Author Topic: COVID19 and Audax UK  (Read 113865 times)

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #650 on: 01 November, 2020, 10:20:37 pm »
If audax is more than exercise and should be banned, the all the "virtual" runs are outwith the spirit of running for exercise and will have a huge clamp placed on them too.
Didn't happen in lockdown 1 if anything they were encouraged.

Again, there's a difference between a run (where you will remain relatively local) and an Audax where you could end up 100km+ away from home. Part of the restrictions are about remaining local.

Sure some people can do cloverleaf loops that mean they are never more than 25km away from home and don't have to visit shops or toilets other than their own home and have no interaction with other humans, but AUK can't guarantee that will happen for EVERYONE if they continue to validate 200km+ DIYs and Perms. That's one of the reasons they suspended validations last time round.

As for AUK's stance. I guess we'll see what it is. The same arguments were made for/against validation in the previous lockdown and everyone seemed to accept the decision made by AUK to suspend validations then. A grown up organisation would also extend the validation periods of things like SRs so that people can still claim "consecutive SRs" even though they may not have completed everything required in the 2020 season/calendar year just like the RTTY season was extended for the particular poor January in 2010. It's swiftly forgotten, records are adjusted and people get on with it.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #651 on: 01 November, 2020, 10:28:00 pm »
Everybody accepted AUK’s overly-cautious position last time. Don’t assume that the same would hold true again, now that there is more knowledge of what actually increases transmission risk.

There were quite a few long distance records achieved during ‘lockdown’. They were celebrated, not decried. A few perms don’t rate.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/jul/31/i-ran-out-of-excuses-lockdown-raises-the-bar-for-uk-ultrarunners

The UK government could be specific, like the French, and give a maximum radius and duration that people can travel outside their home. They haven’t.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

C-3PO

  • Human-cyborg relations
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #652 on: 01 November, 2020, 10:37:13 pm »
How would you feel about someone going for a 12 hour drive across a few counties, stopping 4-5 times to buy food from shops along the way? Acceptable?
This is exactly what the Prime Minister's highest adviser in the land did, and then had the cheek to say he drove 50 miles to check his eyesight. So if it's OK for him to do that it's OK for me to ride 60 miles on my bike without speaking to anyone.. ....

Multiple wrongs do not make a right.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #653 on: 01 November, 2020, 10:38:33 pm »
You are not reading the room C-3PO.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

C-3PO

  • Human-cyborg relations
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #654 on: 01 November, 2020, 10:39:28 pm »
This, with bells on.  If people want to use a generality to shut down something that has been specifically allowed, or to make up rules that don't exist, they can go get fucked.

This is NOT excellent!

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #655 on: 01 November, 2020, 11:01:51 pm »
FWIW, my reason for cancelling Upper Thames was not because I think the new "rules" preclude anyone from riding any distance they want (though for myself, I wouldn't want to ride a 200 without the opportunity for an occasional cafe stop at which I can natter to my fellow riders). My concerns were the number of unnecessary journeys <snip>

All in all, it was not a comfortable decision; I took it with a heavy heart. <snip>

As an entrant, I believe you made the right call.  I personally wouldn’t be riding, simply because I don’t think it’s in the spirit of what the country needs right now.

I’ll do a shorter, closer to home ride, or maybe stick to the turbo.  Hell, I may even ride the gps route as a virtual ride on my smart trainer just for the LOLs 😂

Geriatricdolan

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #656 on: 02 November, 2020, 06:42:22 am »
This is turning into a debate on whether or not we should go for a 200 km ride during a lockdown, which is not what this is about.

It is about whether AUK should validate such endeavour, or in other words endorse it. It would be counter productive for AUK to do so, with severe repercussions in terms of image or even liability. We have to bear in mind that validation is more than just a sticker, there is a third party insurance associated with it.

I have no doubt BC will advise against all organised riding during lockdown and that includes audax... and I have no doubts AUK will follow the lead on this.
That unless there is some form of U-turn or softening of the lockdown which allows all outdoor sport activities to go ahead as before.

Geriatricdolan

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #657 on: 02 November, 2020, 07:12:53 am »


There were quite a few long distance records achieved during ‘lockdown’. They were celebrated, not decried. A few perms don’t rate.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/jul/31/i-ran-out-of-excuses-lockdown-raises-the-bar-for-uk-ultrarunners



I read the article. All the feats discussed were done over the summer. There was no lockdown during the summer, as much as people still used the word to describe the watered down set of rules carried over from spring.
The same feats, if performed in April, would have raised eyebrows at the very least.

We are about to enter a new lockdown, April style


LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #658 on: 02 November, 2020, 07:38:20 am »
Everybody accepted AUK’s overly-cautious position last time. Don’t assume that the same would hold true again, now that there is more knowledge of what actually increases transmission risk.

SNIP

The UK government could be specific, like the French, and give a maximum radius and duration that people can travel outside their home. They haven’t.

How about including the bits you left out?

We know a lot more about actual transmission factors now and this lockdown is less restrictive than the first, so it is appropriate for AUK perms by household members to continue.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Davef

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #659 on: 02 November, 2020, 07:54:24 am »
Exercise is to be encouraged and riding your bike on your own is a very covid safe way of doing this. I would have thought that AUK should be promoting this (whilst making it clear you should be self sufficient for example taking food and drink with you).

There are a lot of newcomers to running and cycling and with gyms closing again another batch might be appearing. I would like to see AUK considering how to encourage progression to long distance cycling.

I agree the government guidance is contradictory if you interpret exercise by bicycle or on foot to be “unnecessary travel”.  Exercise can be as frequent as you wish but travel as infrequent as possible. Also If the “minimise the time spent out of the home” applied to exercise, this would contradict the explicit encouraging of exercise.

Geriatricdolan

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #660 on: 02 November, 2020, 08:30:13 am »

I agree the government guidance is contradictory if you interpret exercise by bicycle or on foot to be “unnecessary travel”.  Exercise can be as frequent as you wish but travel as infrequent as possible. Also If the “minimise the time spent out of the home” applied to exercise, this would contradict the explicit encouraging of exercise.

I don't think anyone in government knows about audax and I accept the risks involved in the activity are for the most insignificant.

But that is not the issue. If all activities were to look for ways to carry on as normal, then the very essence of the message would be diluted to insignificance. That's why a respectable organisation, such as AUK, has to lead the way and be seen doing the right thing... even if that makes xxckall difference to the outcome of the pandemic.

rob

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #661 on: 02 November, 2020, 08:36:18 am »
Unsurprisingly there is zero traffic on the AUK forum.  I suspect that they will need to see the full set of rules and guidance from BC.

As for the rest of the debate I'll say the same thing I said to an ex-clubmate who took great exception to me riding outdoors during lockdown 1.   What you can't do is make up your own set of additional rules and then tell me that I have to abide by them.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #662 on: 02 November, 2020, 08:38:20 am »
Carrying on as normal would be calendar brevets with 100+ riders starting at the same time and socialising indoors. Limited distance perms (no overnights) ridden with household members or one other is adjusting to match the English restrictions.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Davef

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #663 on: 02 November, 2020, 08:42:12 am »

I agree the government guidance is contradictory if you interpret exercise by bicycle or on foot to be “unnecessary travel”.  Exercise can be as frequent as you wish but travel as infrequent as possible. Also If the “minimise the time spent out of the home” applied to exercise, this would contradict the explicit encouraging of exercise.

I don't think anyone in government knows about audax and I accept the risks involved in the activity are for the most insignificant.

But that is not the issue. If all activities were to look for ways to carry on as normal, then the very essence of the message would be diluted to insignificance. That's why a respectable organisation, such as AUK, has to lead the way and be seen doing the right thing... even if that makes xxckall difference to the outcome of the pandemic.
I am not suggesting anything carries on as normal. A normal audax is coffee stops punctuated with a bit of cycling and generally a socially interactive event for most. That is not the only form of long distance cycling. I did the London marathon at the beginning of the month - it was not normal. I feel organisations should be finding ways of promoting exercise whilst staying within both the spirit and the letter of the law.

Geriatricdolan

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #664 on: 02 November, 2020, 08:45:58 am »
Unsurprisingly there is zero traffic on the AUK forum.  I suspect that they will need to see the full set of rules and guidance from BC.

As for the rest of the debate I'll say the same thing I said to an ex-clubmate who took great exception to me riding outdoors during lockdown 1.   What you can't do is make up your own set of additional rules and then tell me that I have to abide by them.

Sometimes, you have to be seen doing the right thing... see it as a quid pro quo. Let's say that for instance CTT decided to carry on as normal, as after all there is no mixing, there is social distance and all of that... how will then a request for a road closure for a National event be received by the local authorities next year?

Do the right thing, be seen leading the way making positive change and you'll be rewarded... or otherwise, be seen ignoring the lockdown because you think it doesn't apply to your activity and you'll face the consequences... might be LEL not be allowed to go ahead in 2022 or brevets be subject to stricter rules on risk assessment, to make them unviable for organisers...

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #665 on: 02 November, 2020, 08:49:51 am »
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

rob

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #666 on: 02 November, 2020, 08:56:20 am »
Unsurprisingly there is zero traffic on the AUK forum.  I suspect that they will need to see the full set of rules and guidance from BC.

As for the rest of the debate I'll say the same thing I said to an ex-clubmate who took great exception to me riding outdoors during lockdown 1.   What you can't do is make up your own set of additional rules and then tell me that I have to abide by them.

Sometimes, you have to be seen doing the right thing... see it as a quid pro quo. Let's say that for instance CTT decided to carry on as normal, as after all there is no mixing, there is social distance and all of that... how will then a request for a road closure for a National event be received by the local authorities next year?

Do the right thing, be seen leading the way making positive change and you'll be rewarded... or otherwise, be seen ignoring the lockdown because you think it doesn't apply to your activity and you'll face the consequences... might be LEL not be allowed to go ahead in 2022 or brevets be subject to stricter rules on risk assessment, to make them unviable for organisers...

Other than hill climbs there's no other CTT events that require road closures.   TTs returned to the roads before audax this year.

Anyway the same clubmate that took offence to me riding outdoors simply said 'can't you see it's wrong ?'.   And I couldn't.

There is what is explicitly written in the rules - unlimited outdoor exercise - and there's the bit you're making up.   

marcusjb

  • Full of bon courage.
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #667 on: 02 November, 2020, 09:26:54 am »
Carrying on as normal would be calendar brevets with 100+ riders starting at the same time and socialising indoors. Limited distance perms (no overnights) ridden with household members or one other is adjusting to match the English restrictions.

This is on the money. Events do encourage unnecessary travel amongst other challenges as above.

Perms should continue but with the onus being on riders to abide by the 'must stay in primary residence' and 'ride with only your household or one other when alone' restrictions.

Anyway, outside of audax, I wish us all well on what will be a challenging winter; get out there and enjoy your time outdoors, whether on foot or awheel.
Right! What's next?

Ooooh. That sounds like a daft idea.  I am in!

Davef

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #668 on: 02 November, 2020, 09:27:16 am »
Unsurprisingly there is zero traffic on the AUK forum.  I suspect that they will need to see the full set of rules and guidance from BC.

As for the rest of the debate I'll say the same thing I said to an ex-clubmate who took great exception to me riding outdoors during lockdown 1.   What you can't do is make up your own set of additional rules and then tell me that I have to abide by them.

Sometimes, you have to be seen doing the right thing... see it as a quid pro quo. Let's say that for instance CTT decided to carry on as normal, as after all there is no mixing, there is social distance and all of that... how will then a request for a road closure for a National event be received by the local authorities next year?

Do the right thing, be seen leading the way making positive change and you'll be rewarded... or otherwise, be seen ignoring the lockdown because you think it doesn't apply to your activity and you'll face the consequences... might be LEL not be allowed to go ahead in 2022 or brevets be subject to stricter rules on risk assessment, to make them unviable for organisers...
Promoting exercise, outdoor exercise in particular, is a key government goal and doing the right thing is important. It is not a binary choice between stopping everything and carrying on as normal. Organisations need to find the correct middle ground.

Geriatricdolan

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #669 on: 02 November, 2020, 09:49:08 am »
Anyways, being the proud owner of a permanent that spans across 5 counties and that to my knowledge nobody has ever completed without stops at commercial outfits, I will not validate it during lockdown, regardless of AUK's position on the subject...

it is my prerogative after all

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #670 on: 02 November, 2020, 09:51:54 am »
Your objection is to people likely visiting shops during the ride rather than the ride itself?

That's at least a reasonable position and arguably supported by the rules. But the solution to that is to encourage/require GPS validation and self-sufficiency rather than suspending validation altogether.


Davef

COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #671 on: 02 November, 2020, 09:54:08 am »
You could even check the gpx for loitering in the vicinity of shops.

Edit: or if more old school, ban locks and require a sign on the bike saying “if left unattended feel free to help yourself”

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #672 on: 02 November, 2020, 10:06:15 am »
The government guidance seem pretty clear: that organised events would be problematic but solo rides are approved of and, if anything, encouraged. 

I don't plan any 200km+ rides before the spring and AUK validation is not a major motivator for me.  But I think it would be against both the letter and the spirit of the guidance for AUK to suspend DIY validation for those who do want to.

I will do rides up to maybe 150km (either solo or as pilot for my blind tandem partner which I think will still be allowed).  I'll carry enough food and water so that I don't have to stop anywhere.  But I generally do that anyway as I dislike stopping so it's not a hardship.

Wycombewheeler

  • PBP-2019 LEL-2022
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #673 on: 02 November, 2020, 10:12:18 am »
Your objection is to people likely visiting shops during the ride rather than the ride itself?

That's at least a reasonable position and arguably supported by the rules. But the solution to that is to encourage/require GPS validation and self-sufficiency rather than suspending validation altogether.
Agreed,  and now we are into November and the cost weather,  less water is required on a ride.  Its quite easy to carry enough calories for 200km, caring water is more difficult.

Of course while we are talking about non essential visits to a shop for water/a Twix/receipt off licenses are still keen selling only non essentials.

Stopping in multiple different shops in a day is clearly unreasonable, stopping in one shop is questionable (particularly if it is far from home, or on an area with a different risk level)

But it is possible to ride 200km without any human contact at all.  I trialed this in April or May,  with 2 750ml bidons and a 3l camelbak. It is definitely within the abilities if most audax riders to ride 100km carrying what they need, and so complete 200km as a figure of eight ride.

It seems that there are two arguments against
1) unnecessary shop visits, self sufficiency is possible, and other measures against transmission exist.
2) virtue signalling, no actual risk is identified,  but we people want validation to stop as if it will somehow earn brownie points from anyone outside of the sport.

Of course anyone is entitled not to ride,  or not to validate their own events but applying their own additional rules to everyone is a different question. 

Eddington  127miles, 170km

Wycombewheeler

  • PBP-2019 LEL-2022
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #674 on: 02 November, 2020, 10:16:54 am »
FWIW, my reason for cancelling Upper Thames was not because I think the new "rules" preclude anyone from riding any distance they want (though for myself, I wouldn't want to ride a 200 without the opportunity for an occasional cafe stop at which I can natter to my fellow riders). My concerns were the number of unnecessary journeys, with many of the entrants coming from Greater London and the Midlands, as well as from closer to the start, and more particularly the number of entrants, at over 100, would make it difficult to argue the numbers interacting at the start and finish. This despite the careful planning that I had done to spread start times over a 1 1/2 hour period. And it is unclear whether I would have been able to have any helpers other than my wife.

All in all, it was not a comfortable decision; I took it with a heavy heart. Interestingly I have had many responses from the email I sent to entrants this afternoon telling them it was cancelled. Not one has indicated any criticism of the decision. One is going to ride it anyway as a perm (starting near his home), which I think is great
While it was disappointing,  I don't feel there was even a decision here.  Calendar Events will be banned, all you would have done is delay confirmation of what is the right decision

Eddington  127miles, 170km