End of NHS dental treatment..?

[andyoxon]

What do you reckon? 

I've been receiving NHS treatment for decades, but several weeks ago everyone at the dental practice received a letter saying 'can't get NHS dentist - stopping NHS tr'mt - you can stay but need to go private - here's a payment plan if wanted'.  Mrs ao's dental practice only have NHS treatment for children & special needs.  Two other local dental ps 'not taking NHS patients'.

So that's that, finally it's well and truely collapsing.   

[toontra]

Mine has a theoretical NHS service - in as much as they'll do a check-up at NHS rates if you're already on their books.  But if you want/need any actual treatment then all they offer is private - not even the "Well I could do it on the NHS but it would be crap" that they tried for the previous 30 years.

[andrewc]

My local dentist still treats me as an NHS patient, but I don't think they are accepting new patients.      My sister has had to sign up to some monthly plan which I think only covers regular check ups, not any actual work.......


I'm walking distance from Liverpool Dental Hospital so can always let the students practice on me if things get desperate....

[toontra]

I'm walking distance from Liverpool Dental Hospital so can always let the students practice on me if things get desperate....

I had a lot of pretty invasive surgery done at the Eastman in London by trainees.  It was quite a faff and involved long waits.  Sad to say all the treatments eventually failed, including several re-root canals and 2 apicoectomies (don't even ask how unpleasant they are!), and all the treated teeth needed extraction.

I suspect I was of more use to them as a willing participant in their training than they were to me as a patient.  If I'd had the money at the time, in retrospect I would have skipped to the chase and had the implants that I needed eventually anyway - they were done privately and have been excellent with 100% success rate.

[telstarbox]

If it helps dentists don't have catchment areas so you might need to look wider (agree that it's a sorry state of affairs). We currently drive 45 mins to our old one but they are good.

[Sergeant Pluck]

I doubt if the thought of doing anything “on the NHS” has crossed my dentist’s mind for years. And the dentist before that.

[barakta]

We have some NHS provision but it's downright shoddy and they'll shift you to private on the sly, lie about what (private) treatment you need and the reception staff at 2 places were rude, scary and horrible.

I also can't seem get any dentists to stop doing things which are anti-deaf awareness (babbling constantly at high speed, refusing to turn radio/TV off, refusing to remove their mask to talk to me before/after treatment). Given each 'checkup' was making me ill for 3 days with stress and migraines, and they insist on checkups all the time, it wasn't tenable for me to "just cope" so I've given up.

It's a complete mess and I am scared of medical care going the same way.

[andrewc]

I'm walking distance from Liverpool Dental Hospital so can always let the students practice on me if things get desperate....

I had a lot of pretty invasive surgery done at the Eastman in London by trainees.  It was quite a faff and involved long waits.  Sad to say all the treatments eventually failed, including several re-root canals and 2 apicoectomies (don't even ask how unpleasant they are!),

After one local dentist couldn't get all of the nerve out during a root canal he arranged for it to be done as an apicoectomie by the senior bod in Liverpool as a demonstration for students.  Of course there was a fire evacuation and everyone ended up in the car park with mouths stuffed with dressings to soak up the blood. Thankfully they hadn't started on me yet!  The procedure was actually painless & I've still got the tooth. 

[toontra]

After one local dentist couldn't get all of the nerve out during a root canal he arranged for it to be done as an apicoectomie by the senior bod in Liverpool as a demonstration for students.

Therein probably lies the difference in outcome - you had the top bod and I had the students 

[hellymedic]

I've had private dental treatment for the past 30 years; it's one of those 'luxuries' I've been rich enough to afford.

The chap who treated us on the NHS as kids was excellent.

He went 'private only' on us when I was in my early teens and I then refused to see an NHS dentist locally, when I twigged they were paid on piecework and therefore incentivised to do both unnecessary and shoddy work. I had some NHS work later but again mostly refused dentists till a boyfriend persuaded me to attend the dental hospital in Sheffield. I had extensive work there, by qualified staff as I was a medic, and most of that work has lasted over 40 years.

I attended an NHS dentist in the Midlands in the mid '80s on my boss's recommendation and most of that stuff came to bits.

Some student work by the dental hospital in Leeds seems to have been durable.

I then didn't see a dentist for 7 years and returned to the privatised dentist of my childhood in London. He didn't actually fnd much to do at that point, but provided routine maintenance untill he retired at the age of 70 about 20 years ago.

I've attended another private dentist since. Most of the work seems durable and cosmetically acceptable.

My partner has a local NHS dentist, but seems to be getting quite a lot of private treatment there. It's very much a two-tier service, sadly.

[rafletcher]

I'm walking distance from Liverpool Dental Hospital so can always let the students practice on me if things get desperate....

Which is, effectively, how my wife and I get NHS denatl treatment (and have done for the last 20+ years). The practice owner has an interest in training, and takes students from the various London dental schools - Guy's, Queen Mary's, King's - for vocational training for 6-12 months at a time. Those students provide the practice NHS care. OK, ther's no continuity usually, most only do 6 months stints, but OTOH they are very up to date with treatments, and if ever they have a problem / query they're encouraged to get one of the two partners down to have a look see and advise. Ive had a couple of root canals with them which have thus far stood the test of time.

I recognise we're VERY fortunate, we get get good treatment at a relatively low price (and much of my previous NHS dentistry has been of the "meatball" variety). We found the practice by accident when my wife broke a tooth on Christmas Eve and needed emergency treatment. There used to be another NHS practice in Tring, but it's now part of "mydentist" and isn't taking adult patients on under NHS any longer. No other local dentist entertains NHS treament and haven't for years.

[rogerzilla]

Private is cheaper for me because I can have one check up a year instead of the pointless two demanded by the NHS.  My dentist doesn't do the hygienist thing, another pointless activity.

If treatment is needed it does cost a bit more, but I've had two fillings in 35 years, current cost just over £100.

[L CC]

We still have an NHS denitist. We just have to go all the way to Redcar for it. This isn't as bad as my daughter who travels from Suffolk to her dad's at Kemble for hers. (The dentist might be in Swindon). Our practise's SOP seems to be taking on newly qualified dentists from Newcastle's dental school and keeping them for us NHS plebs for a couple of years. They then either leave or get 'promoted' to doing private work.

[alfapete]

In the current situation is having an NHS dentist desirable, even? It's more important to have a caring dentist.

NHS dentists can be caring but the extra time required to provide both decent treatment, be fully compliant with all types of legislation AND be caring makes it entirely financially impossible. The really caring dentists left the NHS years ago on the basis that providing dentistry at the standard they aspired to was more important than the particular system of admin that surrounded it. At least, that's what I told myself.

Restricting NHS dentistry to those exempt from charges would be one way forward but is unappealing politically to those held responsible.

[L CC]

In the current situation is having an NHS dentist desirable, even? It's more important to have a caring dentist.

NHS dentists can be caring but the extra time required to provide both decent treatment, be fully compliant with all types of legislation AND be caring makes it entirely financially impossible. The really caring dentists left the NHS years ago on the basis that providing dentistry at the standard they aspired to was more important than the particular system of admin that surrounded it. At least, that's what I told myself.

Restricting NHS dentistry to those exempt from charges would be one way forward but is unappealing politically to those held responsible.

You don't have to be 'exempt' for the charges to be unaffordable. You used to not have to pay when pregnant or in the first year afterwards- that's not means tested, it's needs tested. I'd much rather we had a decent wage for dentists providing NHS services for everyone who wanted them, rather than pushing them into providing private only services because they're more lucrative.

[sam]

I reckon it's the end of it for us.

A couple of years ago we snagged what appeared to be a good NHS dentist. He soon did a runner and that was that. It was just as well, as it turns out he wasn't as competent as we'd thought, but that's a tl;dr story...

You can see people snipe hunting for them on local FB groups.

We've since discovered a most excellent private chap about an hour's drive away whom we're happy to entrust with our chompers; if only I could get a discount for not possessing a full set – no wisdom teeth for a start, and I'm also lacking premolars or lateral incisors or somesuch (I really should pay more attention when they tell me these things). This doesn't even include the two I lost at the bottom of a trip from the top of a tree in my youth.



Both were capped, but one of those came out about a decade ago and I didn't bother replacing it, not being one for toothy smiles anyway.

In the 90s and early noughties we used to go to our old dentist in New York, who was truly the best dentist the world has ever seen. Before raising your eyes at our carbon footprint, note that it was always made part of the standard trip home to see relatives (so timing was everything!).

[mrcharly-YHT]

In the current situation is having an NHS dentist desirable, even? It's more important to have a caring dentist.

NHS dentists can be caring but the extra time required to provide both decent treatment, be fully compliant with all types of legislation AND be caring makes it entirely financially impossible. The really caring dentists left the NHS years ago on the basis that providing dentistry at the standard they aspired to was more important than the particular system of admin that surrounded it. At least, that's what I told myself.

Restricting NHS dentistry to those exempt from charges would be one way forward but is unappealing politically to those held responsible.

My father in law was a dentist.

The highlighted bit is utterly correct.

NHS dental payments mean it isn't financially viable for a dentist to be NHS-only.

[hellymedic]

Private is cheaper for me because I can have one check up a year instead of the pointless two demanded by the NHS.  My dentist doesn't do the hygienist thing, another pointless activity.

If treatment is needed it does cost a bit more, but I've had two fillings in 35 years, current cost just over £100.

I don't agree the hygienist is pointless, for some.

Partner's NHS dentist mandates hygienist. Partner builds up much scale and his teeth look much better after he attends. This scale can cause/exacerbate gum disease, which causes more tooth loss than decay in older adults, so it's worth keeping under control.

I don't seem to make much scale.

[hellymedic]

Burnishing amalgam fillings seems to make them last longer but I've never had this done in a community NHS setting.

This does make me feel NHS dentistry is cheap & nasty...

[SteveC]

Our dentist, whom I've been with for over 20 years now (and MrsC several years before that) would have preferred to stay with the NHS.
The crunch came when one of the partners retired and they could not replace him. They had one applicant who was full of 'wanting to support the NHS' at the interview, but who then took a job with a private practice anyway. As a result, they felt they had to go private and are now part of Denplan.
From our dentist's professional point of view (I assume there were financial advantages as well) being private has meant he is paid to do the sort of job he always wanted and tried to do when with the NHS. A small piece of remedial work now rather than a bigger piece of work in the future. Effectively he's on a fixed price contract rather than time and materials for each filling.
As for hygienists, his comment to me when he went private was, 'you don't need to see the hygienist, but it won't do any harm and having someone who knows what they're looking at checking your teeth four times a year will catch any nasties earlier rather than later. The last time I saw him, he told me that, much like Helly mentioned, getting rid of the scale can prevent some gum disease, particularly as we get older. Dental treatment of older people is a bit of a new field as so many more of us still have quite a few of our own teeth well into later life.

[Cudzoziemiec]

If you drink a lot of black tea, as I do, the hygienist prevents you looking like a 40-a-day smoker. Or would if I remembered to go.

I'm not sure about NHS dentistry being paid by piecework leading to pointless things; mine never wants to do anything.

[hellymedic]

If you drink a lot of black tea, as I do, the hygienist prevents you looking like a 40-a-day smoker. Or would if I remembered to go.
I'm not sure about NHS dentistry being paid by piecework leading to pointless things; mine never wants to do anything.

The contracts and pay schemes have changed since I was 14, 50 years ago.

My then newly formed permanent teeth still bear the legacy of shoddy piecework.

Mum (87) still has most of her teeth and her ancient parents in Copenhagen still had some natural teeth when they died.

On the other hand, when I started medical school in 1976, one in three adults over the age of 16 in England  had no natural teeth.

Conserving teeth is relatively new to British culture; my refugee grandmother walked out on the English dentist who told her she'd need all her teeth out, in 1940. She found a Continental dentist and kept some teeth for around another 50 years.

[toontra]

My mother had all her teeth removed as a sort of dowry just before her marriage at the age of 22.  This was Scotland in 1941.  Scarcely believable but apparently a fairly common practice in her community.

My teeth were drilled to destruction in my early to mid teens  - all on the NHS    Once I could afford it, it cost me many thousands in implants to get a semblance of how teeth should look.

[hellymedic]

My mother had all her teeth removed as a sort of dowry just before her marriage at the age of 22.  This was Scotland in 1941.  Scarcely believable but apparently a fairly common practice in her community.

My teeth were drilled to destruction in my early to mid teens  - all on the NHS    Once I could afford it, it cost me many thousands in implants to get a semblance of how teeth should look.

I think dental clearance and full dentures were a common 21st birthday present in the North of England 'to save all that trouble later', for at least 60 years into the 20th century.

NHS 'tombstone teeth' were A Thing.

This cake has just appeared on my Facebook feed: not recommended for those with dental heebie-jeebies.

(click to show/hide)

The 'union dentist' 'One out, all out' philosophy was commonplace too.

[andrewc]

Yes, both my parents (Liverpool & Scotland) had all of their teeth removed "to save trouble later".  Full dentures for all of their adult lives.


And I'm certain that a lot of the fillings I had as a teenager were not really necessary.