Author Topic: First Superhighway Fatality.  (Read 18770 times)

Re: First Superhighway Fatality.
« Reply #150 on: 13 December, 2011, 07:16:31 am »
Hmmmmm.

Gridlock or dead cyclists ?

Why do you think they are mutually exclusive? The LCC version is unworkable in practice. Blocking the exits of the roundabouts to give a tiny minority of the traffic flow priority will cause mayhem.

You've got the proportion of cyclists versus motorised vehicles?
If the proportion of cyclists is higher then the LCC concept is even less workable.

Putting traffic lights on the exit of a roundabout is absolutely contrary to the principles of a roundabout, they can only work if there is a pedestrian phase. e.g. chiswick roundabout where the concept is much closer to Davids idea as there pedestrian and cycle routes through the centre of the roundabout.

Speshact

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Re: First Superhighway Fatality.
« Reply #151 on: 13 December, 2011, 07:33:38 am »
The pedestrian aspect is another massive fail in the existing Bow layout according to Diamond Geezer - interesting blog with suggested pedestrian solutions that tie in with David's cycling ones

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: First Superhighway Fatality.
« Reply #152 on: 13 December, 2011, 10:08:12 am »
Not so much "massive fail" as "never considered relevant" when it was first designed 40-odd years ago.
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Re: First Superhighway Fatality.
« Reply #153 on: 13 December, 2011, 10:31:21 am »
Putting traffic lights on the exit of a roundabout is absolutely contrary to the principles of a roundabout, they can only work if there is a pedestrian phase. e.g. chiswick roundabout where the concept is much closer to Davids idea as there pedestrian and cycle routes through the centre of the roundabout.

Yes, but large roundabouts without lights don't work well with heavy traffic, so traffic lights are already used quite a lot - some (not enough) with a flashing amber mode for late nights.

I reckon the combination of cycle-lane removal at junctions, "early green" traffic lights for cyclists, and greater enforcement for driving offences will save lives.  Peculiar alternative routes for cyclists should only be needed at huge junctions.  The junction in question isn't huge and isn't currently much out of the ordinary, apart from the stupid cycle lanes that encourage dangerous positioning.
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David Martin

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Re: First Superhighway Fatality.
« Reply #154 on: 13 December, 2011, 10:46:11 am »
Your points are valid, but there are many who will not want to ride round such a roundabout. There is also the need for decent pedestrian access. Providing a shared use alternative facility would enable less confident riders and pedestrians to safely navigate the Bow roundabout.
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Re: First Superhighway Fatality.
« Reply #155 on: 13 December, 2011, 11:06:39 am »
Why does it have to be a roundabout?
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David Martin

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Re: First Superhighway Fatality.
« Reply #156 on: 13 December, 2011, 11:10:36 am »
It doesn't But how would you redesign it otherwise?

"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Re: First Superhighway Fatality.
« Reply #157 on: 13 December, 2011, 11:19:51 am »
While I don't have any problems with roundabouts, they are pretty difficult to negotiate on a bike (I'm referring to large-multi-lane ones). No matter how good you are at positioning yourself, there will always be some muppets who push past and swap lanes without warning.

The only really safe solution is to bypass them, by underpass or bridge. Expensive.
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Re: First Superhighway Fatality.
« Reply #158 on: 13 December, 2011, 11:20:01 am »
It doesn't But how would you redesign it otherwise?

I don't think roundabouts are very good designs for cyclists, and I wonder whether it couldn't be made into a more conventional traffic light controlled junction instead. Of course that would still be a challenging junction to cycle across, but I think it might be considerably less dangerous.

Of course I know the answer already. The all consuming human sacrifice requiring god of TRAFFIC FLOW. Thank you TfL.
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David Martin

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Re: First Superhighway Fatality.
« Reply #159 on: 13 December, 2011, 11:22:43 am »
Fine for hand waving. Try drawing some designs and fitting it around the existing pillars etc there. It might work. It might end up looking very much like it does now.

..d
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Philip Benstead

  • Cycling4ALL - say No Bike No Life
Roundabouts
« Reply #160 on: 13 December, 2011, 11:27:26 am »


IMHO, if we can't get rid of the roundabout, we need to change the deflection angle.  What does that mean; make all vehicles slow down before entering and levering a roundabout, but of course, that will reduce the capacity of the roundabout.  That is the rub.


http://www.nottinghamshire.gov.uk/cdg-chapter8.pdf

http://www.teachamerica.com/roundabouts/RA050_ppt_Lenters.pdf

http://www.teachamerica.com/roundabouts/RA050_ppt_Ritchie.pdf

https://www.dot.ny.gov/portal/page/portal/main/roundabouts/files/eiupdate.pdf?nd=nysdot
Philip Benstead B.Env.Sc. (Hons.), NSI

Independent Cycle Campaigner and Cycle Consultant
DfT accredited BikeAbility Instructor / L3 Mechanic
07949801698 cycling4westminster@gmail.com

David Martin

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Re: First Superhighway Fatality.
« Reply #161 on: 13 December, 2011, 11:54:29 am »
I'm not sure that the deflection angle is an issue as the roundabout is traffic light controlled. If there were no traffic lights then it would be a prudent thing to change.

As it is, vehicles entering the roundabout are primarily doing so to turn left or right rather than go straight on so will be expecting to slow anyway.


"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Re: First Superhighway Fatality.
« Reply #162 on: 13 December, 2011, 11:57:13 am »
Putting traffic lights on the exit of a roundabout is absolutely contrary to the principles of a roundabout, they can only work if there is a pedestrian phase. e.g. chiswick roundabout where the concept is much closer to Davids idea as there pedestrian and cycle routes through the centre of the roundabout.

Yes, but large roundabouts without lights don't work well with heavy traffic, so traffic lights are already used quite a lot - some (not enough) with a flashing amber mode for late nights.

I reckon the combination of cycle-lane removal at junctions, "early green" traffic lights for cyclists, and greater enforcement for driving offences will save lives.  Peculiar alternative routes for cyclists should only be needed at huge junctions.  The junction in question isn't huge and isn't currently much out of the ordinary, apart from the stupid cycle lanes that encourage dangerous positioning.
Roundabouts have a design capcity, it is higher than the equivilent junction as a traffic lighted cross roads, however once the capacity is exceeded then the capacity drops of massively. Traffic lights by contrast maintain their maximum capacity once the demand exceeds it. In most cases you only see traffic lights retro fitted to roundabouts at the entrances to a roundabout and on the roundabout itself they are not on the exit sliproads as whilst this reduces the peak capacity of a roundabout it is then maintained even when exceeded as the traffic is prevented from entering the roundabout. Roundabouts like this work well until one of the exit arms jams back onto the roundabout itself when the whole system collapses.

I don't know the Bow roundabout but would suggest that it is probably simmilar in traffic volumes to Chiswick roundabout (A4 A406) junction which is overflown by the M4 elevated. At this location the traffic lights at the entrances and on the roundabout are used to get pedestrians to the centre of the roundabout and then out to their exit by combining a green pedestrian phase with the red traffic phase. Where pedestrian lights are provided across the exit lanes they are set back from the roundabout to reduce the risk of the traffic queueing back onto the roundabout and are only really provided to enable crossing of one arm any further travel round the roundabout is intended to be via the centre.

Changing the deflection angle is to slow down traffic on a free flowing roundabout however this is already achieved by the red lights and traffic volumes but may be tweaked by the phasing to avoid a green wave at higher speeds.

Cyclist need to either get out of the way of the 'sprint from the line' (an early green, as sometimes seen for buses, would do this but I can't see it being understood or respected by drivers) or need to get away from the kerb unless they are turning left. This is how I ride large roundabouts, the lane is mine and I will get to 10-15mph as quickly as the cars around me. Unfortunately the blue paint encourages cyclists to go straight on from the left hand kerb.

David Martin

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Re: First Superhighway Fatality.
« Reply #163 on: 13 December, 2011, 12:04:53 pm »
Yes, the Chiswick one is a pretty good model for what could be done easily and relatively cheaply.
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Biggsy

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Re: First Superhighway Fatality.
« Reply #164 on: 13 December, 2011, 12:10:00 pm »
It is not going to be difficult for drivers to understand that a lit-up green bicycle sign on a set of traffic lights means Go for cycles only, and they can be enforced via CCTV and numberplate recognition.
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spindrift

Re: First Superhighway Fatality.
« Reply #165 on: 13 December, 2011, 12:18:22 pm »
It's a great shame Highway 2012 was scrubbed:

http://road.cc/content/news/40566-cycle-superhighway-olympic-site-hold-until-after-2012

Blame the cyclist-hating Robin "Bastard" Wales for that.


rr

Re: First Superhighway Fatality.
« Reply #166 on: 13 December, 2011, 01:37:05 pm »
The big issue with bow roundabout is the local geography. I lived near Langdon park for several years and never needed to walk through the roundabout or indeed cycle around it. If i was going shopping i would use the underpasses under the a12 to get to tesco or walk to crisp street or other local shops. If you are going any further it is quite a long way and you drive or use the public transport.
If i cycled anywhere i would use back streets, various towpaths and the greenway.
The problem is that the a12 and the river lee block east/west long distance traffic. The area immediately east of the.roundabout has until the recent Olympic development been a waste land where you didn't want to stop. The blackwall tunnels carry an unusual amount of long distance traffic for such an urban setting.
I think much of the problem with bow roundabout that it feels like a motorway junction squeezed into an urban setting. Perhaps part of the solution is to make the roundabout seem part of the town and less motorwayish maybe public art or flowers?


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