I love trains

[Wowbagger]

It's zero-rated. So you can have one-seventh of the tax back that you didn't pay on your last journey. So, Nutty, you are getting a real bargain! You wouldn't get that if you drove or rode your motor bike.

HM Revenue & Customs: Introduction to VAT

[simonp]

Aye up!!!


I just remembered that I did the same journey on the 19th Nov.  For that journey I paid £22.10

Today I was charged... £22.10


What happened to that VAT reduction?   Have I been ripped off?

Nope.

TaxationWeb Ltd • VAT on train fares : VAT

[nuttycyclist]

Ta.

But zero rated VAT they say?   So that £22.10 for an hours claustrophobic standing whilst being thrown roughly around was all "fare".  I have indeed been ripped off - I'd have expected the fare to have been bulked out by tax

[Martin]

Nutty; what was your start/end point and time of arrival in London; do you own a car and if so what type? ( I assume that the motorbike journey to the same destination is not one you would have made on this occasion). It's only fair that we compare your (less than ideal) train journey to that which you would have made without the train  (for the purpose of this comparison I'll ignore any costs associated with your keeping a car if you indeed do)

[nuttycyclist]

Southend <-> near Liverpool street.


I have a motorbike.  On the motorbike it is 45 minutes door to door and costs me £5.83 total in petrol for the round trip.  Every time I have taken the bike in the past I have phoned beforehand and the security guards have found a quiet corner of the car park for me to squeeze into.


On the train it takes me
8 minutes to cycle to the station.
5 minutes to queue for a ticket.
20 minutes sitting on a platform waiting for a delayed train.
50 minutes on the train.
15 minutes cycle.
A total time of 01:38 and for this pleasure I pay £22.10




But at least it's not as good as when I go to Bristol.  That's 4 hours on the train (+ cycling at either end) and £135, whereas the bike is just over 3 hours (one way) and £28 petrol (return)

[Martin]

Daily return to London Bridge = 5*£7.50 = £37.50
Weekly travelcard Zones 1-5 = £41.40

Eh?  So, even if I commute all week by train, unless I take a train at the weekend as well, I'm better off buying a ticket every day.  Well done, Southern!

what's a weekly Southern rail only season (yes they do exist) to London Bridge cost? I would guess about £22.50 based on the £7.50 daily fare.

Travelcards cost much more than straight rail season tickets; if you don't use the bus and tube you don't have to pay for it (at least that's the case out side Borisland; it was when I lived in Zone 6 10 yrs ago)

[Jaded]

But at least it's not as good as when I go to Bristol.  That's 4 hours on the train (+ cycling at either end) and £135, whereas the bike is just over 3 hours (one way) and £28 petrol (return)

I guess someone lends you the bike for free?

[nuttycyclist]

I've already got the bike sitting in the garage, and so am paying all the costs irrespective of whether I use it or not.  Inurance + Tax + MOT etc, and when it comes to a service that's pretty much a set fee irrespective of mileage covered - and will actually cost me more in stuffed battery and stiff pivots if the bike has covered zero miles since the previous service.

Over the years the only "consumables" other than petrol and the ones always on a service (oil/brake fluid/etc) have been tyres and brake pads - and when you break a tyre cost down over 15,000-20,000 miles it's practically negligible.

Edit:  assuming my most excessive wear, I've just calculated tyre cost at £3.96 for the return Bristol trip.  This bumps the total price up to £31.96, which is 23.4% of train fare.  However tyre wear is got on the twisty country roads, not sitting at a steady 70mph on a motorway so £3.96 really is a stupidly high inflated price.

[Martin]

well if it costs you £5.83 it will cost twice as much by car; plus the congestion charge and parking of course; and how long would the journey take?

Most commuters don't pay £22.10; they have season tickets and probably pay about half that on any one day. Ergo they pay for their journeys even when they are on holiday or off sick; they also pay for the trains track and stations to be serviced, the live wire to be electrified, and the staff to run the trains etc etc. If we had a true Pay as you Go railway you'd pay a lot more.

[nuttycyclist]

Commuter Season ticket - Allowing for annual leave, plus 10 days out of the office for working elsewhere, and a handful of days sick, it's £16.50 per day whether you travel or not.

Yes that's £4.40 cheaper per day... but any day you don't travel to work for any reason you've still paid.    If I was foolish enough to work in London it's still be bike each day due to quicker time and lower price (by two thirds).


But my gripe here isn't the money but the fact that for my money I'm expected to have a slower journey whilst standing crushed amongst other passengers with my face pressed against the window making a comedy effect.

[Wowbagger]

How do you find train travel when you are abroad, Nutty?

[Regulator]

How do you find train travel when you are abroad, Nutty?

French trains are wonderful!  Wouldn't you agree, Nutty?



 

[mike]

bargain.  30 quid from here, including five pounds for parking, for a 45 minute journey.

and I have to get the 6.30 train to be sure of getting a seat. 

[David Martin]

But at least it's not as good as when I go to Bristol.  That's 4 hours on the train (+ cycling at either end) and £135, whereas the bike is just over 3 hours (one way) and £28 petrol (return)

Thanks for subsidising my train fare - they certainly saw you coming. I'm heading down to London for a meeting in a couple of weeks time (anyone for breakfast on 19th?) and have just booked my ticket.

£134 return. First Class. Only a few quid more than the standard fare, I get coffee, wifi, no numpty drivers and can get stuff done whilst I travel.

Drive? Now there is an option. I would need to hire a car (don't have a spare one sitting around on the off chance), and it would take me a good deal longer than 6 hours. At 50 mpg it would cost about 50 quid in fuel each way.

I reckon that as long as the train is less than at least 300 quid the opportunity cost is better to travel by train than driving myself.

..d

[токамак]

A few weeks ago I booked a return from London to Edinburgh for the weekend before Christmas (actually travelling up on the Saturday and returning the following Tuesday) - £30.50! I used the National Rail Enquires booking service. In the past I've had to abandon the same journey because there were no trains on the day (derailment or something).

Last night I waited an hour in the freezing cold for a bus from Braintree to Chelmsford, two that were scheduled just didn't turn up and the one that did was 15 minutes late.

Public transport in this country can be a bit of a lottery.

[clarion]

Now I know I'll be using the train for a while, I thought I'd buy a week's travelcard to save money.

Daily return to London Bridge = 5*£7.50 = £37.50
Weekly travelcard Zones 1-5 = £41.40

Eh?  So, even if I commute all week by train, unless I take a train at the weekend as well, I'm better off buying a ticket every day.  Well done, Southern!

I very much doubt you are comparing like with like there..

Clarion

As Valiant and Rob have said, your comparison is wrong. You should be able to get a 7 day season ticket Carshalton to London Bridge, without the zone 1-5 bit, for less. £30.50 in fact.

That's exactly right.  But you do have to engage the woman behind the window in a full-on interrogation session up to, but not including, waterboarding, before she admits that such an option exists. 

Maybe next week...

[Martin]

But my gripe here isn't the money but the fact that for my money I'm expected to have a slower journey whilst standing crushed amongst other passengers with my face pressed against the window making a comedy effect.

yes that's what I thought; in which case it's not the railway's fault it's all those other passengers, perhaps they should the fares up even higher to discourage them from wanting to travel before 0900? 

still don't understand why your fare is £22.10; according to C2C it should be;

From Station

Southend Central
 £13.80 Anytime Day Return
 £63.70 Weekly Season Ticket
 £244.70 Monthly Season Ticket
 £2,548.00 Annual Season Ticket
 £9.80 Annual Season Ticket Daily Value
 

[Jaded]

Nutty, you should move to nearer to work. There's lots of people desperately trying to sell their houses. Should be a doddle.

[Wowbagger]

Stupidly, it costs the same to travel to London from Southend Victoria at peak times as it does from Rayleigh, which is 4 stations closer. Nutty is right in that it is £22.10

OTOH if he went from Benfleet it would cost him £13.00. Whereas Nutty lives about a mile from Rayleigh station, he lives just over 2 miles from Benfleet. This would take him into Fenchurch Street rather than Liverpool Street. He would spend a few minutes' less time on the train as well. 

That can't be bad, Nutty: a 2 mile Brompton ride saves you over £9! Aren't our railways wonderful?

Sorry

Edit: That "Sorry" was generated by the National Rail Enquiries site! 

[mrcharly-YHT]

That's exactly right.  But you do have to engage the woman behind the window in a full-on interrogation session up to, but not including, waterboarding, before she admits that such an option exists. 

Maybe next week...

That just makes a comedy sketch come to mind.

Masked men, armed with AK74s, kick open the doors to the ticket office, shoot out the cashier windows, take a cashier hostage, holding gun to head; then demand that she sells them a season ticket.

Cue panic buttons being pressed, SAS abseiling in, etc.

[nuttycyclist]

Indeed Benfleet is cheaper on the wallet - but much less convenient.  Door to door journey is much longer (so the time saved on the train is outweighed by the time spent cycling - and on the return journey I have to ride of the Alps de Benfleet).

In London the journey is also longer, in fact I'd have to cycle past Liverpool Street station.


But these practical reasons aren't why I chose that line.  I am well acquainted with Benfleet Station car park and environment.  I have lost count of the number of hours I have sat there waiting for Mrs Nutty's delayed train to arrive so I can give her a lift home.  I also know the route from Benfleet station to Laindon quite well, thanks to having had to drive there to collect Mrs Nutty hours after the train should have arrived in Benfleet.


I did post a thread on here from the last time I used that line - but can't find it at the moment.

[clarion]

I feel such pangs of jealousy as I arrive at London Bridge every morning, and see the folk unfurling their Dahons, Brommies and various other folding bike-styled devices, and hopping on to scoot off to their workplaces.

I don't mind walking - really I don't.  But - oh - how I would love to be awheel!

[Jaded]

Stupidly, it costs the same to travel to London from Southend Victoria at peak times as it does from Rayleigh, which is 4 stations closer.

Market forces. Too many people thinking they can live in Southend and work in London. 

[citoyen]

Market forces

Hmph. Call me a socialist if you like but I admit to suffering from the quaint delusion that public transport should be run as a public service.

d.

[Jaded]

Yes, I agree, however it is like roads. Put the services in and people use them. Put on more trains and people use them. We moan about people doing this on the M25, but complain when we can't do it on the railways.

We have a society that expects way more now than it did 50 years ago. We sot of expect that if we are to use public transport there should be an appropriate service to take us from home to work and back when we want in the conditions we lay down.