bank holiday. Rather than the usual 3 controls, there will be a choice of about 20 pubs and cafes participating. Finishers medals will be posted to those that have joined the strava group for the event.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: phil d on 16 August, 2020, 06:47:25 pm
I'm hoping to run Upper Thames this year (Nov 7th) and am well advanced in post-Covid planning. The numbers thing remains the one major unknown. I normally have about 100 starters, though this year expect rather less. But even 50 starting together would be driving a coach and horses through current guidance. My current thinking is to allocate multiple time-slots for starting between 0700 and 0830 (we normally start at 0730), with small groups setting off every 10 minutes. Groups will quickly break up (and possibly re-form) down the road, so I'm not concerned about numbers except at the start.

Otherwise planning is well advanced in terms of how I manage the depart and arrivee, including the use of bar-code scanning to determine actual departure time of each rider so I can properly measure ride elapsed time.

Unfortunately it doesn't look as if we'll be able to provide food at start or finish, though I'm hoping hot drinks will be possible.
Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 16 August, 2020, 07:13:18 pm
I'm hoping to run Upper Thames this year (Nov 7th) and am well advanced in post-Covid planning. The numbers thing remains the one major unknown. I normally have about 100 starters, though this year expect rather less. But even 50 starting together would be driving a coach and horses through current guidance. My current thinking is to allocate multiple time-slots for starting between 0700 and 0830 (we normally start at 0730), with small groups setting off every 10 minutes. Groups will quickly break up (and possibly re-form) down the road, so I'm not concerned about numbers except at the start.

Otherwise planning is well advanced in terms of how I manage the depart and arrivee, including the use of bar-code scanning to determine actual departure time of each rider so I can properly measure ride elapsed time.

Unfortunately it doesn't look as if we'll be able to provide food at start or finish, though I'm hoping hot drinks will be possible.
Groups of 6 riders at 5 minute intervals would give over a 100 participants between 700 to 830. A 5 minute interval  corresponds to well over a kilometre on the road.

Edit: putting faster riders in earlier groups will reduce coalescing
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 16 August, 2020, 07:59:27 pm
I keep seeing "post-covid", were still right in the middle of it.
Any post state is still a long way off.

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 16 August, 2020, 11:41:30 pm
Right in the middle?  Ummm ...

(https://www.cebm.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/florence-3.jpg)

Source: CEBM
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 17 August, 2020, 06:20:58 am
Deaths, clearly the peak was back in April. Measures to reduce transmission will still be in place next summer, so in terms of mask wearing etc still a long way to go. That is why it is important to find low risk ways of running events.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 17 August, 2020, 07:25:06 am
I keep seeing "post-covid", were still right in the middle of it.
Any post state is still a long way off.

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It should be obvious from Phil's post that he doesn't think we're out of this.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 17 August, 2020, 11:29:22 am
Deaths, clearly the peak was back in April.

... and they've been indistinguishable from any other year s for two and a half months.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 17 August, 2020, 11:52:48 am
Deaths, clearly the peak was back in April.

... and they've been indistinguishable from any other year s for two and a half months.
Yes, the deaths dropped because our behaviour changed, not because the virus has changed. Returning to our old behaviour and infections will rise nearly as quickly as before. Nearly but not quite as quickly because 6% of the population may be immune.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 17 August, 2020, 01:43:13 pm
Deaths, clearly the peak was back in April.

... and they've been indistinguishable from any other year s for two and a half months.
Yes, the deaths dropped because our behaviour changed, not because the virus has changed.

Evidence?

Quote
Returning to our old behaviour and infections will rise nearly as quickly as before. Nearly but not quite as quickly because 6% of the population may be immune.

Evidence?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 17 August, 2020, 01:45:43 pm
The USA for one.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 17 August, 2020, 02:49:30 pm
Deaths, clearly the peak was back in April.

... and they've been indistinguishable from any other year s for two and a half months.
Yes, the deaths dropped because our behaviour changed, not because the virus has changed.

Evidence?

Quote
Returning to our old behaviour and infections will rise nearly as quickly as before. Nearly but not quite as quickly because 6% of the population may be immune.

Evidence?
Based on the weekly deaths the basic reproduction number R0 changed from a little above 3 to somewhere around 1. The basic reproduction number is a feature of both the virus and our behaviour and the environment. There are I believe over 200 variants in the genome of sars-cov-2 but the measured R does not vary across these variants which are often distributed geographically. The only significant variations are related to effectiveness of therapeutics. Our behaviour clearly has changed. In scenarios where we have reverted back to similar to previous behaviour for example in pubs the basic R appears to be close to 3 again. The case fatality ratio has improved dramatically- there is much improved treatment. The 6% historical infection rate came from the Imperial college antibody testing results published last week.

If it is not the change in behaviour, social distancing, wearing masks etc, what has caused the reduction in reproduction number ?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: phil d on 17 August, 2020, 09:21:44 pm
I keep seeing "post-covid", were still right in the middle of it.
Any post state is still a long way off.

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It should be obvious from Phil's post that he doesn't think we're out of this.

Thank you Matt. Yes, of course we're not out of this, and won't be for a long time yet. Perhaps I should have more pedantically said "post-covid-outbreak"
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 17 August, 2020, 11:36:41 pm
It's a term I've seen in lots of places and it's pissing me off just as people acting normally are and getting their towns locked down as a result. 
The government, laws and public services are still set up for dealing with covid and for as long as that's the case "post" is miles wrong.
It's the same as saying we're in a post-HIV world.

Were only "post" when either it no longer poses a threat, or we've given up caring about the deaths and long term Conditions it causes.

One of the primary reasons deaths are down is due to the main carriers being in age groups with low risk of death because they're the ones going back to pubs and not giving a shit about distancing.

No one is currently publishing stats on how many people have long term Conditions post infection, that's something that the younger age groups are at high risk of having, there is however significant scale up of services to deal with life long respiratory, renal, kidney and neurological conditions.

The load on services in Aberdeen is such that people have been transfered to Edinburgh. Stuff like that doesn't come out in the stats because they still count as Grampian rather than Lothian.
What's interesting about that is ARI has Scotland's ECMO unit.

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 18 August, 2020, 12:16:41 am
It's a term I've seen in lots of places and it's pissing me off just as people acting normally are and getting their towns locked down as a result. 

It's them who are getting their towns locked down, is it?  How very convenient, you've got someone to blame. 

Is this like the beaches, parks, BLM protests and countless other episodes that the prophets of doom were saying would result in mass infection, but did no such thing. 

Have they learned?  Have you learned?  Has Davef learned?  Nope. 

Your idea of how this infection is spread is mostly wrong.  You might like to think you understand it but you don't - and neither does anyone else. 


Quote
Were [sic]only "post" when either it no longer poses a threat, or we've given up caring about the deaths and long term Conditions [sic] it causes.

Ooh look, you've now added "long term conditions" onto deaths.  Now that our death count is back to normal, we've got to find something else to worry about and to keep flagellating ourselves.  First it was hospitals getting overwhelmed, then it was anyone dying at all, now it's anyone getting post-viral fatigue.  You want to stop life because you won't accept that illness is a part of life.

Quote
One of the primary reasons deaths are down is due to the main carriers being in age groups with low risk of death because they're the ones going back to pubs and not giving a shit about distancing.
Long may they continue  O:-)  If you don't want to join them because you're too scared to accept a completely normal level of risk, please stay in this dusty and inconsequential corner of the internet and don't ever venture out.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 18 August, 2020, 03:24:31 am

Is this like the beaches, parks, BLM protests and countless other episodes that the prophets of doom were saying would result in mass infection, but did no such thing. 

Have they learned?  Have you learned?  Has Davef learned? 

Throughout most scientists have said the chance of infection outdoors is minimal.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 18 August, 2020, 08:01:15 am

Is this like the beaches, parks, BLM protests and countless other episodes that the prophets of doom were saying would result in mass infection, but did no such thing. 

Have they learned?  Have you learned?  Has Davef learned? 

Throughout most scientists have said the chance of infection outdoors is minimal.
Yep, the contact tracing results are showing this too, all the clusters here are linked to workplaces, pubs or house parties.

It was people Ignoring distancing in pubs that caused the Aberdeen cluster and lockdown.

For those late to the party this stuffs part of my day job.

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: simonp on 18 August, 2020, 11:19:28 pm
It's a term I've seen in lots of places and it's pissing me off just as people acting normally are and getting their towns locked down as a result. 

It's them who are getting their towns locked down, is it?  How very convenient, you've got someone to blame. 

Is this like the beaches, parks, BLM protests and countless other episodes that the prophets of doom were saying would result in mass infection, but did no such thing. 

Have they learned?  Have you learned?  Has Davef learned?  Nope. 

Your idea of how this infection is spread is mostly wrong.  You might like to think you understand it but you don't - and neither does anyone else. 


Quote
Were [sic]only "post" when either it no longer poses a threat, or we've given up caring about the deaths and long term Conditions [sic] it causes.

Ooh look, you've now added "long term conditions" onto deaths.  Now that our death count is back to normal, we've got to find something else to worry about and to keep flagellating ourselves.  First it was hospitals getting overwhelmed, then it was anyone dying at all, now it's anyone getting post-viral fatigue.  You want to stop life because you won't accept that illness is a part of life.

Quote
One of the primary reasons deaths are down is due to the main carriers being in age groups with low risk of death because they're the ones going back to pubs and not giving a shit about distancing.
Long may they continue  O:-)  If you don't want to join them because you're too scared to accept a completely normal level of risk, please stay in this dusty and inconsequential corner of the internet and don't ever venture out.

Outcomes of Cardiovascular Magnetic Resonance Imaging in Patients Recently Recovered From Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/cardiology/articlepdf/2768916/jamacardiology_puntmann_2020_oi_200057.pdf

60% including mild and asymptomatic cases had myocarditis. Average of patients 49. Didn’t make any difference how severe the illness was. So we do know that covid frequently damages the heart, even in relatively young and healthy people. Pretending it’s some sort of scare tactic is asinine.


Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 19 August, 2020, 12:52:39 am
It's a term I've seen in lots of places and it's pissing me off just as people acting normally are and getting their towns locked down as a result. 

It's them who are getting their towns locked down, is it?  How very convenient, you've got someone to blame. 

Is this like the beaches, parks, BLM protests and countless other episodes that the prophets of doom were saying would result in mass infection, but did no such thing. 

Have they learned?  Have you learned?  Has Davef learned?  Nope. 

Your idea of how this infection is spread is mostly wrong.  You might like to think you understand it but you don't - and neither does anyone else. 


Quote
Were [sic]only "post" when either it no longer poses a threat, or we've given up caring about the deaths and long term Conditions [sic] it causes.

Ooh look, you've now added "long term conditions" onto deaths.  Now that our death count is back to normal, we've got to find something else to worry about and to keep flagellating ourselves.  First it was hospitals getting overwhelmed, then it was anyone dying at all, now it's anyone getting post-viral fatigue.  You want to stop life because you won't accept that illness is a part of life.

Quote
One of the primary reasons deaths are down is due to the main carriers being in age groups with low risk of death because they're the ones going back to pubs and not giving a shit about distancing.
Long may they continue  O:-)  If you don't want to join them because you're too scared to accept a completely normal level of risk, please stay in this dusty and inconsequential corner of the internet and don't ever venture out.

Outcomes of Cardiovascular Magnetic Resonance Imaging in Patients Recently Recovered From Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/cardiology/articlepdf/2768916/jamacardiology_puntmann_2020_oi_200057.pdf

60% including mild and asymptomatic cases had myocarditis. Average of patients 49. Didn’t make any difference how severe the illness was. So we do know that covid frequently damages the heart, even in relatively young and healthy people. Pretending it’s some sort of scare tactic is asinine.

Average 49, quartiles 45-53. 

So if you're aged 50 and you get C19, you have some scarring on your heart a few months later. 

It's hardly bodies piling up in the streets, is it?  Expecting everyone to pause their lives because some patients who are a decade older than the UK's median age have got ongoing symptoms of unknown severity is a hideously selfish.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: simonp on 19 August, 2020, 01:30:40 am
It's a term I've seen in lots of places and it's pissing me off just as people acting normally are and getting their towns locked down as a result. 

It's them who are getting their towns locked down, is it?  How very convenient, you've got someone to blame. 

Is this like the beaches, parks, BLM protests and countless other episodes that the prophets of doom were saying would result in mass infection, but did no such thing. 

Have they learned?  Have you learned?  Has Davef learned?  Nope. 

Your idea of how this infection is spread is mostly wrong.  You might like to think you understand it but you don't - and neither does anyone else. 


Quote
Were [sic]only "post" when either it no longer poses a threat, or we've given up caring about the deaths and long term Conditions [sic] it causes.

Ooh look, you've now added "long term conditions" onto deaths.  Now that our death count is back to normal, we've got to find something else to worry about and to keep flagellating ourselves.  First it was hospitals getting overwhelmed, then it was anyone dying at all, now it's anyone getting post-viral fatigue.  You want to stop life because you won't accept that illness is a part of life.

Quote
One of the primary reasons deaths are down is due to the main carriers being in age groups with low risk of death because they're the ones going back to pubs and not giving a shit about distancing.
Long may they continue  O:-)  If you don't want to join them because you're too scared to accept a completely normal level of risk, please stay in this dusty and inconsequential corner of the internet and don't ever venture out.

Outcomes of Cardiovascular Magnetic Resonance Imaging in Patients Recently Recovered From Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/cardiology/articlepdf/2768916/jamacardiology_puntmann_2020_oi_200057.pdf

60% including mild and asymptomatic cases had myocarditis. Average of patients 49. Didn’t make any difference how severe the illness was. So we do know that covid frequently damages the heart, even in relatively young and healthy people. Pretending it’s some sort of scare tactic is asinine.

Average 49, quartiles 45-53. 

So if you're aged 50 and you get C19, you have some scarring on your heart a few months later. 

It's hardly bodies piling up in the streets, is it?  Expecting everyone to pause their lives because some patients who are a decade older than the UK's median age have got ongoing symptoms of unknown severity is a hideously selfish.

“Some”. 3-4 million people in the uk have had covid. 60% in this example have cardiomyopathy. This is not a few isolated cases. Even if by some magic the cardiomyopathy only happened to people over 40, you’re looking at more than a million people with heart involvement. By comparison seasonal flu does this very rarely.

This is in addition to scarring on the lungs also seen in asymptomatic cases. It’s in addition to the changes on brain MRIs seen in Chinese research. It’s the TrainerRoad user who hasn’t been able to train effectively for 5 months. 20 minutes light exercise and they’re in the ER.

And you have the gall to talk about selfishness on a thread about frivolous bike rides during a pandemic.

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Jaded on 19 August, 2020, 08:12:42 am
Exactly.
Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 19 August, 2020, 08:26:07 am

Average 49, quartiles 45-53. 

So if you're aged 50 and you get C19, you have some scarring on your heart a few months later. 

It's hardly bodies piling up in the streets, is it?  Expecting everyone to pause their lives because some patients who are a decade older than the UK's median age have got ongoing symptoms of unknown severity is a hideously selfish.

I can’t see anywhere within the paper the correlation between age and heart scarring which would be a fairly major thing to withhold so the implication was it was distributed evenly over the range so about 25% were 45 or under but I will check. If the 25% that get breathless doing normal household chores remain that way the lost QALYs will disproportionately burden the younger rather than the close to retirement. That said all the subjects were German so we are ok.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: pangolin on 19 August, 2020, 08:49:06 am
It's a term I've seen in lots of places and it's pissing me off just as people acting normally are and getting their towns locked down as a result. 

It's them who are getting their towns locked down, is it?  How very convenient, you've got someone to blame. 

Is this like the beaches, parks, BLM protests and countless other episodes that the prophets of doom were saying would result in mass infection, but did no such thing. 

Have they learned?  Have you learned?  Has Davef learned?  Nope. 

Your idea of how this infection is spread is mostly wrong.  You might like to think you understand it but you don't - and neither does anyone else. 


Quote
Were [sic]only "post" when either it no longer poses a threat, or we've given up caring about the deaths and long term Conditions [sic] it causes.

Ooh look, you've now added "long term conditions" onto deaths.  Now that our death count is back to normal, we've got to find something else to worry about and to keep flagellating ourselves.  First it was hospitals getting overwhelmed, then it was anyone dying at all, now it's anyone getting post-viral fatigue.  You want to stop life because you won't accept that illness is a part of life.

Quote
One of the primary reasons deaths are down is due to the main carriers being in age groups with low risk of death because they're the ones going back to pubs and not giving a shit about distancing.
Long may they continue  O:-)  If you don't want to join them because you're too scared to accept a completely normal level of risk, please stay in this dusty and inconsequential corner of the internet and don't ever venture out.

Outcomes of Cardiovascular Magnetic Resonance Imaging in Patients Recently Recovered From Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/cardiology/articlepdf/2768916/jamacardiology_puntmann_2020_oi_200057.pdf

60% including mild and asymptomatic cases had myocarditis. Average of patients 49. Didn’t make any difference how severe the illness was. So we do know that covid frequently damages the heart, even in relatively young and healthy people. Pretending it’s some sort of scare tactic is asinine.

Average 49, quartiles 45-53. 

So if you're aged 50 and you get C19, you have some scarring on your heart a few months later. 

It's hardly bodies piling up in the streets, is it?  Expecting everyone to pause their lives because some patients who are a decade older than the UK's median age have got ongoing symptoms of unknown severity is a hideously selfish.

“Some”. 3-4 million people in the uk have had covid. 60% in this example have cardiomyopathy. This is not a few isolated cases. Even if by some magic the cardiomyopathy only happened to people over 40, you’re looking at more than a million people with heart involvement. By comparison seasonal flu does this very rarely.

This is in addition to scarring on the lungs also seen in asymptomatic cases. It’s in addition to the changes on brain MRIs seen in Chinese research. It’s the TrainerRoad user who hasn’t been able to train effectively for 5 months. 20 minutes light exercise and they’re in the ER.

And you have the gall to talk about selfishness on a thread about frivolous bike rides during a pandemic.

Well said.

Edited to add: @Karla, there is a whole spectrum of behaviour between hiding under your bed sheets for the rest of your life and carrying on as if there is no pandemic. Pretending that everyone who doesn't do the latter automatically must be doing the former is disingenuous.

Continuing with life with some additional precautions is not 'flagellating ourselves' it is just sensible. We learn new stuff all the time and change our behaviour. Otherwise we would never have started wearing seat belts, or sterilising surgical equipment, or giving a toss about safety in the workplace.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 19 August, 2020, 08:58:56 am
It's a term I've seen in lots of places and it's pissing me off just as people acting normally are and getting their towns locked down as a result. 

It's them who are getting their towns locked down, is it?  How very convenient, you've got someone to blame. 

Is this like the beaches, parks, BLM protests and countless other episodes that the prophets of doom were saying would result in mass infection, but did no such thing. 

Have they learned?  Have you learned?  Has Davef learned?  Nope. 

Your idea of how this infection is spread is mostly wrong.  You might like to think you understand it but you don't - and neither does anyone else. 


Quote
Were [sic]only "post" when either it no longer poses a threat, or we've given up caring about the deaths and long term Conditions [sic] it causes.

Ooh look, you've now added "long term conditions" onto deaths.  Now that our death count is back to normal, we've got to find something else to worry about and to keep flagellating ourselves.  First it was hospitals getting overwhelmed, then it was anyone dying at all, now it's anyone getting post-viral fatigue.  You want to stop life because you won't accept that illness is a part of life.

Quote
One of the primary reasons deaths are down is due to the main carriers being in age groups with low risk of death because they're the ones going back to pubs and not giving a shit about distancing.
Long may they continue  O:-)  If you don't want to join them because you're too scared to accept a completely normal level of risk, please stay in this dusty and inconsequential corner of the internet and don't ever venture out.

Outcomes of Cardiovascular Magnetic Resonance Imaging in Patients Recently Recovered From Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/cardiology/articlepdf/2768916/jamacardiology_puntmann_2020_oi_200057.pdf

60% including mild and asymptomatic cases had myocarditis. Average of patients 49. Didn’t make any difference how severe the illness was. So we do know that covid frequently damages the heart, even in relatively young and healthy people. Pretending it’s some sort of scare tactic is asinine.

Average 49, quartiles 45-53. 

So if you're aged 50 and you get C19, you have some scarring on your heart a few months later. 

It's hardly bodies piling up in the streets, is it?  Expecting everyone to pause their lives because some patients who are a decade older than the UK's median age have got ongoing symptoms of unknown severity is a hideously selfish.

“Some”. 3-4 million people in the uk have had covid. 60% in this example have cardiomyopathy. This is not a few isolated cases. Even if by some magic the cardiomyopathy only happened to people over 40, you’re looking at more than a million people with heart involvement. By comparison seasonal flu does this very rarely.

This is in addition to scarring on the lungs also seen in asymptomatic cases. It’s in addition to the changes on brain MRIs seen in Chinese research. It’s the TrainerRoad user who hasn’t been able to train effectively for 5 months. 20 minutes light exercise and they’re in the ER.

And you have the gall to talk about selfishness on a thread about frivolous bike rides during a pandemic.
But that 60% is 69% of people in the trial  people who had been hospitalised, not 60% of all people infected.

Estimates of total cases far exceed recorded cases, as the majority don't need hospitalisation, and some never realise they even had it. I dont think its correct that 60% of 3million are now living with significant heart issues.

The numbers who have trouble exercising part covid are also very small.

This is not to say that we should not be taking steps to reduce transmission and suggestions that deaths are down so we are in the clear and measures are wrong and oppressive are equally extreme and definately less helpful.

As to calling frivolous bike rides selfish,  all the evidence is that transmission outdoors is rare,  so going for a solo bike ride is extremely low risk.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: TimC on 19 August, 2020, 09:27:33 am
This all seems to have got a bit personal and blown up out of proportion. As fars as I see it, if you want to go for a long bike ride in UK, there is nothing to stop you. If you feel that the risk is too high for your personal circumstances, that's fine and is your decision - though you shouldn't try to impose that judgement on others so long as the laws and guidelines permit what they're doing.

Audax UK may have been slower than some would like in reopening their processes, but their guidance is evolving and it's fair to assume that it will eventually return to pre-Covid conditions, though possibly with some additional precautionary measures. For those in England, there has pretty much been no legal limit on how far or how long you can ride a bike throughout this mess, though there were temporary limits on overnight accommodation and practical limits on being able to source supplies while out.

I'm not a big-ride fan, though I am a member of AUK. I've had some wry moments of amusement watching the passions displayed in this thread, but I think that the contortions people are going through to justify their positions are obscuring the basic point which is that you can ride if you want to (you always could, in England), and you now have a reasonable assumption that most Audax-stylee stuff will be returning fairly soon. Chill.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on 19 August, 2020, 09:30:08 am
As to calling frivolous bike rides selfish,  all the evidence is that transmission outdoors is rare,  so going for a solo bike ride is extremely low risk.

Doesn't feel like it actually, to a pedestrian on the pavement when an energetic cyclist rides by along the edge of the road.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: simonp on 19 August, 2020, 09:46:13 am

But that 60% is 69% of people in the trial  people who had been hospitalised, not 60% of all people infected.

If you're going to "correct" someone on the content of a paper, it would be a good idea to read it.

"Most patients recovered at home (n = 67), with severity of the acute COVID-19 illness ranging from asymptomatic (n = 18) to minor to moderate symptoms (n = 49)."

Only 33% required hospitalisation. This is probably higher than the proportion of people in the general population but the study found little difference in the parameters between mild and serious cases. All of these cases recovered within two weeks of initial diagnosis. Given the relatively small numbers more needs to be done to expand on this research, but given this is seen even in asymptomatic cases, it should be very concerning. Particularly to anyone who does strenuous exercise, that also can damage the heart, such as ultra endurance cycling.



Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 19 August, 2020, 11:23:27 am
(https://www.cebm.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/florence-3.jpg)
A map of Antarctica?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 19 August, 2020, 11:26:05 am
It is all a balance, covid kills people and ruins lives, so does economic hardship, so does obesity and so do mental health issues. Taking extreme positions is not the answer.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 19 August, 2020, 11:27:54 am
(https://www.cebm.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/florence-3.jpg)
A map of Antarctica?
Only if you believe in a spherical earth.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Jaded on 19 August, 2020, 05:40:31 pm

As to calling frivolous bike rides selfish,  all the evidence is that transmission outdoors is rare,  so going for a solo bike ride is extremely low risk.

As TimC says, going for a bike ride hasn't been an issue. The issues have been distance allowed from home for exercise, overnights, visiting facilities or shops, riding in a group.

But maybe some cannot do a long ride without Audax Points?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: postie on 19 August, 2020, 06:15:07 pm
I think we established sometime ago that some can't go for long bike ride with out points or some sort of award. :demon:
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 19 August, 2020, 07:52:11 pm

But maybe some cannot do a long ride without Audax Points?
You've raised this question many times during this pandemic.

It got me thinking:
Do you currently feel pressured to ride 200km along a pre-declared route? 🙁
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ben T on 19 August, 2020, 11:18:26 pm


Well said.

Edited to add: @Karla, there is a whole spectrum of behaviour between hiding under your bed sheets for the rest of your life and carrying on as if there is no pandemic. Pretending that everyone who doesn't do the latter automatically must be doing the former is disingenuous.

Continuing with life with some additional precautions is not 'flagellating ourselves' it is just sensible. We learn new stuff all the time and change our behaviour. Otherwise we would never have started wearing seat belts, or sterilising surgical equipment, or giving a toss about safety in the workplace.

Well your lot are a fine one to talk. You 'n bats. 
;)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 20 August, 2020, 12:10:34 pm

But maybe some cannot do a long ride without Audax Points?
You've raised this question many times during this pandemic.

It got me thinking:
Do you currently feel pressured to ride 200km along a pre-declared route? 🙁

I don't, but then I haven't ridden an Audax for years.

But by opening up the season some people who might not want to go out will feel pressured to go out to avoid "missing out" on their SR/whatever this season. RTTY has the luxury of being open ended, so it doesn't matter if people take their time to restart that, but the season specific awards like an SR (or awards like B25000) have to be timeboxed and those timescales will not suit everyone.

If you don't open up the season (beyond 200km rides) then everyone is missing out equally, and there's no decision to be made from the individuals.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 20 August, 2020, 12:16:58 pm
RRTY poses an interesting problem to ponder, once you restart, that's it restarted.
I know one Aberdeen rider has worked out how to do a 200 without leaving the lockdown area or the 5 miles fae whar he bides.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 22 August, 2020, 11:28:14 am

But maybe some cannot do a long ride without Audax Points?
You've raised this question many times during this pandemic.

It got me thinking:
Do you currently feel pressured to ride 200km along a pre-declared route? 🙁

I don't, but then I haven't ridden an Audax for years.

But by opening up the season some people who might not want to go out will feel pressured to go out to avoid "missing out" on their SR/whatever this season. RTTY has the luxury of being open ended, so it doesn't matter if people take their time to restart that, but the season specific awards like an SR (or awards like B25000) have to be timeboxed and those timescales will not suit everyone.

If you don't open up the season (beyond 200km rides) then everyone is missing out equally, and there's no decision to be made from the individuals.
OK. I see what you're saying. So do you think allowing 300k+ rides is a mistake?

Are these people who have been pressured into the long rides purely hypothetical, or can you name some examples?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 22 August, 2020, 11:46:16 am

But maybe some cannot do a long ride without Audax Points?
You've raised this question many times during this pandemic.

It got me thinking:
Do you currently feel pressured to ride 200km along a pre-declared route? 🙁

I don't, but then I haven't ridden an Audax for years.

But by opening up the season some people who might not want to go out will feel pressured to go out to avoid "missing out" on their SR/whatever this season. RTTY has the luxury of being open ended, so it doesn't matter if people take their time to restart that, but the season specific awards like an SR (or awards like B25000) have to be timeboxed and those timescales will not suit everyone.

If you don't open up the season (beyond 200km rides) then everyone is missing out equally, and there's no decision to be made from the individuals.
OK. I see what you're saying. So do you think allowing 300k+ rides is a mistake?

Possibly, yes, although I'm sure no-one really gives a shit about my personal opinion.

Are these people who have been pressured into the long rides purely hypothetical, or can you name some examples?

No I can't name any, but to turn it around are you 100% sure that not a single person will be pressured into doing a ride that they might not be comfortable with in order to keep their hopes of an SR/B25000/etc going?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 22 August, 2020, 11:51:32 am
OK. I see what you're saying. So do you think allowing 300k+ rides is a mistake?

Possibly, yes, although I'm sure no-one really gives a shit about my personal opinion.
The board made it clear early on that they're monitoring Audaxy social media to get a feel for member opinions; so yes, I'd say your views count for something.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 22 August, 2020, 11:58:34 am
OK. I see what you're saying. So do you think allowing 300k+ rides is a mistake?

Possibly, yes, although I'm sure no-one really gives a shit about my personal opinion.
The board made it clear early on that they're monitoring Audaxy social media to get a feel for member opinions; so yes, I'd say your views count for something.

I don't think they should have made that decision but I don't feel strongly enough for the decision to be reversed. Again, it's easy for me to have these opinions as I'm not riding Audaxes at the moment (and not going for any of the awards that are affected).

Anyway, I ducked out of this discussion last time I realised it wasn't really going anywhere, and I don't think it's going anywhere now so I'll put the board back on ignore.

I just wanted to make the point that some people might feel pressured into doing something they're not entirely comfortable with, because of the way that some AUK awards work, now that longer rides have opened up.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 23 August, 2020, 06:04:59 pm
(https://www.cebm.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/florence-3.jpg)
A map of Antarctica?

Probably the one used by DaveF for navigation without gps.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bianchi Boy on 23 August, 2020, 06:45:00 pm
The tone of this discussion makes me long for the calmness of the Brexit debate.

Sent from my H8216 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 25 August, 2020, 11:11:44 am
Scottish Cycling have updated their guidelines following their latest agreement with SportScotland.

30 people from any number of households in a group with no social distancing required while riding.
As soon as you get off the bike standard guidance returns so at start, finish café etc you're back to social distancing limitations

But......................... all groups have to have a COVID-19 Co-Ordinator (Whatever that is)

Wonder how/if AUK will respond to that.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LMT on 25 August, 2020, 12:09:02 pm
My kingdom for a sticker that means I rode 200km.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: TimC on 26 August, 2020, 05:39:40 am
Scottish Cycling have updated their guidelines following their latest agreement with SportScotland.

30 people from any number of households in a group with no social distancing required while riding.
As soon as you get off the bike standard guidance returns so at start, finish café etc you're back to social distancing limitations

But......................... all groups have to have a COVID-19 Co-Ordinator (Whatever that is)

Wonder how/if AUK will respond to that.

I wouldn’t expect much. British Cycling reissued their guidance yesterday, unchanged except for further restrictions for those areas with enhanced COVID measures. For most of us, it remains a maximum of six in a group.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 26 August, 2020, 01:25:30 pm
Turns out the no distancing and 30 people only appllies to BC registered clubs who can be bothered having a covid rep in every group. So aye useless for the rest of us.

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 27 August, 2020, 11:05:38 am
Scottish Cycling have updated their guidelines following their latest agreement with SportScotland.

30 people from any number of households in a group with no social distancing required while riding.
As soon as you get off the bike standard guidance returns so at start, finish café etc you're back to social distancing limitations

But......................... all groups have to have a COVID-19 Co-Ordinator (Whatever that is)

Wonder how/if AUK will respond to that.

"We are AUK."
I would imagine.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 27 August, 2020, 05:17:35 pm
Scottish Cycling have updated their guidelines following their latest agreement with SportScotland.

30 people from any number of households in a group with no social distancing required while riding.
As soon as you get off the bike standard guidance returns so at start, finish café etc you're back to social distancing limitations

But......................... all groups have to have a COVID-19 Co-Ordinator (Whatever that is)

Wonder how/if AUK will respond to that.

"We are AUK."
I would imagine.

Are Wales and/or NI still more restrictive?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Frank9755 on 30 August, 2020, 06:13:07 am
Perms appear to still be suspended in practice, at least the ones (600) that I have looked at are.  But I could submit the route as a DIY.

Seems a bit odd to do that.

Anyone know if perms up to 600 are likely to be unsuspended any time soon, or is it an individual organiser thing?

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: JonBuoy on 30 August, 2020, 07:43:50 am
There are 40 600k perms.  26 are still suspended and 14 are not.  Pick again!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on 30 August, 2020, 09:14:46 am
Perms appear to still be suspended in practice, at least the ones (600) that I have looked at are.  . . .

Anyone know if perms up to 600 are likely to be unsuspended any time soon, or is it an individual organiser thing?
The Permanents Secretary has, I believe, e-mailed all perm event organisers and invited them to reply saying they are content to have their events reopened (for entries). I surmise that those which are still suspended are those which the organiser judges not viable at present (some are abroad) and/or where the organiser has not replied, deliberately or otherwise.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Frank9755 on 30 August, 2020, 09:16:33 am
I could pick another but actually I don't want to do any of them.

I'm not an audax addict or point chaser so don't mind not getting validation, but would rather support the DIY organiser as first preference. 2nd preference would be a DIY, but riding unvalidated is fine if that is considered bad form.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Rupert on 30 August, 2020, 09:58:33 am
Quite a few of the shorter (200k) perms are still showing up as being suspended as well so I can only assume that the relevant organisers do not want the responsibility should anything untoward (Covid-wise) might happen.

Also very few calendar events opening up so far, but still early days probably.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Frank9755 on 30 August, 2020, 10:09:52 am
Perms appear to still be suspended in practice, at least the ones (600) that I have looked at are.  . . .

Anyone know if perms up to 600 are likely to be unsuspended any time soon, or is it an individual organiser thing?
The Permanents Secretary has, I believe, e-mailed all perm event organisers and invited them to reply saying they are content to have their events reopened (for entries). I surmise that those which are still suspended are those which the organiser judges not viable at present (some are abroad) and/or where the organiser has not replied, deliberately or otherwise.

Interesting, thanks, will message the organiser.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 30 August, 2020, 01:50:54 pm
Perms appear to still be suspended in practice, at least the ones (600) that I have looked at are.  . . .

Anyone know if perms up to 600 are likely to be unsuspended any time soon, or is it an individual organiser thing?
The Permanents Secretary has, I believe, e-mailed all perm event organisers and invited them to reply saying they are content to have their events reopened (for entries). I surmise that those which are still suspended are those which the organiser judges not viable at present (some are abroad) and/or where the organiser has not replied, deliberately or otherwise.

This was when only perms up to 200km had the option of opening, back in July. There has been no email subsequent to that.  So it may just be the perm organisers haven’t  noticed and  therefore requested their 600 re opens. 
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 30 August, 2020, 01:56:11 pm
Also very few calendar events opening up so far, but still early days probably.

Probably early days. This week I submitted Covid risk assessments for my September events. I suspect they will be unsuspended sometime next week.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Frank9755 on 30 August, 2020, 04:37:52 pm
I messaged the organiser.
He has asked for the perms to be reopened but apparently AUK has not  yet implemented it. So worth going direct if you want to do a perm.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: bhoot on 30 August, 2020, 04:42:56 pm
Perms appear to still be suspended in practice, at least the ones (600) that I have looked at are.  . . .

Anyone know if perms up to 600 are likely to be unsuspended any time soon, or is it an individual organiser thing?
The Permanents Secretary has, I believe, e-mailed all perm event organisers and invited them to reply saying they are content to have their events reopened (for entries). I surmise that those which are still suspended are those which the organiser judges not viable at present (some are abroad) and/or where the organiser has not replied, deliberately or otherwise.

This was when only perms up to 200km had the option of opening, back in July. There has been no email subsequent to that.  So it may just be the perm organisers haven’t  noticed and  therefore requested their 600 re opens.
I think John tried to email all the organisers with perms > 200km once the restriction was lifted - but it was just as he went off on holiday so it may not have successfully reached all, hence he also asked me to post this on the AUK forum about it:

I think perms organisers should have received a mail from John by now, but in case this hasn't reached you please note the following message from him:
"If you are a Permanent Event organiser with events up to 600km that you consider suitable to be reopened for entries please email John Ward at permanents@audax.uk and state which events you wish to have un-suspended"
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on 30 August, 2020, 05:45:21 pm
Perms appear to still be suspended in practice, at least the ones (600) that I have looked at are.  . . .

Anyone know if perms up to 600 are likely to be unsuspended any time soon, or is it an individual organiser thing?
The Permanents Secretary has, I believe, e-mailed all perm event organisers and invited them to reply saying they are content to have their events reopened (for entries). I surmise that those which are still suspended are those which the organiser judges not viable at present (some are abroad) and/or where the organiser has not replied, deliberately or otherwise.

This was when only perms up to 200km had the option of opening, back in July. There has been no email subsequent to that.  So it may just be the perm organisers haven’t  noticed and  therefore requested their 600 re opens.
You're right, Phil. As @bhoot said, I saw the mid-month post on the AudaxUK site and e-mailed John asking for my permanents (600s) to be un-suspended (17 Aug). Two hours later, he'd "done it".
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Frank9755 on 30 August, 2020, 07:25:55 pm
I've now got mine set up, via the organiser directly.
Just need to ride it now...
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mmmmartin on 30 August, 2020, 10:52:25 pm
Could set it up as a DIY by GPS?

I've nicked someone's perm route and set it up as a DIY by GPS and ridden it.

(Have sent the perm entry fee to the organiser who can never actually cashed it. You know who you are, El.)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: phil d on 31 August, 2020, 11:58:35 am
My Upper Thames 200 on Nov 7th is now "un-suspended", as are a few other 200k+ calendar events. It will be a bit different to "normal", especially at the start and finish, but we'll see how it goes.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Von Broad on 31 August, 2020, 12:05:50 pm
My Upper Thames 200 on Nov 7th is now "un-suspended", as are a few other 200k+ calendar events.

 :thumbsup:

It will be a bit different to "normal", especially at the start and finish, but we'll see how it goes.


There's a big advantage to being full value......plenty of natural soup social distancing at the end  :)

Hope to make it there.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: phil d on 31 August, 2020, 12:14:13 pm
Catering will be one of the casualties of the situation. The guidelines for organisers quite properly state that we should not encourage riders to linger at start or finish. We hope to be able to provide hot and cold drinks at both ends, possibly soup at the end, but no other food. I'll be interested to hear how other organisers are handling it.

I expect to be sending riders out over a period of up to an hour and a half (depending how many entries there are, which makes timing of each individual rider more complex. I have done some work on adding bar-codes to the brevet card labels, and reading them into a spreadsheet on a laptop from my phone, which seems to work well. Any other organisers who would like information on what I've come up with are welcome to contact me at phil@thamesvalleyaudax.co.uk
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Danu on 31 August, 2020, 03:06:45 pm
Could use a handicap system, similar to those used in time trials.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Frank9755 on 31 August, 2020, 04:10:15 pm
I expect to be sending riders out over a period of up to an hour and a half (depending how many entries there are, which makes timing of each individual rider more complex. I have done some work on adding bar-codes to the brevet card labels, and reading them into a spreadsheet on a laptop from my phone, which seems to work well. Any other organisers who would like information on what I've come up with are welcome to contact me at phil@thamesvalleyaudax.co.uk

For my club's reliability ride we have c.150 riders who leave in dribs and drabs, so a bit similar.  This year, (in Jan so pre-Covid) to time them I used a phone app called Racetimer, which logs when each person leaves if you input their number.  We had a second phone running the same app to log arrivals.  A quick sum in a spreadsheet then gave times.

We used to have a system with a barcode scanner reading a code on a card that each rider carried, but the app was simpler.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 01 September, 2020, 08:05:59 am
Are start rimes not pre assigned to prevent large numbers massing at the start?

In which case start time could be noted on the brevet, which does not get put out for collection until 5 minutes before the listed time.

Anyone who is late just loses time in the same way as normal.

Or is this too much hassle returning to put brevets out in batches? Seems easier than monitoring everyone leaving.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: bhoot on 01 September, 2020, 01:51:48 pm
The "ebrevet" phone app which is currently being tested would sort out the issue of different rider start times very neatly as it can be used in "perm mode" so that when someone starts their actual start time would be used to calculate their finish opening/closing times plus all intermediate control times, so no need for any maths etc. It's only for Android as yet (any Apple developers out there?) and it's not officially approved but should be piloted for some perms very soon.

Some organisers who have been testing are interested in using it for their calendar events, ether just on a trial basis alongside other PoP, but ideally as an accepted PoP (at least for a pilot to avoid some of the Covid secure aspects of other PoP and also for the easy flexibility in start times).

More info here  (http://audax.uk/news/e-brevet/) although it's moved on a bit since those screen shots were taken - it now shows control opening and closing times on the main screen for easy reference, and also the "not there yet" message is modified to give you an idea where the control is relative to your current position (so you know whether you are indeed "not there yet" or have actually gone too far!)
Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 01 September, 2020, 02:16:59 pm
To produce an iPhone app is has to be approved by apple and it is a bit of a pain. I would suggest a mobile friendly web app would be an alternative approach though with the disadvantage of needing a data connection.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 01 September, 2020, 02:28:12 pm
At the current rate apple are going at, sating tough shit to Apple users is probably the easiest option...

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 01 September, 2020, 02:35:31 pm
At the current rate apple are going at, sating tough shit to Apple users is probably the easiest option...

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
... apple market cap hit $1 trn this month, I think they are doing ok.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: simonp on 01 September, 2020, 02:51:46 pm
At the current rate apple are going at, sating tough shit to Apple users is probably the easiest option...

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
... apple market cap hit $1 trn this month, I think they are doing ok.

$2 trillion.

Not a tech bubble, oh no.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 01 September, 2020, 02:54:22 pm
At the current rate apple are going at, sating tough shit to Apple users is probably the easiest option...

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
... apple market cap hit $1 trn this month, I think they are doing ok.
See their spat with EPIC.



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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on 01 September, 2020, 03:10:24 pm
See their spat with EPIC.

Can you explain how Epic deliberately breaking App Store rules and inevitably being thrown out has any impact on the audax app?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: TimC on 01 September, 2020, 03:26:25 pm
At the current rate apple are going at, sating tough shit to Apple users is probably the easiest option...

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... apple market cap hit $1 trn this month, I think they are doing ok.
See their spat with EPIC.



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I think some anti-Apple prejudice is at work here. Apple didn't have a 'spat' with EPIC - it was the other way around. And EPIC lost, not surprisingly. That will have no effect on Apple's business, but it will on EPIC's. None of that will have any relevance to any freeware app developed to help Audaxers do their thing.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 01 September, 2020, 03:33:47 pm
It's far from over, apples actions prove they're running a closed shop, Microsoft got hit heavily for much less.

Apple development of the unreal engine being stopped, or the engine being pulled remain a potential outcome, as if apple win then epic can use that to force all developers using unreal to use epics storefront.

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: TimC on 01 September, 2020, 03:42:12 pm
Still not seeing any relevance to an Audax app. And EPIC v Apple... wanna bet who wins?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 01 September, 2020, 05:16:27 pm
We are going off track here, but as far as I can see apple apps have to be purchased from applestore and apple take a cut.

Epic set up their own store so that people can buy games through that and epic take a cut.

epic wanted a free app on the apple App Store to enable purchasing of products thru epics store front so epic gets the cut rather than apple. Apple said no.

I am sure they will come to some revenue sharing agreement in due course.

The average age of epics customer base is 9
The average age of audax U.K. members is 78

I feel there is little overlap.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 02 September, 2020, 11:27:59 am
There's implications in relation to the hurdles for creating iPhone apps that are linked to my original suggestion to just tell apple users to buy an open ecosystem rsther than pander to apples monopolisation of their hardware.
Or as I'd normally term it 'tell apple to ram it"

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on 02 September, 2020, 05:27:52 pm
I agree with @Davef 's implication: the interesting topic of a 'proof of passage' app (E-brevet rich) with the android/apple challenge deserves a thread of its own.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: bhoot on 03 September, 2020, 12:03:29 am
To make things easier as events start up again, we have added a new filter to both the calendar and permanent events lists - these now by default only show you events you can enter (ie not the cancelled/suspended events). If you do want to see all events then just untick the box. The default time period for calendar events has also been increased to be 28 days, starting from the current date, but you can of course change either the from date or the number of days.

On the topic of the lists and the search facilities - if you haven't already discovered them you can search by name of event, start location or organiser in the text box, and now as well as being able to search by distance from a specific postcode you can search by distance from some towns and cities dotted around the UK - to save you needing to find a postcode if you are say going on holiday to an area and want to find something in the right region. You can also choose a map view instead of a list.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grimpeur du sudocrem on 03 September, 2020, 07:44:42 am
To make things easier as events start up again, we have added a new filter to both the calendar and permanent events lists - these now by default only show you events you can enter (ie not the cancelled/suspended events). If you do want to see all events then just untick the box. The default time period for calendar events has also been increased to be 28 days, starting from the current date, but you can of course change either the from date or the number of days.

Good stuff - I was wishing for exactly this filter a few days ago.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: tonyh on 03 September, 2020, 08:28:20 am
Thanks bhoot, that's VERY good!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: phil d on 03 September, 2020, 09:50:41 pm
Are start rimes not pre assigned to prevent large numbers massing at the start?

In which case start time could be noted on the brevet, which does not get put out for collection until 5 minutes before the listed time.

Anyone who is late just loses time in the same way as normal.

Or is this too much hassle returning to put brevets out in batches? Seems easier than monitoring everyone leaving.

Yes, I could do it that way, but I suspect it will create a lot of interface between riders and me (or helpers) that I'd rather avoid. I want to provide as much flexibility as I can. Scanning the card (through the plastic bag) on my phone and having the result input automatically into my spreadsheet as riders leave (and arrive back) seems simplest.

Can someone remind me the current guidance on numbers per group (in England)? I cannot find it in the AUK documentation. It'll probably change by Nov 7th anyway!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 04 September, 2020, 12:40:43 am
You don't need an app to do contactless controls, although it does probably make things easier.

If the Controller at the start takes a note of the time the rider leaves at, and the rider takes a note of the time they leave at, and say that the earliest counts, then repeat at any manned controls, and the finish, you've got double recording of the critical times.

Its how the timing systems for rallying work, even with all the fancy timing systems that make life easier, the time card that the navigator carries is actually considered the primary record for disputes, if a navigator loses it, DNF.

When my dad saw a brevet card he got the concept instantly.

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Manotea on 04 September, 2020, 06:33:53 am
Audax controls are generally not manned, and that will increasingly be the case now.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Philip Whiteman on 04 September, 2020, 08:49:47 am
I have planned and submitted three event proposals to run before Christmas.  The events proposed use the following system and will of course follow AUK's guidance.

- X rated with open-air car park start
- PPE for single controller at start of day.
- Use of electronic proofs of passage including e-brevet, GPS tracklogs, selfies. 
- Paper based brevet cards discouraged (I would like to forbid use of these)
- Free controls only with optional venues for purchasing food etc
- Distributed start period with a record of individual start times
- Overall field limited to 30 with riding groups restricted to six only
- Reserve lists for late  entrants in case of pre-notified DNS.

Dates are to be confirmed but the proposed events are as follows:

1.  October: Montgomery Madness.  200km Bewdley - Ludlow - Knighton - Church Stretton - Bewdley via Bromyard and Montgomery. 3.5AAA
2.  November: Begwyns, Books and Stone.  200km.  Stourport - Kington - Hay - Leominster - Stourport via the Begwyns and Arthur's Stones. 3.5AAA
3.  December: Salt and Cotswold. 200km.  Droitwich - Shipston on Stour - Witney - Tewkesbury - Droitwich. 

Normally I don't operate so many events with such short intervals but X rating means that they are easy to operate and fill an essential gap created by other organisers unable to deliver their events due to logistics, Covid compliance, etc ,etc.

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 05 September, 2020, 08:14:13 am
You don't need an app to do contactless controls, although it does probably make things easier.

If the Controller at the start takes a note of the time the rider leaves at, and the rider takes a note of the time they leave at, and say that the earliest counts, then repeat at any manned controls, and the finish, you've got double recording of the critical times.

Its how the timing systems for rallying work, even with all the fancy timing systems that make life easier, the time card that the navigator carries is actually considered the primary record for disputes, if a navigator loses it, DNF.

When my dad saw a brevet card he got the concept instantly.
And it's basically how PBP used to work when you Q-ed up to start, so couldn't know your start-time in advance.

(It was a slight hassle having to mentally re-calc the cutoffs during the event, but it wormed into your head after a while! )
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 05 September, 2020, 07:27:54 pm
And it's basically how PBP used to work when you Q-ed up to start, so couldn't know your start-time in advance.

(It was a slight hassle having to mentally re-calc the cutoffs during the event, but it wormed into your head after a while! )

Ended up having to do that last year anyway, even though I had them printed out, I erm... managed to lose the bit of paper within the neck wallet.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 05 September, 2020, 07:30:46 pm
Indeed the printed times in PBP brevets are wrong for the majority.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: simonp on 08 September, 2020, 10:52:54 pm
Gathering of more than 6 banned from Monday in England. I assume no auk calendar events then?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 09 September, 2020, 12:33:25 am
Caveat "organised sporting events", which I guess won't apply to AUK type activities.

Is it time for AUK to put all recognised events to bed until we're out of this completely? (Although I guess that reopens the question of what defines "completely"?)

[EDIT] AUK Secretary elsewhere on the AUK forum this evening (11.24pm):-

Quote
We need to see the full legislation and guidance that is due to be published with the pending announcement on social gatherings in England but from the information released so far, we should be able to continue with calendar events and permanents in England.

We adopted the “gold standard” approach for calendar events by following the organised team sports path (as trailed by British Cycling) which was in line with the direct recommendation we received from the DCMS.  I fully expect that to be one of the exemptions and that will apply to calendar events.

Permanent rides will remain within the legal limits anyway.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on 09 September, 2020, 10:46:43 am
Am monitoring events closely in regards to the Cambrian Series permanents - as one of them goes quite close to Caerphilly county.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Delph Cyclist on 09 September, 2020, 09:34:09 pm

The average age of audax U.K. members is 78


You mean, I'm still below average age for Audax UK members?  Or did you just make that figure up?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Kim on 09 September, 2020, 11:21:08 pm
Sport England have released this guidance (basically organised sport/leisure operating under a covid-secure risk assessment can continue) https://www.sportengland.org/how-we-can-help/coronavirus

Tentatively good news in my BHPC capacity, but I don't think it applies to AUK.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 10 September, 2020, 07:13:33 am
Is it time for AUK to put all recognised events to bed until we're out of this completely? (Although I guess that reopens the question of what defines "completely"?)


I would whole-heartedly say no, as I support this view from the board a few days ago:

Quote from: AUK Secretary on September 07, 2020, 09:42:19 AM
The guidance we have published has been slightly future-proofed in so far as it refers to current guidance rather than absolute numbers.  The guidance is there but it is really up to organisers and, ultimately, individuals to understand and comply with national and local rules - as was the case pre-pandemic.
Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 10 September, 2020, 07:15:47 am

The average age of audax U.K. members is 78


You mean, I'm still below average age for Audax UK members?  Or did you just make that figure up?
I am sure it is accurate. On rereading it I can see how people might assume the units were Earth years. The units were HP (hectopbps) defined as 100 times the average pbp vedette finishing time.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on 28 September, 2020, 10:18:12 am
Welsh Covid-19 restrictions include all unnecessary travel in and out of council areas where there is a local lockdown.  Permanent cycle rides would not be considered as necessary travel.  At the moment the following events are subject to such restrictions:  Cambrian 1F, 1G, 1K, 2C, 3B,  4B, 4D, 4F, 6A, 8A, 10A.  The situation is changing regularly, and it is likely that more routes will be impacted by the restrictions.  I will not be able to validate a ride that has broken lockdown restrictions.  I would suggest that you defer your events until local lockdowns have been removed.  I will honour all brevet cards where a ride has been deferred.

Apologies.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on 02 October, 2020, 02:57:56 pm
There are now only 6 councils in Wales that do not have a local lockdown in place.  This means that the only Cambrian Permanents that you can do without breaking the restrictions in place are:  Cambrian 1A,1B, 1C, 1E, 1H, 1J, 2C, 2D, 2E (with a variation of route), 2H, 2J, 3B, and 3C.  I will not be able to validate rides for any other routes.  Events are still open for entries and rides can be ridden at a later date.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Delph Cyclist on 05 October, 2020, 11:48:42 am
A good number of the Wigley Perms are not currently permitted as they would mean entering Covid-restricted areas of Wales.

The SeeDee 200 and Holt 200 are still permitted as the rider can turn back at the Dee Bridge in Farndon without going into Wales at Holt. 

The Mere 200 is only possible if riders add some considerable extra distances by remaining in England to get from Malpas (Cheshire) to Ellesmere (Shropshire).  I am going to assume that the B5063 is entirely English.

I still have plenty of other Perms still ride-able provided the usual precautions are taken, such as wearing a mask where necessary.  I am accepting GPX from those rides who want to avoid getting a till receipt.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on 19 October, 2020, 08:59:27 pm
The Cambrian Series permanents will be off limits from 23 October to 9 November, as riding them will be breaking the Covid-19 restrictions in Wales.  Any brevets issued will remain valid for riding once it is legally possible to do so again.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: GdS on 31 October, 2020, 08:34:50 pm
Bit of a wooly No 10 press conference to say the least but this is what has been gleaned by some reporters;

While elite sport will continue as normal, exercise for everyone else will be limited to unlimited periods outdoors – either with people from their own households, or on a one-to-one basis with a person from another household.

does this mean AUK calendar events between 5.11 and 2.12 are cancelled?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mmmmartin on 31 October, 2020, 09:45:23 pm
Calendar events are a decision for the Grown Ups, and I'm so pleased that is their decision not mine.
But perms are OK, from my reading of the rulz.
So a GdS perm will be fine, but only from my reading of the govt statement. Valuation by GPX track as usual so no receipts. Take sarnies and water.
But seems it can be done.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: bairn again on 31 October, 2020, 10:32:08 pm
Bit of a wooly No 10 press conference to say the least but this is what has been gleaned by some reporters;

While elite sport will continue as normal, exercise for everyone else will be limited to unlimited periods outdoors – either with people from their own households, or on a one-to-one basis with a person from another household.

does this mean AUK calendar events between 5.11 and 2.12 are cancelled?
In England yes possibly.   No reason why somebody in Scotlands Tier 1 shouldnt ride an audax though. 
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: IanDG on 31 October, 2020, 10:47:49 pm
Bit of a wooly No 10 press conference to say the least but this is what has been gleaned by some reporters;

While elite sport will continue as normal, exercise for everyone else will be limited to unlimited periods outdoors – either with people from their own households, or on a one-to-one basis with a person from another household.

does this mean AUK calendar events between 5.11 and 2.12 are cancelled?
In England yes possibly.   No reason why somebody in Scotlands Tier 1 shouldnt ride an audax though. 

Anything to stop someone in tier 3 from doing a DIY if the rote is within their own health board area?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: bairn again on 31 October, 2020, 10:51:09 pm
Bit of a wooly No 10 press conference to say the least but this is what has been gleaned by some reporters;

While elite sport will continue as normal, exercise for everyone else will be limited to unlimited periods outdoors – either with people from their own households, or on a one-to-one basis with a person from another household.

does this mean AUK calendar events between 5.11 and 2.12 are cancelled?
In England yes possibly.   No reason why somebody in Scotlands Tier 1 shouldnt ride an audax though. 

Anything to stop someone in tier 3 from doing a DIY if the rote is within their own health board area?
no, but i referenced tier 1 as the canvas is wider. 
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Jaded on 31 October, 2020, 10:56:11 pm
Bit of a wooly No 10 press conference to say the least but this is what has been gleaned by some reporters;

While elite sport will continue as normal, exercise for everyone else will be limited to unlimited periods outdoors – either with people from their own households, or on a one-to-one basis with a person from another household.

does this mean AUK calendar events between 5.11 and 2.12 are cancelled?
In England yes possibly.   No reason why somebody in Scotlands Tier 1 shouldnt ride an audax though.

Oooh, I could do one.
If I had a bike here...
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: IanDG on 31 October, 2020, 10:59:03 pm
Bit of a wooly No 10 press conference to say the least but this is what has been gleaned by some reporters;

While elite sport will continue as normal, exercise for everyone else will be limited to unlimited periods outdoors – either with people from their own households, or on a one-to-one basis with a person from another household.

does this mean AUK calendar events between 5.11 and 2.12 are cancelled?
In England yes possibly.   No reason why somebody in Scotlands Tier 1 shouldnt ride an audax though. 

Anything to stop someone in tier 3 from doing a DIY if the rote is within their own health board area?
no, but i referenced tier 1 as the canvas is wider. 

 :thumbsup:

It may be easier in some areas though. Highlands and Islands, Dumfries and Galloway and the Borders have more roads to play with than some areas.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 31 October, 2020, 11:02:10 pm
Levels 0,1 and 2 are only restricted to not stopping in levels 3 or 4,given the level 3 and 4 areas with the exception of Highland Stirling are all urban its not too difficult if you're allowed out

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: 3peaker on 01 November, 2020, 01:28:42 am
Obviously, our Committee will need to digest and determine how we proceed. We have been following the wider cycling protocol; in England, it seems that Calendars could be awkward under the new rules for 4 weeks, whereas Perms could proceed under external exercise Rules. And then we have the wider AUK population to think about. 4 days of grace!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 01 November, 2020, 07:19:48 am
whereas Perms could proceed under external exercise Rules.

Wishful thinking. I don't think there is any alternative to a total ban on validations during lockdown. Remember "stay at home" and "don't travel".
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: JonBuoy on 01 November, 2020, 07:29:34 am
whereas Perms could proceed under external exercise Rules.

Wishful thinking. I don't think there is any alternative to a total ban on validations during lockdown. Remember "stay at home" and "don't travel".

I do remember those but for the imminent English 'lockdown' I also read:

Quote
This means you must not leave or be outside of your home except for specific purposes. These include:

...to exercise outdoors or visit an outdoor public place - with the people you live with, with your support bubble or, when on your own, with 1 person from another household.

I can work with that.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: phantasmagoriana on 01 November, 2020, 09:27:16 am
Bit of a wooly No 10 press conference to say the least but this is what has been gleaned by some reporters;

While elite sport will continue as normal, exercise for everyone else will be limited to unlimited periods outdoors – either with people from their own households, or on a one-to-one basis with a person from another household.

does this mean AUK calendar events between 5.11 and 2.12 are cancelled?
In England yes possibly.   No reason why somebody in Scotlands Tier 1 shouldnt ride an audax though. 

Anything to stop someone in tier 3 from doing a DIY if the rote is within their own health board area?

As of tomorrow, it's local authority areas rather than health board areas.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 01 November, 2020, 11:01:32 am
Bit of a wooly No 10 press conference to say the least but this is what has been gleaned by some reporters;

While elite sport will continue as normal, exercise for everyone else will be limited to unlimited periods outdoors – either with people from their own households, or on a one-to-one basis with a person from another household.

does this mean AUK calendar events between 5.11 and 2.12 are cancelled?
In England yes possibly.   No reason why somebody in Scotlands Tier 1 shouldnt ride an audax though. 

Anything to stop someone in tier 3 from doing a DIY if the rote is within their own health board area?

As of tomorrow, it's local authority areas rather than health board areas.
Thats fine for IanDG though if he goes to level 3 from 1, D&G is both a council area and a health board area!

There may be some slight border differences due to practical management reasons but the other board/councils that match are:
Borders
Orkney
Shetland
Western isles
Fife

All "small" boards/councils, but with plenty space to get a few distances in.



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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: bairn again on 01 November, 2020, 11:02:55 am
As I plan to ride a DIY event next weekend Ive just looked at the rules as per the Scottish Govt announcement on 23 October.
 https://www.gov.scot/publications/covid-19-scotlands-strategic-framework/ 

Im in a Level 3 area.  It says "No non-essential travel into or out of the level 3 area.  Exemptions for essential travel for work, education, shopping health
etc; outdoor exercise; weddings and funerals; shared parenting, and transit through restricted areas"


Similar provisions apply to all other levels vis a vis transit in and out.

As there is a specific travel exemption for outdoor exercise, a DIY audax including both (a) travel beyond my own health board area and (b) into areas that are Levels 0,1,2 or 4 is permitted - as things stand.     
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 01 November, 2020, 11:06:09 am
whereas Perms could proceed under external exercise Rules.

Wishful thinking. I don't think there is any alternative to a total ban on validations during lockdown. Remember "stay at home" and "don't travel".

I do remember those but for the imminent English 'lockdown' I also read:

Quote
This means you must not leave or be outside of your home except for specific purposes. These include:

...to exercise outdoors or visit an outdoor public place - with the people you live with, with your support bubble or, when on your own, with 1 person from another household.

I can work with that.

As I said, wishful thinking.. I would be very surprised (and somewhat disappointed) if AUK did go ahead allowing validations during these 4 weeks... it would show a willingness to look for loopholes, rather being part of the solution, which would be out of character. I do not wish to belong to an organisation that looks for loopholes for selfish purposes.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 01 November, 2020, 11:09:38 am
General Validations haven't been paused for the Welsh or Northern Irish lockdowns though so the precedence is set.
The only thing I read about no validation in Wales was from CET saying which of his perms were off, but then im not in Wales and don't think there was a general announcement (if there was I didn't see the email)

There is no legally enforceable travel restrictions in Scotland (and the guide allows exercise based travel) , and Wales is reopening mid November.

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 01 November, 2020, 11:13:30 am
As I plan to ride a DIY event next weekend Ive just looked at the rules as per the Scottish Govt announcement on 23 October.
 https://www.gov.scot/publications/covid-19-scotlands-strategic-framework/ 

Im in a Level 3 area.  It says "No non-essential travel into or out of the level 3 area.  Exemptions for essential travel for work, education, shopping health
etc; outdoor exercise; weddings and funerals; shared parenting, and transit through restricted areas"


Similar provisions apply to all other levels vis a vis transit in and out.

As there is a specific travel exemption for outdoor exercise, a DIY audax including both (a) travel beyond my own health board area and (b) into areas that are Levels 0,1,2 or 4 is permitted - as things stand.   
Something else that's critical up here is the travel restrictions are currently only guidance not law.
If you drove to the horn for a bacon butty the good people of the grange* could do little more than tut in your general direction.

* it'd probably be all L3 dundonians anyway.

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: phantasmagoriana on 01 November, 2020, 11:38:11 am
As I plan to ride a DIY event next weekend Ive just looked at the rules as per the Scottish Govt announcement on 23 October.
 https://www.gov.scot/publications/covid-19-scotlands-strategic-framework/ 

Im in a Level 3 area.  It says "No non-essential travel into or out of the level 3 area.  Exemptions for essential travel for work, education, shopping health
etc; outdoor exercise; weddings and funerals; shared parenting, and transit through restricted areas"


Similar provisions apply to all other levels vis a vis transit in and out.

As there is a specific travel exemption for outdoor exercise, a DIY audax including both (a) travel beyond my own health board area and (b) into areas that are Levels 0,1,2 or 4 is permitted - as things stand.   
Something else that's critical up here is the travel restrictions are currently only guidance not law.
If you drove to the horn for a bacon butty the good people of the grange* could do little more than tut in your general direction.

* it'd probably be all L3 dundonians anyway.

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Ah, that's good to know. Being in a small (geographically) local authority area means that even some of my walking/running routes take me outside the boundary!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mmmmartin on 01 November, 2020, 12:05:00 pm
a willingness to look for loopholes, rather being part of the solution, which would be out of character. I do not wish to belong to an organisation that looks for loopholes for selfish purposes.
That's not true: the government has specifically allowed outdoor exercise, it has gone out of its way to specify that. So we are allowed to go for a run, for a bike ride, for a walk in the country. That is specifically allowed, no question and it's obvious that the government has deliberately gone out of its way to highlight this issue.
Now - I'd be the first to agree that the phrase "exercise" means different things to different people. For some, a bike is 20 minutes and for others it's several hours. Remember that it's going to just about impossible to interact with other human beings while you're out on the bike, almost everything will be shut. So the logic is that riding a perm, and having it validated by Auk is perfectly OK.

So, no, following government guidance is not "looking for loopholes" - it's following government guidance.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Fennec on 01 November, 2020, 12:29:53 pm
I have an interest in running.

Mass running events have of course been cancelled. A lot of them have been replaced by ‘virtual’ events, where you run the equivalent distance solo from your home (obeying local restrictions), do some sort of validation (either self validate or submit a GPS track) and receive your medal or whatever through the post.

This has gone on all the way through the previous lockdown and beyond without anyone arguing that it’s dangerous or selfish, or muttering about ‘loopholes’.

I don’t really think there’s any essential difference between a ‘virtual’ running event and a perm/DIY Audax. As long as people obey rules on group size etc I can’t think what the problem would be.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 01 November, 2020, 12:41:45 pm
I don’t really think there’s any essential difference between a ‘virtual’ running event and a perm/DIY Audax. As long as people obey rules on group size etc I can’t think what the problem would be.

Distance and time are the main differences.

You can go a lot further from your home on an Audax (for the sake of this argument I'm assuming 200km or longer Audaxes) than you can on a run so you'll be going in to different areas further afield on an Audax than on a run.

You'll also be out for much longer on an Audax than on a run. This brings into question things like feeding and going to the toilet.

They're the main differences between a virtual running event and an Audax.

[EDIT] Nothing on the AUK forum yet, but my guess is that they'll suspend validation for the period of the lockdown. Not doing so would be unfair (IMHO) to those who are looking to comply with the spirit of lockdown rather than looking for ways to read the regulations in such a way to allow them to continue their hobby that is built on top of exercise.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Kim on 01 November, 2020, 12:46:56 pm
A better comparison is the difference between an Audax and a Bike Ride.  Perhaps you're aiming for some mileage goal, or trying to improve your fitness or colouring in tiles on a map or something.  Or maybe not, and you just like riding your bike.

I'd suggest the key issue is whether that mile-eating or tile-bagging or AUK validation is encouraging you to do things you wouldn't otherwise.  And assuming it is, are they risky?

On the gripping hand, If AUK validation is problematic, so is Strava.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on 01 November, 2020, 12:55:01 pm
Going out for a long bike ride where you encounter no other humans is fine; encouraging going out on a long bike ride is fine. Going into shops etc (either for supplies or validation) is the only thing I see that's problematic.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: TimC on 01 November, 2020, 12:59:05 pm
Going out for a long bike ride where you encounter no other humans is fine; encouraging going out on a long bike ride is fine. Going into shops etc (either for supplies or validation) is the only thing I see that's problematic.

I will continue to ride my bike to the shops to buy my daily provisions. The fact that I will do only 10km there and back is irrelevant. Going to a shop that sells essential goods is perfectly reasonable.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 01 November, 2020, 01:02:14 pm
[EDIT] Nothing on the AUK forum yet, but my guess is that they'll suspend validation for the period of the lockdown. Not doing so would be unfair (IMHO) to those who are looking to comply with the spirit of lockdown rather than looking for ways to read the regulations in such a way to allow them to continue their hobby that is built on top of exercise.

Wales has been in lockdown, validation continued in England and Scotland.

Going out for a long bike ride where you encounter no other humans is fine; encouraging going out on a long bike ride is fine. Going into shops etc (either for supplies or validation) is the only thing I see that's problematic.

Whether or not an Audax can fit your lockdown restrictions is entirley down to what the limitations are.
If the Scottish regional restrictions became a legal requirement for L3/4 areas and outdoor exercise was removed (The NGBs did a lot of lobbying to get that exception included, and in the worst case scenario it might need to be removed due to lack of emergency service capacity) most people would probably still be able to knock up a 200; IroIroMono worked one out entirley in Aberdeen during Aberdeens extended lockdown (another lockdown)


English exceptionalism from the UK Government in the case of Furlough being extended and upped to 80% is already causing them trouble.
It's the sort of trouble AUK surely don't want to be inviting.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: sojournermike on 01 November, 2020, 01:04:32 pm
Calendar events are a decision for the Grown Ups, and I'm so pleased that is their decision not mine.
But perms are OK, from my reading of the rulz.
So a GdS perm will be fine, but only from my reading of the govt statement. Valuation by GPX track as usual so no receipts. Take sarnies and water.
But seems it can be done.

Provided you rode to the start of course
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: sojournermike on 01 November, 2020, 01:09:37 pm
whereas Perms could proceed under external exercise Rules.

Wishful thinking. I don't think there is any alternative to a total ban on validations during lockdown. Remember "stay at home" and "don't travel".

I do remember those but for the imminent English 'lockdown' I also read:

Quote
This means you must not leave or be outside of your home except for specific purposes. These include:

...to exercise outdoors or visit an outdoor public place - with the people you live with, with your support bubble or, when on your own, with 1 person from another household.

I can work with that.

As I said, wishful thinking.. I would be very surprised (and somewhat disappointed) if AUK did go ahead allowing validations during these 4 weeks... it would show a willingness to look for loopholes, rather being part of the solution, which would be out of character. I do not wish to belong to an organisation that looks for loopholes for selfish purposes.

This is a very fair and valid point. We are clearly allowed to cycle or run from our own homes for as long as we like. We don’t need validation to exercise or enjoy our sport, so we can be seen to be a part of the solution.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on 01 November, 2020, 01:14:27 pm
I will continue to ride my bike to the shops to buy my daily provisions. The fact that I will do only 10km there and back is irrelevant. Going to a shop that sells essential goods is perfectly reasonable.

We're talking about audaxing specifically.

The new rules for England (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-national-restrictions-from-5-november) say:
Quote
shopping for basic necessities, for example food and medicine, which should be as infrequent as possible
So riding 100 km from home and going into a shop to but a Twix either because you're hungry or because you need a receipt, seems incompatible with the guidelines, particularly the last bit.

(riding 100 km and buying a cupboard full of groceries for the week seems fine. Ditto clicking-and-collecting your Twix, or buying a takeaway)

Provided you rode to the start of course

You're allowed to travel to "visit an outdoor public place". I'd say a perm course counts.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 01 November, 2020, 01:15:15 pm
Going out for a long bike ride where you encounter no other humans is fine; encouraging going out on a long bike ride is fine. Going into shops etc (either for supplies or validation) is the only thing I see that's problematic.

Identical discussions were carried out during the first lockdown and AUK decided to suspend validations. I don't see why this time they should act differently.
There has been no change of risk assessment for DIY and perms, as far as I am aware and there is no obligation to be "self reliant". So, the expectation is that randonneurs will go a long way and they will stop in shops in areas which are far away from their postcode, all of which is against the rules, as I understand (don't travel outside your area).

Then I am sure it is perfectly possible to do 200 km, whilst staying in your area and obeying all the rules with a bit of imaginative mapping, but AUK cannot monitor that... so no validations is the only grown up option.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 01 November, 2020, 01:20:59 pm
Identical discussions were carried out during the first lockdown and AUK decided to suspend validations. I don't see why this time they should act differently.

Validations should have been stopped for all of the UK when NI went into lockdown then.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 01 November, 2020, 01:25:23 pm
Identical discussions were carried out during the first lockdown and AUK decided to suspend validations. I don't see why this time they should act differently.

Validations should have been stopped for all of the UK when NI went into lockdown then.

Since it's unlikely that you start a DIY in NI and end up in England, I would say there was no reason to stop them in England? But maybe I am wrong and it's actually quite a common thing to do...

If Scotland is not in lockdown, then good on them and validations can continue there... that seems a pretty straightforward way of applying the rules
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 01 November, 2020, 01:26:42 pm
Identical discussions were carried out during the first lockdown and AUK decided to suspend validations. I don't see why this time they should act differently.

Validations should have been stopped for all of the UK when NI went into lockdown then.

Since it's unlikely that you start a DIY in NI and end up in England, I would say there was no reason to stop them in England? But maybe I am wrong and it's actually quite a common thing to do...

If Scotland is not in lockdown, then good on them and validations can continue there... that seems a pretty straightforward way of applying the rules
Yes, but your talking about AUK not Audax England or Audax Wales, we're Validations officially stopped in NI (even though AUK a' rely exists there) and Wales?

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: bairn again on 01 November, 2020, 01:27:02 pm
Identical discussions were carried out during the first lockdown and AUK decided to suspend validations. I don't see why this time they should act differently.

Validations should have been stopped for all of the UK when NI went into lockdown then.

Wise words. 

Anyhow, Im going to cycle to Aberdeen next Saturday for as long as the Scottish Government guidelines permit it, regardless of AUK validation. 
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on 01 November, 2020, 01:31:05 pm
Identical discussions were carried out during the first lockdown and AUK decided to suspend validations. I don't see why this time they should act differently.

At the time the situation was much less clear and the government were making (informal) recommendations about limiting duration of exercise. Validation was suspended because it was prudent until the situation became clearer, not because it was necessarily required.

Quote
all of which is against the rules, as I understand (don't travel outside your area).

In England at least there is no such rule - you can travel as much as you want as long as it's for one of the listed purposes. The guiding principle is to "reduce our day-to-day contact with other people".
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: GdS on 01 November, 2020, 01:33:53 pm
Calendar events are a decision for the Grown Ups, and I'm so pleased that is their decision not mine.
But perms are OK, from my reading of the rulz.
So a GdS perm will be fine, but only from my reading of the govt statement. Valuation by GPX track as usual so no receipts. Take sarnies and water.
But seems it can be done.

Provided you rode to the start of course

I don't think so; the new rules* state you may travel to an outdoor place as long as you only meet one other person outside your household. Although the polis may have a job defining that as a necessary journey

* given that a lot of this is leaked rather than what PMBJ said on telly last night. More will come to light once Parliament debates / agrees it.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 01 November, 2020, 01:38:55 pm


In England at least there is no such rule - you can travel as much as you want as long as it's for one of the listed purposes. The guiding principle is to "reduce our day-to-day contact with other people".

This is not my understanding... what I got out of yesterday's Boris blurb was "don't travel unless it is absolutely necessary".

Which is very different from "stay at home unless it's one of the following reasons..." going out of the door and travelling are treated separately. To give you an example, I think it would be against the rules to travel to a supermarket 50 miles away because it's cheaper or because it has your favourite brand of chocolate digestives, which you can't find in your area...

But as you can see, we get into the "interpretation of the rules" territory, which I think AUK should absolutely steer clear of
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 01 November, 2020, 01:44:54 pm
* given that a lot of this is leaked rather than what PMBJ said on telly last night. More will come to light once Parliament debates / agrees it.

No need to wait, a lot of the info was already out there yesterday evening:-

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-national-restrictions-from-5-november
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 01 November, 2020, 01:45:33 pm
Think the biggest problem is Boris has gone at told you whats happening last night
He's still to set it before parliament where it could be voted down, or significantly changed by amendments.

So not only are you left with a bumbly description of what he's wanting to be set out, you've not really got anything to go and look at as the SI doesn't get published until passed by parliament (acts go through a series of drafts).

I noted Starmer is still shouting about a UK wide lockdown when NI and Wales are on their way out of theirs already going by the data and Scotland's increase has been flattened off without one.

Political shambles.

Edit: Crossposted with Greenbank who's pointed to government docs
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 01 November, 2020, 01:54:14 pm
Think the biggest problem is Boris has gone at told you whats happening last night
He's still to set it before parliament where it could be voted down, or significantly changed by amendments.


Parliament will approve. Labour have already said they are going to support and there aren't enough Tory rebels to make an opposition... so it's basically a done deal...
Nobody really wants to delay things any further for political reasons at this stage
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 01 November, 2020, 02:02:43 pm
Think the biggest problem is Boris has gone at told you whats happening last night
He's still to set it before parliament where it could be voted down, or significantly changed by amendments.


Parliament will approve. Labour have already said they are going to support and there aren't enough Tory rebels to make an opposition... so it's basically a done deal...
Nobody really wants to delay things any further for political reasons at this stage

True, doesn't mean it'll go through wholesale as written, though I guess since it's largelly a rehash of the original English lockdown rules from the spring and it has a number of the learnings since then covered in it (like kids playgrounds remaining open because the risk in them is vanishingly small) it should get through with little more than opposition grandstanding, it would also be an assumption it will be under EVEL.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: citoyen on 01 November, 2020, 02:07:05 pm
Think the biggest problem is Boris has gone at told you whats happening last night
...
Political shambles.

See, this is why I don’t watch the tv statements. Always seem to cause more confusion than anything.

For actual information, go straight to source.

I can’t see that continuing to validate perms and diys is in any way contravening the rules or exploiting loopholes - and that’s not for selfish reasons since I’m ambivalent about the matter and happy to abide by whatever the AUK board decide.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: phil d on 01 November, 2020, 02:12:12 pm
Having read what Boris said last night, and thinking long and hard, I have come to the conclusion I have no option but to cancel Upper Thames, which was the first calendar event post-lockdown2. I had over 100 entries (and well-established procedures to cope with those numbers at start and finish with proper social distancing). All entrants will get an email from me in the next few hours.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 01 November, 2020, 02:24:24 pm
A pity but not surprising. Such is life. Perms will keep AUK going in the meantime.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 01 November, 2020, 02:30:34 pm
I can’t see that continuing to validate perms and diys is in any way contravening the rules or exploiting loopholes - and that’s not for selfish reasons since I’m ambivalent about the matter and happy to abide by whatever the AUK board decide.

That's because you have convinced yourself that spending 12 hours outside of the house is an acceptable form of exercise and does not contravene the "stay at home" default position.

And then of course you must have come to the conclusion that cycling long distance and travelling are somewhat different. How would you feel about someone going for a 12 hour drive across a few counties, stopping 4-5 times to buy food from shops along the way? Acceptable?

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 01 November, 2020, 02:34:41 pm
Given that I can easily do various 100km routes out of my house without needing to stop for water or anything else, what is wrong with a DIY 200 combining two such routes? The answer is 'nothing'.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Jethro on 01 November, 2020, 02:36:18 pm
I am beginning to wonder how AUK might cope with this whole situation longer term.

Clearly, many event organisers are not going to put their events on until such time that we see a big change in the way forward such as a vaccine so will everyone be happy to renew their membership in the next few weeks when there are no events to enter?

Personally though, I am still happy to renew just to receive my copy of Arrivee which I always love to read.  The editors are continuing to do an excellent job in producing it but with a potential loss of membership income will it still be viable to print and send it out each quarter?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 01 November, 2020, 02:41:39 pm


Personally though, I am still happy to renew just to receive my copy of Arrivee which I always love to read.  The editors are continuing to do an excellent job in producing it but with a potential loss of membership income will it still be viable to print and send it out each quarter?

Likewise... I have no plans to go back to doing Audax for the foreseeable future, but the magazine is worth the membership alone
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: citoyen on 01 November, 2020, 02:49:30 pm
I can’t see that continuing to validate perms and diys is in any way contravening the rules or exploiting loopholes - and that’s not for selfish reasons since I’m ambivalent about the matter and happy to abide by whatever the AUK board decide.

That's because you have convinced yourself that spending 12 hours outside of the house is an acceptable form of exercise and does not contravene the "stay at home" default position.

I haven’t “convinced myself” of anything. I have done no audaxing this year and am unlikely to do any in the next few months, so I am not swayed by any preference on the matter.

Quote
How would you feel about someone going for a 12 hour drive across a few counties, stopping 4-5 times to buy food from shops along the way? Acceptable?

You’re making a host of rash assumptions here. And frankly I’m not interested in rehashing all the silly arguments over this so will leave it at that.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Von Broad on 01 November, 2020, 02:52:36 pm
Having read what Boris said last night, and thinking long and hard, I have come to the conclusion I have no option but to cancel Upper Thames, which was the first calendar event post-lockdown2. I had over 100 entries (and well-established procedures to cope with those numbers at start and finish with proper social distancing). All entrants will get an email from me in the next few hours.

Bad luck Phil, difficult to justify anything else really.
100 entries? Not bad given the circumstances.
Hopefully catch you next year.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Redlight on 01 November, 2020, 02:55:16 pm


Personally though, I am still happy to renew just to receive my copy of Arrivee which I always love to read.  The editors are continuing to do an excellent job in producing it but with a potential loss of membership income will it still be viable to print and send it out each quarter?

Likewise... I have no plans to go back to doing Audax for the foreseeable future, but the magazine is worth the membership alone

I'll pass those comments on to Ged Lennox who, I know, will be very appreciative.

We certainly have the financial resources to continue publishing Arrivee for the foreseeable future and, if anything, it's even more important to do so now than in normal times.

And, of course, we still need a steady flow of articles and photographs....

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on 01 November, 2020, 05:20:57 pm
General Validations haven't been paused for the Welsh or Northern Irish lockdowns though so the precedence is set.
The only thing I read about no validation in Wales was from CET saying which of his perms were off, but then im not in Wales and don't think there was a general announcement (if there was I didn't see the email)

There is no legally enforceable travel restrictions in Scotland (and the guide allows exercise based travel) , and Wales is reopening mid November.

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

My reading of the Welsh announcement was that travel was only allowed into and out of lockdown council areas if necessary for work, medical purposes, etc, so, as I would not want to encourage someone to break laws (or even guidelines in this area) it made sense to suspend those rides where the routes went into a lockdown council area, and then all Cambrian Permanents when Wales went into lockdown.

I guess that if Wales emerges from lockdown the week after next, then that might change the situation (as most but not all of the Cambrian permanents are entirely in Wales), but I would obviously have to follow any central guidance from AUK.



Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on 01 November, 2020, 05:25:27 pm
During the first lockdown I did use some of my idle time to speculate how far I could ride within my local council area without crossing my path.  Basingstoke & Deane isn't huge - 633km2 - but was able to create a 344km ride. https://ridewithgps.com/routes/32602361

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: JonBuoy on 01 November, 2020, 05:46:50 pm
During the first lockdown I did use some of my idle time to speculate how far I could ride within my local council area without crossing my path.  Basingstoke & Deane isn't huge - 633km2 - but was able to create a 344km ride. https://ridewithgps.com/routes/32602361

I am getting:  'The route you are trying to view is not public.'
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 01 November, 2020, 06:15:34 pm
a willingness to look for loopholes, rather being part of the solution, which would be out of character. I do not wish to belong to an organisation that looks for loopholes for selfish purposes.
That's not true: the government has specifically allowed outdoor exercise, it has gone out of its way to specify that. So we are allowed to go for a run, for a bike ride, for a walk in the country. That is specifically allowed, no question and it's obvious that the government has deliberately gone out of its way to highlight this issue.
Now - I'd be the first to agree that the phrase "exercise" means different things to different people. For some, a bike is 20 minutes and for others it's several hours. Remember that it's going to just about impossible to interact with other human beings while you're out on the bike, almost everything will be shut. So the logic is that riding a perm, and having it validated by Auk is perfectly OK.

So, no, following government guidance is not "looking for loopholes" - it's following government guidance.

This, with bells on.  If people want to use a generality to shut down something that has been specifically allowed, or to make up rules that don't exist, they can go get fucked.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 01 November, 2020, 06:56:04 pm
This, with bells on.  If people want to use a generality to shut down something that has been specifically allowed ...

That's the part that's being discussed though. No-one is doubting that the government is giving "exercise" the big thumbs up, what's not clear is whether taking exercise to the extreme (such as Audax) is still "ok".

Everyone will have their own interpretation of the guidance (which obviously isn't clear, otherwise we wouldn't be having this debate) and therefore draw the lines in different places. Understanding that is a bit different to resorting to:-

... they can go get fucked.

which isn't really very helpful.

History is littered with things that were legal at the time (and still are possibly legal) but are now considered immoral or otherwise bad (and in some cases downright illegal now). Who's to know how this may turn out (albeit the impact will be tiny but quite possibly non-zero.)

(Anyway, it doesn't really affect me as the last time I rode a bike more than 20km was November 2018.)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mmmmartin on 01 November, 2020, 07:21:14 pm
How would you feel about someone going for a 12 hour drive across a few counties, stopping 4-5 times to buy food from shops along the way? Acceptable?
This is exactly what the Prime Minister's highest adviser in the land did, and then had the cheek to say he drove 50 miles to check his eyesight. So if it's OK for him to do that it's OK for me to ride 60 miles on my bike without speaking to anyone.. ....
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on 01 November, 2020, 07:23:01 pm
During the first lockdown I did use some of my idle time to speculate how far I could ride within my local council area without crossing my path.  Basingstoke & Deane isn't huge - 633km2 - but was able to create a 344km ride. https://ridewithgps.com/routes/32602361

I am getting:  'The route you are trying to view is not public.'

Sorry, I was obviously worried about Big Brother.  Here is a public version.  Big Brother, if you are watching, I'm not fit enough to do this at the moment. 

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/34558551

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 01 November, 2020, 07:25:43 pm
Nope.  It has been explicitly and specifically stated that exercise

1) is encouraged
2) is unlimited

You really can't argue against that.  There is zero reason why a ban on DIYs can be justified based on the law or what the government have said. 

People who find it inconvenient to keep the rules are punished.  People who find it inconvenient to stick to only the rules they have been given, are showing just as little respect for said rules, and in an ideal world would be punished just as severely.

If you really want to fetishise being told what to do to the nth degree, I suggest you take up BDSM.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Shaftesburybiker on 01 November, 2020, 07:26:31 pm
I'm going to take Tuesday off work and do a 200 DIY GPS as 3 x 70k loops from my house (in lieu of the Upper Thames), so that I have something that will be validated for November.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 01 November, 2020, 07:26:39 pm
How would you feel about someone going for a 12 hour drive across a few counties, stopping 4-5 times to buy food from shops along the way? Acceptable?
This is exactly what the Prime Minister's highest adviser in the land did, and then had the cheek to say he drove 50 miles to check his eyesight. So if it's OK for him to do that it's OK for me to ride 60 miles on my bike without speaking to anyone.. ....

Are you aware of the phrase "Two wrongs do not make a right"?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 01 November, 2020, 07:28:02 pm
You really can't argue against that.

Audax is more than just exercise. If you don't see that then there's going to be little point continuing this discussion.

(Anyway, this is just going over the same old ground from much earlier in this thread. It wasn't resolved then either. It all became a bit of a moot point when AUK decided to suspend validations anyway.)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Hot Flatus on 01 November, 2020, 07:29:07 pm
^  It is also 'travel'

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-national-restrictions-from-5-november#travel

"You should avoid travelling in or out of your local area"
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 01 November, 2020, 07:37:29 pm

The Audax is travel argument is interesting
You're allowed to "travel" to the start point of exercise. But if doing a loop on a bike is travel then so to is walking to the top of Scafel Pike and back or jogging round Hyde Park.
The only scope limiting restriction appears to be the one about having to stay overnight at your primary address. (Not a 2nd home, not a hotel unless for work or essential purposes, presumably not a bivvy bag in a bus shelter).
Which is also a bit presumptuous about what you get up to at night, you could be riding or working and sleep during the day, and I didn't see anything about restrictions on where you sleep during the day.

And even then that's hardly one that can stop a 400 or 600 being ridden as a DIY.

If you're really concerned about not going too far from home a multi leg ride with a series of 25km legs out and the same back soon builds up.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 01 November, 2020, 07:39:22 pm
You really can't argue against that.

Audax is more than just exercise. If you don't see that then there's going to be little point continuing this discussion.

(Anyway, this is just going over the same old ground from much earlier in this thread. It wasn't resolved then either. It all became a bit of a moot point when AUK decided to suspend validations anyway.)

Everything is "more than just exercise".  Jogging is "more than just exercise", it's jogging. Weightlifting is "more than just exercise", it's weightlifting. 

If you're looking for every opportunity to ban stuff, feel free to apply that to yourself.  You've made it abundantly clear on here already that you want everything to stop forever.   How about the rest of us continue applying the principle that specific restrictions of liberty require specific injunctions, and carry on in your absence. 
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: zigzag on 01 November, 2020, 07:41:55 pm
my pov is that if someone is self sufficient, the distance and time spent cycling/traveling is irrelevant. if a cyclist has to stop to re-supply every now and then it's no big deal - people will be going to the shops anyway. fwiw, i used shops twice during my october sr (in 1500km cycled), in line what i would do in five days of "ordinary living".

so, according to the guidance, perms should obviously continue; mixed group rides probably not.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Feanor on 01 November, 2020, 08:02:03 pm
I'm in Scotlandland, so the current debate about the new rulez does not directly apply, but the principle does.

As I see it, 'loopholes' are oversights in the framing of a law which allow for some unintended outcomes.
The exemption for exercise is not a loophole, it was an explicit intention of the rules.

I'm prepared to go with the rules, but I don't need anyone to gold-plate them for me with an interpretation of what they think was meant, or what they think the 'spirit' of the rules are.

Follow the rules, that's all.  They were framed that way for a reason.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 01 November, 2020, 08:04:17 pm
You really can't argue against that.

Audax is more than just exercise. If you don't see that then there's going to be little point continuing this discussion.

(Anyway, this is just going over the same old ground from much earlier in this thread. It wasn't resolved then either. It all became a bit of a moot point when AUK decided to suspend validations anyway.)

Everything is "more than just exercise".  Jogging is "more than just exercise", it's jogging. Weightlifting is "more than just exercise", it's weightlifting. 

I take it you're you missing the point on purpose.

To make it clear:-

Riding your bike is exercise.

Riding your bike in order to collect proof of passage and ultimately seek AUK validation takes it into the "more than just exercise" bracket IMHO (I'm happy for you to disagree).

As I said before. I'm not sure everyone (there might be one or two) here would continue to ride 200km+ rides every month if AUK validation was not available for such rides. Therefore AUK validation offers some form of encouragement for those people to do those rides.

No-one is suggesting people don't exercise, although they should look at the guidance (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-national-restrictions-from-5-november) and decide for themselves what is considered suitable/acceptable.

If you're allowed to go out shopping but that comes with the caveat of "shopping for basic necessities, for example food and medicine, which should be as infrequent as possible". Do you really think that unlimited exercise is in the same free bracket?

If the guidance says "You should minimise time spent outside your home..." does that really mean that exercise is really unlimited?

If the guidance says "You should avoid travelling in or out of your local area, and you should look to reduce the number of journeys you make." you still really take that to mean that exercise is really unlimited?

Sure, people need to exercise but, as I've said before, people don't NEED to get AUK validation for rides. By all means do whatever level of exercise you think is necessary but the general concept of a lockdown is for people to do enough exercise to keep healthy (both physically and mentally). It's not a carte blanche to go to town on things. This isn't the time to selfishly try and maintain some way above average level of fitness (unless you can do that from the safety of your turbo in your own home).

The legislation/guidance will never be specific about this because extreme levels of exercise like this is such an absolute niche that they'd never think they would do.

You've made it abundantly clear on here already that you want everything to stop forever.

Sorry, what? Where exactly did I say that? I've said, repeatedly, something similar to the above.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 01 November, 2020, 08:37:08 pm
So once again, you're taking the generality over the specific exception.  You're not reading the test, you're forcing your desire to ban everything into it, like the petit totalitarian you are.

Please to goodness don't ever get any power over anyone.

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 01 November, 2020, 08:47:21 pm
Golf, tennis and swimming in line for reprieves from Thursday's Covid ban - The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/nov/01/golf-tennis-and-swimming-reprieves-from-covid-ban-government-boris-johnson)

These sports aren't taking it lying down.  What a relief.  With any luck, even the most obtuse among us will stop considering that offering meaningless magpie points to encourage someone to go out for a moderately long ride on their own is an unlawful danger to public health.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: L CC on 01 November, 2020, 08:52:22 pm
It appears that, as ever, people are viewing the rules through their confirmation bias.

I'll be sticking to County Durham from 5/11 and spending a disproportionate amount of time on the turbo.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: GdS on 01 November, 2020, 08:52:35 pm
Sure, people need to exercise but, as I've said before, people don't NEED to get AUK validation for rides.

Yes and I've had some very nice, challenging and local sub 200k rides this year without AUK validation. But from my POV validation certainly helps to go the extra mile km

Probably best wait until TPTB make an announcement
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 01 November, 2020, 08:54:12 pm
If audax is more than exercise and should be banned, the all the "virtual" runs are outwith the spirit of running for exercise and will have a huge clamp placed on them too.
Didn't happen in lockdown 1 if anything they were encouraged.

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on 01 November, 2020, 09:31:04 pm
For many people validation is the difference between staying indoors and letting yourself go mad vs having something to plan and look forward to and a nice day out and participating in a community in a small way.

Sorry, I know in theory it's perfectly possible to do all that without validation, but humans are irrational and tiny arbitrary incentives are what we thrive on.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: phil d on 01 November, 2020, 09:35:27 pm
FWIW, my reason for cancelling Upper Thames was not because I think the new "rules" preclude anyone from riding any distance they want (though for myself, I wouldn't want to ride a 200 without the opportunity for an occasional cafe stop at which I can natter to my fellow riders). My concerns were the number of unnecessary journeys, with many of the entrants coming from Greater London and the Midlands, as well as from closer to the start, and more particularly the number of entrants, at over 100, would make it difficult to argue the numbers interacting at the start and finish. This despite the careful planning that I had done to spread start times over a 1 1/2 hour period. And it is unclear whether I would have been able to have any helpers other than my wife.

All in all, it was not a comfortable decision; I took it with a heavy heart. Interestingly I have had many responses from the email I sent to entrants this afternoon telling them it was cancelled. Not one has indicated any criticism of the decision. One is going to ride it anyway as a perm (starting near his home), which I think is great
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Feanor on 01 November, 2020, 09:49:47 pm
Validation becomes more important if you are on your 9th consecutive year of SRs.

The trite observation that you can still ride x00k and enjoy it without AUK validation is well, true, but trite.
So we look to the *actual* rules, not the imagined ones.

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 01 November, 2020, 10:11:54 pm
So once again, you're taking the generality over the specific exception.  You're not reading the test, you're forcing your desire to ban everything into it, like the petit totalitarian you are.

Please to goodness don't ever get any power over anyone.

You seem tense.

Oh, and you haven't given me an example of my "desire to ban everything".

P.S. "petit totalitarian". I love it.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 01 November, 2020, 10:20:37 pm
If audax is more than exercise and should be banned, the all the "virtual" runs are outwith the spirit of running for exercise and will have a huge clamp placed on them too.
Didn't happen in lockdown 1 if anything they were encouraged.

Again, there's a difference between a run (where you will remain relatively local) and an Audax where you could end up 100km+ away from home. Part of the restrictions are about remaining local.

Sure some people can do cloverleaf loops that mean they are never more than 25km away from home and don't have to visit shops or toilets other than their own home and have no interaction with other humans, but AUK can't guarantee that will happen for EVERYONE if they continue to validate 200km+ DIYs and Perms. That's one of the reasons they suspended validations last time round.

As for AUK's stance. I guess we'll see what it is. The same arguments were made for/against validation in the previous lockdown and everyone seemed to accept the decision made by AUK to suspend validations then. A grown up organisation would also extend the validation periods of things like SRs so that people can still claim "consecutive SRs" even though they may not have completed everything required in the 2020 season/calendar year just like the RTTY season was extended for the particular poor January in 2010. It's swiftly forgotten, records are adjusted and people get on with it.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 01 November, 2020, 10:28:00 pm
Everybody accepted AUK’s overly-cautious position last time. Don’t assume that the same would hold true again, now that there is more knowledge of what actually increases transmission risk.

There were quite a few long distance records achieved during ‘lockdown’. They were celebrated, not decried. A few perms don’t rate.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/jul/31/i-ran-out-of-excuses-lockdown-raises-the-bar-for-uk-ultrarunners

The UK government could be specific, like the French, and give a maximum radius and duration that people can travel outside their home. They haven’t.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: C-3PO on 01 November, 2020, 10:37:13 pm
How would you feel about someone going for a 12 hour drive across a few counties, stopping 4-5 times to buy food from shops along the way? Acceptable?
This is exactly what the Prime Minister's highest adviser in the land did, and then had the cheek to say he drove 50 miles to check his eyesight. So if it's OK for him to do that it's OK for me to ride 60 miles on my bike without speaking to anyone.. ....

Multiple wrongs do not make a right.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 01 November, 2020, 10:38:33 pm
You are not reading the room C-3PO.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: C-3PO on 01 November, 2020, 10:39:28 pm
This, with bells on.  If people want to use a generality to shut down something that has been specifically allowed, or to make up rules that don't exist, they can go get fucked.

This is NOT excellent!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bobby on 01 November, 2020, 11:01:51 pm
FWIW, my reason for cancelling Upper Thames was not because I think the new "rules" preclude anyone from riding any distance they want (though for myself, I wouldn't want to ride a 200 without the opportunity for an occasional cafe stop at which I can natter to my fellow riders). My concerns were the number of unnecessary journeys <snip>

All in all, it was not a comfortable decision; I took it with a heavy heart. <snip>

As an entrant, I believe you made the right call.  I personally wouldn’t be riding, simply because I don’t think it’s in the spirit of what the country needs right now.

I’ll do a shorter, closer to home ride, or maybe stick to the turbo.  Hell, I may even ride the gps route as a virtual ride on my smart trainer just for the LOLs 😂
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 02 November, 2020, 06:42:22 am
This is turning into a debate on whether or not we should go for a 200 km ride during a lockdown, which is not what this is about.

It is about whether AUK should validate such endeavour, or in other words endorse it. It would be counter productive for AUK to do so, with severe repercussions in terms of image or even liability. We have to bear in mind that validation is more than just a sticker, there is a third party insurance associated with it.

I have no doubt BC will advise against all organised riding during lockdown and that includes audax... and I have no doubts AUK will follow the lead on this.
That unless there is some form of U-turn or softening of the lockdown which allows all outdoor sport activities to go ahead as before.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 02 November, 2020, 07:12:53 am


There were quite a few long distance records achieved during ‘lockdown’. They were celebrated, not decried. A few perms don’t rate.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/jul/31/i-ran-out-of-excuses-lockdown-raises-the-bar-for-uk-ultrarunners



I read the article. All the feats discussed were done over the summer. There was no lockdown during the summer, as much as people still used the word to describe the watered down set of rules carried over from spring.
The same feats, if performed in April, would have raised eyebrows at the very least.

We are about to enter a new lockdown, April style

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 02 November, 2020, 07:38:20 am
Everybody accepted AUK’s overly-cautious position last time. Don’t assume that the same would hold true again, now that there is more knowledge of what actually increases transmission risk.

SNIP

The UK government could be specific, like the French, and give a maximum radius and duration that people can travel outside their home. They haven’t.

How about including the bits you left out?

We know a lot more about actual transmission factors now and this lockdown is less restrictive than the first, so it is appropriate for AUK perms by household members to continue.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 02 November, 2020, 07:54:24 am
Exercise is to be encouraged and riding your bike on your own is a very covid safe way of doing this. I would have thought that AUK should be promoting this (whilst making it clear you should be self sufficient for example taking food and drink with you).

There are a lot of newcomers to running and cycling and with gyms closing again another batch might be appearing. I would like to see AUK considering how to encourage progression to long distance cycling.

I agree the government guidance is contradictory if you interpret exercise by bicycle or on foot to be “unnecessary travel”.  Exercise can be as frequent as you wish but travel as infrequent as possible. Also If the “minimise the time spent out of the home” applied to exercise, this would contradict the explicit encouraging of exercise.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 02 November, 2020, 08:30:13 am

I agree the government guidance is contradictory if you interpret exercise by bicycle or on foot to be “unnecessary travel”.  Exercise can be as frequent as you wish but travel as infrequent as possible. Also If the “minimise the time spent out of the home” applied to exercise, this would contradict the explicit encouraging of exercise.

I don't think anyone in government knows about audax and I accept the risks involved in the activity are for the most insignificant.

But that is not the issue. If all activities were to look for ways to carry on as normal, then the very essence of the message would be diluted to insignificance. That's why a respectable organisation, such as AUK, has to lead the way and be seen doing the right thing... even if that makes xxckall difference to the outcome of the pandemic.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on 02 November, 2020, 08:36:18 am
Unsurprisingly there is zero traffic on the AUK forum.  I suspect that they will need to see the full set of rules and guidance from BC.

As for the rest of the debate I'll say the same thing I said to an ex-clubmate who took great exception to me riding outdoors during lockdown 1.   What you can't do is make up your own set of additional rules and then tell me that I have to abide by them.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 02 November, 2020, 08:38:20 am
Carrying on as normal would be calendar brevets with 100+ riders starting at the same time and socialising indoors. Limited distance perms (no overnights) ridden with household members or one other is adjusting to match the English restrictions.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 02 November, 2020, 08:42:12 am

I agree the government guidance is contradictory if you interpret exercise by bicycle or on foot to be “unnecessary travel”.  Exercise can be as frequent as you wish but travel as infrequent as possible. Also If the “minimise the time spent out of the home” applied to exercise, this would contradict the explicit encouraging of exercise.

I don't think anyone in government knows about audax and I accept the risks involved in the activity are for the most insignificant.

But that is not the issue. If all activities were to look for ways to carry on as normal, then the very essence of the message would be diluted to insignificance. That's why a respectable organisation, such as AUK, has to lead the way and be seen doing the right thing... even if that makes xxckall difference to the outcome of the pandemic.
I am not suggesting anything carries on as normal. A normal audax is coffee stops punctuated with a bit of cycling and generally a socially interactive event for most. That is not the only form of long distance cycling. I did the London marathon at the beginning of the month - it was not normal. I feel organisations should be finding ways of promoting exercise whilst staying within both the spirit and the letter of the law.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 02 November, 2020, 08:45:58 am
Unsurprisingly there is zero traffic on the AUK forum.  I suspect that they will need to see the full set of rules and guidance from BC.

As for the rest of the debate I'll say the same thing I said to an ex-clubmate who took great exception to me riding outdoors during lockdown 1.   What you can't do is make up your own set of additional rules and then tell me that I have to abide by them.

Sometimes, you have to be seen doing the right thing... see it as a quid pro quo. Let's say that for instance CTT decided to carry on as normal, as after all there is no mixing, there is social distance and all of that... how will then a request for a road closure for a National event be received by the local authorities next year?

Do the right thing, be seen leading the way making positive change and you'll be rewarded... or otherwise, be seen ignoring the lockdown because you think it doesn't apply to your activity and you'll face the consequences... might be LEL not be allowed to go ahead in 2022 or brevets be subject to stricter rules on risk assessment, to make them unviable for organisers...
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 02 November, 2020, 08:49:51 am
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on 02 November, 2020, 08:56:20 am
Unsurprisingly there is zero traffic on the AUK forum.  I suspect that they will need to see the full set of rules and guidance from BC.

As for the rest of the debate I'll say the same thing I said to an ex-clubmate who took great exception to me riding outdoors during lockdown 1.   What you can't do is make up your own set of additional rules and then tell me that I have to abide by them.

Sometimes, you have to be seen doing the right thing... see it as a quid pro quo. Let's say that for instance CTT decided to carry on as normal, as after all there is no mixing, there is social distance and all of that... how will then a request for a road closure for a National event be received by the local authorities next year?

Do the right thing, be seen leading the way making positive change and you'll be rewarded... or otherwise, be seen ignoring the lockdown because you think it doesn't apply to your activity and you'll face the consequences... might be LEL not be allowed to go ahead in 2022 or brevets be subject to stricter rules on risk assessment, to make them unviable for organisers...

Other than hill climbs there's no other CTT events that require road closures.   TTs returned to the roads before audax this year.

Anyway the same clubmate that took offence to me riding outdoors simply said 'can't you see it's wrong ?'.   And I couldn't.

There is what is explicitly written in the rules - unlimited outdoor exercise - and there's the bit you're making up.   
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: marcusjb on 02 November, 2020, 09:26:54 am
Carrying on as normal would be calendar brevets with 100+ riders starting at the same time and socialising indoors. Limited distance perms (no overnights) ridden with household members or one other is adjusting to match the English restrictions.

This is on the money. Events do encourage unnecessary travel amongst other challenges as above.

Perms should continue but with the onus being on riders to abide by the 'must stay in primary residence' and 'ride with only your household or one other when alone' restrictions.

Anyway, outside of audax, I wish us all well on what will be a challenging winter; get out there and enjoy your time outdoors, whether on foot or awheel.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 02 November, 2020, 09:27:16 am
Unsurprisingly there is zero traffic on the AUK forum.  I suspect that they will need to see the full set of rules and guidance from BC.

As for the rest of the debate I'll say the same thing I said to an ex-clubmate who took great exception to me riding outdoors during lockdown 1.   What you can't do is make up your own set of additional rules and then tell me that I have to abide by them.

Sometimes, you have to be seen doing the right thing... see it as a quid pro quo. Let's say that for instance CTT decided to carry on as normal, as after all there is no mixing, there is social distance and all of that... how will then a request for a road closure for a National event be received by the local authorities next year?

Do the right thing, be seen leading the way making positive change and you'll be rewarded... or otherwise, be seen ignoring the lockdown because you think it doesn't apply to your activity and you'll face the consequences... might be LEL not be allowed to go ahead in 2022 or brevets be subject to stricter rules on risk assessment, to make them unviable for organisers...
Promoting exercise, outdoor exercise in particular, is a key government goal and doing the right thing is important. It is not a binary choice between stopping everything and carrying on as normal. Organisations need to find the correct middle ground.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 02 November, 2020, 09:49:08 am
Anyways, being the proud owner of a permanent that spans across 5 counties and that to my knowledge nobody has ever completed without stops at commercial outfits, I will not validate it during lockdown, regardless of AUK's position on the subject...

it is my prerogative after all
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on 02 November, 2020, 09:51:54 am
Your objection is to people likely visiting shops during the ride rather than the ride itself?

That's at least a reasonable position and arguably supported by the rules. But the solution to that is to encourage/require GPS validation and self-sufficiency rather than suspending validation altogether.

Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 02 November, 2020, 09:54:08 am
You could even check the gpx for loitering in the vicinity of shops.

Edit: or if more old school, ban locks and require a sign on the bike saying “if left unattended feel free to help yourself”
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Frank9755 on 02 November, 2020, 10:06:15 am
The government guidance seem pretty clear: that organised events would be problematic but solo rides are approved of and, if anything, encouraged. 

I don't plan any 200km+ rides before the spring and AUK validation is not a major motivator for me.  But I think it would be against both the letter and the spirit of the guidance for AUK to suspend DIY validation for those who do want to.

I will do rides up to maybe 150km (either solo or as pilot for my blind tandem partner which I think will still be allowed).  I'll carry enough food and water so that I don't have to stop anywhere.  But I generally do that anyway as I dislike stopping so it's not a hardship.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 02 November, 2020, 10:12:18 am
Your objection is to people likely visiting shops during the ride rather than the ride itself?

That's at least a reasonable position and arguably supported by the rules. But the solution to that is to encourage/require GPS validation and self-sufficiency rather than suspending validation altogether.
Agreed,  and now we are into November and the cost weather,  less water is required on a ride.  Its quite easy to carry enough calories for 200km, caring water is more difficult.

Of course while we are talking about non essential visits to a shop for water/a Twix/receipt off licenses are still keen selling only non essentials.

Stopping in multiple different shops in a day is clearly unreasonable, stopping in one shop is questionable (particularly if it is far from home, or on an area with a different risk level)

But it is possible to ride 200km without any human contact at all.  I trialed this in April or May,  with 2 750ml bidons and a 3l camelbak. It is definitely within the abilities if most audax riders to ride 100km carrying what they need, and so complete 200km as a figure of eight ride.

It seems that there are two arguments against
1) unnecessary shop visits, self sufficiency is possible, and other measures against transmission exist.
2) virtue signalling, no actual risk is identified,  but we people want validation to stop as if it will somehow earn brownie points from anyone outside of the sport.

Of course anyone is entitled not to ride,  or not to validate their own events but applying their own additional rules to everyone is a different question. 
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 02 November, 2020, 10:16:54 am
FWIW, my reason for cancelling Upper Thames was not because I think the new "rules" preclude anyone from riding any distance they want (though for myself, I wouldn't want to ride a 200 without the opportunity for an occasional cafe stop at which I can natter to my fellow riders). My concerns were the number of unnecessary journeys, with many of the entrants coming from Greater London and the Midlands, as well as from closer to the start, and more particularly the number of entrants, at over 100, would make it difficult to argue the numbers interacting at the start and finish. This despite the careful planning that I had done to spread start times over a 1 1/2 hour period. And it is unclear whether I would have been able to have any helpers other than my wife.

All in all, it was not a comfortable decision; I took it with a heavy heart. Interestingly I have had many responses from the email I sent to entrants this afternoon telling them it was cancelled. Not one has indicated any criticism of the decision. One is going to ride it anyway as a perm (starting near his home), which I think is great
While it was disappointing,  I don't feel there was even a decision here.  Calendar Events will be banned, all you would have done is delay confirmation of what is the right decision
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 02 November, 2020, 10:36:07 am

If the guidance says "You should avoid travelling in or out of your local area, and you should look to reduce the number of journeys you make." you still really take that to mean that exercise is really unlimited?

Sure, people need to exercise but, as I've said before, people don't NEED to get AUK validation for rides. By all means do whatever level of exercise you think is necessary but the general concept of a lockdown is for people to do enough exercise to keep healthy (both physically and mentally). It's not a carte blanche to go to town on things. This isn't the time to selfishly try and maintain some way above average level of fitness (unless you can do that from the safety of your turbo in your own home).

The legislation/guidance will never be specific about this because extreme levels of exercise like this is such an absolute niche that they'd never think they would do.

Of course the actual guidance from the government says

11. Travel
You should avoid travelling in or out of your local area,  and should look to reduce the number of journeys you make.  however you can and should still travel for a number of reasons,  including
Work
Education
Hospital/GP
visiting venues that are open,  essential retail
exercise

If you need to travel we encourage you to walk or cycle wherever possible...


So exercise is specifically listed as a reason to leave your local area, it is encouraged that you should leave home to exercise and also advised that travel by bicycle is preferable this is not a loophole,  this is the intent.

This does not mean I am arguing audax calendar events should continue or that riders are OK to visit 5 or 6 shops on their way round.

In the interests of minimising contact one 200km self sufficient ride in remote areas is far safer than going out 7 times for 30km rides round a built up area to 'stay local' and signal his curious we are by sacrificing an activity we enjoy for reasons.


Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 02 November, 2020, 10:58:32 am
OK, last time before I just put the thread/forum on ignore.

Yes, I know what the full regulations say. And my whole point is that one doesn't "NEED" to do Audax. Therefore one doesn't "NEED" to travel that much/far.

I agree that everyone should do some exercise (for both physical and mental health reasons), but the point of a lockdown should be to minimise your time outside. This doesn't mean no exercise at all, but then it also doesn't mean unnecessary/excessive exercise.

(And done...)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: iroiromono on 02 November, 2020, 11:25:43 am
I can't see any change in the ability to run events here in Scotland for Scotland based riders given the new rules apply to only England.

My event from this past Saturday had to be weather postponed to this coming Saturday. I guess the big question will be if AUK puts in place a one rule for all approach again or regional guidance as they did with the season restart.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: citoyen on 02 November, 2020, 11:28:17 am
the point of a lockdown should be to minimise your time outside

I thought the point of lockdown was to minimise contact with other people. The risk of transmission is highest indoors, so lockdown prevents that chain of transmission caused by people from different 'bubbles' cross-pollinating in indoor locations. This is why people feel that an outdoor activity with minimal/zero contact with other people is against neither the letter or the spirit of the rules.

The restriction on travelling outside 'your local area' is far more problematic, but that restriction is intended to curtail journeys that are made for the purpose of people going from A to B (and thereby risk transmitting covid from A to B), and bike rides that finish back where they started are clearly not 'travel' in that sense, whatever the distance covered (assuming no stops at other locations on the way). It's definitely a grey area, one that's more open to interpretation. And if someone wants to exploit that grey area, I don't have a problem with that, although I probably won't take advantage of it myself.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Zed43 on 02 November, 2020, 11:28:45 am
but the point of a lockdown should be to minimise your time outside
I guess this is a / the point of contention? My priority is minimising contact with other people, especially indoors. Spending an hour in a gym (assuming that is still allowed in the UK) is, in my view, way more risky for me and other people than spending 10 hours on a bicycle by myself. In the same vein as I see driving (your car) 50 miles to buy groceries for a whole week is advisable over going to a local shop every day even if that's just a 2 mile bike ride.

After reading this research (https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-10-28/a-room-a-bar-and-a-class-how-the-coronavirus-is-spread-through-the-air.html) on the risk of contagion I am both more worried about indoor spaces (esp. poorly ventilated ones, like the elevator in my flat) and a bit more assured on the outdoors if keeping 6 foot distance to others.

Despite of this I feel there may be other reasons why AUK may decide to cancel or reduce validation of rides (mostly public relations). Glad not to be on the AUK board; whatever you decide, people will grumble about your decision  :-\
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Revolution9 on 02 November, 2020, 11:36:36 am
I can't see any change in the ability to run events here in Scotland for Scotland based riders given the new rules apply to only England.

My event from this past Saturday had to be weather postponed to this coming Saturday. I guess the big question will be if AUK puts in place a one rule for all approach again or regional guidance as they did with the season restart.

Other parts of the UK have gone into lockdown at various points since August, and the one rule for all approach wasn't implimented then.  I would be saddened if that changed now.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ben T on 02 November, 2020, 11:39:53 am
OK, last time before I just put the thread/forum on ignore.

Yes, I know what the full regulations say. And my whole point is that one doesn't "NEED" to do Audax. Therefore one doesn't "NEED" to travel that much/far.

I agree that everyone should do some exercise (for both physical and mental health reasons), but the point of a lockdown should be to minimise your time outside. This doesn't mean no exercise at all, but then it also doesn't mean unnecessary/excessive exercise.

(And done...)

The spirit of the law is subjective though.
What "the point of a lockdown" is and how you go about observing the spirit of the rules as well as the letter is a subjective term that will depend on a number of factors.
I think you can feel you have the moral highground if you want in thinking doing a 200k is decadent, but I don't really think you have got a leg to stand on in judging others for doing so as it's not against the letter of the law - only your personal interpretation of the spirit.
A different and equally valid interpretation of the spirit of the law could be that mental health preservation is essential, and hobbies are a part of that.
There isn't a ban on fun, per se.

I wouldn't blame AUK for not encouraging rides by not validating them tho, if it felt it was 'irresponsible' although I wouldn't blame it if it did validate.

Quite interesting though that the main debate on lockdown seems to be going on in the context of Audax, rather than generally...
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 02 November, 2020, 11:40:45 am
I can't see any change in the ability to run events here in Scotland for Scotland based riders given the new rules apply to only England.

My event from this past Saturday had to be weather postponed to this coming Saturday. I guess the big question will be if AUK puts in place a one rule for all approach again or regional guidance as they did with the season restart.

Other parts of the UK have gone into lockdown at various points since August, and the one rule for all approach wasn't implimented then.  I would be saddened if that changed now.
It would be of questionable legality as it could be ruled anti-welsh and anti-irish.
Would need to be a Welsh/N. Irish rider aggrieved at losing the chance to SR to question it though.


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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 02 November, 2020, 11:55:06 am
Your objection is to people likely visiting shops during the ride rather than the ride itself?

That's at least a reasonable position and arguably supported by the rules. But the solution to that is to encourage/require GPS validation and self-sufficiency rather than suspending validation altogether.

That, the fact that one has to cross several county borders and the fact that it is a very long day away from home where you are supposed to be.

If I had a local 50km brevet, I would probably feel differently about it.

In fact, collectively, us AUK organisers could have come out with a challenge for the winter... along the lines of a one hour reliability ride, where you sign up as you would for a normal DIY, declare the route you plan to cover in an hour and then submit your GPX file for validation. If you are within say 2 or 3 minutes from the target hour you get a point, otherwise you don't. At the end of winter you count the points and you give a trophy to the winner.

It's a perfectly acceptable way to promote outdoor exercise, it's a way to prompt people to seek points and validation and it's much more inclusive than this slogging for 12 hours in the bleak mid winter, which frankly doesn't have that much following anyway.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 02 November, 2020, 11:57:56 am
but the point of a lockdown should be to minimise your time outside
I guess this is a / the point of contention? My priority is minimising contact with other people, especially indoors.

The broader definition would be that the point of lockdown is to minimise transmission of the virus.

Both "minimising time outside" and "minimising contact with other people" both help achieve this in different ways, and it's impossible to say how effective each one of those is in relative terms, but there is no false dichotomy, people should be trying to do both.

I'm not making the "minimise time outside" thing up. It's clearly stated in the guidelines (with no weasel exception clauses):-

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-national-restrictions-from-5-november

Quote
2. Staying safe outside the home (Social Distancing)

You should minimise time spent outside your home and when around other people ensure that you are two metres apart from anyone not in your household or support bubble.

Remember - ‘Hands. Face. Space’:

* hands – wash your hands regularly and for 20 seconds
* face – wear a face covering in indoor settings where social distancing may be difficult, and where you will come into contact with people you do not normally meet
* space – stay 2 metres apart from people you do not live with where possible, or 1 metre with extra precautions in place (such as wearing face coverings or increasing ventilation indoors)

(That's the whole of section 2 in case anyone thinks I'm doing any selective quoting.)

People are reading the "exercise" exceptions and (IMHO) pushing the boundaries of this whilst conveniently forgetting the other main principles of the guidance. That's all.

I will be getting back into running, and exercising outside, now that the swimming pool has shut and I can't play 5-a-side football (outdoors). But I'm choosing not to get back into cycling as I can get enough exercise in a few hours a week of running, getting a similar exercise load on the bike would have me outside for much longer and further afield. So I'm doing more outside exercise than before, but I'm choosing to keep this to the minimum I feel necessary.

Everyone will have their own opinion on where things cross the line to "excessive" and, for me, a 200km Audax is beyond that line given my thoughts on what the lockdown is trying to achieve.

But, again, it's funny that if you take away the possibility of the AUK validation of such a ride then for quite a few people (not everyone though) the necessity of doing such a long ride suddenly dries up. If this is the case you've got to ask yourself whether the original plan is strictly "necessary", and only the individual concerned can answer that question (and I'm not interested in any individual's answer).

I'm not trying to "ban" anything but I do hope that AUK decides to suspend validation, but that still doesn't prevent people from going out and doing a long ride. I wish they wouldn't in the light of things. I'd just like to see the carrot enticing people to do things that aren't strictly necessary being taken away for the period of the lockdown. Grumble at me all you will for this opinion, I'm really couldn't care less.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: toontra on 02 November, 2020, 12:12:20 pm
As I posted back in April, my reluctance to do long rides during a hard lockdown has more to do with the risk (albeit negligible) of having a mechanical that required either outside assistance or the use of public transport. Nothing to do with the risk of transmitting outdoors.
As Greenbank says, everyone will interpret the rules to suit themselves. My personal judgement is that I shouldn't do "long"  rides away from home.

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Kangaroocourt on 02 November, 2020, 12:33:43 pm
It isn’t all that complicated. Unlimited exercise is specifically allowed.  Cycling is exercise. It may also be “travel” but the guidance implies that it isn’t, as they distinguish between the two.  But if we accept that exercise = travel for arguments sake, the guidance discouraging travel is expressed in general terms whereas exercise is a *specific* exemption.  It’s a basic principle of statutory and contractual interpretation that specific provisions prevail over general provisions. This isn’t finding loopholes, simply reading the words that have been written.

The net result is that unlimited cycling is not prohibited.  We are just about still a democracy which by definition is a place where everything is allowed unless prohibited.

The guidance is not the law and the two should not be conflated. I have not been able to find the regulations but they should provide clarity.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: basset on 02 November, 2020, 12:38:06 pm
As I posted back in April, my reluctance to do long rides during a hard lockdown has more to do with the risk (albeit negligible) of having a mechanical that required either outside assistance or the use of public transport. Nothing to do with the risk of transmitting outdoors.
As Greenbank says, everyone will interpret the rules to suit themselves. My personal judgement is that I shouldn't do "long"  rides away from home.

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+1
Or have a accident miles/that’s kilometres away from home
It’s up to everyone to use there own common sense .


Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Peter on 02 November, 2020, 12:38:53 pm
At what point does exercise become obsession (which is definitely unhealthy)?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 02 November, 2020, 12:47:34 pm
As I posted back in April, my reluctance to do long rides during a hard lockdown has more to do with the risk (albeit negligible) of having a mechanical that required either outside assistance or the use of public transport. Nothing to do with the risk of transmitting outdoors.
As Greenbank says, everyone will interpret the rules to suit themselves. My personal judgement is that I shouldn't do "long"  rides away from home.

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+1
Or have a accident miles/that’s kilometres away from home
It’s up to everyone to use there own common sense .

Which points towards an explicit limit by the UK government on distance or time away from home which has not been created, unlike other countries.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Peter on 02 November, 2020, 12:52:09 pm
D, have you any idea how other countries are able to enforce that, if at all?  I know that most countries have more police than the UK but it seems like a really difficult thing to get on top of.  Maybe they just shoot the first two or three and people get the idea?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: toontra on 02 November, 2020, 12:53:56 pm
As I posted back in April, my reluctance to do long rides during a hard lockdown has more to do with the risk (albeit negligible) of having a mechanical that required either outside assistance or the use of public transport. Nothing to do with the risk of transmitting outdoors.
As Greenbank says, everyone will interpret the rules to suit themselves. My personal judgement is that I shouldn't do "long"  rides away from home.

Sent from my K10 using Tapatalk

+1
Or have a accident miles/that’s kilometres away from home
It’s up to everyone to use there own common sense .

Which points towards an explicit limit by the UK government on distance or time away from home which has not been created, unlike other countries.
Where do I suggest my decision has ànything to do with government distànce guidelines?

If you go for a ride a long way from home you can minimise certain risks of needing help or transport but not exclude them entirely. What happens if you're rear-ended 50 miles from home?

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 02 November, 2020, 02:29:15 pm

It's all well and good talking about people doing successful 200k rides from their home, and not stopping. But what about all the times when that doesn't work. If you go out on an out and back 200, and 100km from home have a terminal mechanical that means you need to either call a taxi, or use public transport, you are dramatically increasing your exposure level.

I do not believe it is within the spirit of the law, even if it's within the letter, for AUK to validate any ride if there is a lockdown, which England is about to enter. If you must have validation to get you to go out for a bike ride, maybe look at the strava challenges.

J

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: willpom gwraudax on 02 November, 2020, 02:52:04 pm

It's all well and good talking about people doing successful 200k rides from their home, and not stopping. But what about all the times when that doesn't work. If you go out on an out and back 200, and 100km from home have a terminal mechanical that means you need to either call a taxi, or use public transport, you are dramatically increasing your exposure level.

I do not believe it is within the spirit of the law, even if it's within the letter, for AUK to validate any ride if there is a lockdown, which England is about to enter. If you must have validation to get you to go out for a bike ride, maybe look at the strava challenges.

J

Ignites fire...

I can do an out and back 200km within hypothetically 14km of home.

...and runs!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 02 November, 2020, 02:53:48 pm

Ignites fire...

I can do an out and back 200km within hypothetically 12km of home.

...and runs!

So we should validate 200's but only if they are within 15km radius of your primary residence? I think that could be an acceptable compromise... :p

J
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on 02 November, 2020, 02:57:58 pm
It's all well and good talking about people doing successful 200k rides from their home, and not stopping. But what about all the times when that doesn't work. If you go out on an out and back 200, and 100km from home have a terminal mechanical that means you need to either call a taxi, or use public transport, you are dramatically increasing your exposure level.

You're multiplying a small probability (ride ending mechanical, which I haven't had in living memory) by a small probability (catching or spreading the 'vid on a likely empty train). Negligible.

Quote
I do not believe it is within the spirit of the law, even if it's within the letter, for AUK to validate any ride if there is a lockdown, which England is about to enter.

Hypothetically at least they've been validating them during Wales and NI's current lockdowns.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 02 November, 2020, 03:00:40 pm
You're multiplying a small probability (ride ending mechanical, which I haven't had in living memory) by a small probability (catching or spreading the 'vid on a likely empty train). Negligible.

I've had ride ending issues even in my short audaxing career...

Quote
Hypothetically at least they've been validating them during Wales and NI's current lockdowns.

Yeah, they shouldn't have been doing that IMHO...

J
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 02 November, 2020, 03:06:29 pm
It's all well and good talking about people doing successful 200k rides from their home, and not stopping. But what about all the times when that doesn't work. If you go out on an out and back 200, and 100km from home have a terminal mechanical that means you need to either call a taxi, or use public transport, you are dramatically increasing your exposure level.

You're multiplying a small probability (ride ending mechanical, which I haven't had in living memory) by a small probability (catching or spreading the 'vid on a likely empty train). Negligible.



Covid-19 is the aggregation of marginal probabilities... I know we all like to think that those 20K a day that test positive are mostly party goers and people taking no care whatsoever, but this is not the reality. There are many who are very careful and yet end up racking up enough exposure through very limited social interaction to develop the disease.

But again, this is not the point. The point is whether AUK should validate this marginal level of risk or not... I think it shouldn't
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 02 November, 2020, 03:40:34 pm

It's all well and good talking about people doing successful 200k rides from their home, and not stopping. But what about all the times when that doesn't work. If you go out on an out and back 200, and 100km from home have a terminal mechanical that means you need to either call a taxi, or use public transport, you are dramatically increasing your exposure level.

I do not believe it is within the spirit of the law, even if it's within the letter, for AUK to validate any ride if there is a lockdown, which England is about to enter. If you must have validation to get you to go out for a bike ride, maybe look at the strava challenges.

J
The overall probability of catching or passing on covid whilst cycling is going to be very low even when factoring in the risk associated with requiring rescue as long as the probability of requiring rescue is low enough. If say you need rescue on 1% of your rides and the chance of a covid infection on a particular rescue is 1% then the chance of covid due to rescue on a bike ride is 0.01%. Touch wood I have never required rescue (apart from the time I need an ambulance but I was only about 1km from home when that happened).
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: citoyen on 02 November, 2020, 04:03:45 pm
I could make some fatuous point about how the vast majority of accidents happen in the home, but I don't think that would be a useful contribution to the discussion. ;)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 02 November, 2020, 04:11:33 pm
I could make some fatuous point about how the vast majority of accidents happen in the home, but I don't think that would be a useful contribution to the discussion. ;)
Being equally fatuous, so do the majority of covid infections.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: C-3PO on 02 November, 2020, 05:18:05 pm
Post removed for unecessary gratuitous rudeness.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 02 November, 2020, 06:21:07 pm
Wouldn't it be time to remove those rude users as well those rude posts?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 02 November, 2020, 06:40:04 pm
 No
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on 02 November, 2020, 06:44:52 pm
Perms should continue but with the onus being on riders to abide by the 'must stay in primary residence' and 'ride with only your household or one other when alone' restrictions.
This ^^^
Typifying riders who choose to go for a long ride for exercise (with validation or not) as 'selfish' is pejorative and unreasonable.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on 02 November, 2020, 07:30:58 pm
Who’d have thought that a global pandemic would make the cycling community turn in on itself and resort to name calling ?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Hot Flatus on 02 November, 2020, 08:17:16 pm
Ha ha...it doesnt take a global pandemic. In fact it doesn't take anything.

Im still reeling at AB calling Greenbank "flocculent"  :o
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Kim on 02 November, 2020, 08:22:26 pm
Ha ha...it doesnt take a global pandemic. In fact it doesn't take anything.

It usually takes prolonged shit weather, so I think the underlying problem is people not getting to ride their bikes enough.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 02 November, 2020, 08:23:52 pm
Im still reeling at AB calling Greenbank "flocculent"  :o

I missed that, it was gone by the time I looked.

Favourite so far is being called a "petit totalitarian".
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on 02 November, 2020, 09:31:52 pm
Ha ha...it doesnt take a global pandemic. In fact it doesn't take anything.

It usually takes prolonged shit weather, so I think the underlying problem is people not getting to ride their bikes enough.

And the fact that people on this thread are telling us not to ?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: zigzag on 02 November, 2020, 09:49:50 pm
And the fact that people on this thread are telling us not to ?

ignore and do your own thing (that's my approach anyway)  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 02 November, 2020, 10:14:42 pm
Personally I think those who don't want to share the animal and microbial kingdom with the rest of us should be removed to Australia where they can carry on doing their own thing, and everyone else can get on just fine.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: postie on 02 November, 2020, 10:25:17 pm
Thats what i have been doing zigzag, generally riding my bike and doing things i want to do.
End of the day either way someone will tell you what ever your doing is wrong.

Ride your bike your in the wrong, dont ride your bike yout in the wrong.

I guess if the powers to be decided to stop perms ,then we will just have to live with it. But it shouldn't stop anyone riding there bike. One thing i can say with any out any doubt is my flask has been used a lot this year and alot of benches have been sat on. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 02 November, 2020, 10:29:55 pm
It usually takes prolonged shit weather, so I think the underlying problem is people not getting to ride their bikes enough.

Usually I just need to say hello and someone on here will call me an idiot or a moron or some other suitable word to imply that intellectually I am not well endowed. I'm kinda used to it now...


J
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: GdS on 02 November, 2020, 10:45:17 pm
Who’d have thought that a global pandemic would make the cycling community turn in on itself and resort to name calling ?

TBF it has in all other walks of life;

for me YACF has long since ceased to be a cycling forum and the Audax board even less so which is why I now try to either stay on topic or else keep stumm

the Guardian blog is a much better read without the ability to reply so easily...
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: zigzag on 02 November, 2020, 10:50:43 pm
Personally I think those who don't want to share the animal and microbial kingdom with the rest of us should be removed to Australia where they can carry on doing their own thing, and everyone else can get on just fine.

or greenland - it's closer and (almost) no corona there :demon:
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: orejas on 02 November, 2020, 11:53:38 pm
No one is telling us not to ride our bikes. For  most here 200km is a normal day out. However none of us need validation and I can see why being seeing to encourage a 200km ride, which most people, right or wrong, would see as stretching the exercise guidance should not be encouraged by Audax UK. Go out and ride your bike, but these are not normal times
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 03 November, 2020, 06:32:13 am
No one is telling us not to ride our bikes. For  most here 200km is a normal day out. However none of us need validation and I can see why being seeing to encourage a 200km ride, which most people, right or wrong, would see as stretching the exercise guidance should not be encouraged by Audax UK. Go out and ride your bike, but these are not normal times

That's the point that keeps being missed.

It is up to the individual to decide whether they want to ride 200 km or not... it is up to them to interpret the rules. But it's not AUK's role to do so.
Validations should (and will) be suspended
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 03 November, 2020, 06:59:06 am
It is up to the individual to decide whether they want to ride 200 km or not... it is up to them to interpret the rules. But it's not AUK's role to do so.
Validations should (and will) be suspended
Now, the bold bit, I agree with. The gov make the rules (just like the ones about not stabbing each-other, or drink-driving), and being adults we get on with life within them.

What I don't understand is how you leap to the idea that AUK *should* interpret the rules by choosing when to validate rides. Are AUK the police? (Or a version of the police that runs a public opinion poll every few weeks to decide which laws to enforce?)

(but we went through this a hundred times in  the Spring, so I don't expect change. Oh but then again, the "AUK is for the UK, all for one and one for all" thing quickly went out of the window, so who knows?? :P )
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 03 November, 2020, 07:10:24 am
<snip>
Sure some people can do cloverleaf loops that mean they are never more than 25km away from home and don't have to visit shops or toilets other than their own home and have no interaction with other humans, but AUK can't guarantee that will happen for EVERYONE if they continue to validate 200km+ DIYs and Perms. That's one of the reasons they suspended validations last time round.

As for AUK's stance. I guess we'll see what it is. The same arguments were made for/against validation in the previous lockdown and everyone seemed to accept the decision made by AUK to suspend validations then.
Absolute nonsense!

(unless you mean "mattc couldn't be bothered to protest on the streets, or hunt down the AUK board with a sharpened QR axle" ! )
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 03 November, 2020, 07:26:45 am
OK, pretend I said "most people".

If every decision had to have unanimous support then no decisions would ever get made.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 03 November, 2020, 07:58:07 am


What I don't understand is how you leap to the idea that AUK *should* interpret the rules by choosing when to validate rides. Are AUK the police? (Or a version of the police that runs a public opinion poll every few weeks to decide which laws to enforce?)


AUK cannot guarantee a brevet will be carried out following the rules and guidelines of a national lockdown, so staying local for instance, avoiding retail outlets in other areas etc.
If they can't guarantee that, then they can't cover the activity and risk being in a liable position... so the only wise thing to do is to withdraw validations, unless they want to rewrite the rulebook of a brevet in two days.

As I said earlier, we could have thought of a "lockdown-proof" way to carry out validations for short local brevets, but we didn't do anything along those lines, so we are where we are. It's 4 weeks of non validated cycling, get over it
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: JonBuoy on 03 November, 2020, 08:03:11 am


What I don't understand is how you leap to the idea that AUK *should* interpret the rules by choosing when to validate rides. Are AUK the police? (Or a version of the police that runs a public opinion poll every few weeks to decide which laws to enforce?)


AUK cannot guarantee a brevet will be carried out following the rules and guidelines of a national lockdown, so staying local for instance, avoiding retail outlets in other areas etc.
If they can't guarantee that, then they can't cover the activity and risk being in a liable position... so the only wise thing to do is to withdraw validations, unless they want to rewrite the rulebook of a brevet in two days.

As I said earlier, we could have thought of a "lockdown-proof" way to carry out validations for short local brevets, but we didn't do anything along those lines, so we are where we are. It's 4 weeks of non validated cycling, get over it

I reckon that the bit that you agree to where it says 'I am responsible for my own conduct' has that covered.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 03 November, 2020, 08:10:00 am
AUK cannot guarantee a brevet will be carried out following the rules and guidelines of a national lockdown, so staying local for instance, avoiding retail outlets in other areas etc.
or cycling through red traffic lights, or without lights ...
.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Hot Flatus on 03 November, 2020, 08:19:06 am
Its very easy for people to misinterpret the true meaning behind a bicycle journey. Some may see a bike travelling down the road and think they are just travelling, whereas in fact they are earning points for a crucial DIY RRTY.

Much as people wrongly assumed Dominic Cummings was having a frivolous day out with his family in Barnards Castle when in fact he was carrying out an essential eyetest to determine if he was fit enough to drive to London.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 03 November, 2020, 08:24:50 am
AUK's role in this is not something that can be handled by a disclaimer.
If you don't suspend validation and consequently things like SRs and RRTY then some people are going to feel pressured into going out and doing a ride that they didn't want to do before, because they don't want to lose their X year streak, or disappear further down or off some leaderboard on a non-competitive cycling website.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Jaded on 03 November, 2020, 08:38:00 am
If validation and points-led competitions are not suspended, then AUK is definitely encouraging behaviour that could be against lock-down rules.

If you want to go for a long ride, take a personal decision and choose whether to go for one. If you need AUK validation to get you out of the door, then perhaps have a look at your motivations...
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Philip Whiteman on 03 November, 2020, 08:45:50 am
Wouldn't it be time to remove those rude users as well those rude posts?

Quite!

When observing some of the posters on YACF, mainly by an obnoxious but vocal minority, it is easy to come to the conclusion that audax is the 'nasty sport'.  Quite frankly, I don't want any of the Beacon RCC audaxes tarnished with that reputation so the obnoxious individuals who post on this board are warned to stay away. Otherwise they will find their entry fee return promptly. Our events are populated friendly people who are courteous to others and I intend to keep it that way.

As for lockdown, we will be running one of the first events post lockdown on 5th December.  Salt and Cotswold starts from Droitwich and x'rated.  Friendly people are welcome to enter. It is not for people who are hell bent on making audax the nasty sport.
Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 03 November, 2020, 08:52:26 am
AUK's role in this is not something that can be handled by a disclaimer.
  • People are being asked to minimise their time outside.
  • Exercise is an exception to this, yes
  • But, by continuing to offer validation for rides, AUK is effectively encouraging some people to do things that they wouldn't normally do.
If you don't suspend validation and consequently things like SRs and RRTY then some people are going to feel pressured into going out and doing a ride that they didn't want to do before, because they don't want to lose their X year streak, or disappear further down or off some leaderboard on a non-competitive cycling website.
I don’t understand your argument

People are being asked to minimise time outside
Exercise is is an exception to this
Therefore encouraging people to exercise outside is wrong ?

Only shops selling essentials can stay open
Selling online is an exception to this
Therefore encouraging people to shop online for nonessentials is wrong ?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Jaded on 03 November, 2020, 09:19:12 am
AUK's role in this is not something that can be handled by a disclaimer.
  • People are being asked to minimise their time outside.
  • Exercise is an exception to this, yes
  • But, by continuing to offer validation for rides, AUK is effectively encouraging some people to do things that they wouldn't normally do.
If you don't suspend validation and consequently things like SRs and RRTY then some people are going to feel pressured into going out and doing a ride that they didn't want to do before, because they don't want to lose their X year streak, or disappear further down or off some leaderboard on a non-competitive cycling website.
I don’t understand your argument

People are being asked to minimise time outside
Exercise is is an exception to this
Therefore encouraging people to exercise outside is wrong ?

Only shops selling essentials can stay open
Selling online is an exception to this
Therefore encouraging people to shop online for nonessentials is wrong ?

I think he is saying that exercise is not wrong.

But that continuing with an artificial (and unnecessary in a lockdown) points-based 'competition' that puts pressure on those that do not wish to or cannot go out in this way is wrong.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: iroiromono on 03 November, 2020, 09:20:19 am
This thread is coming across as far too English-centric.

 When other home countries were under lockdowns there were not calls to suspend validations.

L1 and L2 areas of Scotland have no restrictions in place which would prohibit randonneuring and I think Audax should be encouraged in areas where it is safe to do so.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Jaded on 03 November, 2020, 09:23:57 am
Iy's a good point, in a situation where there were paid office staff to check and validate that would make sense.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: citoyen on 03 November, 2020, 09:27:50 am
AUK cannot guarantee a brevet will be carried out following the rules and guidelines of a national lockdown, so staying local for instance, avoiding retail outlets in other areas etc.
If they can't guarantee that, then they can't cover the activity and risk being in a liable position...

I'm broadly sympathetic to this argument, but I would counter it by pointing out that there's already a large amount of trust involved in running audax events in normal circumstances - AUK is unable to guarantee that riders will follow the normal rules about riding on public roads during events, eg things like jumping traffic lights, using lights after dark etc etc etc. [ETA: reading back through the thread, I see Davef has already made exactly the same point!]

You can enforce the rules up to a point, but beyond that you just have to trust riders to be able to make their own decisions and behave as law-abiding citizens.

On the question of liability, is there any precedent for AUK being held liable for misdemeanours committed by riders on any of its events?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: citoyen on 03 November, 2020, 09:31:01 am
by continuing to offer validation for rides, AUK is effectively encouraging some people to do things that they wouldn't normally do.

I thought it was more a case of enabling people who do normally do this kind of thing to continue doing it.

I'd be surprised if there were many newbies taking up audax for the first time during lockdown.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 03 November, 2020, 09:36:11 am
AUK's role in this is not something that can be handled by a disclaimer.
  • People are being asked to minimise their time outside.
  • Exercise is an exception to this, yes
  • But, by continuing to offer validation for rides, AUK is effectively encouraging some people to do things that they wouldn't normally do.
If you don't suspend validation and consequently things like SRs and RRTY then some people are going to feel pressured into going out and doing a ride that they didn't want to do before, because they don't want to lose their X year streak, or disappear further down or off some leaderboard on a non-competitive cycling website.
I don’t understand your argument

People are being asked to minimise time outside
Exercise is is an exception to this
Therefore encouraging people to exercise outside is wrong ?

Only shops selling essentials can stay open
Selling online is an exception to this
Therefore encouraging people to shop online for nonessentials is wrong ?

I think he is saying that exercise is not wrong.

But that continuing with an artificial (and unnecessary in a lockdown) points-based 'competition' that puts pressure on those that do not wish to or cannot go out in this way is wrong.
Park run are doing “not a park run” which is a validation of 5km runs to encourage people to unnecessarily go running during lockdown. My concern is that by suspending validation of rides it is giving the impression that going on long cycle rides is to be discouraged during lockdown. During the original lockdown at the start when there were indications that exercise should be limited in duration I was doing 40-50km rides every day - around 200-300km per week. When the duration hints were removed and we were told exercise was unlimited in duration I started doing 200km rides once a week.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 03 November, 2020, 09:38:36 am
AUK cannot guarantee a brevet will be carried out following the rules and guidelines of a national lockdown, so staying local for instance, avoiding retail outlets in other areas etc.
If they can't guarantee that, then they can't cover the activity and risk being in a liable position...

I'm broadly sympathetic to this argument, but I would counter it by pointing out that there's already a large amount of trust involved in running audax events in normal circumstances - AUK is unable to guarantee that riders will follow the normal rules about riding on public roads during events, eg things like jumping traffic lights, using lights after dark etc etc etc. [ETA: reading back through the thread, I see Davef has already made exactly the same point!]

You can enforce the rules up to a point, but beyond that you just have to trust riders to be able to make their own decisions and behave as law-abiding citizens.

On the question of liability, is there any precedent for AUK being held liable for misdemeanours committed by riders on any of its events?

The solution to RLJ is simple... don't do it. What is your solution to "stay local" in a 200 km brevet?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 03 November, 2020, 09:43:24 am
Points-led AUK competitions have already been suspended, many months ago. There will be no trophies for getting the most points. Suspending validations now (or not) has no bearing on that.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Jaded on 03 November, 2020, 09:46:59 am
Points-led AUK competitions have already been suspended, many months ago. There will be no trophies for getting the most points. Suspending validations now (or not) has no bearing on that.

Neatly emphasising the point.

There's no point in collecting points apart from personal, so there's no need for any National body to validate them. Collect them in your heads.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: citoyen on 03 November, 2020, 09:47:46 am
The solution to RLJ is simple... don't do it. What is your solution to "stay local" in a 200 km brevet?

Simple... do it.

It's no more or less enforceable than any other rules that riders are expected to follow.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Jaded on 03 November, 2020, 09:50:13 am
AUK's role in this is not something that can be handled by a disclaimer.
  • People are being asked to minimise their time outside.
  • Exercise is an exception to this, yes
  • But, by continuing to offer validation for rides, AUK is effectively encouraging some people to do things that they wouldn't normally do.
If you don't suspend validation and consequently things like SRs and RRTY then some people are going to feel pressured into going out and doing a ride that they didn't want to do before, because they don't want to lose their X year streak, or disappear further down or off some leaderboard on a non-competitive cycling website.
I don’t understand your argument

People are being asked to minimise time outside
Exercise is is an exception to this
Therefore encouraging people to exercise outside is wrong ?

Only shops selling essentials can stay open
Selling online is an exception to this
Therefore encouraging people to shop online for nonessentials is wrong ?

I think he is saying that exercise is not wrong.

But that continuing with an artificial (and unnecessary in a lockdown) points-based 'competition' that puts pressure on those that do not wish to or cannot go out in this way is wrong.
Park run are doing “not a park run” which is a validation of 5km runs to encourage people to unnecessarily go running during lockdown. My concern is that by suspending validation of rides it is giving the impression that going on long cycle rides is to be discouraged during lockdown. During the original lockdown at the start when there were indications that exercise should be limited in duration I was doing 40-50km rides every day - around 200-300km per week. When the duration hints were removed and we were told exercise was unlimited in duration I started doing 200km rides once a week.

Parkrun: 5km 15 - 60 minutes. No equipment.
Audax: Minimum 200km. Up to 12 hours, more for longer distances. Cycle capable of not having a mechanical over distance.

Not comparable.

Cycle Ride: Do it as you personally see fit...
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 03 November, 2020, 09:54:57 am
Points-led AUK competitions have already been suspended, many months ago. There will be no trophies for getting the most points. Suspending validations now (or not) has no bearing on that.

Neatly emphasising the point.

There's no point in collecting points apart from personal, so there's no need for any National body to validate them. Collect them in your heads.

Missing the point entirely, I see.

People would like validated brevets (which might be 50km, 100km or longer) for reasons that have nothing to do with AUK competitions. Don’t use collecting points for competitions (which don’t currently exist) as a reason to stop validations.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Jaded on 03 November, 2020, 10:10:22 am
Points-led AUK competitions have already been suspended, many months ago. There will be no trophies for getting the most points. Suspending validations now (or not) has no bearing on that.

Neatly emphasising the point.

There's no point in collecting points apart from personal, so there's no need for any National body to validate them. Collect them in your heads.

Missing the point entirely, I see.

People would like validated brevets (which might be 50km, 100km or longer) for reasons that have nothing to do with AUK competitions. Don’t use collecting points for competitions (which don’t currently exist) as a reason to stop validations.

Just ride. No need for Validations.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on 03 November, 2020, 10:15:58 am
I’d love to know what these people who think arbitrary validations don’t matter are doing hanging round the audax forum.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 03 November, 2020, 10:24:58 am
AUK cannot guarantee a brevet will be carried out following the rules and guidelines of a national lockdown, so staying local for instance, avoiding retail outlets in other areas etc.
They've never been able to guarantee that.  Any argument you make that is predicated on that, is false.  You are an adult, what you do out on a bike ride is your own responsibility.

I might murder someone while out on an audax just to make this point more forcefully.

Quote
If they can't guarantee that, then they can't cover the activity and risk being in a liable position...
Rule 1 for life: if anyone raises insurance liability to try to justify a restrictive argument that they've already dug in on, they're talking rubbish, don't have a clue what their insurance contract says and are idly speculating. 

I've never known this rule to fail.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 03 November, 2020, 10:25:42 am
AUK's role in this is not something that can be handled by a disclaimer.
  • People are being asked to minimise their time outside.
  • Exercise is an exception to this, yes
  • But, by continuing to offer validation for rides, AUK is effectively encouraging some people to do things that they wouldn't normally do.
If you don't suspend validation and consequently things like SRs and RRTY then some people are going to feel pressured into going out and doing a ride that they didn't want to do before, because they don't want to lose their X year streak, or disappear further down or off some leaderboard on a non-competitive cycling website.
I don’t understand your argument

People are being asked to minimise time outside
Exercise is is an exception to this
Therefore encouraging people to exercise outside is wrong ?

Only shops selling essentials can stay open
Selling online is an exception to this
Therefore encouraging people to shop online for nonessentials is wrong ?

I think he is saying that exercise is not wrong.

But that continuing with an artificial (and unnecessary in a lockdown) points-based 'competition' that puts pressure on those that do not wish to or cannot go out in this way is wrong.
Park run are doing “not a park run” which is a validation of 5km runs to encourage people to unnecessarily go running during lockdown. My concern is that by suspending validation of rides it is giving the impression that going on long cycle rides is to be discouraged during lockdown. During the original lockdown at the start when there were indications that exercise should be limited in duration I was doing 40-50km rides every day - around 200-300km per week. When the duration hints were removed and we were told exercise was unlimited in duration I started doing 200km rides once a week.

Parkrun: 5km 15 - 60 minutes. No equipment.
Audax: Minimum 200km. Up to 12 hours, more for longer distances. Cycle capable of not having a mechanical over distance.

Not comparable.

Cycle Ride: Do it as you personally see fit...
The only time I have needed rescuing recently was a mechanical failure in my right achilles when running.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 03 November, 2020, 10:26:11 am
What's amusing, is this is the same arguments rehashed when brous prematurely lifted England's lockdown and the same people were screaming that they must be allowed to ride.

I don't remember seeing any Welsh riders screaming that AUK must now stop all Validations because they were locked down.
Or Manchester, Liverpool etc. riders.

But now it's all of little insignificant 1/4 of UK England, all hell breaks loose.

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on 03 November, 2020, 10:38:23 am
I’d love to know what these people who think arbitrary validations don’t matter are doing hanging round the audax forum.

Indeed.   Some of the most vociferous opinions are coming from people that don't take part in AUK events.

Do I hang around running forums telling people not to go for long runs ?   No.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Jaded on 03 November, 2020, 10:42:56 am
I’d love to know what these people who think arbitrary validations don’t matter are doing hanging round the audax forum.

Having just had a look at the Audax Forum, I can't see much activity there. Who are these people?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on 03 November, 2020, 10:51:39 am
I’d love to know what these people who think arbitrary validations don’t matter are doing hanging round the audax forum.
Having just had a look at the Audax Forum, I can't see much activity there. Who are these people?
@grams means this sub-forum @Jaded
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 03 November, 2020, 10:56:03 am
I'm looking forward to riding this weekend's 200, whether as a calendar, a DIY or just a route.  Then there's a 300 next month.  It's almost tempting to do a complete SR of non-events.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Jaded on 03 November, 2020, 11:03:01 am
I’d love to know what these people who think arbitrary validations don’t matter are doing hanging round the audax forum.
Having just had a look at the Audax Forum, I can't see much activity there. Who are these people?
@grams means this sub-forum @Jaded

Ah, Ok...
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 03 November, 2020, 11:06:23 am
I’d love to know what these people who think arbitrary validations don’t matter are doing hanging round the audax forum.

You don't have to be currently riding Audaxes to have an opinion on such matters.

Or do you think there should be a minimum criteria for posting in such a thread?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Jaded on 03 November, 2020, 11:12:17 am
Out of interest, how many members of AUK haven't ridden in the last few years? Is it still about half?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on 03 November, 2020, 11:48:41 am
You don't have to be currently riding Audaxes to have an opinion on such matters.

Or do you think there should be a minimum criteria for posting in such a thread?

Anyone is welcome to post here. But yelling "arbitrary validations don't matter" at a bunch of audaxers is somewhat bus_wankers.gif, yes?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Hot Flatus on 03 November, 2020, 11:54:29 am
1. Nobody is yelling.
2. Im an audaxer. I dont care about validation.

Or are you just intolerant of opinions that differ from yours?

FWIW I think the situation is different from march as we now know that fomite transmission is rare, and we know that outside activity is relatively safe. Thus my belief is that long distance riding is not risky.

However, rules are not there for selective interpretation. If we are being asked not to travel away from home area we should not regard ourselves as exceptions. Otherwise Dominic Cummings was right.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 03 November, 2020, 11:57:51 am
You don't have to be currently riding Audaxes to have an opinion on such matters.

Or do you think there should be a minimum criteria for posting in such a thread?

Anyone is welcome to post here. But yelling "arbitrary validations don't matter" at a bunch of audaxers is somewhat bus_wankers.gif, yes?

It's not "Arbitrary validations don't matter" more that arbitrary validations matter less than national pandemic restrictions.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: citoyen on 03 November, 2020, 12:16:11 pm
However, rules are not there for selective interpretation. If we are being asked not to travel away from home area we should not regard ourselves as exceptions. Otherwise Dominic Cummings was right.

Totally agree with this. The sticking point is whether or not the rule on leaving your local area applies to doing so for exercise purposes. Some think it does, some don't. It's a grey area and I don't think anyone can claim that their interpretation is definitive either way.

(Unlike France, say, where there's an explicit rule on how far you're allowed to be from your home for *any* purpose.)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 03 November, 2020, 12:45:15 pm
If we are going to include the “limiting journeys” from the travel section to exercise, I think, based on my dictionary definition, as cycling is exertion and therefore work it should be done at home if possible.  Better renew my zwift subscription.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 03 November, 2020, 12:49:56 pm
However, rules are not there for selective interpretation. If we are being asked not to travel away from home area we should not regard ourselves as exceptions. Otherwise Dominic Cummings was right.

Totally agree with this. The sticking point is whether or not the rule on leaving your local area applies to doing so for exercise purposes. Some think it does, some don't. It's a grey area and I don't think anyone can claim that their interpretation is definitive either way.

(Unlike France, say, where there's an explicit rule on how far you're allowed to be from your home for *any* purpose.)

If it is a grey area, as you seem to imply, shouldn't AUK stay on the safe side of the grey area, for the sake of avoiding being targeted by future policies on "cycling events"

As you are an organiser, you should have realised how easily you get away with 3 lines in a risk assessment for your Audax events. Spare a thought for those organising races or large sportives, who need to risk assess everything, in documents which are the size of a book
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: citoyen on 03 November, 2020, 01:08:00 pm
If it is a grey area, as you seem to imply, shouldn't AUK stay on the safe side of the grey area, for the sake of avoiding being targeted by future policies on "cycling events"

It's arguable. But I don't think there's an easy or definitive answer.

Quote
As you are an organiser, you should have realised how easily you get away with 3 lines in a risk assessment for your Audax events. Spare a thought for those organising races or large sportives, who need to risk assess everything, in documents which are the size of a book

I've put organising on hold for the time being. While I may be sympathetic to those who want to continue riding and organising events/perms, I don't actually want to do so myself.

For commercial operators of events like sportives, there may be greater impetus to do whatever they can to keep the business afloat, and less sympathy towards restrictions that prevent them making a living.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: TimC on 03 November, 2020, 02:23:15 pm
Given the inevitable interest in what British Cycling have to say, and any guidance they may give, readers of this thread may be interested in this letter from BC to Oliver Dowden: https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/zuvvi/media/Letter_-_Culture_Secretary_Oliver_Dowden.pdf

The thrust of the letter (as explained by BC on Facebook) is to request that small group rides are allowed to continue. Given that Golf and Tennis, though trailed as likely to receive an exemption, have been told they must close, I can't see this letter getting a positive response. However, it would also suggest it's unlikely that BC will recommend any restrictions on cycling over and above the statements from the UK Government (and devolved Governments).
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: postie on 03 November, 2020, 02:41:36 pm
I have also read( cant remember were now) that cycling uk (ctc) have asked the government for a clear answer on how far people should ride from home and for how long....... Could be interesting.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 03 November, 2020, 02:48:33 pm
I have also read( cant remember were now) that cycling uk (ctc) have asked the government for a clear answer on how far people should ride from home and for how long....... Could be interesting.

Regulator pointed that out on the Coronavirus thread in P&OBI.

https://road.cc/content/news/cycling-uk-urges-government-clarity-cycling-rules-278421

Plenty of possible outcomes, not limited to:-
a) A Gove like figure plucking a number like "an hour a day" based on his vast years of experience of being an utter twat
b) A specific answer of (x time and/or y distance)
c) A vague "whatever people consider reasonable" answer
etc...
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 03 November, 2020, 03:09:56 pm
If a specific figure is given, it seems unlikely it would be anywhere near 200km.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: simonp on 03 November, 2020, 03:22:43 pm
a) A Gove like figure plucking a number like "an hour a day" based on his vast years of experience of being an utter twat

There was no legal basis to that, and I basically ignored it.

What we get is things like people complaining about cyclists riding through the town square (on an NCN route) and that "they can't be local, they're wearing lycra".

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on 03 November, 2020, 03:24:05 pm
I have also read( cant remember were now) that cycling uk (ctc) have asked the government for a clear answer on how far people should ride from home and for how long....... Could be interesting.

Hmmmm.   Sometimes it's a bit easier to not stick your hand in the air and make a fuss.   The announcement said 'unlimited' and it would be better to leave it that way IMO.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 03 November, 2020, 03:25:39 pm
Perhaps the most likely response is z) Please refer to the legislation.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on 03 November, 2020, 03:35:57 pm
Asking for clarity.  Be careful what you wish for.

I do very much agree with this:

FWIW I think the situation is different from march as we now know that fomite transmission is rare, and we know that outside activity is relatively safe. Thus my belief is that long distance riding is not risky.

General understanding of how the virus is transmitted has changed a lot in the last 6 months.  Going for a long bike ride (solo or small bubble) and even visiting 2 or 3 shops en route for provisions is not IMHO a risky or anti-social thing to do.

However we are only exhorted to take exercise - which in most minds does not mean 'swanning around the countryside' it means jogging for an hour on a treadmill - asking for clarity on this fine distinction is asking for trouble.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on 03 November, 2020, 03:43:05 pm
FWIW I think the situation is different from march as we now know that fomite transmission is rare, and we know that outside activity is relatively safe. Thus my belief is that long distance riding is not risky.
However, rules are not there for selective interpretation. If we are being asked not to travel away from home area we should not regard ourselves as exceptions.
I agree your 'FWIW' @Flats. Long distance riding is not risky for the rider, nor does it increase the risk for others.
I also agree that we should adhere to the rulz: do not travel 'away from home area'. Cyclists are not exceptions. So I'll not be travelling 'away from home area' or cycling over to visit my aged mother (say). My cycling exercise will start from and finish in my home area and if validations are maintained (and the various rationales offered above for suspending permanents/DIYs are weak imho) I shall ride further on some rides; alone or in the company of one other. This will be a 'good' thing.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 03 November, 2020, 03:50:32 pm
The fact that some are concerned about what the PM will advise as acceptable exercise (asking for trouble) suggests we all in reality believe that a 200 km ride is probably not within the intentions of a lockdown.

That said, clarity is a good thing, then you can make up your mind whether you as an individual want to stick to the guidelines or not.
I will probably ride 1-2 hours a day staying reasonably local (certainly within the county) like I did in Lockdown 1.0, irrespective of what Gove or other will say.

AUK of course will have to stick to the guidelines... if the guidance is go for as long as you want and how far as you like, then I see no reason not to continue with the validations... it probably won't happen though.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 03 November, 2020, 04:04:28 pm

... if the guidance is go for as long as you want and how far as you like,

"unlimited"
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on 03 November, 2020, 04:05:15 pm
I'm not terribly bothered about not being able to ride 200k, I just resent being told that I can't do things, particularly when they are low risk.

As it stands I have just started to train again so doing 4-5hrs on a Saturday morning is really what I'm looking for.   If the limit is per day then I can split the road ride over Saturday and Sunday or do part road and part turbo.   It does look like I will still be coming to the office 2 days a week and that's 2-ish hours each way.   Total mileage should be fine either way.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 03 November, 2020, 04:07:32 pm

... if the guidance is go for as long as you want and how far as you like,

"unlimited"

Let's see what they say. I fear what they mean is that you can go for a run multiple times a day, or you can go for a run, a cycle and a walk with the dog on the same day, rather than you can cycle from Coventry to Hull and back... but maybe I am wrong
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: toontra on 03 November, 2020, 04:08:42 pm


I just resent being told that I can't do things, particularly when they are low risk.

I'm sure 99% of the population feel the same, audaxers or otherwise.



Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 03 November, 2020, 04:15:02 pm
a) A Gove like figure plucking a number like "an hour a day" based on his vast years of experience of being an utter twat

There was no legal basis to that, and I basically ignored it.

What we get is things like people complaining about cyclists riding through the town square (on an NCN route) and that "they can't be local, they're wearing lycra".

A fair whack of the "rules" are to do with things like that.

Why is a club ride of 30 people acceptable when 3 mates meeting up and riding together isn't when they're pretty much the same risk (next to bugger all)?
It's little more than political theatre; You can say things like "It's a club, they know who everyone is and can provide details to Contact tracing easily" to shut people up better than "well they know each other and can easily remember who was there so why the feck not?"

Thinking of how you're going to get home if it goes pearshaped is still relevant, but the country is much better equipped for that now.

I just resent being told that I can't do things, particularly when they are low risk.
I'm sure 99% of the population feel the same, audaxers or otherwise.

It's preferable that people do resent it, less chance that it'll stay once it's no longer a necessary evil.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: citoyen on 03 November, 2020, 04:19:14 pm
The fact that some are concerned about what the PM will advise as acceptable exercise (asking for trouble) suggests we all in reality believe that a 200 km ride is probably not within the intentions of a lockdown.

No, the fear is that they will make up an arbitrary low limit that reflects a lack of appreciation of what is actually quite normal for many people.

Quote
I will probably ride 1-2 hours a day staying reasonably local (certainly within the county) like I did in Lockdown 1.0, irrespective of what Gove or other will say.

So if the guidance ends up being something like 'no more than 10 miles' (based on the perfectly rational belief that no sane person would ever cycle any further than that), would you be happy to break that rule?

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 03 November, 2020, 04:22:46 pm
a) A Gove like figure plucking a number like "an hour a day" based on his vast years of experience of being an utter twat

There was no legal basis to that, and I basically ignored it.

Yes, there was no legal basis for that, and it should have been quite rightly ignored.

But the possibility I was suggesting was that something similar to that would be stated and published properly, even possibly put into legislation.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 03 November, 2020, 04:28:27 pm


So if the guidance ends up being something like 'no more than 10 miles' (based on the perfectly rational belief that no sane person would ever cycle any further than that), would you be happy to break that rule?

Yes, I would... but I wouldn't want to be part of an organisation that doesn't play by the rules... it might be difficult to understand, but it's actually quite an important difference.

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 03 November, 2020, 04:31:14 pm
The fact that some are concerned about what the PM will advise as acceptable exercise (asking for trouble) suggests we all in reality believe that a 200 km ride is probably not within the intentions of a lockdown.

That said, clarity is a good thing, then you can make up your mind whether you as an individual want to stick to the guidelines or not.
I will probably ride 1-2 hours a day staying reasonably local (certainly within the county) like I did in Lockdown 1.0, irrespective of what Gove or other will say.

AUK of course will have to stick to the guidelines... if the guidance is go for as long as you want and how far as you like, then I see no reason not to continue with the validations... it probably won't happen though.
At the start of the last lockdown exercise was to be reasonable and limited to once per day. Later, whilst lockdown still continued, it was changed specifically to be unlimited and as often as you wish,  but not overnight.  I think this was around the time the legislation changed from saying what you could do to what you couldn’t. I too would like clarification even if it does not meet my expectations of unlimited duration or frequency this time around. I disagree however the guidelines are for individuals to choose to follow or not. They are much like the Highway Code and are illustrating how the legislation should objectively be understood.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 03 November, 2020, 04:46:03 pm


At the start of the last lockdown exercise was to be reasonable and limited to once per day.

# Guidance was once a day, but nothing in the legislation, there was no guidance on duration just idle opinion from Gove when asked.



Later, whilst lockdown still continued, it was changed specifically to be unlimited and as often as you wish,  but not overnight.
# There was nothing in guidance or legislation about the time of day you could exercise. You just weren’t allowed to spend a night away in accommodation other than your primary residence.

Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 03 November, 2020, 04:48:16 pm


At the start of the last lockdown exercise was to be reasonable and limited to once per day.

# Guidance was once a day, but nothing in the legislation, there was no guidance on duration just idle opinion from Gove when asked.



Later, whilst lockdown still continued, it was changed specifically to be unlimited and as often as you wish,  but not overnight.
# There was nothing in guidance or legislation about the time of day you could exercise. You just weren’t allowed to spend a night away in accommodation other than your primary residence.
I was not suggesting there was anything mentioning the time of day it was indeed the overnight stay I was referring to that effective curtailed the unlimited nature of the exercise during 5e second half of lockdown. The original legislation was phrased around reasonable excuse. Reasonable excuse in law means objectively reasonable, ie what a “normal” person would consider reasonable. This is similar to the phrasing of the law with respect to say careless driving. Nowhere in statute does it say overtaking on the inside is careless. I believe a 200km audax would not be considered reasonable exercise, however it would be ok under unlimited exercise. We will see in the next few days.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: citoyen on 03 November, 2020, 04:52:01 pm
Yes, I would... but I wouldn't want to be part of an organisation that doesn't play by the rules... it might be difficult to understand, but it's actually quite an important difference.

No, I think that’s perfectly reasonable - and not that difficult to understand, even for me. :)

As things stand, it’s by no means clear that AUK would be complicit in (or encouraging) breaking any rules by continuing to validate rides that involve cycling outside your local area.

Will be interesting to see what happens if we do ever get clarification.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: GdS on 03 November, 2020, 04:56:21 pm
If you have a terminal mechanical on a ride it doesn't make a lot of difference whether you are 20 50 or 100k from home you are going to have to use public or private transport to get home. The same probably holds if have an accident.

I wouldn't hold my breath on getting a more detailed definition of unlimited exercise from HMG before 2.12.20
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 03 November, 2020, 05:01:00 pm
If you have a terminal mechanical on a ride it doesn't make a lot of difference whether you are 20 50 or 100k from home you are going to have to use public or private transport to get home

I wouldn't hold my breath on getting a more detailed definition of unlimited exercise from HMG before 2.12.20
Think the idea is that of you're about 5 miles you may walk it or have someone you live with come out and get you, the further away you are the more need to involve other households.



Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 03 November, 2020, 05:17:25 pm
If you have a terminal mechanical on a ride it doesn't make a lot of difference whether you are 20 50 or 100k from home you are going to have to use public or private transport to get home. The same probably holds if have an accident.

I wouldn't hold my breath on getting a more detailed definition of unlimited exercise from HMG before 2.12.20
I agree re the walking home, any more than a couple of miles and I would be phoning the recovery bubble. However, does it say “unlimited” this time around ? I thought I had seen it can’t see that anywhere written anymore, but I may have overlooked it. I thought the clarification wanted is whether it is unlimited and only if not, what are the limits.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on 03 November, 2020, 05:29:14 pm
The draft legislation is here and places no restrictions on duration or frequency of exercise.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1200/pdfs/uksi_20201200_en.pdf

Restrictions on "travel", or any requirement to stay local, don't seem to have made it into the legislation.

(which isn't to say the matching guidance (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-national-restrictions-from-5-november) on those topics can be ignored)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 03 November, 2020, 05:39:40 pm


At the start of the last lockdown exercise was to be reasonable and limited to once per day.

# Guidance was once a day, but nothing in the legislation, there was no guidance on duration just idle opinion from Gove when asked.



Later, whilst lockdown still continued, it was changed specifically to be unlimited and as often as you wish,  but not overnight.
# There was nothing in guidance or legislation about the time of day you could exercise. You just weren’t allowed to spend a night away in accommodation other than your primary residence.
I was not suggesting there was anything mentioning the time of day it was indeed the overnight stay I was referring to that effective curtailed the unlimited nature of the exercise during 5e second half of lockdown. The original legislation was phrased around reasonable excuse. Reasonable excuse in law means objectively reasonable, ie what a “normal” person would consider reasonable. This is similar to the phrasing of the law with respect to say careless driving. Nowhere in statute does it say overtaking on the inside is careless. I believe a 200km audax would not be considered reasonable exercise, however it would be ok under unlimited exercise. We will see in the next few days.

A reasonable excuse to be outside the home was exercise. It makes no reference to reasonable exercise or tries to define it as that’d be futile.  If you were self evidently out exercising the police had no interest, and with good reason.

Just as it didn’t define what a reasonable shop might be.  Sorry maam 140 toilet rolls is not reasonable, you are under arrest.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 03 November, 2020, 05:41:32 pm
The fact that some are concerned about what the PM will advise as acceptable exercise (asking for trouble) suggests we all in reality believe that a 200 km ride is probably not within the intentions of a lockdown.

No, the fear is that they will make up an arbitrary low limit that reflects a lack of appreciation of what is actually quite normal for many people.

Quote
I will probably ride 1-2 hours a day staying reasonably local (certainly within the county) like I did in Lockdown 1.0, irrespective of what Gove or other will say.

So if the guidance ends up being something like 'no more than 10 miles' (based on the perfectly rational belief that no sane person would ever cycle any further than that), would you be happy to break that rule?
Many people? I bet it's few enough that they gave it no thought whatsoever when drawing up the regulations.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 03 November, 2020, 05:44:25 pm
Well Whitty and Valance were very positive about exercise during this pandemic on a select committee this afternoon but, as they had to point out numerous times, they don't create policy, they just inform those who go on to create policy.

If everyone did enough exercise then the pressure on the NHS would be quite significantly less, although anyone doing Audax is almost certainly doing more than enough exercise not to be lumped in the 'unhealthy' bucket so they're not really going to be the target audience for "more exercise".
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: simonp on 03 November, 2020, 07:00:46 pm
So I shall be continuing to bag tiles. It will probably be much more enjoyable with quiet roads. No validated rides for me and I’ll most likely limit distance to around 100km.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 03 November, 2020, 07:52:48 pm
This thread is coming across as far too English-centric.

 When other home countries were under lockdowns there were not calls to suspend validations.

L1 and L2 areas of Scotland have no restrictions in place which would prohibit randonneuring and I think Audax should be encouraged in areas where it is safe to do so.
Speaking as an AUK in central* England, I completely support this.

*fairly central...
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 03 November, 2020, 08:12:07 pm
OK, pretend I said "most people".

If every decision had to have unanimous support then no decisions would ever get made.
Ok, amendment accepted.

However, you seem to be saying that suspension was accepted by:
- People who tend to keep their head down and accept decisions by volunteers/organisers/elected officials, and -
- a bunch of people who didn't want to do a thing (that was harmless and probably entirely legal), and wanted to stop others doing it.

Is that a fair summary?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 03 November, 2020, 10:00:05 pm
However, you seem to be saying that suspension was accepted by:
- People who tend to keep their head down and accept decisions by volunteers/organisers/elected officials, and -
- a bunch of people who didn't want to do a thing (that was harmless and probably entirely legal), and wanted to stop others doing it.

Is that a fair summary?

Nope.

I don't know the thinking of every person (or any but myself really) but it seemed to be fairly well accepted on here and on the AUK forum.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ben T on 03 November, 2020, 10:46:16 pm
Well Whitty and Valance were very positive about exercise during this pandemic on a select committee this afternoon but, as they had to point out numerous times, they don't create policy, they just inform those who go on to create policy.

Yeah right. What they create is the conditions for their own career win-win scenario: all they have to do is beat their own outrageously doom laden model and they’re made.
The “we’re just academic scientists” is bullshit, these are highly politically savvy people.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: postie on 04 November, 2020, 08:45:42 am
British cycling due to give a update today as to what is permitted and as auk is following there lead i guess. We all could have a answer by tonight if validation will be allowed for the next 4 weeks.

Personally i dont care bagged my 200km for November on sunday :demon:
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 04 November, 2020, 11:51:43 am
However, you seem to be saying that suspension was accepted by:
- People who tend to keep their head down and accept decisions by volunteers/organisers/elected officials, and -
- a bunch of people who didn't want to do a thing (that was harmless and probably entirely legal), and wanted to stop others doing it.

Is that a fair summary?

Nope.

I don't know the thinking of every person (or any but myself really) but it seemed to be fairly well accepted on here and on the AUK forum.
I think there was an acceptance that the people responsible had made the decision and resignation to that  im not convinced most people agreed with the decision,  it was much more evenly split than that.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 04 November, 2020, 05:21:07 pm
CTT have just sent an email to suspend all events in England during the lockdown
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: JonBuoy on 04 November, 2020, 05:32:59 pm
British Cycling updated the guidance on their website (https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200512-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-Updated-Coronavirus-Guidance-0) earlier today:

Quote
Under the new restrictions cycling and being active is still strongly encouraged, but there are a number of rules which we must all follow:
<snip>
There are no restrictions on how far or how often you can ride, however we recommend that you stay within your ability level and prepare accordingly, especially if you are riding alone.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 04 November, 2020, 06:13:49 pm
CTT have just sent an email to suspend all events in England during the lockdown

CTT don't do perms thobut
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 04 November, 2020, 06:19:13 pm
I reckon England will go along the same current audax validation rules of Scotland as posted by Graeme in the audax uk forum the other day. That would make the most sense.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Redlight on 04 November, 2020, 06:41:16 pm
AUK has suspended all events for November - Board was waiting to see whether there was anything significant that came out of the debate today but is following guidance from British Cycling. 

The position on perms needs to be clarified and the Board hasn't had a chance to meet and agree today, so it's probably best not to assume that one undertaken before that clarification - which will be soon - is made.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 04 November, 2020, 06:56:32 pm
CTT have just sent an email to suspend all events in England during the lockdown

CTT don't do perms thobut
In fact, I don't think they organise or govern ANY Audax activities. Can you confirm Karla?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on 04 November, 2020, 07:00:14 pm
AUK has suspended all events for November - Board was waiting to see whether there was anything significant that came out of the debate today but is following guidance from British Cycling. 

The position on perms needs to be clarified and the Board hasn't had a chance to meet and agree today, so it's probably best not to assume that one undertaken before that clarification - which will be soon - is made.
Has this been announced on the Audax UK site, please? I have looked at the News https://audax.uk/news/ and in the Forum.
Your sentence on Permanents seems inadvertently incomplete.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 04 November, 2020, 07:11:10 pm
AUK has suspended all events for November - Board was waiting to see whether there was anything significant that came out of the debate today but is following guidance from British Cycling. 

The position on perms needs to be clarified and the Board hasn't had a chance to meet and agree today, so it's probably best not to assume that one undertaken before that clarification - which will be soon - is made.
Has this been announced on the Audax UK site, please? I have looked at the News https://audax.uk/news/ and in the Forum.
Your sentence on Permanents seems inadvertently incomplete.
I disagree, I think the sentence on permanents
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Redlight on 04 November, 2020, 07:16:00 pm
AUK has suspended all events for November - Board was waiting to see whether there was anything significant that came out of the debate today but is following guidance from British Cycling. 

The position on perms needs to be clarified and the Board hasn't had a chance to meet and agree today, so it's probably best not to assume that one undertaken before that clarification - which will be soon - is made.
Has this been announced on the Audax UK site, please? I have looked at the News https://audax.uk/news/ and in the Forum.
Your sentence on Permanents seems inadvertently incomplete.
I disagree, I think the sentence on permanents

Confirmation of suspension of calendar events should be on the web site shortly. Exact position on perms should be later this evening.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Zed43 on 04 November, 2020, 07:32:58 pm
That would be appreciated :thumbsup: And just that I have the terminology right: perms == diy ?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on 04 November, 2020, 07:35:14 pm
CTT have just sent an email to suspend all events in England during the lockdown

Ah, that’s handy as it reminds me that I haven’t given them my new email address.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 04 November, 2020, 07:42:58 pm
CTT have just sent an email to suspend all events in England during the lockdown

CTT don't do perms thobut
In fact, I don't think they organise or govern ANY Audax activities. Can you confirm Karla?

Only the MR24 😛
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 04 November, 2020, 07:59:01 pm
That would be appreciated :thumbsup: And just that I have the terminology right: perms == diy ?

yes, same regulations
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 04 November, 2020, 08:02:52 pm
That would be appreciated :thumbsup: And just that I have the terminology right: perms == diy ?

It’s more a case of DIY Perms . If perms are allowed under certain rules it’ll cover the subset DIYs.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 04 November, 2020, 08:05:00 pm
Yes, because a DIY is, more formally, a DIY Permanent.

A Perm is a Perm.

A DIY is a DIY Perm.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 04 November, 2020, 09:20:06 pm
As expected perm validations continue in England, limited to max two people per route per day, and no more than 200km nominal.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Feanor on 04 November, 2020, 09:31:50 pm
Current chapter and verse here:

https://audax.uk/news/covid-19-update-4-nov-2020/
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: GdS on 04 November, 2020, 09:38:42 pm
sensible decision IMO I hope riders will act accordingly  :)

Thanks AUK for prompt action in these changing times  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: postie on 05 November, 2020, 08:26:10 am
Good decision from the powers to be and sadly won't be the last time tough and difficult decision's will have to be made by the board.

Not everyone will be happy with the out come, but for me its a big :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 05 November, 2020, 08:27:51 am
Identical discussions were carried out during the first lockdown and AUK decided to suspend validations. I don't see why this time they should act differently.

At the time the situation was much less clear and the government were making (informal) recommendations about limiting duration of exercise. Validation was suspended because it was prudent until the situation became clearer, not because it was necessarily required.

Quote
all of which is against the rules, as I understand (don't travel outside your area).

In England at least there is no such rule - you can travel as much as you want as long as it's for one of the listed purposes. The guiding principle is to "reduce our day-to-day contact with other people".

The Guidance has been updated:-

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-national-restrictions-from-5-november#travel

Quote
11. Travel

If you live in England, you cannot travel overseas or within the UK, unless for work, education or other legally permitted reasons, and you should look to reduce the number of journeys you make. However you can and should still travel for a number of reasons, including:
...
* to spend time or exercise outdoors - this should be done locally wherever possible, but you can travel to do so if necessary (for example, to access an open space)
...
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 05 November, 2020, 08:34:57 am
Somewhat disappointed by AUK's decision.

However, I have informed the perm secretary that I do not intend to validate my perm for the duration of the English lockdown... apparently I wasn't the first to make such a request
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on 05 November, 2020, 08:39:14 am
Somewhat disappointed by AUK's decision.

However, I have informed the perm secretary that I do not intend to validate my perm for the duration of the English lockdown... apparently I wasn't the first to make such a request

Isn't that a bit like taking your ball home so no-one else can play ?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 05 November, 2020, 08:50:49 am
No, that is fair enough.

The organiser only offers a perm route when they believe riding it to be appropriate (because of traffic or other reasons). Some countries limit the dates for some routes because of potential weather conditions. That is a reasonable approach too.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: citoyen on 05 November, 2020, 09:05:10 am
Somewhat disappointed by AUK's decision.

When rules are open to interpretation, you have to accept that sometimes other people will interpret them differently to you. That doesn't necessarily indicate a lack of understanding on their part, or that they are choosing to interpret the rules a certain way out of self interest. It's fine for people to hold different opinions on this matter, and it's possible to come to different conclusions even after thorough scrutiny of the facts.

Withdrawing validation for your own perms is entirely your prerogative.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 05 November, 2020, 09:30:33 am
I was given the option by the perm secretary and I took the option to suspend validation.

I disagree with AUK position, but that doesn't mean I am taking away the ball. Folks can still ride the same route as a DIY if they wish and I am happy to supply a GPX track free of charge, but I am not going to be one validating it, simples...

Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 05 November, 2020, 09:49:51 am
Identical discussions were carried out during the first lockdown and AUK decided to suspend validations. I don't see why this time they should act differently.

At the time the situation was much less clear and the government were making (informal) recommendations about limiting duration of exercise. Validation was suspended because it was prudent until the situation became clearer, not because it was necessarily required.

Quote
all of which is against the rules, as I understand (don't travel outside your area).

In England at least there is no such rule - you can travel as much as you want as long as it's for one of the listed purposes. The guiding principle is to "reduce our day-to-day contact with other people".

The Guidance has been updated:-

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-national-restrictions-from-5-november#travel

Quote
11. Travel

If you live in England, you cannot travel overseas or within the UK, unless for work, education or other legally permitted reasons, and you should look to reduce the number of journeys you make. However you can and should still travel for a number of reasons, including:
...
* to spend time or exercise outdoors - this should be done locally wherever possible, but you can travel to do so if necessary (for example, to access an open space)
...
I think that is fairly clear “travel” in this context is travel to the start of your exercise or recreation (like the Welsh - “you can cycle as far as you want but start and finish from home”).  I believe the motivation is to avoid crowds congregating at busy places and avoiding public transport (it does also say that this travel is best undertaken on foot or by bike). Perhaps AUK should reiterate this and say “whenever possible you should choose a perm starting near your home”. There were similar guidelines as to whether an excuse was reasonable issued to the police last time and they would not issue a fixed penalty unless the travel time exceeded the exercise time.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Zed43 on 05 November, 2020, 09:51:43 am
No word on DIY rides abroad (there's likely less than a handful of us who would be interested I guess  ;)), but may I assume that a 200km DIY will be fine? Also assuming it doesn't matter which virtual brevet cards you buy (I still have a few from "Scotland" in my account)

I don't intend to ride longer anyways; last weekend I attempted a 600 for a last minute SR qualification but rain and electronic gremlins were enough to dissolve my motivation and I scratched half way.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 05 November, 2020, 10:05:19 am
Yes, if your local laws allow riding up to 200km nominal.

And

Yes, any DIY organiser’s brevets count, regardless of ride location.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 05 November, 2020, 10:08:35 am
I don't intend to ride longer anyways; last weekend I attempted a 600 for a last minute SR qualification but rain and electronic gremlins were enough to dissolve my motivation and I scratched half way.

Assuming you had much the same weather up in Groningen we had down in the Randstad, you're mighty brave for attempting a ride at the weekend. The building was shaking in the wind for a lot of the weekend. A canoe may have been a good choice given the amount of rain we had...

J
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: tonyh on 05 November, 2020, 10:11:44 am
When I next get entries for DIYs outside the UK, I'll be mainly relying on riders to be aware of what their local rules are, and to be complying with them.

It's quite a large handful of riders doing such rides.

And yes, DIY brevets bought from any DIY Org can be used anywhere.

Happy Riding!

(beaten to it by LWaB)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: bairn again on 05 November, 2020, 10:19:25 am
A balanced and entirely reasonable decision by AUK - they have clearly worked hard on our behalf.  Confusing messages last night on Faceboook and Twitter can be forgiven. 

I'm particularly pleased to see that they have taken into account the fact that the UK is made up of a number of countries each with different powers and approaches on the subject.   :thumbsup:     

As an organiser I decided in March to both (a) not put any calendar events on and (b) not ride any calendar events until further notice, but keeping DIYs available to those interested is a big ++ imho.   
 
 
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: zigzag on 05 November, 2020, 10:52:19 am
i support auk board's decision, good leadership folks. my "long" rides tend to be 120-160km, but might extend one and make it a 200, if the weather is favourable.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 05 November, 2020, 11:17:17 am
I think that is fairly clear “travel” in this context is travel to the start of your exercise or recreation (like the Welsh - “you can cycle as far as you want but start and finish from home”).  I believe the motivation is to avoid crowds congregating at busy places and avoiding public transport (it does also say that this travel is best undertaken on foot or by bike). Perhaps AUK should reiterate this and say “whenever possible you should choose a perm starting near your home”. There were similar guidelines as to whether an excuse was reasonable issued to the police last time and they would not issue a fixed penalty unless the travel time exceeded the exercise time.

Well, I'd disagree. I'd say it's similar to the Welsh guidance (which isn't quite "you can cycle as far as you want but start and finish from home").

https://gov.wales/coronavirus-firebreak-frequently-asked-questions#section-53253

Quote
Are there any limits on how far I can run or cycle for exercise?

There are no limits on the distance you can travel during exercise, though the nearer you stay to your home, the better. Your exercise should start and finish from your home and you should exercise alone or with a member of your household.

The key bit being "the nearer you stay to your home, the better".

But I'm happy to agree to disagree on the interpretation of those bits of guidance. AUK has taken its stance.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Kangaroocourt on 05 November, 2020, 11:35:12 am
The key bit is not the nearer you stay to your home the better because it is not the law.  The key bits, because they are the law, are that there are no limits on your exercise and you should (must is the correct term) only exercise alone, with members of your household or one other person.  It does not require interpretation. AUK has of course spoken as they are perfectly entitled to do.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 05 November, 2020, 11:43:36 am
The key bit is not the nearer you stay to your home the better because it is not the law.  The key bits, because they are the law, are that there are no limits on your exercise and you should (must is the correct term) only exercise alone, with members of your household or one other person.  It does not require interpretation. AUK has of course spoken as they are perfectly entitled to do.

If you choose to ignore the guidance and just look at the legislation then yes, you could choose to interpret how to live in society that way. Good luck with that.
Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 05 November, 2020, 01:18:23 pm
The key bit is not the nearer you stay to your home the better because it is not the law.  The key bits, because they are the law, are that there are no limits on your exercise and you should (must is the correct term) only exercise alone, with members of your household or one other person.  It does not require interpretation. AUK has of course spoken as they are perfectly entitled to do.

If you choose to ignore the guidance and just look at the legislation then yes, you could choose to interpret how to live in society that way. Good luck with that.
The Welsh guidance is more restrictive. It says exercise must start and finish from home and though you can go as far as you like it would be better to stay local.

The English rules say it is better not to travel, but you can so you do not have to start and finish at home. It says nothing about remaining local. Exercise is unlimited and to be encouraged. It also says if you do travel to reach your exercise destination if not local,  then cycling would be the preferred method.

For many just cycling locally would not encourage cycling. Certainly the interpretation that cycling should only be local has not made it through to British cyclings guidance and I am guessing they have a more direct link to government.

I will see if i get an explicit answer to the question “if I live in a town and normally cycle out to the countryside for my exercise, should I now restrict my cycling to my urban locality”.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 05 November, 2020, 02:14:29 pm
In other news,

I went for a short ride and as I expected, this lockdown is very different from the previous. Traffic is probably 70% of normal, as opposed to 20% of early April.

I wonder where the Fxxk is everybody rushing to...
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on 05 November, 2020, 02:24:19 pm
In other news,

I went for a short ride and as I expected, this lockdown is very different from the previous. Traffic is probably 70% of normal, as opposed to 20% of early April.

I wonder where the Fxxk is everybody rushing to...

Yeah the ride to work this morning was not much different to Tuesday.   Just colder.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 05 November, 2020, 02:27:39 pm
In other news,

I went for a short ride and as I expected, this lockdown is very different from the previous. Traffic is probably 70% of normal, as opposed to 20% of early April.

I wonder where the Fxxk is everybody rushing to...

Yeah the ride to work this morning was not much different to Tuesday.   Just colder.
Last time it took the last week of March before everyone had reached toilet roll storage capacity.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bikeabilityman on 05 November, 2020, 02:37:40 pm
In other news,

I went for a short ride and as I expected, this lockdown is very different from the previous. Traffic is probably 70% of normal, as opposed to 20% of early April.

I wonder where the Fxxk is everybody rushing to...
[/quote
Last time it took the last week of March before everyone had reached toilet roll storage capacity.

I’ve got a few issues of Cycling Weekly ready for the recycling collection in the morning, or I could upcycle them instead, if MK experiences another bog roll shortage 🤣
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: GdS on 05 November, 2020, 05:56:27 pm
as in August EPEs up to 200km are allowed although I would ask riders to

1. Not ride from a higher tier area into a lower tier area if this can be avoided
2. Please minimise interaction and contact with other people / shops etc if riding out of your local area
3. Avoid one way EPEs in order to keep the ride as local as possible and also avoid public transport
4. Check the perm hasn't already had the maximum 2 riders on the day you wish to ride/ There is no limit on the number of riders of EPE per day just on the extended perm

extremely convoluted EPE portions are welcome in order to achieve the above  :)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 05 November, 2020, 07:30:18 pm
...

AUK of course will have to stick to the guidelines... if the guidance is go for as long as you want and how far as you like, then I see no reason not to continue with the validations... it probably won't happen though.
Well said!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: iroiromono on 06 November, 2020, 12:18:44 pm
I have a cal. event up here in Scotland on Saturday and getting queries from Riders in England if they can ride.

 I'd guess not as the legislation encourages exercise to be local and non-essential travel from England to Scotland is discouraged. But the AUK guidance is not specifically clear on this.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Revolution9 on 06 November, 2020, 12:57:01 pm
I have a cal. event up here in Scotland on Saturday and getting queries from Riders in England if they can ride.

 I'd guess not as the legislation encourages exercise to be local and non-essential travel from England to Scotland is discouraged. But the AUK guidance is not specifically clear on this.
The Scottish cycling guidance is quite clear;
"Participants should not drive/be driven in or out of Level 4 areas for the purposes of exercise."

I assume Level 4 Scotland = lockdown in England
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 06 November, 2020, 01:33:10 pm
There's also the guidance for those under lockdown elsewhere not to enter Scotland, and for people in Scotland not to enter places that are locked down.

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Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 06 November, 2020, 02:19:51 pm
I believe it is illegal for people to leave England

Edit: I appear to have made that up.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 06 November, 2020, 02:41:38 pm
There was something about people resident of England having to be in their main residence not abroad or at any other but can't remember exactly.

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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: GdS on 06 November, 2020, 07:48:44 pm
I've had an ECE 200+100 entry for tomorrow in Scotland;

The new AUK advice only mentions the 200k limit for England is 300k OK in Scotland?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Deano on 06 November, 2020, 08:13:59 pm
I have a cal. event up here in Scotland on Saturday and getting queries from Riders in England if they can ride.

 I'd guess not as the legislation encourages exercise to be local and non-essential travel from England to Scotland is discouraged. But the AUK guidance is not specifically clear on this.

I don't think English folk can enter Scotland for reasons other than work or essential travel (can't remember the definition, but a long bike ride probably wouldn't cut it).

Dunno whether it's guidance or law, either way I'd say no - and I'm not sure why they're asking you, Robbie, you'll have enough on your plate and folk should be able to look this up themselves!

Ah here we go.

Quote
The current Scottish Government guidance, given the state of the epidemic across the UK is that people avoid any unnecessary travel between Scotland and England, Wales, or Northern Ireland.

From: https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-guidance-on-travel-and-transport/

ETA: hope the ride goes well with decent weather :)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 06 November, 2020, 08:18:39 pm
Reminded me I was going to check the English guidance

11. Travel
If you live in England, you must stay at home and avoid travel in the UK or overseas, unless for work, education or other legally permitted reasons. If you need to travel you should look to reduce the number of journeys if possible.

12. Staying away from home overnight
You cannot leave home for holidays or stays overnight away from your main home unless permitted by law. This means that holidays in the UK and abroad are not allowed. This includes staying in a second home or caravan, if you own one, or staying with anyone you do not live with or are in a support bubble with.

If you were already on holiday, you should return to your home as soon as practical and comply with the ‘stay at home’ requirements in your holiday accommodation in the meantime.

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on 06 November, 2020, 08:36:29 pm
The English guidance does say that for exercise, "this should be done locally wherever possible, but you can travel to do so if necessary". I think the intention is, if you were a keen kayaker, driving to the nearest lake would probably be ok. Therefore, if you're a keen audaxer, ...

You'd be totally taking the piss though.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 06 November, 2020, 08:36:53 pm
“Other legally permitted reasons” includes exercise.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 06 November, 2020, 08:48:10 pm
The English guidance does say that for exercise, "this should be done locally wherever possible, but you can travel to do so if necessary". I think the intention is, if you were a keen kayaker, driving to the nearest lake would probably be ok. Therefore, if you're a keen audaxer, ...

You'd be totally taking the piss though.

Yes it gives travelling a short distance to find open ground to exercise on as an example.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 06 November, 2020, 09:09:09 pm
As per above link to Scotland guidance.

“ Travel between Scotland and the rest of the UK
Restrictions and advice on what you can do and where you can travel are also in place within England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

The current Scottish Government guidance, given the state of the epidemic across the UK is that people avoid any unnecessary travel between Scotland and England, Wales, or Northern Ireland.

This applies to people who live in Scotland and to people who live elsewhere in the UK who are thinking of coming to Scotland.”

I’d say decline the riders in England, as it’s against guidance.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: bairn again on 06 November, 2020, 10:23:38 pm
I have a cal. event up here in Scotland on Saturday and getting queries from Riders in England if they can ride.

 I'd guess not as the legislation encourages exercise to be local and non-essential travel from England to Scotland is discouraged. But the AUK guidance is not specifically clear on this.

When I started out as an organiser I quickly learned that having and firmly applying an “ entries close” of 7-10 days pre event was very much my friend.  Beware the night afore chancer. 
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Peter on 07 November, 2020, 10:54:54 am
The English guidance does say that for exercise, "this should be done locally wherever possible, but you can travel to do so if necessary". I think the intention is, if you were a keen kayaker, driving to the nearest lake would probably be ok. Therefore, if you're a keen audaxer, ...

You'd be totally taking the piss though.

Yes it gives travelling a short distance to find open ground to exercise on as an example.

Taking the piss is the operative phrase here.  I'm sure the intention is to allow people to take enough exercise to keep them healthy - not to give them leeway to travel in order to indulge their "need" to undertake their "favourite" exercise.  What if your favourite exercise is surfing, or rock-climbing?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 07 November, 2020, 12:52:42 pm
Off topic, but then you would travel to a crag to go climbing.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 07 November, 2020, 01:07:08 pm
I've had an ECE 200+100 entry for tomorrow in Scotland;

The new AUK advice only mentions the 200k limit for England is 300k OK in Scotland?
My gut feeling is that riding to Scotland to do a ride ("exercise") is within the spirit of the law, but
Driving to Scotland for an Audax is narrowly outside.

Just IMO! I don't make the rules/law.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Peter on 07 November, 2020, 01:22:32 pm
Off topic, but then you would travel to a crag to go climbing.

And (in my opinion, admittedly) you'd be wrong to do so.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 07 November, 2020, 01:25:39 pm
Off topic, but then you would travel to a crag to go climbing.

And (in my opinion, admittedly) you'd be wrong to do so.

But neither against law nor guidance. So like you say, just your opinion and what you’d do.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Peter on 07 November, 2020, 01:35:07 pm
But surely against the spirit of the law, which shouldn't need to have to dot every i and cross every t in an intelligent society - which obviously we haven't got.  People on here and elsewhere are very quick (rightly so) to be disgusted at the antics of Nick "Mr Loophole" Whatshisname, as he nitpicks yet another irresponsible footballer out of punishment for a dangerous driving offence and (again, in my opinion) they are doing a version of the same thing if they desperately look for ways to say that the current regulations allow their obsessions, when the regulations weren't made with obsessive people in mind.

But I do accept that my being right needn't preclude others being wrong!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 07 November, 2020, 01:37:29 pm
Spirit of law is to reduce the R number below 1, and therefore pressure on NHS from Covid cases climbing exponentially, and overwhelming capacity. So against neither of those.

It bears no comparison with dangerous drivers getting off.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on 07 November, 2020, 01:47:27 pm
This set of lockdown rules has a much more liberal attitude to outdoor activities than the original. Travelling to a crag would be absolutely acceptable and not exploiting a loophole, as long as you stuck to the other principles (avoiding public transport and people outside your bubble).
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: simonp on 07 November, 2020, 07:03:56 pm
The roads around here weren't exactly quiet today. I'm not convinced that chock full car parks at beauty spots is compatible with R<1.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Hot Flatus on 07 November, 2020, 07:09:14 pm
The roads around here weren't exactly quiet today. I'm not convinced that chock full car parks at beauty spots is compatible with R<1.

If it family bubbles then I cant see an issue. The big spreader is members of different families/households meeting up indoors.

I rode round (much) of the Cotswolds todsy. Huge numbers out and about.
Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 07 November, 2020, 07:16:54 pm
It is not just about exercise and physical health. You are allowed outdoors (travelling if necessary) for recreation as well as exercise. If you genuinely believe what you’re doing is necessary for your physical and mental well-being and it is within the guidelines then you should do it without feeling guilty. If however you are thinking “what can I get away with” then almost certainly you should not being doing it. Travelling to Scotland to a gathering that would be illegal in England seems well beyond “reasonable excuse”.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: GdS on 07 November, 2020, 07:21:11 pm
I've had an ECE 200+100 entry for tomorrow in Scotland;

The new AUK advice only mentions the 200k limit for England is 300k OK in Scotland?
My gut feeling is that riding to Scotland to do a ride ("exercise") is within the spirit of the law, but
Driving to Scotland for an Audax is narrowly outside.

Just IMO! I don't make the rules/law.
 

his home and ECE is entirely within Scotland and all within their tier 2; I was asking about the total distance because AIUI it's max 200 in England
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: cygnet on 07 November, 2020, 07:25:43 pm
The roads around here weren't exactly quiet today. I'm not convinced that chock full car parks at beauty spots is compatible with R<1.
OT
Motor traffic levels seemed pretty normal this afternoon in SE London/Kent. So I guess there are far more essential jobs/trips being carried out now than there were in April.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 07 November, 2020, 07:25:56 pm
There is no mention of a distance limit for Scotland in the latest update. (4th Nov)

Must admit I'd misread what you wrote forgetting you run the eces!



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Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 07 November, 2020, 07:42:30 pm
The roads around here weren't exactly quiet today. I'm not convinced that chock full car parks at beauty spots is compatible with R<1.
AUK really needs to stop events starting at beauty spots.:-(
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: GdS on 07 November, 2020, 08:09:36 pm
There is no mention of a distance limit for Scotland in the latest update. (4th Nov)
Must admit I'd misread what you wrote forgetting you run the eces!

OK thanks  I'll validate when I get the track  :)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 07 November, 2020, 08:51:23 pm

AUK really needs to stop events starting at beauty spots.:-(

You mean like the dodgy part of Chepstow?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Hot Flatus on 07 November, 2020, 09:21:40 pm
Ah, but when matt arrives it turns into a place of beauty
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 07 November, 2020, 10:56:50 pm
The English guidance does say that for exercise, "this should be done locally wherever possible, but you can travel to do so if necessary". I think the intention is, if you were a keen kayaker, driving to the nearest lake would probably be ok. Therefore, if you're a keen audaxer, ...

You'd be totally taking the piss though.

I thought it was more if you live in the centre of a city, then driving to the edge of the city to walk in the woods and green space is ok. Driving from London to the Peak district "for exercise" would be taking the piss, but driving to Epping Forest would be fine.

J
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ben T on 07 November, 2020, 11:42:57 pm
But surely against the spirit of the law, which shouldn't need to have to dot every i and cross every t in an intelligent society - which obviously we haven't got. 

But we haven't got intelligent government. So you can't simply just go on what's "intelligent", or the spirit of the law, because that might involve breaking the law. That's why a lot of people are butting right up against the letter of the law.
Britain treats citizens like children which goes a long way to explain why they behave like them.
So yes they DO have to cross every i and dot every t please if they're going to make rules that they expect people who don't trust them to comply with.
Ministers don't understand the rules themselves  ( my own MP who hasn't covered himself in glory ) https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-top-cabinet-ministers-sow-confusion-over-englands-lockdown-rules-12122634
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 08 November, 2020, 08:27:13 am
The roads around here weren't exactly quiet today. I'm not convinced that chock full car parks at beauty spots is compatible with R<1.
AUK really needs to stop events starting at beauty spots.:-(
You mean like the dodgy part of Chepstow?
I don't know - you and Simon can work that one out between you.

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 08 November, 2020, 08:27:51 am
Ah, but when matt arrives it turns into a place of beauty

 :-*
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: GdS on 08 November, 2020, 04:22:58 pm
There is no mention of a distance limit for Scotland in the latest update. (4th Nov)

Must admit I'd misread what you wrote forgetting you run the eces!


Thanks; calendars and rides up to 600km are still allowed so a 300 ECE in Scotland is perfectly OK  :)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Peter on 09 November, 2020, 01:38:40 pm
But surely against the spirit of the law, which shouldn't need to have to dot every i and cross every t in an intelligent society - which obviously we haven't got. 

But we haven't got intelligent government. So you can't simply just go on what's "intelligent", or the spirit of the law, because that might involve breaking the law. That's why a lot of people are butting right up against the letter of the law.
Britain treats citizens like children which goes a long way to explain why they behave like them.
So yes they DO have to cross every i and dot every t please if they're going to make rules that they expect people who don't trust them to comply with.
Ministers don't understand the rules themselves  ( my own MP who hasn't covered himself in glory ) https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-top-cabinet-ministers-sow-confusion-over-englands-lockdown-rules-12122634

Ben, alas, you're probably right!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Delph Cyclist on 09 November, 2020, 04:06:37 pm
I've just had a query from someone living in Wales, asking if he can ride my Holyhead-Prestatyn-Holyhead 200, as it wouldn't involve going through England for him to get there.  So while all my Perms that happen to go into Wales are currently unavailable, here is one that is entirely within Wales, so is fine for anyone who can get there.

I'm thinking of setting off for Barnard Castle to ride a Perm.  Perhaps I ought to arrange to have an eye test while I'm there.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Peter on 09 November, 2020, 05:05:11 pm
Cummings, number 7, you're time's up!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on 09 November, 2020, 10:04:26 pm
I've just had a query from someone living in Wales, asking if he can ride my Holyhead-Prestatyn-Holyhead 200, as it wouldn't involve going through England for him to get there.  So while all my Perms that happen to go into Wales are currently unavailable, here is one that is entirely within Wales, so is fine for anyone who can get there.

I'm thinking of setting off for Barnard Castle to ride a Perm.  Perhaps I ought to arrange to have an eye test while I'm there.

I have had a similar query on the Cambrian Series.  The Welsh regulations are clear, there are no restrictions on travel within Wales, but no unnecessary travel to and from England.  That means that a 200km permanent is fine as long as it is wholly in Wales and the rider comes from Wales (you could not travel from England to Wales to ride the event).  Given the guidance from AUK on permanents, I will be able to validate Cambrian Series permanents on that basis.

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 09 November, 2020, 10:13:19 pm
I've just had a query from someone living in Wales, asking if he can ride my Holyhead-Prestatyn-Holyhead 200, as it wouldn't involve going through England for him to get there.  So while all my Perms that happen to go into Wales are currently unavailable, here is one that is entirely within Wales, so is fine for anyone who can get there.

I'm thinking of setting off for Barnard Castle to ride a Perm.  Perhaps I ought to arrange to have an eye test while I'm there.

I have had a similar query on the Cambrian Series.  The Welsh regulations are clear, there are no restrictions on travel within Wales, but no unnecessary travel to and from England.  That means that a 200km permanent is fine as long as it is wholly in Wales and the rider comes from Wales (you could not travel from England to Wales to ride the event).  Given the guidance from AUK on permanents, I will be able to validate Cambrian Series permanents on that basis.

Cambrian entries coming your way from Poste Restante, Cardiff Post Office  ;)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on 09 November, 2020, 10:16:55 pm
I've just had a query from someone living in Wales, asking if he can ride my Holyhead-Prestatyn-Holyhead 200, as it wouldn't involve going through England for him to get there.  So while all my Perms that happen to go into Wales are currently unavailable, here is one that is entirely within Wales, so is fine for anyone who can get there.

I'm thinking of setting off for Barnard Castle to ride a Perm.  Perhaps I ought to arrange to have an eye test while I'm there.

I have had a similar query on the Cambrian Series.  The Welsh regulations are clear, there are no restrictions on travel within Wales, but no unnecessary travel to and from England.  That means that a 200km permanent is fine as long as it is wholly in Wales and the rider comes from Wales (you could not travel from England to Wales to ride the event).  Given the guidance from AUK on permanents, I will be able to validate Cambrian Series permanents on that basis.

Cambrian entries coming your way from Poste Restante, Cardiff Post Office  ;)

For those of you with long memories, you may recall the Two Ronnies, "The Worm That Turned", even if the humour is almost certainly inappropriate for these days.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 13 November, 2020, 05:14:07 pm
Has anybody seen or heard anything about the CUK request to the government for hard and fast rules on how long/far cycling is allowed?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 13 November, 2020, 05:21:45 pm
Has anybody seen or heard anything about the CUK request to the government for hard and fast rules on how long/far cycling is allowed?
I don't think the Government care how far you cycle. Which is a shame, as they don't seem to care much about any other aspect of this lockdown. They have imposed it half heartedly...
Traffic is normal, people around as normal and big queues in front of the food outlets open for take away business.

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: zigzag on 13 November, 2020, 07:28:10 pm
lockdown lite ;D

(the r number is falling steadily, which is what govt wants)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 13 November, 2020, 07:40:05 pm
Traffic is normal, people around as normal and big queues in front of the food outlets open for take away business.

It's great isn't it!  ;D
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Cudzoziemiec on 13 November, 2020, 08:13:43 pm
I'd say traffic's around 70% of normal here, a bit less at the weekend. I preferred it when it was nearer 20% but hey those days are gone. Glad if they didn't actually give a definitive answer though, cos it would have been inevitably awkward.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 14 November, 2020, 07:35:31 am
Traffic is normal, people around as normal and big queues in front of the food outlets open for take away business.

It's great isn't it!  ;D

It just means that people are desensitised and need a new level of "bad" to stick to the lockdown rules... something along the lines of corpses abandoned by the side of the road, like we saw in South America in the spring. Numbers and stats don't work anymore, they need to see the real thing
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 14 November, 2020, 10:42:19 am
There's been no humanising of the death toll in the UK, 50,000 now. Really a pobi post though.

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 14 November, 2020, 11:49:03 am
Traffic is normal, people around as normal and big queues in front of the food outlets open for take away business.

It's great isn't it!  ;D

It just means that people are desensitised and need a new level of "bad" to stick to the lockdown rules... something along the lines of corpses abandoned by the side of the road, like we saw in South America in the spring. Numbers and stats don't work anymore, they need to see the real thing
Alternatively they've got a healthy appreciation of the minimal risk to themselves, and a sound philosophy that says that other people "Granny" can't expect them to shut down their lives indefinitely  for her sake.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 14 November, 2020, 11:59:25 am
Traffic is normal, people around as normal and big queues in front of the food outlets open for take away business.

It's great isn't it!  ;D

It just means that people are desensitised and need a new level of "bad" to stick to the lockdown rules... something along the lines of corpses abandoned by the side of the road, like we saw in South America in the spring. Numbers and stats don't work anymore, they need to see the real thing
Perhaps these people are following the rules? Perhaps they're NHS workers, keen to keep the pandemic under control. They just fancy a Big-Mac, and the rules allow it currently.

I'd rather traffic went back down to April levels, but realistically it's not cars that spread Corona so I choose not to moan about it. (or invent my own extra rules for other people)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Hot Flatus on 14 November, 2020, 12:23:03 pm
Traffic is normal, people around as normal and big queues in front of the food outlets open for take away business.

It's great isn't it!  ;D

It just means that people are desensitised and need a new level of "bad" to stick to the lockdown rules... something along the lines of corpses abandoned by the side of the road, like we saw in South America in the spring. Numbers and stats don't work anymore, they need to see the real thing
Alternatively they've got a healthy appreciation of the minimal risk to themselves, and a sound philosophy that says that other people "Granny" can't expect them to shut down their lives indefinitely  for her sake.

^ Thatcher's child
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 14 November, 2020, 12:23:19 pm
Traffic is normal, people around as normal and big queues in front of the food outlets open for take away business.

It's great isn't it!  ;D

It just means that people are desensitised and need a new level of "bad" to stick to the lockdown rules... something along the lines of corpses abandoned by the side of the road, like we saw in South America in the spring. Numbers and stats don't work anymore, they need to see the real thing
Perhaps these people are following the rules? Perhaps they're NHS workers, keen to keep the pandemic under control. They just fancy a Big-Mac, and the rules allow it currently.

I'd rather traffic went back down to April levels, but realistically it's not cars that spread Corona so I choose not to moan about it. (or invent my own extra rules for other people)

There is no moaning. Whether you like it or not, there is a direct correlation between how many people leave the house and how many infections will come as a result.
So if you see more traffic than last time and more people around than last time, all it means is that the lockdown will be less effective than last time. It will bring the R value below one, but not by much and not as quickly. The result is obviously is a stubbornly high number of people in hospitals over the winter and of course deaths piling up.
This is a fact.

They are not all NHS workers, they are not all supposed to be around, they are just less intimidated than they were in spring and the message "stay at home" is not as strong as it was in spring (I think BoJo said it once).
For instance, my neighbour wasn't even home last night and he's not back yet. Should I report him or should I report the other lady living on the opposite side of the road who seems to have people around despite the lockdown? In the end I mind my own business, as we mostly tend to do, but I can't help noticing...
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 14 November, 2020, 01:22:47 pm
...
There is no moaning. Whether you like it or not, there is a direct correlation between how many people leave the house and how many infections will come as a result.
So if you see more traffic than last time and more people around than last time, all it means is that the lockdown will be less effective than last time. It will bring the R value below one, but not by much and not as quickly. The result is obviously is a stubbornly high number of people in hospitals over the winter and of course deaths piling up.
This is a fact.

They are not all NHS workers, they are not all supposed to be around, they are just less intimidated than they were in spring and the message "stay at home" is not as strong as it was in spring (I think BoJo said it once).
For instance, my neighbour wasn't even home last night and he's not back yet. Should I report him or should I report the other lady living on the opposite side of the road who seems to have people around despite the lockdown? In the end I mind my own business, as we mostly tend to do, but I can't help noticing...
Noticing, but not moaning?  ;D

Anyway, visiting other households (especially staying indoors overnight), whether on foot, brompton or car, is a much better transmission vector than driving to a takeaway that is following all appropriate measures. (I cycled to a small independent cafe yesterday before the rains arrived - they were very conscientious, and us few customers Q-ed quite sensibly on the pavement, thankyouverymuch.)

Suggest you shop them, for the good of all of us  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 14 November, 2020, 01:49:02 pm

For those of you with long memories, you may recall the Two Ronnies, "The Worm That Turned", even if the humour is almost certainly inappropriate for these days.
Wow, you are Mr Memory. I remember TWTT, but I had to google for the Wales aspect!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Ronnies#The_Worm_That_Turned_(1980)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 14 November, 2020, 01:55:19 pm

Suggest you shop them, for the good of all of us  :thumbsup:

Me?

I am a lockdown winner... the longer this thing goes on, the better off I am, sad as it sounds. Working from home has been life changing, I am in no rush to head back to the office any time soon. I hope my age group doesn't get a vaccine until next autumn...
That said, I am mindful of what the rules are and I stick to them religiously... it's a bit odd to see those that have more to lose from the all Covid saga and can't help themselves
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 14 November, 2020, 02:11:58 pm

Suggest you shop them, for the good of all of us  :thumbsup:

Me?

I am a lockdown winner... the longer this thing goes on, the better off I am, sad as it sounds. Working from home has been life changing, I am in no rush to head back to the office any time soon. I hope my age group doesn't get a vaccine until next autumn...
That said, I am mindful of what the rules are and I stick to them religiously... it's a bit odd to see those that have more to lose from the all Covid saga and can't help themselves

Wow, you really are a prize specimen.  If you're a "winner", how about you stop parading your own easy compliance around to people who've lost out more than you.  The least you can do is stop shoving your own smug self-righteousness in our faces.

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Jaded on 14 November, 2020, 02:47:52 pm
Instead take smug self-righteousness out on the roads on a long bike ride  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Hot Flatus on 14 November, 2020, 03:14:54 pm

Suggest you shop them, for the good of all of us  :thumbsup:

Me?

I am a lockdown winner... the longer this thing goes on, the better off I am, sad as it sounds. Working from home has been life changing, I am in no rush to head back to the office any time soon. I hope my age group doesn't get a vaccine until next autumn...
That said, I am mindful of what the rules are and I stick to them religiously... it's a bit odd to see those that have more to lose from the all Covid saga and can't help themselves

Wow, you really are a prize specimen.  If you're a "winner", how about you stop parading your own easy compliance around to people who've lost out more than you.  The least you can do is stop shoving your own smug self-righteousness in our faces.

The next step in that thought process is to consider why those people have lost out.

Yes, its circular, isn't it.  ;)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on 14 November, 2020, 03:54:42 pm
Wow, you really are a prize specimen.  If you're a "winner", how about you stop parading your own easy compliance around to people who've lost out more than you.  The least you can do is stop shoving your own smug self-righteousness in our faces.

Absolutely. I can't stand people who won't take covid seriously.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 14 November, 2020, 04:14:16 pm
I should also point out that my compliance would be the same, even if I was less comfortable in following the rules...

You either believe in the collective good or you don't... clearly a lot of people don't. It's interesting that the same neighbours who seemingly ignore the lockdown, also ignore other things like recycling glass, plastic and paper or educating your fuxxing dog not to bark at night... it's part and parcel of the same sense of responsibility... you have it or you don't
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ben T on 14 November, 2020, 05:48:00 pm

Suggest you shop them, for the good of all of us  :thumbsup:

Me?

I am a lockdown winner... the longer this thing goes on, the better off I am, sad as it sounds. Working from home has been life changing, I am in no rush to head back to the office any time soon. I hope my age group doesn't get a vaccine until next autumn...
That said, I am mindful of what the rules are and I stick to them religiously... it's a bit odd to see those that have more to lose from the all Covid saga and can't help themselves

You don’t need Covid or lockdown to work from home you know. You can choose to work from home anyway. If your current employer moans, tell them to shove their office up their orifice and find another one.
Don’t ask, tell.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: FifeingEejit on 14 November, 2020, 06:15:06 pm
You either believe in the collective good or you don't... clearly a lot of people don't.

I've got a great idea that they don't, but they tend to be the ones that moan about waiting times and stuff whenever it affects them directly.
They'll love not using the collective good that is the UKs health services, bit fucked without it I suppose since private doesn't cover the same range of services.

Of course that's totally unethical if your'e a medic, but I'm not so...
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on 14 November, 2020, 06:29:03 pm
I can work from home but I don’t really like it.  In fact I’m shit at it.

I’m going to the office 2 days a week but riding there.   We have a rota to reduce mixing.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 14 November, 2020, 06:32:13 pm
We have a rota to reduce mixing.
I heard bread makers have them to increase mixing.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Karla on 14 November, 2020, 07:16:54 pm
I should also point out that my compliance would be the same, even if I was less comfortable in following the rules...

The 'common good' matches up with your personal good?  How very convenient.  You'd do the same even if it wasn't so marvellously advantageous for you personally?  Yeah right  ::-)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Hot Flatus on 14 November, 2020, 07:18:20 pm
Eww
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ajax Bay on 18 November, 2020, 06:31:01 pm
Here's a neat Travel Isochrones app to work out how far one 'could' ride (at about ?9? mph) if one wanted to stay within 30 minutes (say) of 'home' during one's exercise:
https://api.geoapify.com/v1/isoline?lat=51.630211&lon=-0.766676&type=time&mode=bicycle&range=1800&apiKey=YOUR_API_KEY
because one thought one might have a mechanical which makes one's well-serviced, dependable bike unrideable, for the first time in years.
[Edit: Try: https://apidocs.geoapify.com/playground/icon and here's another: https://app.traveltime.com/search/0_lat=51.62826&0_lng=-0.77211&0_title=High%20Wycombe%2C%20England%2C%20United%20Kingdom&0_mode=cycling_ferry ]
NB I am not suggesting riders limit themselves in any way, other than complying with local/regional/national rules/guidelines/laws, and thoroughly enjoyed my 200 DIY last week.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: JonBuoy on 18 November, 2020, 06:40:07 pm
On Chrome and Edge I just get:

Quote
{"statusCode":401,"error":"Unauthorized","message":"Invalid apiKey"}
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ben T on 18 November, 2020, 06:41:11 pm
Here's a neat app to work out how far one 'could' ride (at about ?9? mph) if one wanted to stay within 30 minutes (say) of 'home' during one's exercise:
https://api.geoapify.com/v1/isoline?lat=51.630211&lon=-0.766676&type=time&mode=bicycle&range=1800&apiKey=YOUR_API_KEY
because one thought one might have a mechanical which makes one's well-serviced, dependable bike unrideable, for the first time in years.
NB I am not suggesting riders limit themselves in any way, other than complying with local/regional/national rules/guidelines/laws, and thoroughly enjoyed my 200 DIY last week.

Brilliant. That's such a great idea I might even be bothered to sign up for my own API key.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Socks on 26 November, 2020, 02:00:48 pm
Just looking at the new guidance for Tier 3 (which is what the North East of England is in until at least mid-December.  It includes:

"People are advised not to travel to and from tier three areas"

So for my December DIY looks like I should avoid one of my regular routes, which travels into North Yorkshire (Tier 2).  Still plenty of scope if I head North or West instead.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ben T on 26 November, 2020, 02:23:52 pm
Just looking at the new guidance for Tier 3 (which is what the North East of England is in until at least mid-December.  It includes:

"People are advised not to travel to and from tier three areas"

So for my December DIY looks like I should avoid one of my regular routes, which travels into North Yorkshire (Tier 2).  Still plenty of scope if I head North or West instead.

if they made the whole country tier 3 you could travel wherever you like   :-\
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 26 November, 2020, 03:18:35 pm
Just looking at the new guidance for Tier 3 (which is what the North East of England is in until at least mid-December.  It includes:

"People are advised not to travel to and from tier three areas"

So for my December DIY looks like I should avoid one of my regular routes, which travels into North Yorkshire (Tier 2).  Still plenty of scope if I head North or West instead.

if they made the whole country tier 3 you could travel wherever you like   :-\
But I wouldn't be able to have a wetherspoons lunch  :(
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: JonBuoy on 26 November, 2020, 03:39:33 pm
Just looking at the new guidance for Tier 3 (which is what the North East of England is in until at least mid-December.  It includes:

"People are advised not to travel to and from tier three areas"

So for my December DIY looks like I should avoid one of my regular routes, which travels into North Yorkshire (Tier 2).  Still plenty of scope if I head North or West instead.

It also states:

Quote
You can travel through other areas as part of a longer journey
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Frank9755 on 26 November, 2020, 04:14:49 pm
What is the current situation regarding calendar events (in England)?

I had assumed they were suspended but it looks like there are quite a few open for entry.  Are they actually happening? 
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 26 November, 2020, 05:38:41 pm
There was an assumption they’d be able to resume after lockdown 2.  I guess word needs to come from the board on what they plan to allow. So any entry is on the basis a calendar event may or may not go ahead.

Tier 2 (high) has

“Exercise classes and organised adult sport can take place outdoors, but not indoors if it involves people from different households mixing.”

So I’d imagine calendar events purely in tier 2 will be allowed.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ben T on 26 November, 2020, 05:47:44 pm
But I wouldn't be able to have a wetherspoons lunch  :(
I know, PITA innit  >:(


It's a crying shame the tier 3 areas don't completely encircle the tier 2 areas, cos I'm sure someone would then immediately devise a DIY round them  :)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Tomsk on 26 November, 2020, 06:01:05 pm
What is the current situation regarding calendar events (in England)?

I had assumed they were suspended but it looks like there are quite a few open for entry.  Are they actually happening?

My assumption is that events can go ahead from 2nd December. I've heard nothing to the contrary and entries are still coming in for my Stansted Airport Express 100km on 5th, though the 50 rider limit is nearly reached and entries close soon. I just need to check out a few cafes and pubs en-route next week: some were doing takeaways when we checked the route last Sunday, so they'll at least be open for some sort of business, we'll see ...

I've a fair bit of admin to do this weekend in anticipation, allocating groups and gettting my head around the practicalities of the extensive covid safety procedures I've signed up to with AUK.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Wycombewheeler on 27 November, 2020, 09:12:15 am
There was an assumption they’d be able to resume after lockdown 2.  I guess word needs to come from the board on what they plan to allow. So any entry is on the basis a calendar event may or may not go ahead.

Tier 2 (high) has

“Exercise classes and organised adult sport can take place outdoors, but not indoors if it involves people from different households mixing.”

So I’d imagine calendar events purely in tier 2 will be allowed.
You could make a case for events passing through tier 3 as long as the controls were all in tier 2, not sure if any routes would meet this description
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 27 November, 2020, 10:37:25 am
My perm moves from tier 3 to tier 2 areas, so I guess I will keep it frozen for a little longer than anticipated
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Philip Whiteman on 27 November, 2020, 11:27:29 am
My audax on 5th December is going ahead despite the route including tier 3 Warwickshire.   Around 75% of the route is in tier 2.

In tier 3, government regulations allow for both non-contact sporting events and groups of individuals in groups of upto six socialising in outdoor public spaces. So on both counts, audaxes are not restricted.

For the control in Warwickshire, riders will still be able to use hospitality where sales by takeaway are permitted or by using normal food shops  However, riders will be warned against congregating in indoor settings.   The first control is located in tier 3 Warwickshire  but most will only make a brief stop to register their ride on the e-brevet, collect a receipt or ride straight through if using GPS tracking for evidence.  As such, it is unlikely that a substantial number of riders will be stopping to use cafes or to collect provisions.

All entrants will be set off from Droitwich (tier 2) at dispersed times over a period of sixty minutes reducing inopportune socialising of more than six people arriving at the first control in Warwickshire. Details on the tier 2 and 3 affected areas along with respective regulations for each will be sent out to entrants next week with an instruction to remain compliant to the regulations as set out by government.

AUK have not contacted me with any details to the contrary.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 27 November, 2020, 07:59:04 pm
Good luck. I think my December 200 will be a DIY. Hopefully a calendar event in Jan.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: cygnet on 28 November, 2020, 12:20:49 am
But I wouldn't be able to have a wetherspoons lunch  :(
I know, PITA innit  >:(


It's a crying shame the tier 3 areas don't completely encircle the tier 2 areas, cos I'm sure someone would then immediately devise a DIY round them  :)

I've a 200k route entirely within that London should restrictions so apply:  not yet passed by a DIY org as it's pretty silly and done to meet a specific concept.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 28 November, 2020, 11:52:04 am
My audax on 5th December is going ahead despite the route including tier 3 Warwickshire.   Around 75% of the route is in tier 2.

In tier 3, government regulations allow for both non-contact sporting events and groups of individuals in groups of upto six socialising in outdoor public spaces. So on both counts, audaxes are not restricted.

For the control in Warwickshire, riders will still be able to use hospitality where sales by takeaway are permitted or by using normal food shops  However, riders will be warned against congregating in indoor settings.   The first control is located in tier 3 Warwickshire  but most will only make a brief stop to register their ride on the e-brevet, collect a receipt or ride straight through if using GPS tracking for evidence.  As such, it is unlikely that a substantial number of riders will be stopping to use cafes or to collect provisions.

All entrants will be set off from Droitwich (tier 2) at dispersed times over a period of sixty minutes reducing inopportune socialising of more than six people arriving at the first control in Warwickshire. Details on the tier 2 and 3 affected areas along with respective regulations for each will be sent out to entrants next week with an instruction to remain compliant to the regulations as set out by government.

AUK have not contacted me with any details to the contrary.

Maybe I am being overzealous...

I had a plan to do half an Everest (it's called Basecamp, apparently), but the hill I had chosen is in a tier 2 area, and we are tier 3... so I decided to mothball the attempt for now...
There is a fair chance we will be downgraded to tier 2 at the earliest opportunity... rate is under 200 and falling right now
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 09 December, 2020, 11:17:35 am
My audax on 5th December is going ahead despite the route including tier 3 Warwickshire.   Around 75% of the route is in tier 2.

In tier 3, government regulations allow for both non-contact sporting events and groups of individuals in groups of upto six socialising in outdoor public spaces. So on both counts, audaxes are not restricted.

For the control in Warwickshire, riders will still be able to use hospitality where sales by takeaway are permitted or by using normal food shops  However, riders will be warned against congregating in indoor settings.   The first control is located in tier 3 Warwickshire  but most will only make a brief stop to register their ride on the e-brevet, collect a receipt or ride straight through if using GPS tracking for evidence.  As such, it is unlikely that a substantial number of riders will be stopping to use cafes or to collect provisions.

All entrants will be set off from Droitwich (tier 2) at dispersed times over a period of sixty minutes reducing inopportune socialising of more than six people arriving at the first control in Warwickshire. Details on the tier 2 and 3 affected areas along with respective regulations for each will be sent out to entrants next week with an instruction to remain compliant to the regulations as set out by government.

AUK have not contacted me with any details to the contrary.
This sounds like a completely reasonable set of arrangements.

And it sounds like AUK may finally be starting to just let organisers and riders get on with riding and following the law of the land themselves.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Ben T on 09 December, 2020, 02:16:53 pm
Maybe I am being overzealous...

I had a plan to do half an Everest (it's called Basecamp, apparently), but the hill I had chosen is in a tier 2 area, and we are tier 3... so I decided to mothball the attempt for now...
There is a fair chance we will be downgraded to tier 2 at the earliest opportunity... rate is under 200 and falling right now

Might want to also bear in mind that it's grown. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/mount-everest-height-china-nepal-b1767856.html
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: CrazyEnglishTriathlete on 09 December, 2020, 10:44:09 pm
Maybe I am being overzealous...

I had a plan to do half an Everest (it's called Basecamp, apparently), but the hill I had chosen is in a tier 2 area, and we are tier 3... so I decided to mothball the attempt for now...
There is a fair chance we will be downgraded to tier 2 at the earliest opportunity... rate is under 200 and falling right now

Might want to also bear in mind that it's grown. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/mount-everest-height-china-nepal-b1767856.html

I like the story of Andrew Waugh, the British Surveyor General of India, who was the first to accurately measure the height of Everest, which came to exactly 29,000 feet at the time.  Worried that a round number would cause accusations of estimation, he added two feet to the total, coming to the figure of 29,002 feet, and becoming the first person to put 'two feet' on Everest.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: giropaul on 10 December, 2020, 08:13:14 am
My understanding is that  sport and exercise guidelines are agreed between the Ministry for Media and Sport and the recognised sport representative/ governing body. This is British Cycling.
Where there is mention or organised activities, my reading is that they mean things like Bikeability or coached sessions - usually not on the public Highway.
My reading is that groups of up to 6 are allowed, keeping to a 1.5 metre separation in general. Riders can ride, and stop, within their own Tier area. They may pass through another Tier area, but should not stop, even if these Tier is the same level to the one they started in. My interpretation of stopping would be something that could involve any interaction with others outside your ride group - I don’t think mending a puncture would be seen as a transgression.
That’s my ( and others) interpretation. Others may, I’m sure, differ.

Personally I think that BC has done a decent job, other countries have much more restrictive rules. It doesn’t matter whether you are a BC member or not, they are the recognised body for cycling for Government negotiations. It is worth noting however, that if a BC member is not keeping to the guidelines, may be invalidating their insurance with them. Has anyone had any guidance from AUK ‘s insurers for a view?

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200512-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-Updated-Coronavirus-Guidance-0   
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on 10 December, 2020, 09:42:24 am
My reading is that groups of up to 6 are allowed, keeping to a 1.5 metre separation in general. Riders can ride, and stop, within their own Tier area. They may pass through another Tier area, but should not stop, even if these Tier is the same level to the one they started in.

There's absolutely nothing to back this up in either the government rules or the BC guidelines. If you live in a Tier 1 or 2 area you may treat all other Tier 1 or 2 areas like your own.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: giropaul on 10 December, 2020, 09:44:34 am
My reading is that groups of up to 6 are allowed, keeping to a 1.5 metre separation in general. Riders can ride, and stop, within their own Tier area. They may pass through another Tier area, but should not stop, even if these Tier is the same level to the one they started in.

There's absolutely nothing to back this up in either the government rules or the BC guidelines. If you live in a Tier 1 or 2 area you may treat all other Tier 1 or 2 areas like your own.

You’ll find it under the BC guidance for clubs and groups.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on 10 December, 2020, 10:12:15 am
You’ll find it under the BC guidance for clubs and groups.

Where exactly?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on 10 December, 2020, 10:23:41 am
CTT guidance has come out this morning.

Events in Tier 3 areas are banned.  Events in Tiers 1 & 2 can got ahead.   Riders, officials etc. cannot travel to an event if they live in a Tier 3 area.

There's no racing for a while but at least they have set the rules out early.

AFAICS the only limitation from AUK is the cap of 200k on distance to avoid overnight riding.   Hopefully the Spring will bring a relaxation.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 10 December, 2020, 10:24:51 am
There's absolutely nothing to back this up in either the government rules or the BC guidelines. If you live in a Tier 1 or 2 area you may treat all other Tier 1 or 2 areas like your own.
Haven't read the BC guidelines recently, but pretty sure that gov guidelines allow free movement between "areas" (just as in 2019!), EXCEPT where Tier3 is involved.

Interestingly I got my first email from CTT about this a few days ago. They make a similar point:

Tier 1/2:
Quote
... That means no-one (whether that be competitors, race officials or anyone associated with the event) should travel to the event if they live in a Tier 3 area.
Tier 3:
Quote
...  There is a limited exception to this in that Type B “club” events can be held, PROVIDED THAT everyone who competes in the event or helps out at the event, (whether that be a race official or otherwise), is from that same Tier 3 area.  People from Tier 1, Tier 2 or any other Tier 3 areas must not attend the event. It is strongly recommended that if this exception is to be relied on, the event is kept to a small scale so as to make the event and compliance with the above easier to manage


EDIT: Ha - Cross-post with Rob! I'll leave mine for authenticity, but also note the email stamp for completeness: Wed 9Dec 14:40
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: rob on 10 December, 2020, 10:37:43 am
 :)

Despite updating my e-mail address for CTT they still send newsletters to my old e-mail address which I only check every couple of days.   I just happened to be reading it when this thread restarted.

I don't expect to race before May next year so I'm hoping a lot of things will be easier by then.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: giropaul on 10 December, 2020, 01:49:54 pm
You’ll find it under the BC guidance for clubs and groups.

Where exactly?

Can my group ride pass through other areas in different tiers?

We know that many of you will often begin your ride in one area and cross into others as part of your normal routes, and this is vital to helping individuals to stay active and access quieter roads and green spaces.

Groups from ‘Medium’ (Tier 1) or ‘High’ (Tier 2) areas are permitted to pass through a ‘Very high’ (Tier 3) area as part of their route, however they should not stop for a break while in that area.

Groups from ‘Very high’ (Tier 3) areas are permitted to pass through ‘Medium’ (Tier 1), ‘High’ (Tier 2) or other ‘Very high’ (Tier 3) areas as part of their route, however they should only stop for a break while within their own area.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 10 December, 2020, 03:56:23 pm
Think you two are talking cross purposes. You can ride into another area that has the same tier level and you can stop at a cafe etc whilst there. You can ride into a higher tier area but don’t interact with anyone whilst there.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on 10 December, 2020, 04:13:50 pm
We know that many of you will often begin your ride in one area and cross into others as part of your normal routes, and this is vital to helping individuals to stay active and access quieter roads and green spaces.

Groups from ‘Medium’ (Tier 1) or ‘High’ (Tier 2) areas are permitted to pass through a ‘Very high’ (Tier 3) area as part of their route, however they should not stop for a break while in that area.

Groups from ‘Very high’ (Tier 3) areas are permitted to pass through ‘Medium’ (Tier 1), ‘High’ (Tier 2) or other ‘Very high’ (Tier 3) areas as part of their route, however they should only stop for a break while within their own area.

That's silent on whether travelling from one Tier 1 or 2 area to another (and stopping) is allowed. Since it's unambiguously allowed by government rules, it would be a huge leap for BC to add a restriction.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Rupert on 10 December, 2020, 05:27:13 pm
I think we might see a new Tier 4 after Christmas when the figures get released following all of the brain-dead party-ing!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mmmmartin on 26 December, 2020, 10:53:26 pm
I think we might see a new Tier 4 after Christmas when the figures get released following all of the brain-dead party-ing!
A post ahead of its time....
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: huggy on 31 December, 2020, 03:19:29 pm
New RRtY rules for the period from November 2020 to at least until the end of Covid-19 Tier 4 restrictions
I know how precious RRtY is to many AUK members and how emotive it can be, therefore, to be as ecumenical as possible with the current travel restriction guidance, in addition to the current restart allowance for 6 months from August 2020 these two clauses are added:
This is a solution to allow those that are able to continue riding without penalising or placing undue pressure on those unable to ride a BR.  I will be flexible with RRtY validations at this time because I do not want anyone to ride a BR 'just' to get their tick for the month.

Each series validation claim is manually handled with a little automation but mainly in my local wetware computation device.  As the validation flexibility will undoubtedly place more demand on the wetware CPU to help me out please submit series claims during this time with these considerations:Please ride responsibly and above all stay safe & healthy - RRtY will be there waiting for you on the other side!

Happy New Year and lets hope 2021 is better for everyone,
huggy
RRtY Secretary
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Socks on 31 December, 2020, 04:29:18 pm
Thanks Huggy - this seems sensible, especially given the likelihood of further changes to tiers as things develop over the next few weeks.  Hopefully this time the covid situation will at last improve by the Spring.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Spinderella on 01 January, 2021, 10:28:38 pm
 :thumbsup: Re the possibility of skipping a month for covid reasons, but being fairly new to the RRTY game would it be possible to still use a DIY I invent that stays within my tier 4 area and doesn't stray too far from home?
Appreciate the logistics of planning such a ride could be tricky (I'm new to the CIY thing too, but assume would need to carry all provisions), but is it in theory possible?

Ta muchly!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: psyclist on 02 January, 2021, 05:11:49 am
:thumbsup: Re the possibility of skipping a month for covid reasons, but being fairly new to the RRTY game would it be possible to still use a DIY I invent that stays within my tier 4 area and doesn't stray too far from home?

Yes, a DIY that stays within the boundaries of your area (which is usually your county) is permissible. A mandatory route DIY is probably the easiest to arrange for this purpose, and allows plenty of ‘non-straight’ routing to build up the distance.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 02 January, 2021, 08:52:39 am
Yes, aim for 202-205km for your DIY. Take a flask of hot chocolate with you and spare layers for when stopped.  Keep stops short, enough to have a snack and some hot chocolate and get going before you chill too much.  I have found a quick snack stop, say for a short bread finger, once an hour, works well. Then have one longer stop for something savoury.

If you want to plan a two different loops route via your home then go for it. But be aware about the inertia that can happen at home after the first loop.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: tonyh on 02 January, 2021, 09:45:52 am
Very twisty routes, and multiple-loop routes, are getting popular! With mandatory routing, and validation by GPS, they work very well. Repeated laps, as ever, aren't allowed, but you can use any loop twice by going round it in both directions.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Tomsk on 02 January, 2021, 12:31:47 pm
Fortunately Essex is BIG - especially with the lost bits added into our Tier 4 area. I covered 331 miles to roughly circumnavigate the pre-1970 county boundary in August.
I've just worked out two decent 200km routes, one consists of two loops, so back home for lunch. Only a few bonus kms needed to avoid main roads like the A414 out of Maldon or to get better A12 crossings, and all with traditional proof-of-passage, for the Luddites (ie me):

Dunmow-Saffron Walden-Copford-Southminster-Billericay-Old Harlow-Dunmow

Dunmow-Saffron Walden-Steeple Bumpstead-Colne Engaine-Dunmow-Tollebury-Stock-Dunmow

About as little wiggling around as is possible. I may have a stab at something with fewer controls, but I feel extending out to places like Harwich along with returning through Colchester) and also going further south will entail a lot of main road and urban avoidance issues.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: grams on 02 January, 2021, 12:36:22 pm
I wonder how many Londoners are coming up with silly routes and how many are giving up.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 02 January, 2021, 12:39:58 pm
These Londoners are off that treadmill for a bit.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bikeabilityman on 02 January, 2021, 02:20:54 pm
I’ve got into the habit of doing two loop 200’s, leaving home around 3am for a 110-120km loop, then home for an hour for brekky, followed by the shorter loop with maybe an outside takeaway coffee stop (more so to support them). I so miss calendar events though.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: bhoot on 02 January, 2021, 03:52:31 pm
I wonder how many Londoners are coming up with silly routes and how many are giving up.
I think one of the AC Hackney-ites did a 200km in Greater London recently, but I don't have any more details.

Basically it's pretty restrictive being stuck in Greater London as there are very few quiet or rural roads, and any route is likely to be slow (either by being on urban roads with traffic lights or being on shared used and/or busy cycle paths). Also the "two loops" idea really doesn't work well if you live in inner London as you end up cycling in the densest urban area four times!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 02 January, 2021, 05:41:13 pm
Just finished fettling my 200 for next Sat. A loop of 125km, followed by a loop of 76km. One loop inside the other.  Lunch at home in between, before my wife kicks me back out for the second loop. I’m making the second loop much shorter than first as I think that’ll make it easier to get going again if I’m wavering.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Andy Corless on 05 January, 2021, 12:35:37 am
Unsurprisingly, all AUK events in England suspended. See: https://audax.uk/news/covid-19-update-04-january-2021/

Andy Corless
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: GdS on 05 January, 2021, 10:03:41 am
surprising to me, not sure what PMBJ said last night that differs from the other devolved nations about permitted exercise
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Redlight on 05 January, 2021, 11:11:29 am
surprising to me, not sure what PMBJ said last night that differs from the other devolved nations about permitted exercise

From the government web site:

"You should minimise time spent outside your home.
It is against the law to meet socially with family or friends unless they are
part of your household or support bubble. You can only leave your home
to exercise, and not for the purpose of recreation or leisure (e.g. a picnic
or a social meeting). This should be limited to once per day, and you
should not travel outside your local area
."

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: GdS on 05 January, 2021, 11:32:26 am
That doesn't prohibit solo perms or with 1 other rider within your county. If AUK are taking the view that perms increase time spent outside to an unacceptable level fair enough but nothing there specifically precludes rides up to 200k
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: simonp on 05 January, 2021, 11:45:32 am
Exmoor is in my county, but it is certainly not in my local area.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 05 January, 2021, 11:48:00 am
surprising to me, not sure what PMBJ said last night that differs from the other devolved nations about permitted exercise

From the government web site:

"You should minimise time spent outside your home.
It is against the law to meet socially with family or friends unless they are
part of your household or support bubble. You can only leave your home
to exercise, and not for the purpose of recreation or leisure (e.g. a picnic
or a social meeting). This should be limited to once per day, and you
should not travel outside your local area
."
The government seem to distinguish between travel and exercise. I will await BC guidance on what is reasonable and necessary when it comes to cycling but I imagine it would fall somewhere between the interpretations “do not pass your village boundary” and “200km is fine”
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on 05 January, 2021, 12:00:07 pm
You'd think that by now we should all know what is meant by our 'local area'  ::-)  but I don't - but I'd assume that it doesn't extend more than 10km from my home, could be a lot less. 
10km allows you a circular ride of 31km, you'd need 7 of those (all different) to make  a 200.  You'd probably get by with 6 circuits of imperfect shape.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: tedshred on 05 January, 2021, 12:02:57 pm
https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200512-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-Updated-Coronavirus-Guidance-0 (https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20200512-about-bc-news-British-Cycling-Updated-Coronavirus-Guidance-0)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 05 January, 2021, 12:07:20 pm
Your local area is your village, town or part of the city that you live in.
 
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 05 January, 2021, 12:16:19 pm
New RRtY rules for the period from November 2020 to at least until the end of Covid-19 Tier 4 restrictions
I know how precious RRtY is to many AUK members and how emotive it can be, therefore, to be as ecumenical as possible with the current travel restriction guidance, in addition to the current restart allowance for 6 months from August 2020 these two clauses are added:
  • If you are able to ride a DiY, Perm or Calendar Brevet Randonneur to keep an active RRtY series ticking along then please feel free do so.
  • If you have an active series and genuinely cannot ride a BR, or feel it irresponsible to do so in your area, then the missed months will be handled as 'in suspension' for the purpose of RRtY validation.
This is a solution to allow those that are able to continue riding without penalising or placing undue pressure on those unable to ride a BR.  I will be flexible with RRtY validations at this time because I do not want anyone to ride a BR 'just' to get their tick for the month.

I have a series with 9 months so far, and need to do 3 more, but have not yet restarted due to lockdown stuffs. With the revised rules, do I still need to restart by February?

I don't understand what the new rules mean.

J
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: JonBuoy on 05 January, 2021, 12:36:42 pm
You'd think that by now we should all know what is meant by our 'local area'  ::-)  but I don't - but I'd assume that it doesn't extend more than 10km from my home, could be a lot less. 
10km allows you a circular ride of 31km, you'd need 7 of those (all different) to make  a 200.  You'd probably get by with 6 circuits of imperfect shape.

10k radius is 63k circumference.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 05 January, 2021, 12:51:29 pm
You'd think that by now we should all know what is meant by our 'local area'  ::-)  but I don't - but I'd assume that it doesn't extend more than 10km from my home, could be a lot less. 
10km allows you a circular ride of 31km, you'd need 7 of those (all different) to make  a 200.  You'd probably get by with 6 circuits of imperfect shape.

10k radius is 63k circumference.

So 3 loops would be sufficient for a 200. (Given you have to ride 10km to get to the loop and 10km back home at the end.)

(But that assumes there is a route that closely follows a 10km radius circle. Many places won't have that at all given the lack of roads in open countryside.)

A 25km radius would be sufficient for a 200km ride with just one loop (25 * pi * 2 = 157km + 25km to and 25km from the loop = 207km.)

25km would just about be "within an hour of home" too.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 05 January, 2021, 01:11:30 pm
You'd think that by now we should all know what is meant by our 'local area'  ::-)  but I don't - but I'd assume that it doesn't extend more than 10km from my home, could be a lot less. 
10km allows you a circular ride of 31km, you'd need 7 of those (all different) to make  a 200.  You'd probably get by with 6 circuits of imperfect shape.

10k radius is 63k circumference.

So 3 loops would be sufficient for a 200. (Given you have to ride 10km to get to the loop and 10km back home at the end.)

(But that assumes there is a route that closely follows a 10km radius circle. Many places won't have that at all given the lack of roads in open countryside.)

A 25km radius would be sufficient for a 200km ride with just one loop (25 * pi * 2 = 157km + 25km to and 25km from the loop = 207km.)

25km would just about be "within an hour of home" too.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210105/a03f02c1d3b184280eb5ec1f946c8b13.jpg)
Never really looked at the village from the air before. Fortuitous road layout.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 05 January, 2021, 01:14:25 pm
Some nutter will be along soon suggesting doing loops of sometime like the MK/National Bowl. Like anyone is silly enough to do that again and again day after day.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Hot Flatus on 05 January, 2021, 01:22:49 pm
 ;D
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: GdS on 05 January, 2021, 03:28:28 pm
Your local area is your village, town or part of the city that you live in.

Thanks that's the definition I was after. Although I won't be doing Audax rides I will certainly be going outside my town for exercise, as the March lockdown proved very quickly that that many people all walking / running / dog pulling along the same roads / footpaths* gets very crowded and not safe

If they are going to be that draconian they need to set a geographical limit like in France (2km IIRC)

* and muddy!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: giropaul on 05 January, 2021, 03:30:44 pm
Your local area is your village, town or part of the city that you live in.

Thanks that's the definition I was after. Although I won't be doing Audax rides I will certainly be going outside my town for exercise, as the March lockdown proved very quickly that that many people all walking / running / dog pulling along the same roads / footpaths* gets very crowded and not safe

If they are going to be that draconian they need to set a geographical limit like in France (2km IIRC)

* and muddy!

For some of us the “ village” = Parish? Isn’t much more than 2km at best!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 05 January, 2021, 03:42:08 pm
Your local area is your village, town or part of the city that you live in.

Thanks that's the definition I was after. Although I won't be doing Audax rides I will certainly be going outside my town for exercise, as the March lockdown proved very quickly that that many people all walking / running / dog pulling along the same roads / footpaths* gets very crowded and not safe

If they are going to be that draconian they need to set a geographical limit like in France (2km IIRC)

* and muddy!

For some of us the “ village” = Parish? Isn’t much more than 2km at best!
I am sure there will be some tweaking. Currently non essential shops can’t open apart from a click and collect service. However only leaving your home to purchase basic necessities is allowed, so those click and collect for non essential items should be very quiet.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 05 January, 2021, 03:50:55 pm

I am sure there will be some tweaking. Currently non essential shops can’t open apart from a click and collect service. However only leaving your home to purchase basic necessities is allowed, so those click and collect for non essential items should be very quiet.

On the high street today:
Robert Dyas open: WHSmith open, independent shop selling various paraphernalia from laundry baskets to brooms and pans open; independent pet shop open; Poundland open; Bike shop open; Florist open for click and collect only. All cafes open for takeaway only

Which shops exactly are not essential?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Bikeabilityman on 05 January, 2021, 04:02:22 pm
Some nutter will be along soon suggesting doing loops of sometime like the MK/National Bowl. Like anyone is silly enough to do that again and again day after day.
I think TG is gonna be busy delivering McD etc
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: IanDG on 05 January, 2021, 04:14:26 pm

For some of us the “ village” = Parish? Isn’t much more than 2km at best!

I've got about 800 metres to play with, parish does give me a small loop - fortunately I'm north of the border ;)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50804038652_06645a830a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kpnYGU)2021-01-05 (1) (https://flic.kr/p/2kpnYGU) by ian (https://www.flickr.com/photos/acf_windy/), on Flickr
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 05 January, 2021, 04:24:35 pm
On the high street today:
Robert Dyas open: WHSmith open, independent shop selling various paraphernalia from laundry baskets to brooms and pans open; independent pet shop open; Poundland open; Bike shop open; Florist open for click and collect only. All cafes open for takeaway only

Which shops exactly are not essential?

I guess you'll find out tomorrow when the legislation kicks in officially.

Many shops have tried to get around the "essential" status by sticking a fridge with a few bottles of water in the corner of the shop. That (unless it's an urban myth) allows them to classify themselves as essential and stay open.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 05 January, 2021, 04:33:22 pm

I am sure there will be some tweaking. Currently non essential shops can’t open apart from a click and collect service. However only leaving your home to purchase basic necessities is allowed, so those click and collect for non essential items should be very quiet.

On the high street today:
Robert Dyas open: WHSmith open, independent shop selling various paraphernalia from laundry baskets to brooms and pans open; independent pet shop open; Poundland open; Bike shop open; Florist open for click and collect only. All cafes open for takeaway only

Which shops exactly are not essential?
On that list only the florist is non essential, and that is why it is click and collect. Some of it comes down to personal responsibility. If a shop sells confectionery and diy goods, going there to buy diy goods to fix a leak is fine. buying a chocolate bar incidental to that that is ok. Going out to buy a chocolate bar or browse not so much.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: wajcgac on 05 January, 2021, 04:54:53 pm
Many shops have tried to get around the "essential" status by sticking a fridge with a few bottles of water in the corner of the shop. That (unless it's an urban myth) allows them to classify themselves as essential and stay open.

Not an urban myth but apparently the loophole has been closed to some at least now

Little Red Gallery (https://thelincolnite.co.uk/2020/11/lincoln-art-gallery-that-sold-toilet-paper-to-avoid-lockdown-now-forced-to-close/)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: GdS on 05 January, 2021, 05:00:07 pm
My nearest shop is a mahoosive Tesco complete with an upstairs (of which nothing could be classed as essential IIRC apart from mops and buckets etc which could easily be moved downstairs next to where barbecues etc are displayed ) but that has never closed. The whole shop has been fairly lacksadaisical since the first lockdown was relaxed and since having to wear masks has made social distancing pretty much impossible. So I tend to use Co-Op which as well as being mush less crowded has nice self serve checkouts that nobody else seems to know how to use.

And the local farm shop which has doubled in size with nice new automatic doors since lockdown
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 05 January, 2021, 06:50:20 pm
I was quite impressed by Deacthlon during the Autumn Lockdown: they had cordoned off everything bar the bike section.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on 06 January, 2021, 11:41:37 am
You'd think that by now we should all know what is meant by our 'local area'  ::-)  but I don't - but I'd assume that it doesn't extend more than 10km from my home, could be a lot less. 
10km allows you a circular ride of 31km, you'd need 7 of those (all different) to make  a 200.  You'd probably get by with 6 circuits of imperfect shape.

10k radius is 63k circumference.

To stay within 10k of home your (hypothetical) multiple loops from home would be 10k diameter, not radius.

But in any case it's now clear that the distance has to be a lot less than that.  And recreational cycling (which I take audax to be) is not permitted. Nor are multiple outings from home on one day.

I have a selection of local walks which I use - the shortest of them crosses a county boundary.  Some of the longer ones take me more than 5k from home and/or keep me out for more than 2 hours.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 06 January, 2021, 11:43:50 am
You'd think that by now we should all know what is meant by our 'local area'  ::-)  but I don't - but I'd assume that it doesn't extend more than 10km from my home, could be a lot less. 
10km allows you a circular ride of 31km, you'd need 7 of those (all different) to make  a 200.  You'd probably get by with 6 circuits of imperfect shape.

10k radius is 63k circumference.

To stay within 10k of home your (hypothetical) multiple loops from home would be 10k diameter, not radius.

Do you want to check that?

(https://www.mathsisfun.com/geometry/images/circle-rad-dia-circ.svg)

10km diameter would mean only straying as far as 5km from home.

(I think you may be thinking a 10km diameter loop starting from home, which is not what anyone else here is describing. Everyone else is describing loops of diameter X centred on their home.)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: TimC on 06 January, 2021, 11:55:43 am
10km diameter would mean only straying as far as 5km from home.

Which (IMO of course) is a reasonable interpretation of 'Stay local - within your village, town, or area of your city'.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Alismed on 06 January, 2021, 02:32:59 pm
Interesting to see the calculations here. Those of us who commute by bike are at quite an advantage. I do split shifts so 2 commutes plus some exercise plus a trip to the food shop and I should be fit enough for when we can ride events again. Other options include taking on bike delivery work, or mixing in a bit of running (please don't all lynch me at once!)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: simonp on 06 January, 2021, 05:13:41 pm
You'd think that by now we should all know what is meant by our 'local area'  ::-)  but I don't - but I'd assume that it doesn't extend more than 10km from my home, could be a lot less. 
10km allows you a circular ride of 31km, you'd need 7 of those (all different) to make  a 200.  You'd probably get by with 6 circuits of imperfect shape.

10k radius is 63k circumference.

To stay within 10k of home your (hypothetical) multiple loops from home would be 10k diameter, not radius.

Do you want to check that?

(https://www.mathsisfun.com/geometry/images/circle-rad-dia-circ.svg)

10km diameter would mean only straying as far as 5km from home.

(I think you may be thinking a 10km diameter loop starting from home, which is not what anyone else here is describing. Everyone else is describing loops of diameter X centred on their home.)

If you are doing a figure 8 route starting from home, then your route is on the circumference of each loop. I think this is what Francis is getting at.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: simonp on 06 January, 2021, 05:14:19 pm
I found this tool:

https://www.mapdevelopers.com/draw-circle-tool.php
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 06 January, 2021, 06:08:08 pm
You'd think that by now we should all know what is meant by our 'local area'  ::-)  but I don't - but I'd assume that it doesn't extend more than 10km from my home, could be a lot less. 
10km allows you a circular ride of 31km, you'd need 7 of those (all different) to make  a 200.  You'd probably get by with 6 circuits of imperfect shape.

10k radius is 63k circumference.

To stay within 10k of home your (hypothetical) multiple loops from home would be 10k diameter, not radius.

Do you want to check that?

(https://www.mathsisfun.com/geometry/images/circle-rad-dia-circ.svg)

10km diameter would mean only straying as far as 5km from home.

(I think you may be thinking a 10km diameter loop starting from home, which is not what anyone else here is describing. Everyone else is describing loops of diameter X centred on their home.)

If you are doing a figure 8 route starting from home, then your route is on the circumference of each loop. I think this is what Francis is getting at.

Yes. Isn't that exactly what I said at the end of my post?

To be clear...

Francis is thinking of a circular ride starting from home. Everyone else is thinking of a circular ride centred on their home with an initial trip out to the circle and another trip back home at the end.

With a circular ride starting from home there's a whole chunk of area that's 10km from home than you're not using.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 06 January, 2021, 07:02:20 pm
To make it painfully clear, here's the original quote:-

You'd think that by now we should all know what is meant by our 'local area'  ::-)  but I don't - but I'd assume that it doesn't extend more than 10km from my home, could be a lot less. 
10km allows you a circular ride of 31km, you'd need 7 of those (all different) to make  a 200.  You'd probably get by with 6 circuits of imperfect shape.

"10km allows you a circular ride of 31km".

That's correct if the question is "What is the largest circle shaped ride (just a circle shaped ride) that can be made without venturing more than 10km away from home?"

But that puts an odd requirement on that you're not allowed to ride anything other than the circle shape itself, which is nigh on impossible anyway given road layouts.

If the question is "What is the largest circle that can be made without venturing more than 10km away from home?" then the answer is:-

"10km allows you a circular ride of 62km (plus 20km out/back to give 82km)".

Anyway...
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: simonp on 06 January, 2021, 07:14:24 pm
To make it painfully clear, here's the original quote:-

You'd think that by now we should all know what is meant by our 'local area'  ::-)  but I don't - but I'd assume that it doesn't extend more than 10km from my home, could be a lot less. 
10km allows you a circular ride of 31km, you'd need 7 of those (all different) to make  a 200.  You'd probably get by with 6 circuits of imperfect shape.

"10km allows you a circular ride of 31km".

That's correct if the question is "What is the largest circle shaped ride (just a circle shaped ride) that can be made without venturing more than 10km away from home?"

But that puts an odd requirement on that you're not allowed to ride anything other than the circle shape itself, which is nigh on impossible anyway given road layouts.

If the question is "What is the largest circle that can be made without venturing more than 10km away from home?" then the answer is:-

"10km allows you a circular ride of 62km (plus 20km out/back to give 82km)".

Anyway...

I was thinking in the context of Audax rules that you can't use a circular route repeatedly e.g. to make up 200km by repetition. You can reverse a loop, I believe. So to avoid repeating loops you'd need multiple largely non-overlapping loops. For instance a figure 8 or a cloverleaf. Like the events from the 'uts near Ugley.

I reckon I could come up with a 200km route that fits within a 10 mile radius of here without trying too hard, but would I ride it even in normal times? Doubtful.


Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Pedal Castro on 06 January, 2021, 07:16:00 pm
I found this tool:

https://www.mapdevelopers.com/draw-circle-tool.php

I'd forgotten about this. Just used it to check my December 200 route which I had to tweak so as not to go into Cambs. It is all within 10 miles.  ;D
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: mattc on 06 January, 2021, 07:17:06 pm
This could make a FASCINATING Arrivée article!
(With a bit of work)
Title: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 06 January, 2021, 07:22:54 pm
If you are orbiting your home at 5km radius you will be clearly be 5km from home on average as the crow flies (if you ignore ascending to orbit)

If you are on a 10km diameter ride starting on the circumference your max distance from home is 10km

This is true if it is a figure of eight too, your maximum distance is 10km.

Average distance is more complex for the figure of 8  made up of two circles travelling at constant speed your average distance from home is 4 miles.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: simonp on 06 January, 2021, 07:34:10 pm
I found this tool:

https://www.mapdevelopers.com/draw-circle-tool.php

I'd forgotten about this. Just used it to check my December 200 route which I had to tweak so as not to go into Cambs. It is all within 10 miles.  ;D

Only took me 5 minutes to draw something on Strava, 5 loops heading off at different compass points. Unfortunately it crosses the Mendips 3 times.  :facepalm:

I'm hoping to make tonight's indoor workout bearable by watching the League Cup semi final.

There is another tool which does the "how far can I get in...?" problem.

https://app.traveltime.com/search/0_lng=-2.83396&0_tt=45&0_mode=cycling_ferry&0_title=New%20Inn%2C%20Compton%20Bishop%2C%20England%2C%20United%20Kingdom&0_lat=51.29026

Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: JonBuoy on 06 January, 2021, 08:15:30 pm
I have an audax-compliant 200k planned that doesn't stray more than 10k from my house (as the auk flies).  It looks quite a nice route  :P
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 06 January, 2021, 08:16:38 pm
I was thinking in the context of Audax rules that you can't use a circular route repeatedly e.g. to make up 200km by repetition. You can reverse a loop, I believe. So to avoid repeating loops you'd need multiple largely non-overlapping loops. For instance a figure 8 or a cloverleaf. Like the events from the 'uts near Ugley.

Indeed, I think the "rule" is something along the lines of:

"You should not use the same stretch of road in the same direction unnecessarily."

So the 'Uts rides don't have much of a choice as there are only 3 main routes away from the 'Uts, but they diverge as soon as they get a chance. (And none of them have ever used that loop round through Little Henham I don't think, at least looking at Veloviewer I've never ridden that bit, maybe I'll divert round there next time I'm up there.)

I reckon I could come up with a 200km route that fits within a 10 mile radius of here without trying too hard, but would I ride it even in normal times? Doubtful.

With DIYxGPS it makes it easier for some veloviewer tile bagging rides. Not quite within 10 miles but some of my rides don't have me going a huge distance away (especially if I get a train to/from a different starting point). Not sure I'd do a 200km VV tilebagging ride though, the constant direction changes and lack of real progress would sap away the motivation quite quickly.

There's something I dimly remember related to fractal geometry about the average "straight line routes" comparing on road distance (shortest route obviously) to as-the-crow-flies distance. Different countries (and different areas of individual countries) have different ratios. The worst case for a US grid style street system is sqrt(2) and best case is 1 but the average (for randomly chosen routes) is something like 1.2.

I think rural UK is also something like 1.2 as an average for random chosen routes too. Cities are often closer to 1 (assuming you don't have things like rivers without many crossings to contend with.)

Nicely planned tile bagging rides often pick off 2 tiles at a time going N/S or E/W without much deviation, and edge tiles don't cost a huge amount extra as you only need to sneak into the tile before backing out and going elsewhere, etc.

200km within 10km or so of me should be possible, probably even less, but that's because I'm in suburbia and there are a huge number of residential roads near me. If I knew how to obtain, parse and process the OSM data I'd have a go at writing something to find a really short route that avoids using the same stretch of road twice in the same direction. It just essentially boils down to a form of the Traveling Salesman Problem over a directed graph.

I did think about trying to write something similar to come up with semi-optimal VV tile bagging routes, but then I like creating those routes myself (often more than I actually like riding them). And there's no VV tilebagging right now given the current lockdown restrictions as my nearest unclaimed tile is definitely not "local" to me.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: GdS on 06 January, 2021, 09:54:32 pm
Germany have imposed a 15km limit on non essential travel in high risk areas

calculators out everyone!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: cygnet on 06 January, 2021, 10:52:08 pm
Aside from the AUK non-validations, this does have the potential to expand upon the Island Audax thread.

(For Kentish folks I got the Isle of Sheppey up to 184km but it's in a large part a tour of the housing estates)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Greenbank on 06 January, 2021, 11:28:40 pm
If I knew how to obtain, parse and process the OSM data I'd have a go at writing something to find a really short route that avoids using the same stretch of road twice in the same direction. It just essentially boils down to a form of the Traveling Salesman Problem over a directed graph.

I now can't stop thinking about doing exactly this. I don't have time (both with a busy work schedule, WFH distractions and home schooling) but it's all my brain seems to want to think about right now.

Argh.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: frankly frankie on 06 January, 2021, 11:49:11 pm
The stupid thing is that 'no repeated roads' is a completely arbitrary AUK(/RM) rule that benefits nobody.  Especially in current circumstances.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Frank9755 on 07 January, 2021, 06:46:58 am
Sorry to spoil the discussion but, in the old Tier 4 guidance - which has now obviously been superseded but still exists as a precedent - local area was defined as being county (of the modern adminstrative region which broadly corresponds to it).
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Geriatricdolan on 07 January, 2021, 07:52:50 am
This could make a FASCINATING Arrivée article!
(With a bit of work)

Indeed, although it would probably come out too late to be of use
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 07 January, 2021, 08:11:39 am
If I knew how to obtain, parse and process the OSM data I'd have a go at writing something to find a really short route that avoids using the same stretch of road twice in the same direction. It just essentially boils down to a form of the Traveling Salesman Problem over a directed graph.

I now can't stop thinking about doing exactly this. I don't have time (both with a busy work schedule, WFH distractions and home schooling) but it's all my brain seems to want to think about right now.

Argh.
I have experimented with this in the past. Getting the data if it is for a small area you can ask for it by api and get it as xml which is very easy. For more serious usage their binary format would be better but is more work. It has an interesting variable bit length representation for numbers - you can get for example 13 or 17 bit ones streamed. The main problem then with osm data is there is too much detail. The biggest part is to filter it down to some sort of navigation network by throwing away 99.99% . That part which sounds like a bit of housekeeping is the hardest bit.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Croft on 07 January, 2021, 09:32:52 am
https://twitter.com/GMCVOJohn/status/1347109676748595201/photo/1
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: simonp on 07 January, 2021, 10:21:21 am
Conditions where I have to go pour hot water onto the layer of ice on the chickens’ water are not riding conditions. Not that I’m going anywhere anyway. Only left the house this year so far to collect a prescription.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Chris S on 07 January, 2021, 10:46:04 am
Conditions where I have to go pour hot water onto the layer of ice on the chickens’ water are not riding conditions. Not that I’m going anywhere anyway. Only left the house this year so far to collect a prescription.

You can get them delivered too - then you won't need to go out at all. Better still, rig up a hose to from the hot tap to the chicken run, and you won't even need to go outside at all!  ;D

We've had a couple of days when we tried to go outside - but after a lot of freezing rain the in past week, it's hard enough to even stand up out there.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Flite on 07 January, 2021, 11:12:27 am
All academic - not riding when it's so cold I need to thaw the cat hatch with a hairdryer
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: simonp on 07 January, 2021, 11:15:32 am
Conditions where I have to go pour hot water onto the layer of ice on the chickens’ water are not riding conditions. Not that I’m going anywhere anyway. Only left the house this year so far to collect a prescription.

You can get them delivered too - then you won't need to go out at all. Better still, rig up a hose to from the hot tap to the chicken run, and you won't even need to go outside at all!  ;D

We've had a couple of days when we tried to go outside - but after a lot of freezing rain the in past week, it's hard enough to even stand up out there.

The local pharmacy were only delivering during the first lockdown to shielding people and it was late in the day. Needed to be fetched there and the .

We ran out of milk - I drank black coffee. Biggest irony was running out of cheddar. It’s literally 5 minutes away.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: phil d on 07 January, 2021, 11:40:07 am
Conditions where I have to go pour hot water onto the layer of ice on the chickens’ water are not riding conditions. Not that I’m going anywhere anyway. Only left the house this year so far to collect a prescription.

You can get them delivered too - then you won't need to go out at all. Better still, rig up a hose to from the hot tap to the chicken run, and you won't even need to go outside at all!  ;D

We've had a couple of days when we tried to go outside - but after a lot of freezing rain the in past week, it's hard enough to even stand up out there.

The local pharmacy were only delivering during the first lockdown to shielding people and it was late in the day. Needed to be fetched there and the .

We ran out of milk - I drank black coffee. Biggest irony was running out of cheddar. It’s literally 5 minutes away.

https://www.echo.co.uk/

Though no good if immediacy is key.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: bairn again on 07 January, 2021, 02:11:03 pm
I received this email at 11.11 this morning - the ability to ride some Perm / DIYs in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland but not in England appears to have been very short lived.  Definitely the correct move for multiple reasons.

 

Dear Graeme

As you know, since the introduction of national and regional lockdowns back in March, we have attempted to allow as many AUK events as possible to take place while staying in strict adherence with both the letter and spirit of the evolving government regulations and guidance. As a result, members have been able to ride a fair number of Permanent Events and some have also been able to take part in socially-distanced Calendar Events.
However, this week's introduction of much more widespread restrictions on movement and activities throughout the UK and the prevailing and UK-wide injunction to "Stay at Home" have given us no room to ride long distance. This means that we must suspend validations of all events in the UK, at least until the newly-implemented lockdowns are lifted. Naturally, we will continue to keep the situation under regular review and respond to any developments as quickly as possible, always with the aim of restarting events whenever it is feasible and safe to do so, whether on a national or regional basis.
You can keep up to date with the latest developments on the news page of the AUK web site - audax.uk/news. This mail has been sent to main members only, so please pass on the information to your household members as appropriate.
In the meantime, thank you for your continued support, which is very much appreciated by all of us on the Board, the delegates and many other volunteers who keep AUK running, and the event organisers and their volunteer staff who help out at events.
Best regards
Chris Crossland
Chair, AUK



https://audax.uk/news/covid-19-update-06-january-2021/ 
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: hellymedic on 07 January, 2021, 02:13:55 pm
Biggest irony was running out of cheddar. It’s literally 5 minutes away.

I wouldn't run out of Cheddar; I might break a bone...

IGMC
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: hellymedic on 07 January, 2021, 02:18:17 pm
I received this email at 11.11 this morning - the ability to ride some Perm / DIYs in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland but not in England appears to have been very short lived.  Definitely the correct move for multiple reasons.
<STUFF>
 

I received two copies of that text, one with the title Audax UK Membership Renewal, the other with a COVID title.

(I wasn't due to renew this year anyway)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: TimC on 07 January, 2021, 02:28:15 pm
I received this email at 11.11 this morning - the ability to ride some Perm / DIYs in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland but not in England appears to have been very short lived.  Definitely the correct move for multiple reasons.
<STUFF>
 

I received two copies of that text, one with the title Audax UK Membership Renewal, the other with a COVID title.

Me too. The first confused me!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: bhoot on 07 January, 2021, 06:14:14 pm
I received two copies of that text, one with the title Audax UK Membership Renewal, the other with a COVID title.

Sorry folks that was me trying to rush some proof reading between "real work" jobs this morning and failing dismally - I checked the content but completely missed the title. Fortunately it was only a batch of around 200-300 that went out wrong.

Apologies for any inconvenience and confusion.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: hellymedic on 07 January, 2021, 06:21:34 pm
No worries!

We appreciate all your efforts!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: tonyh on 07 January, 2021, 06:31:26 pm
Yes!

Thanks bhoot, minor puzzlement was at once removed by your update above.
 
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Davef on 07 January, 2021, 06:40:08 pm
I received two copies of that text, one with the title Audax UK Membership Renewal, the other with a COVID title.

Sorry folks that was me trying to rush some proof reading between "real work" jobs this morning and failing dismally - I checked the content but completely missed the title. Fortunately it was only a batch of around 200-300 that went out wrong.

Apologies for any inconvenience and confusion.
Could be worse. A few years ago several hundred high net worth customers of a certain bank got a letter addressed “Dear Rich Bastard”
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: TimC on 07 January, 2021, 09:35:34 pm
I received two copies of that text, one with the title Audax UK Membership Renewal, the other with a COVID title.

Sorry folks that was me trying to rush some proof reading between "real work" jobs this morning and failing dismally - I checked the content but completely missed the title. Fortunately it was only a batch of around 200-300 that went out wrong.

Apologies for any inconvenience and confusion.

I guessed it was somesuch. No sweat!
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: GdS on 11 January, 2021, 05:42:47 pm
This is interesting from Matt Hancock's briefing just now and also PMBJ being spotted cycling in Stratford 7 miles from no 10 yesterday

Hancock says meeting a friend outside could be banned if people don’t follow current rules
Q: Can I go for a walk in the park with a friend, with a takeaway cup of coffee? If it is, why are people being fined for this? And is it okay to go seven miles for a cycle ride?

Hancock says you can go and exercise with one other person, but only one other person. You should be two metres apart. And if too many people keep breaking this rule, “then we are going to have to look at it, but I don’t want to do that.” He says it is very important people do not “flex” the rule.

And he says it is okay to go for a long walk, and end up seven miles from home. But you should stay local. You should not go from one part of the country to another.


So are local DIYs back on?
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: JonBuoy on 11 January, 2021, 06:11:30 pm
It certainly looks like my 200k within 10k of my house has just got a nod of approval.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Zed43 on 11 January, 2021, 07:13:21 pm
Huh, I thought DIYs would not get homologated at all by AUK? (I don't have restrictions on how far / where I can cycle in the Netherlands)
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: quixoticgeek on 11 January, 2021, 07:15:37 pm
Huh, I thought DIYs would not get homologated at all by AUK? (I don't have restrictions on how far / where I can cycle in the Netherlands)

That was my understanding too.

I'm confused.

J
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: JonBuoy on 11 January, 2021, 07:39:18 pm
To be clear - AUK is not currently validating rides in UK.  Matt Hancock's pronouncement appears to give the nod for riding my compact 200k just for 'fun'.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: LittleWheelsandBig on 11 January, 2021, 07:40:18 pm
If you are allowed to ride a long way in your country, you can ride a DIY. AUK has shut down DIYs in the UK only.
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: GdS on 11 January, 2021, 07:53:56 pm
If you are allowed to ride a long way in your country, you can ride a DIY. AUK has shut down DIYs in the UK only.

not the UK just England; Wales and Scotland have different rules even in AUK. In England the rules (nor actually law it just states should) are that you stay within the village town or area of a city you live in for exercise.

The Prime Minister just pushed that envelope by travelling from 10 Downing St to East London to do a bike ride, vindicated by his Health Secretary who stated that this was OK as long as you didn't travel across the country

Therefore can we please go back to perms that do not leave the local area (ie mostly county based) ? seems reasonable
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: bairn again on 11 January, 2021, 08:09:37 pm
If you are allowed to ride a long way in your country, you can ride a DIY. AUK has shut down DIYs in the UK only.

not the UK just England; Wales and Scotland have different rules even in AUK. In England the rules (nor actually law it just states should) are that you stay within the village town or area of a city you live in for exercise.

The Prime Minister just pushed that envelope by travelling from 10 Downing St to East London to do a bike ride, vindicated by his Health Secretary who stated that this was OK as long as you didn't travel across the country

Therefore can we please go back to perms that do not leave the local area (ie mostly county based) ? seems reasonable

Events have been shut down across the UK. 

Events in Scotland, Wales & N Ireland were suspended from 1300 on 06/01/2021 as per https://audax.uk/news/covid-19-update-06-january-2021/

At times during lockdown the rules had diverged to reflect devolution of Health matters but since 1300 on 06/01/2021 they have been aligned over the whole UK
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: GdS on 11 January, 2021, 09:06:18 pm
ok thanks I was going on

https://audax.uk/news/covid-19-update-04-january-2021/
Title: Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
Post by: Lightning Phil on 11 January, 2021, 09:09:26 pm
Huh, I thought DIYs would not get homologated at all by AUK? (I don't have restrictions on how far / where I can cycle in the Netherlands)

That was my understanding too.

I'm confused.

J

If you can do your DIY where you are, within your regulations then AUK will validate. Just  UK where validations are stopped right now.