COVID19 and Audax UK

[sojournermike]

whereas Perms could proceed under external exercise Rules.

Wishful thinking. I don't think there is any alternative to a total ban on validations during lockdown. Remember "stay at home" and "don't travel".

I do remember those but for the imminent English 'lockdown' I also read:

This means you must not leave or be outside of your home except for specific purposes. These include:

...to exercise outdoors or visit an outdoor public place - with the people you live with, with your support bubble or, when on your own, with 1 person from another household.

I can work with that.

As I said, wishful thinking.. I would be very surprised (and somewhat disappointed) if AUK did go ahead allowing validations during these 4 weeks... it would show a willingness to look for loopholes, rather being part of the solution, which would be out of character. I do not wish to belong to an organisation that looks for loopholes for selfish purposes.

This is a very fair and valid point. We are clearly allowed to cycle or run from our own homes for as long as we like. We don’t need validation to exercise or enjoy our sport, so we can be seen to be a part of the solution.

[grams]

I will continue to ride my bike to the shops to buy my daily provisions. The fact that I will do only 10km there and back is irrelevant. Going to a shop that sells essential goods is perfectly reasonable.

We're talking about audaxing specifically.

The new rules for England say:

shopping for basic necessities, for example food and medicine, which should be as infrequent as possible

So riding 100 km from home and going into a shop to but a Twix either because you're hungry or because you need a receipt, seems incompatible with the guidelines, particularly the last bit.

(riding 100 km and buying a cupboard full of groceries for the week seems fine. Ditto clicking-and-collecting your Twix, or buying a takeaway)

Provided you rode to the start of course

You're allowed to travel to "visit an outdoor public place". I'd say a perm course counts.

[Geriatricdolan]

Going out for a long bike ride where you encounter no other humans is fine; encouraging going out on a long bike ride is fine. Going into shops etc (either for supplies or validation) is the only thing I see that's problematic.

Identical discussions were carried out during the first lockdown and AUK decided to suspend validations. I don't see why this time they should act differently.
There has been no change of risk assessment for DIY and perms, as far as I am aware and there is no obligation to be "self reliant". So, the expectation is that randonneurs will go a long way and they will stop in shops in areas which are far away from their postcode, all of which is against the rules, as I understand (don't travel outside your area).

Then I am sure it is perfectly possible to do 200 km, whilst staying in your area and obeying all the rules with a bit of imaginative mapping, but AUK cannot monitor that... so no validations is the only grown up option.

[FifeingEejit]

Identical discussions were carried out during the first lockdown and AUK decided to suspend validations. I don't see why this time they should act differently.

Validations should have been stopped for all of the UK when NI went into lockdown then.

[Geriatricdolan]

Identical discussions were carried out during the first lockdown and AUK decided to suspend validations. I don't see why this time they should act differently.

Validations should have been stopped for all of the UK when NI went into lockdown then.

Since it's unlikely that you start a DIY in NI and end up in England, I would say there was no reason to stop them in England? But maybe I am wrong and it's actually quite a common thing to do...

If Scotland is not in lockdown, then good on them and validations can continue there... that seems a pretty straightforward way of applying the rules

[FifeingEejit]

Identical discussions were carried out during the first lockdown and AUK decided to suspend validations. I don't see why this time they should act differently.

Validations should have been stopped for all of the UK when NI went into lockdown then.

Since it's unlikely that you start a DIY in NI and end up in England, I would say there was no reason to stop them in England? But maybe I am wrong and it's actually quite a common thing to do...

If Scotland is not in lockdown, then good on them and validations can continue there... that seems a pretty straightforward way of applying the rules

Yes, but your talking about AUK not Audax England or Audax Wales, we're Validations officially stopped in NI (even though AUK a' rely exists there) and Wales?

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[bairn again]

Identical discussions were carried out during the first lockdown and AUK decided to suspend validations. I don't see why this time they should act differently.

Validations should have been stopped for all of the UK when NI went into lockdown then.

Wise words. 

Anyhow, Im going to cycle to Aberdeen next Saturday for as long as the Scottish Government guidelines permit it, regardless of AUK validation. 

[grams]

Identical discussions were carried out during the first lockdown and AUK decided to suspend validations. I don't see why this time they should act differently.

At the time the situation was much less clear and the government were making (informal) recommendations about limiting duration of exercise. Validation was suspended because it was prudent until the situation became clearer, not because it was necessarily required.

all of which is against the rules, as I understand (don't travel outside your area).

In England at least there is no such rule - you can travel as much as you want as long as it's for one of the listed purposes. The guiding principle is to "reduce our day-to-day contact with other people".

[GdS]

Calendar events are a decision for the Grown Ups, and I'm so pleased that is their decision not mine.
But perms are OK, from my reading of the rulz.
So a GdS perm will be fine, but only from my reading of the govt statement. Valuation by GPX track as usual so no receipts. Take sarnies and water.
But seems it can be done.

Provided you rode to the start of course

I don't think so; the new rules* state you may travel to an outdoor place as long as you only meet one other person outside your household. Although the polis may have a job defining that as a necessary journey

* given that a lot of this is leaked rather than what PMBJ said on telly last night. More will come to light once Parliament debates / agrees it.

[Geriatricdolan]

In England at least there is no such rule - you can travel as much as you want as long as it's for one of the listed purposes. The guiding principle is to "reduce our day-to-day contact with other people".

This is not my understanding... what I got out of yesterday's Boris blurb was "don't travel unless it is absolutely necessary".

Which is very different from "stay at home unless it's one of the following reasons..." going out of the door and travelling are treated separately. To give you an example, I think it would be against the rules to travel to a supermarket 50 miles away because it's cheaper or because it has your favourite brand of chocolate digestives, which you can't find in your area...

But as you can see, we get into the "interpretation of the rules" territory, which I think AUK should absolutely steer clear of

[Greenbank]

* given that a lot of this is leaked rather than what PMBJ said on telly last night. More will come to light once Parliament debates / agrees it.

No need to wait, a lot of the info was already out there yesterday evening:-

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-national-restrictions-from-5-november

[FifeingEejit]

Think the biggest problem is Boris has gone at told you whats happening last night
He's still to set it before parliament where it could be voted down, or significantly changed by amendments.

So not only are you left with a bumbly description of what he's wanting to be set out, you've not really got anything to go and look at as the SI doesn't get published until passed by parliament (acts go through a series of drafts).

I noted Starmer is still shouting about a UK wide lockdown when NI and Wales are on their way out of theirs already going by the data and Scotland's increase has been flattened off without one.

Political shambles.

Edit: Crossposted with Greenbank who's pointed to government docs

[Geriatricdolan]

Think the biggest problem is Boris has gone at told you whats happening last night
He's still to set it before parliament where it could be voted down, or significantly changed by amendments.

Parliament will approve. Labour have already said they are going to support and there aren't enough Tory rebels to make an opposition... so it's basically a done deal...
Nobody really wants to delay things any further for political reasons at this stage

[FifeingEejit]

Think the biggest problem is Boris has gone at told you whats happening last night
He's still to set it before parliament where it could be voted down, or significantly changed by amendments.

Parliament will approve. Labour have already said they are going to support and there aren't enough Tory rebels to make an opposition... so it's basically a done deal...
Nobody really wants to delay things any further for political reasons at this stage

True, doesn't mean it'll go through wholesale as written, though I guess since it's largelly a rehash of the original English lockdown rules from the spring and it has a number of the learnings since then covered in it (like kids playgrounds remaining open because the risk in them is vanishingly small) it should get through with little more than opposition grandstanding, it would also be an assumption it will be under EVEL.

[citoyen]

Think the biggest problem is Boris has gone at told you whats happening last night
...
Political shambles.

See, this is why I don’t watch the tv statements. Always seem to cause more confusion than anything.

For actual information, go straight to source.

I can’t see that continuing to validate perms and diys is in any way contravening the rules or exploiting loopholes - and that’s not for selfish reasons since I’m ambivalent about the matter and happy to abide by whatever the AUK board decide.

[phil d]

Having read what Boris said last night, and thinking long and hard, I have come to the conclusion I have no option but to cancel Upper Thames, which was the first calendar event post-lockdown2. I had over 100 entries (and well-established procedures to cope with those numbers at start and finish with proper social distancing). All entrants will get an email from me in the next few hours.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

A pity but not surprising. Such is life. Perms will keep AUK going in the meantime.

[Geriatricdolan]

I can’t see that continuing to validate perms and diys is in any way contravening the rules or exploiting loopholes - and that’s not for selfish reasons since I’m ambivalent about the matter and happy to abide by whatever the AUK board decide.

That's because you have convinced yourself that spending 12 hours outside of the house is an acceptable form of exercise and does not contravene the "stay at home" default position.

And then of course you must have come to the conclusion that cycling long distance and travelling are somewhat different. How would you feel about someone going for a 12 hour drive across a few counties, stopping 4-5 times to buy food from shops along the way? Acceptable?

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Given that I can easily do various 100km routes out of my house without needing to stop for water or anything else, what is wrong with a DIY 200 combining two such routes? The answer is 'nothing'.

[Jethro]

I am beginning to wonder how AUK might cope with this whole situation longer term.

Clearly, many event organisers are not going to put their events on until such time that we see a big change in the way forward such as a vaccine so will everyone be happy to renew their membership in the next few weeks when there are no events to enter?

Personally though, I am still happy to renew just to receive my copy of Arrivee which I always love to read.  The editors are continuing to do an excellent job in producing it but with a potential loss of membership income will it still be viable to print and send it out each quarter?

[Geriatricdolan]

Personally though, I am still happy to renew just to receive my copy of Arrivee which I always love to read.  The editors are continuing to do an excellent job in producing it but with a potential loss of membership income will it still be viable to print and send it out each quarter?

Likewise... I have no plans to go back to doing Audax for the foreseeable future, but the magazine is worth the membership alone

[citoyen]

I can’t see that continuing to validate perms and diys is in any way contravening the rules or exploiting loopholes - and that’s not for selfish reasons since I’m ambivalent about the matter and happy to abide by whatever the AUK board decide.

That's because you have convinced yourself that spending 12 hours outside of the house is an acceptable form of exercise and does not contravene the "stay at home" default position.

I haven’t “convinced myself” of anything. I have done no audaxing this year and am unlikely to do any in the next few months, so I am not swayed by any preference on the matter.

How would you feel about someone going for a 12 hour drive across a few counties, stopping 4-5 times to buy food from shops along the way? Acceptable?

You’re making a host of rash assumptions here. And frankly I’m not interested in rehashing all the silly arguments over this so will leave it at that.

[Von Broad]

Having read what Boris said last night, and thinking long and hard, I have come to the conclusion I have no option but to cancel Upper Thames, which was the first calendar event post-lockdown2. I had over 100 entries (and well-established procedures to cope with those numbers at start and finish with proper social distancing). All entrants will get an email from me in the next few hours.

Bad luck Phil, difficult to justify anything else really.
100 entries? Not bad given the circumstances.
Hopefully catch you next year.

[Redlight]

Personally though, I am still happy to renew just to receive my copy of Arrivee which I always love to read.  The editors are continuing to do an excellent job in producing it but with a potential loss of membership income will it still be viable to print and send it out each quarter?

Likewise... I have no plans to go back to doing Audax for the foreseeable future, but the magazine is worth the membership alone

I'll pass those comments on to Ged Lennox who, I know, will be very appreciative.

We certainly have the financial resources to continue publishing Arrivee for the foreseeable future and, if anything, it's even more important to do so now than in normal times.

And, of course, we still need a steady flow of articles and photographs....

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

General Validations haven't been paused for the Welsh or Northern Irish lockdowns though so the precedence is set.
The only thing I read about no validation in Wales was from CET saying which of his perms were off, but then im not in Wales and don't think there was a general announcement (if there was I didn't see the email)

There is no legally enforceable travel restrictions in Scotland (and the guide allows exercise based travel) , and Wales is reopening mid November.

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My reading of the Welsh announcement was that travel was only allowed into and out of lockdown council areas if necessary for work, medical purposes, etc, so, as I would not want to encourage someone to break laws (or even guidelines in this area) it made sense to suspend those rides where the routes went into a lockdown council area, and then all Cambrian Permanents when Wales went into lockdown.

I guess that if Wales emerges from lockdown the week after next, then that might change the situation (as most but not all of the Cambrian permanents are entirely in Wales), but I would obviously have to follow any central guidance from AUK.