Author Topic: TdeF 2013  (Read 55715 times)

Toady

Re: TdeF 2013
« Reply #650 on: 23 July, 2013, 12:33:47 pm »
Froome sounds as British as some British born & raised pro riders who've spent years on the circuit in France, & I've never heard anyone question their nationality. He sounds at least as British as Virginia Wade. He doesn't sound like a South African, he sounds like what he is: someone who lived there long enough to have his accent influenced.

I've heard British actors speaking in stronger US accents after years living over there, without any questions being raised.
Not that it matters ... but has Froome ever lived in Britain? 

I know he lives in Monaco now and grew up in Kenya and RSA.  Memory is hazy ... were Barloworld South African or British?  I have vague memories of both.  So he may have spent a bit of time in Britain when he was with them - but probably on the European circuit most of the time.  So I'm guessing he's only visited Britain, but never resided.  If that guess is right, one wouldn't really expect him to sound particularly British. 

People are very mobile these days, and athletes more so than most.  If he has the qualification, then best of luck to him for furthering his career whichever way suits him.  It's not done Kevin Pietersen any harm!

Re: TdeF 2013
« Reply #651 on: 23 July, 2013, 12:37:05 pm »
The composition of the peloton is interesting in class terms. Most riders are from from rural backgrounds, and cycling is way better paid than any alternative occupation, but is very unstable. If we look at what has happened in football we see a nurturing of talent in the Africa and South America. That lowers the requirement for local players, and pushes down wages, a neo-liberal agenda.
In the English-speaking world there more a tradition of middle-class cycling, and that's reflected in  Sky's Jaguar team cars.
Sky can be seen as a physical manifestation of globalisation, sponsored by Murdoch, and driving around in Indian-owned luxury cars. We can contrast this with the old guard, such as Voigt, who was brought up in the DDR.

In addition to this class issue we see the Tour won by a colonist, a man born in an African country but with a British passport. That has resonances with the Algerian-born pieds-noir of Southern France. What presents itself as racial prejudice also has other dimensions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pied-Noir

There's a degree of happiness in our house, as Heather's grandfather had a sisal plantation in Kenya, so it's the African country of choice.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: TdeF 2013
« Reply #652 on: 23 July, 2013, 01:12:49 pm »
What presents itself as racial prejudice also has other dimensions.

Yes, it's clearly at least as much about class as race.

"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: TdeF 2013
« Reply #653 on: 23 July, 2013, 01:13:46 pm »
Memory is hazy ... were Barloworld South African or British?

South African sponsor, originally Italian registered, later British registered, not that it means anything. Geraint Thomas also rode for Barloworld at the same time as Froome, don't forget.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

LEE

Re: TdeF 2013
« Reply #654 on: 23 July, 2013, 01:31:48 pm »
As I see it, Indurain just got on with it, doing what everyone else did, & doing it pretty quietly. Armstrong made a big thing about being clean, & viciously bullied anyone who challenged it, while leading the pack in drug use.

I think Indurain would probably have won just as much if everyone had been drug-free - only a little slower.

So there's different levels of cheating based on how you go about doing it?

Sorry but I can't agree with you.  Armstrong didn't make a big thing about being clean, he just got asked the question a million times more than anyone else.  Therefore he lied more and the hole he dug got deeper and deeper.  I expect he'd have preferred just to get on with it quietly. I don't remember anyone admitting to doping when first asked by the press.

I expect that, if Indurain had been asked a million times, he'd have lied a million times also.

Also Lance was no slouch on a bike and was competing with other dopers, so he may also have won several TDFs in a clean peloton.  We'll never know...that's the real shame of what the drugs cheats did, clean riders losing any chance to prove themselves.

Lance was never likeable but likeability shouldn't be a factor in this.  Known dopers shouldn't be included in any celebrations of the sport (unless they are paraded around in the "Car of Shame").

Re: TdeF 2013
« Reply #655 on: 23 July, 2013, 01:35:32 pm »
Armstrong didn't make a big thing about being clean, he just got asked the question a million times more than anyone else.

Ha! Good one!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIl5RxhLZ5U
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: TdeF 2013
« Reply #656 on: 23 July, 2013, 01:37:55 pm »
I think it's teh way Lance bullied and tried to destroy everyone who even hinted at him doping that really pisses people off.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

LEE

Re: TdeF 2013
« Reply #657 on: 23 July, 2013, 01:38:31 pm »
Armstrong didn't make a big thing about being clean, he just got asked the question a million times more than anyone else.

Ha! Good one!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIl5RxhLZ5U

That's a NIKE advert. 

I assume NIKE came to him with a gazillion dollars to make their commercial and he lied to them about doping.

I get it that Lance lied but not that he is in some way special in lying to the media and sponsors about it.

You think Indurain wouldn't have made the same commercial for the same money?

I'm sure most sponsors ask the question "before we pay you...you aren't doping are you?"

LEE

Re: TdeF 2013
« Reply #658 on: 23 July, 2013, 01:41:04 pm »
I think it's teh way Lance bullied and tried to destroy everyone who even hinted at him doping that really pisses people off.

Yes, he is a particularly nasty bloke it seems.

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: TdeF 2013
« Reply #659 on: 23 July, 2013, 01:41:15 pm »
I hope that cycling will soon have the confidence in its cleanliness and the strength of character to deny the old guard of dopers any place in its places of privilege. 'Big Mig' may be hanging on as a kind if national (or sport) treasure for now, but it's time these dinosaurs left the stage to the new breed of clean riders.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: TdeF 2013
« Reply #660 on: 23 July, 2013, 01:45:15 pm »
The problem is, how are you going to load up one of your parade vehicles with (or have your trophies/jerseys presented by) CLEAN champions-past??
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: TdeF 2013
« Reply #661 on: 23 July, 2013, 01:46:34 pm »
Riders are still getting popped for doping and the system and administrators that allowed/ encouraged doping are still in place. There is optimism and naivety displayed in saying that the current riders are clean but which component is greater.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: TdeF 2013
« Reply #662 on: 23 July, 2013, 01:56:18 pm »
Armstrong didn't make a big thing about being clean, he just got asked the question a million times more than anyone else.

Ha! Good one!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIl5RxhLZ5U

That's a NIKE advert. 

I assume NIKE came to him with a gazillion dollars to make their commercial and he lied to them about doping.

I get it that Lance lied but not that he is in some way special in lying to the media and sponsors about it.

That's the point, it's not that Lance just lied (as did many of the other dopers). Lance went out of his way to claim he was clean rather than just respond to questions. Suing people for libel, the comments in his books, etc. The NIKE advert is yet another example of it.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: TdeF 2013
« Reply #663 on: 23 July, 2013, 02:04:20 pm »
Even before the libel cases, I bet Lance was asked the question more often than Big Mig.
Or rather I would if there was any hope of proving it either way ...

I don't really see how protesting your innocence makes you more (or less) of a cheat. Trying to compare two wrongs seems pointless.

If Wiggo and Froome are both caught out in a 2017 investigation, which one will we consider the "worst cheat"?!? Wiggo cos he called the anon accusers cunts?
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: TdeF 2013
« Reply #664 on: 23 July, 2013, 02:07:57 pm »
There are shades of grey for most people.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: TdeF 2013
« Reply #665 on: 23 July, 2013, 02:32:18 pm »
50, so I'm told, just don't beat yourself up over the exact number

Dibdib

  • Fat'n'slow
Re: TdeF 2013
« Reply #666 on: 23 July, 2013, 02:35:01 pm »
Yeah you're supposed to get someone else to do it to you.

Re: TdeF 2013
« Reply #667 on: 23 July, 2013, 02:44:10 pm »
Even before the libel cases, I bet Lance was asked the question more often than Big Mig.
Or rather I would if there was any hope of proving it either way ...

I don't really see how protesting your innocence makes you more (or less) of a cheat. Trying to compare two wrongs seems pointless.

If Wiggo and Froome are both caught out in a 2017 investigation, which one will we consider the "worst cheat"?!? Wiggo cos he called the anon accusers cunts?
Yes.

Ask anyone who is the worst: the adulterous politician who does not take a public stance on morality, or the one who makes it a central part of his platform, constantly presenting himself as a loyal husband. I think you know the answer. Variant on the same theme.

As said, Lance bullied mercilessly & viciously. He didn't just protest his innocence. He invented an entire back story about himself as the most tested cyclist, hundreds of tests which he'd never failed, etc., & harassed those who (accurately) said that his claims (numbers of tests, etc) were exaggerated, at best. He launched verbal attacks on people who said anything publicly which didn't accord with his carefully constructed official persona (much now proven to be true), & sued those who published. Those things also make a difference.

As I see it, Indurain conformed to the culture of his time. I won't defend that, but I do distinguish between it & what I understand Armstrong did.
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

Re: TdeF 2013
« Reply #668 on: 23 July, 2013, 02:59:32 pm »
Someone upthread mentioned Sky's having luxury team cars (Jag). We should be grateful that the team wasn't brought into being in the 70s.* Imagine sending a team to the Tour backed up by Morris Marinas or Austin Maxis   :facepalm:


*For the peduntz, yes I know Sky didn't exist then.
Working my way up to inferior.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: TdeF 2013
« Reply #669 on: 23 July, 2013, 03:06:08 pm »
@Bledlow:
I would dispute one part of your argument:
Lance never had a 'platform', or if he did it was based on winning lots of TdeFs.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: TdeF 2013
« Reply #670 on: 23 July, 2013, 03:09:48 pm »
Someone upthread mentioned Sky's having luxury team cars (Jag). We should be grateful that the team wasn't brought into being in the 70s.* Imagine sending a team to the Tour backed up by Morris Marinas or Austin Maxis   :facepalm:


*For the peduntz, yes I know Sky didn't exist then.

The ANC Halfords team of the 80s seem to have had Maestros, Montegos and a Sherpa van.



http://wheelbike.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/book-review-wide-eyed-and-legless.html

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: TdeF 2013
« Reply #671 on: 23 July, 2013, 03:16:09 pm »
They were originally ANC-Freight-Rover.
Getting there...

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: TdeF 2013
« Reply #672 on: 23 July, 2013, 03:56:02 pm »
Someone upthread mentioned Sky's having luxury team cars (Jag). We should be grateful that the team wasn't brought into being in the 70s.* Imagine sending a team to the Tour backed up by Morris Marinas or Austin Maxis   :facepalm:


*For the peduntz, yes I know Sky didn't exist then

Yes, but Jaguar did. An XJ12 would have been a cool team car!

Dibdib

  • Fat'n'slow
Re: TdeF 2013
« Reply #673 on: 23 July, 2013, 04:53:22 pm »
After their potentially critical mechanical this year it'll be interesting to see whether, despite Sir Dave of Brailsford's "marginal gains" ethos, he allows the team to use the Jags next year when Skoda have been advertising that they've never had a car break down in the TdF.

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: TdeF 2013
« Reply #674 on: 23 July, 2013, 05:07:56 pm »
Apparently it was a fridge unit leaking and short circuiting the car. They need a better aftermarket sparky.
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes