Yet Another Cycling Forum
General Category => On The Road => Topic started by: andygates on 23 November, 2011, 06:55:53 pm
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I've been driving way too much lately, and I need to vent about these bloody super-bright blinkies.
They're always aimed at driver's eye height.
They're so demanding of attention that they draw it away from the rest of the road.
They don't really tell where the rider is, they just white out a window with a bit of damp on it. All I can tell is that there must be an air raid 'cos the Blitz lights are on.
They're just bloody rude.
Look, I know you Fenix-lovers like to play the escalation game, but ffs, these things are hostile. You're not even making yourself safer: by drawing my attention too your god-awful retina-fucking death lamp, I'm more likely to fuck up.
You don't want my ton of death wagon to fuck up, so STOP BLINDING THE BLOODY VEHICLE OPERATOR YOU DIV!
:demon:
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<sits down with a bag of popcorn>
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^ ^ ^ ^
What Mr Andygates said!
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The "zap em in the eyes to be sure they see ya" technique was valid back in the days of bulbs.
With great power comes great responsibility.
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Yeah, there was one behind me all the way down Walworth Road the other day. It was like he had somehow stuffed the blinding light of rapture in a baked bean can and sellotaped it to his handlebars. He was probably setting off epileptics all the way south to Croydon. Any closer and they would have been pillars of salt. I am not sure whether it was the light flashing or the world around me switching on and off.
He did have a driver yell at him at the lights in Camberwell that he was dazzling everyone. Ambassador to cycling that he was, he told the driver to driver to fuck off. No Ferrero Rocher at the diplomats reception for him. I asked him to tone it down at the lights beside Kings. I believe he made a non-complimentary comment of a nature liable to cause offense.
Fortunately, I had a hungry shark that I shoved over his head like a furiously fishy hat and it ate him. Consider yourself judged, tossjam.
The moral of the story is that people with stupid bright lights should turn 'em down. This applies to German car drivers too, who I'd like to blast with a gigawatt orbital laser. There's always a brighter light, my little teutonic tugboats.
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The flash mode isn't needed nowadays. It comes from the very early diode lights that weren't quite as bright as the old Ever Readys with filament bulbs.
Anyone remember the 3 diode Vista lights? Many cyclists wouldn't use them, saying that they were not bright enough. I did use them because they were very reliable and gave very good run times as well as only needing AA batteries instead of giant D cells.
Then along came flashing rear lights. The Vista 5 diode was almost as bright as an Ever Ready filament bulb light, but had a flash mode. It was around this time, early to mid 1990s when diode lights really started to take off and flashing rear lights were becoming common. They needed flash mode to compensate for their lack of lumens.
Since then, diode lights have come a very long way. I stopped using flash mode years ago, probably more like a decade. When you've got a half, or even one watt diode, flash is just overkill, unless it's daytime and foggy.
I've heard a lot of anecdotes that drivers find it much harder to judge the distance of a flashing light than a constant. Most of those comments came from keen cyclists.
I like my one watt Smart rear light. It's super bright, but instead of using flash mode to save batteries, I can put it on dim mode, which is still plenty bright enough. I use full blast most of the time, but never flash mode, it's just unnecessary. If it annoys people, then that's no good thing!
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Complete reliquishment of all soverign powers and full integration to the Euro Zone is the answer to this [as long as we can keep our beer], then the French can muscle in and get their way and we'll all be ruled by PBP-Brussels.
[Knees down and prays hard].
[Note to self - stay away from this thread while under the influence]
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My new Magicshine needs a dip setting for sure.
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I've heard a lot of anecdotes that drivers find it much harder to judge the distance of a flashing light than a constant. Most of those comments came from keen cyclists.
I can verify that too. Sometimes it really can be difficult. Then the cry goes up 'ah, so you've seen me then, which is a good thing'. Wrong. What's happened is: I could see you anyway, all that's happened now is my judgement's impaired, and I can't actually see as well as I could because I have this *&£$*&^$( Circus in front of me. That is not a good thing.
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<nominates Andy Gates for Bike Lighting Tzar>
Oh, and when you're on a fecking organised ride, deliberately routed down fecking quiet roads (including "Quiet Lane" signs), they are at least doubly annoying.
p.s. I did not know the Smart 1W had a dim mode - I've never had a dim mode on a rear light, but had thought this is just what the newer bright lights need :thumbsup: decent battery life again!
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I'm not really entitled to an opinion on the brightness of rear lights due to my red insensitivity, but having done more and more night riding I'm increasingly thinking that anything brighter than the ubiquitous Smart 1/2W is overkill in everything but serious fog. If you want to be more visible, I reckon you're better off trying to cover more area[1] (so multiple lights, or something like a Fibre Flare) than with a single point LAZER OF DETH.
I think flashing has a legitimate use to mark you as 'cyclist', especially if you're riding something of an unconventional shape (you really don't want your trike mistaken for a car in the distance), but should ideally be used in combination with a static source.
I like the Radbot because I think the 'throbbing' is much less offensive than a standard on/off flash, but I understand that its peak brightness isn't something you want in your eye at point blank range. I've deliberately fettled a bracket to mount it as low as possible, so it disappears behind the bonnet of the car behind at junctions, and to keep it below the eyeline of other cyclists.
[1] On which note, lights with 'Knight Rider'-style funky disco scrolling patterns can easily be proven pointless by viewing from a few tens of metres back. If you've got n LEDs, the best visibility comes from lighting n of them at the same time, either statically or in an all-on/all-off flash sequence. I know it looks cool up close, but it's pointless.
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Having ridden (and helped lead) more than a few FNRttC's, I can attest to what Andy is saying in the OP.
I stopped looking over my shoulder to see how the ride was doing some while ago.
Why?
The visual information coming back wasn't in the least bit helpful in letting me know what's going on behind, in addition to seriously fouling up my ability to see where I was going for some time after I'd faced forward again.
Nowadays I assess what's going on with the ride once I've reached one of the many stopping points and am off the bike for a few minutes.
Not so much Turnham Green - more Turn 'em down - and that applies to Xenon / High Intensity Discharge armed motorists as well.
It really does err into 'F*ck-you-I-can-see-where-I'm-going-so-I-don't-give-a-monkey's' territory.
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<nominates Andy Gates for Bike Lighting Tzar>
Oh, and when you're on a fecking organised ride, deliberately routed down fecking quiet roads (including "Quiet Lane" signs), they are at least doubly annoying.
p.s. I did not know the Smart 1W had a dim mode - I've never had a dim mode on a rear light, but had thought this is just what the newer bright lights need :thumbsup: decent battery life again!
I think the dim mode may refer to the rider rather than the lamp.
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The visual information coming back wasn't in the least bit helpful in letting me know what's going on behind, in addition to seriously fouling up my ability to see where I was going for some time after I'd faced forward again.
It's a lot less annoying when viewed in a mirror. I always forget this when first riding an upwrong at night.
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Wot Andy said.. dazzled by two cyclists tonight.
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With great power comes a need to have a good beam pattern, including a cropping of photons going upwards. All the torches appear to have a round beam pattern which severely compromises their qualities for use on the road.
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If a rider has only one lamp, a steady lamp is easier for other road users to position. It gets done by driver autopilot, normally. This applies to front and rear. Other road users are, after all, used to looking for other lit vehicles, which have steady big bright white lights front and red lights rear.
A blinky alone takes me a few blinks to target. A lot of the time I think I'm resolving their position by non-lamp cues (the luminous frock, often: retro-reflective really is very perspicuous).
I get a pair of uncomfortable impressions from just-blinky riders. If they're just rocking the death-blink up front, they're the confrontational, quote-the-highway-code-at-you type. A small part of me wants to bop them on the nose for being tossers. If they're just rocking a blinky red, or two, or seven, in a bandolier, they're the apologetic please-mister-driver-don't-kill-me type, and they almost annoy me more with such a conspicuous display of weakness.
Man, am I cranky tonight.
Fibreflares are pretty good, actually, though I don't think they're significantly better than a strip of red retro tape -- definitely not £30 better. I love retro, it never runs flat and it weighs nothing.
Full-on mental deep-sea creature lighting is a whole other game. That's the Pinkie Pie of the road, and like fibreflares, it's all just accessorizing. So long as it doesn't confuse your location or dazzle the operator of the death machine you want to avoid, knock yourselves out. :)
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With great power comes a need to have a good beam pattern, including a cropping of photons going upwards. All the torches appear to have a round beam pattern which severely compromises their qualities for use on the road.
Yes! This! Beam patterns aren't rocket science, surely?
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Fibreflares are pretty good, actually, though I don't think they're significantly better than a strip of red retro tape -- definitely not £30 better. I love retro, it never runs flat and it weighs nothing.
I reckon the Fibreflare (on flashing mode) is completely inoffensive to other riders and yet astoundingly visible in city traffic. I thought it was a cute gimmick until I saw people using them on the FNRttC. They stand out really well against a background of random light sources, and mount sensibly to the seat stay of lightweight road bikes in exactly the way that the vast majority of rear lights seem not to. The 360-degree light source is inherently alignment-error-proof, too: ideal for attaching to saddlebags.
I am, as you know, also a fan of retroreflective bling - you can't beat it for covering a decent area, but it is of course no substitute for lights.
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With great power comes a need to have a good beam pattern, including a cropping of photons going upwards. All the torches appear to have a round beam pattern which severely compromises their qualities for use on the road.
Yes! This! Beam patterns aren't rocket science, surely?
+n
Bike lights above a certain brightness should be dippable, just like motor vehicle lights.
And in terms of visibility size of lens counts just as much as does intensity of light.
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Torch lights work ok if pointed downwards, but they are a compromise compared to proper bike lights.
I've toned my lighting right down on groups rides since I started doing them, and tried to not use flashing modes as they get very wearing after a while. I'd actually quite like a no flashing lights rule on things like the FNRttC which seem to be a lighting arms race.
I do think Kim's throbbing red is one of the most recognisable lights I've seen on the road though
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Front: I liked my Dinotte 600L but I was rarely able to use it on full, and for most of the time it would have been inconsiderate to use it on anything but low. The normal flash mode was excellent but I suspect it would have been too bright to oncoming traffic, even when the light was angled down fairly conservatively. The uber-flash mode: forget it. My current light is an Exposure Strada 2 which has a sort of rectangular beam on the low setting, and some degree of cutoff even on full. Full beam is bright for oncoming traffic, but much better than the Dinotte, and I can use 600 lumen setting, with care, on the road sometimes. The lower setting is an excellent balance for routine use.
Rear: I like the 1/2 Superflash and my Cateye TL LD 600. The latter is a good light, not offensive to the eye on steady or flash. I like to have the Superflash available though, and I do use it on flash in town at times. My experience is that, in town, I get more space when it is on flash.
Teethgrinder, is this the one you have, with the group ride mode? I must try one.
http://www.thebikelightshop.co.uk/Smart-Lunar-R1-Club-Offer.aspx (http://www.thebikelightshop.co.uk/Smart-Lunar-R1-Club-Offer.aspx)
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<nominates Andy Gates for Bike Lighting Tzar>
Oh, and when you're on a fecking organised ride, deliberately routed down fecking quiet roads (including "Quiet Lane" signs), they are at least doubly annoying.
p.s. I did not know the Smart 1W had a dim mode - I've never had a dim mode on a rear light, but had thought this is just what the newer bright lights need :thumbsup: decent battery life again!
I think the dim mode may refer to the rider rather than the lamp.
;D
The Smart 1W lights really do have a low beam mode.
I use it for group rides or when I'm on a long ride and there isn't much traffic.
Yes, Sergeant Pluck, that's the one I mean.
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The day when SMIDSY becomes unheard of is the day people stop using f-off powerful lights. Cause & effect innit?
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SMIDSY="Get out of jail free" card for bad driving IMO.
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The day when SMIDSY becomes unheard of is the day people stop using f-off powerful lights.
Up to a point.
An IQ Cyo or a Hope 1 up front and a Smart 1/2W on steady from behind, all with fresh batteries ought to be just about all the lights anyone needs. Having said that, I have to admit to periods of using my Fenix strobe-of-thrashy-deth as a bike light during my winter commute, simply because I'd had an absolute basin full of knobheads pulling out of side roads on me and making the "oh - I never saw you" shrug when I jammed on the brakes to avoid teh splatty.
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Up to a point.
An IQ Cyo or a Hope 1 up front and a Smart 1/2W on steady from behind, all with fresh batteries ought to be just about all the lights anyone needs. Having said that, I have to admit to periods of using my Fenix strobe-of-thrashy-deth as a bike light during my winter commute, simply because I'd had an absolute basin full of knobheads pulling out of side roads on me and making the "oh - I never saw you" shrug when I jammed on the brakes to avoid teh splatty.
Very true. I think the thrashy deth Fenix is more excusable in a big, well lit city when lights are coming from all directions. Especially this time of year. The "Festive Period" gets worse each week in the lead up to Christmas. More drunks, more stress, more anger on the roads. Fist fights for parking spaces etc. Season of goodwill and all that. ::-)
I think there's a fine line between top defence and being a %^*£ with silly lights. Even cars get SMIDSY'd, so good lights don't cure all, as I expect y'all ready know.
I suspect this thread might develop into an argument about where that line lays...
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I only have one of my rear lights on flashing, for the "obviously a cyclist" effect - but it's ok as it's only the puniest one, a smart 1/2W, so not exactly a lazer of deth. All my other rear lights, including the fibre flares, the XR9s, the Fenix, and the fog light, are always on constant O:-) :D
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Its all gone wrong !!! We never heard about cyclist having to much a bright light a few year back and now its one of the new big cycling issues ! Well I agree with Andy Gates, naughty words not excepted :O. So many cyclist out with bright lights. Its at the point of to many with bright lights against the cyclist with no lights :O
Where will it end ? Come on you Hope n Magic Shine light users turn down the off road mode :O
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I think it depends where you are.
In busy traffic, yes, you can tone it down a bit.
In deeply dark lanes, a medium setting may be appropriate.
Enough to see by, but not so much as to set the tarmac on fire.
On a 40mph descent in a pitch dark quiet road, then turning it up to 11 is appropriate.
I appreciate that's not a 'normal' scenario.
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F
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I think it depends where you are.
In busy traffic, yes, you can tone it down a bit.
In deeply dark lanes, a medium setting may be appropriate.
Enough to see by, but not so much as to set the tarmac on fire.
On a 40mph descent in a pitch dark quiet road, then turning it up to 11 is appropriate.
I appreciate that's not a 'normal' scenario.
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F
Agreed, though out in the countryside you don't need as bright a rear light as a good sensible rear light can bee seen from a long way away.
I spend most of my time riding hilly unlit roads, so my ultrafire torch gets used quite a bit, however I don't see people with bright flashing lights when riding in the countryside - the light is needed to see :)
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I like the Radbot because I think the 'throbbing' is much less offensive than a standard on/off flash, but I understand that its peak brightness isn't something you want in your eye at point blank range. I've deliberately fettled a bracket to mount it as low as possible, so it disappears behind the bonnet of the car behind at junctions, and to keep it below the eyeline of other cyclists.
I hate to say it Kim but on the York-Hull FNRTTC, your Radbot was voted (electorate of 2, 100% turnout, unanimous verdict) the most irritating rear light 'cos it was so *king bright and the slow flash was very hypnotic. FWIW, Slowcoach's rear light (RSP Astrum ? on steady) came in a close second. I appreciate that group rides aren't the same as solo rides where visibility from afar is more important.
I've stopped using flashing front lights since I've found that my pair of (large area) IQ Speeds get me more respect. I think that I'm not so obviously a cyclist so I don't get drivers pulling any last minute stunts.
I'm going to change my rear light policy. Previously they were all (Mars 3 or Superflash plus Trek bar end light plus Aldi ankle wrap) on flash. I'm going to put the main rear lamp on steady and leave the supplementary lights to flash.
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I hate to say it Kim but on the York-Hull FNRTTC, your Radbot was voted (electorate of 2, 100% turnout, unanimous verdict) the most irritating rear light 'cos it was so *king bright and the slow flash was very hypnotic. FWIW, Slowcoach's rear light (RSP Astrum ? on steady) came in a close second. I appreciate that group rides aren't the same as solo rides where visibility from afar is more important.
Interesting. I've had many people comment on how much less annoying it is[1] compared to similar lights like the Smart, which matches my own experience of riding behind one. Which I suppose goes to show that you can't win. :-\
I tend to turn it off on group rides like the FNRttC once off the busy roads, but I do sometimes forget, or find myself effectively riding solo (due to the group spreading out, or riding at the back) and tactically leave it on[2].
[1] In 'slow throb' mode, that is. It's easily one of the most irritating lights on the planet in its 'throbby-flashy epileptic disco frenzy' mode, which is why I've only used that one twice, both during torrential rain in daylight.
[2] I'm for the most part pragmatic about the seeability vs visibility of recumbents, but in the dark I do get slightly paranoid that there's an awful lot of me that's not actually visible[3] from directly behind. I'm less nervous about it on an upright.
[3] All that useful retroreflective clothing and moving limb stuff is hidden behind the seat/luggage.
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I'm not so sure it's all about power, I regulary see a guy coming the other way with just a flashing front, it's not a particulary bright light compared to my Hope 1, but it's set-up very badly - straight in front so it lights the air not the road and angled into coming traffic. Stupid people will do stupid things.
I'm quite keen on flashing rears, particulary ankle mounted ones as the sinusoidal motion causes motons to really think WTF is that. Can't comment on the group aspect really as 99.9% of my riding is solo but can see how they would be a PITA over a long time
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flashing lights and over-bright lights are particularly stupid in a group.
Say you're in a group of 5 riders, all with legal lights plus the usual random array of retro-reflec on clothes etc etc ... Do you REALLY think other road users will strugle to see any of you? Really?
On top of that, the only thing more annoying than a flashing light in front of you is 3-4 flashing lights.
Ask yourself another simple question - what if cars were fitted with this nonsense? Hmm?
Cars have dippable lights for a reason. Think about that, too.
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I only use flashing front lights once street lights make seeing where I am going easy but suggest a level of lit clutter where standing out is helpful. Flashing front lights annoy me too much to use if I can see the flashing myself and I'm deeply perplexed by all the riders I see on dark roads using them as their only light. I usually go for creating a patch of light on the road rather than pointing up - for exactly the reasons Andy mentions.
I'm with Kim re area being important and if I'm in the market for another white light it is one that has a bigger lit area, not a brighter one - I rarely put my Fenix on full. I've been musing about creating a light / retro-reflective / diffuser front for my bar bag for a while now.
At the back I tend to have one flashing and one rear to try and mix the cyclist message with something that doesn't break distance judging. I like to have two lights so one can fail unseen without leaving me invisible. Following a previous lights thread here I also point one down and a little to the right, to create a big red patch on the road.
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flashing lights and over-bright lights are particularly stupid in a group.
Say you're in a group of 5 riders, all with legal lights plus the usual random array of retro-reflec on clothes etc etc ... Do you REALLY think other road users will strugle to see any of you? Really?
"Over-bright" lights are for seeing where you're going - not to be seen!
I hate stupidly bright rear lights though and I always point front lights down a bit. I need (with my useless night vision) to see immediate pot holes in front of me, not 100 yards down the road...
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Flashing front lights annoy me too much to use if I can see the flashing myself
Hmm ...
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Flashing front lights annoy me too much to use if I can see the flashing myself
Hmm ...
Confusing or have I stumbled upon some innuendo?
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In the context of the OP which I understood to relate to front lights, I would assume that it is within an urban environment (or at least one with adequate third party light sources) as the cyclists presumably do not need a light to see by (as a flashing light does not provide for this). I would assume that this leads to a reduced chance that the light has ever been trained on the tarmac with the result that far more are aimed at eye level.
Under those circumstances the light is solely for drawing attention to yourself and an indiscriminately bright flasher in everyone's eyes is just antisocial. It's not just group riding it is about everyone you share the space with, other road users and pedestrians beside the road.
For seeing where you are going the light should be concentrated on the tarmac which is best achieved through pointing your photons down. I don't want a round puddle of light - roads aren't round, so just spitting out more power in that shape wastes a lot of effort. Where the beam shape corresponds to the road you need to see a far greater proportion of your light output becomes useful rather than wasted.
And while I'm at it, the radbot rear is an annoying little $%^* of a rear light to follow (particularly for many sleep depraved hours).
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Flashing front lights annoy me too much to use if I can see the flashing myself
Hmm ...
Confusing or have I stumbled upon some innuendo?
Darn, I should have considered that :facepalm:
Sorry, I was hoping to make the point that if YOU find it annoying (and the thing is pointed away from you), imagine what it's like for other road-users!
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Suspect my front light is not ideally pointed, it's a dynamo and the stand light has gone so it's hard to adjust. So anyone is welcome to drop unsubtle hints (if the hints are subtle I just don't get them, you see).
I suspect my rear light is suitably unbright already.
I can't stand flashing lights as my eyes have to keep adjusting to ligh-nolight-light-nolight-light-etc. need a constant amount of light output. so I don't do flash myself (I usd to, before I started rigin outside town etc.)
I don't like laser front lights of deth iether. Even about 4 years back I remember one of El Supremo's rides (?400) with an out and back stretch where you were facing oncoming cyclists was hard work.
I often wonder whetner putting a hood around my front light (like they do for traffic lights) would help.
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Exactly my point too! If I find the world around me flashing annoying, I assume other people do too. That light (a smart something or other) is too much and scatters so wide that road signs flash back at me even if I point it down, so I have swapped back to something more sociable.
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If you could line a hood out of reflective material you may even make a gain in the effectiveness of your light for seeing where you are headed. Though it would ideally want some focussing component which would make it challenging.
Maybe a fresnel lens across the top of the light?
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Reflective Hoods/Cowls:
People have tried these. I had a go at Wothill's method, it was quick and (very!) cheap but didn't help a LOT. Here's his original post (edited a bit):
The DIY cowl is attached to the end with duct tape and consists of some foil glued to an appropriately shaped bit of plastic milk bottle. It makes the beam almost semicircular with the cut-off just above the hot spot. I have used it on all my night riding for the last year with no problems of glare that I have been aware of. I point it at the road between 5 and 10 metres ahead of me.
This (http://www.flickr.com/photos/wothill/5092668679/)is the torch
This (http://www.flickr.com/photos/wothill/5093281196/)is the beam against a white wall.
I think a proper lens (Tim's "fresnel" thing?!?) is required. Anyone fancy marketing one to fit a variety of the modern torch-style lights? Could be the winning bike-light VFM answer.
p.s. @Vorsprung: please undelete your post! Not sure how serious it was, but there was some sense in it :thumbsup:
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I really like the gentle flicker of my dynamo light as I ride along at about 4mph and the steady light it makes when I occasionally travel at higher speeds. And I like the rectangle of light it throws onto the tarmac. And the little pools on the road either side of me. And the shape of the light patch when I pull up behind a bus at the lights - a nice sharp cut-off that reminds me (not coincidentally) of the beam pattern of car headlight. And the occasional flash of reflected light from signposts and other retroreflective stuff when I hit a bump in the road.
My only concern about my dynamo light is that it might, in a close group, produce a weird effect that I've witnessed on a FNRttS, when someone with a similar light is riding behind me, and their light is properly angeled down and is lighting up the road beneath my bike and, when I look down, I can see every detail in the road surface repeated in an incredibly fast strobing sort of effect. It was a bit like those LED cats'-eyes on the descent into West Wycombe, which break up into swirling streams of tiny dots when you ride fast past them. Or a bit like walking into a room where a data projector is on, and it breaks up into a mad pattern of red, blue and green blocks as I move.
Is there a loose connection in my brane or has anyone else noticed this?
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PBP was a great example of how a rear light on constant mode is more acceptable.
I don't recall many, if any, issues with rear lights (and you get to look at many hundreds for 4 nights).
It would be unbearable to stare at the same lights on flashing mode.
My front light (a B&M IQ) is constant and it has a distinct cut-off. On top of that I manually adjust the height of the beam as situations change (it's conveniently located just in front of the stem). If, as usual, I'm on totally dark country lanes I have it tilted up. If I see a car approaching I'll aim it down. It seems fair because most cars dip their lights when they see me.
My rear light(s) are set to flashing mode when I'm riding alone on those lanes. I've carefully angled it quite low, so it wouldn't shine in a cyclist's eyes following close behind but it probably shines right into a driver's eyes at 100 yards. It's a Cateye LD600 and very directional, not bright at all unless you are within its narrow "kill zone". I doubt whether it's all that bright for a motorist as they get close but they should have been made well aware of my presence at 100 yards or more.
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, I can see every detail in the road surface repeated in an incredibly fast strobing sort of effect. It was a bit like those LED cats'-eyes on the descent into West Wycombe, which break up into swirling streams of tiny dots when you ride fast past them. Or a bit like walking into a room where a data projector is on, and it breaks up into a mad pattern of red, blue and green blocks as I move.
Is there a loose connection in my brane or has anyone else noticed this?
My old Solidlights used to strobe my tyre tread pattern and raindrops. I don't notice the same effect with my CYO.
It looked freaky when the tyre would appear to stop rotating. Maybe it only happens when the tread pattern repeats at the same interval as the dynamo magnets/pulses.
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PBP was a great example of how a rear light on constant mode is more acceptable.
I don't recall many, if any, issues with rear lights (and you get to look at many hundreds for 4 nights).
It would be unbearable to stare at the same lights on flashing mode.
Exactomundo. The NO FLASHING LIGHTS rule was the only PBP rule that I saw no complaints about, before or after.
It would be great if the 24H Fellowhip would follow suit (cos you meet oncoming riders every few minutes on the 24). And maybe AUK? Or am I being too ridiculous now?!?
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I probably had this thread in mind when I wrote the following last night in the "Have you been out today ?" thread:-
The MTB is fitted with the Philips dyno lamp. It's a formidable bit of kit but I'm beginning to realise the limits of current bike lights; they really need dip-switches since, if you set them to give the maximum reach, they will dazzle anyone coming in the opposing direction. Point them down and you're not using their full potential. The MTB light is mounted on the fork crown (not any other "easy" options for the Philips) so moving it down when there's traffic coming the other way isn't an option.
The beam of the Philips isn't TOO anti-social since it is focussed into a rectangle along the road with very little vertical scatter and I've angled it down quite a bit.
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That's why I like having two lights; one pointed about 6ft in front of bike, the other about 20ft. Turn on off and I've 'dipped' my lights.
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Dip switches is the way to go, long term. Till then we have to make do with switching additional lights on and off, or thumping them up and down. B&M seem to have the idea with their IQ shaped beams, give it a few more years and they might add a full-beam.
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That's why I like having two lights; one pointed about 6ft in front of bike, the other about 20ft. Turn on off and I've 'dipped' my lights.
Agreed. I must look in to fitting a remote switch to my Ixon IQ (which usually does 'main beam' duty above a Cyo). I've been somewhat preoccupied by trike fettling recently...
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My Hope Vision 2 will only flash in low power mode, there are then steady modes at low, normal, high and max power. Anything over normal power and I either angle the light towards the left kerb or shade it with a hand when there is on coming traffic.
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I use a Smart (or similar) on the rear in flash mode - sometimes with a steady red as well - for my normal riding/commuting. If riding in a group for any period of time (other than the 'gathering at the lights' moments) then it goes onto steady.
I have a steady beam on the front, with a low intensity flash as well.
I use my Dinotte 600 quite often. Low beam or low beam/flash (the Dinotte has both) combo in traffic, medium or high beam on dark and twisty roads.
The lights themselves aren't the problem - it is how they're set up/angled that is the problem.
As for a steady beam being easier to judge distance from, IIRC the TRL research doesn't support that, which is one reason why flashing lights were permitted on the roads in the first place.
And as for:
If a rider has only one lamp, a steady lamp is easier for other road users to position. It gets done by driver autopilot, normally. This applies to front and rear. Other road users are, after all, used to looking for other lit vehicles, which have steady big bright white lights front and red lights rear.
I don't them judging on autopilot - I want them to consciously note where I am. Drivers operating on autopilot is one reason why we have so many 'SMIDSYs' - drivers 'automatically seeing' but not consciously acting on what is around them.
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Indeed. Driver autopilot works on the assumption that a pedal cycle is travelling at no more than about 8mph, for a start.
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Maybe a fresnel lens across the top of the light?
It's not quite that simple unfortunately. If you just had light coming direct from the LED source, then the stuff at the top of the output face would be creating the top of the beam, and vice versa. But most torches are constructed with a reflector. This means output from top and bottom of the light may be travelling mostly forward, not the up or down respectively you would expect. If anything, the top edge of the most intense far field beam may be coming from the bottom of the face. Stare at your light and gradually move up or down. See which portion of the face appears brightest as you move out of the edge of the main beam.
Not to say a simple cowl wouldn't help, but getting efficient reshaping of the beam once it has already been formed by a reflector doesn't appear easy.
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Indeed. Driver autopilot works on the assumption that a pedal cycle is travelling at no more than about 8mph, for a start.
Well that seems to refute the benefits of blinkies - they have become synonymous with 'pedal cycles' these days. So if you flash, you'll probably be SMIDSYed!
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It's a good point. While I feel that a flashing light (in conjunction with a static one) makes me more visible, I've noticed that motorists will pause when I just have the Cyo on in the dark. I think it's a moment of thinking, 'Is that a motorbike?', which buys me space.
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Indeed. Driver autopilot works on the assumption that a pedal cycle is travelling at no more than about 8mph, for a start.
Well that seems to refute the benefits of blinkies - they have become synonymous with 'pedal cycles' these days. So if you flash, you'll probably be SMIDSYed!
It depends, doesn't it? Blinkies on the front would be bad for that reason. A decent static light on the front means you could be a motorbike or something, which means less pulling out at junctions in front of you.
But this thread was about rear lights. If people approaching from behind assume I'm arbitrarily slow, then that's a good thing...
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At the back I have a Fibreflare on the top of my saddlebag and a Cateye mounted on the rack both flashing, and a Smart 1/2 watt on constant on the bag loop. Sometimes, if my saddlebag isn't too full, I use the little Knog blinkie on my Bagman.
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At the back I have a Fibreflare on the top of my saddlebag and a Cateye mounted on the rack both flashing, and a Smart 1/2 watt on constant on the bag loop. Sometimes, if my saddlebag isn't too full, I use the little Knog blinkie on my Bagman.
Where do you put the power station necessary to recharge all the batteries? :P ;D
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Actually, they all last a surprisingly long time.
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I have done some of my fastest riding on FNRttCs when I was trying to get in front of someone with an awfully bright rear light!
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guilty as charged ??? ??? ???
these rear lights are very directional.....keep a couple of feet to one side and the intensity drops off dramatically
If we're talking of banning these lights can we add to the list the lights used by the vendettes on PBP....caused me to stop dead i my tracks.....totally blinded ::-) ::-) ::-)
P.S i stick a piece of masking tape over the light when riding in groups :smug:
dave
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It depends, doesn't it? Blinkies on the front would be bad for that reason. A decent static light on the front means you could be a motorbike or something, which means less pulling out at junctions in front of you.
But this thread was about rear lights. If people approaching from behind assume I'm arbitrarily slow, then that's a good thing...
[rereading Andy's OP, I _think_ it's about white lights, but it's a bit vague, so it's no surprise we've covered both ends!]
I guess a slow appearance is good for being spotted as a hazard
HOWEVER
When someone is overtaking me - and remember this is the No1 priority for any driver - I'd like them to assess and predict my size and movement as accurately as possible.
I don't much like the trend here for MISinformation - in the long run I think it can only backfire on us :(
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A solution for group riding with a seatpost mounted light could be to add a seatpack directly above the light. This would allow the full fury of the light to be seen by following car drivers at a distance but would not shine upwards into the eyes of a rider on your wheel. I've considered this for my son's bike as his rear light scatters light in all directions - including up.
On the back I run a dynamo powered Toplight which is on steady. This has some sort of refracting wedges moulded onto the inside of the lens which spreads the light out over the full width. I also use a Smart type LED which I put on flickery mode which seems, to me anyway, to be less of a strain on the eyes than flash. I think that it's because it's a good bit dimmer on flicker and there's always one of the LEDs on so there's no real light/dark contrast. It still is blinky enough to say "cyclist".
I haven't used my helmet torch much on the road as it gets washed out by the Cyo beam but having read this I think that I'll start to use it on flash under streetlights where there's a bit more traffic. I am conscious when driving of the risk of missing a bike light, particularly if the bike is being followed closely by a car, so I'm sure that something flashing on the front would help. I wouldn't ride with just a flasher on the front though after a near-SMIDSY last autumn (I was the driver, saw the bike just as I was starting to pull out).
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I do find helmet mounted lights particularly confusing. You expect a bicycle light to be at a given height and then suddenly there's this UFO somewhere up in the sky.
IMO both cars lights and bicycle lights need much tighter legislation to reduce this picadilly-circus stuff going on now.
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It's all very well being lit up like a Christmas tree, but for the next 6 weeks - so will everything else
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I do find helmet mounted lights particularly confusing. You expect a bicycle light to be at a given height and then suddenly there's this UFO somewhere up in the sky.
IMO both cars lights and bicycle lights need much tighter legislation to reduce this picadilly-circus stuff going on now.
I agree with this as far as helmet lights without bike-mounted lights are concerned. Both the height and the directionality are something out of the expected. No problem when used as additional lights to one on the bars/fork crown/etc though.
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flashing lights and over-bright lights are particularly stupid in a group.
Also when you're proceeding down a cycle-path when there might be another cyclist (ie me) coming in the opposite direction.
I thought I was having a Close Encounters moment yesterday evening when I was faced with two cyclists armed with the kind of lights that might be suitable for midnight singletracking in rural locations but are eminently unsuitable for situations where my retinas might be subjected to their laser-like beams.
One of the pair gave me a cheery hail-fellow-cyclist-well-met type greeting as he passed. I wasn't nearly so charming in my response.
d.
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My front light is normally on constant at night, but you would HATE me Andy. This is London, and it's bright everywhere, so I'm a fully paid up member of Teh Road Lighting Wars TM. It's on Exposure flash/constant in the daytime.
My rear light is sometimes on constant, but mostly on Dinotte evil flashing strobe pattern. I hope her_welshness didn't hate me too much last night, as it's really rather poisonous. Want a free headache?
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My front light is normally on constant at night, but you would HATE me Andy. This is London, and it's bright everywhere, so I'm a fully paid up member of Teh Road Lighting Wars TM. It's on Exposure flash/constant in the daytime.
My rear light is sometimes on constant, but mostly on Dinotte evil flashing strobe pattern. I hope her_welshness didn't hate me too much last night, as it's really rather poisonous. Want a free headache?
Oh well, looks like I've joined the arms race as well, just ordered a Magicshine MU-872.
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I'm worried aircraft might land on me when I'm cycling so I'm going to sellotape a couple of dozen lazer pens to my helmet all pointing upwards.
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I'm worried aircraft might land on me when I'm cycling so I'm going to sellotape a couple of dozen lazer pens to my helmet all pointing upwards.
That will upset the pilot of the black helicopter.
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But this thread was about rear lights. If people approaching from behind assume I'm arbitrarily slow, then that's a good thing...
[rereading Andy's OP, I _think_ it's about white lights, but it's a bit vague, so it's no surprise we've covered both ends!]
That's how I read it too. Either way, it's prompted a right load of old bunkum since ::-)
I guess a slow appearance is good for being spotted as a hazard
HOWEVER
When someone is overtaking me - and remember this is the No1 priority for any driver - I'd like them to assess and predict my size and movement as accurately as possible.
Me too - and on that basis, I don't like to masquerade as something I'm not (such as, motorbike, distant car). So I use a single flashing multi-led rear light of moderate power, correctly mounted ie pointing straight back, because these days a flashing rear 'says bike'. With the obvious caveat that I use it on steady mode when riding in company.
At the front I wouldn't use a flashing light as it's too irritating to me, but I do much prefer lights with circular beams. Since these do have to be directed away from oncoming traffic, I would normally also run a separate visibility light of moderate power, pointed straight ahead.
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What's the danger in being assessed as slower than you really are by traffic from the rear? A scary overtake and/or left hook.
What's the danger in being assessed as faster than you really are by traffic from the rear? Someone not reducing speed enough and running into the back of you, or coming scarily close to doing so.
Neither appeal to me.
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Well, having read this thread I reassessed my Aldi torch purchase and added a bit of tape to 'dip' the beam a bit more. I can still get a focused spot on narrow beam but in wide beam the pattern is a nicely cut off D shape to save dazzle.
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I am quite happy to do a bit of mirror dazzling :smug:
In return I am also happy to have my mirror dazzled, but only by a cyclist :smug:
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Well, having read this thread I reassessed my Aldi torch purchase and added a bit of tape to 'dip' the beam a bit more. I can still get a focused spot on narrow beam but in wide beam the pattern is a nicely cut off D shape to save dazzle.
Angels will carry you to your rest, plying you with caek. O:-)
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This has been a fascinating thread. It's really difficult to know what to do for the best. I use a Fenix for seeing and a 9-LED for being seen. Until a few days ago (on reading this thread) I used the 9 -LED in flashing mode. Then I decided it mght be a distraction, so used it in steady. However, coming over the moors the other night I actually had to stop several times because the oncoming cars (undipped) lights were so bright I couldn't see where I was. I think maybe we are tackling the wrong culprits here, but I will persevere with steady, in case it makes me holier!
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... I actually had to stop several times because the oncoming cars (undipped) lights were so bright I couldn't see where I was. I think maybe we are tackling the wrong culprits here, but I will persevere with steady, in case it makes me holier!
Two wrongs don't make a right - car lights are a problem too. I've been dazzled by both types in the last week.
Even DIPPED car lights have become a problem in the last - ooh, I dunno - 5 years or so. Not simply for brightness, but narrowness of hot-spot. The bloody things are in effect flashing on any imperfect surface. Grrr ...
Bike lights affect other cyclists as well as drivers, so it's in everyone's interest to Play Nicely.
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I tend to use a B+M Ixon on night rides, which is pretty much useless unless it's pointed downwards - as I discovered whilst careering down Cheddar Gorge and making hasty adjustments as I couldn't see the corners. :facepalm:
On the car front, I drive a Smart Roadster, which annoyingly means that you often get blinded by cars with a high - or sometimes even regular - wheel base. Especially 4x4s are a problem. Not sure if there's much to be done about it though.
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@ mattc
I agree about the summation of wrongs. I've even taking to "dipping" the Fenix by just tipping it down. It actually gets most drivers to dip - or maybe that's coincidence!
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As an example of the opposite end of the spectrum, but in a bizarre way, the other night I saw a woman riding along a quiet residential street with a helmet light front and rear, two bar-mounted lights, one on the seatpost and another on the rear rack - but the brightest thing about her was her hi-viz jacket, because all her lights were turned off! ???
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She probably couldn't afford to buy all those batteries !
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;D
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Well, having read this thread I reassessed my Aldi torch purchase and added a bit of tape to 'dip' the beam a bit more. I can still get a focused spot on narrow beam but in wide beam the pattern is a nicely cut off D shape to save dazzle.
Angels will carry you to your rest, plying you with caek. O:-)
Playing with his what :o
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Sometimes you have to run with relatively cheap lights (because you can't afford anything better). Transferring the risk may seem callous, but as a cyclist I'm/you're the most vulnerable user and so you do what's necessary.
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In which case they're not super bright bloody bastard lights. :)
Blinding vehicle operators isn't transferring the risk, it's increasing it.
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In which case they're not super bright bloody bastard lights. :)
I dunno. I reckon a £5 Saik torch scores higher in the blinding stakes than an IQ Cyo, for example. If you've got to negotiate pothole-infested lanes on a budget, it's understandable that you'd chose something like that over a Wilko blinky.
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You'd be well advised to point the thing at the potholes, and not the driver's face, then.
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I'm less than convinced dazzling lights are dangerous. Annoying, certainly, but not dangerous. Bright lights encourage you to drive at them, yes?
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Some might say if it's bright enough to dazzle, the dazzle is dangerous (but fixed by angle of attack, so to speak).
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I'm less than convinced dazzling lights are dangerous. Annoying, certainly, but not dangerous. Bright lights encourage you to drive at them, yes?
I do remember reading of someone getting killed by a driver he'd dazzled.
He was on a footway cycle track, going against the flow of traffic in the adjacent road lane. The driver tried to pass to the left, and got diverted by crossing up the kerb at a shallow angle. A Cateye Stadium, or one of the other early HID lights.
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I'm less than convinced dazzling lights are dangerous. Annoying, certainly, but not dangerous. Bright lights encourage you to drive at them, yes?
The rabbit in the headlights reaction is generally held to be involuntarily true, yes. Surely that means they are dangerous to both the dazzler and the dazzlee.
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You'd be well advised to point the thing at the potholes, and not the driver's face, then.
Well yes, but stupid beam shapes common with LED reflectors not designed for use as serious bicycle lighting make that harder than it needs to be - put the hot spot somewhere useful on the road, and you've got half a cone of pointless dazzle-beam above it.
I reckon B&M's IQ reflector is the best thing to happen to bicycle lighting since the white LED. It's about time that other manufacturers (Cateye, I'm looking at you!) caught up and started competing.
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My Hope 1 throws a cone of light - there's no clever beam shape. It seems pretty bright. When I'm following a car, in traffic say, I can see its hot spot on the back of the car. But when another car comes up behind me, the car lights totally drown out the shine of my bike light. A Hope 1 is brighter than the lights most people use (not necessarily most people here, just most people on bikes up and down the UK) but we've got a long way to go before we come close to the output of average car lights.
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Oh well, I fitted my Magicshine 872 yesterday so I'm officially no longer a flasher. Perhaps I can get off Andy's virtual naughty step now :)
Too soon to say whether the lack of flashiness has any bearing on smidsyesque stunts, but we'll see. I don't think it will because having helmet mounted Ayups as well should mean there is sufficient moving light to get their attention, well I hope so anyway.
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I also use a hope one. If the hot spot is on the road around 3-4m ahead of me, then there is nothing like half a cone going upwards. Probably less than 1/4, and it is the least bright 1/4. I would say much less bright than even a moped headlight on dip.
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Hmmm, this useful stuff. Much of my night riding is on quiet country lanes. I have a Hope 1 as have the majority of my riding buddies. We have noticed that a Hope 1 (even when it isn't set to "Stun") will often stop an oncoming driver in their tracks. I have always assumed this was a good thing, but after reading some of the above posts I'm not so sure. I might set my bike up with lights on and then sit in the car facing it to see what my Hope 1 plus second blinky light looks like from a driver's point of view.
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The lumen output of a typical 3W LED is less than two 55W dipped beams, and considerably less than 35W HIDs. Is it the small size of a bike lamp that is the problem, or do they have a bad aim? Modern lights like the B&M Cyo have a pretty sharp cut-off at the top of the beam, to the extent that you can't see much on reaching the bottom of a dip in the road.
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Even DIPPED car lights have become a problem in the last - ooh, I dunno - 5 years or so. Not simply for brightness, but narrowness of hot-spot. The bloody things are in effect flashing on any imperfect surface.
I'm increasingly finding that HIDs are generally no worse than halogens for dazzle, but either type can be badly aimed. About 1 in 3 cars has the beam set too high, either accidentally or deliberately (for better forward vision; next time you're driving at night, note how many drivers at the head of the queue never use full beam at all). Aim is supposed to be checked in the MoT, and there is proper kit to do it, but I don't think most testing stations bother.
I put it down to the usual can't-be-arsed attitude of motorists, garages and the traffic police.
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It could also be lack of understanding of light adjustment dials in the car. Mine has 4 settings depending on how loaded the car is. I don't usually use the unloaded (zero) setting as it sets the lights a bit too high for my liking, even with just me in the car.
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^ ^ ^ ^
What Mr Andygates said!
+1 spot on.
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Andy: hate away:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwJwMMwThjQ
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Even DIPPED car lights have become a problem in the last - ooh, I dunno - 5 years or so. Not simply for brightness, but narrowness of hot-spot. The bloody things are in effect flashing on any imperfect surface. Grrr ...
I have HiDs, properly adjusted and MoT worthy. As you say, the beam cut off is so defined that on a bumpy road they look to oncoming traffic like I'm flashing, and cresting a hill it looks like I haven't bothered to dip. I'll get flashed at by a non-HiD vehicle driver at least once per night time car journey. Bloody good lights to see by mind.
The same jiggle/flash problem affects motorbikes even more. I've actually learned to back off massively from the car in front at night on country roads, after an irate car driver in front slammed his brakes on, then yelled ''WHAT?'' out of his window as a went past him ..... :o
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Even DIPPED car lights have become a problem in the last - ooh, I dunno - 5 years or so. Not simply for brightness, but narrowness of hot-spot. The bloody things are in effect flashing on any imperfect surface. Grrr ...
I have HiDs, properly adjusted and MoT worthy. As you say, the beam cut off is so defined that on a bumpy road they look to oncoming traffic like I'm flashing, and cresting a hill it looks like I haven't bothered to dip. I'll get flashed at by a non-HiD vehicle driver at least once per night time car journey. Bloody good lights to see by mind.
The same jiggle/flash problem affects motorbikes even more. I've actually learned to back off massively from the car in front at night on country roads, after an irate car driver in front slammed his brakes on, then yelled ''WHAT?'' out of his window as a went past him ..... :o
That sounds to me the lights are aimed much too high, almost like a full beam, surely a "dipped" beam should be pointing down onto the road.
I reckon actual dipped lights are definitely a minority out there on the road. Most so called "dipped" motor vehicle lights are too bright, quite a lot have one or both lights on what looks like full beam. I've even been dazzled when sitting at the front on the top floor of a double decker bus!
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I'm less than convinced dazzling lights are dangerous. Annoying, certainly, but not dangerous. Bright lights encourage you to drive at them, yes?
So all you can see is the bright light and nothing else, and that's not dangerous?
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Of course it's dangerous. Anybody (like me) who runs bright lights should park up their bike at night and take a walk in front from a way back to see what the effect is. I did this before using my 1000 lumen 868, and now I know to have the rear of the hotspot hitting the road no more than 4 metres in front of me.
I've no desire to piss other road users off, ever.
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That sounds to me the lights are aimed much too high, almost like a full beam, surely a "dipped" beam should be pointing down onto the road.
I watched them adjust the light alignment when I took my car for its first MOT. The correct alignment seems to put the top of the beam pretty much horizontal, with the triangular wedge off to the left above it.
I try to reproduce this with my B&M IQ bicycle lights, and it seems to give optimal illumination of the road ahead.
Obviously a headlamp with a sharp cutoff like this will appear to flash on hills or bumpy ground. Occupational hazard, unless you throw some really clever technology at it, or soften the cut-off (which makes for less good distance illumination, assuming the same alignment).
Sure there are plenty of vehicles out there with poorly adjusted lights (how many people bother with the load adjustment dial, for a start?), but even freshly legally adjusted ones aren't magically dazzle-proof.
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Of course it's dangerous. Anybody (like me) who runs bright lights should park up their bike at night and take a walk in front from a way back to see what the effect is. I did this before using my 1000 lumen 868, and now I know to have the rear of the hotspot hitting the road no more than 4 metres in front of me.
I've no desire to piss other road users off, ever.
+1
also, if you do this, remember to crouch down to driver eye-height - it's not very high.
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Anybody (like me) who runs bright lights should park up their bike at night and take a walk in front from a way back to see what the effect is.
FTFY.
This advice is just as applicable to inoffensively dim rear lights as it is to FRIKKIN LAZERS OF DETH.
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That sounds to me the lights are aimed much too high, almost like a full beam, surely a "dipped" beam should be pointing down onto the road.
I watched them adjust the light alignment when I took my car for its first MOT. The correct alignment seems to put the top of the beam pretty much horizontal, with the triangular wedge off to the left above it.
I try to reproduce this with my B&M IQ bicycle lights, and it seems to give optimal illumination of the road ahead.
Obviously a headlamp with a sharp cutoff like this will appear to flash on hills or bumpy ground. Occupational hazard, unless you throw some really clever technology at it, or soften the cut-off (which makes for less good distance illumination, assuming the same alignment).
Sure there are plenty of vehicles out there with poorly adjusted lights (how many people bother with the load adjustment dial, for a start?), but even freshly legally adjusted ones aren't magically dazzle-proof.
If that's the legal setting, then IMO it's too high. If you need illumination of the road ahead (on unlit roads) you should be using a full beam. Dipped light should be mainly for others to see you on lit roads.
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If you need illumination of the road ahead (on unlit roads) you should be using a full beam.
What about oncoming traffic?
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I'm less than convinced dazzling lights are dangerous. Annoying, certainly, but not dangerous. Bright lights encourage you to drive at them, yes?
So all you can see is the bright light and nothing else, and that's not dangerous?
I don't think I've ever seen lights dazzling to that degree, apart from the sun itself on rare occasions, nor have I seen anyone do anything to do with bright lights that didn't improve their safety - stuff like slowing down and/or stopping.
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If you need illumination of the road ahead (on unlit roads) you should be using a full beam.
What about oncoming traffic?
Sorry I should have added when there is no oncoming traffic.
What is the point of dipped lights when they dazzle?
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I'm less than convinced dazzling lights are dangerous. Annoying, certainly, but not dangerous. Bright lights encourage you to drive at them, yes?
So all you can see is the bright light and nothing else, and that's not dangerous?
I don't think I've ever seen lights dazzling to that degree, apart from the sun itself on rare occasions, nor have I seen anyone do anything to do with bright lights that didn't improve their safety - stuff like slowing down and/or stopping.
I'm amazed. In the dark, if I point my 868 straight ahead I guarantee you won't be able to see anything else if you are oncoming.
Mind you, you ride exclusively in London iirc, where there is nearly always street lighting
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I'm amazed. In the dark, if I point my 868 straight ahead I guarantee you won't be able to see anything else if you are oncoming.
Mind you, you ride exclusively in London iirc, where there is nearly always street lighting
I have some sections of unlit country lane on my commute. Your light is a roughly 500 actual lumens light, so it's not that bright. Even my MaXx-D, also far from the brightest light, just isn't a problem at almost twice that brightness. All these lights are completely washed out by a car headlight - just look at your light cast on the road when a vehicle overtakes. Your light may as well not be on by comparison with the car's headlight.
Maybe it helps that I've probably done a lot more long distance night driving on unlit roads than most, in very dark conditions?
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I'm less than convinced dazzling lights are dangerous. Annoying, certainly, but not dangerous. Bright lights encourage you to drive at them, yes?
So all you can see is the bright light and nothing else, and that's not dangerous?
I don't think I've ever seen lights dazzling to that degree, apart from the sun itself on rare occasions, nor have I seen anyone do anything to do with bright lights that didn't improve their safety - stuff like slowing down and/or stopping.
I'm amazed. In the dark, if I point my 868 straight ahead I guarantee you won't be able to see anything else if you are oncoming.
Mind you, you ride exclusively in London iirc, where there is nearly always street lighting
Even with street lights, if your eyes are caught in a car beam you will see nothing else, unless they are some distance away. This happens a lot on roads with even a slight curve going down, or around bends.
But I agree with the point even the brightest bike lights are drowned out several times by car lights.
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Im sure the 868 is more than 500 lumens. I have a 450 lumen dinotte, and an E3 Triple with a claimed output of 800 lumens. It pisses all over them by a long margin.
With regards to car lights, the bulbs put out about 1000-1500 lumen, but of course are highly shaped. Not so with high output bike lights.
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High-power bike lights originally were designed and marketed for mountain bikers, so tend to be spot or flood beams. For various reasons, they have crossed over to commuting use, but as discussed above, the beam shaping is all wrong for on-road use.
Mind you, some manufacturers do realise that on and off-road night-time riding have different beam requirements - for example, USE's Exposure range of lights features a road-specific model which has main/dipped beams, realised by using different lenses for the two LEDs.
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The floody lights that come against me are bright enough that I can't see anything on the unlit road I'm on, hence the 2 people who use them get an earful whenever we cross paths. I can't make out anything about them - girl/boy/mtb/roadbike - who knows. Pretty much all I can see is the white line on the road. Totally ridiculous.
If I see them far enough in advance, I'm going to take my ixon off and just point it at their face next time.
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The floody lights that come against me are bright enough that I can't see anything on the unlit road I'm on, hence the 2 people who use them get an earful whenever we cross paths. I can't make out anything about them - girl/boy/mtb/roadbike - who knows. Pretty much all I can see is the white line on the road. Totally ridiculous.
If I see them far enough in advance, I'm going to take my ixon off and just point it at their face next time.
:applause:
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Im sure the 868 is more than 500 lumens. I have a 450 lumen dinotte, and an E3 Triple with a claimed output of 800 lumens. It pisses all over them by a long margin.
With regards to car lights, the bulbs put out about 1000-1500 lumen, but of course are highly shaped. Not so with high output bike lights.
It's a magic shine claimed 1000 lumens, or about 500 in this reality IIRC.
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If that is 500 lumens then the 450 lumen dinotte must be about 250, and the "800 lumen" E3 triple a mere 150.
Or you might be mistaken. Only one of us has actually seen the light in question though ;)
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That sounds to me the lights are aimed much too high, almost like a full beam, surely a "dipped" beam should be pointing down onto the road.
They are 'pointing down' on dip. Going from full to dip I can see the beam edge 'sweep' downwards. They are even self-levelling, to allow for different load weights. Of course, that just uses an average ride height to set the beam, so the bumpy road problem remains .... anyway, going OT a bit I guess.
I hate blinken cycle lights at the front too.
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If that is 500 lumens then the 450 lumen dinotte must be about 250, and the "800 lumen" E3 triple a mere 150.
Or you might be mistaken. Only one of us has actually seen the light in question though ;)
LOL, don't take it so personally! Magicshine are known for their rather ambitious lumen claims, AFAIK. Perhaps your light is the exception. Anyway, not that it matters, as far brighter lights than yours shouldn't and aren't a dazzle problem.
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The MTBR shootout measurements suggest that the MJ-808 I have just bought is about 500-600 lumens, rather than the 900 claimed. It really is enough though.
http://reviews.mtbr.com/2011-bike-lights-shootout/2
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If that is 500 lumens then the 450 lumen dinotte must be about 250, and the "800 lumen" E3 triple a mere 150.
Or you might be mistaken. Only one of us has actually seen the light in question though ;)
LOL, don't take it so personally! Magicshine are known for their rather ambitious lumen claims, AFAIK. Perhaps your light is the exception. Anyway, not that it matters, as far brighter lights than yours shouldn't and aren't a dazzle problem.
I'm not taking it personally at all. It matters not a jot what the claimed output is, what matters is how bright it is and it is bloody bright...far brighter than the Supernova which has a claimed brightness of 800. Are Supernova also known for their ambitious claims.
I suspect that if I shone the thing in your face you'd change your mind about whether it is a problem or not.
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I've just come back from a ride on barakta's recumbent trike. It's the first time I've ridden a low 'bent in the dark. When they're at your eye level (and espcially if there's mist in the air or your glasses are steaming up), even relatively crappy dipped headlights are infinitely more blinding than the most powerful bike lights I've encountered in the wild. Not least because they come in pairs.
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The floody lights that come against me are bright enough that I can't see anything on the unlit road I'm on, hence the 2 people who use them get an earful whenever we cross paths. I can't make out anything about them - girl/boy/mtb/roadbike - who knows. Pretty much all I can see is the white line on the road. Totally ridiculous.
If I see them far enough in advance, I'm going to take my ixon off and just point it at their face next time.
Nah. If you absolutely insist on fucking up their shit you can borrow this...
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7160/6437071759_20f28c3b3f.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/56626530@N06/6437071759/)
(Sky Ray 3x XML-T6. Claimed output of 3800 lumens. Obviously bollocks, but really really bright)
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I tried an experiment with a 2006 vintage Solidlights 1303 and if I was trying to look past them at oncoming car headlights, yes I could see them. They looked dim and yellow. I couldn’t see anything else.
If you are very low down on a ‘bent then you are right in the beam of a dipped headlight. This is the whole point of dip - they are designed to put a lot of light in the right place. The fact that you are at the level of the lights defeats this design. It’s not an argument for running around everywhere on main beam, which is what unshaped beam bike lights are equivalent to (or indeed worse than in many cases).
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One side note on the OT of car dipped lights, whenever I am out in the car at night I take notice of where my dipped lights are pointing. I will check the beam pattern cuts off well below the rear window of the first car ahead as a guage of the beam being horizontal or lower.
The height of bike lights can also be an issue.
Looking at my bike lights they are all bar mounted and significantly higher then car lights. Therefore to have the equivilent of dipped lights with a horizontal cut off I would need to mount the lights lower lower down.
Currently, even with my 'dipped' light I have to point it low to ensure that it doesn't become dazzling as another road user gets closer. I can't have it horizontal as it is eye level to car drivers.
I was thinking of maybe remounting lights at wheel height, on the forks, as was the case with old bikes. That would sort out being able to have the lights pointing far enough ahead to make use of bright lights and still low enough, with the right beam pattern, to not dazzle drivers or recumbent riders.
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I was thinking of maybe remounting lights at wheel height, on the forks, as was the case with old bikes. That would sort out being able to have the lights pointing far enough ahead to make use of bright lights and still low enough, with the right beam pattern, to not dazzle drivers or recumbent riders.
Standard approach with dynamo lights, and with the B&M IQ reflector design it works very well.
I think getting dazzled is an occupational hazard on a low recumbent. There's no practical way to avoid it. But it does make me think about the other aspect of the lighting war: cars are getting taller.
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Dipped beams on a car are almost the same power as full beam (on Hella bi-xenon HIDs they're the same). It's only the optics that are different.
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I've just measured the lens of my Hope 1. It's less than 25mm diameter. Even car sidelights are bigger than that, and that's part of the reason bright bike lights can dazzle. It's not simply that they're putting out huge amounts of light - as has been noted they make less than car headlights - but that they concentrate it in a narrow area. We need to be spreading our light more cleverly - sideways a bit and limiting the height. It seems that B&M have started to do this, though I'm not sure how successfully. At the same time, for reasons already mentioned, a very sharp cut off can also be a problem. Surely a fuzzy cut off, fading over a short distance, could be made?
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Look at the huge lenses on these 1930s lights. They probably didn't produce much light, but something that size would be less dazzling, unless aimed high, with today's outputs.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-wGw6Ufni86Y/TtEyZdxN9VI/AAAAAAAAGs4/xqcOUPJngmk/s1600/P1070163.JPG)
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The Philips LED light I bought some months ago uses a similar reflector principle to the IQ lights but has two LEDs and perhaps 2-3x the frontal area. Experimenting with it, it's not remotely dazzling while putting out a great deal more light than the EDelux even on Eco mode (8h run time on 4xAa rechargeable). As far as I'm concerned this is a solved problem.
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Look at the huge lenses on these 1930s lights. They probably didn't produce much light, but something that size would be less dazzling, unless aimed high, with today's outputs.
Depends on the beam profile. A big diameter reflector that gives a really narrow searchlight beam can put more light intensity out than a wide-angle light that is smaller.
I used to have a big old torpedo dynamo light with just a 2.4 W incandescent bulb and a stupidly narrow beamwidth; it was entirely antisocial and also useless for illuminating the road :)
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The source diameter is largely irrelevant. What counts is the light intensity at your eyeball.
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As far as I'm concerned this is a solved problem.
Don't you realise there's a war on?
;)
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We need to be spreading our light more cleverly - sideways a bit and limiting the height. It seems that B&M have started to do this, though I'm not sure how successfully.
Fairly successfully, but mainly through putting the vast majority of the light where it's wanted - on the road. I wouldn't say their reflector makes it less dazzling if, for whatever reason, you do get an eyeful of it. Probably the opposite.
Indeed, I don't rate the B&M lights particularly highly for side visibility, due to the general lack of spill (even on the 'R' variant). This is probably why they've added extra 'be-seen' LEDs to the new version of the Cyo.
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Look at the huge lenses on these 1930s lights. They probably didn't produce much light, but something that size would be less dazzling, unless aimed high, with today's outputs.
Depends on the beam profile. A big diameter reflector that gives a really narrow searchlight beam can put more light intensity out than a wide-angle light that is smaller.
I used to have a big old torpedo dynamo light with just a 2.4 W incandescent bulb and a stupidly narrow beamwidth; it was entirely antisocial and also useless for illuminating the road :)
Wouldn't it be easier to make a nice beam profile if you had more reflector and lens area to play with? Besides which, you often can see the lens and it's that very bright 'disc' of light that then dazzles. Also, a larger surface area is going to be better for getting noticed (I reckon). In Poland loads of people have old-style 2.4W incandescents (non-halogen) powered by bottle dynamos, so not particularly bright but the large lens size is easily seen. Which, of course, doesn't necessarily mean they can see well.
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We need to be spreading our light more cleverly - sideways a bit and limiting the height. It seems that B&M have started to do this, though I'm not sure how successfully.
Fairly successfully, but mainly through putting the vast majority of the light where it's wanted - on the road. I wouldn't say their reflector makes it less dazzling if, for whatever reason, you do get an eyeful of it. Probably the opposite.
Indeed, I don't rate the B&M lights particularly highly for side visibility, due to the general lack of spill (even on the 'R' variant). This is probably why they've added extra 'be-seen' LEDs to the new version of the Cyo.
Surely the point is that by directing the vast majority of the light on the road, no one's going to get an eyeful of it. Unless they're in a low recumbent. :-\
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Surely the point is that by directing the vast majority of the light on the road, no one's going to get an eyeful of it. Unless they're in a low recumbent. :-\
Or there's a hill. Or a pothole. Or whatever. See the above arguments about car headlights.
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Wouldn't it be easier to make a nice beam profile if you had more reflector and lens area to play with?
Depends on the reflector shape. You could make one that gave an almost-parallel beam, so even if the lens was 10 cm in diameter the intensity at a few metres away could be huuuuge
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The Philips LED light I bought some months ago uses a similar reflector principle to the IQ lights but has two LEDs and perhaps 2-3x the frontal area. Experimenting with it, it's not remotely dazzling while putting out a great deal more light than the EDelux even on Eco mode (8h run time on 4xAa rechargeable). As far as I'm concerned this is a solved problem.
I can vouch for this - not dazzling at all, and the epic swathe of light it puts out makes it look more like a motorbike than a bike light. The fact it charges by USB too makes it the top battery light on my lust list. Sadly, my two hardy Ixons mean I have no possible justification to get one. Brilliant light tho.
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The Philips LED light I bought some months ago uses a similar reflector principle to the IQ lights but has two LEDs and perhaps 2-3x the frontal area. Experimenting with it, it's not remotely dazzling while putting out a great deal more light than the EDelux even on Eco mode (8h run time on 4xAa rechargeable). As far as I'm concerned this is a solved problem.
I can vouch for this - not dazzling at all, and the epic swathe of light it puts out makes it look more like a motorbike than a bike light. The fact it charges by USB too makes it the top battery light on my lust list. Sadly, my two hardy Ixons mean I have no possible justification to get one. Brilliant light tho.
Is that this one?
http://shop.philips.com/store?Action=DisplayProductDetailsPage&Locale=en_GB&SiteID=rpeeub2c&productID=239216300
It quotes a mere 220 lumen, so if it is, it shows up how meaningless are the high lumen figures some manufacturers count.
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That’s the one.
Downside is I managed to break the bracket quite quickly but i found you can buy those online, they are about £5.
I think it was cold weather plus ham fistedness, I bought a bunch of the brackets for spares and multiple bikes, and have not broken one since.
Some users (on this forum and elsewhere) have claimed it switches off too quickly but I have found it to deliver the claimed run times, and rode the entire Dunwich Dynamo using it.
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Lumen is a useless measurement as it is the total amount of light emitted.
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Hmm, I've heard other people complain about weak brackets on those lights - at least on the dynamo version, maybe it's a different bracket though. OTOH I've read some glowing reviews of its performance.
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They are the clamp and screw type. They work ok. Mine have done all my pbp qualifiers and pbp itself. I carried a spare after breaking the tab that locks it in place. I would say its a possible failure point. I have not seen anything remotely comparable in terms of performance as a road light.
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Surely the point is that by directing the vast majority of the light on the road, no one's going to get an eyeful of it. Unless they're in a low recumbent. :-\
Or there's a hill. Or a pothole. Or whatever. See the above arguments about car headlights.
Car headlights DID NOT USED TO BE THIS BAD. I've been driving for maybe 20 years, and it has got much worse quite recently (not everyone has a brand new car, so the time variance is blurred).
My guess is that the light is more focused either to the centre or the upper edge of the beam. I don't own such headlights so it's hard to say. (Efficiency has improved, so no doubt that has exarcebated the problem.)
HOWEVER they DO 'flash' other road users more than - say - 15 years ago.
So the problem IS avoidable.
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Been tested for cataracts, Matt? :P ;D
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Been tested for cataracts, Matt? :P ;D
What? Speak up!
Why do young people mumble these days?
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Andy: hate away:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwJwMMwThjQ
Awesome - what light is that? I'm sure it's been said somewhere in this thread already, but I can't find where.
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It's a Dinotte 400L - but now I want a DesignShine. Apparently the DesignShine makes the Dinotte look like a Cateye rear light, i.e. just about invisible. The Dinotte is quite bright, but not soul-destroyingly so. It's probably not remarkably different to car brake lights, but the flash pattern makes it considerably more offensive than the fixed-on setting.
Must admit I felt a bit guilty about forgetting to turn it onto a group ride friendly setting on that ride, and on the more recent one with h_W.
I'm slightly sceptical that the Phillips light Simon is on about is really that good. I mean I'm sure it's a very good light, but I'm sceptical about it having any chance at all of competing with a modern super light like teethgrinder's Exposure SixPack (2000 lumens, almost), or even a more down-to-earth MaXx-D. Of course I'm with everyone who thinks that our LED lights really ought to have better optics closer to those on car headlights to allow for proper dip and full beam settings.
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I have one. Had the original one LED rear as well (think Jellied has it now). Incredibly bright and needs to be pointed down, otherwise it is like strobing fog lights.
I don't think brighter will help you, Wendy, ou but a higher up light would. As well as testing my lights with other people using them, I take an interest in the comments colleagues make if they pass me on my commute. Interestingly, it isn't the Dinotte that they notice buy the 1/2 watt smart on the back of my helmet. They notice it because it is high up and they can see it even if there are cars between them and me.
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Oh, I'm not worried about people not noticing me. I want a remote button for the light to GET THE FUCK OFF MY REAR and stop tailgating me. ;D
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Car headlights DID NOT USED TO BE THIS BAD. I've been driving for maybe 20 years, and it has got much worse quite recently
I've been driving almost 30 years.
During that time cars had headlights with 45/55W dip/main tungsten lamps. They then changed to 55/60W halogen, and now HiD.
Even ignoring the illegal lamps, the output has risen from the lamps from a yellowish glow to high intensity blue white light. That allows greater illumination for the increasing amount of high speed driving but has has made lighting more of a problem in urban conditions and when headlight aim is poor.
We could go back to 45/55W tungsten and we could also return to candles. Maybe what is needed is legal lower power urban lighting on motor vehicles in areas with street lighting. But how many drivers would remember, or bother, switching their light output to suit.
Maybe for cycle lights a large illuminated area would be more effective then tiny lenses.
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It's a Dinotte 400L - but now I want a DesignShine. Apparently the DesignShine makes the Dinotte look like a Cateye rear light, i.e. just about invisible. The Dinotte is quite bright, but not soul-destroyingly so. It's probably not remarkably different to car brake lights, but the flash pattern makes it considerably more offensive than the fixed-on setting.
Must admit I felt a bit guilty about forgetting to turn it onto a group ride friendly setting on that ride, and on the more recent one with h_W.
I'm slightly sceptical that the Phillips light Simon is on about is really that good. I mean I'm sure it's a very good light, but I'm sceptical about it having any chance at all of competing with a modern super light like teethgrinder's Exposure SixPack (2000 lumens, almost), or even a more down-to-earth MaXx-D. Of course I'm with everyone who thinks that our LED lights really ought to have better optics closer to those on car headlights to allow for proper dip and full beam settings.
jesus that looks nice, have you enquired as to availability?
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...
but has has made lighting more of a problem in urban conditions and when headlight aim is poor.
We could go back to 45/55W tungsten and we could also return to candles. Maybe what is needed is legal lower power urban lighting on motor vehicles in areas with street lighting. But how many drivers would remember, or bother, switching their light output to suit.
Completely agree. Don't forget that the law ONLY requires sidelights in lit urban areas, as was discussed here:
http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=53453.msg1090094#msg1090094
It would be nice to think that road users would turn down their lights - when appropriate - because they notice how nice it is when others do so O:-)
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Dim-dip was intended to address a different problem (by making it impossible to drive on sidelights alone) but gave a similar solution.
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I'm slightly sceptical that the Phillips light Simon is on about is really that good. I mean I'm sure it's a very good light, but I'm sceptical about it having any chance at all of competing with a modern super light like teethgrinder's Exposure SixPack (2000 lumens, almost), or even a more down-to-earth MaXx-D. Of course I'm with everyone who thinks that our LED lights really ought to have better optics closer to those on car headlights to allow for proper dip and full beam settings.
Don't be. The floody magicshine and exposure lights are obviously better for trails, but they are putting 2/3rd their light in the sky and hedgerows. In terms of light on the road, the Philips looks better to me. In terms of being seen, obviously, the floody lights have the "my eyes are burning" factor on their side, but nobody could fail to notice the Philips. It's spread of light is somewhat intimidating without being antisocial like the magicshine lights.
That said, if I was riding a lowracer through central london, and I had a family at home waiting for me, I'd probably use the magicshines. From your videos, on your route you need all the help you can get.
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Well, we've had discussions before about the unsuitability of lowriders on busy urban roads, but best avoided as Wendy gets very touchy about it.
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1/3rd of 2000 lumens is not 200 lumens. ;)
I have very few videos at all where someone didn't see me. I like powerful lights because they alter the way drivers treat me. Mostly, I don't want to be seen as a cyclist, because being seen as a cyclist immediately results in less good treatment and more taking the mickey by some of the less skilled drivers. I love how you (it's a general you, so many people seem to do this) jump on the being seen "problem", but it's a case of wrong conclusions.
It's actually much worse on an upright, they have the invisibility problem in my experience. I actually have very little trouble at all, youtubing concentrates a huge amount of mileage down to a few seconds, it's perhaps 1 in 5000 drivers that get uploaded as a result of their driving.
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Well, we've had discussions before about the unsuitability of lowriders on busy urban roads, but best avoided as Wendy gets very touchy about it.
Sure, there are situations where lowracers aren't good, but they relate mostly to disadvantages in manoeuvering and filtering through multiple lanes of stationary traffic. My particular commute doesn't have too much of this, meaning that the advantages of the lowracer make it a good choice. If my commute changed, I might well go back to using an upright. From a safety and visibility point of view, they are a huge win over uprights.
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I've no experience of riding one, but Im struggling with your last sentence
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I'm slightly sceptical that the Phillips light Simon is on about is really that good. I mean I'm sure it's a very good light, but I'm sceptical about it having any chance at all of competing with a modern super light like teethgrinder's Exposure SixPack (2000 lumens, almost), or even a more down-to-earth MaXx-D. Of course I'm with everyone who thinks that our LED lights really ought to have better optics closer to those on car headlights to allow for proper dip and full beam settings.
I think you're getting too obsessed with numbers and/or the amount of light. Simon made it pretty clear that the shaped beam is a big factor for him, but you've gone back to just comparing outputs.
I'll repeat this for clarity - the shaped beam isn't just benefiting Simon!
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It's actually much worse on an upright, they have the invisibility problem in my experience.
Completely agreed.
A recumbent limits what *you* can see to the same sort of level as the average car driver. A low one adds extra dazzling issues in some situations. But you're in control, and if you can't see, you slow down or stop.
While they're not my first choice for riding in city traffic (for manoeuvrability and security reasons, mostly), I've never felt invisible on a recumbent like I do on a normal bike. And if you're paranoid about how it'll look in court, by all means overcook the lighting a bit or use a flag.
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I have Magicshine front and rear lights, this is the rear:
(http://img.dxcdn.com/productimages/sku_42077_10.jpg)
Which looks like this to my phone camera (I use on steady setting so a video clip would not provide any further info):
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6053/6310471718_093a85ba52.jpg)
Note how much room the unpiloted bike gets, it was always like that, until that is the central 3W led blew (probably because I had it mounted with the cable exit uppermost and rain got in) and now its back to the usual mixture of close and good passes with just the outer ring of LEDS lit (and a flashing light on my helmet).
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Dim-dip was intended to address a different problem (by making it impossible to drive on sidelights alone) but gave a similar solution.
It was legal for a couple of years, but is now banned.
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I've no experience of riding one, but Im struggling with your last sentence
I guess what Wendy means is that as recumbents are rare, they are more readily noticed.
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I've no experience of riding one, but Im struggling with your last sentence
I rode an ICE Sprint through Birmingham rush hour traffic for about an hour yesterday. I got exactly *zero* unsafe overtakes (most overtakers actually used their indicators!), pullings-out at junctions requiring me to brake, etc. Doing the same journey on a Streetmachine, I might expect one or two. Compare with the typical experience on an upright bicycle.
I think that's what Wendy is getting at.
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I'm slightly sceptical that the Phillips light Simon is on about is really that good. I mean I'm sure it's a very good light, but I'm sceptical about it having any chance at all of competing with a modern super light like teethgrinder's Exposure SixPack (2000 lumens, almost), or even a more down-to-earth MaXx-D. Of course I'm with everyone who thinks that our LED lights really ought to have better optics closer to those on car headlights to allow for proper dip and full beam settings.
I think you're getting too obsessed with numbers and/or the amount of light. Simon made it pretty clear that the shaped beam is a big factor for him, but you've gone back to just comparing outputs.
I'll repeat this for clarity - the shaped beam isn't just benefiting Simon!
Zackly - but Wendy seems to take a certain pleasure in giving people "a free headache" and uses rear lights to tell people to "GET THE FUCK OFF MY REAR". Not things I use my lights for, but I'm sure his are good at it.
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I've no experience of riding one, but Im struggling with your last sentence
I rode an ICE Sprint through Birmingham rush hour traffic for about an hour yesterday. I got exactly *zero* unsafe overtakes (most overtakers actually used their indicators!), pullings-out at junctions requiring me to brake, etc. Doing the same journey on a Streetmachine, I might expect one or two. Compare with the typical experience on an upright bicycle.
I think that's what Wendy is getting at.
I can envisage that.
It's when they can't see you that bothers me.
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For the front Magicshine I have swapped out the lens with one of these wide beam ones:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wide-Angle-Lens-4-MagicShine-Gemini-Lupine-Bike-Light-/280752532003?_trksid=p4340.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DDLSL%252BSIC.NPJS%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BUA%26otn%3D10%26pmod%3D300545626206%252B300545626206%26po%3D%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D4608655996468539546
(this looks similar: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wide-Angle-Lens-Magicshine-Lupine-and-Gemini-Bike-Lights-/260892501919?_trksid=p4340.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DDLSL%252BSIC.NPJS%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BUA%26otn%3D10%26pmod%3D300545626206%252B300545626206%26po%3D%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D4608663484475840596 )
Quite effective IME, letting less light shine upwards and lighting up the road edge quite nicely as well, but I still dip the light down for oncoming vehicles.
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It's when they can't see you that bothers me.
I think those situations are going to be the ones where they're cognitively only looking for cars (on roundabouts, for example), and an upright bike will fare just as badly. Best mitigated with assertive road positioning, good lights, and the assumption that everyone's going to drive like idiots, but yes there's always going to be a risk.
At which point on a 'bent at least I suppose I'll crash feet-first and land on my shoulder/hip rather than head-first and land on my wrist/collarbone. :-\
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I'm slightly sceptical that the Phillips light Simon is on about is really that good. I mean I'm sure it's a very good light, but I'm sceptical about it having any chance at all of competing with a modern super light like teethgrinder's Exposure SixPack (2000 lumens, almost), or even a more down-to-earth MaXx-D. Of course I'm with everyone who thinks that our LED lights really ought to have better optics closer to those on car headlights to allow for proper dip and full beam settings.
I think you're getting too obsessed with numbers and/or the amount of light. Simon made it pretty clear that the shaped beam is a big factor for him, but you've gone back to just comparing outputs.
I'll repeat this for clarity - the shaped beam isn't just benefiting Simon!
Others have said that the Philips is at least as good as 1000 lumen symmetric beam lights.
Here is a shot of the illumination it provides:
(http://swhs.home.xs4all.nl/fiets/tests/verlichting/lichtbundel/lichtbundels-2010-11-21/small1600/lbl-weg1.jpg)
Note how uniform the illumination is. This is something not achieved with a symmetric beam and you need to both account for the light spill (which is dangerous for oncoming traffic) and the fact that to get the same minimum illumination of the road you need a far, far higher maximum illumination, which means you need even more because of the effect of the bright spot in front of you.
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Light spill is actually very useful, and there's lots present in car headlights, even on dip. It's particularly useful when the corners get tight. The limit to the upward spill is what we all want to avoid blinding oncoming vehicles.
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Light spill is actually very useful, and there's lots present in car headlights, even on dip. It's particularly useful when the corners get tight. The limit to the upward spill is what we all want to avoid blinding oncoming vehicles.
Hence symmetric beams are out. Good.
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Oh, I'm sure just about everyone here thinks better optics for road use are a good thing, yes? Not just for other road users, but also for improved effectiveness of our own lights. I thought we'd all agreed upon that point already?
OTOH I'm not sure that a MTB style light is such a big problem on the roads. Most of the brightness/dazzling issue to me seems to be people offended that bikes could have lights almost as bright as car lights. Apparently that's not right, that's NOT ALLOWED.
I think I posted this before:
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5281/5332046667_34c2fd6e4e.jpg)
That's an older cars headlights on dip, so not as bright as many more modern cars, and an Exposure MaXx-D on full power pointed straight at the camera. Additionally, my boy is wearing a hiviz coat and I've pointed an Exposure Joystick on full power towards him. Before people argue camera settings, the image is reasonably representative of what my own eyes saw at the time.
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[I don't really understand what your piccie is proving :-\ . But anyway ... ]
As a CYCLIST the only serious problems I have are with:
- Drivers on unlit roads failing to dip soon enough
- Oncoming cyclists with very bright (probably conical-beamed) lights. Especially bad if encountered on cycle-paths!
You'll appreciate that I cannot tell what make/model/style the latter lights are, so I can't really get into a detailed debate about which ones are problematic. I can't honestly remember a cyclist dipping his lights (in any way) on seeing me coming his/her way.
Forum threads like this one - and many similar ones on other fora - confirm that I'm not some weirdo with outdated or over-sensitive eyesight, as lots of people have made the same observations. It does rather seem that the users who are defending their own choice of super-bright light are also failing to acknowledge that there is a problem.
I'm alright Jack!
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Oh, I'm sure just about everyone here thinks better optics for road use are a good thing, yes? Not just for other road users, but also for improved effectiveness of our own lights. I thought we'd all agreed upon that point already?
OTOH I'm not sure that a MTB style light is such a big problem on the roads. Most of the brightness/dazzling issue to me seems to be people offended that bikes could have lights almost as bright as car lights. Apparently that's not right, that's NOT ALLOWED.
What’s not allowed is using a light that dazzles or otherwise inconveniences another road user - because it’s illegal.
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My point is that I don't think the dazzle problem is real or significant. I quite often meet the bigfoot bike club riders on my commute, and they have the usual seriously expensive bike lights. They're not remarkably different to car lights in my perception, just whiter and slightly odd as they don't move as fast as cars do.
As for proof, well, I can't give it myself, obv., but I hardly ever get oncoming cars flashing me to dip my light, even on full power and pointed straight down the road. I think it's less than once every couple of months, and I imagine I easily pass somewhere between 20,000 to 150,000 cars in that sort of timeframe. Additionally its obvious that car lights deliver more light at the receiving end given how they so easily wash out a powerful light like mine as cars overtake me.
To me it's all about bikes not being allowed to have lights like car lights, and that the intense white colour of LED lights is somehow less pleasant to some people than the warmer yellow glow of car halogens. Finally I've wondered whether the flashing of LED lights (even on "constant", they are flashing, just very fast) might not add to our dislike of them?
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I can't honestly remember a cyclist dipping his lights (in any way) on seeing me coming his/her way.
On the BCM I set up my EDelux as a main beam and the Philips as my dipped beam for the night stage. If you had been really slow I would have ‘dipped’ (i.e. turned off the EDelux) for you when we crossed on the common out/back leg*. I was able to descend at about 50kph (limited by spinning rather than lighting) quite comfortably.
There /is/ a problem with excessively bright bike lights. I think the small frontal area is an issue, because the same point on the road is illuminated from more places with a large surface area light, and focusing on the light doesn’t result in it all arriving in a small area of the retina which is overloaded.
* I also saw a couple of riders riding the wrong way on the back leg. Cheats!
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I think the small frontal area is an issue, because the same point on the road is illuminated from more places with a large surface area light, and focusing on the light doesn’t result in it all arriving in a small area of the retina which is overloaded.
I think this was addressed earlier - source width isn't very relevant at all. See Mal Volio's post for confirmation.
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I think the small frontal area is an issue, because the same point on the road is illuminated from more places with a large surface area light, and focusing on the light doesn’t result in it all arriving in a small area of the retina which is overloaded.
I think this was addressed earlier - source width isn't very relevant at all. See Mal Volio's post for confirmation.
Er, no.
This is why a 60W fluorescent light isn’t dazzling but a clear glass incandescent bulb at the same power *is* despite both providing the same surface illumination.
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OTOH I'm not sure that a MTB style light is such a big problem on the roads. Most of the brightness/dazzling issue to me seems to be people offended that bikes could have lights almost as bright as car lights. Apparently that's not right, that's NOT ALLOWED.
To me it's all about bikes not being allowed to have lights like car lights, and that the intense white colour of LED lights is somehow less pleasant to some people than the warmer yellow glow of car halogens. Finally I've wondered whether the flashing of LED lights (even on "constant", they are flashing, just very fast) might not add to our dislike of them?
This is curious. Who has said that bike lights are not allowed to have lights like car lights? I'd quite like it if I could have the same output, beam shape and simple controls, in a package that was light and small enough to fit on handlebars or fork crown.
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Er, no.
This is why a 60W fluorescent light isn’t dazzling but a clear glass incandescent bulb at the same power *is* despite both providing the same surface illumination.
Hmm, that's actually quite well put, given that fluorescent bulbs are perhaps 10 times as efficient as incandescents.
I'm not sure whether I have a good return argument for that, I'll get back to you. My initial thought is that despite the fluorescent light being more powerful, its light is going everywhere in many different directions, whilst the tungsten light is much more parallel, so you still get more of it to the same place in your eye.
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I hardly ever get oncoming cars flashing me to dip my light, even on full power and pointed straight down the road.
To some extent this depends where you ride. If you ride on lit streets then you have all the background clutter of other lights and maybe can justify a hyper light by having to compete with this clutter. On the other hand, if you ride mainly in pitch black lanes then you will find that some motorists coming the other way will simply stop. This also applies to some extent with rear lights as well. I have noticed that in lanes where people pass easily and safely during daylight they will hang back for a long time before passing after dark. I use a Cateye LD1100 with one row on constant and one on flash, so compared with some hyper lights it is pretty feeble.
In the lanes a bright front light can cause problems that do not exist with more feeble lights. I use a Philips LED headlight on dim usually or bright for very dark areas. There are some places where I have to ride more slowly with the Philips than I did with 3W halogen lights because I cannot see the exit of the tight right hand bends. I cannot see beyond my lights. This gets us into the lighting wars of "I cannot see so I need more light (like motor cars have done)" whereas it may be better for everybody to have less.
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I think I'd agree with that - but having at least a decently powerful light does help encourage drivers to pull over at a passing place rather than blatting through when they think you're only a cyclist.
Riding in London's light is a good reason to have more powerful lights, and I have a remote button to control my headlight for when I enter the country lanes section.
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If you ride on lit streets then you have all the background clutter of other lights and maybe can justify a hyper light by having to compete with this clutter. On the other hand, if you ride mainly in pitch black lanes then <snip>
In the lanes a bright front light can cause problems that do not exist with more feeble lights.
This.
I mentioned somewhere that I got out my really feeble light (http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.bike-x-perts.com/images/Smart-Polaris-E-Line.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.bike-x-perts.com/product_info.php/products_id/131841&usg=__unyk2XcHngTPBCZY0RDg9I3J_wc=&h=300&w=400&sz=20&hl=en&start=11&zoom=1&tbnid=6sXbpZ_SIgiNuM:&tbnh=93&tbnw=124&ei=5APaTvDpMcHBhAfEuJ3EDg&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dsmart%2Beline%26tbnh%3D163%26tbnw%3D214%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sig%3D108168824177747948302%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D885%26tbs%3Dsimg:CAESEgm7kew6Z3PO1yF6wPKFfpI_1iw%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1) one dark ride (for which read icba to swap over my dynamo hub) which was fine to see by in the pitch black ('cos my eyes adjust etc.) but the moment any other light appeared (car, porch light, floodlit farm/church, etc) then I was bedazzled to squinting sideways-ness to be able to see. In towns, my eyes adjusted to streetlights and car lights weren't a problem - it's the contrast.
So what is to be done.
Lights to see by, cars, town - not required where there is street lighting - didn't there used to be some rule that said you didn't need headlights if the street lights were less than 30 yards apart? Up for debate.
Lights to see by, cars, unlit streets - need to be able to see for xxx seconds ahead, whatever is sufficient for that at 70mph and no brighter
Lights to see by, bikes, town - similar to car sidelights
Lights to see by, bikes, unlit streets - same response as for cars, though your top speed may be less than 70mph
Lights to be seen by - not clear whether they need to be brighter of dimmer than the lights to see by.
Better go and chew it over a bit more, it's got to beat going shopping. :sick:
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I'm not sure whether I have a good return argument for that, I'll get back to you. My initial thought is that despite the fluorescent light being more powerful, its light is going everywhere in many different directions, whilst the tungsten light is much more parallel, so you still get more of it to the same place in your eye.
Nahh, from a reasonable distance, in the absence of any optics, and disregarding the bits where the electrical stuff connects, a tungsten lamp approximates a point source radiating equally in all directions, and the fluorescent tube a line source radiating in all directions. I reckon it comes down to a simple matter of power per unit area (of the source, and correspondingly of the image formed on the retina) - the flurry has a *lot* more area.
Area is clearly a good thing for be-seen lights: just look at the fibre flare. There's this effect, which means you can use more power or flashing modes that would be offensive in a point-source, and there's a sort of giving-something-to-focus-on effect, which I reckon is extremely helpful for allowing others to correctly judge your speed, and allows a cyclist in the middle distance to stand out against point sources in the background.
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A car driver dipped for me this evening. I had my Hope 1 on level 2 and was in an unlit bit of road on Bristol Downs, the car was on a nearby lit section of the same road (so why did he have his lights on high beam? I don't know.) Of course, this could mean I was dazzling them or it could just mean they saw me and realised I could be dazzled. In fact I wasn't.
Ten seconds earlier I had entered the unlit section and put my light up to 3. After one second it cut out - not enough power in the batteries. But it still worked on levels 1 and 2 (so why can't they make it just drop down a level when there's insufficient juice in the batteries? Grrr.) I stopped for a while to admire the view of the Suspension Bridge all lit up from the dark of Sea Wall - then I realised there were various cars parked in the darkness around, with people sitting in them... so I moved on before someone came up to me and asked if was "a friend of Roger". ;)
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After a woman in our club was killed last year after being rear ended by a Land Rover (a car with
supposedly very good all around views), I went out and bought a Dinotte 400L. It's for my safety;
I don't want to get rear end by another driver not paying attention. If a rider comes up behind me
and tells me he/she thinks it's too bright, I tell that it's for my safety (I'm the one who judges what's
safe for me) and not their convenience. They can either continue to ride on ahead of me (I'm normally very slow),
or stay well back.
I know it goes against the grain of current opinion on this topic, but ultimately, I don't thinks it's
being selfish, I'm doing what I think is best for my safety. Curiously, motor vehicles seem to give
me more room when they overtake me when I use the Dinotte.
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I know it goes against the grain of current opinion on this topic, but ultimately, I don't thinks it's
being selfish, I'm doing what I think is best for my safety. Curiously, motor vehicles seem to give
me more room when they overtake me when I use the Dinotte.
Not at all, the thread irritation is about front lights after all. Decent rear lights are seen by virtually everyone as a very good thing, as long as you turn them down and to steady in a group. If I happen across someone with super bright flashing rear lights that's no problem, either they will be faster and disappear into the distance, or slower and I pass them, or, more usually ride alongside for a bit to say hello.
Front lights are a different thing altogether. Only a complete knob would use flashing mode in complete darkness (though there are a few) but until this year, if I saw a cyclist coming towards me I've thought "fantastic, someone else out using their bike as transport and not resorting to the car just because it's cold and dark". This year, it's different: easily half the cyclists I've seen this winter have had stupid bright, undirectional, lights on bike and head. Not as many as there are drivers who don't dip, but enough that I've started to tell people to turn it down. One last week was aiming his head torch straight at me while shouting a cheery hello - surely he could see I was shielding my eyes even if he didn't hear my mumbled cursing.
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Oh and car drivers: one kind, considerate driver last week stopped to let me go over a narrow bridge first. The only thing was they stopped on the rise to the hump of the bridge so their lights completely and utterly blinded me, couldn't see the road let alone the walls on the bridge, so I stopped, with my hands shielding my eyes. They waited. They were probably sitting there waving me to come through. Even if they couldn't work out how brightly lit up I was surely my hands over my eyes were a clue? ::-)
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After a woman in our club was killed last year after being rear ended by a Land Rover (a car with
supposedly very good all around views), I went out and bought a Dinotte 400L. It's for my safety;
I don't want to get rear end by another driver not paying attention.
Perhaps you should avoid the road where that happened. It's a pretty rare kind of incident - you'd improve your odds more by getting off and walking at every roundabout.
If a rider comes up behind me and tells me he/she thinks it's too bright, I tell that it's for my safety (I'm the one who judges what's safe for me) and not their convenience. They can either continue to ride on ahead of me (I'm normally very slow), or stay well back.
It can take a long time to catch and pass these over-bright lights. You clearly know there is a problem - cyclists (and Audaxers) are such a timid lot, that getting even a few complaints says to me that you are irritating almost everyone. How about stopping to LET other riders pass? You;re the cause of the problem - how about solving it?
Just consider the scenario of EVERONE - cyclists and drivers - using these over-the-top lights. It would be pretty awful (and the car drivers have juice to run lights much more powerful than yours).
Matt
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MaXx-D in daytime:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4ZiVqAKoDE
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We'll have to brush up on our Morse code, obviously.
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Just got a Fibreflare, having seen a couple on my commute - very effective! I have mine running across the back of my Barley, with a Pixeo on the guard directly below.
I think two separated steady rear lights on a bike helps the oblivious motons judge, when they can be bothered, my speed.
I really like the Fibreflare :)
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I run a smart r2 on the seat post and a standard 7 led flasher on each pannier along with a 100 lumen flasher on the front with a magicshine for unlit sections and i cant remember the last time i had a close overtake, maybe its because the width of the lights in a triangle from behind makes the other road users perceive you as wider than what they think a cycle should be so they give me plenty of room ?
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along with a 100 lumen flasher on the front
:facepalm:
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along with a 100 lumen flasher on the front
:facepalm:
Yup gotta remember i ride on unlit country lanes so i need to use a decent light , the benefit of running a flasher and a steady beam is that you make sure the driver has seen you and you can see where your going and they can judge you distance as well.Properly angled this does not cause a problem.
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Just got a Fibreflare, having seen a couple on my commute - very effective! I have mine running across the back of my Barley, with a Pixeo on the guard directly below.
I think two separated steady rear lights on a bike helps the oblivious motons judge, when they can be bothered, my speed.
I really like the Fibreflare :)
I've discovered a new use for my fibreflare; clipping to the back of toddlers when walking along the lane to the pub park. I've just ordered the shorter 25cm version in addition as i think it will fit Barley D rings perfectly, without the need for the little karabiners I'm using to fix mine at the moment.
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Every semi serious cycling twanker and his dog is buying magic shine clones on the bay and then tootling down the towpath with them.
It's considered polite to turn these things off when you are head on to other peds and cyclist, perhaps have a slightly less bright head torch so you can kill the main beam and carefully make your way past people, perhaps even fit a bell. It is not however considerd polite to hurl abuse and threats when people suggest that you point it down a bit or turn it off until you have safely passed people - it may in fact even lead to nose bleeds and dental problems if you continue with such behaviour as not everyone is as forgiving as I am - like the fat middle aged king of the hi-viz decided to do last night.
May he fall arse first on his pump and get it stuck there.
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MaXx-D in daytime:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4ZiVqAKoDE
In the above video, the car lights are more dazzling than the MaXx-D.
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Just got a Fibreflare, having seen a couple on my commute - very effective! I have mine running across the back of my Barley, with a Pixeo on the guard directly below.
I think two separated steady rear lights on a bike helps the oblivious motons judge, when they can be bothered, my speed.
I really like the Fibreflare :)
I've discovered a new use for my fibreflare; clipping to the back of toddlers when walking along the lane to the pub park. I've just ordered the shorter 25cm version in addition as i think it will fit Barley D rings perfectly, without the need for the little karabiners I'm using to fix mine at the moment.
I have the standard one mounted so that the pen cap style clips are pushed through the small gap in the double layer of strap just above the top buckles - tight fit but sadly they don't go in far - and a very thin cable tie around the Flare and through the light fitting strap in the middle of the lid of the Barley. All sits nice and straight, with the clips only partially into the straps. Batteries can be changed in situ. Parking? Bag and Flare come off as one.
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I have my Dinotte 140 LiOn and the Exposure Flare on the back. On the front I have my Lumicycle LED4 but I only use it in low mode as that is plenty bright enough for me and gives me excellent battery life. I have my Exposure Joystick as back up but I don't use it in flashing mode at this time of year or at night.
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Every semi serious cycling twanker and his dog is buying magic shine clones on the bay and then tootling down the towpath with them.
It's considered polite to turn these things off when you are head on to other peds and cyclist, perhaps have a slightly less bright head torch so you can kill the main beam and carefully make your way past people, perhaps even fit a bell. It is not however considerd polite to hurl abuse and threats when people suggest that you point it down a bit or turn it off until you have safely passed people - it may in fact even lead to nose bleeds and dental problems if you continue with such behaviour as not everyone is as forgiving as I am - like the fat middle aged king of the hi-viz decided to do last night.
May he fall arse first on his pump and get it stuck there.
Well said :thumbsup: