COVID19 and Audax UK

[Ajax Bay]

When I follow the link it goes straight to section 9, paragraph 1 do not touch front of covering or part that has touched mouth or nose - check
Paragraph 2 once removed store in plastic bag until you have an opportunity to wash... - this could be taken to imply wash after every use
Para 3 make sure you clean surfaces the covering has touched and don't put on cafe table - well duh
Para 4 wash regularly and follow instructions for the fabric.  -  personally I think after every use goes beyond regularly,  which implies one a day at most.
I suppose the last section of section 5 "when removing... wash in line...." could mean after single use,  but then they could make a very clear statement once - "do not reapply a removed covering" which would cover all those other cases with more certainty

Current Audax UK Behaviour Code [ https://audax.uk/media/2181/england-behaviour-code.pdf ]
"You should wear a suitable face covering when required to do so, e.g. if entering retail premises. If you propose to continue cycling afterwards and find the face covering uncomfortable, you should dispose of it safely, or store it in a sealable plastic bag. If you need to use a face covering later in the ride, you should use a different new or clean one."
I appreciate that this passage has been replicated probably verbatim, from a BC behaviour code, and maybe we just leave it out there.
The 'do not reuse' direction (follow this behaviour code) is actually not in line with WHO advice and does not reflect the real 'Coping with COVID-19' world (fine in hospitals with medical grade masks where there's increased risk for both wearer and those around). Does the London commuter carry half a dozen masks in their handbag, one for every time? No. And nor will long distance cyclists.
I suggest the use it and bag it / bin it guidance has been pulled across from medical mask use without being moderated by considerations of practicality and the different environments.
WHO - https://www.who.int/images/default-source/health-topics/coronavirus/clothing-masks-infographic---(web)-logo-who.png?sfvrsn=b15e3742_16
WHO also recommend "People should NOT wear masks when exercising".
Essentially: use face covering, remove and bag, and reuse, and in due course for non-disposables eg buff or lovingly crafted home-made one, clean.
Here's a proposed revised text for Audax UK to use in an amended 'Behaviour Code':
"Maintain hygiene standards. In particular, wash or disinfect your hands regularly and before and after using any shops, toilets or other facilities. You should carry with you a tube or container of an appropriate alcohol-based handwash gel for use in circumstances where the use of soap and water is not possible. You should wear a suitable face covering when required to do so, e.g. if entering retail premises. If you propose to continue cycling afterwards and find the face covering uncomfortable, Afterwards you should dispose of it safely, or store it in a sealable plastic bag for reuse as necessary. If you need to use a face covering later in the ride, you should use a different new or clean one."

[FifeingEejit]

The wash dire tly after use for reusable masks comes directly from government advice on the matter. So little choice for it to be repeated ver stom down the chains of advice.

The practicalities on the other hand...

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[Davef]

The Auk guidance could say “wear a mask in accordance with government regulation and advice in the region(s) the ride is taking place” like it might say “abide by the Highway Code” without detailing what exactly that entails.

[Frank9755]

The Auk guidance could say “wear a mask in accordance with government regulation and advice in the region(s) the ride is taking place” like it might say “abide by the Highway Code” without detailing what exactly that entails.

Brilliant!

[mattc]

The Auk guidance could say “wear a mask in accordance with government regulation and advice in the region(s) the ride is taking place” like it might say “abide by the Highway Code” without detailing what exactly that entails.

It  sounds so simple doesn't it?

[teethgrinder]

The Auk guidance could say “wear a mask in accordance with government regulation and advice in the region(s) the ride is taking place” like it might say “abide by the Highway Code” without detailing what exactly that entails.

I think that's all it needs.
It does seem odd that I could ride consecutive 200s but not a longer event. I could still ride my 400km route for example by entering as 2x200s. I don't know why riding a longer event is a problem.
The restaurants are packed now with the, "Eat out to help out," promotion. Weekends are busy too. People are staying in hotels. What is so wrong with riding an Audax >200km?

[Panoramix]

Honest question. What's the tangible benefit/purpose for people wanting their ride validated?

It’s more a benefit to audax UK. The more people ride long distance without validation, the less they will care about it (validation). It may lead the situation in France where for many riders, brevets just become an activity every four years to qualify for PBP etc.

In France we don't have so many long rides organised and it is a shame IMHO, I miss living in Bristol as I could take part in long distances ride whenever I wanted to, even during the winter.
So  although the website and the marketing hype they try to generate baffles me, AUK is a brilliant club as it provide around the year "social" long distance rides without all the non sense attached to sportives.

[frankly frankie]

Essentially: use face covering, remove and bag, and reuse, and in due course for non-disposables eg buff or lovingly crafted home-made one, clean.

If you use a buff with a large distinct pattern it's relatively easy to rotate it with each use giving at least 4 'clean' (over the mouth/nose) re-uses.

[Lightning Phil]

The idea of not reusing masks after taking them off until you wash them off is similar to not reusing hankies. By wearing the mask you have hopefully trapped all the nasties on the inside. Once it has been in your pocket there maybe nasties all over including the outside so the next time you put it on it is not effective. Folding it in half to keep the inside inside would help a little.

As my face covering is a buff folded in half, the inside only touches the inside, but even if I somehow put it back on inside out, the "nasties" if there were any woukd still be on the mask. The mask is not a 100% virus proof barrier but the benefit is achieved by massively reducing exhalation velocity. Are you suggesting that any virus particles on my buff will be resuspended on the air by me breathing the wrong way through it, and spread as far as if I had not been wearing it?. I would hope no one will be touching it.

Also if I keep my buff on all the time and just raise/lower as required this issue goes away too. Bit warm for that today though.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own#maintaining-and-disposing-of-face-coverings point 9. When you take your face covering off, put it in a sealed bag until you wash it.

What’s the science behind that?

[Davef]

The Auk guidance could say “wear a mask in accordance with government regulation and advice in the region(s) the ride is taking place” like it might say “abide by the Highway Code” without detailing what exactly that entails.

I think that's all it needs.
It does seem odd that I could ride consecutive 200s but not a longer event. I could still ride my 400km route for example by entering as 2x200s. I don't know why riding a longer event is a problem.
The restaurants are packed now with the, "Eat out to help out," promotion. Weekends are busy too. People are staying in hotels. What is so wrong with riding an Audax >200km?

The original reason given was at the time overnight stays were not allowed and to ride more than 200 if using the full value might require overnighting. At the time I pointed out that overnight stays were provisionally pencilled in for start of July in England and mid July for the rest.

[Davef]

The idea of not reusing masks after taking them off until you wash them off is similar to not reusing hankies. By wearing the mask you have hopefully trapped all the nasties on the inside. Once it has been in your pocket there maybe nasties all over including the outside so the next time you put it on it is not effective. Folding it in half to keep the inside inside would help a little.

As my face covering is a buff folded in half, the inside only touches the inside, but even if I somehow put it back on inside out, the "nasties" if there were any woukd still be on the mask. The mask is not a 100% virus proof barrier but the benefit is achieved by massively reducing exhalation velocity. Are you suggesting that any virus particles on my buff will be resuspended on the air by me breathing the wrong way through it, and spread as far as if I had not been wearing it?. I would hope no one will be touching it.

Also if I keep my buff on all the time and just raise/lower as required this issue goes away too. Bit warm for that today though.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own/face-coverings-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own#maintaining-and-disposing-of-face-coverings point 9. When you take your face covering off, put it in a sealed bag until you wash it.

What’s the science behind that?

The mask if working well (and the wearer has covid) is collecting virons inside. After some time it will be quite a source of infection -  so you seal it in a bag and wash your hands. Although this keeps the contents safe it also means you have a bag full of covid with a mask in. if you get it out again it is possibly worse than no mask at all.

[Lightning Phil]

Got any links to the peer reviewed science to define sometime and the evidence of quite a source of infection (to others)?  I’m looking for the science not idle pondering and speculation by DaveF of YACF.

For instance an audaxer may go into say three shops on a 200km ride. They spend 5 mins in each. Is the covering now quite a source of infection? 

[teethgrinder]

The original reason given was at the time overnight stays were not allowed and to ride more than 200 if using the full value might require overnighting. At the time I pointed out that overnight stays were provisionally pencilled in for start of July in England and mid July for the rest.

Yes and that's all changed now. People are staying in hotels. Campsites are open. Restaurants are busy. I could ride any distance without doing anything worse than the rest of the general public, can't I?

[FifeingEejit]

Got any links to the peer reviewed science to define sometime and the evidence of quite a source of infection (to others)?  I’m looking for the science not idle pondering and speculation by DaveF of YACF.

For instance an audaxer may go into say three shops on a 200km ride. They spend 5 mins in each. Is the covering now quite a source of infection?

None of the government websites that state to wash after every use seem to be quoting studies, but you can start on the assumption that this is allowing for the worst case until evidence to the contrary is provided.  Which is the general route that's been taken.

[grams]

On the awkward forum it's been revealed that AUK have suddenly had to shop for a new insurer during all this, and the abundance of caution has been part of trying to impress the new one.

Which makes a bit more sense.

[bairn again]

On the awkward forum it's been revealed that AUK have suddenly had to shop for a new insurer during all this, and the abundance of caution has been part of trying to impress the new one.

Which makes a bit more sense.

Yes Im sure its been the mother and farther of insurance renewals. 

[FifeingEejit]

Aye that must have been a major ball ache, I noted indication of how long it took to find someone to insure as well.

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[Davef]

Got any links to the peer reviewed science to define sometime and the evidence of quite a source of infection (to others)?  I’m looking for the science not idle pondering and speculation by DaveF of YACF.

For instance an audaxer may go into say three shops on a 200km ride. They spend 5 mins in each. Is the covering now quite a source of infection?

There is little or no evidence about reuse of face masks and so the the recommendations of government and WHO are based on a cautious approach. The references at the end of https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/extended-use-or-re-use-of-single-use-surgical-masks-and-filtering-facepiece-respirators-a-rapid-evidence-review/ provide some but reusable face masks are a new thing and so most studies are on reusing single use masks in a ppe shortage. The govt guidance about after removing a face mask and putting it a plastic bag and leaving it there until you wash it is generic advice. My idle pondering is only about why the govt guidance is exists. The guidance could of course be much more complicated and cover scenarios such as multiple short trips into shops.

[Lightning Phil]

Got any links to the peer reviewed science to define sometime and the evidence of quite a source of infection (to others)?  I’m looking for the science not idle pondering and speculation by DaveF of YACF.

For instance an audaxer may go into say three shops on a 200km ride. They spend 5 mins in each. Is the covering now quite a source of infection?

None of the government websites that state to wash after every use seem to be quoting studies, but you can start on the assumption that this is allowing for the worst case until evidence to the contrary is provided.  Which is the general route that's been taken.

The new worst case scenario suit for entering shops on an audax.

[Davef]

I had some reusable masks from Wilco that weigh 9g each and pack away to very small volume - about the same as a tyre lever. I paid a £1 each. There are only more expensive and I suspect thicker ones showing on Wilco website now as there seems to be a move to multilayer masks. On a multi day ride recently each night I was just putting them all in the hotel sink and pouring a kettle of boiling water over them and leaving them for a few minutes. After 5 days they were knackered and I binned them. I also had a more robust mask - I think a few of them would be better. The other practical issue was that you are not meant to use masks if they are wet but you also want them easily accessible. The final consideration is how easy they are to put on with numb hands (and possibly a helmet)

[perpetual dan]

For instance an audaxer may go into say three shops on a 200km ride. They spend 5 mins in each. Is the covering now quite a source of infection?

I don't have any references to cite, but I'm not called Dave...
Take a bit of fabric, add breath, sweat, suncream, snot and a bit of food / drink that was around my mouth from eating while riding. Touch with hands that have been on my bike and picking up goods handled by others in a shop. Repeat in a few locations and brew in a pocket in the sun / rain for 12 hours (maybe longer, we're all keen to do longer rides after all). Then put it round my mouth and hands one last time and sit down to eat. Seems pretty manky to me. 

[Ajax Bay]

For instance an audaxer may go into say three shops on a 200km ride. They spend 5 mins in each. Is the covering now quite a source of infection?

Take a bit of fabric, add breath, sweat, suncream, snot and a bit of food / drink that was around my mouth from eating while riding. Touch with hands that have been on my bike and picking up goods handled by others in a shop. Repeat in a few locations and brew in a pocket in the sun / rain for 12 hours (maybe longer, we're all keen to do longer rides after all). Then put it round my mouth and hands one last time and sit down to eat. Seems pretty manky to me. 

Dan - you've missed out the hand washing before and after entering a 'retail outlet' (requiring face covering).
"Wash hands (with carried sanitiser). Fit fabric over mouth. Add breath, sweat, suncream, snot and a bit of food / drink / saliva that was around my mouth from eating while riding.  Pick up goods possibly handled by others in a shop (same as you do at home).  Touch face covering with hands that have been recently cleaned and remove, and bag. Repeat in a few locations and brew in a pocket in the sun / rain for 12 hours (maybe longer, we're all keen to do longer rides after all) [Comment: heat is thought to reduce viral efficacy aiui.] Clean hands (with carried sanitiser) then put it round my mouth and hands one last time and sit down to eat, without the face covering on (obv)."

FTFY. I reckon my hands will be a lot cleaner following the current AudaxUK Behaviour Code than ever before. And, entering a shop, I bet they're a lot cleaner than 90% of the shop's other customers (unless it's a shop which has provided a hand wash station outside - not 'normal for Devon').

If a rider is pre-symptomatic or asymptomatic then most exhaled viral load will be captured by the face covering (designed not to protect but to achieve 'source control') and any escaping viral load will be 'slowed down' so physical distancing is the reasonable risk mitigation for that. And the rider will then reuse that face covering several times (with the same/satisfactory (source control) protective function). They can't infect themselves, can they? And if the rider is not in that category (ie is not infected) then there will be no viral load on the face covering (source control) so reusing offers no risk.

The Auk guidance could say “wear a mask in accordance with government regulation and advice in the region(s) the ride is taking place” like it might say “abide by the Highway Code” without detailing what exactly that entails.

Yes, Dave, that's much better than my clumsy attempt to improve the AudaxUK code and will not need to be changed if government regulation/guidance changes. Bespoke guidance always risks different interpretations and 'discussion'. But if we can just revert to gov/local 'authority' then an individual - riding or just during daily activity - can just get on with it.

[perpetual dan]

For instance an audaxer may go into say three shops on a 200km ride. They spend 5 mins in each. Is the covering now quite a source of infection?

Take a bit of fabric, add breath, sweat, suncream, snot and a bit of food / drink that was around my mouth from eating while riding. Touch with hands that have been on my bike and picking up goods handled by others in a shop. Repeat in a few locations and brew in a pocket in the sun / rain for 12 hours (maybe longer, we're all keen to do longer rides after all). Then put it round my mouth and hands one last time and sit down to eat. Seems pretty manky to me. 

Dan - you've missed out the hand washing before and after entering a 'retail outlet' (requiring face covering).
"Wash hands (with carried sanitiser). Fit fabric over mouth. Add breath, sweat, suncream, snot and a bit of food / drink / saliva that was around my mouth from eating while riding.  Pick up goods possibly handled by others in a shop (same as you do at home).  Touch face covering with hands that have been recently cleaned and remove, and bag. Repeat in a few locations and brew in a pocket in the sun / rain for 12 hours (maybe longer, we're all keen to do longer rides after all) [Comment: heat is thought to reduce viral efficacy aiui.] Clean hands (with carried sanitiser) then put it round my mouth and hands one last time and sit down to eat, without the face covering on (obv)."

FTFY. I reckon my hands will be a lot cleaner following the current AudaxUK Behaviour Code than ever before. And, entering a shop, I bet they're a lot cleaner than 90% of the shop's other customers (unless it's a shop which has provided a hand wash station outside - not 'normal for Devon').

If a rider is pre-symptomatic or asymptomatic then most exhaled viral load will be captured by the face covering (designed not to protect but to achieve 'source control') and any escaping viral load will be 'slowed down' so physical distancing is the reasonable risk mitigation for that. And the rider will then reuse that face covering several times (with the same/satisfactory (source control) protective function). They can't infect themselves, can they? And if the rider is not in that category (ie is not infected) then there will be no viral load on the face covering (source control) so reusing offers no risk.

Fair enough, I missed the bit about hand washing. Maybe if we all use enough hand sanitiser the masks will be cleaned by handling?
The "one last time" was intended to reflect the post-ride food purchase, and the act of transferring from mask to mouth and hands just before eating - not using the face mask as a sieve for my meal
Anyhow, quite apart from covid, what I described sounds like school science experiment in breeding germs (in a way that reusing a mask in one shopping trip, then washing, isn't).

I suspect flapping a reused mask about in the shop doorway or wearing it inside out compared to previous use make a mask less effective at reducing the spread of covid, but I lack the proof on how much.
I also suspect that enforcing the use of fresh masks isn't the main limiting factor in the current audax arrangements, but again lack any proof.
Adding layers of interpretation on the muddle from the English government feels like a distraction

[stefan]

Some major announcements from tonight's AUK board meeting here:

https://audax.uk/news/covid-19-update-13-august-2020/

Time to get planning 

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Finally the AUK Board is getting somewhere. Long perms (up to 600km nominal) available from 15th August, the season finishing at the end of October and possibly some calendar brevets (up to 300km nominal) running from the beginning of September.