High Entry Fees

[eck]

Agree about the attractions of the floors of halls. A way of reducing the other expenses, too.

On that topic, I wonder if I could take a quick opinion poll?
I'm running a weekend of events in June, hiring the local hall and offering overnight on Saturday for those that want to stay over. It's a grand hall, with a cosy carpeted area for sleeping, anna shower an' everyfink. Last year, we ran at a loss and, given that the overnight hire of the hall is by far the biggest expense, I was thinking this year of making a specific separate charge for B&B.

The entry fees for the events will be £8 for the Saturday 300, £4 for the 160k, then £5 for the Sunday 200 and £4 for the 100.
What would you see as a reasonable add-on for overnight? I was thinking about £3- £4?

[MSeries]

What would you see as a reasonable add-on for overnight? I was thinking about £3- £4?

I think £5 would be reasonable, it's what Tom charged for the sleepover before Ower The Edge

[tonyh]

What would you see as a reasonable add-on for overnight? I was thinking about £3- £4?

A veritable bargain! (Riders might lose sleep worrying about whether you would cover your expenses.)

[hellymedic]

What would you see as a reasonable add-on for overnight? I was thinking about £3- £4?

I think £5 would be reasonable, it's what Tom charged for the sleepover before Ower The Edge

+ another

[frere yacker]

What would you see as a reasonable add-on for overnight? I was thinking about £3- £4?

I think £5 would be reasonable, it's what Tom charged for the sleepover before Ower The Edge

+ another

Surely the formula is "Cost of hiring hall overnight divided by number you expect to sleep there"?

From memory, Tom got about 20 people sleeping overnight.  So he probably covered his costs, just.

[MSeries]

Perhaps Tom calculated the cost based on the number who turned up on the Friday. 

[richie]

£5 - £8 is not an unreasonable entry fee these days.

Your customers will decide that.

I appreciate your points about costs though.

At the risk of offending some people I feel that this conversation is symptomatic of the aging demograph of AUK members. Its 2008 not 1978.
£5-£8 in this day and age (recession permitting...) should be considered pocket-money.

Take the afore-mentioned Glamorgan Gloom for example.  Entry fee of £6.50 which some people are intimating is expensive. Cost of getting to the start for myself was £5.30 to cross the Severn Bridge plus a couple of gallons petrol.  Add £3.00 for an (optional) pint of shandy at the end and the actual entry cost becomes relatively insignificant compared to the overall spend.

Anyway in my opinion the Glamorgan Gloom was by far the best 100 I've done in a few years.  Perhaps due to the extra-friendly small field who entered or mainly due to the superb efforts of the organizer. (No doubt many more were put off by the 'cost'.....)

[eck]

Surely the formula is "Cost of hiring hall overnight divided by number you expect to sleep there"?

Not quite as simple as that but, obviously, that's the most important factor in the equation. We will be booking the hall from mid afternoon through to 9am. The overnight hourly charge kicks in at 10pm, by which time there will still be a fair number of Snow Roads finishers using the hall who aren't staying over.
I didn't want to increase entry fee for everyone with the result that those not staying overnight were effectively subsidising those who were.

[frere yacker]

Surely the formula is "Cost of hiring hall overnight divided by number you expect to sleep there"?

Not quite as simple as that but, obviously, that's the most important factor in the equation. We will be booking the hall from mid afternoon through to 9am. The overnight hourly charge kicks in at 10pm, by which time there will still be a fair number of Snow Roads finishers using the hall who aren't staying over.
I didn't want to increase entry fee for everyone with the result that those not staying overnight were effectively subsidising those who were.

A possibility.  Have a donations jar with a minimum suggested donation (or an explanation that you need to raise £x to cover the cost of the hall).  You'll be surprised at how effective this can be for raising money (it does two things - most people tend to err on the side of being generous and also more people will choose to stay overnight if there is no upfront commitment).

[Manotea]

I've bumped the Willy Warmer/Little Willy from £5 to £6 this year, partly due to an increase in hall fees but mostly because it includes "Enter On-Line" costs (Paypal, stamps and stationery).  Rather than surcharge on-line entry, I opted not to discount snail mail. I'm generally short on manpower so want to encourage on-line entry, which should also reduce requests for entry on the line. I guess I'll find out how that works out in January.

I've been a bit alarmed by audaxing costs in the past, never for cost of entry but for spend at commercial controls, especially on longer/ harder rides when its all about survivial. Entering a garage/cafe in a semi comatose state its real easy to spend more than the cost of event entry on a cup of coffee and a sandwich, and maybe a big packet of crisps and a choccy bar, some water, etc. Multiply that several times and it adds up, overshadowing the cost of entry.*

I've planning on becoming a 'cereal audaxer [TM]' this year, seeing how far I can get with a saddle bag full of crunchy breakfast cereal (don't worry, I'm not planning on pouring a pint of milk into the saddle bag!).  Perfect for munching on the road with no faffing at controls.  Luke Bream (not of this parish) achieves the same effect by traveling everywhere with a little ruck sack full of what you and I would call Wedding Cake, i.e., rich fruit cake topped off with a thick slab of marzipan and icing sugar. About a zillion calories an ounce and the ultimate morale boost at silly o'clock in the morning.
----------------------

*The day after after a 300km DIY outing I remarked to Mrs Manotea that my total expenditure was ~£8.5 (plus maybe £5 for the Brevet and petrol to the start), which I thought was pretty good considering as I'd been out of the house over 24 hours.

"I didn't realise you spent money on these events", she said...

[hellymedic]

<veering OT>

Wedding/Christmas cake may be abundant and cheap in late December. Lasts for ages...

[Manotea]

Surely the formula is "Cost of hiring hall overnight divided by number you expect to sleep there"?

Not quite as simple as that but, obviously, that's the most important factor in the equation. We will be booking the hall from mid afternoon through to 9am. The overnight hourly charge kicks in at 10pm, by which time there will still be a fair number of Snow Roads finishers using the hall who aren't staying over.
I didn't want to increase entry fee for everyone with the result that those not staying overnight were effectively subsidising those who were.

A possibility.  Have a donations jar with a minimum suggested donation (or an explanation that you need to raise £x to cover the cost of the hall).  You'll be surprised at how effective this can be for raising money (it does two things - most people tend to err on the side of being generous and also more people will choose to stay overnight if there is no upfront commitment).

Last Anfractuous some brave souls slept over at the hall the night before on a 'no mod cons' basis. This worked out fine and was a great hit with the organiser who didn't have to get up at 4:30am to setup the hall. No charge as there was no cost. For some it made the difference to whether they could ride or not, so I was pleased I could help.

[Wowbagger]

Surely the formula is "Cost of hiring hall overnight divided by number you expect to sleep there"?

Not quite as simple as that but, obviously, that's the most important factor in the equation. We will be booking the hall from mid afternoon through to 9am. The overnight hourly charge kicks in at 10pm, by which time there will still be a fair number of Snow Roads finishers using the hall who aren't staying over.
I didn't want to increase entry fee for everyone with the result that those not staying overnight were effectively subsidising those who were.

A possibility.  Have a donations jar with a minimum suggested donation (or an explanation that you need to raise £x to cover the cost of the hall).  You'll be surprised at how effective this can be for raising money (it does two things - most people tend to err on the side of being generous and also more people will choose to stay overnight if there is no upfront commitment).

Last Anfractuous some brave souls slept over at the hall the night before on a 'no mod cons' basis. This worked out fine and was a great hit with the organiser (who didn't have to get up at 4:30am). No charge as there was no cost. If it made the difference to people riding or not, then I was pleased I could help.

It made a huge difference. I had thought about the YH at Jordans and would probably have gone there if the hall had not been open, but that particular little extra was greatly appreciated.

[DanialW]

Agreed. Meaner than  Ebneezer Scrooge on an economy drive.

Danial, I think you were at the Audax UK AGM last year. (I'm sure you were at the Dinner.) Can you remember how one chap reacted when the proposal to raise AUK's annual subscription to a whopping £14? I keep wondering why grown-ups spend hours debating Bank of Toytown sums yet spending realistic amounts on many apects of their flush lifestyles.

I was indeed, but I don't remember the chap.

To be fair, most participants seem happy to pay more for rides where it is clear there is more offered in terms of hospitality.

And perhaps with the looming recession, some sportive riders may come to see the benefits of participating in events where they can get a ride and feed for a few quid.

[DanialW]

And while we're talking of tight-fistedness, I'll not name the participant who sent me two envelope to send brevet cards in, both of which had been reused by said person 5 times or so already.

Recycling is a good thing, but the accompanying letter made it clear said person didn't like to 'waste' money on envelopes. When they're asking you to go find sellotape to reseal their crappy SAEs, I'm tempted to just bosh the cards in and leave them to the mercy of Royal Mail.

[vorsprung]

TBH, £150 is prohibitive for me for LEL. That said, I probably wouldn't enter it if it was half the price, as it's not really my scene.

But - £150 represents a lot for a four day tour. To my mind anyway.

etape du tour this year also costs 150 quid just for entry

let's compare

	LEL	etape
distance	1400km	172km
duration	116 hours ( 5 days-ish )	8 hours?
food	"good food" at 10 controls included	energy gels
accomodation	basic	sleeping considered bad form
entrants	400	5000
mudguards	optional	unlikely
1600m climb?	No	Yes
monument to tom simpson?	No	Yes
"the price"	"I could tour for 3 months for that"	"you just have to do the iconic ventoux stage"
must have accessory	Gortex Coat	Oakleys

[MSeries]

Some good points are raised here about the cost of Audaxing for those of us wanting to achieve high points totals. Entry fee, travel, [accommodation], food. UNIX gurus will understand the square brackets mean optional. Without the use of motorise transport, travel and accommodation changes, train the night before and a B&B ? Train home on a Sunday night ? If you are lucky. It's part of the reason why I have done only DIYs and close to home calendar events in 2008, the other part is the saving in time. The entry fee never put me off any event last year when I had a car, but I still wouldn't pay £8 for a 100 mostly because I don't do many 100s, 2008 being an exception when I needed to get back on the scene and be seen to be back.

[MSeries]

Gamlingay, Thurlby, Lincoln/Washinborough, Thorne, Coxwold, Middleton Tyas, Alston, Canonbie are all visited twice on LEL so that's 16 controls, plus Dalkieth  making it 17. Not sure if food is provided at Lee Valley on completion.

[hellymedic]

If my memory serves me correctly, food at Lee Valley was available from the volunteers at times when the Dining Room was closed.
It's a rather commercial youth hostel...

[MSeries]

Helly, i meant the cost included in the entry fee for LEL. 2005 didn't include food, 2009 does.

[Salvatore]

Not sure if food is provided at Lee Valley on completion.

According to my sources:

All food is included from the first control to arriving back at Lee Valley.
The arrival at Lee Valley is simply a cup of tea and bit of cake to give
the rider enough energy to get back to wherever they are staying. The Youth Hostel does have a cafe open until 5pm each day, but little more than that at the end. Controls (with the exception of Gamlingay), will have snacks and full meals available. Gamlingay on the outward leg is an optional feeding station only and a compulsory control on the way back. On the return leg it will aslo have sandwiches and soup, but not hot meals.

[y lee g]

Eck - £5 is a bargain.  Unless one has a “team bus” in which to sleep at the finish the alternatives would be –

-   a commercial B&B or hotel in Kirrie, one which doesn’t mind a potentially stinky rider and bike arriving at an unspecified time
-   a ride / drive back to the nearest campsite
-   a long drive home for those not lucky enough to live in Angus

As a newbie organiser, I’ve pitched my fees for 2009 at a rate which will minimise the risk of making a loss (which is also part of the rationale for adding a couple of extra shorter rides) and more entrants will simply fund a greater spend per head on food.  An extra charge for staying over in the hall after the 300k will also help meet the extra hall costs for hiring it into Monday morning rather than turfing everybody out at 2am and avoids the cross subsidy inherent in charging all riders the same.

Generally, I have only ever though about the price of audax events while wondering how may organisers actually lose money on events.  Many seem to deliver way beyond the entry fee. 

We should also remember that while cash changes hands in an audax event, it’s not the same as the relationship with a (profit making) commercial organisation and in any event focussing on the entry price alone and how much tea/cake etc one gets in return is missing the point.  There's surely value in the intangible benefits of an audax ride, such as the time that the organiser will have invested on your behalf in establishing a pleasant route for you to enjoy, and more fundamentally having facilitated an opportunity for you to meet up with your friends. 

Looking at entry fees for next year, at the top end of 200k events is the Dave Harris at £10.  I’m sure the organisers could reduce the entry fee by a few quid putting in a couple of info controls rather than the hot food and drinks traditionally on offer but I know which I’d rather have.       

[frankly frankie]

Generally, I have only ever thought about the price of audax events while wondering how may organisers actually lose money on events.  Many seem to deliver way beyond the entry fee.

Depends a bit what you incude in your costs - by any sort of commercial reckoning all Organisers must run at a loss, I think.  Even if you write 'time' down as a zero expense, the rest is still likely to stack up in the red.

I've heard that really big events like Dorset Coast have been known to turn a profit, but I find even that hard to believe - funnily enough the only ones that are genuinely likely to end up plus are the X-rated 'shoestring' type events which often have very low entry fees - but the Org has almost zero outlay.

A lot of talk about halls - when I was a kid our local church hall had as one of its conditions of use - strictly No Dancing (makes you wonder what they built it for) - surely to provide sleep-overs in these places you need licences or H&S certificates and so forth?

[Manotea]

A lot of talk about halls - when I was a kid our local church hall had as one of its conditions of use - strictly No Dancing (makes you wonder what they built it for) - surely to provide sleep-overs in these places you need licences or H&S certificates and so forth?

The person responsible for our hall had a word to the wise (that would be me) to remind me that whilst its OK to bring prepared food (rolls and sandwiches, et al) along to events, preparing said items in the fully equipped kitchen placed at our disposal was strictly verboten...

[eck]

A lot of talk about halls - when I was a kid our local church hall had as one of its conditions of use - strictly No Dancing (makes you wonder what they built it for) - surely to provide sleep-overs in these places you need licences or H&S certificates and so forth?

The person responsible for our hall had a word to the wise (that would be me) to remind me that whilst its OK to bring prepared food (rolls and sandwiches, et al) along to events, preparing said items in the fully equipped kitchen placed at our disposal was strictly verboten...

There was no talk of licences or Health 'n' Safety certificates when we ran our event last year. Much to my relief, the lady who manages the hall didn't bat an eyelid when I explained the sleep-over requirements. We weren't allowed to sell beer, but it was ok to provide it, and we could heat stuff up in the kitchen, just as long as we didn't cook anything. 

Anyway, it worked fine.