Author Topic: Chainring wear  (Read 2839 times)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Chainring wear
« on: 16 May, 2019, 04:49:24 pm »

The big ring on my bike is currently looking like:



How do I decide it's time to replace?

If I replace the big ring. Should I also replace the inner ring, even tho it's not as worn?

Thanks

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Chainring wear
« Reply #1 on: 16 May, 2019, 04:56:06 pm »
Yes replace, it's dangerous. No need to replace inner.  Its fucked because you've either been massively cross chaining and/or riding with worn out chain....in which case you'll probably need a new cassette and chain too.

Moral of the story? Get a chain checking tool and use it regularly

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Chainring wear
« Reply #2 on: 16 May, 2019, 05:32:25 pm »
Yes replace, it's dangerous. No need to replace inner.  Its fucked because you've either been massively cross chaining and/or riding with worn out chain....in which case you'll probably need a new cassette and chain too.

Moral of the story? Get a chain checking tool and use it regularly

I have one, I check regularly, It's currently at >0.75%.

Tho I've probably cross chained a fair bit... It's done about 16Mm.

I've ordered a new one. I ordered a new inner ring too, as it's only €7. Useful to have ready.

J

--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Chainring wear
« Reply #3 on: 16 May, 2019, 05:35:53 pm »
Use the inner a ring a bit more then  ;D

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Chainring wear
« Reply #4 on: 16 May, 2019, 05:51:59 pm »
it would last twice as long if it wasn't so dirty! :o
keeping the chain on with a 0.7+ % stretch accelerates the wear of cassettes and chainrings quite a bit too.
add to it the size of it (small) and cross-chaining, so no wonder it did not last that long. good thing is they are cheap and easy to replace.

Re: Chainring wear
« Reply #5 on: 16 May, 2019, 06:25:38 pm »
there's quite a lot of metal missing from the side of each tooth as well as from the tooth profile. You'll see better when you get the new chainrings, but some of the teeth are always shorter than the others to make so-called 'shift gates' on the big ring. Clumsy shifting can knock the tops off the teeth, and running with a worn chain tends to make for hooked teeth.

The metal missing from the sides of the teeth has been removed by cross-chaining; a dirty chain won't have helped.   Bottom level shimano chainrings are pretty soft but posher ones (and some aftermarket ones) are made in a much harder material and may last much longer.

FWIW the chainline you get on a MTB 10s double on a 135mm rear hub is far from good really.  With a 9s cassette on a 135mm hub the middle of the cassette is at a chainline of ~45mm. With a 10s cassette it is slightly to the left of that (because of the dished #1 sprocket), but the chainline of a MTB  chainset is ~50mm.  This means that the big ring is in line with the third or fourth smallest sprocket, and if you use the big ring and the bigger sprockets, it is doing thoroughly horrid things to the transmission. 

if you can improve the chainline of the chainset or arrange the gears so that you favour those ratios with a good chainline, you may find that your transmission parts last longer.

cheers

Re: Chainring wear
« Reply #6 on: 16 May, 2019, 06:39:57 pm »
When the Ultegra  chainset on my Ti bike failed catastrophically after something like 12,000 miles ( I used to be a fanatical chain cleaner / luber - ultrasonic tank etc) it worked out cheaper to replace the  chainset & BB, than replacing just the rings.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Chainring wear
« Reply #7 on: 16 May, 2019, 07:09:35 pm »
it would last twice as long if it wasn't so dirty! :o

I cleaned the whole drive train before RatN, then did 1900km on it without any cleaning, and just adding lube. I normally keep the drive train a bit cleaner...

Quote
keeping the chain on with a 0.7+ % stretch accelerates the wear of cassettes and chainrings quite a bit too.

I've been replacing the chain at 0.5%, my chain checker is currently showing wear as not yet at 0.75%.

Quote
add to it the size of it (small) and cross-chaining, so no wonder it did not last that long. good thing is they are cheap and easy to replace.

Yeah, it's €18 for a new ring. Which is cheap enough.

Brucey's comment on chain line has me thinking, I'm running a tiagra 10 speed cassette, on a 135mm hub, and a MTB chainset and BB. I'm guessing that's basically a right mess of a chain line...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Chainring wear
« Reply #8 on: 17 May, 2019, 12:51:29 am »
it is possible (with difficulty) to design a frameset that will take wide-ish road tyres and still allows you to use a 'road' chainset and chainline. But most such OTP framesets that accept wide tyres have chainstays that are positioned so that they will interfere with a classic 'road' chainset. The clearance on any given frameset is affected by  both the chainline and the chainring size.

I have found that if you talk much about the benefits of a good chainline in the most used gears these days you are liable to dismissed as an old fart; it doesn't play well with the 'chains as thin as spaghetti at any angle' and '1x' ethos that prevails amongst the more, uh, 'fashion conscious'.  But if you have the slightest concern with real efficiency you should give it more mind than most folk do.   

If you do the sums it turns out that, for most riders, to make the transmission 0.5% more efficient even if it means the bike is about 0.5kg heavier is still a 'win' even if you are climbing most road grade hills; the gradient needs to be very steep indeed before it the extra weight is a significant detriment.

Easily avoidable losses in derailleur transmissions stem from three main sources

1) pulleys (you can save 1-2W in some cases)
2) chordal losses
3) cross-chaining losses


Chordal losses arise whenever the chain links have to articulate more than they might otherwise. Using a smaller chain pitch reduces chordal losses (at any given speocket diameter) but this isn't a practical option; you are stuck with 1/2" pitch chain. The practical option is simply to run as large chainrings and sprockets as possible for any given gear ratio.  Thus running 30/15 gives the same gear ratio as 50/25 but (at the same chainline) the latter is liable to be 1-2% more efficient.

Cross-chaining losses are of comparable magnitude.  Thus if you have a choice of a small-small combination with a good chainline, and a big-big combination with the same gear ratio but a bad chainline, quite often the efficiency is about the same.

The trick is to ensure that the gears you use most have the best combinations of chainline and sprocket size.  In practice this means, (on the road riding endurance events) that there are two regimes that are worth concentrating on;

a) flat roads and
b) graded climbs

By graded climbs I mean those found on well-built roads; these are usually between 5 and 7% in most parts of europe and only become steeper than this if it is unavoidable or the route is unlikely ever to be/have been used by heavy vehicles of any kind.  If you analyse your riding you will most likely find that you spend about three quarters of the time on the bike using those kinds of gears.

This will vary from rider to rider but it might boil down to (say) having a gear of about 70" for the flat and another about 30" for the climbs   If you choose well you can make these gears ~1% more efficient and as a bonus the transmission parts may last longer too.  In most cases I would choose to not have a very high top gear ratio if this gave me better efficiency on average; for example (except in massed start racing)  an 11T sprocket is basically a waste of time in my book; it is inherently lossy in use, you might only use that gear ratio when going downhill (when you might be better off saving energy) and it being there pushes all the other sprockets to the left, buggering up the chainline quite unnecessarily.

For example some years ago I built a bike that was basically road bike with a 'bail out' third chainring, so a 13-28T cassette and a 30-42-52 chainset.  This (because of the parts chosen) gave a good chainline on 52/19 and 52/17 for the flat and also a pretty good chainline on 30/24 and 30/28 for the steep climbs. And of course plenty inbetween.  The bike didn't have to accept fat tyres so I was able to make the chainline on the middle ring not much different to the inner ring on a road double; this wasn't without consequence; I almost tore my hair out getting a FD to work OK on the small chainring. But the net effect was that the bike's gearing suited me very well and under most conditions I wasn't forced to use a lossy gear.

cheers

Re: Chainring wear
« Reply #9 on: 19 May, 2019, 01:52:25 pm »
All very interesting, I wish I could find a 13-27 10 speed cassette. Perhaps others can ..

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Chainring wear
« Reply #10 on: 19 May, 2019, 06:44:39 pm »
My dad's always told me to replace a chain as soon as you see it's gone past 1.0. a new planet X chain is an awful lot cheaper than a new cassette, freehub, chainring set etc...
YACF touring/audax bargain basement:
https://bit.ly/2Xg8pRD



Ban cars.

Re: Chainring wear
« Reply #11 on: 19 May, 2019, 07:10:48 pm »
All very interesting, I wish I could find a 13-27 10 speed cassette. Perhaps others can ..

Don't Miche do something close to that?
(I haven't used them, just eyeing up bits for a bike that i might build.)

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Chainring wear
« Reply #12 on: 19 May, 2019, 07:17:17 pm »
I think Miche do or used to do a build-your-own cassette service?
Something like this: https://www.probikeshop.com/en/gb/miche-cassette-10s-shimano/71241.html
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Chainring wear
« Reply #13 on: 19 May, 2019, 07:20:12 pm »
I think Miche do or used to do a build-your-own cassette service?

They do, but finding someone selling them is hard. There was one company who stopped selling them as the weird combinations people kept buying had really shit performance and it wasn't worth the hassle. I think this came up in one of my gear rant threads...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

jiberjaber

  • ... Fancy Pants \o/ ...
  • ACME S&M^2
Re: Chainring wear
« Reply #14 on: 19 May, 2019, 08:36:29 pm »
I think Miche do or used to do a build-your-own cassette service?

They do, but finding someone selling them is hard. There was one company who stopped selling them as the weird combinations people kept buying had really shit performance and it wasn't worth the hassle. I think this came up in one of my gear rant threads...

J

Malcolm @ cycle clinic

https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/products/miche-11-speed-for-shimano-individual-cassette-sprockets

Regards,

Joergen

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Chainring wear
« Reply #15 on: 19 May, 2019, 08:41:06 pm »
I think QG wants 10-speed though.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Torslanda

  • Professional Gobshite
  • Just a tart for retro kit . . .
    • John's Bikes
Re: Chainring wear
« Reply #16 on: 19 May, 2019, 09:00:06 pm »
Those 10 speed rings appear to be made of cheese but the biggest sing you have there is the shite that's adhering to the chainring. Paste, grinding, Northern Europe, grade #2. It eats metal.

Keep it clean, don't let the gunge build up and they last a bit longer...
VELOMANCER

Well that's the more blunt way of putting it but as usual he's dead right.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Chainring wear
« Reply #17 on: 19 May, 2019, 09:03:40 pm »
Those 10 speed rings appear to be made of cheese but the biggest sing you have there is the shite that's adhering to the chainring. Paste, grinding, Northern Europe, grade #2. It eats metal.

Keep it clean, don't let the gunge build up and they last a bit longer...

Yeah, I do try to keep it cleaner, that photo is after RatN, I didn't clean the drive train for the whole 1900km. Just adding more lube after each day of rain. Even then I did the last 200k with it pretty dry.

New chain rings are €18. So it's not a major issue.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

jiberjaber

  • ... Fancy Pants \o/ ...
  • ACME S&M^2
Re: Chainring wear
« Reply #18 on: 19 May, 2019, 09:06:47 pm »
I think QG wants 10-speed though.

Yep - I think she could do worse than to give Malcolm a call to see if he can source them
Regards,

Joergen

Re: Chainring wear
« Reply #19 on: 19 May, 2019, 09:38:13 pm »
All very interesting, I wish I could find a 13-27 10 speed cassette. Perhaps others can ..
Is 1T either way really that critical?
14/27 13/26 13/29 12/27 12/28 can you not find something there that would suite you?
I'm running 14/28 9 speed on a triple and the most used gears line up well.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Chainring wear
« Reply #20 on: 01 June, 2019, 08:48:36 pm »


Finally got all the parts together to replace the chain ring. In the end I replaced both, as well as new bolts. The bolts for the inner ring were an utter bitch. I the green thread lock on the original bolts was completely gone, and the stuff on the new ones made getting them on there harder than I expected. Was in fear of cross threading. Think it's gone ok.

Now to install the new brake calipers...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/